I don't get why the formula is based on height, what if the person is tall but has narrow shoulders or vice versa? Or if the person has long or shorter arms
Yeah it doesn’t make sense. I’m 194cm tall and my max bar width is supposed to be 853.6mm. I’m currently using 780mm and I’m thinking about making them more narrow
Because it's obviously just a rough estimate, and body height is easy to measure. Much more so than to find the middle of you shoulder joints to measure their distance. Also, while obviously there are different physiques, ROUGHLY shoulder with DOES go with body height. Also, the formula is mentioned give you the MAXIMUM bar width.
COUPLE NOTES: The 4.40 calculation is based on a male of average proportions with an upper arm angle of 20 degrees for optimal shoulder joint health and push/pull strength. This provides an estimated MAX. Going a bit narrower always works and provide more pull strength and more range of motion. If you are over 6'2 or 188cm run whatever you like as long as it feels good. Females of average proportions may find more accuracy using a multiplier of 4.26
I was actually wondering if different skeletal structure and size (shoulder bone to shoulder bone) also play a role to the bar width. For example, I measure 22 inches shoulder to shoulder, which is also the distance from the middle of one palm to the other if I set my arms by my side.
As a female rider, I do appreciate that you include recommendations for females here in the comments, but it would be really awesome if you could include this in your videos as well! If all these details are so critical to successful riding, please don't treat women as secondary or an after thought. Most mtb content defaults to males and it is challenging to figure out if it applies the same to women given our different body proportions. Where I ride it is 50/50 males/females on the trail, so please include everyone! Anyway, really appreciate the content!!
Didn't lee learn his lesson about arbitrary fudge factors to height with the RAD measurements? Also, it wouldn't even be 4.4, just use 0.44 so you don't even need to think about units. Looking forward to the video in a couple of years when he admits again he was thinking about it all wrong, but we should believe him now.
For "carbon", it all depends on which process was used. And you can change absolutely every little aspect of a composite item production to your exact liking. I had the chance to do a report at Look factory (frames, pedals, outer soles, aero handlebars, etc.), and those folks confirmed it : "We can make frames a thousand different ways, composite ends up being what you want... there's no obligation.". So... unless you know exactly how this composite tube was made, just don't cut it. Don't. No ! Or ask the factory, and most times they'll reply : "Don't... the end tips participate into the structural properties of your handlebar. If you cut them, you risk weakening... then breaking, possibly.". Unless specific inserts were used, and you receive the OK to shorten them.
Using a pipe tool gives the edge a bevel which CAN punch through your bar end in a severe accident and cause major damage. Just beware of that. At the bike shop we always use a hacksaw and a the park tool SG 7.2.
Came from a hardtail with narrow bars, never had any aches, bought a new bike a few months back with 780mm bars. For the first month of riding I had wrist ache and my inner thumbs felt "Bruised" and I would subconsciously move my hands right to the inside of the grip and I wouldn't realise until I went to change gear and had to move my hand. Came across this vid, did the formulae, I'm only 5' 6"-ish and my width came to 740mm, cut the bars down to that, and even though it's literally only an inch off each end, it's became a lot more comfortable to ride, I'm more upright, cornering feels better and I feel more in control at lower speeds...Thanx Guys.
YOU GUYS ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING THIS KIND OF CONTENT!! My MTB has changed my life, your information has changed my riding!! Keep the sizing stuff coming please and thank you!
This is great. I have been riding 780 for a while now. I am 6.1 with quite a long arm reach and wide shoulders, so I followed the trend and went with the widest bar I could find. I have been feeling like my bike is not working properly, balance was way off whenever I got air time. Cornering was real sketchy. Something always felt off. I never questioned my bar length, and kept trying other things. I thought it was just me trying to get back into mtbing at 49 years of age, and kept pushing myself to just get it right. Funny thing happened the other day. When I first got my bike about a year ago, I had a pair of bars that I cut down from 800. I was trying to get them to 760, but I messed up and cut them to 740. So I shelved them as rubbish, and bought another set, 780, that I kept. The other day I thought, lets try swapping the 780's for my old 740's. I swapped them out, and rotated them a bit more forward than I would normally run. What a difference!! I cannot believe how good the shorter bars feel now! Bike feels way lighter and poppier. More balance in the air. I feel so much more confident in cornering as well. Such a small change but such a massive difference. Loving my new setup!
Upgraded my XC mtb and noticed handle bar width was 780 mm, up from 700 mm on previous bike. As a lifetime time weightlifter, the closer grip feels more comfortable and stable, and from experience, open shoulders lead to injuries. I cut the bar to 720 mm. Feels great!
My XC MTB came with 680mm and I went and put on some 800mm today and it was not comfortable at all. It lost its responsiveness. Did you notice the same thing?
These videos are really great! I think i have searched 10's of times for information on determining handlebar width and now i came across this by chance through one of your other videos. I'm glad i did. Great video and great channel!
Your formula is accurate for me. I am running 760 but unconsciously moving my hands inwards. I am 168x4.4=739.2 but i think i'll leave it there. I will adjust my brake lever inwards. Always great content! Keep it up! Thank you.
This with the bike sizing video are absolute gems. I appreciate that the focus is ensuring the bike is set up according to the biomechanics of the rider. For cutting bars, pipe cutters from a hardware store are a good option too. I recently got a my first FS bike and had an anxiety inducing moment when I nervously went to see if it was properly sized (used the lying on my back method). It was (direct-to-consumer, they had me submit multiple body measurements when ordering). Now I'm interested in handle bar width as well. I like the suggestion of narrowing the grips and brakes/shifter and then cutting. Would be easy to do on trail with a multi-tool as well. Keep up the great content. Seriously, when are we going to get a Patreon? You guys are absolutely killing it.
