Complex junctions sometime just come together but at times, a bit of design fiddling is required. A quick look at the process for creating Middle Junction
There was something mind-blowingly demanding about wiring it up with live frogs!!! Happily, it works brilliantly. Thanks for your comments. I might do a "Day at Middle Junction" vid at some point.
You could achieve a similar effect with two ladders. The original turnout design has two issues: - you don't actually need parallel crossover tracks. Flatten them a single crossover track each way and either use a ladder junction or a double slip when the crossover crosses the blue line. This immediately removes two sets of turnouts from your setup. - The crossovers don't necessarily have to run into each other. The green/yellow to blue junctions could use a double crossover instead. This becomes the lower half of the ladder, and you use two single crossovers to then connect blue to red. However, this actually costs more green/yellow track space (which is what you are short on) while saving blue & red space (which you don't care about as it's the mainline passing through). The most space efficient solution is to take the diagram at 2:00, remove the blue single crossovers, replace the blue/red crossings with double slips, and slide the two crossovers close together right near the green line junction. Interfacing on green/yellow is reduced to a single pair of turnouts, while the entire junction on red is 6 turnouts long (from left-to-right: right turnout (red), double slip (red/blue), right turnout (blue/yellow), left turnout (blue/yellow (or green)), double slip (blue/red), left turnout (red)). Your current design minimises interfacing of the red track at the expense of a long run-around between green and yellow. But it does look very fancy.
It also has the problem that the main line is actually on the diverging line of the double slips. The main line should go straight through any switches.
You would normally never seee any mainline go through the curved side of a point or single slip or double slip or 3way. It would mean the trains having to slow just for that point.
You are right Peter, but this is technically off-stage so I can get away with it. I was going to add scenery to the Middle Junction area but that immediately bought the issue you have raised into view, and that did not sit comfortably with me - especially as I have added trap points etc to make it look right!
Could add a red line loop like the final yellow/green loop if absolutely necessary. The blue would probably be a dive under given the branch line stops a flyover option. Reality sometimes gets in the way.
Hi Barry - That was absolutely mind blowing. Unbelievable as I actually understood what you was on about. I found this update extremely interesting and enjoyable to watch and wow doesn't it look good when its all laid down. Thankyou Barry. Regards Chris
I had always hoped that you would explain middle junction again, it’s such an important aspect of the layout, but one that needs a bit of head space. Best regards
I’ve decided to make this episode the decision making basis for both of my layout entry/exit fiddle yards. I’ll just keep coming back to it until it delivers the same result Thanks again
Basingstoke had a double slip at the east end of the station on the down mainline which had a speed restriction of 65 mph on it, although trains often seemed to ignore that back in the 80's...
Interesting, and I like your vids, but if you were to replace the two double slips in the middle by two points - to straighten the red and blue lines would that be too long overall? Regards Andrew
We could make it a contest! a) 203, b) 97, c) 34, d) 21, e) 12. Winner gets a pat on the back, and a bottle of their favorite over-the-counter headache pain reliever.
Hi, An excellent presentation of a v.good, but by nature complex, but not a complicated track design IMHO. For point motor control do you use a ‘route selection circuit’ to simplify this aspect of operation? It may interest you and others to know that for EACH of the four ‘slipped junctions’ plus for the terminus station throat on my layout I’m using solenoid point motors and controlling each element via a diode matrix linked to a SP four (4) way rotary switch to select the route plus a single N/o push button per element to actuate the selection. A high powered CDU (4700 mF capacitor) for each group of point motors completes the design. I would be very interested to learn the of the control system you use. Best Regards, Tony 🚂
@@yarslowmodelrailway1 I hope that none are where your favourite crossbeams are supporting the baseboard. The reason that I ask is that I have developed a complex crossover design for my layout. I'm be using DCC Concepts ESP with accessories on a separate power bus from the track power bus. I'm even dreaming of a mimic board.
Looks like 9 to me. Which, if you were to use point motors such as the Cobalt Omega with built-in switches, you are looking at around £140+ for motors! Add to that, switches, LEDs etc. It can all get very expensive, very quickly.
There is something very aesthetically pleasing about that junction and watching the trains...
There was something mind-blowingly demanding about wiring it up with live frogs!!! Happily, it works brilliantly. Thanks for your comments. I might do a "Day at Middle Junction" vid at some point.
You could achieve a similar effect with two ladders.
The original turnout design has two issues:
- you don't actually need parallel crossover tracks. Flatten them a single crossover track each way and either use a ladder junction or a double slip when the crossover crosses the blue line. This immediately removes two sets of turnouts from your setup.
- The crossovers don't necessarily have to run into each other. The green/yellow to blue junctions could use a double crossover instead. This becomes the lower half of the ladder, and you use two single crossovers to then connect blue to red. However, this actually costs more green/yellow track space (which is what you are short on) while saving blue & red space (which you don't care about as it's the mainline passing through).
