While I do agree with most of the logic found in the video, the theory that Sonic's time travel works on multiverse theory due to the continuity error in Forces is actually just one of the game's many errors that SEGA and the new lore team has been trying to quash, with multiple interviews, the IDW comics (which are canon) and two entire episodes of Tailstube dedicated to showing that this isn't the case and killing the theory. Even the Generations remake changes the ending to show that time travel will cause people to forget ala Dr. Who. TLDR: Forces is just full of errors and Sonic has only one timeline that can change. (on a side note the Two Worlds thing was also clarified to be two cultures, animal people live on the islands, while humans live on the continents mostly, the planet itself is called Earth)
In my own opinion I think bowser would win a little be more since unlike eggmans army bowsers heavy hiters like king boo can't die and not to mention boo can turn Invisible and could just trap most of eggmans army in a different reality or even worse just take over eggman and not to mention alot of eggmans army are either weak to magic or they don't have any counters to magic I mean kamek could turn eggman or metal into sand if he wanted to and if that didn't work bowser could just wish the army out of existence besides time eater or possibly infinite
Alright I do respect your opinion but do feel like you did a bad job debunking death battles Eggman vs bowser, I will explain why. “Bowser is not stronger then yoshi bc yoshi has beat him multiple times” True but this can easily be debunked, (1) this is a weaker bowser all the insane feats did not occur after theses games came out like taking over the universe or better yet one shotting Mario and (2) this can be plot armor as well. “Bowser can’t keep up with Eggman or his army bc he can’t past the speed of light” He can go way beyond the speed of light, He has beat culex who exists in the past present and future witch is immeasurable speed He has beat Mario in Mario odyssey he gets one shot by him, and Mario can casually walk in tic toc clock in Mario 64 witch is basically time and space where time stops goes forward or goes back and Mario can walk casually in it. And bowser can casually go through space in time which he does trying to kill baby Mario. Also they did show speed feats it was in the black box which I won’t blame you for missing it “Dreamy bowser is not multiverse bc the dream world is not a universe” Mario Party 5 Dream Depot was confirmed directly by Misstar and by the manual (page 28) to turn its dreams into universes. And there’s infinite universes in the dream depot. “Grand stars and power stars are not plentiful bc in Mario galaxy there are only 120 or 150 power stars and grand stars” This is a terrible argument not like every other game has power stars like Mario 64 and even if you want to use this argument power stars have stoped bowsers galaxy reactor, which was going to the destroy the universe that includes all of the galaxies and one of them is called matter splatter galaxy and that galaxy is a super space and destroying a super space will will make you complex Multiverse that would make the power stars and grand stars 5D level. “Eggmans army is better” The only thing you say is that infinite can make clones which are not that strong bc they can get one shotted and not like bowser can clone his army as well with the dream stone which is far better then infinites clones. And what do you mean the power ups won’t matter? When the ice flower can literally freeze the sun it’s sated in Mario and Luigi brothership. that would make that sun infinite made useless. “Bowser is not smart or imaginative to use the wonder flower correctly” Did you even play a Mario game? He is very imaginative he has use different techniques to stop Mario in almost every game and he is pretty smart he is not dumb he can build a time machine. Overall I have to say which I’m saying in the nicest why possible but this video was awfully bad, but I do respect you for being very civil and not being toxic to death battle and wanting to hear other peoples thoughts about this debunk video is a nice touch.
@@bobhandsome4606 No offense, but these are pretty weak rebuttals. As much as I respect your opinion, I don't believe any of these. 1. All of the examples of Yoshi beating Bowser have featured a Bowser that is stronger than the previous one. Hell, by Yoshi's New Island, he was fighting against a modern-day Bowser in his giant form no less, and all it took was throwing giant eggs at him. This isn't plot armor either as it's happened in half of the Yoshi games. 2. First of all, Culex is not omnipresent throughout time and space. He never says anything like that. He just shows up, says he's gonna destroy the multiverse, fights Mario and co., and then f***s off forever. Second of all, Tick-Tock Clock is the literal inside of a clock, not this weird time dimension. The mechanisms moving faster or slower depending on the time you entered is little more than a gameplay mechanic. Third, being able to time travel with magic does not make you faster than light. He's not running fast enough to go back in time or anything. He's just using magic to make a portal to the past. 3. Except the Dream depot in Mario Party 5 is not at all related to the Dream World or Dream Stone from Mario & Luigi Dream Team. You are using a separate, barely related thing to try to prove a different, barely related thing. 4. First, I didn't include the Mario 64 Power Stars because much like Shine Sprites and Power Moons, they are not the same as Galaxy Power Stars due to their significantly weaker power and different purposes. Second, you saying that one Galaxy that has anti-matter eating through space makes the Galaxy 5D (whatever the hell that means) is such a stretch when the only thing you have to go off of is anti-matter doing what is does and erasing matter. You're just saying words without actually explaining anything. Third, the Lumas were the ones to stop the Galaxy Reactor, not the Power Stars. There is a difference. 5. It wasn't just the clones I mentioned for Infinite. Not only are those clones better than the Dream Stone clones as they're just more of the same cannon fodder we've seen since the first Mario game, but Infinite can wipe out most of the army by dropping a star onto the battlefield. AND he's too fast for most of them to even perceive and too powerful for most of them to take on directly. Also, you're really gonna take ONE statement from Brothership as undeniable fact even though the Ice Flower is shown in every other game to not be as powerful as what you suggest? And even if it was, they'd never hit Eggman's best machines. 6. My comment about Bowser not being very imaginative came from his use of the Wonder Flower in Super Mario Bros Wonder. He had the power to shape the world to his liking, yet all he did was fuse with a castle and make a flashy rock concert. He could've transformed Mario into a goomba and smashed him then and there, but he didn't. Even in other games where he gets new techniques to use, more often than not, they're from stolen artifacts he's collected, and when they're not, they still just involve his go-to strategy of "punch it really hard". Compare this to Eggman who's a genius inventor and brilliant strategist, Bowser's a simpleton. I appreciate the respectful comments, but I don't see how your arguments disprove my own.
Its good to see a unique take on it while being civil and not just being like other debunk channels where they insult death battle because they researched a character differently
*5:38* to add more to this, im pretty sure bowser survived two different massive black holes rather than only one, one in what i assume to be mario party 9, and another in mario galaxy 2
As an avid Bowser supporter, I’ll just throw around a couple more arguments that I don’t see many people bring up: A. Survivability. At most you can argue Eggman having access to rings, which can shield SOME damage, but ultimately are easily overcome through most of Bowser’s win-cons. Meanwhile, most of Eggman’s options can’t really get past Bowser’s arsenal of 1-UPs and Retry Clocks that are able to restore or rewind upon Bowser’s death to keep him going. B. Bowser’s item manipulation is more than just a couple magical options. Boos naturally steal, and they steal a lot. They can easily slip through Eggman’s forces and take away all his items, especially with intangibility and invisibility. Also, pretty much any enemy can pull out a Plunder Chest to try their luck at stealing a macguffin any time. C. Boos in general are actually a huge pain to Eggman. They can produce Spirit Balls, which can possess things on contact (even tech!) or make them intangible to incapacitate them. D. Power Stars have far more hax than most people give them credit for. Notably, Mini Stars (Which are weaker than Power Stars) can erase groups of clones all at once. Therefore, even just one Power Star, which is 5 Mini Stars IIRC, should be able to mass erase portions of Eggman’s army, and the Grand Stars should reasonably do it on an even greater scale. E. Those clones I mentioned are from Bowser’s Bubble Towers, multiple structures which automatically produce clones far stronger than either’s foot soldiers. In contrast, the copies from the Phantom Ruby are manual and only base Sonic level threats, making them fair inferior. Not to mention there are only three Phantom Rubies while even more Bubble Towers can be raised easily. F. Iggy. Goddamn. Koopa. Even if you argue Eggman’s heavy hitters can win via stats, this little guy can swap their stats around with some random Goomba and suddenly that’s soloing most of the Eggman Empire while strong options like Super Neo Metal are reduced to a mere foot soldier. G. Bowser Jr is also notable too. He can create status-blocking shields, just in case Eggman ever thought he could win via Hax, and can make portals with his paint, letting him bring the army basically wherever, including just in Eggman’s in-use mech. H. In general, his father is more versatile than given credit for. Bowser’s Bowser Space is far more potent than any other of the Koopa Troop’s stealing magic, capable of cleaning out entire arsenals in an instant, which would basically immediately remove the majority of Eggman’s options. Also, he has crazy arena control with inhales and gravity magic, and can use his own power-null by literally just eating or ground-pounding opponents’ choices in a fight. I. This’ll probably be my last point, but there’s two Kameks btw, like, Kammy Koopa exists and has even more broken magic than Kamek. Sorry Eggman, your robots are cool, but they’re slippers now.
I want to bring up a couple of counter for your argument, the ones that i don't brought up are the ones that i agree with. 1. Eggman doesn't exactly have that much items to steal, the ones that he probably have is the chaos emeralds (which is most likely going to be absorb by metal or being guard tightly) the master emerald (which im not sure if he should have that or not) the phantom ruby (which he shouldn't even have considering all of ot was destroyed by the end of force). 2. Wouldn't the mini star also damage his own army. 3. In secret rings, base sonic defeat erazor djinn who have absorb 100 universe and that is a weaker version of sonic as sonic become stronger after each game. 4. Im not sure if iggy could even perceive super neo metal sonic and super neo metal sonic could also copied his and the other magician ability and yes he could do it. In sonic rivals he was shown to have the ability to copy silver telekinesis. 5. If bowser use in hales or a ground pound he would also hurt his own army. 6. Wouldn't that just applied to the robot that couldn't fly even then the robot that are effected becomes kamikazed attacker.
@@andikaaherdiyanto917I feel like that statement of sonic becoming stronger each game is untrue just look at forces how he got jumped by all his last foes sonic could’ve easily speed blitz them also don’t forget how super sonic wasn’t enough for the titans and had trouble with them and one of the titans shot a laser to him and got taken out of his super form and made the chaos emeralds separate
@@st2k27 2 of those clones are shadow and metal sonic, 2 characters who are also growing stronger alongside him and factoring infinite (who was stated to be sonic strongest at that point in time) in the equation of course he is going to lose. As for the titans and the end, it's not that super sonic is weak, it's just that the titans and the end is just that strong.
Quick thing about The Dreamstone, Dreams in Mario are generally seen as Universal in Nature, partly due to the Dream Depot on Mario Party, an infinite storage for the dreams of every single person to ever fall asleep so that the Star Sprites can sort through them and decide whether to grant thei wishes or not with the Star Rod. Mario 2 also supports this idea along with Dream Team, so Dream Scaling can be really funky
27:55 I'm guessing the size of the death egg robot MK 2 (the black death egg robots in sonic forces) was used and the design changed for eggman to manually control.
It’s always important to look at the text boxes that occasionally appear as well as the rules of death battle. The text boxes provide extra context to the analysis as well as specifics in why one wins over the other (eg. bowser’s army numbering over 98 million). The rules (which you can find in tv tropes) are there to ensure as fair a fight for both sides as possible (eg. non canon arsenal can be used as long as it is official and isn’t too far removed from original canon).
To be honest, it's hard to be mad for bowser winning because their are so many arguments for either side, so honestly I just watched the fight for enjoyment only
This is one of first times where seeing a “debunk” video didn’t make me grown or believe the person was wrong. This video feels more like a “Here’s my argument” than a “This is why you’re wrong” which makes this better to sit through. I still like Bowser to win but this video made me not feel angry when someone says Eggman should have won anymore. Overall good job!
@@CorruptPico you're definitely right😅 honestly I'm fine with eggman losing I agree he should have won but I'm fine with it the battle was fun to watch
22:15 Though it is true that they've been drained of their power, these scenarios don't actually debunk the emeralds having unlimited power. Weird as that may sound, these are still fictional characters we're talking about. If a blue hedgehog can move at and beyond the speed of light, sources of infinite power can be suppressed, drained, and even surpassed. Firstly, the instances themselves are rare, only 2 of note, and one of them required an unspecified amount of prep time using tools that were specifically made to handle their power. Furthermore, the feats that support the characters' claims that they have infinite power outnumber the instances of them being drained of power. Ranging from multiversal mechs to time consuming eldritch deities of limitless power. It's also important to consider this, if such claims are blatantly untrue, then why have them repeated in later games? Comics too. FOR DECADES. They also can't be hyperbolic statements as the characters have repeatedly used the gems, two of whom are literal geniuses, so it's not like they don't know what they're talking about.
Playing around with what it means to have infinite power just makes things really confusing. It basically becomes that absurd "My Much Bigger Infinity vs Your Much Smaller Infinity" situation in Xeno Trunks vs Archie Silver. Infinity by definition has no limit, making it literally impossible in any sense to surpass it, yet we're supposed to believe that in several different franchises that you can surpass infinity? It's dumb. Now as for the Chaos Emeralds, many have claimed them to have unlimited power, but as I said in the video, there are just as many instances where their power has been bypassed and even drained. Sonic Adventure 1: Perfect Chaos briefly drains them of their negative energy. Sonic Rush: The Sol Emeralds are also briefly drained of their energy, and the Egg Salamander has two attacks that can bypass the invincibility of Super Sonic and Burning Blaze. Sonic 06: Solaris can damage all three Super hogs, invincibility be damned. Sonic Unleashed: A major plot point of that game is restoring power to the Chaos Emeralds after Eggman completely drained them, and Perfect Dark Gaia can bypass Super Sonic's invincibility too. Sonic Frontiers: Sage directly says that Super Sonic can't fight The End alone and needs either the assistance of Supreme or the cyber energy needed to become Super Sonic 2. What, are you gonna say The End is somehow MORE infinite than the Chaos Emeralds? You can have multiple people say the same thing over and over, but if there are multiple instances where the statements are disproven, then I won't take them as fact.
@@tonysonic456 It can be confusing and even absurd; I'll give you that, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. Again, this is fiction, draining or surpassing infinite power is not unheard of. Again, these aren't just baseless statements, the characters literally have firsthand experiences using them and have consistently stuck to this claim of infinite power. By your logic, there can't be an infinite number of positive integers because they start at 1. As for these bosses damaging the super forms, they either have some sort of higher dimensional power or a power akin to the emeralds themselves. Case in point, Egg Salamander was using the power of the Sol Emeralds and Dark Gaia has a connection to the Chaos Emeralds in some way too and also has an infinite power statement. Solaris is a super dimensional being. By definition, his power surpasses any level of lower dimensional power. Even if it's infinite. To put this into perspective, Solaris destroying a timeline is a 4D feat, thus he would surpass infinite 3D power. The super hogs fighting such a being would mean their power would be of the same level. Same would apply to Egg Salamander who was a threat to 2 separate spacetimes, Time Eater who performs a similar feat to Solaris, and The End who surpasses them through scaling.
@@PiffleNEO i figured it out, because i was writing that AS the scene had just happened, because i'm one of those people who comments immediately on something i see without finishing the video first. i checked the description, and you weren't there either.
Yeah ik. There are some stuff I disagree with (like Arabian Nights is prolly closer to 2 universes than 1000 seeing as Sonic can view the different worlds from within other worlds, and Lightman’s prep time can be cancelled out with the time stones, and there is actually a large amount of evidence for infinite Sonic cosmology, more than Mario for sure), but I think I’m ready, as you are, to move on. I disagree with the episode, but it was very good and that’s all I can ask for.
@@mynameisntimportant1374 Only evidence for Mario is dream depot, which Maginaryworld outclassed via statements of absorbing dreams from across the whole multiverse and being infinite size via SoftBank magazine, plus Sonic having infinite timelines, infinite cyberspace and Otherworld from Sonic channel, endless white space between dimensions, dimensions outside of space time like null space and the end of time, and higher dimensional cosmology due to the existence of hyperspace and four d space created by warping spatial laws. At best they’re even but usually Sonic has an edge
I think the biggest problem for Eggman's tech is that the best of the best require eother the Chaos Emeralds or Master Emerald to power them, limiting to about 2 or 3 being usable at a time, while Bowser can swap more or less at will.
@@EeveeShadowBacon Time eater, Egg wizard, Metal overlord, Lightman, phantom king (and Supreme if you give it to him). These are all multiversal beings that don't need the chaos or master emerald. And Eggman doesn't even need the emeralds to physically be present inside his mechs in order to power them. All he needs is their energy, he does this with the egg salamander which takes the sol emeralds energy and then Blaze and Sonic use it right after. He has a chaos energy extractor and cannon that he uses to power up dark Gaia and transform Neo metal into his super form in Sonic speed simulator. Nothing stopping Eggman from jumping Bowser with multiple multiversal mechs, along with Sage being able to pilot them, time eater being shown to act on its own, and possibly Eggman nega or classic Eggman joining since they both work with him willingly
You are actually one of the few people who disagreed with the death battle while still shows no disrespect towards the show or people who work on them, while still showing them the respect they deserve for such an great episode. You have earned an extra subscriber today for that
Please tell me I’m not the only one who finds it hilarious that they say ‘context is key’ yet they fail to recognise multiple moments of context in the conclusion
I somehow said the same thing about Deku vs Asta way back when on my main channel when I was talking about how half-assed their research was on both of the characters (mainly Asta even though they decided to give him the win).
Yall don’t mention it but I wanna drop something. Bowser defending his troops in his fury form is unlikely since he’s literally in an uncontrollable FURY, however given the fact how neo metal has betrayed eggman and yet we see that form staying loyal I’m willing to overlook that as a minor misconception. We could argue about them but the only compromise I see is now metal is stuck in base. Still op but still
You have a point with Fury Bowser, but in the IDW comics, Metal himself states that Eggman removed his rebellious nature from his programming. So he could take the Neo and Super Neo forms yet still be loyal to Eggman.
