Massad Ayoob - Fit vs Feel - Finding the best gun for your hands. - Critical Mas Ep 65
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- Massad Ayoob shares the difference between fit and feel. What feels great in the gun store, might not perform well in the field. He also offers a few tips along the way. Massad shares his personal journey of to find the right fit.
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Critical Mas(s) with Massad Ayoob is a show that provides expert analysis over a wide range of contemporaneous topics related to civilian and law enforcement self-defense, the use of force, and second amendment issues, provided by a renowned and established author with a career spanning decades in training law enforcement officers and the public at large, who is frequently called upon to provide expert witness testimony.
ABOUT MASSAD AYOOB:
Massad Ayoob has been handgun editor of GUNS magazine and law enforcement columnist for AMERICAN HANDGUNNER since the 1970s and has published thousands of articles in gun magazines, martial arts publications, and law enforcement journals. He is the author of some twenty books on firearms, self-defense, and related topics, including “In the Gravest Extreme” and “Deadly Force,” widely considered to be authoritative texts on the topic of the use of lethal force.
The winner of the Outstanding American Handgunner of the Year Award in 1998, Mas has won several state and regional handgun shooting championships. Ayoob was the first person to earn the title of Five Gun Master in the International Defensive Pistol Association. He is the current President of the Second Amendment Foundation. He served 19 years as chair of the Firearms Committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, and several years as a member of the Advisory Board of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association. In addition to teaching for those groups, he has also taught
for the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors and the International Homicide Investigators seminars.
Mas has received judicial recognition as an expert witness for the courts in weapons and shooting cases since 1979, and served as a fully sworn and empowered, part-time police officer for 43 years, mostly at supervisor rank. Ayoob founded the Lethal Force Institute in 1981 and served as its director until 2009, and now trains through Massad Ayoob Group. He has
appeared on CLE-TV delivering continuing legal education for attorneys, through the American Law Institute and American Bar Association, and has been retained to train attorneys to handle deadly force cases through the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Ayoob served for two
years as co-vice chair of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He also appeared in each episode of Personal Defense TV (Sportsman’s Channel).
#MassadAyoob #WilsonCombat #CriticalMas
Another lesson from the master teacher.. more please
For years, this man was pure to the point info and no nonsense.
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Retired Army (31yrs combat arms), I agree 100%. For soldiers, they have to adapt. For a civilian, you need to be comfortable.
Agreed sir, and thanks for your service ✊🏿
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Mr. Ayoob, I remember reading your articles as a teen back in the '80s. I'm glad to see you looking healthy and fit. Thank you for the many decades of fine content.
Ayoob is the Man...
He does look very fit for a legend of his age. I wonder how old he is.
@@gokuryu Hes 75.
That arthritis on his hand though.....😲☹
Dont catch him without a hat on a windy day 😅
The old commercial… When E.F. Hutton speaks people listen.
When Massad Ayoob speaks
shooters listen. Videos are always good, but in my opinion I think this is the best one to date.
Thank you Massad.
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2:20 "Leverage equals power. Power controls."
Love it.
Thanks Mas. Very true words. Feels good at the store, shooting is quite different. The first joint. Yes, for some people. I am one. I learned about this back about 1982. A friend who was a competitive shooter said let's go to the range. I had had some shooting issues, not doing what I thought I could. He suggested I try that first joint on the trigger finger. I have never changed since! It made a HUGE difference. I was in the Army and went through the change over to the M9. Wow. I could not get the weapon into the webbing of the hand right and get my index finger to get enough trigger. The rest of my service we had the M9, so I cheated, incorrectly, by rotating my hand towards the trigger guard in order to get that joint on the trigger. I qualified expert but have never fought a gun so hard in my life. I KNEW what I was doing was wrong but through brute force made the expert qual score. It was important on many levels. Senior people need to perform in all categories. I caught a lot of grief on the firing range but after the results, it died away. It was not like I did not know what I was doing either. I grew up shooting handguns, a lot. That is a great point you made. Feel vs Fit! Yes. The old 1911A1, still and always will have a sweet spot in my safe. The G19 now is my carry gun, with an XS Big Dot set of sights.