You two are really providing great content based on new lines of thinking and science. I really enjoy watching and learning from your videos. Old dogs can learn new tricks (skills)
This channel deserves all the subscribers in the world. Such a joy to watch. I'll be 40 this year and just got myself a nukeproof scout 290 comp and I'm recently getting back into trail riding. The 800mm bars feel ok (I'm 177 cm) but I struggle to control the bike fully. I am going to move my controls and make adjustments until I see what's best. Thanks for all the info you guys are putting out there.
Thank you for your videos. they are very educational. I'm 47 yrs old. and I ride the trails about 2X a month ( family and Dad stuff) I'm very exited to try your tutorials on all of this . I get exited and go outside about 9pm and just try the things you put on RUclips. Thank you. Working on my bunny hop and I'm trying the Wheelie how to video.
I was watching this between sets of working out, and decided to measure my estimated bar width (792) compared to my bench press and military press grips. Appropriately enough, it landed right in the middle. Another thing for shoulder health I think about is sometimes I see "attack" positions that have the elbows up so high that the shoulder starts getting into internal rotation, which can cause all sorts of problems. Be kind to your rotator cuffs, they're little and wimpy, but essential.
I watched this several times - it is a great video. After some experiments I left my LEVO sl at 760 (my calculated for 180 cm is 790) but then I started looking at my xc bike I have for 10 years. It has 690 bars but it has at least 30 mm longer stem compared to levo and still feels good after all the experiments. For sure this video helps in optimizing the bars and knowing why. Thanks
gotta tell ya guys... i took this advice and cut my bars down. my izzo came w/ 760's. which is acceptable for a M frame. at 66" or 167.64cm i came up with 737mm bars. i rounded up to 740mm. just that little cut w/ an 8° sweep made a lot of difference. mainly, less fatigue and cramping in my hands. now both my bikes are running 740's and it feels pretty solid. thanks again!
I'm glad to see thought put into this. Too many reviews are of the "super-wide for super-ride, dude!" variety, and they just sound like ads to buy new stuff that they KNOW will need to be replaced at some point. This applies to all kinds of components -- it used to be "you gotta go super narrow rims" then "you gotta go super wide rims". Same for tire pressure. Same for number of gears. Same for ultra-small cassettes that wore out, but then we got over that nonsense only to get pushed back into it with 1x setups. And so it continues...
Much of it is MTB fashion for sure. I'm glad bars are available in wider sizes than years past but it's funny the way riders are focused on width and pushups and willing to sacrifice pull/hops/range of motion. I think it's because the number one fear is OTB and they don't realize most OTBs happen right after a mistimed push!!
Watching this today.. three years later. So refreshing to see someone say "hey it's all we knew at the time and its no longer the best way". cool human beings! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Thanks guys, subbed, glad I found you. I was riding an older "all mountain" bike and I felt like a more competent rider, and rides were more enjoyable then. The bars on that bike had 760mm. I have upgraded to a new larger bike and haven't found riding as exciting and just realised now, upon measuring, that is is 790mm. I recently purchased a hardtail for different riding and for some reason I prefer riding that bike, that is with a 695mm bar. Now I know geometry is going to be a variable as well, but as someone who is 168, it sounds like I will cutting my bars. I'll go down from 790mm to 760 as a starting point and see how we go from there. Thanks again!
Big big thank you guys, I am just seeking for changing my old 620mm bar, and I am 181cm tall so... R.A.D was incredible and now perfect video at right moment with greatest people?, Man..., F*..ing awesome, regards from Spain
Hey Jesus, you may also consider to reduce the stem length. Which gives you a more direct control of the bike, which comes with the cost that it gets more flutter on gravel. Depends on your preferences
I'm 5-9 as well and my Cannondale Scalpel came with 680mm and today I put on 800 to test and it felt very uncomfortable and the bike lost its responsiveness. It will have to cut them for sure. The formula shows 770. I will start from there... What was the outcome on your bars?
Yes!!! Thank you. My bar is 30 inches and I’m 5’5 causing so much strain on on my shoulders and rotator cuffs. Coming from road biking, this sucked. I just bought 23 inch bar. Looking forward to it. Thanks for the video, still applicable 2 years later!
Thank you guys. My last bike came with 800mm bars. I had never used such wide bars but wanted to try them out. They felt ok just riding around the neighbourhood but as soon as I got on the trail I hated them. I left them alone to see if I would get used to them. A few days later I went to a trail system about 40 mins away and on one of the trails I ride often I got stuck twice trying to ride through the trees. I went back to the car and cut them down. I brought a hack saw just in case. No more knuckle dragging.
Glad I found this channel. This is exactly my thought - the bars are ridiculously long these days. First thing when I bought a bike is cut the bar. I won't even ride with the length it comes with.
Really enjoying your work. You are doing a great job presenting a lot of the same topics I see on other channels. But describing them in different ways that is truly letting me learn more about my riding.
Thank you! Totally makes sense. I had wide bars, hurt my shoulders. I went down to 680mm, rode for a month, too twitchy. Moved to 700mm... Perfect fit. Now I know, from your formula. My max is 737.6 700mm comfortable! Thank you!
One thing worth considering and a great addition to your formula would be where TOO NARROW starts to happen. I don't suffer from stability but I do find that I get a bit of elbow pain on a bar that isn't adequately wide.