@ so who said that the books were canon. Yeah I know Ian Flynn is writing for sonic team now and has snuck in some references but that doesn’t really make it canon does it?Like I’m fine with speculation and trying to make it fit but all I wanna know is who said they were canon. I recall an interview where Ian specifically even says there non canon. TLDR- plzz gimme a legit source to why the comics are canon and I’ll shut up
@@RedX03death battle literally used IDW comics. character that only appeared in IDW comics was mentioned in frontiers, Ian Flynn stated that they are canon
During the end of the debate, you were making it sound like Bowser is an idiot. But in fact, he's very ingenius.... but his own ego and clumsiness counters his smarts. When it comes to direct assaults, he can be very smart. But, he utterly refuses via his ego to use deception. Example: Bowser could fight to lead his foes to an area where more of his horde is. A more deceptive one would have those extra horde pincer attack. Bowser wouldn't due to ego, and instead just have his currently attacking troops back off to recover while using the horde that showed up to replace them. And if he were to pull a pincer attack, he would be direct about it, having his force split to either side right in front of their eyes to come from multiple directions. Basically, he's smart with strategies, but his clumsiness and pride hinders his smarts. ....mind you, he STILL doesn't compare to Eggman's smarts, but it's closer than one would first assume due to how many times Bowser has wound up his own worst enemy from either clumsiness or ego.
In the Shadow Generations Re-Write Eggman said that he would reshape the timeline as he sees fit, which implies that the time eater has reality warping powers too, which would make sense since the Time Eater made white space and yes Sonics Multiverse is infinte due to being stated by Ian and Tails Tube, one feat that no one brought up is that in IDW Eggman was able to bend space and time on his own and create an infinite virtual dimension as stated in the Bumble Cast, the Pure Hearts also can be some sort of "Killed" like in Chapter 6 where a Pure Heart was erased by the Void and could only be restored by one character and to meet her you need to die, which would be counter productive for Bowser as he would have to take the L, the pure hearts can restore erased dimensions but they can be erased as well and the Time Eater could do the Void Ritual thing which took weeks in one snap To the Bowser feats in the vid 1.Cherry Copies are one tap 2. The Animation is purely for entertainment and shouldnt be taken for granted for the real scale situation 3. The Chaos Emeralds could nullify any manipulation done by Wonder Flower as the Time Eaters Reality Manipulation had effect on the emeralds either or Zavok protecting himself from the Metal Virus with one chaos emerald alone via tech, what would stop Eggman from doing it to his whole army if its his tech 4. I have no idea what they did in Unleashed, it was really a one timer there maybe Ian will explain this one day
I think I totally disagree, I mean, Bowser has survived getting turned into a skeleton, while Eggman is just a human. But it doesn't matter who wins, This fight is awesome.
32:25 in the idw comics the metal virus is stated from starline to be transmutation. Sonic was being tranmuted and going super was able to reverse it (sure he wasn't fully transmutated, but sonic was almost fully turned) So super neo should be able to over power said transmutation of the wonder flower.
Gotta be honest, was not expecting this to be a lot different from the usual Debunk videos which is refreshing and as for the Eeath Egg Robot used for the animation that’s most likely a fusion between the movie and the games to make this fight more cinematic. And while I still have to disagree on your takes as there are stuff that your friend didn’t bring up that can bring the Mario cosmology up to the multiversal + and infinite speed rang i’m not gonna get into it VS debating is subjected so it could’ve gone either way for both. And while I personally don’t mine if we get more Mario vs Sonic match ups as I believe almost any matchup can be great if executed correctly it is about time we look for other matchups for the franchises (until we get Archie Sonic vs Super Mario Kun) than well, finally be done anyway Happy New Years Tony.
I didn't bring up a lot because i didn't wanna overbloat the video, it was still his debunk, so i didn't wanna get into these points that other people who still advocate for bowser have already probably said. I came to give my more unique points and leave basically :T
Some points I wanna bring up here 1. Dreamy Bowser cant use wishes, otherwise he would have just wished Mario and Luigi away like he was about to do with the Dream Stone prior to it being destroyed. Since Metal Sonic, Sage, and the entire E-100 series of robots are faster than Bowser any one of them can speedblitz him to destroy the stone, especially since Bowser would be on the frontlines. 2. Infinite summoning an artificial sun would be a large enough threat to Bowser's army that he would have to pull something big/important out to get rid of it. Not only would the sun destroy like 90% of Bowser's army, but it would also destroy the Boos just by being made because they are weak to light/sunlight. 3. The Metal Virus is actually fairly strong and would need to be immediately taken out because it adapts extremely quickly. It was able to adapt to Sonic's magical speed that restores time and space, it adapted to infect Shadow who should be immune to diseases and viruses, and it was only through Silver's psychokenisis that specifically counters technology (Ian Flynn mentioned this on his Podcast) as well as chaos energy (also a counter) that they were able to rip the Metal Virus off and throw it into the sun. Eggman and Sonic characters have various methods of transmutation, so it's likely that transmutation magic wouldnt be enough or at the very least the virus could adapt to be unaffected. If this got out of hand it would also force Bowser to bring out some sort of wish granting item. 4. King Boo can put people in another dimension but most important characters on Eggman's side would have a way out, if not alone than with the help of another. Infinite's Null Space was stated to be inescapable and would prevent people that could travel dimensions from doing so because it's "closed-off" from other other dimensions. 5. Bowser cant control his Fury form. He even endangered Bowser Jr. while using that form because he was out of control. He probably would focus on the Death Egg Robot or whatever is the biggest enemy but he would likely damage his own army while fighting and probably wouldnt use items nor jump infront of the Death Egg Space Station's beam.
Tbf some points are actually true I agree with 5 since fury bowser is a hothead and same with 4 but it’s both sides as far as dreamy bowser goes dreamy bowser didn’t work because of the power of friendship as Mario and Luigi hear the cries off peach which hit thems with realisation now eggman doesn’t care about any of his people so I doubt he’ll use the power of friendship unless it’s sage the whole sun thing Kamek can quite Literally just delete it because he can also he can just give bowsers army the abilities of bowser that way it’s basically a load of bowsers vs eggman and for number 3 metal virus in the Mario RPG games bowsers army has some bs called loyalty heart or smth like that where they are unable to turn side as they see bowser as there only leader when you use spells so metal virus will most likely not work
@Jingobingo-d4m "as far as dreamy bowser goes dreamy bowser didn’t work because of the power of friendship" Dreamy Bowser is just a stat amp from what I've seen. You're saying the power of friendship is what protected them? Then why was Bowser about to wish them away with the Dream Stone? They certainly seemed desperate to stop him from doing that so clearly it would have worked then and if Dreamy Bowser had that power still then it would have worked in that form too. " the whole sun thing Kamek can quite Literally just delete it because he can" Proof? Also, just making it would destroy the Boos anyways. "he can also he can just give bowsers army the abilities of bowser" Do you have any proof he did this on a mass scale? " bowsers army has some bs called loyalty heart or smth like that where they are unable to turn side" The Metal Virus isnt mind control in the traditional sense. It makes people into mindless zombies. Even then, it'd just adapt. It's the JJK Mahoraga of viruses.
@@autisonm looking at this on a more statistical value if it isn’t mind control and takes control of the brain judging from the fact that they become dry bones and other bone creatures when being burned or killed I’m gunna assume there anatomy is different as they clearly don’t have a brain if they can come back casually and the whole Kamek turning things into bowser in super Mario 3D land goomba and power ups being the leaf are shown when u kill bowser on the bridge while still having all his abilities and his immunity’s the boos ain’t rly a massive thing to loose let’s be real king boo is probably the only one but he isn’t weak to light so it wouldn’t work and the whole Kamek thing is quite literally in paper Mario he destroys Mario and Luigi’s items like nothing right at the start before the turns start and it isn’t paper Kamek since Kamek was fighting with paper Kamek when it happened and both used the wand
@@autisonm the reason I said the power of friendship for dreamy bowser if u watch the clip when Mario and Luigi are vanishing you see peach screaming there names and it brings them back clearly it’s either friendship or some memories returning type thing either way eggman doesn’t care about any android except sage and possible metal the problem is Mario isn’t a set game so every game will add more and more powers for each member while sonics is a lot more laid down if we don’t include the comics it’s like dragon ball z where they slowly get stronger each time while Mario is just random new power that’s why the longer Mario goes on the more likely it is for bowser and Mario to win the battle that’s why sonic is now losing to Mario his power just went up each game
Wait E-1000 are fast? I thought all they did was just stand there and shoot I thought only E-102 gamma and omega were only able to move fast and they don’t work for Eggman anymore so I’m I missing something
Alright, but in all seriousness, I do agree on some points. Eggman’s full arsenal didn’t feel taken into account, but Bowser had a counter for each of them regardless. While Sonic feels more grounded in reality (Or as close to grounded in reality as a blue hedgehog fighting a fat balding man can be, anyways) and tries to have an explanation for everything, Mario just feels more cartoonishly strong. I also have to say that, yeah, the Star Launcher argument does feel dumb, given that it’s a feat Mario has never done outside of utilising the launchers and shouldn’t be considered a regular feat for Mario, Eggman definitely has an advantage in the speed department and it’s not even close. The Dream Stone + Star Rod and Chaos Emeralds + Phantom Ruby in Infinite’s hands, (Among other universe altering things in the Sonic and Mario universes)are, albeit incredibly strong, REALLY hard to find an exact way of quantifying their power. Don’t get me wrong, I felt it should’ve been factored in just as much as the next guy, but to say it’s difficult to work out who would win of different forces of that kind of power, would be a severe understatement at best. Look, as much as I wanna say Eggman’s army’s speed and power feats treat Bowser’s own… No. I stand by the strength statement I brought up earlier, Neither of these franchises were designed with Power Scaling stuff in mind, but Mario especially has such little regard that it’s just… Not close, Kamek, King Boo, power ups like the Double Cherries, Invincibility stars, it just becomes absurd. I’m sorry, I grew up on an unhealthy amount of Sonic stuff as well, but even I can’t deny that it’s just impossible to beat something like Bowser’s army, makes you wonder how Mario does it every time.
@@tigerlover2853 Eggman also has counters for Bowsers army and for bowser's own hax so yeah, not really a good point. Neither is saying "bowser feels more cartonish" when both are fictional and both have feats that can apply or not, it's just a way to disregard feats in favor of the "cartoon" character. Kamek is physically weak, King Boo doesn't have hax close to Infinite at all, the power ups can be counter haxed, invincibility isn't an issue since Eggman can hurt Super Sonic so he has counters to that too. Yeah, no. Don't give that soppy point of "I love both but there is just no way" while you don't even tackle on the very well made points, had to say it, the video made.
Just want to let you know, when you were talking about the the universes per timeline for sonic you forget about maginary world existing in each timeline as well.
I mean. It's hard to believe that the grand stars can beat the chaos emeralds even though it's acknowledged that they're not as strong. Having thousands of power stars compared to 7 chaos emeralds feels irrelevant since the emeralds are implied to have limitless energy right? Or am I wrong on that? Now, they both have time limits. So maybe that can be a reason to put them in a tie.
I don't know if the Grand Stars have a time limit, but I explain in the video why it doesn't matter if Bowser used all 14-20 Grand Stars since the seven Chaos Emeralds are far more powerful than all the Grand Stars combined.
The thing your friend neglects to realize, intentional or not, is that the super form is a walking anti hax. Therefore, you couldn't wish Metal away once he transforms. Plus, he even states that Bowser's clones lack his durability. Whereas clones made by the phantom ruby are equal to the originals in every stat. Nothing stops Eggman from spamming endless clones of Metal Sonic, all of which scale above Bowser. Bowser's best speed feat puts him at inaccessible, which is a tier below immeasurable. Tails states that "when the Sonics accelerate through time, they fix space, returning color and life." That's the definition of immeasurable speed. Metal Sonic is stated to be Sonic's equal and Infinite is stated to be the strongest foe Sonic has faced. That puts both of them at immeasurable speed. So what you're telling me is Bowser has clones of equal speed to himself, meaning they would ALSO get blitzed due to the huge speed gap, they don't have nearly as much durability as Bowser does, which is still lower than that of Eggman's best, AND Bowser can't even wish them away as I previously mentioned. If all of that wasn't bad enough, there are MULTIPLE phantom rubies. I don't know why Eggman was only given one. They also didn't give him the Hard Boiled Heavies or his super form, which could have been his wincon since DB takes characters at their best. If he doesn't get all his forms, Kamek shouldn't get chance time They also incorrectly scale the death egg robot. They used a feat from "A" death egg robot, but not THE death egg robot. There's a big difference between the main death egg robot and one of the mass produced versions in Forces. They also incorrectly describe the phantom ruby as illusion. It really manipulates reality. Tails says "as long as we're under its control, it's part of our reality." If that wasn't enough, Eggman was about to drop the sun on them, which he said himself would wipe them out. Why would he expect them to be finished off by an illusion? If it weren't real, it couldn't physically kill them. I concede that Forces is plagued by bad witting, but the fact of the matter is that the phantom ruby manipulates reality for real, despite what DB and other parts of Forces led you to believe The only way Bowser stands a chance is in equal stats or 1v1 with just hands. Most of his machines scale to Sonic, who outright clears Bowser on the sheer basis of much better feats. As for the Wonder Flower, I reiterate that super is an anti hax so you can't transmutate a super. He also says that certain items "would do something. Not much, but something," which doesn't weigh on the fight at all if you yourself said it won't do much This comment comes from someone raised on Mario games, so I want none of those bias accusations, sorry for writing my own Bible
I respectfully agree at the very end of the video. Unless they are willing to do a 3rd matchup between Mario and Sonic, I just feel like ScrewAttack/DB should not do another Mario VS Sonic character matchup, or better yet leave Sonic out of it entirely. I've said in one of the community posts a few months ago that if their opponents (from Mario or not) have feats that are much greater or makes no sense to be overpowered than theirs, it's literally enough to make Sonic fans hyperactively angry as hell, *EVEN* more than they already have been.
I like really this video and certainly better than most of the other debunk videos out there. Question for Piffle is Can Eggman’s Army just speed blitz The Koopa Troop before Bowser gets a hold of the cherry item or Kamek swapping the chaos emeralds?
I think something that gets lost in this debates that Death Battle actually took into account, are the characters character. To be fair, i am not that familiar with Sonic as a whole, but one of Eggmans biggest character flaws is that he for all his intellect rarely seem to think things through. The best example i know is Sonic Unleashed, where Eggman didn`t anticipate Dark Gaia to collapse at the beginning ("I don`t care about its weight issues.") or to simply lash out at him, like it did at the end. The reason Sage, Metal Sonic and Infinite are the only ones accompaning Eggman is that things like the Time Eater are an unstable factor due to having their own consciousness, a risk Eggman wouldn`t want to take or Sage propably advised against. Metal and Infinite are loyal to Eggman due to him being their power supplier/repair guy. Speaking of, Sage for all her strengths is still bound by what Eggman authorizes and what not. Her calculations are limited through that. Also i think the "can think up millions of strategies in seconds" is a bit oversold. In an active battle every second is a changing factor that has to be re-calculated. And a calculator can be beaten by simply deciding to wing it. I am not sure, but doesn`t Neo Metal also has the problem that the moment things are going his way, his Ego gets the better of him? Pretty sure he could easily fall for a trap like King Boos painting, the moment this happens. Also i think his copy ability is a bit oversold, cause well, you have to witness something to be able to copy it, which in a huge scale battle is a bit much. Also Infinite, well what is there to say. Infinite has clearly an ego problem. He loves to flaunt his power in everyones face, which is why he was easily blindsided by King Boos summoned Thwomp. Also, unlike Metal, his power hinges on the Phantom Ruby, so he is easily out of the fight the moment he loses it. (Which also applies to King Boo and his crown.) Compared to Bowser and his forces: Bowsers and King Boos biggest flaws are their anger issues. However they also draw strength from that. Not only are they pulling out all the stops the moment they get mad (with King Boo to a suicidal extent) in Bowsers case it also amplifies him physically. I think this can be counted as the reason why Dream Fury Bowsers beam overpowered Neo Metals. Bowser was "all gas, no breaks" in that moment, while by the time Neo realised that he has to give more, it was already too late. (Also yeah, combining power-ups is also something that Death Battle took into account.) Regarding Kamek and Bowser Jr. their characters are not that flawed. Even Juniors brattier side is usually put aside the moment things get serious. Metal sure did the right thing by punching Kamek out of the fight though, considering how Kamek usually amplifies Bowser even in powered-up states. The one thing i am not sure is legit, is Jr.s paint stopping Neo Metal for a few seconds. In regards of powers Death Battle also didn`t show Bowser Jr. and his mechs and Bowsers ships or King Boos technomantic powers (he was able to pull Luigi out of E. Gadds teleportation and into his dimension at the end of Luigis mansion 2). But i think Death Battle was going for a magic vs. technology matchup, which also influenced the fight in Bowsers favor, since magic trumps tech.
This matchup is so good, but the one issue I have with it is the amount of interpretation required for the winner to be clear. For example: Eggman and Bowser could potentially both reach infinite tiers of strength and immesurable speeds using the dreamstone and solaris, but if the high ends are used for both then the debate still has insane nuance with one argument I find disingenuous about it being Bowsers natural body being that strong is a bigger advantage than Eggman having it across different mechs. Depending on how you interpret the final cutscene of frontiers Eggman could have Sage control those other mechs with her also potentially still having the Titans. Aside from this a big factor in this debate is the validity in statements as both are their own hypemen and can't be taken at face value. Eggman doing this in essentially every game bragging stating it would be impossible to defeat him (I am currently blanking on specific examples, but he does it a lot) and Bowser stating that he could just erase Mario immediately (like, I dont understand why he didnt do it then, if somebody knows please tell me). However, the statements made by guides should be more reliable to use as they aren't said as boast, but to assess the insane scale of it all. The reason I bring this up is infinite being stated to be the most powerful enemy they have faced yet (this potentially meaning that he is above solaris) with sonic succeeding in beating him in base form. Despite the debate tho I am incredibly happy with the episode and I think this is one of the best death battles.