He truly is indeed a national treasure !!
Happy Birthday, Mas.
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right on both points
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@@osbert750 , no it's ok im good
This is the best practical explanation of fit and feel I have encountered. Excellent info.
Thanks for another great lesson, Massad.
Thanks, Mas.
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Happy Birthday 🎈🎂🎁
Sir
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🇺🇸
🇺🇲
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Thank you Mr Ayoob!
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Excellent Video!
When the grip sleeves for Glocks started to get to be the rage, they “felt” good, but were actually responsible for changing enough grip characteristics to affect accuracy, me included. I remember one of mine, normally a mid-high 90s shooter who showed up to qualify and his scores dropped twenty points. Only thing that changed was the grip sleeve. I asked why he had installed it. He said he thought it looked cool. Took it off and performance increased back to where he’d been. Same with all the backstrap options a lot of popular double stacks now come with. You can tailor your pistol to “feel” good but range performance is final. My current carry, a P365 is taking some adjustment. I’m going to stick with it because it’s size, capacity, versatility, as well as trigger and out of the box sights are what I want in a concealed carry gun. It’s surprisingly accurate, but after a season this past week, let me know that I can’t slack off regular training. And sometimes visiting a professional, even when you’re a professional yourself is the Rx.
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Thanks for another informative and to the point video. I have been shooting for over 70 years, since my Dad taught me to shoot on the farm in the early 50s. I have acquired a very nice collection of handguns over the years and am now in the process of deciding which to pass on to my grandkids and which to simply move on to others. The topic of your video is exactly what I have been dealing with over the past couple of years. Taking each gun to the range and really analyzing how the trigger reach matches up with my hands. Due to arthritis the strength of my trigger finger has diminished and I have moved to using the distal joint just as you described. Oh what a difference that has made in which guns work well for me. Not surprisingly my Beretta 92s, of which I own six variants, have jumped to the fore. My range time is thought out to maximize practice while reducing ammo consumption. The fact that my hands tire after 50-75 rounds is a big factor. Yesterday I was able to place all the rounds in the magazine (15) of my Beretta LTT Compact into a 2 1/2 inch group in both of my last two rounds. (The first round showed my typical warmup with about three flyers to broad the group to 5 inches.). For an 80+ year old with shaky hands I felt pretty good about the day. That exemplified to me exactly what you said in this video. I have other guns I love, Sigs, Brownings, CZs etc. but the 92 just works great for me. Thanks again for a spot-on video.
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Massad Ayoob is a national treasure. I own a Luger, 1911's and a Beretta 92FS I find them fitting my hand best in that order and trigger control best in that order. I have a Ruger GP100. Since I put a Houge monopod grip on it I find it is the best fit for both my weak and strong hand.
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Makes 100% sense. With that said, we all should not be purchasing a firearm from Cabela’s, since they lock the trigger and you can’t size the pistol for fit.
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great advice.
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What GREAT advice! Just because your favorite “GunTuber” uses X gun, doesn’t mean it’s the best gun for you!
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Thank you
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I paid class fees to get this information from captain Ayoob in person years ago....worth every penny!
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@@osbert750 I thought these scams were over.
As always words of wisdom
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I've watched quite a few of Mas Ayoob's videos and this is the most practical, useful one I've watched. The points about fit, and trigger finger fit to the trigger shoe, are excellent. Some handgun triggers work well when pressed with the pad, some work better when using that "power crease." And some handguns won't let your hand and trigger finger wrap in the optimal way. Same can sometimes apply to rifle triggers, depending on the shape of the trigger shoe and type of shot intended.
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So true
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The Best!!!
Mark Smith from The Four Boxes Diner gave a big shout out to Mr. Ayoob.
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I have a P95 that I have loved for years. Reliably shot everything I put through it including Winchester white box.
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well done. Form thought and feeling !