Great video guys. Hit 50 this year and I have ordered my first modern mtb (haven't ridden for years). Used to be a personal trainer focusing on rehab and biomechanics, and I switched to pulling/pushing narrow because it doesn't hurt my bad shoulder (better mechanics) I'm also stronger in that position. My bike will have 800ml bars, so your advice and the calculation is a must for me. Thank you 🙏🏿🇬🇧🇦🇬
Damn... your channel is my new go to for all things MTB related. Started riding again last year after many years out of the sadel. I am soon 45 and I find your video koncept to suit me perfect. Got a new Kona Process 134 last friday .
A couple of years ago I brought Lee's book Dialed and got my bike setup as close as I could to his recommended dimensions with a different stem and spacers that I had already and a new bar and it all feels great especially when out the saddle and 'hinged' into some trails... so I would advise anyone to try what's in this video and the previous one covering fit. It sort of goes against what magazines and other sources seem to be saying but in all honesty it works... and bar width not being stupid wide is even more crucial when you're 56 like me 👍
I love the vibe these guys generate, and the ease by which they keep interest alive. But that interest, can result in an addiction to being misled. Like the sillyness behind the idea that any shorter bar width, is healthier than maximum width . According to the Alex formula, I'm supposed to need a max width of 80 cm. But I'm fairly sure I've never had bars more than 65 ~ish, being of the baby boomer generation, in England, the choices were very few, compared to recent years. And now, being ancient and having recently discovered e-bikes, so comfort, is more of an issue, I can't wait to run the risk of wasting 15 quid, just to find out what wide bars can do for me. Thanks for the advisory formula Alex.
Bought a bike last year. Really wish I had found this channel before, but luckily it turns out the bike almost fits me perfectly when I bought it... No wonder I like it so much! Probably could use a slights smaller stem to fit my RAD measurement better. Keep up the great work!!
When I've switched to a new set of grips without "outer clamp" (Bontrager XR Trail Comp instead of Lizard Skins Charger), immediately noticed that it feels like I'm riding a wider bar. After a few rides, decided to cut the bars, and get the same "grip distance" as before. It was just 5mm per side, but noticable difference. So I'd also add that you need to take into account what grips you are going to use, as some might get your palms to a different position...
geez ! another awesome video !! bar roll is also one major factor in handlebar fit !! i have been noticing most people who run with high rise bar, say 30mm +, they roll their bar way forward. with 8 or 9 degree backsweep, that overly forwarded bar roll changes the handlebar fit completely
I had had a bit on bar roll in here. I see people with bars rolled forward and the bars up at an angle and I worry about their shoulder joint. I would not want to pull hard at that angle.
I went back from 780mm to 760mm bars as they felt much more comfortable. My hands sit about 15mm in from the ends. I did the calculation = 727mm so absolutely spot on! Lee really does know his stuff!! 👏 👏 👏 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
I'm 5'9 and run 680s on my trail bike. Love them! In my area there are a lot of tight trails with narrow gaps between trees, the short bars are great for dealing with that.
My god, you guys are amazing. I'm having trouble fitting my mountainbike and you are helping me on the journey! I'm not there yet but this is a great recourse!
I treat handlebar width as a fit thing. For example I have bikes that have (slightly, by 15 mm) different reach. A wider bar makes me ride more forward. Of course I have different length stems on the bikes. Also, I ride trails that have very narrow gaps. I tried running an 800 mm wide bar and hit trees and rocks all too often with my bar ends. So, now I have 760 mm wide bar on a bike and a 776 (!) mm bar on another. I have good relaxed body position on both bikes and I can just fit in through most gaps at a reasonable speed. Great video, as always from you.
Been riding mountain bikes DH,CC for many years. I used to perseverate about all kinds of handwringing set up details including the one mentioned in this Video, which is well done by the way. All that changed a few years back when i added enduro motorcycle riding to my mix of activities. The perspective gained from riding a machine that has REAL forces to deal with revealed to me how silly it is get so hung up on minutia over a 20-30lb machine that is mostly suspended by your legs and takes comparatively little physical input to pilot.
Some truth to this. I started in moto and got my pro card in the early 80s. The moto should make you better on your bike too. More comfortable a speed.
The other benefits to narrower handlebars are that you can squeeze between trees better on the trail and get your bike into and lay your bike more easily on its side in your hatchback or SUV cargo area.
I have been watching some of your other videos and was blown away by the info in this video. Always wondered why my shoulders were hurting with wider bars and now I know. I can go back to the other video on selecting the correct bar sweep now that I have the formula for correct (starting point for the widest bar I should ride). Thanks for this eye opening info.
Awesome video. I stepped up to 785 about 2 years ago and it feels perfect. But at 203.2cm I should be running 894mm! Lol I'd never make it down the trail running that wide. I can barely squeeze through some trees as it is.
I'm 195. My brand new Trek EX8 XL has 780mm bars and I've been getting wrist pain, so considering reducing 10mm or so. The sizing factor started here makes my ideal size 860mm?
Best handle bar formula video that I have seen. I tried moving my gadgets around on the handle bars but they must have been placed by some kind of prior research because every way I tried was an epic failure, so I had to go back to the original configuration. But thats why I'm researching handle bars. Thanks.
Think about it...2 people same height=same bar width, right.... wrong. They could have totally different shoulder width and arm length, and the reach and ETT on their bike differ. The formula is, with any common sense, utter nonsense.
I'm loving your work guys. I have been making good progress on my hops. Which I used to think were unbelievably complicated, until you put me right. After watching your RAD videos and this handle bar video. I now know why I find hops easier with my older shorter reach and narrower handlebar bike.