Bowser saying he can wipe away Mario and Luigi and then not doing that is all down to a single reason. In Dream Team, Bowser is ABOUT to remove Mario and Luigi’s permits to exist, when he’s interrupted by Peach and Starlow. Like Boomstick says at the end of the video, Bowser’s not an idiot, usually. He’s smart enough to grasp the concept that as long as he’s holding the Dream Stone, he’s basically God. As long as he’s _holding_ it. He’s also smart enough to realize that so long as he has to keep a hold of the Dream Stone to keep it to his advantage, it can be taken out of his hold. And the Mario Bros have pulled the “I know you win but we win” card before. So, a simple solution. Get rid of them now. Assert himself as supreme, unchallenged ruler of the entire Universe, or Multiverse if he wants to go that high, then put steps in place (or have Kamek do it) to ensure that the new rule can’t simply be swept away the way it was introduced. He’ll just bring the Bros back when he’s done and (be) beat(en by) them then. But then someone did yoink the stone from him, just not the Mario Bros. When he inhaled the Dream Stone’s Fragments? Became Dreamy Bowser? All bets were off. Mario and Luigi are still the pair of thorns in his side that have annoyed him for (approaching) four decades as of this comment. Now? Now the bros have to painfully beat the power out of Bowser, because there was NO “yoinking” it at that point. He’s hated them longer than Sonic’s even been a game series, and now that this power was reliably in his control? Bowser at that point was going to make them regret every Goomba stomped, Koopa kicked, Castle crushed, and plan foiled for every moment they’ve even known each other existed. It’s *personal* Eggman, when throttling Dr Starline, boldly proclaimed that he doesn’t simply carpet bomb Sonic because it would be too easy (it also wouldn’t work, but I doubt Eggman really cared when he was stressing his point) and that there was a _right_ way to eliminate a long time nemesis. Bombing is simply to impersonal, simply removing them from existence without much grandeur is too impersonal, and between Bowser and Mario? Things are VERY personal. Getting rid of them is the smart thing to do, but not enough for Bowser to outright ignore the years of losses dealt to him by their hands. He’s going to make sure that if their rivalry ends it’s ONE way and one way ONLY. A no-holds-barred fight to the end between the Mario Bros and the Koopa King.
@I.T.P tbf this argument kind of supports the theory that Bowser wouldn't just immediately erase him especially since one of Eggmans weaknesses would be a great counter to it as he is cocky and makes fights with him personal. He would most likely boast heavily or attempt to aggravate Bowser to the point where Bowser would want to personally beat him. I could still be wrong about this, but it just doesn't feel like an in character way that Bowser would act in response to fighting Eggman. It's definitely a win con, but I personally feel as if it wouldn't be very in character for Bowser to act that way and I think that Eggman would cause more than enough annoyance to warrant Bowser treating it as a personal vendetta to beat him.
@ my comment was in response to your confusion about why Bowser didn’t wipe away Mario and Luigi when he said he would. I do not wish to engage in the whole Bowser v Eggman nonsense. I like both characters and would’ve cheered regardless of who won in the og video. If you all want to debate who wins, go ahead, please leave me out of that
@I.T.P I'm sorry, if I annoyed you with my reply I was just thinking that it wouldn't be in character for them to act that specific way and thought characterization playing a role was interesting
@@ArkhamMaster. Nah, it takes a lot to annoy me, and giving your own view point on a character will definitely not do that. I just spent so long typing that hoping to leave out the whole debate and at least to clear up some of the confusion you seemed to have about Bowser's decision making in Dream Team. Believe me I've been in comment chains with far more infuriating people (And you've done nothing to make that list), it's the internet after all.
Yeah, I don't know much about Sonic series, but even I found it odd how they mentioned what Solaris did and didn't try to better quantify it thanks to that one feat alone. I mean, considering how hard it is to measure such, I can't blame them for assuming it's a tie due to the whole 'infinite power' assumption. But comparing the speed of traversing the galaxy(which I still think shouldn't be discounted), that should still not compare to an entity destroying numerous timelines simultaneously. I mean, sure, it's a lot faster than I assumed Bowser to be, but it does make sense to compare his speed to Mario. But even WITH that, that one line about Solaris made me think the speed feat is not properly measured on the Sonic side of things. I mean, strength and other stats is one thing, but speed? Yeah, that just felt off for the measurement for Eggman's side.
One of the other things that gets me is that they said in the time it took Eggman to take over the planet in half in that time, Bowser took over the universe (I forgot the exact line lol) but... Eggman's goal is Litterly just to make a theme park...that's it
16:14 This is probably a nitpick, but it has to be said - when we talk about deleting timelines, and how many universes there are, what kind of power that takes... I think we have to consider a thing or two. My best guess is as follows: Whether you believe there's a difference between timelines and alternate universes/realities is..subjective (Looking at you, CW), we do have to concede that they are not necessarily created equal. Consider the DragonBall Xenoverse, something covered in another Death Battle episode - some changes in reality are big enough to require one of a finite number of "slots" for such universes, and some don't. I think I can make a fair argument that not only is this the case in Sonic, but that as a result some worlds don't survive until a multiverse-ending event. That fair argument is based, at least in part, on Shadow the Hedgehog. You can say, as you have, there are 300+ realities, but first of all, for simplicity's sake, try to remember they all end up in one of 10 places. Dozens of them, for example, end with Shadow killing the creator of the Android race (Eggman) before conquering the universe so Androids rule. Now, some realities are likely self-cannibalizing. For example, if you're an android and rule with an iron fist by killing all who get in your way, all sentient life dies, then the android race breaks down and also dies. There's a...nonzero chance this ends with a galaxy void of sentient life, organic or mecha, that kinda just collapses on itself as a result. And again, when I say "this ends," I really mean "every variation of this could end..." So, what am I getting at? Well, when you try to figure out what multiversal-ending powers or people accomplished, quantifying it is a fool's errand because there's no way of knowing for sure how many timelines or universes are left to erase by the time that power is activated. So, the minute they started talking about Bowser surviving the universe's rebirth, or you talked about Solaris' reality-warping powers? I didn't just take those calculations with a grain of salt, I poured myself a spoonful and applied generously. At that point, I'm just along for the ride.
Some other points for Bowser having decently high chances of winning are: 1. We’ve never seen Bowser’s bones break or even crack, meaning they must be more durable than his body 2. Bowser has access to multiple invincibility power ups, some don’t even have a timer, which also work for the cherry clones 3. It took a bit of time but at the end you can see Kamek return perfectly fine, meaning he was only launched far away by Super Neo Metal, not killed or badly injured
@@tonysonic456it’s ok everyone does, even I did at first till I saw the scans of speeda but you’re points are strong. oh and string theory is canon to sonic because of the sonic boom universe is canon to the original universe. I do like the animation and music of this battle but the ending pissed me off so I plan to do my own animation any tips?
I dont think the other mechs were shown because it may be harder to make switching and controlling multiple mechs reasonable. In addition, Kamek wasnt likely utilized as much due to it being pointless to show everything Kamek can negate. If i remember correctly, death battle reaches a conclusion then has the battle animated to fit into it. Also, the koopalings werent included, who are strong, durable, and possess fairly powerful magic.
While i disagree with some things i also agree with many other things. Its glad to see both a healthy take and trying to have common sense with a few things, its something you dont see often. I would say that while i would lean more on Eggman winning there are a fee things that to me are also a bit iffy, per example i am not an expert in every detail from both franchises and there sre a few games that i didnt play but for what i read they didnt defeat Solaris by force but by removing the threath through tine time and i dont think the time eater is universal since i dont remember it being stated anything like that and everything we saw it doing was around city to country level. Also while i agree in your takes about Bowser not being as powerfull as they claim i feel like similar arguments could be said about Eggman. As for the armies going in Eggman's favour while i get their point about Bowser's i think they exagerated what they can do with that. I agree with the logic but i dont remember them getting to do anything similar to the levels they talk about and i dont see how they could be so effective same with their arsenal not being that great (for the most part) compared with Eggman's. And while i get their point about Eggman's army i dont see how it is a disadvantage, his army is self sustained for the most part and the automated ones would work on unison and the heavy hitters are loyal while also having Sage directing things. I the end i would say Eggman's takes the edge due to having more potency and said direction. I think i could keep going but i feel i said enough As for your video i feel this is definetly the way to go
That's said in the English version of 64 The original japanese game and manual says that Bowser is going into the paintings and establishing a monster kingdom in them Probably can still be used but i wouldn't call it 100% concrete
Yep, this is actually the correct thing because if the english version was the original context then dimentio would get destroyed by bowser with ease.@@RackerTheRascalMashup
This is probably one of the best debunk/debate videos I've seen on this concept. While I personally think Bowser is more likely to win, It's by a very small amount, and there are plenty of scenarios where Eggman wins. And I very much agree that the Mario vs. Sonic ideas should be done after this completely. And I fully respect your opinion that Eggman is more likely to win. Even if I don't fully agree.
@mynameisntimportant1374 I wasn't trying to spell "worst." This is a really good video. And if you disagree, that's your opinion. And if you have a problem with me having an opinion, or if you have a problem with Tony Sonic, then you can take your complaint and tell it to someone who actually cares.
@@jdepicadventures you responded so you care and I already expressed my hate for this video and there is no way you actually think this is a good video
@mynameisntimportant1374 Responding doesn't mean that I care. If I cared, I'd have consideration or concern for your remarks, and I don't. And I never said this was a perfect video. But it is still pretty good. And better than most debunk videos that i've seen on this topic, especially ones that say Bowser never had a chance against Eggman. At least he acknowledges that there are scenarios where Bowser could win. But you think what you want, I guess, again I really don't care. Have a good day.
@ if you didn’t care you would have ignored me It’s unironically the worst of the debunks out there even worse than the Tyler one and I don’t care if they said bowser had no chance I care for the scaling used You too I suppose
No, that's called using your brain and not beating a dead horse. But if you insist then go ahead, prove that bowser is smarter than egg man because I'm wait lmaoo
Despite personally thinking bowser wins I will say I do totally get why you might think eggman wins And I think you made some good points Great vid as always Tony
Personally I am very grateful for your analysis on why Eggman should’ve been the winner and I am a much bigger fan of the Sonic franchise but I’m also a fan of the Mario series so I wasn’t all that upset about the outcome that death battle gave us. Although I should mention I do think they REALLY lowballed Infinite.
I don't know about that. Tails is kind of dead weight compared to the teamwork that Mario & Luigi have showcased. Maybe sometime in the future, Tails will get another game of his own and get some cool stuff to use, but until then, the matchup feels more like Mario & Luigi vs Sonic rather than Mario & Luigi vs Sonic & Tails.
To me, this feels like Mob Vs Tatsumaki again. Sure running this fight 100 times, Eggman could score 40 or more victories. But I believe more often than not Bowser would win.
Honestly either could win in my opinion same with Mario vs Sonic because I have enough of Toxic Mario fans which as a big Mario fan we don't claim those Mario fans as real Mario fans downplaying Sonic to make Mario win and Sonic fans which also as a big Sonic fan do not claim as real Sonic Fans downplaying Mario to make Sonic Win. Even though I enjoy Mario games more I still enjoy Sonic a lot which as a fun fact about me I played Sonic Riders and Sonic heroes a ton as a kid because they are not only fun Sonic games but good Sonic games.
I honestly think it would either be a tie, or Mario would win via cartoon BS. Its just that I have scene WAY to many sonic fans meat riding sonic and eggman while completely ignoring the feats of the Mario cast.
@@truegamer7760 Saying sonic fans meat ride while you say that mario wins because of cartoon bs when he doesn't have anything even close to what toon characters can really do is wild
sorry but i cant agree with what you said on 28:07 since on 33:53 for a split second you can see egg drone from sonic movie universe so since they are there that means movie death egg robot can be there too
One thing I’m surprised they didn’t use with a shadow androids because correct me if I’m wrong, weren’t the shadow android comparable to the original shadow in a sense that they will be on equal terms to that shadow at that point seems like something that would really turn the tide
Great video/arguments. I think Bowser wins because I like him more. But in all seriousness, I think Bowser wins. Death battle had to include both Bowser's and Dr eggman's armies in order to give Eggman a Fighting Chance. Without his army, Eggman isn't that threatening. While Bowser is. Hell, sage and metal Sonic carry Eggman super hard. Eggman needs metaphorical crutches.
I dunno. Eggman has had several mechs over the years that make him pretty intimidating. Some of which have gotten him super close to winning in the games.
@@imthecoolest3884 You realize that you can't just take boastful statements at face value, right? Also, being in space doesn't make it BEYOND space. If it's in space and doesn't leave said space, then it isn't beyond space.
@tonysonic456 you said earlier that eggman has higher dimensional machines that I agree with but most of his battles take place in space that wouldn't just automatically nerf his machines just because it's not currently in a higher dimension
Breaking the speed formula is not new in mario. In Yoshis new island its implied Bowser clawed his way through time and space. He can build machines that are above time and space. And he scales to people like wario who defeated the universal back jewel the mario cosmology has alot of structures as we'll which werent mentioned in this video
@@ChardleyLouissimple, the animator had to make a hard choice between include the koopalings or make extra scenes focusing on both trios Eggman, metal and sage Bowser, junior and kamek
@MEH-y1k It didn't take them out though. They just weren't in the animation, they might have been in the original storyboards as the koopalings were there but really having them in would be nice, but isn't really necessary. Also the koopalings are just better than the heavies at practically everything.
@ChardleyLouis I would say they somewhat scale to JR, but don't have access to all of his weapons, I.E. his paint brush and kamek's wand. Although I feel like their magic would definitely help annoy or make metal Sonic's day worse.
I don't know why you consider Color Splash as a separate timeline, but I know two that you didn't include: Yoshi's Wooly World and Yoshi's Crafted World. Just as a minor addition.
@@joshuana5132 Color Splash isn’t a separate timeline. At one point in Color Splash, you travel to a parallel universe. That was what I was referring to. Also, Yoshi’s Wooly World and Yoshi’s Crafted World are a little tricky to pinpoint because it’s hard to tell if they’re just adventures the real Yoshi went on and the yarn and craft look is just an aesthetic, or they’re actually separate worlds made out of yarn and crafts.
I love this video. i can tell how much effort was put into it, and the Sonic vs. mario concept should end with bowser vs eggman for the game atleast I'd still love to see lore goofy ideas like dic sonic vs dic mario,dic bowser vs dic eggman,movie sonic vs movie mario,boom knuckles vs tv show donkey kong,or even archie sonic vs paper mario but I do agree sonic and mario characters should fight other fanchies idea pop up like sonic vs megaman,mario vs kirby,movie knuckles vs yang xiao long (a matchup I made one day),shard vs V,or metal sonic vs cell still thos love this video
@CallumSmith-zm6ls King Boo can’t “die”, but he can be taken out of the fight. Also, even if he reanimated as Dry Bowser, all it takes to beat that form is a hard enough hit since he was taken out in NSMB by dropping him off a bridge and specifically had to be thrown in a cauldron to revive him.
@tonysonic456 while I agree that boo can be defeated and I agree with some of your points and I do respect your opinion on who wins like if you think eggman wins more often I wouldn't necessarily disagree but I personally think there are lots of ways for bowser to win and to be honest there's ways both could win really but in my opinion I think bowser wins more and to be honest I like both of them as characters but I've mostly been more of an bowser fan since I grew up in the early 2000s playing mario galaxy but again I respect your opinion
I want to see someone who isn’t bias to debunk the Crash vs. Spyro episode for a while now. They used all versions of Spyro even though Legend of and Skylanders are two completely different versions of him.
here's my reasoning: Physical stats: in the various Mario sports games, bowser has been constantly shown as the power character, with the highest strength. and in each instance, the power of bowser has been higher than Yoshi. even then, it's still a video game, and the protagonist has to win, so there's that. even if we assume that bowser is not stronger than yoshi due to his defeats, we can at least scale him to yoshi. also, side note: eggman has shown these feats in a mech or with lazers/inventions. his actual physical feets outside of the death egg is about human levels I think Powers: I agree, but yet again, the rules of death battle indicates that characters do not know each other unless specified, or something. also, I think they mean that the crazy stuff can't be all used at once. there is also a pop us saying that the clown car can easily cross the universe or something. needs more recharch Army: I know I am going out of context of video, but I feel confident about how to analise it first, and the trump cards is a bit too long for today. Fistly, bowser could make clones of himself too, or just clone metal sonic, making the infinite/metal sonic combo cancelled. also, Mario enemies are strong too. they have been shown to have special shots in golf, and according to Mario maker, a single goomba can lift bowser. also, the relationship between infinite and eggman is a bit fishy, as eggman betrays infinite, ore something that could make infinite stay out of the fight the ending is still good, and I like how your friend adds a counterpoint for the video.
This was a good debunk honestly. Most of the debunks I've watched do come from some kind of unfair bias, or have contradictory explanations. And while I do see some bias in this, I'm not gonna call that since that would make me hypicritcal since I think Bowser's win is justified. I can definitely see where you are coming from and how you think Eggman wins. Overall, good video! I also liked how you got in someone in to make your debate more interesting and I can see the side of that argument as well. I enjoyed it this video and I hope you have good new years :D!
