Thanks for your explanation, with visual aids, of what caused the breakdown. Visual really helped. Just want to send you a hello and well wishes from a rainy Texas. - Leigh
That James is a torsional stress fracture and appears from the video to have started from the keyway and will have taken years to developed and is due to the constant change of direction of the shaft as in my engineering days I dealt with mechanical defects in components well that's my humble opinion, love your videos mate hope you find the part needed.
If you find that the alignment is off center, a universell joint might help when putting it back together. It would straighten the bend so to speak, as well as relieving compound pressure in the prop shaft. Maybe....
Some kind of rubber coupling vibration dampner might have enough flex to eliminate a problem of slight alingment. A universal jount would work for a situation of a larger missalingment. But a U-joint can still induce movenents of runout. That might prove to be a problem.
It looks like you have the engine sitting on old rubber mounts right? From what I can tell from the videos, it looks like you have a flexible mounted engine connected to a rigid propshaft? If that's the case then the shaft was under quite a lot of torsional stresses and was going to fail at some point. The output shaft from the gearbox failed at the keyway - you can see the point at the corner of the keyway where a crack propagated and only happened because that is the weakest part. In any root cause analysis, start with the failure cause. In this case I would start at the engine side: check the engine mounts - if they look old and have deteriorated then replace. Then check alignment and realign to the propshaft. Most importantly - get a flexi coupling installed. You should avoid having a flexibly mounted engine connected to a rigid propshaft as it will fail again. Good luck.
I forgot to say that if the engine is rigidly mounted, then make sure the alignment is done properly. Still consider the flexible coupling and if you can stretch the budget, install flexible engine mounts if the engine bedframe and supports can accommodate them without too much cutting or rearrangement of the engine bay. It will make cruising and running the engine much quieter with less vibration. I did post about the various types of flexi couplings that would fit your setup but it was deleted as I mentioned a brand name and website. Have a look at the Dutch engine supplier's website - the one that supplies yellow engines and has a name that sounds like 'Whetus' - you will see the couplings I am talking about.
Hi James. Looks like a stress shear, definately check alignments and engine mounts. The prop shaft is in a fixed position but the engine and gearbox are rubber mounted. On startup or changes from forward / reverse the engine will kick to the side stressing the shaft, your old coupling seems to have been the problem and formed a solid connection between the gearbox and prop shaft. Some sort of flexible type coupling would be best to allow a little stress less movement between the fixed prop shaft and gearbox and it will4 cut down the transfer of engine vibrations into the boat structure too....cheers.
To find the problem right away is a good sign! Fingers crossed again it all goes as fast and smooth as this first day. Lots of blessings in the middle of it all. You'll get some projects done and have more leisure down the line in better weather.
Like Sarky says a UJ might be the answer, we have them on the power take off (PTO) shafts on some of our machinery. James I hope you doing OK. Take care. Thanks for the update.
One thing i just dont understand when someone watches this , how difficult is it for nearly 5000 viewers to just click the like button ? I click it straight away because every vid you put out is al;ways full of interesting and enjoyable tales of you living on Sloe Patrol.
Was interesting to see in inside of the reducer. Yep those gears look in good shape. Sucks that we got to look inside the reducer under these circumstances though. Sounds like good news and hope she gets in the water safely!
James it's definitely an old war wound on the shaft that has over time failed as you were changing from forward to reverse when it happened, as someone mention lucky it happened where it did not far from the repair shop. They maybe able to get a new one turned up for you if they can't find a secondhand one best of luck from NZ.
Do they have to replace the whole reducer? (Gears, etc.?) Or is it possible to just replace the barstock piece in the shaft? (Wondering if it's one piece or multiple pieces with the old excuse "the whole thing needs to be replaced" when it's really just a cotter pin needing replacement scenario).
@@thepeanutgallery1699 if they can't find a secondhand reducer, then I would look at getting a new shaft turned up from the right bar stock as they have the old one for measurements.
IMO might be better to get a new shaft turned for inside the reducer and replace just that shaft and reuse the coupling that you have. There’s no way the weight of that coupling had anything to do with that shaft failing.