Thanks Alex, this is perfect(kind of like your frame sizing video saved my butt) timing! I just received my new carbon bars when this video came out, I was assuming I would be at 780, but after doing the calculations and testing I’m at 760 and living it!! Thanks again for all you do!!!
These are so informational, and funny and well produced all in one package. I always seem to gravitate to these, and think "why dont I watch more of these". Big up!
Man, I'm also just over 5'7" and switched over to a 45mm stem and 800mm bar last October. Not twitchy enough IMO; resulted in 2 titanium plates, 4 screws and 5 pins in my left wrist later that very same day! I just got back on the bike last week. Will pull the controls in and try again!
I save lots of mtb videos to my watch later. I watch them all and then delete them from watch later after viewing. Except your videos. I just keep them there for future reference and to share with friends. Your videos are educational and needed! And btw - you are saving me money. The industry had me thinking my high end 2016 bike was out of date. Originally I thought the reach was too short for modern riding. Now I realize my reach and sizing is perfect. Which my body was telling me all along. Most recently I have been researching wider bars for a physical issue I am experiencing. Mine are 730 at 5 ft 8 in. Question. I do have hand numbness. I need to shake out my hands periodically. I notice it appears that the outside edge of my palms have more pressure than the inside edge of my palms on my grips. My bars have 9 degree backsweep. I was thinking if I went slightly wider (760) and a 8 degree backsweep maybe between the slightly wider grip and a bar that is slightly straighter across - the pressure point will be more evenly dispersed across my whole palm? Does the logic work? Thanks for the great videos.you are absolutely on your way to being the next huge channel.
John, 1) Make sure there's no weight on your hands. Watch our video about body position. 2) Consider bars with even more backsweep. I recommend SQlab bars with 12-16° of backsweep. I use 16s.
There are other factors - riding style and terrain; being able to fit through tight tree sections. I went from 800 to 780 and was better off. Also, besides just height, I find shoulder width is important to consider.
I would imagine shoulder width is THE measurement to base things off of. Perhaps there's some rough correlation between increased height and increased shoulder width, but it's not like we all have the same proportions. Otherwise I wouldn't be so high on the ape-index. :D Also, I'm 6'2" which is 188cm, and I absolutely shouldn't be on 827mm bars. :P
Love the vids, guys... keep em coming! I'd like to see a backsweep/upsweep video like this one as it relates to muscles worked and possible shoulder pain at different angles.
This was really helpful. I've been on 780s for a couple years, and though I'm 6'1", they've always felt a little too wide. Now that you've addressed the long bike and wide handlebars trends and how they impact riding and fit, how about head angle? It feels like we're being told that slacker is always better, but I'm skeptical, especially because of the narrow, twisty, undulating trails in my area.
I read Lee's book with Brian Lopes maybe 15 years ago and loved it. Just found him again while looking for info on proper bar width. I've been thinking over that time that bars just keep getting wider. Where is the limit? How wide is too wide? Well, at 800mm on my new Tallboy 4, I've decided this is it. I can't even fit through many tight spots, especially on older trails. 750mm on my 2020 Epic HT was wider than I'd had, but didn't feel TOO wide. Gonna start with 780mm as per the formula. Thanks again! 👍
My new Polygon T8 has wide 790 - 31" bars. My old bike has 630 - -25". What feels right is about 29" - 740. Before buying new bars, I'll likely take off an inch of each side. This video confirms my thoughts. Thank you for the video!
Just a thought, given everyone's body proportions are different, how about any equation based on shoulder width instead since it dictates push / pull comfort. Great content Alex and Lee, cheers!
The multiplier assumes average shoulder width, upper arm length and hand width. There are more detailed ways to assess optimal bar width, especially if you have special proportions. Learn all the details about bar width (and way more) at www.llbmtb.com. Enjoy a free month with the code JOYOFBIKE.
@@lee_likes_bikes Thanks Lee. btw I have your book Mastering Mountain Bike Skills and smiled when you referenced the pushup test in the video. I'm a fan of your teaching, thanks for the joyofbike trial.
Another great video packed with stuff we should know, but don't! I'm personally a little sick of how wide my bars are on my newest bike and based off the formula I'm running at least 20mm too long. I am more used to the handling by now, but at first I had a really tough time with bike control. Now I just dislike how often I come close to clipping the bars on trees and stuff on narrow parts of my local trails.
Hi Guys, How do you get the numbers that you use to calculate R.A.D (2.5) for bike sizing and now 4.4 for bar width? Just curious. I have used the RAD calculation and it works. I am really curious to see if the bar calculations will work for me. A year ago I changed my bar length from 760 to 780. A few months after I developed headaches after my rides, about 2 hours after riding to be precise. I never thought it could be because of my bar length. I am going to shorten bars and see if it makes a post-ride difference.
Great question. The handlebar calculation is based on average proportions and an upper arm angle of 20 degrees with the hands directly in front of the elbow.
The multiplier assumes average shoulder width, upper arm length and hand width. There are more detailed ways to assess optimal bar width. Learn all the details about bar width (and way more) at www.llbmtb.com. Enjoy a free month with the code JOYOFBIKE.
Super helpful. I just got a new bike. After my second ride yesterday my upper traps and back of shoulders were noticeabley sore. But I had zero idea where to begin with proper width. Thanks for the helpful and well explained info.
So Twitchy! Awesome content, editing, info, advice as always! Breaking it down with examples, and from experience. You guys could talk bike philosophy and people would still watch!
Scary how well that calculation works. I've been on 720s, 740s and 760s over the past decade, (and up to 820 on demos 😮,) but the calc says my max is a skosh over 780. Sure enough, the 780s I've been running the past few months are the best feeling I've had. Bend and sweep make a difference as well. Renthal's relatively shallow backsweep feels outstanding, whereas some of these 10 and 12 degree bars, (BMX freestyle is really bad about this,) feel horrible to me.
