SECONDARY HOT WATER LOOPS EXPLAINED & Why they are important on a big build.
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- Secondary hot water loops going in on Day 1 at the biggest build I think I’ve done so far on the channel.
I show you how i connect in the secondary hot and why they are so important on a build of this size.
Also getting my head around the new job that we will be on for a good few months.
#howto #plumbing #building
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Iv recently added a "Join" button to my channel.....a few people had mentioned it (i didnt even know it was a thing)
So if you want to "Buy me a brew" then hit the join button........
ill join soon.........remember i have tyres to pay for:P 350 x 2 divided by 2 add in the travel then the heating cost of the tyre warmer then............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ i hope your ok
We always worked to hospital spec back in the day, Im a retired industrial plumber, domestic hot water could be anything fom 4 inch flow to 1 inch return, just would like to say I loved every minute of my job, when i started, we used to go mainlaying using spun yarn and molten lead caulking, I remember the intense supervision from an old guy when set to do my first joint on a six inch water main. We tested to 200lbs with no trouble, provided the thrust blocks were there. The same guy had me bringing up branches by hand on ten inch copper, and making six inch by four inch reducers by hand , happy ,happy days.
Thanks mate, great insight
Your a mechanical engineer not industrial plumber
Good explanation on secondary circulation for hot water bud. We used to do the same timer pir and pipe stat and fit a balancing valve on the loop. If your worried about pressure you could always stick an expansion vessel on the secondary loop, I've done it in the past.
Cheers buddy
Well said, not teachin, just showin, great channel 👍👍👍👍
Just showing😉
Very well explained another big job Mark best of luck with it all
Thanks Glyn…
Each to their own everyone has a way of doing things that works for them and as alway a great video mark thank you 👊
Thanks Ray 🙌🏼🙌🏼
I really appreciate your video's and the time it takes,also how you go about your business mistakes and all,great knowledge and real world jobs 👍👍👍
Thanks mate, just showing how it is in the trade
Hi M J Tiff.
Really enjoy your videos. Been in the game now for 30 odd years myself. I used to use polyplumb for piping up the new builds also on the secondary return. Unfortunately I don't use it anymore for new builds requiring a secondary return as I had a chat with them after I found out that it can't be used on a continuous hot. I told them it would be timed, but they said it doesn't matter. They said if it goes on the secondary loop they won't guarantee the pipe or fittings. Hep were the same, but it can be used 1 meter after the loop. I now use Uponor Q&E for all my new builds as they were the only one's to guarantee there pipe and fittings. Personally I think you'll be fine with timed secondary, but your pipe and fittings won't be under guarantee. Sorry for the long post. We need to cover our asses.
All the best.
Thanks mate….👍🏼👍🏼
thank you lee. and ty you mj tiff. mj tiff did you get confirmation from speedfit its ok? saves me doing legwork.
I only use q&ev on new builds never had a problem with it I like the fact that you can't forget to do a joint with it
Whats the issue with secondary loop being in barrier pipe/pex/mlcp?
I'm looking to start a self build and require one. How do you manage lengths of copper going through metal webbed posi joists?
I always use q&e, least I know there's not going to be any leaks👍
Well explained a big job, five bathrooms lot of work
Thanks mate
Another great video mark, look forward to Wednesday's and Sunday nights
Thanks Jason
Well explained about secondary hot water Mark thank you it was very informative and I did enjoyed it thanks for sharing ❤️❤️❤️👍🏼💐🙂
Thanks Fred
Good morninng
Do you dpeak frensh ?
Vous êtes à londre?
Well done for keeping calm Mark, can tell your head is whirling away on this job. Always a pain when other trades in before plumbing first fix finished. Definitely need them shower valves.... Real life👍🏻. You'll win in the end
Thanks mate…. It’s a pain that’s for sure
Hey up pal hope you're well nice video, I've done a secondary return the same as you over 5 years ago and still running spot on, have the secondary system on a timer easy.