The most space efficient solution is to take the diagram at 2:00, remove the blue single crossovers, replace the blue/red crossings with double slips, and slide the two crossovers close together right near the green line junction. Interfacing on green/yellow is reduced to a single pair of turnouts, while the entire junction on red is 6 turnouts long (from left-to-right: right turnout (red), double slip (red/blue), right turnout (blue/yellow), left turnout (blue/yellow (or green)), double slip (blue/red), left turnout (red)).
Your current design minimises interfacing of the red track at the expense of a long run-around between green and yellow. But it does look very fancy.
It also has the problem that the main line is actually on the diverging line of the double slips. The main line should go straight through any switches.
HI guys - thankfully, this is off-scene so I can get away with an unprototypical formation.
Hi Barry, A fascinating video taking us through the evolution of Middle junction ending up with a very elegant and functional solution.
Thank you
Thank you - much appreciated.
Well thought out, and an elegant final solution.
Thanks!
You would normally never seee any mainline go through the curved side of a point or single slip or double slip or 3way. It would mean the trains having to slow just for that point.
You are right Peter, but this is technically off-stage so I can get away with it. I was going to add scenery to the Middle Junction area but that immediately bought the issue you have raised into view, and that did not sit comfortably with me - especially as I have added trap points etc to make it look right!
Fairly sure the Down WCML goes through the curved part of track at Armitage Junction - unless it has been remodelled since last I went through it…
Could add a red line loop like the final yellow/green loop if absolutely necessary. The blue would probably be a dive under given the branch line stops a flyover option. Reality sometimes gets in the way.
Hi Barry - That was absolutely mind blowing. Unbelievable as I actually understood what you was on about.
I found this update extremely interesting and enjoyable to watch and wow doesn't it look good when its all laid down. Thankyou Barry.
Regards Chris
Thanks Chris. Best wishes
I had always hoped that you would explain middle junction again, it’s such an important aspect of the layout, but one that needs a bit of head space.
Best regards
Indeed, especially for those of use a bit short on the old head space!!
I’ve decided to make this episode the decision making basis for both of my layout entry/exit fiddle yards.
I’ll just keep coming back to it until it delivers the same result
Thanks again
Great workaround, congrats, I enjoy your updates
Thank you!
Nice ground work,planning is main key to good layout build👍👌
Couldn't agree more - although sometimes, it's fun to just "wing"it!
Yes your right there weve winged few things on our new exhibition layout with group new guys to hobby @@yarslowmodelrailway1
I always enjoy your videos👍
Thank you
Nicely explained and executed
Thanks Paul
Simplicity can be quite complicated!! 😯
(new subscriber, Virginia)
If only simplicity was simple............
Wow! Nice work.
Thank you! Cheers!
Wow, well thought out
Thank you
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!
My pleasure!
Not sure that would be prototypical. Would be a speed restriction on mainline for complexity of pointwork
Hi Richard. Luckily,this formation is off-scene so we can excercise a bit more freedom in formations.
Basingstoke had a double slip at the east end of the station on the down mainline which had a speed restriction of 65 mph on it, although trains often seemed to ignore that back in the 80's...
Interesting, and I like your vids, but if you were to replace the two double slips in the middle by two points - to straighten the red and blue lines would that be too long overall? Regards Andrew
Yes Andrew - I only had 47 inches to work in.
vevrey interestng
Thanks!
Good one. How many point motors is that?
Too many Don! The bigger issue is that the crossings have live frogs!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We could make it a contest! a) 203, b) 97, c) 34, d) 21, e) 12. Winner gets a pat on the back, and a bottle of their favorite over-the-counter headache pain reliever.
Hi, An excellent presentation of a v.good, but by nature complex, but not a complicated track design IMHO. For point motor control do you use a ‘route selection circuit’ to simplify this aspect of operation? It may interest you and others to know that for EACH of the four ‘slipped junctions’ plus for the terminus station throat on my layout I’m using solenoid point motors and controlling each element via a diode matrix linked to a SP four (4) way rotary switch to select the route plus a single N/o push button per element to actuate the selection. A high powered CDU (4700 mF capacitor) for each group of point motors completes the design. I would be very interested to learn the of the control system you use. Best Regards, Tony 🚂
@@yarslowmodelrailway1 I hope that none are where your favourite crossbeams are supporting the baseboard. The reason that I ask is that I have developed a complex crossover design for my layout. I'm be using DCC Concepts ESP with accessories on a separate power bus from the track power bus. I'm even dreaming of a mimic board.
Looks like 9 to me. Which, if you were to use point motors such as the Cobalt Omega with built-in switches, you are looking at around £140+ for motors! Add to that, switches, LEDs etc.
It can all get very expensive, very quickly.