Im also 183 and currently riding (XC) with a 690mm bar, I bought a used bike and this bar came into it. I'm looking for a new bar in the past two weeks, I'll go straight to 760 once you said it, I've ridden a friend's bike with a 780mm bar and it felt veeeeeery awkward (due to the lack of twitchiness) but kinda good at the same time (the feeling of riding with my chest open), maybe 760 will work nice for me too
How bout a bar length formula based on shoulder width ( jacket size)? Also, the sweep angle needs to be part of the formula. If a bar was straight, it could be equal in length to shoulder width, but each degree of sweep allows for a longer bar. This is so dang important! Thanks for the vid!
I am th worldleader &king of kings in all aspect bicycles. Lol no i dont have videos. I explain it all HERE: (But people wont buy it, they cant) Handlebars, bikes ergonomics engineered by Lucifer. He HATES free energy. 95% humans Lucifers kids, tares. They are not humans. They subscribe, perpetuate false reality stupidity in all things. They are cmputer cntrolled hive mind. But they dont know that. Handlebar must be 29 or 30" 4average adult 5'9" 2 reasons. A front basket HANGING BY STRAPS FROM BARS is how 2transport up2 70lbs. Bicycles are MADE 2COMMUTE STRAIGHT LINE &CARRY THINGS. PERIOD &safety, stability handling. Those are your parameters. Revolve around those. Period. Bars wider then shoulders ONLY. 2 reasons. This forms a stable TRIANGLE required4 stability handling especially once u add weight front basket. Secondly, wide bars allow u carry wide objects like 5 2x4 wood resting on bars strapped 2waist. U can also carry things on long bars such as 5gallon buckets bar ends. Wide bar DRAMMATICALLY improve stability. As does LOWERING LOWERING LOWERING thseat. U must use heaviest ULTRA STRONG STEM. Bicyclists can not be taught. Bcuz they are pharisees. Know it alls. Regarding seat height. Most humans are NOT HUMANS. They are poisonous cmputer programs. Seat height. Lol ypur knees can bend pedaling &efficientcy functions just fine low seat. Lol satan teaches place head 6 feet from pavement, give tiny bars so now u a sky scraper &taller they are thmore easily they fall. Lol. I taught people how 2sit on bike 1980"s. Graeme Obree built bike matching my specs &30 guys broke hour record using my specs. Lol my seat is slammed down as LOW AS I CAN GET IT. This raises your bars essentially. So u NOT bent over but LOWER TO THGROUND 4ridiculous STABILITY &AERODYNAMICS. U will realize 1.5 mph at 21mph top speed electric motor as such even tho u upright but head several inch lower.. WIDE BARZ LOW SEAT, SEAT FORWARD, BARS IN CLOSE 2U PERIOD. Worlds best basic e bike bicycle design is used by me exclusively. This will not see production ¬1 person will ask 2c it in comments. Wide would they? They are pharisee tares. Computer animations. Know it alls. Fact. All E bikes are absolutely deploreable contraptions built by Lucifer boys. All manufacturimg &non humans are controlled by Satans BEAST cmputer. That computer revolves around me as its epicentre arch enemy. Meanwhile, all thworlds problems can be solved in thgarden. And 4godsakes sell your stable of 230 horses.
I agree. I am quite short but have wide shoulders so the length based formula doesn’t work for me. Another thing I missed was twitchiness can be adressed with a longer handlebar stem.
I’m 5’ 9 and I just cut my bars down from 780mm to 740 right before watching this video! I was having too much trouble getting in between the trees in the trails with the 780s… clipped a tree and ate dirt on my last ride! Great video! Just subscribed!
Loving these sizing videos. According to Leetonian calculations, I should be able to go up to an 820. I ride a 720 because I've always preferred narrower bars. Must be my inherent beanpoleishness.
I’m 6’2” and I run 760 as a max. I also don’t run carbon bars as when I did I found them too stiff which caused me rib pain from inflammation caused by the shock increase through my shoulders and back. Even my dirt bike is 760mm. More leverage than you’ll ever need and you can more around on the bike easier because you’re not forced to reach as far as if you have wider bars. Cheers guys!
@@lee_likes_bikes I recently went from 780 20mm rise to 800 38mm rise and I’m really liking it, but I think if I went 840 like your formula suggests, I’d have to avoid a lot of trails in my area since there are very tight sections 😄
is there some reason why almost every handlebar on the market as a 8-9° backsweep bend? That could be a discussion for another video. more sweep= shorter reach, most of the time.
Deity is 9 degree backsweep, Pnw range bar is 10 degree, and renthal bars are 7 degrees. But most are 8 and 5. I feel thats the sweetspot. But I still prefer renthal bars.
That was sick dude ! I stay in some Airbnb's right across the highway from there and will be bringing my new bike next time I come over. Thanks for your video.
Awesome stuff!!! I’ve always believed max wide didn’t make sense. How could it possibly? Oh back up. Ten years ago wide bars were 720 and that was an awesome shift. Now that’s considered narrow and bikes come with 800mm bars and stickers that say “designed for properly wide bars” wtf? I have short people come for lessons and they look like they are spread for a pat down! All that to say, I’m 174cm and have 720mm bars and pretty comfortable. I’ll try slightly wider at some point but I won’t be shamed into keeping them wider if I don’t like it!
This guys are absolutely life saver for me, at 6'7" 255 pounds I followed their formula for sizing the bike and reach and also handlebar witdh and it made all the difference in the world.
@ferg. I got a 800mm handlebar with a 35mm rise and checked my reach utilizing their method of balancing the bike on 2 ladders that's on another one of their videos and worked out great.
Seems others have stumbled across this a bit, most bikes these days come with 780 bars, which is the correct width for someone who is 5'10" by the 4.4 calculation. For anyone over 6 foot even 800s might be too narrow.
I'm 6'2 and I cut my bars based on where my hands naturally ended up being while riding. Oddly enough 770 is the sweet spot for me, 780 that extra bar hangs out the side of my hands
Also depends on limb length. I am 5ft 10 but with a short torso and long limbs. Pushing wide hurts my shoulder and my calculation max is 787.6 but looking at maybe 760, I will play around with it before I cut my bars.
Hi I’d jus like to say although I don’t post much but always watch your vids and I totally trust you and what you try to educate on mtb so a massive thank you 🤘🏻
I run 800s but I have crazy wide shoulders, buddy of mine is 6"4' and I'm a good 4 inches wide than he is, I feel like shoulder width is more important than your height
The multiplier assumes average shoulder width, upper arm length and hand width. There are more detailed ways to assess optimal bar width, especially if you have special proportions. Learn all the details about bar width (and way more) at www.llbmtb.com. Enjoy a free month with the code JOYOFBIKE.
Im 6'3" and i run 680mm even tho the formula gives me 836mm the narrow bars have three main advantages. 1st its more responsive: i hate bars that take forever to turn. 2nd bar clearance: im an urban mtb rider and in the street going in through tight spaces without your bar ends getting catched by stuff can mean saving your teeth, it also helps when u have tu go thru doors or load it into cars without a rack. 3.- tricks: barspins, x ups and a couple different tricks can get annoying when the bar keeps getting caught in your shirt.
I’m also 6-3 so I calculated the same bar width, it seems a little rediculous. I used to have 740 stock but I cut them down to 720, feels much better that way.
Great video guys. Really helped me out and opened my eyes. I measured myself per your instructions and have installed a 12° sweep bar on my ride. It’s a noticeable difference not having my wrist kink. However one thing didn’t get discussed that wound up also being critically important to the wrist arm elbow and shoulder pain I was experiencing was grips. Standard round grips were leaving me with a contact void on the outside base of my palm and the flexors in my arm were working overtime trying to grab onto something, causing me a lot of pain and some carpal tunnel issues. Switching to a properly sized winged pair of grips provided a shelf for my palm base to rest on and for my hand and grab a hold of.
I’m a real old dude and was getting numbness in my wrists and hands so got those grips with the palm rest and also raised my bars a fair bit. Completely solved the problem. I also have a worn out left shoulder so will be checking how wide my bars are.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
I don't get why the formula is based on height, what if the person is tall but has narrow shoulders or vice versa? Or if the person has long or shorter arms
Yeah it doesn’t make sense. I’m 194cm tall and my max bar width is supposed to be 853.6mm. I’m currently using 780mm and I’m thinking about making them more narrow
Because it's obviously just a rough estimate, and body height is easy to measure. Much more so than to find the middle of you shoulder joints to measure their distance. Also, while obviously there are different physiques, ROUGHLY shoulder with DOES go with body height. Also, the formula is mentioned give you the MAXIMUM bar width.
I think it generic, if you want specific for your body type you need to use more data, like the shoulder wide size.
COUPLE NOTES: The 4.40 calculation is based on a male of average proportions with an upper arm angle of 20 degrees for optimal shoulder joint health and push/pull strength. This provides an estimated MAX. Going a bit narrower always works and provide more pull strength and more range of motion. If you are over 6'2 or 188cm run whatever you like as long as it feels good. Females of average proportions may find more accuracy using a multiplier of 4.26
Lee recommends to go 5% less in his Pinkbike article, which dates back to 2018. Is this recommendation still applicable? Thanks!
I was actually wondering if different skeletal structure and size (shoulder bone to shoulder bone) also play a role to the bar width. For example, I measure 22 inches shoulder to shoulder, which is also the distance from the middle of one palm to the other if I set my arms by my side.
Terrific, thanks for the female ratio. We’ve been trying to figure out where to cut my wife’s bars. She’s 5' and developing a spine hunch.
As a female rider, I do appreciate that you include recommendations for females here in the comments, but it would be really awesome if you could include this in your videos as well! If all these details are so critical to successful riding, please don't treat women as secondary or an after thought. Most mtb content defaults to males and it is challenging to figure out if it applies the same to women given our different body proportions. Where I ride it is 50/50 males/females on the trail, so please include everyone! Anyway, really appreciate the content!!
Didn't lee learn his lesson about arbitrary fudge factors to height with the RAD measurements? Also, it wouldn't even be 4.4, just use 0.44 so you don't even need to think about units. Looking forward to the video in a couple of years when he admits again he was thinking about it all wrong, but we should believe him now.
Use a plumbers pipe cutting tool. They are cheap and you get a nice cut every time.
Just not for carbon....
@@thesaltlick4057 Ok if it's done gently.
@@thesaltlick4057 If you use it for Carbon bars you will be very disappointed with the result.
For "carbon", it all depends on which process was used. And you can change absolutely every little aspect of a composite item production to your exact liking.
I had the chance to do a report at Look factory (frames, pedals, outer soles, aero handlebars, etc.), and those folks confirmed it : "We can make frames a thousand different ways, composite ends up being what you want... there's no obligation.".
So... unless you know exactly how this composite tube was made, just don't cut it. Don't. No !
Or ask the factory, and most times they'll reply : "Don't... the end tips participate into the structural properties of your handlebar. If you cut them, you risk weakening... then breaking, possibly.".
Unless specific inserts were used, and you receive the OK to shorten them.
Using a pipe tool gives the edge a bevel which CAN punch through your bar end in a severe accident and cause major damage. Just beware of that. At the bike shop we always use a hacksaw and a the park tool SG 7.2.
Came from a hardtail with narrow bars, never had any aches, bought a new bike a few months back with 780mm bars. For the first month of riding I had wrist ache and my inner thumbs felt "Bruised" and I would subconsciously move my hands right to the inside of the grip and I wouldn't realise until I went to change gear and had to move my hand. Came across this vid, did the formulae, I'm only 5' 6"-ish and my width came to 740mm, cut the bars down to that, and even though it's literally only an inch off each end, it's became a lot more comfortable to ride, I'm more upright, cornering feels better and I feel more in control at lower speeds...Thanx Guys.
YOU GUYS ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING THIS KIND OF CONTENT!!
My MTB has changed my life, your information has changed my riding!! Keep the sizing stuff coming please and thank you!
Bikes are magical.
This is great. I have been riding 780 for a while now. I am 6.1 with quite a long arm reach and wide shoulders, so I followed the trend and went with the widest bar I could find. I have been feeling like my bike is not working properly, balance was way off whenever I got air time. Cornering was real sketchy. Something always felt off. I never questioned my bar length, and kept trying other things. I thought it was just me trying to get back into mtbing at 49 years of age, and kept pushing myself to just get it right. Funny thing happened the other day. When I first got my bike about a year ago, I had a pair of bars that I cut down from 800. I was trying to get them to 760, but I messed up and cut them to 740. So I shelved them as rubbish, and bought another set, 780, that I kept. The other day I thought, lets try swapping the 780's for my old 740's. I swapped them out, and rotated them a bit more forward than I would normally run. What a difference!! I cannot believe how good the shorter bars feel now! Bike feels way lighter and poppier. More balance in the air. I feel so much more confident in cornering as well. Such a small change but such a massive difference. Loving my new setup!
Good comment.
Upgraded my XC mtb and noticed handle bar width was 780 mm, up from 700 mm on previous bike. As a lifetime time weightlifter, the closer grip feels more comfortable and stable, and from experience, open shoulders lead to injuries. I cut the bar to 720 mm. Feels great!
My XC MTB came with 680mm and I went and put on some 800mm today and it was not comfortable at all. It lost its responsiveness.
Did you notice the same thing?
How tall are you?
Alex and Lee are the best MTB RUclips creators right now. Your videos have translated into more JOY for me on my bike! Thank you!
Thank YOU!!!
Thank you! I’ve been doing my own thing for decades. Forget the trends, do what’s best for your body mechanics.
These videos are really great! I think i have searched 10's of times for information on determining handlebar width and now i came across this by chance through one of your other videos. I'm glad i did. Great video and great channel!
Your formula is accurate for me. I am running 760 but unconsciously moving my hands inwards. I am 168x4.4=739.2 but i think i'll leave it there. I will adjust my brake lever inwards. Always great content! Keep it up! Thank you.
This with the bike sizing video are absolute gems. I appreciate that the focus is ensuring the bike is set up according to the biomechanics of the rider. For cutting bars, pipe cutters from a hardware store are a good option too.
I recently got a my first FS bike and had an anxiety inducing moment when I nervously went to see if it was properly sized (used the lying on my back method). It was (direct-to-consumer, they had me submit multiple body measurements when ordering).
Now I'm interested in handle bar width as well. I like the suggestion of narrowing the grips and brakes/shifter and then cutting. Would be easy to do on trail with a multi-tool as well.
Keep up the great content. Seriously, when are we going to get a Patreon? You guys are absolutely killing it.
I'm working on the Patreon!!
Appreciate you!!! I don't think I will do one. Buy a shirt perhaps? Lee will be doing a Patreon for himself.
You two are really providing great content based on new lines of thinking and science. I really enjoy watching and learning from your videos. Old dogs can learn new tricks (skills)
Our pleasure!
This channel deserves all the subscribers in the world. Such a joy to watch. I'll be 40 this year and just got myself a nukeproof scout 290 comp and I'm recently getting back into trail riding. The 800mm bars feel ok (I'm 177 cm) but I struggle to control the bike fully. I am going to move my controls and make adjustments until I see what's best. Thanks for all the info you guys are putting out there.
You bet. We love our subs!!! We got the best ones. : )
Thank you for your videos. they are very educational.
I'm 47 yrs old. and I ride the trails about 2X a month ( family and Dad stuff) I'm very exited to try your tutorials on all of this .
I get exited and go outside about 9pm and just try the things you put on RUclips. Thank you. Working on my bunny hop and I'm trying the Wheelie how to video.
That is awesome!
I was watching this between sets of working out, and decided to measure my estimated bar width (792) compared to my bench press and military press grips. Appropriately enough, it landed right in the middle. Another thing for shoulder health I think about is sometimes I see "attack" positions that have the elbows up so high that the shoulder starts getting into internal rotation, which can cause all sorts of problems. Be kind to your rotator cuffs, they're little and wimpy, but essential.
I got 792mm also but I’m running 780mm bars and they feel good.
Roadie just picking up the MTB thing, this is by far my favorite channel! Thanks for all you guys do, keep it going!!!
Welcome to the dirt!!
I watched this several times - it is a great video. After some experiments I left my LEVO sl at 760 (my calculated for 180 cm is 790) but then I started looking at my xc bike I have for 10 years. It has 690 bars but it has at least 30 mm longer stem compared to levo and still feels good after all the experiments. For sure this video helps in optimizing the bars and knowing why. Thanks
gotta tell ya guys... i took this advice and cut my bars down. my izzo came w/ 760's. which is acceptable for a M frame. at 66" or 167.64cm i came up with 737mm bars. i rounded up to 740mm. just that little cut w/ an 8° sweep made a lot of difference. mainly, less fatigue and cramping in my hands.
now both my bikes are running 740's and it feels pretty solid. thanks again!
Right on!
I'm glad to see thought put into this. Too many reviews are of the "super-wide for super-ride, dude!" variety, and they just sound like ads to buy new stuff that they KNOW will need to be replaced at some point. This applies to all kinds of components -- it used to be "you gotta go super narrow rims" then "you gotta go super wide rims". Same for tire pressure. Same for number of gears. Same for ultra-small cassettes that wore out, but then we got over that nonsense only to get pushed back into it with 1x setups. And so it continues...
Much of it is MTB fashion for sure. I'm glad bars are available in wider sizes than years past but it's funny the way riders are focused on width and pushups and willing to sacrifice pull/hops/range of motion. I think it's because the number one fear is OTB and they don't realize most OTBs happen right after a mistimed push!!
I am 6' 2" and did the push up method years ago and came up with 740. I have been riding 740 ever since and love it.
Great!
You wound up in a good spot!!
Watching this today.. three years later. So refreshing to see someone say "hey it's all we knew at the time and its no longer the best way". cool human beings! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
i'm 6 5 (194cm) and have gone down to 770 in the last few years. it's perfect. optimum control, optimum comfort.
6'5" is just over 195cm - I hate it when people take 1cm off my height!
Interesting, since formula from this video suggests your max is 860mm
Yep, see, you prove my point! - Height in CM x 4.00000000
similar: 6'3 here and i do have 800 and im thinking of 780mm to test out. 800 feels "apey" to me
@@tehalexy 6'3, 275lbs, 820mm, feels beautiful.
Thanks guys, subbed, glad I found you. I was riding an older "all mountain" bike and I felt like a more competent rider, and rides were more enjoyable then. The bars on that bike had 760mm. I have upgraded to a new larger bike and haven't found riding as exciting and just realised now, upon measuring, that is is 790mm. I recently purchased a hardtail for different riding and for some reason I prefer riding that bike, that is with a 695mm bar. Now I know geometry is going to be a variable as well, but as someone who is 168, it sounds like I will cutting my bars. I'll go down from 790mm to 760 as a starting point and see how we go from there. Thanks again!
Big big thank you guys, I am just seeking for changing my old 620mm bar, and I am 181cm tall so... R.A.D was incredible and now perfect video at right moment with greatest people?, Man..., F*..ing awesome, regards from Spain
Thanks Jesus!!
Hey Jesus, you may also consider to reduce the stem length. Which gives you a more direct control of the bike, which comes with the cost that it gets more flutter on gravel. Depends on your preferences
"handlebars should be scaled to your body" Exactly right.
Thank you, I’m 5’9” and was riding with 800mm bars. After watching this video I cut them down to 770mm. It feels so much more comfortable to ride now.
Great to hear!
Did u measure your handle bars before you cut?
I'm 5-9 as well and my Cannondale Scalpel came with 680mm and today I put on 800 to test and it felt very uncomfortable and the bike lost its responsiveness. It will have to cut them for sure. The formula shows 770. I will start from there...
What was the outcome on your bars?
@@Dopeassbikevids no I did not. They were pre marked at specific lengths so I trusted the measurements on them
@@Whatsthe_411 770 feels good and my arms don’t get sore anymore so I stayed at that width.
Yes!!! Thank you. My bar is 30 inches and I’m 5’5 causing so much strain on on my shoulders and rotator cuffs. Coming from road biking, this sucked. I just bought 23 inch bar. Looking forward to it. Thanks for the video, still applicable 2 years later!
Thank you guys. My last bike came with 800mm bars. I had never used such wide bars but wanted to try them out. They felt ok just riding around the neighbourhood but as soon as I got on the trail I hated them. I left them alone to see if I would get used to them. A few days later I went to a trail system about 40 mins away and on one of the trails I ride often I got stuck twice trying to ride through the trees. I went back to the car and cut them down. I brought a hack saw just in case. No more knuckle dragging.
Glad I found this channel. This is exactly my thought - the bars are ridiculously long these days. First thing when I bought a bike is cut the bar. I won't even ride with the length it comes with.
Dead on once again. Next up, you should do a segment on stack height
I’d like to see that paired with this video
I'm in on that too! I'd love to hear their take on that.
I still use this video over and over again. Still never saw anything more relevant so far. Thumbs up forever
Really enjoying your work. You are doing a great job presenting a lot of the same topics I see on other channels. But describing them in different ways that is truly letting me learn more about my riding.
Appreciate that! We're trying to put more "why" in the mix. : )
Thank you! Totally makes sense. I had wide bars, hurt my shoulders. I went down to 680mm, rode for a month, too twitchy. Moved to 700mm... Perfect fit. Now I know, from your formula. My max is 737.6 700mm comfortable! Thank you!
One thing worth considering and a great addition to your formula would be where TOO NARROW starts to happen. I don't suffer from stability but I do find that I get a bit of elbow pain on a bar that isn't adequately wide.
Best description of handlebar width I've seen on YT yet. Super helpful. Thank you!
Great video guys.
Hit 50 this year and I have ordered my first modern mtb (haven't ridden for years). