As an owner of both a 2ZZ and K20 MR-S... Bite the bullet and get a wing, 9 Lives Racing is insane bang for buck. I was wrestling with the same Torsen issues and had to modulate the throttle a lot on exits not to light up the inside tire... And now those issues are gone on both cars, even in tight low speed corners. Bury the throttle before the apex and forget it, the rear is planted. It almost feels like cheating on this chassis - I dropped 3 full seconds on a 90 second track. After tires, a wing is the best bang for buck mod on this platform, no doubt about it any more. IIRC the rules didn't punish aero that much, but the way you can drive with confidence is worth it. Bonus trivia: contrary to popular belief, a wing on a low power car doesn't necessarily mean lower top speeds on track. Due to faster cornering speeds, earlier throttle and thus way faster exits, I am 5-7 kph faster with a wing at EVERY SINGLE braking point on the tracks in my country. The drag-to-speed tradeoff happens way later with a good wing than the speeds you reach on most tracks.
Love how Coby checks the brakes every now and then to see if they're still biting or there's some fading going on while going on the straights when he's soon to go for a hard braking Edit: Thanks to you guys, i learned that it's to get rid of Brake knockback, which means pushing the brake pads closer to the rotors so the response is more instant when needing to use the brakes, still fun to see it happening out of sheer force of habit
@@dearlove88 could be that as well, i'm no pro either, but what's true is that Coby's doing something with the brakes before using them mid race, that's for sure
so hes not checking the breaks, in driving the car the breaks push the pads away and by him tapping the breaks it brings it right back so when he goes to use them it right there with no delay
Almost none of the comments were highlighted to shame the commenter. A lot of viewers are younger or just not involved in mechanical aspects of cars enough to know what's realistic. But some of the comments are goofy.
Why run a Haltech ECU, and not use the wideband closed loop feature with long term fuel trims? Any shifts in fueling are corrected for immediately by the PID control so the motor has correct fueling. Consistent fueling 101 for a Track Car!
Yup, tune the car in open loop, then turn on closed loop 100% of the time, same why I did mine on Hondata. Either way you have to trust the O2 sensor, so it's almost a no brainer nowadays.
That and running a MAF on a racecar then wondering why the fuelling is all over the place... Fuck the MAF off, tune it speed density, enable closed loop, sorted.
@@JamesBalazs What's the problem with running a MAF to meter in air? Assuming the MAF is placed in a laminar flow environment I don't really understand why it would be worse?
@@asian4747 they're inaccurate at higher flow rates (although maybe higher than the MRS will ever see). Great for low flow at idle / cruise to help get the AFR right for emissions / economy, but not great for accurately, consistently making top end power. Need a separate IAT sensor for baro/temp correction, thus temperature changes you haven't tuned for will cause you to make less power. Intake leaks will affect fuelling moreso than when running MAP based fuelling since you have unmetered air. MAF can be contaminated by oiled filters and gives incorrect readings as a result. If the intake is modified near the MAF, since the factory MAF calibration is the voltage vs kg/hr of the MAF "with the factory intake tract" specifically, so it's not going to be accurate and you have to work around that *everywhere else* in the tune. People will argue this isn't the case or doesn't matter, but I've owned cars that run like shit with an induction kit fitted and no tune, since the MAF calibration is no longer accurate - not something you want to cause you headaches on a race car. OEMs used them when widebands were 5x more expensive and less common decades ago, and the narrowband O2 sensor can only read cruise / idle AFRs around 14:1 for emissions purposes. Nowadays, especially if you already have a wideband and a standalone, I can't fathom why you wouldn't use what is universally accepted as a better fuelling model (MAP based VE vs MAF) other than a rush to get the car ready without removing the MAF and fitting a MAP sensor.
I have a 2ZZ/C65/LSD Spyder that I race here in Australia so I am definitely behind you holding on to the car! What is interesting though is how you choose to NOT run a rear wing. When I took my aero off the car had such poor balance I went straight back in to the pit to put it back on (although a greater straight line advantage without it). I believe once you get your power/weight balance correct and you sort out your stability issues, you will absolutely fly. Keep it up guys! 😎
same observation here too.. With the wing, the car can be mechanically loose at low speed (already is), and more safe / understeery in the high speed sections? Ben Lin, got a big (wing) reveal soon? :D :D
Absolutely love the quotes on the livery. And also the dedication to making this build work. So much respect to you Ben for not listening to all the hate and doing a k swap or whatever everyone’s suggesting. You’ll get it there, I have faith in you buddy. Keep up the good work 🤙🏻
And this is exactly why he's failing k series better engine easy 50hp more better transmission, diff ect if he's trying to be competitive u can already see this car has reached its limit and its still at the back if he wants to be competitive unfortunately its gotta go and might aswell of done it in the first place this ben never wants to go k series tho and that'll be the downfall this time
@@devonboss3733 Or stick with what the lotus used: a supercharged 2ZZ . But, most of us are just keyboard warriors (I am) and I couldn't even dream of what Ben has already accomplished.
Huge fan of the MR2 and Marc's work. I hope you don't have to give up on the car to stay competitive, but ultimately I get that losing because your tool isn't fit for the job sucks. Good luck finding why the car lost so much power and hope you can make the car competitive.
I have no doubt you'll get everything sorted with this car and turn it into a pretty competitive car in gltc. After seeing what you were able to do with the evo and all the development not only with the car itself but as a driver as well, I have no doubt you will start climbing the ladder. Keep it up Ben!
Don’t give up on this build Ben, I love it! I’ve been fighting issues on my own 2ZZ swap and surprisingly, some of the issues have been related to air trapped in the cooling system. I’m looking forward to future episodes!
@@omarawilson2853 I followed a guide that had been posted to Spyderchat. I'm honestly not sure how closely it matches the official Toyota procedure. One minor quirk is that I have an aftermarket radiator and the bleeder design is a bit different than stock. I think I have it sorted at the moment, but there are still some intermittent idle issues. Thank you for replying.