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I am a power crease shooter myself. I know what you mean, I like the M&P semi auto hinged trigger because of this but also I like the feel of the pistol. Felt so good in it's stock configuration, but I wasn't that good with it. I put on the Large size backstrap insert which felt awful in my hand like a brick, but on the range I shoot it so good now.
yeah power crease on wheel guns and 1911's, but my Glock and Canik I like pad pull only because of the lighter trigger pull!
@@cigarsgunsanddiesel8032
Your Glock has a lighter trigger pull than your 1911’s?
Most production 1911’s are 3.5 to 5.0 pounds.
Massad is the absolute best.
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So much wisdom, thank you
I’m a small guy that grew up shooting double action revolvers. I had all my 1911’s long triggers swapped out for short triggers. Glocks fit me perfectly although I prefer the SAO trigger on my Sig Legion. All my revolvers have the Miculek grips that make all size S&W frames the same. What a brilliant idea. Nothing fits better than my Combat Commander.
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The. Man. Yoda. Gun Master. Teacher. God Bless Massad.
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Great video, great information. Thanks.
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I was a member/leader/trainer of military police SWAT teams. There is more to "fit" than your hand. What feels/fits me best these days is the S&W M&P 9 Shield EZ M2.0. Really. May not be the pistola du jour of SEALs and SWAT these days, but I know what works for me and how to work it. The Equalizer is the optics-ready high-capacity version. I don't need/want either of those upgrades.
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I have read Massod Ayoob since 1974
Nice job with the explanation. Thank you.
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Just wanted to give you an update on the video where you talked about chambered round, in handguns and ar-15.
I'm now number 32 of friends and family members on the reason you SHOULD NOT keep a round in the chamber of the AR-15. I felt it important to not only speak about this every chance I get. Back on the 4th of July/Family reunion with the mag and no round in the chamber. I showed everyone there as I Racked the empty weapon and dropped, (my AR-15), and then let them drop from around 4" off the lush grass outside or carpeting when indoors. What they found out, was the gun only has to be jarred a little to fire. "CLICK", it does not take much of a Jarring to fire a round off. The act of seeing and doing burns this into everyone's mind who heard the "Click", vs just telling them. Again Thank You for all your videos. You all have a great week. Bob Jackson Papillion, Ne.
It’s not the trigger that clicks. It’s the locked bolt moving forward.
Watch the video again.
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Always great content, thanks
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As usual and expected, Massad is spot on. This man is truely the expert amoung experts in his field. If I ever found myself in a court legal battle, he would be my first choice for my defense, along with Clint Smith.
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My 2 favorite pistols are the Sig 229 and the Beretta 92. I find the feel and reliability of both to be equal. I use the 92 for 9mm and the 229 for 40S&W and 357sig. Great topic as usal 👍👍
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Hi! Massad: Interesting subject. I agree, fit and feel is an individual thing. To me it is up to the individual to adapt his firearms to him/herself. My first pistol was a Ruger Blackhawk. I truly hated the factory thin grip panels. I made my own. The first ones lacked some wood-metal fit. But I eventually made a truly thick pair out of walnut with good wood-metal fit. Finger grooves, and they filled my hand. And the power of the .357 mag was controlled. But looking back now, I could easily redo them into a fully acceptable better fitting pair, just by removing some wood here and there.
I adapted what I learned to later Ruger Single-sixes.
But I also eventually got into Smith & Wessons. There I took the factory target grips, and filed off the checkering, and changed the shape some, even adding finger grooves on the left panel. I started out on a M48. I think modified factory target grips, done my way, should be standard on Smith & Wessons.
Then I got a stainless M29 (629? I forget the number). I did the same thing there with the factory target grips and finger grooves.
Then back to a Ruger Security Six. I had no factory grips to fit my needs. I started out with two blocks of wood, and inlet the grip frame into the wood. I shaped the wood by feel. I ended up with a pair of grips a lot like what i did for the Smith & Wessons, including finger grooves.
When I go out to do some shooting I truly find it hard to choose between the Smith & Wesson (629?) or a Ruger Security Six. Both fit and feel perfect, and are a real pleasure to shoot.