Agree about the coupling - It's a bit overkill but wouldn't make much difference in terms of weight. That particular coupling is meant to be a 'fuse' type connection. It has no keyway and is split down the sides - the idea is to correctly torque those six clamping bolts so that in the case where the prop grounds or gets jammed/locked, then the coupling will slip rather than damage the gearbox. Looks to me that the issue is probably that the engine looks to be/probably is flexi-mounted but is mounted to a rigid propshaft. Needs a flexi-coupling after the gearbox output shaft.
New output shaft for the reducer, gasket, lip seal and maybe a new carrier bearing and it's fixed. I wouldn't bother with replacing the coupler or flange. As long as the coupler and flange are still true, both bores in good shape with good keyways. The mass the coupler and flange represent to the reducer output shaft is nothing compared to going from forward to reverse with any power being put through the drive system. The torque put back through the drive system will stress, crack and out right break a shaft far faster than the mass of the coupler. Even at idle/tic over,,, lolololol going from forward to reverse with the boat moving induces massive amounts of torque back through the drive system not to mention harmonics. The harmonics will come from chatter in the prop shaft bearing and from propeller cavitation. Water does not compress and fights back with massive power at times. If you do replace the coupler and flange make damn sure the unit is sized for the horse power and torque of the engine, diameter and pitch of the prop and shaft sizes. I would guess this problem has setback the massive Cummings Turbo Diesel install, trim tab system, flame paint job on the front of the boat and the dancing girls,,,,, Darn it to heck!!!!! LMAO,,, Good Luck
Hi James, glad the damage isn't to bad and that it can be fixed, it could have been a lot worse, it could have needed a replacement gear box. What I like is your positivity about everything James. Until the next vlog stay safe my friend.
I was worse than I expected I did hope for it been a small key in the shaft I did see it was ok in the broken bit shame it wasn’t. But sounds like rat can fix it
It will be interesting to see if the boat really did need to come out of the water. I suspect not. There was obviously enough access to remove the coupling and the shaft has pushed aft allowing the reducer to be removed. There doesn't seem to be anything that couldn't be done with the boat in the water.
Off the shelf, or custom made? Have you got room for a lathe on board? Hope it costs no more than an arm. All the best, mate. Edit: Can't they just replace that coupling with a UJ?
You’ll always need good Access to the engine bay for when something goes wrong,as it often does on a narrow boat.looks like the had some new parts on the bench ie the small coupling plus the shaft.
Hi James glad you took it to Ralph kitts rather than Canal and river rescue I have a problem with my coupling but the problem With my coupling is that it’s made by Bukh as is the engine and everything by bukh is expensive , anyway glad you are getting sorted ,if you are Passing harefield soon I will look out for you I’m just moored up in the marina for the winter . Anyway all the best James
hi James, I have followed you from the first episode. I don't know much about boats. But from an engineering point of view, the shaft broke because there was no give in it. One end of the shaft is held by the boat the other end is held by an engine that is bolted directly down, so alignment must be 100% which is nearly impossible. As the engine wants to vibrate. It should have a flexible coupling to take the shocks out of it.
Hi James I hate to say” I told you so” Access to the engine bay and you said you could access from the doors end and you didn’t need a large access panel
Ouch! It looks like a stress crack has propagated from the corner of the shaft keyway. I had a similar thing on my Moto Guzzi Le Mans camshaft. The engine tuner ground the cam lobes for a more aggressive lift but sadly just left a nick in the shaft. I had the time of my life on the Isle of Man for two weeks blasting around the non-speed-limited roads then rode the 275 miles home from Heysham. The day after getting home at 5am I rode 150 yards to the petrol station to fill up and the engine fell dead. It waited to get all the way home before letting go at 25mph. When I took it apart the camshaft had snapped like a carrot just like your output shaft.
So…. Why crane the boat out to remove the gearbox? Pretty sure the shaft could have been pushed back far enough to remove the box with the boat in the water..
@@GaryB007 yeah but he literally showed us the broken shaft before the gearbox was removed. Could just push the shaft all the way back and remove the coupling and the gearbox.. it’s even possible to remove the shaft with the boat in the water with very little water ingress. It’s common place with big fishing boats. It’s his money and all that but the crane out seems a bit of a scam. Even in the video the shaft is still in the tube . Not even taken the rudder off.. 🧐
What I don't understand is, why the key way didn't shear off, you can see the key way in the video, for that shaft to snap like that would take a tremendous amount of torque, it might well have been a previous issue, the engine being out of alignment wouldn't have helped, if that is the case. I just can't see how that shaft would have sneered off like that. Hopefully they can find another one, I presume it will be second hand . I personally would look into getting one machined up. Good luck, it looks like you are in good hand.