@@The_Stick odd. I have a Celica and the Bleeding procedure is quite straightforward, I too have an aftermarket radiator. These engine are pretty easy to bleed. I wonder what could be the hang up with urs
Are you bleeding it 1st before turning over the engine and making sure the cap is off? The moment you get one mistake you can end up doing the bleed procedure 2-3x or more to get it right again
I think this has been mentioned but, since you've got to throw a bunch of weight at it anyway, I would definitely say that stiffening the chassis as much as you possibly can is the way to go, as opposed to dead ballast just siting there
How exactly would you do that? Call me out of touch but on my 90s ecu I can only change the fuel map, ignition map, rpm at idle and compensation for the fuel map when cold😂
Disclaimer: i dont claim to be a driving expert just owned supercharged AW11 and tracked it: I re watched a few of your track videos. With midships: left foot braking and how you use it is key. I see you using it to safely scrub speed but you need to lean more into it. trust it and you to control the cars rotation and balance. If the car balance gets upset or disturbed mid apex (ok, when it happens..) keep on power *while* left foot braking. LFB is a hard concept to master but if you can trust it and your self : you will learn to love the midship shinangans. If your brain has trouble processing LFB and rev match simultantiously : prioritize LFB. Your dedication to that car makes me miss my aw11. You got this
the comments really resembles how the car community looks today, most of it anyway.... "oh something is broken, i cant be bothered to replace it so ill just buy a new car"
Dig the fact that the livery keeps the red/white color scheme, and glad you're sticking to the MR-S as-is. It would be easy to just chase power, but you've decided that this is your tool of choice, and you're just going to hone it the best you can, and I respect that.
Instead of adding ballast for weight penalty, consider taking the weight as lsd and much more rear wheel and tire. Put the tire where the weight is. Mid engine driving and setup is completely different than ff or fr cars. More rear wheel and tire is the same as adding wing if the tires are sticky and on temp. It will allow power to be applied sooner mid corner and brake later but without the penalties associated with a wing. Also the McPherson strut love camber lots of camber because it looses camber as the suspension compresses. Take temps across the tire and dial in camber to even the temps. And for goodness sakes get and alignemnt with .1 or .2 degree toe IN rear.
You can’t give up on this project - getting this to work will involve learning so much more than copying a predictable platform could ever reach you. Really cool to see a pro trouble-shoot and give feedback too. Awesome build series 👍🏻
Racing is so challenging by itself. Disappointment is a part of it, but SO much harder when sharing on social media. Interesting how EVERYONE seems to know what you should do. Keep perservering and race what you want! Hoping you solve the power problem because man, that is frustrating.
Most theories end up with Ben almost dying. Glad you decided to diagnose the engine problems. We could all use more help learning how to solve problems. These videos are awesome. Keep 'em coming!
Have you considered on rear sway bar on why the rear is lifting? My friend with an mr2 has same issue and he’s suspecting it to be the sway bar lifting the tire rather than the diff being the problem.
That’s the issue though, whether it’s lifting the tire or not the open diff is still going to cause problems with stability and traction. Especially when exiting any camber on turns, which will lift a tire and burn that one. An LSD or even just welding the diff would guarantee that the wheels are both getting basically full power split in half to each. Then even if a wheel is lifted the other one contacting the ground can keep putting forward momentum in without losing traction nearly as easily. There is a reason that diffs are usually something that is done very early or even many cars that already have a pretty decent oem lsd. Civic Si’s have LSD’s, as do the Type R’s, Exige/Elise’s have LSD’s on most models, the Evora as well, hell it’s even on many trucks that have a tendency to lift wheels when off roading. LSD’s are one of the most useful and often overlooked mechanical parts that are huge for helping squeeze every last bit of speed out of the corners and transitions.
BTW removing the sway bar would most likely solve that problem but then you just end up losing a lot more of the straight line stability. The best of both worlds is an adjustable softer sway bar that you can fine tune. Then you won’t lift wheels nearly as easy and will keep a lot of the stability benefits on uneven straights that have a lot of bumps that hit one side of the cars tires and not necessarily the other sides tires. That’s where sway bars excel at keeping the car stable without adding any spring rate the to springs holding the car up.
I don't think the tire is lifted at all, seems to be just the phrase he uses. It's smoking a lot which means it's on tarmac. It's simply the matter of the infamous one tire fire because he doesn't have the LSD to brake that wheel and send the power to the outside wheel.
@@roochiecoochThe only LSD available is a helical, which will act the same as an open diff if a tire is lifted. Welding is not a viable solution, it's not a shitty drift rat
There’s many ways to win… one way is to look at what’s working for others and try to do it better. That’d be called “following the meta”. Another way to win is to attempt to take a different approach and try to perfect it… ie, “going against the meta”. This second way requires thought, trial and error, time and effort! Sometimes it doesn’t pan out… but when it does! Wow, that’s a magnificent achievement! The sense of accomplishment is monumental! Hang in there Ben! Stick with it! Both Miata and Lotus have made it work with low weight/terrific handling… the MR2 is a solid platform. You can do it!
Rooting for you, video shows how much effort it takes just to try to even get a car competitive way after it has initially been sorted. The platform i think has proven itself but seems like every new person taking it on runs into similar issues. There may be two camps for this but the big thing as a fan of that car that always stood with me is how successful many drivers i knew became once they worked on suspension from the idea its basically same as a FR with weight in the back, rather then a FWD in reverse, easiest way i can describe it. Whatever you find works thanks for documenting the journey! 👍
Not every car needs a damn K-swap. You people need to think outside the box once in a while. The current engine choice is already an interesting one, I like the way this project's going.
I admire your resolve. Remember the track meet where the mrs set the best time despite the rain. That's only a small dose of its capability. Keep up the good work, and obviously, I'll stay tuned.