2:53 eggman should have NOT won and you’re only coping 5:24 and bowser also defeated yoshi in multiple occasions ( mario world,Mario galaxy 2 etc ) 7:15 if you’re using narrative to scale then then you’re going by the logic that eggman always uses his strongest stuff at the last moment 7:26 eggman machine never kept up with sonic at all and faster than light ? Baby bowser scales to baby Mario who dodged alien ships who could interstellar distances in a matter of minutes 8:09 the argument is that Mario can react to being launched to other galaxies in a matter of seconds when he lands to another planet and he scales to power star amped beings and the power star can easily cross intergalactic distances in seconds 8:55 hastly generalization 9:16 said machinery always being speedblitzed by sonic casually 10:40 also he stated it twice and kept the whole game charging his power doubting bowser statements but taking eggman literally only shows your bias 11:21 thanks for proving you didn’t play dream team it was destroyed by starlow and peach and that would only upscales them 12:04 stated multiple times in game to be there multiple dream worlds again just say you didn’t play dream team and save yourself the embarrassment 12:19 you do know that it’s a multiverse of dreams and not every multiverse works under many worlds interpretation also the dream depot 13:11 I still can’t believe you’re talking when it shows you have no idea of what you’re talking about the dream stone is the embodiment of every good dream and in Mario there are infinite dreamers making the dream stone contain infinite dreams 13:45 gameplay mechanics, dreams where stated multiple times to be infinite in Mario ( Mario party 5, mario bros 2 etc ) 13:57 how does this debunk infinite size 💀 ? This is only suggesting bowser has limited imagination and it’s not even true cause in scene after bowser eats more meat to become bigger 14:47 nice theory based on nothing anyway 15:29 knowledge claim debunked later in the game 15:48 so does Mario 16:09 sonic stating himself he couldn’t beat Solaris even silver and shadow help and had to blew off his flame 16:31 there are only 8 universes in the Arabian nights 17:06 and don’t forget sonic DOES NOT SCALE TO SOLARIS 17:15 imagine using other media when that other media has base shadow one shotting super Neo metal sonic and sonic moping the floor with Neo metal in base 17:36 they didn’t interrupt anything and they had to specifically catch bowser off guard also even if they did interrupt the wish it was needed both starlow star power and peach wish power and eggman has none of that at his disposal 17:51 Neo super metal not being able to reach to base shadow 18:03 wow if only bowser didn’t do a similar feat in base before the Nintendo 64 was even a thing …. Culex boss fight from super Mario rpg 18:31 so does literally every Mario and fictional character 18:55 someone clearly doesn’t know how cosmology works 19:23 it’s a parallel world 19:44 someone didn’t play odyssey 💀🙏 the power moons where confirmed to be another shape of the power stars 20:05 the lumas can become power stars 20:15 it’s been stated countless times to be infinite 21:12 oh yeah artifact that defeated beings who could create dreams vs extremely limited fodder who could control one dream 21:25 stop lying just cause you don’t know anything about either series doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be mentioned 21:55 so you don’t know anything about either Mario or sonic ? Cause Mario galaxy and tailstube both confirmed infinite multiverses for the franchises 22:31 someone doesn’t know what higher infinities are 23:31 good lord the ignorance is killing me, the chaos heart targeted all the cosmology including the dream depot and all the higher dimensions 23:41 bowser was literally one of the 4 heroes of the light prognosticus who were destined to find the pure hearts and the pure hearts created universes and are the embodiment of love they would annihilate the time eater on sight 24:31 translation : you have no idea where either scale and you noticed just how much you’ve been spitting nonsense 24:55 a star that caps at island level ? Don’t make laugh also infinite “stars” when any ice flower user : 💀 25:55 anyone who played frontiers knows sage said multiple times the titans could beat sonic and sonic always proved her wrong 26:45 eggman army has neither speed,power or intelligence and damn no loyalty guess no army 33:39 that you should never make a debunk video ever again and there is no existent reality where eggman wins and you’re only saying your whole yappery cause you don’t know any other Mario vs sonic matchup and would be biased if the sonic characters would lose i can’t believe I’m saying this but this might be the worst “debunk” on this deathbattle toghether Tyler
And thank you for not doing your damn research, it’s obvious you didn’t actually listened to what he said and too much of a Mario fan to at least hear him out. He made great points and even gave death battle credit for making valid points. He showed proof and evidence of his opinion and even made counterclaims about it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not some random Sonic fan, but it’s painfully obvious death battle was somewhat glazing bowser’s team because for one, super neo Metal Sonic is powered by the master emerald and not the chaos emeralds, and since the master emerald’s power is greatly above the chaos emeralds, it means that it can match the grant star. Another thing they got wrong is that the phantom ruby doesn’t make just illusions (play Sonic forces to do your own research) it’s proven that infinite can just make countless and COUNTLESS clones of neo metal Sonic’s that can speed blitz the whole army. Or as SonicTony said, drop a whole sun and nuke the battlefield. And actually Eggman did make robots that can occupy super Sonic as just listed them in the v I d e o. It’s not about him be salty, if about him stating his own opinion about the outcome, even I’m pointing out my own facts that connect to his. And if you hate the video so much then just don’t watch the damn video.
Did you even read my comment or just hating without doing your own research. I did watch the death battle there were points death battle forgotten about, how about you do your own research and figure it out yourself, not here to argue or do a back-and-forth, but it’s obvious that you should do your own scaling instead of listening to a RUclips video.
While I respect your opinion, I still personally side with Bowser on this one. Though keep in mind, I am not a vs debater at all and only notice some off points at random times. Not to mention, while both characters are some of my favorite villains in fiction, I personally have more of a connection to Bowser, and seeing him win despite all the crazy stuff brought up for Eggman during the waiting period was one of the happiest moments for me as a death battle fan. No disrespect to your opinion. You are definitely more well versed in the debating side than I am, but I am still Team Koopa to this day. Also, while I do think Mario vs Sonic 3 could be cool, I agree that it shouldn’t happen immediately after this
I don't think a sonic vs mario will ever be a good thing. Because mario fans will lose it and try to use the most busted version of mario to justify mario being able to somehow stomp sonic. And it'd be just chaos because some hussies can't accept that a blue blur can just beat a plumber.
@@st2k27 what? Sonic basically has immeasurable speed at a consistent scaling, while mario at best is mostly MFTL, his immeasurable speed feats only happened and were not stated to actually be caused by his actual speed, for example. The stars that launch mario to other galaxies, are only done by the stars not mario.
About Mario speed feats... Mario/Luigi (at least on his own) should definitely scale to both Power Stars and Grand Stars. Power Stars are the fuel source for Starship Mario, which Bowser was able to hit mid-flight. Starship Mario is able to cross through universes and space and time (as stated by Lubba). Mario/Luigi was able to beat Bowser multiple times while powered by a Grand Star, so Mario/Luigi should scale to not only its Power, but its speed as well (the Power Star's telekinesis being able to help Mario travel across space and scaling above people/things like Rosalina, Lumas, and Mini Stars should help round this out). There are a lot more faster than light feats across the Marioverse too. Dreamy Luigi jumping to constellations, Mario and Dreamy Luigi fighting the Zeekeeper in a dimensional rift, Dribble and Spitz driving across the cosmos, the Millennium Star traveling from the center of the universe to Earth in seconds, Mario/Luigi outracing Prankster Comets, outpacing Black Holes, etc. (some feats listed can debatably reach incalculable speeds). Neither Bowser or Eggman are gonna get blitzed imo.
I would like to point out that the Zeekeeper fight and Luigi jumping to constellations happened in the Dream World, a dimension where characters can do things they normally can’t in the real world. So I would take feats within the Dream World with a grain of salt. Starship Mario meanwhile, if I remember correctly, was attacked offscreen by Bowser; so whether or not it was hit mid flight is a little iffy. Even if it was, that doesn’t mean that Mario can scale to its travel speed nor does it close the speed gap between Bowser and Metal Sonic.
@@tonysonic456 "Starship Mario meanwhile, if I remember correctly, was attacked offscreen by Bowser; so whether or not it was hit mid flight is a little iffy. Even if it was, that doesn’t mean that Mario can scale to its travel speed nor does it close the speed gap between Bowser and Metal Sonic." Thats mean Bowser can tagged in mid fly starship with his meteors thats showed in a cinematic something to atleast in reaction can be scaled up to MFTL specially since that ship can travel trough galaxies in a mere seconds "I would like to point out that the Zeekeeper fight and Luigi jumping to constellations happened in the Dream World, a dimension where characters can do things they normally can’t in the real world. So I would take feats within the Dream World with a grain of salt." Mario and luigi in physical form can scaled to zeekeper in base and zeekeper kept up with reamy luigi so the speed comparison is good Also zeekeper can travel trought dimensions by flying over
@ The Zeekeeper tore those dimensional rifts himself so you can’t really apply that logic to him. You can kind of do that for Luigi, but we do legitimately see Dreamy Luigi jump through space to use his special moves all the time in the dreams (plus a Mario character jumping absurdly high is something that happens outside of dream worlds so I don’t see why those two feats would be weird to consider) Also Lubba claims that they /ran into/ Bowser, implying they were mid flight when getting attacked.
36:25 what if someone else made it, not death battle I mean everyone has a way to make this but there always over shadowed by death battle to me death battle needs to end too it has ran it’s course and needs to fall
Great video mate. This video completely disproves DeathBattle. There are so many things they left out for both sides and both sides have evidence of Hyperversal levels, Eggman more so. I'll be happy to explain why
@mynameisntimportant1374 I admit there is some leeway with it, but if uses facts about the verses to scale the cosmology and where characters stack to it
King boo and kemeck are definitely big threats. King boo can just poses super neo metal, kameck can also just make giant bowsers out of any enemy. Also were did the brage that was going after metal sonic when he had the ruby shouldn't they still be opening fire upon him? Also amy vs peach would be nice. Edit: also luigi vs tails remach would definitely be more interesting.
I don't think King Boo would ever be able to catch Metal Sonic. Even trying to sneak up on him probably wouldn't work given his superior speed. Also, I really don't like the idea of Amy vs Peach or Luigi vs Tails 2. The former is really boring and only has the "pink girl character" connection, and the latter only exists because Luigi fans are salty and want to see Luigi brutally murder an eight-year-old fox.
@@tonysonic456an eight year old fox who is incredibly intelligent, plus they messed up saying that Luigi's max strength is barely being able to lift a giant turnip.
23:24 I would like to add in a few more mario worlds here There's also the world of weapons from mario rpg (the home of smithy) and Vanda Culex home world
36:31 in a mario vs sonic 3 they could always go FULL COMPOSITE and i mean EVERYTHING. The sonic manga, mario-kun, all the cartoons both have, the nintendo power comics, archie, sonic the comic, that short lived french sonic comic, the Guinness book of world records book that stated sonic was the worlds fastest video game character, cdi games, minecraft, movies (i want to see something from the mario live action), ect. Think about how crazy this could get.
Just wanted to get this out of the way the storybook dimensions in sonic don't count as alternate timelines at all because these are just self-contained dimensions that exists within the storybooks themselves meaning that time dilation inside the storybook dimension is not going to be the same in the real world since time inside the storybook dimensions are isolated from the real world itself and they have their own rules about how they operate & Sonic has only been in two of them so far & yes the storybook games are Canon because the story books themselves exist within the Sonic universe itself because Sonic does have a library somewhere really does kept his books & you can't forget that classic Sonic is just past sonic and of course you've probably seen that tailstube video talking about that the timestream is not just one dimensions that they're in but he does also mention other infinite Multiverse with other versions of Sonic in it and he is referring to separate self-contained universe that has nothing to do with the original one while the timestream in the original universe is part of the same universe
One, I never said that the Storybook games were alternate timelines. I classified Black Knight as a separate universe, and the Arabian Nights as a multiverse. The timelines I mentioned were the main, Bad Future, and Shadow hundreds of alternate timelines. Two, I actually went and found the clip of Tails saying that the multiverse is infinite, and what he's saying is a hypothetical. He phrases it as the multiverse having endless possibilities and is speaking what theoretically could be possible based on their experiences. Speculation and theorizing is not definitive proof that Sonic's multiverse is infinite.
@@tonysonic456yeah man because we have to wait until more Sonic games come out that will mention or talk about the Multiverse a lot more oh yeah I almost forgot one dimension to add it's the sol dimension because that's where blaze the cat live who is this universe is equivalent to Sonic and this is just one dimension that they explored outside of their own universe and we do agree that the Sonic and Mario rivalry really should stop and the thing about death battle is they don't always mention everything in every games that they talk about or even understand anything about context of how a character's feats or statements work but yeah eggman should be the one that won like he does have Mechs that can contend with Sonic on a daily basis oh yeah did you know that different types of infinity exists because you got countable Infinity and uncountable infinity it's possible that the chaos emeralds have near infinite power because they can still be drained on some occasions but still way more powerful than the dreamstone and you can already alter reality with these emeralds and even blaze 06 that you can transform your thoughts into power and one thing I mention Bowser conquering the universe does not make him universal because for one thing Bowser has to go to every part of the Universe in order to even conquer them and also the Mario games are not even focused on universal or multiversal stuff all the time because for majority of the time they are just focused on Earth way more then doing universal or multiversal stuff and I can't even say for sure how powerful they are also another thing about the lumas because don't forget whenever they die they can become power Stars launch stars or pull stars even the pink lumas can turn into other planets stars or galaxies whenever you feed them enough star bits
@@tonysonic456 Since how arabian nights is a mutiverse is only a book with limited pages like caliburn thats a world a 1 universe and shadow alternatives paths was never sclassified as timelines even ian flynn said thats non canon paths,unlike bad future a true alternativer timeline
I just think bowser wins because of all the reality warping items he has also I believe when they said he was stronger than yoshi I think they only mean physically stronger which makes more sense
I do ask like some concepts with one being kinda real but outdated, and one literally just fanfic. 1. Is Super Neo Metal Sonic an actual super form, or an emulated one like how Super Mecha Sonic was? I was never really able to understand how much it could go agaisnt an actual Super Form so I hope this question can be answered. 2. (The fanfic one) If Bowser Jr were to also get into that wonder state but as Shadow Mario, would've he stood a better chance agaisnt Super Neo Metal Sonic? (Probably not but it would've given an excuse to see a Mario Faker vs a Sonic Faker)
1: In the IDW comics, Super Neo Metal emerges after Neo Metal Sonic absorbs a bunch of energy from the Master Emerald; so unlike Super Eggman, it's not an emulation. It's an actual Super form. 2: Honestly, I doubt it. Shadow Mario was more or less a disguise for Bowser Jr. that didn't seem to enhance any of Junior's physical stats; so, I don't think adding Wonder power to the mix would give him much of a boost.
Thanks for the amazing year! Here's hoping 2025 is another grand one!
Hell yeah!!
While I do agree with most of the logic found in the video, the theory that Sonic's time travel works on multiverse theory due to the continuity error in Forces is actually just one of the game's many errors that SEGA and the new lore team has been trying to quash, with multiple interviews, the IDW comics (which are canon) and two entire episodes of Tailstube dedicated to showing that this isn't the case and killing the theory. Even the Generations remake changes the ending to show that time travel will cause people to forget ala Dr. Who.
TLDR: Forces is just full of errors and Sonic has only one timeline that can change. (on a side note the Two Worlds thing was also clarified to be two cultures, animal people live on the islands, while humans live on the continents mostly, the planet itself is called Earth)
In my own opinion I think bowser would win a little be more since unlike eggmans army bowsers heavy hiters like king boo can't die and not to mention boo can turn Invisible and could just trap most of eggmans army in a different reality or even worse just take over eggman and not to mention alot of eggmans army are either weak to magic or they don't have any counters to magic I mean kamek could turn eggman or metal into sand if he wanted to and if that didn't work bowser could just wish the army out of existence besides time eater or possibly infinite
Alright I do respect your opinion but do feel like you did a bad job debunking death battles Eggman vs bowser, I will explain why.
“Bowser is not stronger then yoshi bc yoshi has beat him multiple times”
True but this can easily be debunked, (1) this is a weaker bowser all the insane feats did not occur after theses games came out like taking over the universe or better yet one shotting Mario and (2) this can be plot armor as well.
“Bowser can’t keep up with Eggman or his army bc he can’t past the speed of light”
He can go way beyond the speed of light,
He has beat culex who exists in the past present and future witch is immeasurable speed
He has beat Mario in Mario odyssey he gets one shot by him, and Mario can casually walk in tic toc clock in Mario 64 witch is basically time and space where time stops goes forward or goes back and Mario can walk casually in it.
And bowser can casually go through space in time which he does trying to kill baby Mario.
Also they did show speed feats it was in the black box which I won’t blame you for missing it
“Dreamy bowser is not multiverse bc the dream world is not a universe”
Mario Party 5
Dream Depot was confirmed directly by Misstar and by the manual (page 28) to turn its dreams into universes.
And there’s infinite universes in the dream depot.
“Grand stars and power stars are not plentiful bc in Mario galaxy there are only 120 or 150 power stars and grand stars”
This is a terrible argument not like every other game has power stars like Mario 64 and even if you want to use this argument power stars have stoped bowsers galaxy reactor, which was going to the destroy the universe that includes all of the galaxies and one of them is called matter splatter galaxy and that galaxy is a super space and destroying a super space will will make you complex Multiverse that would make the power stars and grand stars 5D level.
“Eggmans army is better”
The only thing you say is that infinite can make clones which are not that strong bc they can get one shotted and not like bowser can clone his army as well with the dream stone which is far better then infinites clones.
And what do you mean the power ups won’t matter? When the ice flower can literally freeze the sun it’s sated in Mario and Luigi brothership. that would make that sun infinite made useless.
“Bowser is not smart or imaginative to use the wonder flower correctly”
Did you even play a Mario game?
He is very imaginative he has use different techniques to stop Mario in almost every game and he is pretty smart he is not dumb he can build a time machine.
Overall I have to say which I’m saying in the nicest why possible but this video was awfully bad, but I do respect you for being very civil and not being toxic to death battle and wanting to hear other peoples thoughts about this debunk video is a nice touch.
@@bobhandsome4606 No offense, but these are pretty weak rebuttals. As much as I respect your opinion, I don't believe any of these.
1. All of the examples of Yoshi beating Bowser have featured a Bowser that is stronger than the previous one. Hell, by Yoshi's New Island, he was fighting against a modern-day Bowser in his giant form no less, and all it took was throwing giant eggs at him. This isn't plot armor either as it's happened in half of the Yoshi games.
2. First of all, Culex is not omnipresent throughout time and space. He never says anything like that. He just shows up, says he's gonna destroy the multiverse, fights Mario and co., and then f***s off forever. Second of all, Tick-Tock Clock is the literal inside of a clock, not this weird time dimension. The mechanisms moving faster or slower depending on the time you entered is little more than a gameplay mechanic. Third, being able to time travel with magic does not make you faster than light. He's not running fast enough to go back in time or anything. He's just using magic to make a portal to the past.