Thanks mate, yep I always have them on a timer aswell, with the pump set to low…. Never had an issue 👍🏼👍🏼
Hi,
Good video, something I’ve a question about is that I don’t think speedfit pipe can be used on a secondary circuit, I believe it’s in the manu instructions.I have had people talk about the return pipe being the “secondary circuit” but it is in fact the whole hot water pipe carrying dhw from source back to source. Keep up the good work.
You are correct bud, you can’t use speedfit, hep none of them it’s in manufactures literature. You have to pipe the whole dhw supply from source and back again in copper, I believe there a bs number it refers to but I can’t remember it. I don’t think you can even get around it by setting it up on a timer but I’m not 100% sure on that or even if your public liability is void if a problem ever occurred.
@@philipjones4890 thats a nightmare when fitting copper to posi joists each 400/600 centre would need cut and straight coupled?
Hi Mark, don't forget to tell the plant room guys to fit the cold water isolation tap in a sensible location 😁
Hahahaa….. so true
👍👍Great video gonna be another interesting build
Keep up the good work Mark
Thanks mate…. Oh it will be
Another great video Mark,it must take some planning what you do these big jobs
Thanks mate, yer it takes some working out
🤘😎🤘 I will be getting back to it full time soon myself 🤘😎🤘🙏
Good man 👍🏼👍🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼
Awesome Wayne hope your doing well buddy👍
@@tirvplumbing Thank you 🙏
Copper or plastic it's art and it works mate. Great work as always.
Thanks buddy
Uponor allow you to use their MLC and Pex pipes on both flow and return on a DHW secondary runs
👍🏼👍🏼
Hi mate, used plastic barrier pipe for past 25, 30 years on secondary returns with no issues.
Thanks Paul, yep I’ve never had an issue either 👍🏼👍🏼
In the last couple of years I've been doing some work in the care sector refurbishing bathrooms etc and one of the issues that cropped up was the hot water loop that dropped into each bathroom was deteriorating, I'd never seen anything like it before. Each loop was in hep and on a permanent circulation pump, no timer. I called Hep/ Wavin and the guy told me that not only was Hep not meant for this application but all plastics were unsuitable and this was very slowly being written into the regs or maybe manufacturers small print, I can't remember the exact location.
Apparently the issue is with the water being constantly replenished with oxygenated water as opposed to a heating system where the oxygen would have been worked out of the system one way or another.
Based on this info using a copper return is pointless if the 'flow' pipework is plastic as it's one and the same.
On a slightly different note the energy cost of running a pump permanently is considerable so as was mentioned and I'd say in all the points I've made the timer is the essential element in the system. I have no technical data to back anything up it's just what I've seen and what I've been told and it seems it's not uncommon at least in the use of Hep, I also believe the manufacturers guarantee is null and void as it's use is incorrectly spec'd
Hi Mark,
Another great film, thank you for the secondary hot explanation.
The first fix always looks very confusing when watching the film, but as the job progresses it becomes more self explanatory.
The new build looks to be a great job, with no problems for you I hope, unlike the other job for this builder.
I look forward to the next film, have a great rest of the week, take care, regards, Chris. 👍👍👍
Thanks Chris…. Yes this one seems a little better, however I do seem to be up against the plasterers at the moment which isn’t great as they are just going at it with a large gang…. Will see how it pans out.
@@MJTiffPlumbing I hope all works out well for you, cheers 🍻👍👍
@@chrisholt2474 cheers mate
brilliant mark love a wed and tues video spot on i,ve picked up a big job cylinder system boiler under floor heating gone give snug a call see wot they can do for me keep up the great content as always 👌👍👊
Nice one Mike…..you won’t go wrong with the snug team mate.
I will have a word and see if I can sort you a little deal😉😉
@@MJTiffPlumbing thank you
Brilliant video 👊🏼👊🏼
Thanks buddy
🇨🇦 What you call secondary hot we call hot circulation or re-circ line.
We Use Uponor or Heat link pex-a or aqua pex pipe. Same concept take a return line back from the furthest fixture back to the water heater.
Cheers Mark.
👍🏼👍🏼
In my firm,our chief plumber🤪 created a new bathroom in an old building bedroom,he never fitted 2ndary and wondered why the pressure was crap waiting ages for water to get hot,had to fit a salamander on system for him as existing pipework was boxed in with asbestos everywhere,and could get 2ndary pipe to new bathroom safely.
Asbestos 😮😮
Had pin holes in five places in the space of 4 months using plastic on the hot water supply with a copper return, some of the pipework i believe may have been non barrier though so probably didnt help, job lasted 8 years then insurance job for £6000, very understanding customer but i will never do it again. Great channel picking up some good tips.
Thanks mate 👍🏼👍🏼
Always will be a smartass, google warrior plumber,that will say anything,but never you will see his job anywhere...keep up the good work my friend!!!!
To be honest, the guy who messaged is a fairly well known plumber in the social scene….
@@MJTiffPlumbing well i dont even know,why he spent his time to say things like that...you can do a job with at least 50 different ways,but every plumber do it his way...i am 25 years on the trade and i hear same things...i dont even bother,i say just '"yes"' lol
You should read manufacturers instructions. John guest specifications say, pipe should not be used on any part of a continuously operated secondary return. So with a timer I guess it complies with manufacturers instructions.
I Always fit a timer on these systems or a PIR in the bathrooms 👍🏼👍🏼
I’ve done them in plastic before too and honestly I didn’t know as it’s not taught in hw regs or unvented or at least wasn’t at the time. I only picked up on it through reading and now I know I wouldn’t do any part of the loop in plastic again.
👍🏼👍🏼 We are all always learning
I attended many jobs, especially in care homes with leaks on the secondary caused by plastic fittings. The fittings and pipe ends seem to totally degrade and even the manufacturers can't explain why, with what iv experienced, I would now be worried not using copper. All manufacturers tell you not to use plastic etc. Also they all tell you that this was brought in as a result of a competitors fitting failure and not theres lol
RIP Steve Wright
Looking like another interesting job Mark, got to admit I’m no fan of speed fit, hep for me , down to personal choice, or what the builder is suppling I suppose, looking forward to seeing it al progress. 🚽👍
Thanks mate, to be honest I prefer Polypipe when doing installs with plastic but it’s what he’s supplying
hi Mark great stuff love ur videos.. one ques. if ur putting the shower valve there will somebod have to reach out of the shower to adjust it ..say im showering and i want hotter or cooler spray . can i reach it easy ..i think id rather my mira in the cubicle matey .but keep on the good work Tiffy . love ur content . p.s have a pisup after the jobbie is done.. lol
Thanks buddy 👍🏼👍🏼….
Most people like it outside the shower nowadays
That secondary return yes I get that but wondering why copper is to do with the bronze bearing pump, rather than just do it all in plastic. hope you don,t mind my asking , because it just seems strange,I working a hotel once and we did it all in copper, but this was a few years ago, cheers mate a good job once again and video,.
You should get your self an apprentice , he or she will save you a lot of time and you will reap the rewards in the future , you seem to have a lot of patience so will be a good teacher keep the videos coming .
Thanks buddy 👍🏼👍🏼
Clever fella
You want a really low flow rate on your secondary loop. 10mm copper works well for this and lag it to the hilt. If you use 15mm put a double regulating valve on it and slow the flow down to a trickle. Most renewable manufacturers say not to use secondary returns now as they deplete the heat in the cylinders too fast. Speak to the sparks and get something like PIR sensors linked back to the pump so the pump is not constantly running. A timer never seems to work at the right time but if you have a customer with a constant routine it might!
Yer I have heard people are stopping using them for energy reasons.
This will be on a timer 👍🏼👍🏼
so the pir sensors see if theres someone in the house? ty. would work well on a 5 star rental.
Nice video pal. Do you try and use copper as much as you can ? I’ll assume you’ve used all that plastic to just make life easier mate.
Yer 1st fixing a job this big is a lot quicker in plastic, but I always use copper anywhere where you will see it… always do it that way
MJ get yourself a Tyvek paper suit in the van for times like that where your doing insulation or other real mucky stuff and you will be protected 👍
Horrid stuff mate
We do our secondary in copper with plastic hot supplies
Nice to know I’m not the only one… I’ve never had an issue in all the years
Does it not defeat the purpose of you using copper for the secondary return connected onto pastic? A loop in a loop and you still have pastic on the loop.
Not sure to be completely honest, I’ve never had any issues doing it this way👍🏼
Top class plumbing as usual.just wondered why secondary return has to be in copper.whats the reason behind it instead of going plastic.if you have time to reply,please do.cant get a good explanation on the internet
So many different views on it, from what I understand it’s to go with corrosion if on continuously…. However I’ve always had my secondary returns on a timer or PIR system so never had an issue even when done in plastic…
Another biggen mate!
It’ll take something special to beat the barn though.
Yes mate, another big job…… a lot of work and not quite as organised as the barn
Echo other comments, use the smallest you can for the return loop. It only needs to be a trickle to ensure hot at the outlets. Lag it to hell and back, otherwise it's just an expensive radiator, not even heating anywhere useful.
Thanks mate
Good information as usual but how do you sleep? I did a two year plumbing course at night school many years ago and as a result managed to do all my own plumbing jobs in all the properties I've owned and enjoyed it, but to do what you do especially starting on new jobs like this I just wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
Just got to get on with it mate 👍🏼👍🏼, confidence comes with time served
Massive contents and great video as always. Wonder did you change your poly pipe to this speedfit pipe? Or it just supplied by customer as you mentioned in the video.
Builder is supplying all the materials on this job mate 👍🏼👍🏼
Oof, I'd get the plastic out of the dhw circuit while you can otherwise it'll be an awkward convo with the property owner later on. We have a lot of work in a commercial building where they did this but with large plastic and it's not only made the plastic brittle but created a reaction which is pin holing the copper.
Love your videos
Thanks Rob 👍🏼👍🏼🙌🏼
Mark. I assume the secondary return idea only works the sorted hot water systems? Our kitchen sink is about 10 mtrs away form the boiler and take a while to come through.
Really good video
Thanks Mark 👍🏼👍🏼
Everyday is a school day! Great content as always mate. Is it Polypipe you use?
Thanks mate…. I use Polypipe but on this job the builder is supplying everything and it’s speedfit
Another really interesting video. Look forward to my Wednesday and Sunday fix. A random question. Do you still use bending springs? Are they still a thing? Carry on with the great content 👍
Thanks Dave……
I’ve not used a bending spring for 25years mate…. Infact I had forgot about them till you said. I’m sure people do still use them
Yes! When I started with my dad in the 70's, we had nothing else...... Though we often had to anneal the 22mm with heat otherwise the wall would collapse....Bending 22mm around your kneecaps is definitely a young mans game.... Still use a 15mm spring though!
In fact that's got me thinking about when working on (not very old) systems in those days that had 3/4" imperial pipe.... which was close..... but not close enough.... and we had to use couplings that where 3/4" one end and 22mm, the other.........
Great video
Do you need to use pump on the secondary hot water pipe?
Yea mate, bronze pump and double check valve
Would it not be better to run the primary and secondary hot in copper? of course the cold is fine in plastic.
Pete the cabby greet job
Have you got The Knowledge Pete
Hi Mark , i read one of your replies that you may be up against it because of large gang of plasterers, have you not got any mates who could help you out for a couple of days?.. Great Channel by the way.
Thanks Kev…..
Every good tradesman is very busy everywhere at the moment, I’m pushing myself slightly with this job especially when I turned up this week and they were all over the job….
Why not have all copper or all plastic? What is the advantage of mixing? Just trying to understand.
No advantages, it’s just what was fitted on the main feeds, then the return in copper.