One of my favorite race season inspired episodes, and seasons, for that matter. Watching all these people working together to try and build this raw combination up essentially from scratch is like watching the best kind of documentary
Great to see some development progress! Having a pro driver help out and show what's possible is a great move. As a pro myself and with a lot of MR2 experience in autox, I'd suggest a larger front sway bar if you are running the stock one. It's so easy to install (be sure to get the reinforcement blocks!) and will help a lot to minimize or even eliminate inside wheelspin (depending on a few factors). It'll also give you better front grip (yes it's counter-intuitive on MR2s but it has to do with the front strut geometry) *and* more all around stability in the car. They can be a real joy to drive! The stock front bar is just not enough, unless you go crazy on front spring rates and damping. The larger front bar is a great interim fix before adding LSD, and you might possibly still want the stiffer bar on even after adding LSD. I suspect the car will still be tricky to drive if you add LSD to it the way it sits now. Lastly, if you're not running at least -3 degrees front camber, try it. It will help tremendously on front grip, but I'd recommend only doing that after adding the front bar, because the car is loose enough already. Actually lastly lastly, it sounds like the rear tires are locking under hard braking. Not sure if this is an ABS issue or a bias issue from here. I know it seems like the car is miles off the pace but there is a lot of development and optimization on the table at this point, and you're forging your own path, so there is definitely more to come if you stick with it! Good luck and happy to help if I can!
@@nehok I say it because I watch a boy called @dannydc2 and he used to race one of them and he had issues with his air intake but hadn't changed the rear wings for wider ones but the air intake is behind Ben and the standard airbox does better than a cone filter type of thing. He did the standard mr2 engine but same shit. They vents are much smaller than the standard ones. The outside looks about the same but it cones in where the standard ones were wider opening but the same outer size. I think, had a smoke you see sir haha
You are at the most rewarding part of racing right now, the dial in. Every little change you feel so much faster, its euphoric when it goes well and crushing when it goes wrong.
Rear wing and lsd would improve these problems at least a bit I think. Though a rear wing would cut down on top speed which I can imagine is vital in wheel to wheel.
Thank you for sticking with the MR2. Giving up and switching engine or chassis would've been easier, but also boring. Hunting down the gremlins with the MR2 is way more entertaining
Since the day I got a LSD in my daihatsu Mira while circuit racing, I'll never ever want to track a car without LSD. I hope you'll be able to maximize on handling and not focus on the power just yet.
My favorite build on your channel. I hope you don't give up on it. There is obviously something wrong if you are down 30 hp. Solve that problem and then see where you stand competitively.
I really love the fact you took the best MR2 (and sports car Toyota ever made in terms of weight) and just went with it. My 01' GT-S Celica is amazing, but after seeing in person what a Lotus Elise looks like...I can see what is possible with the same engine in a completely re-engineered form.
I love the livery. Especially the incorporation of phrases and credits to those who helped you develop the car 😊 Well done. I hope you find the cause of the car being down on power and seat time, seat time, seat time!
I rejected 'heel and toeing' a long time ago in favor of 'toe and heeling' as I fingered braking control and confidence and was more important than blipping. Good to see I'm not alone.
If you can't get a diff in time, just weld that thing. I have a welded diff in my Beetle that probably handles similarly (certainly is also miles off pace). But when I went from open to welded it picked up time. If the car is weight transferring enough to get that slip on corner exit, then if you drive it right it won't be a huge detriment. It's very bad in rain, it'll make the car push, but in the dry it works well enough to be faster. Especially on the larger corners you have on road courses, my experience is in autocross. So your smallest corners are probably some of my biggest.
Or you can go nuts like I may do soon and search Quaifes website for diffs with the same ring gear ID and see if you can machine a diff from something else to fit. For example I've found Subaru front diffs and S2k diffs have the same ring gear ID as my beetle and cost about a 3rd of what the quaife does. With some relatively simple machining I may be able to adapt one.
@@Levibetz hey, just out of curiosity, what Subaru front diff could fit in a beetle? And does a welded diff help the death experience of going though a high speed corner? I don't want to make mine a race car, but a car I can use on the road and track days, so I don't like the idea of having a welded diff. If a Subaru front differential could fit,that would be excellent.
@@johnybenx3165 Well to be clear I haven't done it, I've only lined em up next to eachother and confirmed the same ring gear ID. Only the 6mt STI transmission has the LSD front. Again, it'd be a custom machining project, and not at all a drop in. S2k is also a candidate, but again this is just off comparing drawings. Welded diff can be a bit hairy, the car will not want to turn in, and then once that inside tire starts slipping may suddenly rotate more. I definitely wouldn't recommend it, but for an experienced driver it is faster around a track I suspect. The ultimate is the Quaife for a beetle, it is just a drop in replacement and should be fantastic. To be clear this is all for IRS transmission. The swing axle is it's own beast.
Can't wait to see the end of season engine tear down update. The universe is just handing you free content :P Jokes aside it's so cool to see the spyder go from basically a stock car to a fully liveried track machine.
Ben, was this one of the cars that got damaged in the garage flood? Possible fuel system contamination or maybe a clogged (or more likely stuck if it’s running rich )injector? The fact that it didn’t want to make a pull with the exhaust off is also slightly telling I think along with Marcs comment on it shouldn’t matter with the maf sensor. Maybe bult a quick test pipe to eliminate the muffler and bends and try having your guy do a speed density test tune to eliminate those two possibilities. It kind of seems like your MAF sensor isn’t giving you terribly good readings
no , this car was not domaged in flood . His evo 9 previous track car was flooded and he had mr2 ... most probably that is why he is driving it , if evo wasn't flooded he most probably wouldn't try this hard to make something of this MR2
At the end of the day the car is exactly what it was intended for, a great wheel time car!!! I think you're trying to take an undeveloped car and be competitive with guys who have been developing their cars for years. Keep that in mind and keep grinding, all it can do is get better and develop you as a driver.