3. Except the Dream depot in Mario Party 5 is not at all related to the Dream World or Dream Stone from Mario & Luigi Dream Team. You are using a separate, barely related thing to try to prove a different, barely related thing.
4. First, I didn't include the Mario 64 Power Stars because much like Shine Sprites and Power Moons, they are not the same as Galaxy Power Stars due to their significantly weaker power and different purposes. Second, you saying that one Galaxy that has anti-matter eating through space makes the Galaxy 5D (whatever the hell that means) is such a stretch when the only thing you have to go off of is anti-matter doing what is does and erasing matter. You're just saying words without actually explaining anything. Third, the Lumas were the ones to stop the Galaxy Reactor, not the Power Stars. There is a difference.
5. It wasn't just the clones I mentioned for Infinite. Not only are those clones better than the Dream Stone clones as they're just more of the same cannon fodder we've seen since the first Mario game, but Infinite can wipe out most of the army by dropping a star onto the battlefield. AND he's too fast for most of them to even perceive and too powerful for most of them to take on directly. Also, you're really gonna take ONE statement from Brothership as undeniable fact even though the Ice Flower is shown in every other game to not be as powerful as what you suggest? And even if it was, they'd never hit Eggman's best machines.
6. My comment about Bowser not being very imaginative came from his use of the Wonder Flower in Super Mario Bros Wonder. He had the power to shape the world to his liking, yet all he did was fuse with a castle and make a flashy rock concert. He could've transformed Mario into a goomba and smashed him then and there, but he didn't. Even in other games where he gets new techniques to use, more often than not, they're from stolen artifacts he's collected, and when they're not, they still just involve his go-to strategy of "punch it really hard". Compare this to Eggman who's a genius inventor and brilliant strategist, Bowser's a simpleton.
I appreciate the respectful comments, but I don't see how your arguments disprove my own.
Its good to see a unique take on it while being civil and not just being like other debunk channels where they insult death battle because they researched a character differently
“Death Battle sucks, you should listen to me since I only researched my favorite and cherry picked information about them”
*5:38* to add more to this, im pretty sure bowser survived two different massive black holes rather than only one, one in what i assume to be mario party 9, and another in mario galaxy 2
Good call getting someone with an opposite opinion. It wouldn't be right to make the debate one sided.
As an avid Bowser supporter, I’ll just throw around a couple more arguments that I don’t see many people bring up:
A. Survivability. At most you can argue Eggman having access to rings, which can shield SOME damage, but ultimately are easily overcome through most of Bowser’s win-cons. Meanwhile, most of Eggman’s options can’t really get past Bowser’s arsenal of 1-UPs and Retry Clocks that are able to restore or rewind upon Bowser’s death to keep him going.
B. Bowser’s item manipulation is more than just a couple magical options. Boos naturally steal, and they steal a lot. They can easily slip through Eggman’s forces and take away all his items, especially with intangibility and invisibility. Also, pretty much any enemy can pull out a Plunder Chest to try their luck at stealing a macguffin any time.
C. Boos in general are actually a huge pain to Eggman. They can produce Spirit Balls, which can possess things on contact (even tech!) or make them intangible to incapacitate them.
D. Power Stars have far more hax than most people give them credit for. Notably, Mini Stars (Which are weaker than Power Stars) can erase groups of clones all at once. Therefore, even just one Power Star, which is 5 Mini Stars IIRC, should be able to mass erase portions of Eggman’s army, and the Grand Stars should reasonably do it on an even greater scale.
E. Those clones I mentioned are from Bowser’s Bubble Towers, multiple structures which automatically produce clones far stronger than either’s foot soldiers. In contrast, the copies from the Phantom Ruby are manual and only base Sonic level threats, making them fair inferior. Not to mention there are only three Phantom Rubies while even more Bubble Towers can be raised easily.
F. Iggy. Goddamn. Koopa. Even if you argue Eggman’s heavy hitters can win via stats, this little guy can swap their stats around with some random Goomba and suddenly that’s soloing most of the Eggman Empire while strong options like Super Neo Metal are reduced to a mere foot soldier.
G. Bowser Jr is also notable too. He can create status-blocking shields, just in case Eggman ever thought he could win via Hax, and can make portals with his paint, letting him bring the army basically wherever, including just in Eggman’s in-use mech.
H. In general, his father is more versatile than given credit for. Bowser’s Bowser Space is far more potent than any other of the Koopa Troop’s stealing magic, capable of cleaning out entire arsenals in an instant, which would basically immediately remove the majority of Eggman’s options. Also, he has crazy arena control with inhales and gravity magic, and can use his own power-null by literally just eating or ground-pounding opponents’ choices in a fight.
I. This’ll probably be my last point, but there’s two Kameks btw, like, Kammy Koopa exists and has even more broken magic than Kamek. Sorry Eggman, your robots are cool, but they’re slippers now.
I want to bring up a couple of counter for your argument, the ones that i don't brought up are the ones that i agree with.
1. Eggman doesn't exactly have that much items to steal, the ones that he probably have is the chaos emeralds (which is most likely going to be absorb by metal or being guard tightly) the master emerald (which im not sure if he should have that or not) the phantom ruby (which he shouldn't even have considering all of ot was destroyed by the end of force).
2. Wouldn't the mini star also damage his own army.
3. In secret rings, base sonic defeat erazor djinn who have absorb 100 universe and that is a weaker version of sonic as sonic become stronger after each game.
4. Im not sure if iggy could even perceive super neo metal sonic and super neo metal sonic could also copied his and the other magician ability and yes he could do it. In sonic rivals he was shown to have the ability to copy silver telekinesis.
5. If bowser use in hales or a ground pound he would also hurt his own army.
6. Wouldn't that just applied to the robot that couldn't fly even then the robot that are effected becomes kamikazed attacker.
@@andikaaherdiyanto917don’t forget some of eggmans robot posses magic like the egg bishop
@@andikaaherdiyanto917I feel like that statement of sonic becoming stronger each game is untrue just look at forces how he got jumped by all his last foes sonic could’ve easily speed blitz them also don’t forget how super sonic wasn’t enough for the titans and had trouble with them and one of the titans shot a laser to him and got taken out of his super form and made the chaos emeralds separate
What’s the source for the star’s destroying clones?
@@st2k27 2 of those clones are shadow and metal sonic, 2 characters who are also growing stronger alongside him and factoring infinite (who was stated to be sonic strongest at that point in time) in the equation of course he is going to lose.
As for the titans and the end, it's not that super sonic is weak, it's just that the titans and the end is just that strong.
End of 2022: Sonic related video
End of 2023: Mario related video
End of 2024: Mario and Sonic related video
It all came full circle!
@@tonysonic456 You mean Triangle XD!!!
@@tonysonic456 do you think your friend would like John Cena vs Charlie Morningstar my most wanted matchup
I’m glad that you actually formed coherent argument of why Eggman would win instead of saying Bowser for so much lower than eggmams
Quick thing about The Dreamstone, Dreams in Mario are generally seen as Universal in Nature, partly due to the Dream Depot on Mario Party, an infinite storage for the dreams of every single person to ever fall asleep so that the Star Sprites can sort through them and decide whether to grant thei wishes or not with the Star Rod. Mario 2 also supports this idea along with Dream Team, so Dream Scaling can be really funky
27:55 I'm guessing the size of the death egg robot MK 2 (the black death egg robots in sonic forces) was used and the design changed for eggman to manually control.
It’s always important to look at the text boxes that occasionally appear as well as the rules of death battle. The text boxes provide extra context to the analysis as well as specifics in why one wins over the other (eg. bowser’s army numbering over 98 million). The rules (which you can find in tv tropes) are there to ensure as fair a fight for both sides as possible (eg. non canon arsenal can be used as long as it is official and isn’t too far removed from original canon).
More people need to read this 👏
@@mauroherrera9543 like the top comment
Just because they are in the box doesn't means it's correct, just a heads up.
@ prove it
@@st2k27 The entire video already proves the black boxes info to be wrong. You have to be pretty desperate to say "prove it" when DB uses wrong info.
To be honest, it's hard to be mad for bowser winning because their are so many arguments for either side, so honestly I just watched the fight for enjoyment only
This is one of first times where seeing a “debunk” video didn’t make me grown or believe the person was wrong. This video feels more like a “Here’s my argument” than a “This is why you’re wrong” which makes this better to sit through. I still like Bowser to win but this video made me not feel angry when someone says Eggman should have won anymore. Overall good job!
I think we should not do anymore Mario vs Sonic matchups
If they do a 3rd installment of Mario vs Sonic, both fandoms will go ham on each other
@@CorruptPico you're definitely right😅 honestly I'm fine with eggman losing I agree he should have won but I'm fine with it the battle was fun to watch
I think that both fandoms would just erase death battle when it is going to be a draw
22:15
Though it is true that they've been drained of their power, these scenarios don't actually debunk the emeralds having unlimited power. Weird as that may sound, these are still fictional characters we're talking about. If a blue hedgehog can move at and beyond the speed of light, sources of infinite power can be suppressed, drained, and even surpassed.
Firstly, the instances themselves are rare, only 2 of note, and one of them required an unspecified amount of prep time using tools that were specifically made to handle their power. Furthermore, the feats that support the characters' claims that they have infinite power outnumber the instances of them being drained of power. Ranging from multiversal mechs to time consuming eldritch deities of limitless power.
It's also important to consider this, if such claims are blatantly untrue, then why have them repeated in later games? Comics too. FOR DECADES. They also can't be hyperbolic statements as the characters have repeatedly used the gems, two of whom are literal geniuses, so it's not like they don't know what they're talking about.
Playing around with what it means to have infinite power just makes things really confusing. It basically becomes that absurd "My Much Bigger Infinity vs Your Much Smaller Infinity" situation in Xeno Trunks vs Archie Silver. Infinity by definition has no limit, making it literally impossible in any sense to surpass it, yet we're supposed to believe that in several different franchises that you can surpass infinity? It's dumb.
Now as for the Chaos Emeralds, many have claimed them to have unlimited power, but as I said in the video, there are just as many instances where their power has been bypassed and even drained.
Sonic Adventure 1: Perfect Chaos briefly drains them of their negative energy.
Sonic Rush: The Sol Emeralds are also briefly drained of their energy, and the Egg Salamander has two attacks that can bypass the invincibility of Super Sonic and Burning Blaze.
Sonic 06: Solaris can damage all three Super hogs, invincibility be damned.
Sonic Unleashed: A major plot point of that game is restoring power to the Chaos Emeralds after Eggman completely drained them, and Perfect Dark Gaia can bypass Super Sonic's invincibility too.
Sonic Frontiers: Sage directly says that Super Sonic can't fight The End alone and needs either the assistance of Supreme or the cyber energy needed to become Super Sonic 2. What, are you gonna say The End is somehow MORE infinite than the Chaos Emeralds?
You can have multiple people say the same thing over and over, but if there are multiple instances where the statements are disproven, then I won't take them as fact.
@@tonysonic456
It can be confusing and even absurd; I'll give you that, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. Again, this is fiction, draining or surpassing infinite power is not unheard of.
Again, these aren't just baseless statements, the characters literally have firsthand experiences using them and have consistently stuck to this claim of infinite power. By your logic, there can't be an infinite number of positive integers because they start at 1.
As for these bosses damaging the super forms, they either have some sort of higher dimensional power or a power akin to the emeralds themselves.
Case in point, Egg Salamander was using the power of the Sol Emeralds and Dark Gaia has a connection to the Chaos Emeralds in some way too and also has an infinite power statement.
Solaris is a super dimensional being. By definition, his power surpasses any level of lower dimensional power. Even if it's infinite. To put this into perspective, Solaris destroying a timeline is a 4D feat, thus he would surpass infinite 3D power. The super hogs fighting such a being would mean their power would be of the same level. Same would apply to Egg Salamander who was a threat to 2 separate spacetimes, Time Eater who performs a similar feat to Solaris, and The End who surpasses them through scaling.
Tony: was about to gain his own fleetway super
other dude: "c o o k i e ."
Tony: "comprehensible, have a nice day."
Pfft- My name's Piffle if you were curious-
@@PiffleNEO i figured it out, because i was writing that AS the scene had just happened, because i'm one of those people who comments immediately on something i see without finishing the video first. i checked the description, and you weren't there either.
Funny enough, I have actually counted the number of NPCs I found in Dream Team. At max, it was about 25-35 thousand.
So, there you go I guess.
Damn, you actually had the time for that? Impressive, but still not enough to combat the Chaos Emeralds and the Time Eater.
Yeah ik.
There are some stuff I disagree with (like Arabian Nights is prolly closer to 2 universes than 1000 seeing as Sonic can view the different worlds from within other worlds, and Lightman’s prep time can be cancelled out with the time stones, and there is actually a large amount of evidence for infinite Sonic cosmology, more than Mario for sure), but I think I’m ready, as you are, to move on. I disagree with the episode, but it was very good and that’s all I can ask for.
@@jjslider3026that’s not how prep works and there is more evidence for Mario infinite cosmology than sonic
@@tonysonic456the dream stone easily outclasses both
@@mynameisntimportant1374 Only evidence for Mario is dream depot, which Maginaryworld outclassed via statements of absorbing dreams from across the whole multiverse and being infinite size via SoftBank magazine, plus Sonic having infinite timelines, infinite cyberspace and Otherworld from Sonic channel, endless white space between dimensions, dimensions outside of space time like null space and the end of time, and higher dimensional cosmology due to the existence of hyperspace and four d space created by warping spatial laws.
At best they’re even but usually Sonic has an edge
I think the biggest problem for Eggman's tech is that the best of the best require eother the Chaos Emeralds or Master Emerald to power them, limiting to about 2 or 3 being usable at a time, while Bowser can swap more or less at will.
That’s not true bud😂
@crazed.editsx1448 alright, prove it
@@EeveeShadowBacon Time eater, Egg wizard, Metal overlord, Lightman, phantom king (and Supreme if you give it to him). These are all multiversal beings that don't need the chaos or master emerald.
And Eggman doesn't even need the emeralds to physically be present inside his mechs in order to power them. All he needs is their energy, he does this with the egg salamander which takes the sol emeralds energy and then Blaze and Sonic use it right after. He has a chaos energy extractor and cannon that he uses to power up dark Gaia and transform Neo metal into his super form in Sonic speed simulator. Nothing stopping Eggman from jumping Bowser with multiple multiversal mechs, along with Sage being able to pilot them, time eater being shown to act on its own, and possibly Eggman nega or classic Eggman joining since they both work with him willingly
@@notarobber5387 exactly what I was gonna say
You are actually one of the few people who disagreed with the death battle while still shows no disrespect towards the show or people who work on them, while still showing them the respect they deserve for such an great episode. You have earned an extra subscriber today for that
Like I saw someone say, this is very much a matchup that can easily fluctuate depending on what is revealed in the future.
Please tell me I’m not the only one who finds it hilarious that they say ‘context is key’ yet they fail to recognise multiple moments of context in the conclusion
I somehow said the same thing about Deku vs Asta way back when on my main channel when I was talking about how half-assed their research was on both of the characters (mainly Asta even though they decided to give him the win).
Just like myself i dont care about the winner this death battle the animation is peak and thats all i adore about it
Yall don’t mention it but I wanna drop something. Bowser defending his troops in his fury form is unlikely since he’s literally in an uncontrollable FURY, however given the fact how neo metal has betrayed eggman and yet we see that form staying loyal I’m willing to overlook that as a minor misconception. We could argue about them but the only compromise I see is now metal is stuck in base. Still op but still
You have a point with Fury Bowser, but in the IDW comics, Metal himself states that Eggman removed his rebellious nature from his programming. So he could take the Neo and Super Neo forms yet still be loyal to Eggman.
@ so who said that the books were canon. Yeah I know Ian Flynn is writing for sonic team now and has snuck in some references but that doesn’t really make it canon does it?Like I’m fine with speculation and trying to make it fit but all I wanna know is who said they were canon. I recall an interview where Ian specifically even says there non canon.
TLDR- plzz gimme a legit source to why the comics are canon and I’ll shut up
@@RedX03Sonic Official Season 7 Ep 7
@@RedX03 maybe when bowser jr was in the paint with bowser he told him what happened and who to be mad at idk
@@RedX03death battle literally used IDW comics. character that only appeared in IDW comics was mentioned in frontiers, Ian Flynn stated that they are canon
During the end of the debate, you were making it sound like Bowser is an idiot. But in fact, he's very ingenius.... but his own ego and clumsiness counters his smarts. When it comes to direct assaults, he can be very smart. But, he utterly refuses via his ego to use deception.
Example: Bowser could fight to lead his foes to an area where more of his horde is. A more deceptive one would have those extra horde pincer attack. Bowser wouldn't due to ego, and instead just have his currently attacking troops back off to recover while using the horde that showed up to replace them. And if he were to pull a pincer attack, he would be direct about it, having his force split to either side right in front of their eyes to come from multiple directions.
Basically, he's smart with strategies, but his clumsiness and pride hinders his smarts.
....mind you, he STILL doesn't compare to Eggman's smarts, but it's closer than one would first assume due to how many times Bowser has wound up his own worst enemy from either clumsiness or ego.
In the Shadow Generations Re-Write Eggman said that he would reshape the timeline as he sees fit, which implies that the time eater has reality warping powers too, which would make sense since the Time Eater made white space and yes Sonics Multiverse is infinte due to being stated by Ian and Tails Tube, one feat that no one brought up is that in IDW Eggman was able to bend space and time on his own and create an infinite virtual dimension as stated in the Bumble Cast, the Pure Hearts also can be some sort of "Killed" like in Chapter 6 where a Pure Heart was erased by the Void and could only be restored by one character and to meet her you need to die, which would be counter productive for Bowser as he would have to take the L, the pure hearts can restore erased dimensions but they can be erased as well and the Time Eater could do the Void Ritual thing which took weeks in one snap
To the Bowser feats in the vid
1.Cherry Copies are one tap
2. The Animation is purely for entertainment and shouldnt be taken for granted for the real scale situation
3. The Chaos Emeralds could nullify any manipulation done by Wonder Flower as the Time Eaters Reality Manipulation had effect on the emeralds either or Zavok protecting himself from the Metal Virus with one chaos emerald alone via tech, what would stop Eggman from doing it to his whole army if its his tech
4. I have no idea what they did in Unleashed, it was really a one timer there maybe Ian will explain this one day
What are you talking about Sonic Unleashed for?