You mentioned long arms, and I was going to skip over that. But then I remembered I have a Remington 600 .308. The factory forearm was boxy and uncomfortable. I took a file to the checkering and boxed shape. I made it a very simple rounded forearm. Much more comfortable to carry and shoot.
I can't imagine how anyone who doesn't know how to work with their hands could find satisfaction, other than by trial and error. Which is what relying on someone else's fit and feel is.
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Exceptional,well-thought of presentation, delivered in clever and concise manner. Thank you, Critical Mas!
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Howdy , for the rhythm
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@@osbert750 Nope , don’t trust these . An I just read about bill in this month’s issue of Americas 1st freedom . Pioneer ! O Pioneer !
Hey there Massad, great video sir! Good info and very educational. Concerning the trigger pull on pistols, I know for my own self that I prefer using the pad of my trigger finger when I am shooting vs. going all the way to the joint. I found that if I go to the joint then I tend to push my pistol to the side some. When I use just the pad of my finger then I find that I tend to pull the trigger straighter and my groupings are tighter too. Keep up the fine videos sir. And BTW, my edc is a 1911 Commander model that I absolutely love! It shoots plenty straight
Now the pad itself is still big. I currently prefer the area in the last third before the joint where there is less meat and a flat bone bit is pushes through.
Thank you for the education.
A few years ago, I went to a DA/SA CZ75 P01 as I really loved the way that pistol feels in my hands. Before that, I was a 1911 guy, then an XD45. Both felt good in my hand and I was able to use the pad of my finger easily as the SA trigger pull made it easy.
With the DA/SA, I had some problems with that first shot being accurate because it was about double the pull weight of the followup SA shots. I just wasn't sure the pistol was right for me, if I couldn't get more accuracy. It was during dry fire practice that I tried the distal joint and had the "Hallelujah" revelation. Since then, after more practice, the first shot from DA is now as accurate as the SA follow ups. It wasn't easy undoing years of muscle memory where that pad naturally came to rest on the trigger, though.
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Glad to have a pistol with adjustable back straps. Until I switched over to the large, one consistent problem I had was tightening fingers. After enlarging the grip I got a lot more consistent and shot groups were tighter.
As far as the butt stock on a rifle goes, couldn't agree more. We Zeroed slick at my Basic Officers Leader's Course, but definitely had to collapse the stock wearing the IOTV. SGLs yelled at us for it, but it worked better 🤷
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For years compound bows sold with grips that felt great in the store, they were heavily contoured. Problem is that they create a lot of torque which destroys accuracy. It took decades for people to get with it, and for the companies to fit their bows with the correct grip. Up until they did, the most comfortable bow grips sold the most bows.
God bless you guys 👍🇺🇸
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Definitely the joint, [not pad] much steadier & smoother.
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Thank you Mr Ayoob.
IMO, a secondary consideration with a handgun, which is related to fit and feel, is whether when you have the pistol gripped in your hand it points naturally where you want it to point.
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Content is always great. Suggestion: consider wearing contrasting shirts to the weapons discussed. Dark color or black shirts when holding back handguns reduces clarity of message. Regards, Phil
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Excellent
Thanks for that!
WOW how "time" fly's - a century of the 1911 living! But, then again - I'm way past the halfway mark.
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I have a S&W model 29 round butt. In my fairly large hands the grips are far too small but shooting it the grips are great, better under recoil than the square butt style grips.
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Always a pleasure getting information for Ayoob. My favorite pistol the last 2 years was the Taurus. I now have 3 G2C and 1 G3C, a single stack Slim/PT709. The thing I like the best is the striker fire that allows multiple pulls and hits on the cartridge. This only helps because during the "primer shortage" in 2020-22, the only thing I could find were rifle primers. You can only imagine: Pull the trigger - no boom! Pull again - Nope! Then the next pull BANG. Great learning experience and trigger control for those that get the pre-fire nerves. This is about learning to always have a stead hand, even if the weapon does not fire. Just thought this would help.
Do you own any other handguns besides Taurus? They do the job for what they are made to do but I can think of many other handguns much better in many other ways than a G2C.