Curious about the clutch master, some say EM1, some say S2K, I put a Ktuned one on my 8th gen Si when I had it and regretted it. I suggest Honda OEM here, I think you have to get a "U" adapter to make it fit in that tight space but it seems like would be worth it 👌
Hello Ben! It’s very joyful and interesting to follow the development of your MR2. I wish you not to give up and bring it to that condition when the Hondas are left behind! I built an identical MR-S ZZW30 with a 3S-GTE engine for Time-Attack and race it against Evo and BMW M2. This is difficult considering that I only have 260-280 hp. versus 500-600 hp they have. I'm still struggling with the oversteer of this chassis, but the guys at Togue Time chanel have helped me a lot here. Their Techno Pro Spirit workshop video and conversation with Asano-san is the bible on MR-S chassis tuning. Be sure to watch it if you are not familiar with this video. everything will definitely work out, don’t give up on this project please! Best regards, Alexey Filippov
The mr2 is definitely fighting outside it’s weightclass but I think when’s it’s dialed.. and you figure out the horsepower issue.. and learn how to drive it… it will definitely be competitive
I love that you stuck with the MR2 as is and just worked out some suspension work with a pro. The saying in photography the best camera is the one you have on you, i guess can go with cars, the best car you have the one you already on the track. Not sure you thought of this, but have you checked to see if the ecu is the culprit if the tuner was thinking the file was reverting back? I cant remember if you have a standalone ecu on this or just a modified toyota/mr2 ecu, maybe swapping or go standalone?
It's cool to hear that the ExtremeContact Sport 02 is the go-to rain tire for GLTC. I have those on my NC Miata and did some touge driving in the damp last night, and they were absolutely unshakable. I didn't really even believe the road was damp until we switched to my buddy's Mustang and had a few near Iketani neck-brace moments.
@3:05 Get rid of those Iridium/Platinum tip plugs. Copper is THE BEST CONDUCTOR on a plug. The ONLY advantage of Iridium/Platinum plugs is longevity (so you can run them basically 100k miles in your street car).
Heya!!! I *may* have useful info, sorry im ao late to this vid! I have a scion tc, 1st gen (2AZ-FE, naturally aspirated) and the MAF sensor is super finicky in regard to filter and intake pipe diameter and shape. As I understand it is somewhat common between toyota engines to be like this, i would recommend checking the exact specs for the intake in regards to pipe inner diameter, as well as comparing what you have to the stock airbox that was designed for that engine. When i wanted to run a K&N pod filter, even with my tune, I essentially needed a restrictor fitting to bring the MAF housing inner diameter to 2.5 inches, which is what the stock size is, and even then it wasnt perfect. Otherwise power was dropping off like 2500 before redline for running way too lean. I havent been able to follow this series too closely, so i apologize if youve already tried this. Best of luck, I hope you get things situated soon!
damn, that was creative with the phrases! and I am so glad you are currently sticking to the 2. it won't be as fun to watch as a viewer if you just immediately jump ship, to a faster car.
Glad to see they're tuning the suspension. I don't understand the video schedule, but it seems like they left it in the "my car is trying to kill me" phase for a very long time.
"These people are unaware, extremely unaware actually." -Me during my daily commute to work
Great one liners in this video! "Got to be patient, I'm not patient"
Coby is a character! I'd love to see him on the channel more as he's just as entertaining as the Ben's while providing helpful feedback!
agree!
Super awesome!
As an owner of both a 2ZZ and K20 MR-S... Bite the bullet and get a wing, 9 Lives Racing is insane bang for buck. I was wrestling with the same Torsen issues and had to modulate the throttle a lot on exits not to light up the inside tire... And now those issues are gone on both cars, even in tight low speed corners. Bury the throttle before the apex and forget it, the rear is planted.
It almost feels like cheating on this chassis - I dropped 3 full seconds on a 90 second track. After tires, a wing is the best bang for buck mod on this platform, no doubt about it any more. IIRC the rules didn't punish aero that much, but the way you can drive with confidence is worth it.
Bonus trivia: contrary to popular belief, a wing on a low power car doesn't necessarily mean lower top speeds on track. Due to faster cornering speeds, earlier throttle and thus way faster exits, I am 5-7 kph faster with a wing at EVERY SINGLE braking point on the tracks in my country. The drag-to-speed tradeoff happens way later with a good wing than the speeds you reach on most tracks.
excellent info
💯
That was very disappointing on the power loss diagnostic
Yes. I was hoping there was a solution or causation for the power loss. Not sure if it had been diagnosed later but a potential over rev?
@@btownballer27 Mark posted it on his channel a couple days ago. Weird injector failure.
Coby is a hell of a driver!
Dude was an animal.
Yep. Seeing the pedals was dope
Love how Coby checks the brakes every now and then to see if they're still biting or there's some fading going on while going on the straights when he's soon to go for a hard braking
Edit: Thanks to you guys, i learned that it's to get rid of Brake knockback, which means pushing the brake pads closer to the rotors so the response is more instant when needing to use the brakes, still fun to see it happening out of sheer force of habit
I’m no pro, but I’m pretty sure he’s getting rid of brake knock. I have to do the same in my car
@@dearlove88 could be that as well, i'm no pro either, but what's true is that Coby's doing something with the brakes before using them mid race, that's for sure
so hes not checking the breaks, in driving the car the breaks push the pads away and by him tapping the breaks it brings it right back so when he goes to use them it right there with no delay
Yup, checking for pad knock back. Some cars get it, some dont. Just a habit of pro drivers to do it no matter the vehicle
Checking for knockback.
"awd and a supercharger would be interested" that dude needs a reality check
Or needs to uninstall Forza.
But I'll say, I'm very much an enjoyer of supercharged inline 4's, so I liked half of that idea!
I’m wondering if any of them saw the video on WHY they had to make the car heavier
Almost none of the comments were highlighted to shame the commenter. A lot of viewers are younger or just not involved in mechanical aspects of cars enough to know what's realistic. But some of the comments are goofy.
I mean it’s not like it’s impossible, just expensive and definitely not worth it for this platform
@@GearsandGasolinebased and patient-pilled
Great idea to have a pro show what your car is capable of and give you feedback on your setup. More youtube track builds should do this.
Why run a Haltech ECU, and not use the wideband closed loop feature with long term fuel trims? Any shifts in fueling are corrected for immediately by the PID control so the motor has correct fueling. Consistent fueling 101 for a Track Car!