@@autisonm Where Eggman drained the Chaos Emeralds out of Super Sonic and summoned Dark Gaia
I think I totally disagree, I mean, Bowser has survived getting turned into a skeleton, while Eggman is just a human. But it doesn't matter who wins, This fight is awesome.
32:25 in the idw comics the metal virus is stated from starline to be transmutation. Sonic was being tranmuted and going super was able to reverse it (sure he wasn't fully transmutated, but sonic was almost fully turned) So super neo should be able to over power said transmutation of the wonder flower.
Super forms are anti hax. So it would negate transmutation, not just reverse it. You got the right answer tho
Gotta be honest, was not expecting this to be a lot different from the usual Debunk videos which is refreshing and as for the Eeath Egg Robot used for the animation that’s most likely a fusion between the movie and the games to make this fight more cinematic.
And while I still have to disagree on your takes as there are stuff that your friend didn’t bring up that can bring the Mario cosmology up to the multiversal + and infinite speed rang i’m not gonna get into it VS debating is subjected so it could’ve gone either way for both.
And while I personally don’t mine if we get more Mario vs Sonic match ups as I believe almost any matchup can be great if executed correctly it is about time we look for other matchups for the franchises (until we get Archie Sonic vs Super Mario Kun) than well, finally be done anyway Happy New Years Tony.
I didn't bring up a lot because i didn't wanna overbloat the video, it was still his debunk, so i didn't wanna get into these points that other people who still advocate for bowser have already probably said. I came to give my more unique points and leave basically :T
@@PiffleNEO That's understandable and fair man gotta respect that anyway Happy Years.
@@luigigx1172 Happy new years!
I respect your opinion but I am still siding with Bowser.
Great video btw
Honestly good vid 👍
Some points I wanna bring up here
1. Dreamy Bowser cant use wishes, otherwise he would have just wished Mario and Luigi away like he was about to do with the Dream Stone prior to it being destroyed. Since Metal Sonic, Sage, and the entire E-100 series of robots are faster than Bowser any one of them can speedblitz him to destroy the stone, especially since Bowser would be on the frontlines.
2. Infinite summoning an artificial sun would be a large enough threat to Bowser's army that he would have to pull something big/important out to get rid of it. Not only would the sun destroy like 90% of Bowser's army, but it would also destroy the Boos just by being made because they are weak to light/sunlight.
3. The Metal Virus is actually fairly strong and would need to be immediately taken out because it adapts extremely quickly. It was able to adapt to Sonic's magical speed that restores time and space, it adapted to infect Shadow who should be immune to diseases and viruses, and it was only through Silver's psychokenisis that specifically counters technology (Ian Flynn mentioned this on his Podcast) as well as chaos energy (also a counter) that they were able to rip the Metal Virus off and throw it into the sun. Eggman and Sonic characters have various methods of transmutation, so it's likely that transmutation magic wouldnt be enough or at the very least the virus could adapt to be unaffected. If this got out of hand it would also force Bowser to bring out some sort of wish granting item.
4. King Boo can put people in another dimension but most important characters on Eggman's side would have a way out, if not alone than with the help of another. Infinite's Null Space was stated to be inescapable and would prevent people that could travel dimensions from doing so because it's "closed-off" from other other dimensions.
5. Bowser cant control his Fury form. He even endangered Bowser Jr. while using that form because he was out of control. He probably would focus on the Death Egg Robot or whatever is the biggest enemy but he would likely damage his own army while fighting and probably wouldnt use items nor jump infront of the Death Egg Space Station's beam.
Tbf some points are actually true I agree with 5 since fury bowser is a hothead and same with 4 but it’s both sides as far as dreamy bowser goes dreamy bowser didn’t work because of the power of friendship as Mario and Luigi hear the cries off peach which hit thems with realisation now eggman doesn’t care about any of his people so I doubt he’ll use the power of friendship unless it’s sage the whole sun thing Kamek can quite Literally just delete it because he can also he can just give bowsers army the abilities of bowser that way it’s basically a load of bowsers vs eggman and for number 3 metal virus in the Mario RPG games bowsers army has some bs called loyalty heart or smth like that where they are unable to turn side as they see bowser as there only leader when you use spells so metal virus will most likely not work
@Jingobingo-d4m "as far as dreamy bowser goes dreamy bowser didn’t work because of the power of friendship"
Dreamy Bowser is just a stat amp from what I've seen. You're saying the power of friendship is what protected them? Then why was Bowser about to wish them away with the Dream Stone? They certainly seemed desperate to stop him from doing that so clearly it would have worked then and if Dreamy Bowser had that power still then it would have worked in that form too.
" the whole sun thing Kamek can quite Literally just delete it because he can"
Proof? Also, just making it would destroy the Boos anyways.
"he can also he can just give bowsers army the abilities of bowser"
Do you have any proof he did this on a mass scale?
" bowsers army has some bs called loyalty heart or smth like that where they are unable to turn side"
The Metal Virus isnt mind control in the traditional sense. It makes people into mindless zombies. Even then, it'd just adapt. It's the JJK Mahoraga of viruses.
@@autisonm looking at this on a more statistical value if it isn’t mind control and takes control of the brain judging from the fact that they become dry bones and other bone creatures when being burned or killed I’m gunna assume there anatomy is different as they clearly don’t have a brain if they can come back casually and the whole Kamek turning things into bowser in super Mario 3D land goomba and power ups being the leaf are shown when u kill bowser on the bridge while still having all his abilities and his immunity’s the boos ain’t rly a massive thing to loose let’s be real king boo is probably the only one but he isn’t weak to light so it wouldn’t work and the whole Kamek thing is quite literally in paper Mario he destroys Mario and Luigi’s items like nothing right at the start before the turns start and it isn’t paper Kamek since Kamek was fighting with paper Kamek when it happened and both used the wand
@@autisonm the reason I said the power of friendship for dreamy bowser if u watch the clip when Mario and Luigi are vanishing you see peach screaming there names and it brings them back clearly it’s either friendship or some memories returning type thing either way eggman doesn’t care about any android except sage and possible metal the problem is Mario isn’t a set game so every game will add more and more powers for each member while sonics is a lot more laid down if we don’t include the comics it’s like dragon ball z where they slowly get stronger each time while Mario is just random new power that’s why the longer Mario goes on the more likely it is for bowser and Mario to win the battle that’s why sonic is now losing to Mario his power just went up each game
Wait E-1000 are fast? I thought all they did was just stand there and shoot I thought only E-102 gamma and omega were only able to move fast and they don’t work for Eggman anymore so I’m I missing something
“Accept a loss or draw 25”
Sonic fans:
Alright, but in all seriousness, I do agree on some points. Eggman’s full arsenal didn’t feel taken into account, but Bowser had a counter for each of them regardless.
While Sonic feels more grounded in reality (Or as close to grounded in reality as a blue hedgehog fighting a fat balding man can be, anyways) and tries to have an explanation for everything, Mario just feels more cartoonishly strong.
I also have to say that, yeah, the Star Launcher argument does feel dumb, given that it’s a feat Mario has never done outside of utilising the launchers and shouldn’t be considered a regular feat for Mario, Eggman definitely has an advantage in the speed department and it’s not even close.
The Dream Stone + Star Rod and Chaos Emeralds + Phantom Ruby in Infinite’s hands, (Among other universe altering things in the Sonic and Mario universes)are, albeit incredibly strong, REALLY hard to find an exact way of quantifying their power. Don’t get me wrong, I felt it should’ve been factored in just as much as the next guy, but to say it’s difficult to work out who would win of different forces of that kind of power, would be a severe understatement at best.
Look, as much as I wanna say Eggman’s army’s speed and power feats treat Bowser’s own… No. I stand by the strength statement I brought up earlier, Neither of these franchises were designed with Power Scaling stuff in mind, but Mario especially has such little regard that it’s just… Not close, Kamek, King Boo, power ups like the Double Cherries, Invincibility stars, it just becomes absurd. I’m sorry, I grew up on an unhealthy amount of Sonic stuff as well, but even I can’t deny that it’s just impossible to beat something like Bowser’s army, makes you wonder how Mario does it every time.
@@tigerlover2853 Eggman also has counters for Bowsers army and for bowser's own hax so yeah, not really a good point.
Neither is saying "bowser feels more cartonish" when both are fictional and both have feats that can apply or not, it's just a way to disregard feats in favor of the "cartoon" character.
Kamek is physically weak, King Boo doesn't have hax close to Infinite at all, the power ups can be counter haxed, invincibility isn't an issue since Eggman can hurt Super Sonic so he has counters to that too.
Yeah, no. Don't give that soppy point of "I love both but there is just no way" while you don't even tackle on the very well made points, had to say it, the video made.
@@nehen2225🧂
@@nehen2225 saltXDXD
Just want to let you know, when you were talking about the the universes per timeline for sonic you forget about maginary world existing in each timeline as well.
I mean. It's hard to believe that the grand stars can beat the chaos emeralds even though it's acknowledged that they're not as strong.
Having thousands of power stars compared to 7 chaos emeralds feels irrelevant since the emeralds are implied to have limitless energy right? Or am I wrong on that?
Now, they both have time limits. So maybe that can be a reason to put them in a tie.
I don't know if the Grand Stars have a time limit, but I explain in the video why it doesn't matter if Bowser used all 14-20 Grand Stars since the seven Chaos Emeralds are far more powerful than all the Grand Stars combined.
@tonysonic456 Yeah, that's probably true.
But I'm not gonna lie. I was cheering when Bowser's Grand Star beat Super Metal Sonic. 😅
@@NoHandle44 chaos emeralds can still be overwhelmed don’t forget that
@@NoHandle44 well sometimes since sonic has been knocked out of súper in sonic 3 and sonic frontiers
@@st2k27 That is because there was a special connection to the emeralds in those cases, which is the only real way to get rid of super form.
The thing your friend neglects to realize, intentional or not, is that the super form is a walking anti hax. Therefore, you couldn't wish Metal away once he transforms. Plus, he even states that Bowser's clones lack his durability. Whereas clones made by the phantom ruby are equal to the originals in every stat. Nothing stops Eggman from spamming endless clones of Metal Sonic, all of which scale above Bowser. Bowser's best speed feat puts him at inaccessible, which is a tier below immeasurable.
Tails states that "when the Sonics accelerate through time, they fix space, returning color and life." That's the definition of immeasurable speed. Metal Sonic is stated to be Sonic's equal and Infinite is stated to be the strongest foe Sonic has faced. That puts both of them at immeasurable speed. So what you're telling me is Bowser has clones of equal speed to himself, meaning they would ALSO get blitzed due to the huge speed gap, they don't have nearly as much durability as Bowser does, which is still lower than that of Eggman's best, AND Bowser can't even wish them away as I previously mentioned.
If all of that wasn't bad enough, there are MULTIPLE phantom rubies. I don't know why Eggman was only given one. They also didn't give him the Hard Boiled Heavies or his super form, which could have been his wincon since DB takes characters at their best. If he doesn't get all his forms, Kamek shouldn't get chance time
They also incorrectly scale the death egg robot. They used a feat from "A" death egg robot, but not THE death egg robot. There's a big difference between the main death egg robot and one of the mass produced versions in Forces. They also incorrectly describe the phantom ruby as illusion. It really manipulates reality. Tails says "as long as we're under its control, it's part of our reality." If that wasn't enough, Eggman was about to drop the sun on them, which he said himself would wipe them out. Why would he expect them to be finished off by an illusion? If it weren't real, it couldn't physically kill them. I concede that Forces is plagued by bad witting, but the fact of the matter is that the phantom ruby manipulates reality for real, despite what DB and other parts of Forces led you to believe
The only way Bowser stands a chance is in equal stats or 1v1 with just hands. Most of his machines scale to Sonic, who outright clears Bowser on the sheer basis of much better feats. As for the Wonder Flower, I reiterate that super is an anti hax so you can't transmutate a super. He also says that certain items "would do something. Not much, but something," which doesn't weigh on the fight at all if you yourself said it won't do much
This comment comes from someone raised on Mario games, so I want none of those bias accusations, sorry for writing my own Bible
I respectfully agree at the very end of the video. Unless they are willing to do a 3rd matchup between Mario and Sonic, I just feel like ScrewAttack/DB should not do another Mario VS Sonic character matchup, or better yet leave Sonic out of it entirely.
I've said in one of the community posts a few months ago that if their opponents (from Mario or not) have feats that are much greater or makes no sense to be overpowered than theirs, it's literally enough to make Sonic fans hyperactively angry as hell, *EVEN* more than they already have been.
They should end it in a draw to symbolize how outdated this rivalry has become.
Hey dude!
@@PiffleNEO helloz!
I like really this video and certainly better than most of the other debunk videos out there. Question for Piffle is Can Eggman’s Army just speed blitz The Koopa Troop before Bowser gets a hold of the cherry item or Kamek swapping the chaos emeralds?
I think something that gets lost in this debates that Death Battle actually took into account, are the characters character.
To be fair, i am not that familiar with Sonic as a whole, but one of Eggmans biggest character flaws is that he for all his intellect rarely seem to think things through. The best example i know is Sonic Unleashed, where Eggman didn`t anticipate Dark Gaia to collapse at the beginning ("I don`t care about its weight issues.") or to simply lash out at him, like it did at the end. The reason Sage, Metal Sonic and Infinite are the only ones accompaning Eggman is that things like the Time Eater are an unstable factor due to having their own consciousness, a risk Eggman wouldn`t want to take or Sage propably advised against. Metal and Infinite are loyal to Eggman due to him being their power supplier/repair guy.
Speaking of, Sage for all her strengths is still bound by what Eggman authorizes and what not. Her calculations are limited through that. Also i think the "can think up millions of strategies in seconds" is a bit oversold. In an active battle every second is a changing factor that has to be re-calculated. And a calculator can be beaten by simply deciding to wing it.
I am not sure, but doesn`t Neo Metal also has the problem that the moment things are going his way, his Ego gets the better of him? Pretty sure he could easily fall for a trap like King Boos painting, the moment this happens. Also i think his copy ability is a bit oversold, cause well, you have to witness something to be able to copy it, which in a huge scale battle is a bit much.
Also Infinite, well what is there to say. Infinite has clearly an ego problem. He loves to flaunt his power in everyones face, which is why he was easily blindsided by King Boos summoned Thwomp. Also, unlike Metal, his power hinges on the Phantom Ruby, so he is easily out of the fight the moment he loses it. (Which also applies to King Boo and his crown.)
Compared to Bowser and his forces:
Bowsers and King Boos biggest flaws are their anger issues. However they also draw strength from that. Not only are they pulling out all the stops the moment they get mad (with King Boo to a suicidal extent) in Bowsers case it also amplifies him physically. I think this can be counted as the reason why Dream Fury Bowsers beam overpowered Neo Metals. Bowser was "all gas, no breaks" in that moment, while by the time Neo realised that he has to give more, it was already too late. (Also yeah, combining power-ups is also something that Death Battle took into account.)
Regarding Kamek and Bowser Jr. their characters are not that flawed. Even Juniors brattier side is usually put aside the moment things get serious. Metal sure did the right thing by punching Kamek out of the fight though, considering how Kamek usually amplifies Bowser even in powered-up states. The one thing i am not sure is legit, is Jr.s paint stopping Neo Metal for a few seconds.
In regards of powers Death Battle also didn`t show Bowser Jr. and his mechs and Bowsers ships or King Boos technomantic powers (he was able to pull Luigi out of E. Gadds teleportation and into his dimension at the end of Luigis mansion 2). But i think Death Battle was going for a magic vs. technology matchup, which also influenced the fight in Bowsers favor, since magic trumps tech.
This matchup is so good, but the one issue I have with it is the amount of interpretation required for the winner to be clear. For example: Eggman and Bowser could potentially both reach infinite tiers of strength and immesurable speeds using the dreamstone and solaris, but if the high ends are used for both then the debate still has insane nuance with one argument I find disingenuous about it being Bowsers natural body being that strong is a bigger advantage than Eggman having it across different mechs. Depending on how you interpret the final cutscene of frontiers Eggman could have Sage control those other mechs with her also potentially still having the Titans. Aside from this a big factor in this debate is the validity in statements as both are their own hypemen and can't be taken at face value. Eggman doing this in essentially every game bragging stating it would be impossible to defeat him (I am currently blanking on specific examples, but he does it a lot) and Bowser stating that he could just erase Mario immediately (like, I dont understand why he didnt do it then, if somebody knows please tell me). However, the statements made by guides should be more reliable to use as they aren't said as boast, but to assess the insane scale of it all. The reason I bring this up is infinite being stated to be the most powerful enemy they have faced yet (this potentially meaning that he is above solaris) with sonic succeeding in beating him in base form. Despite the debate tho I am incredibly happy with the episode and I think this is one of the best death battles.
Bowser saying he can wipe away Mario and Luigi and then not doing that is all down to a single reason.
In Dream Team, Bowser is ABOUT to remove Mario and Luigi’s permits to exist, when he’s interrupted by Peach and Starlow.
Like Boomstick says at the end of the video, Bowser’s not an idiot, usually. He’s smart enough to grasp the concept that as long as he’s holding the Dream Stone, he’s basically God.
As long as he’s _holding_ it.
He’s also smart enough to realize that so long as he has to keep a hold of the Dream Stone to keep it to his advantage, it can be taken out of his hold. And the Mario Bros have pulled the “I know you win but we win” card before.