Had to qualify for a license- took out all six of my pistols to the range to see which I would score best with. To my surprise it was my full size steel frame .45 Beretta. Didn’t see that coming.
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I found the Beretta 96 grips the best for me. I have extremely large palms and moderately large fingers. The larger fatter grip felt like a perfect match. It allowed the lateral position of the barrel to line up with my arm.
Then I noticed I couldn't operate the magazine release with my trigger hand. Perfect fit didn't allow for perfect function.
thank you so much
My first pistol was a CZ P-10c and I still carry it. I think the ergos and texturing on that thing are perfect. It’s easy to get a high grip and the back strap really bites into your hand and has great traction. A lot of people complain it’s too aggressive but I love it
I found the grip too aggressive but I took some sandpaper to it
@@pearlrocket1000 that new springfield echelon looks neat. Could always get one of those
@pearlrocket1000 I think the only issue I've seen people report is a magazine issue but yeah best to wait and see
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Thanks Mass!
I could listen to this guy explain how to make poptarts. Thank you for the video.
Great info, thanks
Excelent video!! I have small hands (no really small for a guy). Double action semis just don't fit me at all. I hate the M92 - brick with a trigger!! After this video I can put words to what I've been thinking for years. Thanks!! Keep em coming!
Thank you very much for this extremely interesting video, as always.
It may be interesting to develop a small set of standard exercices that may help shooters to evaluate how a given gun fit them in a more structure way.
- for shooting, this test must include strings of fires done with the strong hand, with both hands and with the weak hand only
- It must also includes elements like a "chamber check", loading, unloading the the reaction to the usual troubles (failure to feed, double feed, and so on)
- It must be also done in adverse conditions, for example at night, under a heavy rain, when it is freezing and when it is very hot, not only in an indoors range.
- For example, it may be quite refreshing to do discover that you have trouble handling safely your favorite firearm under heavy rain. And this gives food for thought
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In the 60s, I bought any magazine that had your name in it.
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@@osbert750 Hello. I am sorry. I never respond to messages on RUclips because I have in the past found it was a scam. I appreciate your attention. But I cannot respond. Thank you.
Thank you SIR! May I have another 😉 you know everything there is to know about all AWESOME stuff. You are a genius above all others. Thank you Mr. Ayoob
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Beretta and baby eagle felt like a glove for me.
There's places where you can rent handguns and shoot them at the indoor range. That will help you find the best pistol for your personal needs and wants.
The main issue I've found with that though is that many of them don't allow "rapid" fire. When buying a new handgun, I'd really prefer to see how it works shooting reactively as well as predictively, and both of those paces are faster than 1-3 second splits by far.
30 years ago I had to decipher this information from his books alone..Where was RUclips when I needed it.🤣🤣
Very timely video. When I went to pick up my EDCX9 couple weeks ago, waiting on my NICS,
The pistol felt like it was designed for my hand, as mentioned in the video. When I took it to the range, a few days later, I felt my left thumb was too far up on the slide - uncomfortably so and the trigger too short. My next go round at the range was a little better, but still was not comfortable in my hand like my PDP and XC.
I ordered the large backstrap replacing the small one that came with the gun and I’m hoping that’ll along with possibly using tje trigger crease instead of the finger pad, will make it a more comfortable gun as I was fully expecting.
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@@osbert750
Huh? Sorry for the delay in responding. So, what is it?
This is so important. 1911’s are perfect for me, can’t miss. With a Glock 19 I have to use the largest backstrap and it feels like shit, but the trigger breaks perfect. My Glock 43x was a mistake to buy. Cannot get it right. Had the grip altered and it’s much better but still not right.
I was the same with the Berretta M9. Felt not so good but I could shoot it very well. Of course competing with it in the Marines helped. The sheer number of rounds. But nothing has ever matched the 1911. I was so glad the when I joined the Marine Sniper Platoon that we were hold out with the 1911.
The WC365 grip module fits me like a glove.
The best test I have found for fit is to close my eyes, pick up the gun, point it, and then open my eyes and see if it's pointing where I felt that it was. For me, this has translated well to performance on the range. Maybe it's just me, not touting myself as an expert, but give it a try and see what you think.