Yup, tune the car in open loop, then turn on closed loop 100% of the time, same why I did mine on Hondata. Either way you have to trust the O2 sensor, so it's almost a no brainer nowadays.
That and running a MAF on a racecar then wondering why the fuelling is all over the place...
Fuck the MAF off, tune it speed density, enable closed loop, sorted.
@@JamesBalazs THIS THIS THIS. MAF is basically always garbage on a track car.
@@JamesBalazs What's the problem with running a MAF to meter in air? Assuming the MAF is placed in a laminar flow environment I don't really understand why it would be worse?
@@asian4747 they're inaccurate at higher flow rates (although maybe higher than the MRS will ever see). Great for low flow at idle / cruise to help get the AFR right for emissions / economy, but not great for accurately, consistently making top end power. Need a separate IAT sensor for baro/temp correction, thus temperature changes you haven't tuned for will cause you to make less power. Intake leaks will affect fuelling moreso than when running MAP based fuelling since you have unmetered air. MAF can be contaminated by oiled filters and gives incorrect readings as a result.
If the intake is modified near the MAF, since the factory MAF calibration is the voltage vs kg/hr of the MAF "with the factory intake tract" specifically, so it's not going to be accurate and you have to work around that *everywhere else* in the tune. People will argue this isn't the case or doesn't matter, but I've owned cars that run like shit with an induction kit fitted and no tune, since the MAF calibration is no longer accurate - not something you want to cause you headaches on a race car.
OEMs used them when widebands were 5x more expensive and less common decades ago, and the narrowband O2 sensor can only read cruise / idle AFRs around 14:1 for emissions purposes. Nowadays, especially if you already have a wideband and a standalone, I can't fathom why you wouldn't use what is universally accepted as a better fuelling model (MAP based VE vs MAF) other than a rush to get the car ready without removing the MAF and fitting a MAP sensor.
I have a 2ZZ/C65/LSD Spyder that I race here in Australia so I am definitely behind you holding on to the car! What is interesting though is how you choose to NOT run a rear wing. When I took my aero off the car had such poor balance I went straight back in to the pit to put it back on (although a greater straight line advantage without it). I believe once you get your power/weight balance correct and you sort out your stability issues, you will absolutely fly.
Keep it up guys! 😎
same observation here too.. With the wing, the car can be mechanically loose at low speed (already is), and more safe / understeery in the high speed sections? Ben Lin, got a big (wing) reveal soon? :D :D
Absolutely love the quotes on the livery. And also the dedication to making this build work. So much respect to you Ben for not listening to all the hate and doing a k swap or whatever everyone’s suggesting. You’ll get it there, I have faith in you buddy. Keep up the good work 🤙🏻
And this is exactly why he's failing k series better engine easy 50hp more better transmission, diff ect if he's trying to be competitive u can already see this car has reached its limit and its still at the back if he wants to be competitive unfortunately its gotta go and might aswell of done it in the first place this ben never wants to go k series tho and that'll be the downfall this time
@@devonboss3733 Or stick with what the lotus used: a supercharged 2ZZ . But, most of us are just keyboard warriors (I am) and I couldn't even dream of what Ben has already accomplished.
Huge fan of the MR2 and Marc's work. I hope you don't have to give up on the car to stay competitive, but ultimately I get that losing because your tool isn't fit for the job sucks.
Good luck finding why the car lost so much power and hope you can make the car competitive.
I have no doubt you'll get everything sorted with this car and turn it into a pretty competitive car in gltc. After seeing what you were able to do with the evo and all the development not only with the car itself but as a driver as well, I have no doubt you will start climbing the ladder. Keep it up Ben!
Don’t give up on this build Ben, I love it! I’ve been fighting issues on my own 2ZZ swap and surprisingly, some of the issues have been related to air trapped in the cooling system. I’m looking forward to future episodes!
Did you try the Toyota bleeding procedure? It should be pretty straightforward
@@omarawilson2853 I followed a guide that had been posted to Spyderchat. I'm honestly not sure how closely it matches the official Toyota procedure. One minor quirk is that I have an aftermarket radiator and the bleeder design is a bit different than stock. I think I have it sorted at the moment, but there are still some intermittent idle issues. Thank you for replying.
@@The_Stick odd. I have a Celica and the Bleeding procedure is quite straightforward, I too have an aftermarket radiator. These engine are pretty easy to bleed. I wonder what could be the hang up with urs
Are you bleeding it 1st before turning over the engine and making sure the cap is off? The moment you get one mistake you can end up doing the bleed procedure 2-3x or more to get it right again
I think this has been mentioned but, since you've got to throw a bunch of weight at it anyway, I would definitely say that stiffening the chassis as much as you possibly can is the way to go, as opposed to dead ballast just siting there
With the haltec you could probably add a blip throttle downshift. Since several people comment how the owner doesn’t heel toe.
How exactly would you do that? Call me out of touch but on my 90s ecu I can only change the fuel map, ignition map, rpm at idle and compensation for the fuel map when cold😂
@@Fred_the_1996only with drive by wire throttle body. You can command the throttle to open when you hit the clutch (engage the clutch switch)
I am so loving this MR2 series. I look forward to it every Saturday, it makes my weekend
In City Racer, an online racing game that has been in service for 20 years in Korea, many users say they wish the Toyota MR2 model would be released.
Disclaimer: i dont claim to be a driving expert just owned supercharged AW11 and tracked it:
I re watched a few of your track videos. With midships: left foot braking and how you use it is key. I see you using it to safely scrub speed but you need to lean more into it. trust it and you to control the cars rotation and balance. If the car balance gets upset or disturbed mid apex (ok, when it happens..) keep on power *while* left foot braking.
LFB is a hard concept to master but if you can trust it and your self : you will learn to love the midship shinangans. If your brain has trouble processing LFB and rev match simultantiously : prioritize LFB.
Your dedication to that car makes me miss my aw11. You got this
the comments really resembles how the car community looks today, most of it anyway.... "oh something is broken, i cant be bothered to replace it so ill just buy a new car"
Dig the fact that the livery keeps the red/white color scheme, and glad you're sticking to the MR-S as-is. It would be easy to just chase power, but you've decided that this is your tool of choice, and you're just going to hone it the best you can, and I respect that.
Instead of adding ballast for weight penalty, consider taking the weight as lsd and much more rear wheel and tire. Put the tire where the weight is. Mid engine driving and setup is completely different than ff or fr cars. More rear wheel and tire is the same as adding wing if the tires are sticky and on temp. It will allow power to be applied sooner mid corner and brake later but without the penalties associated with a wing.
Also the McPherson strut love camber lots of camber because it looses camber as the suspension compresses. Take temps across the tire and dial in camber to even the temps. And for goodness sakes get and alignemnt with .1 or .2 degree toe IN rear.
A Coby' track series named "What is THAT GUY doing ?" would be very entertaining
I love the MR2. I've always liked the MRS even though it was the most hated MR-2 model. I've always thought the aesthetics reminded me of a Porsche.
You can’t give up on this project - getting this to work will involve learning so much more than copying a predictable platform could ever reach you. Really cool to see a pro trouble-shoot and give feedback too. Awesome build series 👍🏻
This video really highlights the massive difference in skill between a pro and your average amateur racing driver.
Glad to see you're not giving up on dialing in the #caMR2y. Illwraps did an awesome job (I also have a pic with that Hotwheels background)! ✌️💀🔰🔥🎌🏁
Racing is so challenging by itself. Disappointment is a part of it, but SO much harder when sharing on social media. Interesting how EVERYONE seems to know what you should do. Keep perservering and race what you want! Hoping you solve the power problem because man, that is frustrating.
And the trouble shooting makes the series more fun to watch. It's the suspense that keeps all hooked
Most theories end up with Ben almost dying. Glad you decided to diagnose the engine problems. We could all use more help learning how to solve problems. These videos are awesome. Keep 'em coming!
Have you considered on rear sway bar on why the rear is lifting? My friend with an mr2 has same issue and he’s suspecting it to be the sway bar lifting the tire rather than the diff being the problem.
That’s the issue though, whether it’s lifting the tire or not the open diff is still going to cause problems with stability and traction. Especially when exiting any camber on turns, which will lift a tire and burn that one. An LSD or even just welding the diff would guarantee that the wheels are both getting basically full power split in half to each. Then even if a wheel is lifted the other one contacting the ground can keep putting forward momentum in without losing traction nearly as easily. There is a reason that diffs are usually something that is done very early or even many cars that already have a pretty decent oem lsd. Civic Si’s have LSD’s, as do the Type R’s, Exige/Elise’s have LSD’s on most models, the Evora as well, hell it’s even on many trucks that have a tendency to lift wheels when off roading. LSD’s are one of the most useful and often overlooked mechanical parts that are huge for helping squeeze every last bit of speed out of the corners and transitions.
BTW removing the sway bar would most likely solve that problem but then you just end up losing a lot more of the straight line stability. The best of both worlds is an adjustable softer sway bar that you can fine tune. Then you won’t lift wheels nearly as easy and will keep a lot of the stability benefits on uneven straights that have a lot of bumps that hit one side of the cars tires and not necessarily the other sides tires. That’s where sway bars excel at keeping the car stable without adding any spring rate the to springs holding the car up.
I don't think the tire is lifted at all, seems to be just the phrase he uses. It's smoking a lot which means it's on tarmac. It's simply the matter of the infamous one tire fire because he doesn't have the LSD to brake that wheel and send the power to the outside wheel.
Adding a rear bar will promote more oversteer as well. It helps with the diff issue however it might make him go slower.
@@roochiecoochThe only LSD available is a helical, which will act the same as an open diff if a tire is lifted. Welding is not a viable solution, it's not a shitty drift rat
There’s many ways to win… one way is to look at what’s working for others and try to do it better. That’d be called “following the meta”. Another way to win is to attempt to take a different approach and try to perfect it… ie, “going against the meta”. This second way requires thought, trial and error, time and effort! Sometimes it doesn’t pan out… but when it does! Wow, that’s a magnificent achievement! The sense of accomplishment is monumental! Hang in there Ben! Stick with it! Both Miata and Lotus have made it work with low weight/terrific handling… the MR2 is a solid platform. You can do it!
Rooting for you, video shows how much effort it takes just to try to even get a car competitive way after it has initially been sorted. The platform i think has proven itself but seems like every new person taking it on runs into similar issues. There may be two camps for this but the big thing as a fan of that car that always stood with me is how successful many drivers i knew became once they worked on suspension from the idea its basically same as a FR with weight in the back, rather then a FWD in reverse, easiest way i can describe it. Whatever you find works thanks for documenting the journey! 👍
Damn i forgot how well ur videos looked!, good job with the editing and the camera angles,documentary level quality here 👌
Not every car needs a damn K-swap. You people need to think outside the box once in a while. The current engine choice is already an interesting one, I like the way this project's going.
using the rubber hose to take out the spark plugs is genius
I admire your resolve. Remember the track meet where the mrs set the best time despite the rain. That's only a small dose of its capability. Keep up the good work, and obviously, I'll stay tuned.
i love these track based videos, thanks!
As a MR2 fan, I’m glad you are sticking to the car. 2zz or kswap.
One of my favorite race season inspired episodes, and seasons, for that matter. Watching all these people working together to try and build this raw combination up essentially from scratch is like watching the best kind of documentary
Great to see some development progress! Having a pro driver help out and show what's possible is a great move. As a pro myself and with a lot of MR2 experience in autox, I'd suggest a larger front sway bar if you are running the stock one. It's so easy to install (be sure to get the reinforcement blocks!) and will help a lot to minimize or even eliminate inside wheelspin (depending on a few factors). It'll also give you better front grip (yes it's counter-intuitive on MR2s but it has to do with the front strut geometry) *and* more all around stability in the car. They can be a real joy to drive! The stock front bar is just not enough, unless you go crazy on front spring rates and damping. The larger front bar is a great interim fix before adding LSD, and you might possibly still want the stiffer bar on even after adding LSD. I suspect the car will still be tricky to drive if you add LSD to it the way it sits now. Lastly, if you're not running at least -3 degrees front camber, try it. It will help tremendously on front grip, but I'd recommend only doing that after adding the front bar, because the car is loose enough already. Actually lastly lastly, it sounds like the rear tires are locking under hard braking. Not sure if this is an ABS issue or a bias issue from here.
I know it seems like the car is miles off the pace but there is a lot of development and optimization on the table at this point, and you're forging your own path, so there is definitely more to come if you stick with it! Good luck and happy to help if I can!
They air intake vents are smaller than the mr2 vents with that body kit, that's probably where missing 5% went lol
That could be a thing, but I wouldn't think that would make a difference when it's stationary on the dyno.
@@nehok I say it because I watch a boy called @dannydc2 and he used to race one of them and he had issues with his air intake but hadn't changed the rear wings for wider ones but the air intake is behind Ben and the standard airbox does better than a cone filter type of thing. He did the standard mr2 engine but same shit. They vents are much smaller than the standard ones. The outside looks about the same but it cones in where the standard ones were wider opening but the same outer size. I think, had a smoke you see sir haha
You are at the most rewarding part of racing right now, the dial in. Every little change you feel so much faster, its euphoric when it goes well and crushing when it goes wrong.
Rear wing and lsd would improve these problems at least a bit I think. Though a rear wing would cut down on top speed which I can imagine is vital in wheel to wheel.
A fun technical video with some VIR line training? You’re spoiling us. I’d love to see a video with Coby talking through footwork/strategy.
Thank you for sticking with the MR2. Giving up and switching engine or chassis would've been easier, but also boring. Hunting down the gremlins with the MR2 is way more entertaining
someone tell jermaine that his laptops battery is about to go boom @4:49.
The MR-S is a beautiful platform. Don't give up Ben
I enjoy the videos about the MR-S Good to see some improvement. Best of luck!
Since the day I got a LSD in my daihatsu Mira while circuit racing, I'll never ever want to track a car without LSD. I hope you'll be able to maximize on handling and not focus on the power just yet.
The livery is so cool! Theres something cool about an underdog
love that your doing something different and going a different direction that can open up insite into this engine.
Could you add a spoiler to the rear to help with stability in the rear end
My favorite build on your channel. I hope you don't give up on it. There is obviously something wrong if you are down 30 hp. Solve that problem and then see where you stand competitively.
the onboard footage is incredible
watching daddy coby rinse the poor misses is mesmerizing
Stick with it Ben! Never give up! You got this!!!
I’m glad you’re sticking with the mr-s I enjoy watching it going around the track slow or fast!
Never stop not giving up!
I love that he checks brake pressure after every longer straight
Love the series of videos about this car. Very enjoyable to watch car development and I really hope you guys can continue to figure more out.
"Your doing great with your knife" lol
9:57 that POV shot was intense, wow!
Wrap was all it needed to go fast lol. Glad you’re sticking with it.
Literally made me smile and sigh with relief when u showed the livery
The car looks so much better! You deserve to drive a great looking car - you put in the time and your an amazing person.
Take a few notes from the Techno Pro Spirit MR-S, sets amazing lap times for such a simple build!
2ZZ vs 2AR as well though... with 2zz lift its a little different for power delivery for 2AR
Really glad I went the 2zz route with my MRS build
love the video. love that the mr-s is getting love....but what the hell is that yellow thing at 8:05 in the video?! lol
I really love the fact you took the best MR2 (and sports car Toyota ever made in terms of weight) and just went with it.
My 01' GT-S Celica is amazing, but after seeing in person what a Lotus Elise looks like...I can see what is possible with the same engine in a completely re-engineered form.
I love the livery. Especially the incorporation of phrases and credits to those who helped you develop the car 😊 Well done. I hope you find the cause of the car being down on power and seat time, seat time, seat time!
I rejected 'heel and toeing' a long time ago in favor of 'toe and heeling' as I fingered braking control and confidence and was more important than blipping. Good to see I'm not alone.
If you can't get a diff in time, just weld that thing. I have a welded diff in my Beetle that probably handles similarly (certainly is also miles off pace). But when I went from open to welded it picked up time. If the car is weight transferring enough to get that slip on corner exit, then if you drive it right it won't be a huge detriment. It's very bad in rain, it'll make the car push, but in the dry it works well enough to be faster. Especially on the larger corners you have on road courses, my experience is in autocross. So your smallest corners are probably some of my biggest.
Or you can go nuts like I may do soon and search Quaifes website for diffs with the same ring gear ID and see if you can machine a diff from something else to fit. For example I've found Subaru front diffs and S2k diffs have the same ring gear ID as my beetle and cost about a 3rd of what the quaife does. With some relatively simple machining I may be able to adapt one.
@@Levibetz hey, just out of curiosity, what Subaru front diff could fit in a beetle? And does a welded diff help the death experience of going though a high speed corner?
I don't want to make mine a race car, but a car I can use on the road and track days, so I don't like the idea of having a welded diff. If a Subaru front differential could fit,that would be excellent.
@@johnybenx3165 Well to be clear I haven't done it, I've only lined em up next to eachother and confirmed the same ring gear ID. Only the 6mt STI transmission has the LSD front. Again, it'd be a custom machining project, and not at all a drop in. S2k is also a candidate, but again this is just off comparing drawings. Welded diff can be a bit hairy, the car will not want to turn in, and then once that inside tire starts slipping may suddenly rotate more. I definitely wouldn't recommend it, but for an experienced driver it is faster around a track I suspect. The ultimate is the Quaife for a beetle, it is just a drop in replacement and should be fantastic. To be clear this is all for IRS transmission. The swing axle is it's own beast.
How much horsepower did you gain with the new livery?
Probably like 75, I gain 5 for every sticker I have on my Honda
@@fujiwararowan they get 10 horses for every letter that mrs has
@@genuinelyspoken6611 Wonder why they say the MR2 is so slow then. Maybe they need more letters
This must be frustrating for Ben, but lord does it make great content 😅
If you are running a MAF, clean it! Use throttle body and intake cleaner spray. Make sure it says sensor safe. Or MAF cleaner spray if you can find it
I would’ve done a 2ZZ-GE plus a supercharger (similar to the lotus elise) instead of the hybrid motor
I love the red shit bucket! It's becoming one of my favourites! Underpowered, yes! Sketchy, hell yes! Entertaining, that a big f***ing yes!
Can't wait to see the end of season engine tear down update. The universe is just handing you free content :P
Jokes aside it's so cool to see the spyder go from basically a stock car to a fully liveried track machine.
I absolutely love this car as is..just keep grinding and you will inch closer to where you want to be.
Ben, was this one of the cars that got damaged in the garage flood? Possible fuel system contamination or maybe a clogged (or more likely stuck if it’s running rich )injector?
The fact that it didn’t want to make a pull with the exhaust off is also slightly telling I think along with Marcs comment on it shouldn’t matter with the maf sensor. Maybe bult a quick test pipe to eliminate the muffler and bends and try having your guy do a speed density test tune to eliminate those two possibilities. It kind of seems like your MAF sensor isn’t giving you terribly good readings
no , this car was not domaged in flood . His evo 9 previous track car was flooded and he had mr2 ... most probably that is why he is driving it , if evo wasn't flooded he most probably wouldn't try this hard to make something of this MR2
At the end of the day the car is exactly what it was intended for, a great wheel time car!!! I think you're trying to take an undeveloped car and be competitive with guys who have been developing their cars for years. Keep that in mind and keep grinding, all it can do is get better and develop you as a driver.
props for sticking with it, tall ben. The spyder will treat you right eventually i can feel it.
I got my magnificent red sht bucket 2 years back and find watching your build to be extremely inspiring. Can’t wait to watch the car get faster
Super awsome documenting of the struggle of figuring out a tricky car. Keep pushing Ben!!
Curious about the clutch master, some say EM1, some say S2K, I put a Ktuned one on my 8th gen Si when I had it and regretted it. I suggest Honda OEM here, I think you have to get a "U" adapter to make it fit in that tight space but it seems like would be worth it 👌
Hello Ben!
It’s very joyful and interesting to follow the development of your MR2.
I wish you not to give up and bring it to that condition when the Hondas are left behind!
I built an identical MR-S ZZW30 with a 3S-GTE engine for Time-Attack and race it against Evo and BMW M2.
This is difficult considering that I only have 260-280 hp. versus 500-600 hp they have. I'm still struggling with the oversteer of this chassis, but the guys at Togue Time chanel have helped me a lot here.
Their Techno Pro Spirit workshop video and conversation with Asano-san is the bible on MR-S chassis tuning. Be sure to watch it if you are not familiar with this video.
everything will definitely work out, don’t give up on this project please!
Best regards, Alexey Filippov
Such an awesome production, build and feedback from Coby!
The mr2 is definitely fighting outside it’s weightclass but I think when’s it’s dialed.. and you figure out the horsepower issue.. and learn how to drive it… it will definitely be competitive
I love that you stuck with the MR2 as is and just worked out some suspension work with a pro. The saying in photography the best camera is the one you have on you, i guess can go with cars, the best car you have the one you already on the track. Not sure you thought of this, but have you checked to see if the ecu is the culprit if the tuner was thinking the file was reverting back? I cant remember if you have a standalone ecu on this or just a modified toyota/mr2 ecu, maybe swapping or go standalone?
He already has a haltech
@@RaphaelMenoni thanks, i couldn't remember.
It's cool to hear that the ExtremeContact Sport 02 is the go-to rain tire for GLTC. I have those on my NC Miata and did some touge driving in the damp last night, and they were absolutely unshakable. I didn't really even believe the road was damp until we switched to my buddy's Mustang and had a few near Iketani neck-brace moments.
@3:05 Get rid of those Iridium/Platinum tip plugs. Copper is THE BEST CONDUCTOR on a plug. The ONLY advantage of Iridium/Platinum plugs is longevity (so you can run them basically 100k miles in your street car).
dope wrap!
Absolute best video you’ve ever produced. Insane execution with this one. You guys rock.
Heya!!! I *may* have useful info, sorry im ao late to this vid!
I have a scion tc, 1st gen (2AZ-FE, naturally aspirated) and the MAF sensor is super finicky in regard to filter and intake pipe diameter and shape. As I understand it is somewhat common between toyota engines to be like this, i would recommend checking the exact specs for the intake in regards to pipe inner diameter, as well as comparing what you have to the stock airbox that was designed for that engine. When i wanted to run a K&N pod filter, even with my tune, I essentially needed a restrictor fitting to bring the MAF housing inner diameter to 2.5 inches, which is what the stock size is, and even then it wasnt perfect. Otherwise power was dropping off like 2500 before redline for running way too lean.
I havent been able to follow this series too closely, so i apologize if youve already tried this. Best of luck, I hope you get things situated soon!
@GearsandGasoline
Funny I saw this car with you,having this same livery on a another channel a few weeks ago😅
Would’ve been nice to see the lap time of the Lotus for comparison.
Ben, the livery on the mr2 looks so good!!
Take the weight out to compensate for the low power and re dial suspension...then get a lsd for the box...also,,fiddle with the final drive a bit
damn, that was creative with the phrases! and I am so glad you are currently sticking to the 2. it won't be as fun to watch as a viewer if you just immediately jump ship, to a faster car.
Mr2 with its coverage in G&G channel: 🤗
Meanwhile the S2000: 🗿
just kidding, we all love the sh*tbucket. it's a feisty lil thing
Only have enough money to work on one at a time sadly :(
@@GearsandGasoline it's ok, every video you guys put out is amazing. may the snap oversteer gods bless the Mr2
Glad to see they're tuning the suspension. I don't understand the video schedule, but it seems like they left it in the "my car is trying to kill me" phase for a very long time.