So, a simple solution. Get rid of them now. Assert himself as supreme, unchallenged ruler of the entire Universe, or Multiverse if he wants to go that high, then put steps in place (or have Kamek do it) to ensure that the new rule can’t simply be swept away the way it was introduced. He’ll just bring the Bros back when he’s done and (be) beat(en by) them then.
But then someone did yoink the stone from him, just not the Mario Bros.
When he inhaled the Dream Stone’s Fragments? Became Dreamy Bowser?
All bets were off.
Mario and Luigi are still the pair of thorns in his side that have annoyed him for (approaching) four decades as of this comment.
Now?
Now the bros have to painfully beat the power out of Bowser, because there was NO “yoinking” it at that point. He’s hated them longer than Sonic’s even been a game series, and now that this power was reliably in his control?
Bowser at that point was going to make them regret every Goomba stomped, Koopa kicked, Castle crushed, and plan foiled for every moment they’ve even known each other existed.
It’s *personal*
Eggman, when throttling Dr Starline, boldly proclaimed that he doesn’t simply carpet bomb Sonic because it would be too easy (it also wouldn’t work, but I doubt Eggman really cared when he was stressing his point) and that there was a _right_ way to eliminate a long time nemesis.
Bombing is simply to impersonal, simply removing them from existence without much grandeur is too impersonal, and between Bowser and Mario? Things are VERY personal.
Getting rid of them is the smart thing to do, but not enough for Bowser to outright ignore the years of losses dealt to him by their hands.
He’s going to make sure that if their rivalry ends it’s ONE way and one way ONLY.
A no-holds-barred fight to the end between the Mario Bros and the Koopa King.
@I.T.P tbf this argument kind of supports the theory that Bowser wouldn't just immediately erase him especially since one of Eggmans weaknesses would be a great counter to it as he is cocky and makes fights with him personal. He would most likely boast heavily or attempt to aggravate Bowser to the point where Bowser would want to personally beat him. I could still be wrong about this, but it just doesn't feel like an in character way that Bowser would act in response to fighting Eggman. It's definitely a win con, but I personally feel as if it wouldn't be very in character for Bowser to act that way and I think that Eggman would cause more than enough annoyance to warrant Bowser treating it as a personal vendetta to beat him.
@ my comment was in response to your confusion about why Bowser didn’t wipe away Mario and Luigi when he said he would.
I do not wish to engage in the whole Bowser v Eggman nonsense. I like both characters and would’ve cheered regardless of who won in the og video. If you all want to debate who wins, go ahead, please leave me out of that
@I.T.P I'm sorry, if I annoyed you with my reply I was just thinking that it wouldn't be in character for them to act that specific way and thought characterization playing a role was interesting
@@ArkhamMaster.
Nah, it takes a lot to annoy me, and giving your own view point on a character will definitely not do that. I just spent so long typing that hoping to leave out the whole debate and at least to clear up some of the confusion you seemed to have about Bowser's decision making in Dream Team.
Believe me I've been in comment chains with far more infuriating people (And you've done nothing to make that list), it's the internet after all.
Yeah, I don't know much about Sonic series, but even I found it odd how they mentioned what Solaris did and didn't try to better quantify it thanks to that one feat alone. I mean, considering how hard it is to measure such, I can't blame them for assuming it's a tie due to the whole 'infinite power' assumption. But comparing the speed of traversing the galaxy(which I still think shouldn't be discounted), that should still not compare to an entity destroying numerous timelines simultaneously.
I mean, sure, it's a lot faster than I assumed Bowser to be, but it does make sense to compare his speed to Mario. But even WITH that, that one line about Solaris made me think the speed feat is not properly measured on the Sonic side of things. I mean, strength and other stats is one thing, but speed? Yeah, that just felt off for the measurement for Eggman's side.
don't forget that Waluigi just casually beat up Bowser without even trying
One of the other things that gets me is that they said in the time it took Eggman to take over the planet in half in that time, Bowser took over the universe (I forgot the exact line lol) but... Eggman's goal is Litterly just to make a theme park...that's it
16:14 This is probably a nitpick, but it has to be said - when we talk about deleting timelines, and how many universes there are, what kind of power that takes... I think we have to consider a thing or two. My best guess is as follows:
Whether you believe there's a difference between timelines and alternate universes/realities is..subjective (Looking at you, CW), we do have to concede that they are not necessarily created equal. Consider the DragonBall Xenoverse, something covered in another Death Battle episode - some changes in reality are big enough to require one of a finite number of "slots" for such universes, and some don't. I think I can make a fair argument that not only is this the case in Sonic, but that as a result some worlds don't survive until a multiverse-ending event.
That fair argument is based, at least in part, on Shadow the Hedgehog. You can say, as you have, there are 300+ realities, but first of all, for simplicity's sake, try to remember they all end up in one of 10 places. Dozens of them, for example, end with Shadow killing the creator of the Android race (Eggman) before conquering the universe so Androids rule. Now, some realities are likely self-cannibalizing. For example, if you're an android and rule with an iron fist by killing all who get in your way, all sentient life dies, then the android race breaks down and also dies. There's a...nonzero chance this ends with a galaxy void of sentient life, organic or mecha, that kinda just collapses on itself as a result. And again, when I say "this ends," I really mean "every variation of this could end..."
So, what am I getting at? Well, when you try to figure out what multiversal-ending powers or people accomplished, quantifying it is a fool's errand because there's no way of knowing for sure how many timelines or universes are left to erase by the time that power is activated. So, the minute they started talking about Bowser surviving the universe's rebirth, or you talked about Solaris' reality-warping powers? I didn't just take those calculations with a grain of salt, I poured myself a spoonful and applied generously. At that point, I'm just along for the ride.
Some other points for Bowser having decently high chances of winning are:
1. We’ve never seen Bowser’s bones break or even crack, meaning they must be more durable than his body
2. Bowser has access to multiple invincibility power ups, some don’t even have a timer, which also work for the cherry clones
3. It took a bit of time but at the end you can see Kamek return perfectly fine, meaning he was only launched far away by Super Neo Metal, not killed or badly injured
16:36 you forgot about amginary world which was stated to a 4th dimension and is canon
I wasn't sure if Sonic Shuffle was canon; so I left it out.
And it was stated that every dream is a universe in amginary world and multiple times the pressoshes stone was stated to have
@@tonysonic456it’s ok everyone does, even I did at first till I saw the scans of speeda but you’re points are strong. oh and string theory is canon to sonic because of the sonic boom universe is canon to the original universe. I do like the animation and music of this battle but the ending pissed me off so I plan to do my own animation any tips?
I dont think the other mechs were shown because it may be harder to make switching and controlling multiple mechs reasonable. In addition, Kamek wasnt likely utilized as much due to it being pointless to show everything Kamek can negate. If i remember correctly, death battle reaches a conclusion then has the battle animated to fit into it. Also, the koopalings werent included, who are strong, durable, and possess fairly powerful magic.
While i disagree with some things i also agree with many other things. Its glad to see both a healthy take and trying to have common sense with a few things, its something you dont see often. I would say that while i would lean more on Eggman winning there are a fee things that to me are also a bit iffy, per example i am not an expert in every detail from both franchises and there sre a few games that i didnt play but for what i read they didnt defeat Solaris by force but by removing the threath through tine time and i dont think the time eater is universal since i dont remember it being stated anything like that and everything we saw it doing was around city to country level. Also while i agree in your takes about Bowser not being as powerfull as they claim i feel like similar arguments could be said about Eggman. As for the armies going in Eggman's favour while i get their point about Bowser's i think they exagerated what they can do with that. I agree with the logic but i dont remember them getting to do anything similar to the levels they talk about and i dont see how they could be so effective same with their arsenal not being that great (for the most part) compared with Eggman's. And while i get their point about Eggman's army i dont see how it is a disadvantage, his army is self sustained for the most part and the automated ones would work on unison and the heavy hitters are loyal while also having Sage directing things. I the end i would say Eggman's takes the edge due to having more potency and said direction. I think i could keep going but i feel i said enough
As for your video i feel this is definetly the way to go
Bowser is also stated to have created the worlds in mario 64 theyre most likely seperate universes but i have to check the guide book again
That's said in the English version of 64
The original japanese game and manual says that Bowser is going into the paintings and establishing a monster kingdom in them
Probably can still be used but i wouldn't call it 100% concrete
Especially that Mario Galaxy 2 does kinda confirmed that some zone were already created and Odyssey showed us that the painting are like teleporters
Yep, this is actually the correct thing because if the english version was the original context then dimentio would get destroyed by bowser with ease.@@RackerTheRascalMashup
@@Skypatroller_BenCDbowser mostly discovered them, create it himself. Because it won't make sense for him to create instead of destroy.
This is probably one of the best debunk/debate videos I've seen on this concept. While I personally think Bowser is more likely to win, It's by a very small amount, and there are plenty of scenarios where Eggman wins. And I very much agree that the Mario vs. Sonic ideas should be done after this completely. And I fully respect your opinion that Eggman is more likely to win. Even if I don't fully agree.
Nice way to misspell worst
@mynameisntimportant1374
I wasn't trying to spell "worst." This is a really good video. And if you disagree, that's your opinion. And if you have a problem with me having an opinion, or if you have a problem with Tony Sonic, then you can take your complaint and tell it to someone who actually cares.
@@jdepicadventures you responded so you care and I already expressed my hate for this video and there is no way you actually think this is a good video
@mynameisntimportant1374 Responding doesn't mean that I care. If I cared, I'd have consideration or concern for your remarks, and I don't. And I never said this was a perfect video. But it is still pretty good. And better than most debunk videos that i've seen on this topic, especially ones that say Bowser never had a chance against Eggman. At least he acknowledges that there are scenarios where Bowser could win. But you think what you want, I guess, again I really don't care. Have a good day.
@ if you didn’t care you would have ignored me
It’s unironically the worst of the debunks out there even worse than the Tyler one and I don’t care if they said bowser had no chance I care for the scaling used
You too I suppose
9:43 And that's called confirmation bias
No, that's called using your brain and not beating a dead horse. But if you insist then go ahead, prove that bowser is smarter than egg man because I'm wait lmaoo
Despite personally thinking bowser wins
I will say I do totally get why you might think eggman wins
And I think you made some good points
Great vid as always Tony
Personally I am very grateful for your analysis on why Eggman should’ve been the winner and I am a much bigger fan of the Sonic franchise but I’m also a fan of the Mario series so I wasn’t all that upset about the outcome that death battle gave us. Although I should mention I do think they REALLY lowballed Infinite.
16:16 Surprised you didn't bring up the TailsTube statement.
17:21 Also the fact that the Chaos Emeralds are also stated to grant wishes, proved in 06 when Elise resurrected Sonic.
@@shadowkirby7210they don’t grant wishes they only have resurrection
@@shadowkirby7210 they don’t grant wishes they only grant resurrection
@st2k27 It was explicitly stated that Elise wished for Sonic to be resurrected
Also in 06, Blaze states that they can grant miracles
Yes we do need a 3rd mario vs sonic fight and this one should involve a tag team mario and lugi vs sonic and tails
I don't know about that. Tails is kind of dead weight compared to the teamwork that Mario & Luigi have showcased. Maybe sometime in the future, Tails will get another game of his own and get some cool stuff to use, but until then, the matchup feels more like Mario & Luigi vs Sonic rather than Mario & Luigi vs Sonic & Tails.
Sonic and Shadow would be a better duo.
To me, this feels like Mob Vs Tatsumaki again. Sure running this fight 100 times, Eggman could score 40 or more victories. But I believe more often than not Bowser would win.
Honestly either could win in my opinion same with Mario vs Sonic because I have enough of Toxic Mario fans which as a big Mario fan we don't claim those Mario fans as real Mario fans downplaying Sonic to make Mario win and Sonic fans which also as a big Sonic fan do not claim as real Sonic Fans downplaying Mario to make Sonic Win.
Even though I enjoy Mario games more I still enjoy Sonic a lot which as a fun fact about me I played Sonic Riders and Sonic heroes a ton as a kid because they are not only fun Sonic games but good Sonic games.
I honestly think it would either be a tie, or Mario would win via cartoon BS. Its just that I have scene WAY to many sonic fans meat riding sonic and eggman while completely ignoring the feats of the Mario cast.
@@truegamer7760 Saying sonic fans meat ride while you say that mario wins because of cartoon bs when he doesn't have anything even close to what toon characters can really do is wild
This video was inevitable.
sorry but i cant agree with what you said on 28:07 since on 33:53 for a split second you can see egg drone from sonic movie universe so since they are there that means movie death egg robot can be there too
22:44 😆
27:07 😆
28:39 😆
One thing I’m surprised they didn’t use with a shadow androids because correct me if I’m wrong, weren’t the shadow android comparable to the original shadow in a sense that they will be on equal terms to that shadow at that point seems like something that would really turn the tide
Great video/arguments. I think Bowser wins because I like him more. But in all seriousness, I think Bowser wins. Death battle had to include both Bowser's and Dr eggman's armies in order to give Eggman a Fighting Chance. Without his army, Eggman isn't that threatening. While Bowser is. Hell, sage and metal Sonic carry Eggman super hard. Eggman needs metaphorical crutches.
I dunno. Eggman has had several mechs over the years that make him pretty intimidating. Some of which have gotten him super close to winning in the games.
I know this has nothing to do with the video but I loved your year of sonic videos and I was wondering if I can do a similar thing on my channel
I wanna see Archie Sonic's Eggman vs Mario Kun's Bowser
The speed feats ill mention for bowser is that in mario party 8 he built a machine thats stated to beyond time and space
@@imthecoolest3884 Does it prove to be so in the actual game?
@tonysonic456 i don't know why it wouldn't? It's shown to be in space and the statement is that it's beyond time and space
@@imthecoolest3884 You realize that you can't just take boastful statements at face value, right? Also, being in space doesn't make it BEYOND space. If it's in space and doesn't leave said space, then it isn't beyond space.
@tonysonic456 you said earlier that eggman has higher dimensional machines that I agree with but most of his battles take place in space that wouldn't just automatically nerf his machines just because it's not currently in a higher dimension
Same logic would apply to any higher dimensional stuff bowser has and can use
Breaking the speed formula is not new in mario. In Yoshis new island its implied Bowser clawed his way through time and space. He can build machines that are above time and space. And he scales to people like wario who defeated the universal back jewel the mario cosmology has alot of structures as we'll which werent mentioned in this video
Bowser wouldve been so cooked if the hard boiled heavies came out. Sadly, death battle had to nerf eggman so hard by taking them out of the equation 😔
What about the Koopalings? Don't they have better feats then the Heavies.
@@ChardleyLouissimple, the animator had to make a hard choice between include the koopalings or make extra scenes focusing on both trios
Eggman, metal and sage
Bowser, junior and kamek
@MEH-y1k It didn't take them out though. They just weren't in the animation, they might have been in the original storyboards as the koopalings were there but really having them in would be nice, but isn't really necessary.
Also the koopalings are just better than the heavies at practically everything.
@@BozoDClown-lp9zh i don't think he mentioned something about them in the storyboards but anyways i understand your point about this.
@ChardleyLouis I would say they somewhat scale to JR, but don't have access to all of his weapons, I.E. his paint brush and kamek's wand. Although I feel like their magic would definitely help annoy or make metal Sonic's day worse.
36:35
Ok but…. What about The Deadly Six verses The Koopalings (minus Bowser Jr.)? That could be interesting on paper.
The koopalings no diff the deadly six
I don't know why you consider Color Splash as a separate timeline, but I know two that you didn't include: Yoshi's Wooly World and Yoshi's Crafted World. Just as a minor addition.
@@joshuana5132 Color Splash isn’t a separate timeline. At one point in Color Splash, you travel to a parallel universe. That was what I was referring to.
Also, Yoshi’s Wooly World and Yoshi’s Crafted World are a little tricky to pinpoint because it’s hard to tell if they’re just adventures the real Yoshi went on and the yarn and craft look is just an aesthetic, or they’re actually separate worlds made out of yarn and crafts.
@@tonysonic456 Actually in the first scene kamek transmute the island and the planet into a wooly and book so thats the thing
I love this video. i can tell how much effort was put into it, and the Sonic vs. mario concept should end with bowser vs eggman for the game atleast I'd still love to see lore goofy ideas like dic sonic vs dic mario,dic bowser vs dic eggman,movie sonic vs movie mario,boom knuckles vs tv show donkey kong,or even archie sonic vs paper mario but I do agree sonic and mario characters should fight other fanchies idea pop up like sonic vs megaman,mario vs kirby,movie knuckles vs yang xiao long (a matchup I made one day),shard vs V,or metal sonic vs cell still thos love this video
24:36-24:41
People complained that Infinite was wasted potential in Forces, Death Battle practically disrespected him
They made him as accurate as possible.
Shows up, has a monologue and cool moment and then gets beaten in a humiliating fashion.
Id personally say bowser would win a little more duo to the fact well his heavy hiters like boo and himself cant die
@CallumSmith-zm6ls King Boo can’t “die”, but he can be taken out of the fight. Also, even if he reanimated as Dry Bowser, all it takes to beat that form is a hard enough hit since he was taken out in NSMB by dropping him off a bridge and specifically had to be thrown in a cauldron to revive him.
@tonysonic456 while I agree that boo can be defeated and I agree with some of your points and I do respect your opinion on who wins like if you think eggman wins more often I wouldn't necessarily disagree but I personally think there are lots of ways for bowser to win and to be honest there's ways both could win really but in my opinion I think bowser wins more and to be honest I like both of them as characters but I've mostly been more of an bowser fan since I grew up in the early 2000s playing mario galaxy but again I respect your opinion
I want to see someone who isn’t bias to debunk the Crash vs. Spyro episode for a while now. They used all versions of Spyro even though Legend of and Skylanders are two completely different versions of him.