In my experience in industry normally there is a "lovejoy" coupler that will shear off when excessive torque forces occur. This protects both shafts and can be replaced in situ.
On the upside …the worst possible type of damage has been more or less ruled out. When I think of the hundreds of places in which Sloe Patrol could have broken down. You were “lucky in your misfortune” as it were.
Might as well get the blacking done while the boats out of the water….did you know you can put a nappy in the engine bilge to soak up the water….does a brilliant job
I'm concerned about you sleeping in that dinette area. Seems to me you dezerve more comfort. Are you intending to move into the bedroom you've worked so hard on?
I'd black anything scraped off sooner rather than later. Out of the water in air is where rust happens, right? (At least slap a little black over any metal exposed/badly scraped and then do a full coat later when you've got time/inclination) And Yay Narrowboat Hands! (Paul!) 👏
James - is this not a simple case of poor alignment which caused the fatigue fracture? I always thought there was a lot of vibration in your boat just listening to it which lends weight to this theory?? Seems like a universal joint / coupling is needed here to prevent this going forward.
and then you could put an old washing up bowl under the stern gland to catch the drips and keep the nicely painted engine bay dry now that you mostly keep it covered. 🙂
"Stern Deck" ? Does that mean it was serious and unrelenting ? Sorry just a play on words......Ask Rat if he is from Leicester, its just that I once knew a chap called Rat who was from Leicester. Shame you cant fit a flexi coupling in the small space you have.. As you know I used to commision Multi Million pound High speed packaging lines, so this is just a small engineering challenge of which the guys at the marina will easily resolve. Top fault finding Young James. Progress in the right direction. Cheers Old Friend. Hic Burp :-)
Too much rotational weight. Like a flywheel. Going from forward to reverse without letting the prop shaft with all that weight to stop rotating, and no load dampener like a Lovejoy coupling. No surprise here.
I was worse than I expected I did hope for it been a small key in the shaft I did see it was ok in the broken bit shame it wasn’t. But sounds like rat can fix it
That's how it happens, age, fatigue and to much inertia equals a failure of that weakest link. Time to fabricate a better way for it to work, without passing on failure to the next weakest link?
Well it looks like it is serious enough to justify the lift but not so serious that they will need a crane to lift your wallet. Good luck with it all, you seem to be in good hand with Rat.
My understanding of gearboxes has increased 1000%! Thanks.
Mine too !!!
Thanks for your explanation, with visual aids, of what caused the breakdown. Visual really helped. Just want to send you a hello and well wishes from a rainy Texas. - Leigh
It’s hammering it down here too! Bloody miserable however I’m building the dinette storage thing today so there’ll be a video out later
Stay well
That James is a torsional stress fracture and appears from the video to have started from the keyway and will have taken years to developed and is due to the constant change of direction of the shaft as in my engineering days I dealt with mechanical defects in components well that's my humble opinion, love your videos mate hope you find the part needed.
If you find that the alignment is off center, a universell joint might help when putting it back together. It would straighten the bend so to speak, as well as relieving compound pressure in the prop shaft. Maybe....
James you look exhausted.
Please take good and gentle care of yourself. Be well. x
I’m surprised to see the prop shaft fitted rigidly to the drive flange. Most props I have seen have a rubber joint in them to act as shock absorber
Good attitude James, old boat , old wounds. At least your giving it a proper fix. Crack on. Stay safe.
Crack on ? Ouch!
Thers no flexible coupling between the reduction gearbox and prop shaft, big error.
Can't believe you're out the water again. You are a lucky chap. Could of been in the middle of no where. You know. Good luck ripper.
You need some holders ! ... helpers to hold the fabric while you line up etc ... its looking fantastic 👍 happy to help anytime just shout 👌
Some kind of rubber coupling vibration dampner might have enough flex to eliminate a problem of slight alingment. A universal jount would work for a situation of a larger missalingment. But a U-joint can still induce movenents of runout. That might prove to be a problem.
It looks like you have the engine sitting on old rubber mounts right? From what I can tell from the videos, it looks like you have a flexible mounted engine connected to a rigid propshaft? If that's the case then the shaft was under quite a lot of torsional stresses and was going to fail at some point. The output shaft from the gearbox failed at the keyway - you can see the point at the corner of the keyway where a crack propagated and only happened because that is the weakest part. In any root cause analysis, start with the failure cause. In this case I would start at the engine side: check the engine mounts - if they look old and have deteriorated then replace. Then check alignment and realign to the propshaft. Most importantly - get a flexi coupling installed. You should avoid having a flexibly mounted engine connected to a rigid propshaft as it will fail again. Good luck.
I forgot to say that if the engine is rigidly mounted, then make sure the alignment is done properly. Still consider the flexible coupling and if you can stretch the budget, install flexible engine mounts if the engine bedframe and supports can accommodate them without too much cutting or rearrangement of the engine bay. It will make cruising and running the engine much quieter with less vibration. I did post about the various types of flexi couplings that would fit your setup but it was deleted as I mentioned a brand name and website. Have a look at the Dutch engine supplier's website - the one that supplies yellow engines and has a name that sounds like 'Whetus' - you will see the couplings I am talking about.
Hi James. Looks like a stress shear, definately check alignments and engine mounts. The prop shaft is in a fixed position but the engine and gearbox are rubber mounted. On startup or changes from forward / reverse the engine will kick to the side stressing the shaft, your old coupling seems to have been the problem and formed a solid connection between the gearbox and prop shaft. Some sort of flexible type coupling would be best to allow a little stress less movement between the fixed prop shaft and gearbox and it will4 cut down the transfer of engine vibrations into the boat structure too....cheers.
Good news the problem is found straight away and therefore hoping it will be sorted easily, James :)
Good to hear that they found out what the problem is.
Thanks for explaning it so well.
Have a good work Day..
To find the problem right away is a good sign! Fingers crossed again it all goes as fast and smooth as this first day. Lots of blessings in the middle of it all. You'll get some projects done and have more leisure down the line in better weather.
Like Sarky says a UJ might be the answer, we have them on the power take off (PTO) shafts on some of our machinery. James I hope you doing OK. Take care. Thanks for the update.
Great news that you are getting the boat sorted 👍
Hi James, Glad the fault was found right away. Fingers crossed that you get your replacement reducer very quickly. Good Luck and Take care.
Morning James. Sad seeing Sloe Patrol out of the cut broken down 😫 But it’s really interesting seeing what’s broken and getting fixed 😀
One thing i just dont understand when someone watches this , how difficult is it for nearly 5000 viewers to just click the like button ? I click it straight away because every vid you put out is al;ways full of interesting and enjoyable tales of you living on Sloe Patrol.
Was interesting to see in inside of the reducer. Yep those gears look in good shape. Sucks that we got to look inside the reducer under these circumstances though. Sounds like good news and hope she gets in the water safely!
Thanks for a very informative video. Sounds like you're making the best of a bad situation, hope you get it repaired very soon.
James it's definitely an old war wound on the shaft that has over time failed as you were changing from forward to reverse when it happened, as someone mention lucky it happened where it did not far from the repair shop. They maybe able to get a new one turned up for you if they can't find a secondhand one best of luck from NZ.
Do they have to replace the whole reducer? (Gears, etc.?) Or is it possible to just replace the barstock piece in the shaft? (Wondering if it's one piece or multiple pieces with the old excuse "the whole thing needs to be replaced" when it's really just a cotter pin needing replacement scenario).
@@thepeanutgallery1699 if they can't find a secondhand reducer, then I would look at getting a new shaft turned up from the right bar stock as they have the old one for measurements.
IMO might be better to get a new shaft turned for inside the reducer and replace just that shaft and reuse the coupling that you have. There’s no way the weight of that coupling had anything to do with that shaft failing.
Agree about the coupling - It's a bit overkill but wouldn't make much difference in terms of weight. That particular coupling is meant to be a 'fuse' type connection. It has no keyway and is split down the sides - the idea is to correctly torque those six clamping bolts so that in the case where the prop grounds or gets jammed/locked, then the coupling will slip rather than damage the gearbox. Looks to me that the issue is probably that the engine looks to be/probably is flexi-mounted but is mounted to a rigid propshaft. Needs a flexi-coupling after the gearbox output shaft.
Correct .
Glad you are in good hands. Hope there is no more damage to be found. 😊
New output shaft for the reducer, gasket, lip seal and maybe a new carrier bearing and it's fixed. I wouldn't bother with replacing the coupler or flange. As long as the coupler and flange are still true, both bores in good shape with good keyways. The mass the coupler and flange represent to the reducer output shaft is nothing compared to going from forward to reverse with any power being put through the drive system. The torque put back through the drive system will stress, crack and out right break a shaft far faster than the mass of the coupler. Even at idle/tic over,,, lolololol going from forward to reverse with the boat moving induces massive amounts of torque back through the drive system not to mention harmonics. The harmonics will come from chatter in the prop shaft bearing and from propeller cavitation. Water does not compress and fights back with massive power at times. If you do replace the coupler and flange make damn sure the unit is sized for the horse power and torque of the engine, diameter and pitch of the prop and shaft sizes. I would guess this problem has setback the massive Cummings Turbo Diesel install, trim tab system, flame paint job on the front of the boat and the dancing girls,,,,, Darn it to heck!!!!! LMAO,,, Good Luck
Hi James, glad the damage isn't to bad and that it can be fixed, it could have been a lot worse, it could have needed a replacement gear box. What I like is your positivity about everything James. Until the next vlog stay safe my friend.
I was worse than I expected I did hope for it been a small key in the shaft I did see it was ok in the broken bit shame it wasn’t. But sounds like rat can fix it
Oh no 🙈 your poor stern deck 😳 what a pain!
It will be interesting to see if the boat really did need to come out of the water. I suspect not. There was obviously enough access to remove the coupling and the shaft has pushed aft allowing the reducer to be removed. There doesn't seem to be anything that couldn't be done with the boat in the water.
Off the shelf, or custom made? Have you got room for a lathe on board?
Hope it costs no more than an arm.
All the best, mate.
Edit: Can't they just replace that coupling with a UJ?
4:48 I'm not sure if it's an optical illusion or the shadow from one of the studs but it looks like that gear is missing a tooth or two....?
You’ll always need good Access to the engine bay for when something goes wrong,as it often does on a narrow boat.looks like the had some new parts on the bench ie the small coupling plus the shaft.
Hi James glad you took it to Ralph kitts rather than Canal and river rescue I have a problem with my coupling but the problem
With my coupling is that it’s made by Bukh as is the engine and everything by bukh is expensive , anyway glad you are getting sorted ,if you are
Passing harefield soon I will look out for you I’m just moored up in the marina for the winter . Anyway all the best James
Hope all goes well and you're back on the water asap. 👍
hi James, I have followed you from the first episode. I don't know much about boats. But from an engineering point of view, the shaft broke because there was no give in it. One end of the shaft is held by the boat the other end is held by an engine that is bolted directly down, so alignment must be 100% which is nearly impossible. As the engine wants to vibrate. It should have a flexible coupling to take the shocks out of it.
100% my first thought.
Hi James
I hate to say” I told you so”
Access to the engine bay and you said you could access from the doors end and you didn’t need a large access panel
Wow, crazy for coupling to just fail like that, hope you can find a replacement soon x
There is a Lister engineering chap on the cut working off his boat with many Lister bits on board.
I have seen his vlogs but cannot remember his name.
Fingers crossed James 🤞🏼
Ouch!
It looks like a stress crack has propagated from the corner of the shaft keyway.
I had a similar thing on my Moto Guzzi Le Mans camshaft. The engine tuner ground the cam lobes for a more aggressive lift but sadly just left a nick in the shaft. I had the time of my life on the Isle of Man for two weeks blasting around the non-speed-limited roads then rode the 275 miles home from Heysham. The day after getting home at 5am I rode 150 yards to the petrol station to fill up and the engine fell dead. It waited to get all the way home before letting go at 25mph. When I took it apart the camshaft had snapped like a carrot just like your output shaft.
I think I saw the same issue around the key way as well.
The weight of the coupling would not do that but misalignment would. You need a flexible coupling.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the coupling it's an alignment issue I feel
So…. Why crane the boat out to remove the gearbox? Pretty sure the shaft could have been pushed back far enough to remove the box with the boat in the water..
But you wouldn't know exactly what needed to be removed until you do it.
@@GaryB007 yeah but he literally showed us the broken shaft before the gearbox was removed. Could just push the shaft all the way back and remove the coupling and the gearbox.. it’s even possible to remove the shaft with the boat in the water with very little water ingress. It’s common place with big fishing boats. It’s his money and all that but the crane out seems a bit of a scam. Even in the video the shaft is still in the tube . Not even taken the rudder off.. 🧐
glad its gonna be ok
did the boat 100% have to come out of the water? How long for the curtains? Will help keep the boat warm
What I don't understand is, why the key way didn't shear off, you can see the key way in the video, for that shaft to snap like that would take a tremendous amount of torque, it might well have been a previous issue, the engine being out of alignment wouldn't have helped, if that is the case. I just can't see how that shaft would have sneered off like that.
Hopefully they can find another one, I presume it will be second hand . I personally would look into getting one machined up.
Good luck, it looks like you are in good hand.
In my experience in industry normally there is a "lovejoy" coupler that will shear off when excessive torque forces occur. This protects both shafts and can be replaced in situ.
On the upside …the worst possible type of damage has been more or less ruled out. When I think of the hundreds of places in which Sloe Patrol could have broken down. You were “lucky in your misfortune” as it were.
Good news for bad, glad it is just the shaft and not the reduction gear itself.
Might as well get the blacking done while the boats out of the water….did you know you can put a nappy in the engine bilge to soak up the water….does a brilliant job
I'm concerned about you sleeping in that dinette area. Seems to me you dezerve more comfort. Are you intending to move into the bedroom you've worked so hard on?
Yes but I’m happy in the dinette. Bedroom is more comfy but much colder - this is fine for me thanks
I'd black anything scraped off sooner rather than later. Out of the water in air is where rust happens, right? (At least slap a little black over any metal exposed/badly scraped and then do a full coat later when you've got time/inclination)
And Yay Narrowboat Hands! (Paul!) 👏
James - is this not a simple case of poor alignment which caused the fatigue fracture? I always thought there was a lot of vibration in your boat just listening to it which lends weight to this theory??
Seems like a universal joint / coupling is needed here to prevent this going forward.
and then you could put an old washing up bowl under the stern gland to catch the drips and keep the nicely painted engine bay dry now that you mostly keep it covered. 🙂
Hmmm……………that’s a substantial shaft to shear/snap due to the weight of the coupling.
"Stern Deck" ? Does that mean it was serious and unrelenting ? Sorry just a play on words......Ask Rat if he is from Leicester, its just that I once knew a chap called Rat who was from Leicester. Shame you cant fit a flexi coupling in the small space you have.. As you know I used to commision Multi Million pound High speed packaging lines, so this is just a small engineering challenge of which the guys at the marina will easily resolve. Top fault finding Young James. Progress in the right direction. Cheers Old Friend. Hic Burp :-)
A few days may give you the opportunity to clean out the area below where the gearbox lives.
Good video keep up the good video s
FIRST IN !!
I've left 2 comments and RUclips ate both, I suppose because I put in a link for an example. Hopefully you can at least see them James. Cheers mate.
Too much rotational weight. Like a flywheel. Going from forward to reverse without letting the prop shaft with all that weight to stop rotating, and no load dampener like a Lovejoy coupling. No surprise here.
I'll double up on rotinkerbell's comment--you do a look a bit tired and I hope now that at least the uncertainty is over, you can get some rest.
Is Ralph and rat the same person?
no im ralph
👍👌🇨🇦❤, -51 C or -59.8 f here tonight
So why on earth did you spend a huge amount of money to take the boat out of the water?
@@IDKline alignment and coupling could be checked with the boat in the water.
💙👊😎
PLEASE call the moving part's in a "gear"box as gear's. F***ing cogs. On the up side though, you said flange. ;)
If you get a chance could you show us the weed hatch from the underneath?
Maybe somebody can make a shaft for it
I was worse than I expected I did hope for it been a small key in the shaft I did see it was ok in the broken bit shame it wasn’t. But sounds like rat can fix it
That's how it happens, age, fatigue and to much inertia equals a failure of that weakest link.
Time to fabricate a better way for it to work, without passing on failure to the next weakest link?
Well it looks like it is serious enough to justify the lift but not so serious that they will need a crane to lift your wallet. Good luck with it all, you seem to be in good hand with Rat.