Nail on the head. 💯. I watch and hear about to MANY men and women buying a firearm because it ' looks cool '. Im ALL for that. But! When it comes to a EDC pistol. That person REALLY needs to base that pistol or pistols they like to have for home defense and EDC. If your local gun shop/range offers rental pistol and has the one you are thinking about purchasing. Rent it and go fire it. Then choose.
Excellent informative video, a must watch for those wanting to buy a firearm.
1 tip to make videos easier to interpret, use a firearm that is not the same color as your shirt so there is more discernment between foreground objects and background.
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Pachmyer vs. Hogue on a Python -- I found the same thing.
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Very well said!
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And confidence. If you have confidence in the pistol and your ability with it you will shoot better. Just my thoughts. Thanks for another great video.
It’s funny Mr. Ayoob said that about the Ruger P90. I alway thought they are the most ergonomically jacked up pistol’s around.
Love my WC365 grip time will tell if it will help with accarcy but so far it carries better feels better in the hand and more recoil control helps out
Yesterday, I had trouble with my trigger reach in that it was too short, on my Ruger Security 9-compact. The result was I accidentally pulled to the left of the target. I had to do weird things with the index finger, which requires too much compensation. I tried a bigger gun, my brother-in-law's P320, with better results.
Thanks for your video !
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I have never liked how Glocks feel, but boy can I shoot them well. This video makes sense to me.
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Thank you Mas & WC for listening to comment suggestions! Just what I asked for.
The only thing I'd change about this video is an additional cam from above or a handheld to show details from your point of view.
@Wilson Combat
Since trigger reach is an important fit aspect and you make 1911s style handguns at Wilson Combat that easily allow different trigger distances, why not make a video just showing the ones you sell (short/mid/long pad and straight variants...(yes I was on your website)) and talk about how they changed, the trends of the time, shape, checkering/finish over years of use, width, corner shape, play between trigger & frame, what kind you prefer on different size handguns. Since you're big revolver fans, was there ever a try to make a very narrow trigger contact point to have it just in the joint? Maybe you can explore this further and also talk about steps on how to adjust a trigger, trigger stop, pre travel. Ever tried a rotating trigger like on some custom ARs? (the ones that rotate if not pushed straight back).
My issue with Berettas (which I shoot quite well) is that the trigger releases too far back and I'm on my second joint and touching my left hand. I've heard about setting the trigger back when the reach is too far in DA but not vice versa.
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Awesome!
Years ago, I had a Colt Det Spcl snubbie that would shoot almost exactly where I would "point" my gun hand. Just a little high, but straight down the middle. No effort at all. It just "fit" correctly. Wish I still had that gun.
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I don’t agree with a lot of what is said on this channel, but I can’t agree more with shooting the gun first before buying and not letting “feel” overtake the person and looking at “fit vs feel” using massad’s words
What’s said that you don’t agree with? Just curious.
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#MassaAyoob I'm sitting here listening as an old gunner and thinking an annual viewer appreciation BBQ would be pretty cool! #MeetandGreet kinda thing?
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Definitely why Glock back straps are valuable for the shooter as they get rounds of experience.
One element of fit that you did not talk about is the overall size of the pistol. I had to give up on my SIG P-238 because I simply could not hang on to it. The handle is very short. In the same caliber, my Walter PPK/S has more handle and I can shoot it well. The size of my hands pretty much dictate a minimum size of pistol to shoot well.
I wanted a Hellcat. But the P365 simply fit my hand better. The way the trigger guard didn't rubbed my middle finger as much, and my ability to wrap my fingers farther around it gave me better grip, despite there being less gun to actually grab. I also liked the lighter stippling, because I have soft girly hands, and rough grips get uncomfortable when I'm death gripping the gun like the newb I am. That last part might be more my fault than the gun.
One would think with the polymer chasi system that a company could make a grip just for your hand so it's perfect. I'd pay extra for that.
A video about Mass’s duty weapons over the years would be cool.