I think Skylanders was only mentioned, but yeah, it's a little weird how they composited Spyro but not Crash.
here's my reasoning:
Physical stats: in the various Mario sports games, bowser has been constantly shown as the power character, with the highest strength. and in each instance, the power of bowser has been higher than Yoshi. even then, it's still a video game, and the protagonist has to win, so there's that. even if we assume that bowser is not stronger than yoshi due to his defeats, we can at least scale him to yoshi. also, side note: eggman has shown these feats in a mech or with lazers/inventions. his actual physical feets outside of the death egg is about human levels I think
Powers: I agree, but yet again, the rules of death battle indicates that characters do not know each other unless specified, or something. also, I think they mean that the crazy stuff can't be all used at once. there is also a pop us saying that the clown car can easily cross the universe or something. needs more recharch
Army: I know I am going out of context of video, but I feel confident about how to analise it first, and the trump cards is a bit too long for today.
Fistly, bowser could make clones of himself too, or just clone metal sonic, making the infinite/metal sonic combo cancelled. also, Mario enemies are strong too. they have been shown to have special shots in golf, and according to Mario maker, a single goomba can lift bowser. also, the relationship between infinite and eggman is a bit fishy, as eggman betrays infinite, ore something that could make infinite stay out of the fight
the ending is still good, and I like how your friend adds a counterpoint for the video.
This was a good debunk honestly. Most of the debunks I've watched do come from some kind of unfair bias, or have contradictory explanations. And while I do see some bias in this, I'm not gonna call that since that would make me hypicritcal since I think Bowser's win is justified. I can definitely see where you are coming from and how you think Eggman wins. Overall, good video! I also liked how you got in someone in to make your debate more interesting and I can see the side of that argument as well. I enjoyed it this video and I hope you have good new years :D!
If metal got 15 more seconds of screen time the death battle would be more like metal sonic vs bowser
I think you're giving eggman a little more credit then he should be.
To be honest I see Bowser vs Eggman close like a 55/45, or 60/40 win rate
I understand your points but i still enjoy the episode
2:53 eggman should have NOT won and you’re only coping
5:24 and bowser also defeated yoshi in multiple occasions ( mario world,Mario galaxy 2 etc )
7:15 if you’re using narrative to scale then then you’re going by the logic that eggman always uses his strongest stuff at the last moment
7:26 eggman machine never kept up with sonic at all and faster than light ? Baby bowser scales to baby Mario who dodged alien ships who could interstellar distances in a matter of minutes
8:09 the argument is that Mario can react to being launched to other galaxies in a matter of seconds when he lands to another planet and he scales to power star amped beings and the power star can easily cross intergalactic distances in seconds
8:55 hastly generalization
9:16 said machinery always being speedblitzed by sonic casually
10:40 also he stated it twice and kept the whole game charging his power doubting bowser statements but taking eggman literally only shows your bias
11:21 thanks for proving you didn’t play dream team it was destroyed by starlow and peach and that would only upscales them
12:04 stated multiple times in game to be there multiple dream worlds again just say you didn’t play dream team and save yourself the embarrassment
12:19 you do know that it’s a multiverse of dreams and not every multiverse works under many worlds interpretation also the dream depot
13:11 I still can’t believe you’re talking when it shows you have no idea of what you’re talking about the dream stone is the embodiment of every good dream and in Mario there are infinite dreamers making the dream stone contain infinite dreams
13:45 gameplay mechanics, dreams where stated multiple times to be infinite in Mario ( Mario party 5, mario bros 2 etc )
13:57 how does this debunk infinite size 💀 ? This is only suggesting bowser has limited imagination and it’s not even true cause in scene after bowser eats more meat to become bigger
14:47 nice theory based on nothing anyway
15:29 knowledge claim debunked later in the game
15:48 so does Mario
16:09 sonic stating himself he couldn’t beat Solaris even silver and shadow help and had to blew off his flame
16:31 there are only 8 universes in the Arabian nights
17:06 and don’t forget sonic DOES NOT SCALE TO SOLARIS
17:15 imagine using other media when that other media has base shadow one shotting super Neo metal sonic and sonic moping the floor with Neo metal in base
17:36 they didn’t interrupt anything and they had to specifically catch bowser off guard also even if they did interrupt the wish it was needed both starlow star power and peach wish power and eggman has none of that at his disposal
17:51 Neo super metal not being able to reach to base shadow
18:03 wow if only bowser didn’t do a similar feat in base before the Nintendo 64 was even a thing …. Culex boss fight from super Mario rpg
18:31 so does literally every Mario and fictional character
18:55 someone clearly doesn’t know how cosmology works
19:23 it’s a parallel world
19:44 someone didn’t play odyssey 💀🙏 the power moons where confirmed to be another shape of the power stars
20:05 the lumas can become power stars
20:15 it’s been stated countless times to be infinite
21:12 oh yeah artifact that defeated beings who could create dreams vs extremely limited fodder who could control one dream
21:25 stop lying just cause you don’t know anything about either series doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be mentioned
21:55 so you don’t know anything about either Mario or sonic ? Cause Mario galaxy and tailstube both confirmed infinite multiverses for the franchises
22:31 someone doesn’t know what higher infinities are
23:31 good lord the ignorance is killing me, the chaos heart targeted all the cosmology including the dream depot and all the higher dimensions
23:41 bowser was literally one of the 4 heroes of the light prognosticus who were destined to find the pure hearts and the pure hearts created universes and are the embodiment of love they would annihilate the time eater on sight
24:31 translation : you have no idea where either scale and you noticed just how much you’ve been spitting nonsense
24:55 a star that caps at island level ? Don’t make laugh also infinite “stars” when any ice flower user : 💀
25:55 anyone who played frontiers knows sage said multiple times the titans could beat sonic and sonic always proved her wrong
26:45 eggman army has neither speed,power or intelligence and damn no loyalty guess no army
33:39 that you should never make a debunk video ever again and there is no existent reality where eggman wins and you’re only saying your whole yappery cause you don’t know any other Mario vs sonic matchup and would be biased if the sonic characters would lose i can’t believe I’m saying this but this might be the worst “debunk” on this deathbattle toghether Tyler
And thank you for not doing your damn research, it’s obvious you didn’t actually listened to what he said and too much of a Mario fan to at least hear him out. He made great points and even gave death battle credit for making valid points. He showed proof and evidence of his opinion and even made counterclaims about it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not some random Sonic fan, but it’s painfully obvious death battle was somewhat glazing bowser’s team because for one, super neo Metal Sonic is powered by the master emerald and not the chaos emeralds, and since the master emerald’s power is greatly above the chaos emeralds, it means that it can match the grant star. Another thing they got wrong is that the phantom ruby doesn’t make just illusions (play Sonic forces to do your own research) it’s proven that infinite can just make countless and COUNTLESS clones of neo metal Sonic’s that can speed blitz the whole army. Or as SonicTony said, drop a whole sun and nuke the battlefield. And actually Eggman did make robots that can occupy super Sonic as just listed them in the v I d e o. It’s not about him be salty, if about him stating his own opinion about the outcome, even I’m pointing out my own facts that connect to his. And if you hate the video so much then just don’t watch the damn video.
Did you even read my comment or just hating without doing your own research. I did watch the death battle there were points death battle forgotten about, how about you do your own research and figure it out yourself, not here to argue or do a back-and-forth, but it’s obvious that you should do your own scaling instead of listening to a RUclips video.
Asked
@@Epicsans972 those weren’t the same metal sonics btw but yea I guess the phantom ruby was kinda downplayed
The starrod bro… the starrod
Wouldn't eggman technically have the shadow androids
Infinite losing to a thwomp was disrespectful
But funny
And cut out is blatantly called a higher plane of existence
While I respect your opinion, I still personally side with Bowser on this one. Though keep in mind, I am not a vs debater at all and only notice some off points at random times. Not to mention, while both characters are some of my favorite villains in fiction, I personally have more of a connection to Bowser, and seeing him win despite all the crazy stuff brought up for Eggman during the waiting period was one of the happiest moments for me as a death battle fan. No disrespect to your opinion. You are definitely more well versed in the debating side than I am, but I am still Team Koopa to this day.
Also, while I do think Mario vs Sonic 3 could be cool, I agree that it shouldn’t happen immediately after this
I don't think a sonic vs mario will ever be a good thing. Because mario fans will lose it and try to use the most busted version of mario to justify mario being able to somehow stomp sonic. And it'd be just chaos because some hussies can't accept that a blue blur can just beat a plumber.
@@SansINess53 mario downplay is crazy
@@st2k27 what? Sonic basically has immeasurable speed at a consistent scaling, while mario at best is mostly MFTL, his immeasurable speed feats only happened and were not stated to actually be caused by his actual speed, for example. The stars that launch mario to other galaxies, are only done by the stars not mario.
Eggman does have some very impressive tech, but, like with most of his fights against Sonic, I think his arrogance would get the best of him.
He can definitely be arrogant at points, but so can Bowser. You could probably make the same argument for him too.
Respectfully, I think Bowser wins because of King Boo and Bowser Jr
So you give Bowser vs Eggman a 6/10
Not what I was saying at all, and you know it.
Remember, Mario characters are gag characters so some of the feets shouldn't be taken seriously
About Mario speed feats...
Mario/Luigi (at least on his own) should definitely scale to both Power Stars and Grand Stars. Power Stars are the fuel source for Starship Mario, which Bowser was able to hit mid-flight. Starship Mario is able to cross through universes and space and time (as stated by Lubba). Mario/Luigi was able to beat Bowser multiple times while powered by a Grand Star, so Mario/Luigi should scale to not only its Power, but its speed as well (the Power Star's telekinesis being able to help Mario travel across space and scaling above people/things like Rosalina, Lumas, and Mini Stars should help round this out).
There are a lot more faster than light feats across the Marioverse too. Dreamy Luigi jumping to constellations, Mario and Dreamy Luigi fighting the Zeekeeper in a dimensional rift, Dribble and Spitz driving across the cosmos, the Millennium Star traveling from the center of the universe to Earth in seconds, Mario/Luigi outracing Prankster Comets, outpacing Black Holes, etc. (some feats listed can debatably reach incalculable speeds). Neither Bowser or Eggman are gonna get blitzed imo.
I would like to point out that the Zeekeeper fight and Luigi jumping to constellations happened in the Dream World, a dimension where characters can do things they normally can’t in the real world. So I would take feats within the Dream World with a grain of salt.
Starship Mario meanwhile, if I remember correctly, was attacked offscreen by Bowser; so whether or not it was hit mid flight is a little iffy. Even if it was, that doesn’t mean that Mario can scale to its travel speed nor does it close the speed gap between Bowser and Metal Sonic.
@@tonysonic456
"Starship Mario meanwhile, if I remember correctly, was attacked offscreen by Bowser; so whether or not it was hit mid flight is a little iffy. Even if it was, that doesn’t mean that Mario can scale to its travel speed nor does it close the speed gap between Bowser and Metal Sonic."
Thats mean Bowser can tagged in mid fly starship with his meteors thats showed in a cinematic something to atleast in reaction can be scaled up to MFTL specially since that ship can travel trough galaxies in a mere seconds
"I would like to point out that the Zeekeeper fight and Luigi jumping to constellations happened in the Dream World, a dimension where characters can do things they normally can’t in the real world. So I would take feats within the Dream World with a grain of salt."
Mario and luigi in physical form can scaled to zeekeper in base and zeekeper kept up with reamy luigi so the speed comparison is good
Also zeekeper can travel trought dimensions by flying over
@ The Zeekeeper tore those dimensional rifts himself so you can’t really apply that logic to him. You can kind of do that for Luigi, but we do legitimately see Dreamy Luigi jump through space to use his special moves all the time in the dreams (plus a Mario character jumping absurdly high is something that happens outside of dream worlds so I don’t see why those two feats would be weird to consider)
Also Lubba claims that they /ran into/ Bowser, implying they were mid flight when getting attacked.
Also Bowser was able tag Starship Mario mid flight with an attack so he definitely would scale to the ship’s speed
@@wooly4648 fair
36:25 what if someone else made it, not death battle I mean everyone has a way to make this but there always over shadowed by death battle to me death battle needs to end too it has ran it’s course and needs to fall
Great video mate. This video completely disproves DeathBattle. There are so many things they left out for both sides and both sides have evidence of Hyperversal levels, Eggman more so. I'll be happy to explain why
Please tell me you’re not serious 💀
@mynameisntimportant1374 I admit there is some leeway with it, but if uses facts about the verses to scale the cosmology and where characters stack to it
@@DJBurns-jq8mn yeah you’re trolling
@@mynameisntimportant1374 I'm not want me to explain my reasoning
@@DJBurns-jq8mn alright let’s see if I will lose braincells
King boo and kemeck are definitely big threats. King boo can just poses super neo metal, kameck can also just make giant bowsers out of any enemy. Also were did the brage that was going after metal sonic when he had the ruby shouldn't they still be opening fire upon him?
Also amy vs peach would be nice.
Edit: also luigi vs tails remach would definitely be more interesting.
I don't think King Boo would ever be able to catch Metal Sonic. Even trying to sneak up on him probably wouldn't work given his superior speed.
Also, I really don't like the idea of Amy vs Peach or Luigi vs Tails 2. The former is really boring and only has the "pink girl character" connection, and the latter only exists because Luigi fans are salty and want to see Luigi brutally murder an eight-year-old fox.
@tonysonic456 true he is fast however king boo can create clones and control a fake bowser and just outright grab him with his telekinesis.
@@tonysonic456an eight year old fox who is incredibly intelligent, plus they messed up saying that Luigi's max strength is barely being able to lift a giant turnip.
@@tonysonic456 also he can turn invisible like other boos
23:24
I would like to add in a few more mario worlds here
There's also the world of weapons from mario rpg (the home of smithy) and Vanda Culex home world
36:31 in a mario vs sonic 3 they could always go FULL COMPOSITE and i mean EVERYTHING. The sonic manga, mario-kun, all the cartoons both have, the nintendo power comics, archie, sonic the comic, that short lived french sonic comic, the Guinness book of world records book that stated sonic was the worlds fastest video game character, cdi games, minecraft, movies (i want to see something from the mario live action), ect. Think about how crazy this could get.
Just wanted to get this out of the way the storybook dimensions in sonic don't count as alternate timelines at all because these are just self-contained dimensions that exists within the storybooks themselves meaning that time dilation inside the storybook dimension is not going to be the same in the real world since time inside the storybook dimensions are isolated from the real world itself and they have their own rules about how they operate & Sonic has only been in two of them so far & yes the storybook games are Canon because the story books themselves exist within the Sonic universe itself because Sonic does have a library somewhere really does kept his books & you can't forget that classic Sonic is just past sonic and of course you've probably seen that tailstube video talking about that the timestream is not just one dimensions that they're in but he does also mention other infinite Multiverse with other versions of Sonic in it and he is referring to separate self-contained universe that has nothing to do with the original one while the timestream in the original universe is part of the same universe
One, I never said that the Storybook games were alternate timelines. I classified Black Knight as a separate universe, and the Arabian Nights as a multiverse. The timelines I mentioned were the main, Bad Future, and Shadow hundreds of alternate timelines.
Two, I actually went and found the clip of Tails saying that the multiverse is infinite, and what he's saying is a hypothetical. He phrases it as the multiverse having endless possibilities and is speaking what theoretically could be possible based on their experiences. Speculation and theorizing is not definitive proof that Sonic's multiverse is infinite.
@@tonysonic456yeah man because we have to wait until more Sonic games come out that will mention or talk about the Multiverse a lot more oh yeah I almost forgot one dimension to add it's the sol dimension because that's where blaze the cat live who is this universe is equivalent to Sonic and this is just one dimension that they explored outside of their own universe and we do agree that the Sonic and Mario rivalry really should stop and the thing about death battle is they don't always mention everything in every games that they talk about or even understand anything about context of how a character's feats or statements work but yeah eggman should be the one that won like he does have Mechs that can contend with Sonic on a daily basis oh yeah did you know that different types of infinity exists because you got countable Infinity and uncountable infinity it's possible that the chaos emeralds have near infinite power because they can still be drained on some occasions but still way more powerful than the dreamstone and you can already alter reality with these emeralds and even blaze 06 that you can transform your thoughts into power and one thing I mention Bowser conquering the universe does not make him universal because for one thing Bowser has to go to every part of the Universe in order to even conquer them and also the Mario games are not even focused on universal or multiversal stuff all the time because for majority of the time they are just focused on Earth way more then doing universal or multiversal stuff and I can't even say for sure how powerful they are also another thing about the lumas because don't forget whenever they die they can become power Stars launch stars or pull stars even the pink lumas can turn into other planets stars or galaxies whenever you feed them enough star bits
@@tonysonic456 Since how arabian nights is a mutiverse is only a book with limited pages like caliburn
thats a world a 1 universe and shadow alternatives paths was never sclassified as timelines even ian flynn said thats non canon paths,unlike bad future a true alternativer timeline
I just think bowser wins because of all the reality warping items he has also I believe when they said he was stronger than yoshi I think they only mean physically stronger which makes more sense
Also Eggman literally has a chance time move as well
Where there dreams are universes in the dream depot which make up the multiverse
In order to be multiversal at all you would have to scale to or above someone or something with infinite power
I do ask like some concepts with one being kinda real but outdated, and one literally just fanfic.
1. Is Super Neo Metal Sonic an actual super form, or an emulated one like how Super Mecha Sonic was? I was never really able to understand how much it could go agaisnt an actual Super Form so I hope this question can be answered.
2. (The fanfic one) If Bowser Jr were to also get into that wonder state but as Shadow Mario, would've he stood a better chance agaisnt Super Neo Metal Sonic? (Probably not but it would've given an excuse to see a Mario Faker vs a Sonic Faker)
1: In the IDW comics, Super Neo Metal emerges after Neo Metal Sonic absorbs a bunch of energy from the Master Emerald; so unlike Super Eggman, it's not an emulation. It's an actual Super form.
2: Honestly, I doubt it. Shadow Mario was more or less a disguise for Bowser Jr. that didn't seem to enhance any of Junior's physical stats; so, I don't think adding Wonder power to the mix would give him much of a boost.
1. Yes
2. Not sure
Dammit, another typo
Honestly Bowser wins just because infinite being on Eggman‘s team will somehow caused them to lose infinite is To much of a bum