Builder supplied all the materials etc
speed fit , hep2o etc is not designed to be hot permanently 24 hours a day 365 days a year . Even if you have your heating on permanently , it will cool down even when the stat makes and such....its never on 365 days a year , or you are running lower temp and thats not an issue. This is why they say fit a timer to secondary returns on plastic , so it can be off sometime to cool , as its running at 65C .
i found this out 20 years back when a hotel near me had 2 floods in 6 months ...when the 3rd came they got hep2o in for a claim (all 3 floods , fittings just blew off under the floor) , only to be shown the small print as they were all on secondary return pipework. think they said it was running about 5 years solid before the first flood.
Not many people run there hot water 24 hours a day with a secondary return after the first energy bill turns up , so i definitely wouldnt worry :)
multipipe and uponor etc is supposed to be ok though.
Thanks Chris 👍🏼👍🏼
Everyone does it differently, I do my secondary in copper while the hot in plastic, no issues at all
I’ve never had an issue to be honest
Regs state that as long as the 2ndry return pump is on a timer it can be all run in plastic, always has to be lagged either way timed or constant
@@sarahhelen9863 , yes quite true but why can they honour boiler primary pipework (apart from the obvious first couple of meters) which would run hotter than a hot return in most domestic cases, I personally have never run a secondary return in anything other than copper so far but if it was necessary to run one in plastic I wouldn't be that worried to do it
I think I commented on you using a plastic secondary in the two barns you done ages ago and got a DHC reply 🤣. But yeah everyone does it differently I use Copper but what ever works for you. But yeah love your content!
🤣🤣…. Thanks mate🙌🏼
Someone nice home
Markus have you got an update on the knipex plastic cutter ? Is it gone crap
Yep…. Spirals constantly mate
Thanks bro
Thanks mate
@@MJTiffPlumbing like your channel mate
Copper only for me with sec return
Been and seen plastic fail after being left on for 4months constant
Fantastic content btw and enjoy your videos
I’m not aware of a plastic pipe manufacturer who will warranty their products for use in a secondary return. You’re liability insurer would probably refuse to pay out too - that’s your choice obviously.
I don’t really get why you’d bother to run part of a rerun in 15mm copper but the rest in plastic.
The whole of the 15mm return is in copper, not part of it👍🏼
@@MJTiffPlumbing I get that, I just don’t get why you bothered to run the return leg of it in copper but the out leg in 22mm plastic.
As said, that’s how I’ve always done it with no issues.
First time I’ve ever had someone say the main hot run should be in copper aswell as the return loop.
@@MJTiffPlumbing Plastic pipe is tested to BS 7291 Class S, it’s not certified for use in continentally (or time/temperature controlled) re-circulating systems. If you read the MI’s it will tell you this.
Not sure why you think the return pipe would need to be copper but not the flow?
how come you dont do the plumbing and heating of the house surly leaving money on the table that
Ground source/air source renewables company are in to do that mate
It depends on the job, sometimes I do hot and secondary in plastic, sometimes in copper, sometimes a mix, it's designed down to size of installation. Yes it's true a timer can help prevent the deterioration of the plastic over time but if you're on a large system for a higher end client they're going to want hot water 24/7. So if people have concerns in that regard switch over to pex pipe which is often used in commercial installations around the world, often distinguishable by it's red or blue colour, flexibility and ability to "heal" when heat is introduced to it.
👍🏼👍🏼
Interesting stuff would a million buy the house.???👍👍👍😎😎😎💰💰💰
Think it’s £3m if finished to how it’s spec’d!!!!
It’s in a very high end area with a few celebs about….. Chris Eubank is a few doors up!!!
Do as I say and not as I do 😉. I’ve never seen an issue with it in plastic on timed but you definitely are not covered by the manufacturer. I guess there point is that someone will switch it to constant at some point and forget about it
Indeed mate😉
can you not use plastic pipe on secondary return? if not why is that?
Why does the secondary hot have to be in copper?
To do with consistently running
@@MJTiffPlumbing But doesn't that also apply to the primary hot?
Mark. This secondary return system is only works with stored hot water?
Is this a barn conversation?
No mate, this is a new job that I’ve just started on
So for the secondary hot is the boiler constantly heating and pumping hot water through that 24/7?
This secondary return is on a timer and will pump at set times.
The hot water is coming from the hot tank, it's not constantly being heated by the boiler (you couldn't use a secondary return on a combi boiler)
Manufacturers instructions are pretty clear. Do not use in any kind of continuously operating hot water circuit. The key words being 'any kind of'. Just use mlcp like the renewable guys instead. It's cheap and flexible and push fit and rate for use on secondary system. There is just no compelling reason to use speedfit.
What if it’s not continuous….
@@MJTiffPlumbing if you add PIRs and a timer it's still a kind of continuous hot water loop 🤷♂️. Just pony up for a press kit and a set of U jaws and join the mlcp massive. It's awesome the speed of push with the neatness of copper. You'll love it 🤘
Really need to have a go with the press fit stuff
doing one myself - which timer and PIR should I use ?
Just a 7day programmable timer or standard PIR in the bathrooms
@@MJTiffPlumbing thanks - presumably a PIR with a set say 15 min over run. Have you ever fitted both timer and PIR? My bathroom will get occasional use so timer mainly for 'legionella' 15 min cycle every 12 hours or so.
Any chance you can tell me which brand PIRs you use?
Enjoying your vids, well done.
To be honest the sparky on the jobs I’ve fitted it always sort them.
But an overrun and cycle would be perfect.
Any reason u swapped to speedfit or was that was supplied ?
Just what the builder supplied mate
Does anyone know if multilayer piping is good to use on secondary return?? I imagine it is because multilayer piping is far superior to pex and pushfit piping. Multilayer pipe has 5layers that includes an aluminium barrier.
MLCP no doubt can handle it
MLCP can, all other pipe that falls under BS7291 can't (the likes of speed fit and HEP)
@@MegaBambooboy thanks for the information. I was thinking mlcp was safe to use on secondary return.
@@Martin-pr6ps keep in mind it'll need to be used on both hot and secondary return.
@@MegaBambooboy spot on
Why can't you use plastic for the Secondary?
I think the secondary in plastic is ok depending on the manufacturers , pretty sure hep20 and speed fit say not to use it though if its constantly pumped, maybe fit it on a timer or use pex 🤷♂
Do what works for you big lad, keep up the videos 👍
Yep this is going to be on a timer, I always have them fitted onto timers so it’s not “continuous” 👍🏼👍🏼
Moved from UK to aus and I can confidently say speedfit is by far the roughest and crappest product on the market, they have ‘sharkbite’ and I havent met one plumber who would dream of using it. Its sad to see the standard of plumbing as low in the UK these days. Ps a small section of 10mm works well on slowing the return.
Thanks for watching mate, builder supplied the Speedfit, I don’t use it when supplying materials
The big house- is this the job u ended up walking away from?
Yep
Also known as a pumped DHW return
Indeed
Mark mate, you’ve done it all wrong ! Because your using plastic you just join it together and through it under the floor, no need to use clips or keeping it straight no one will ever see it 😂. Or maybe it’s just the way the so called plumber did it on a job I had to sort out last week 😰. Didn’t know if I was plumbing or friggin knitting 🤣😁. Top job again Mark 👍
🤣🤣🤣🤣….. I know exactly what you mean 🤣
The whole hot circuit should be in copper not just the return - nhbc requirement
Doesn’t this mean your get heat loss on the hot water as it’s pumping around, therefore energy costs for the pump and more heat, obviously the pros are you get instant hot water everywhere.
There is a question with this actual thing, and some people are now longer fitting secondary circuits
Plumb the kaunt out of it young tiff
🤣🤣
hi m8 sort of understood it lol have you found your getting more work from doing utube
Thanks mate…. I’ve had a few jobs come in from YT… but to be honest I’m always busy
5 bathrooms - meanwhile in Wythenshawe, families are sat freezing cos they can't afford to put the heating on. Disgusting.
DHC
IT needs tot be in Cooper cause of the temperature you should tell Them that !!! And also why IT needs to be Cooper instead of plastic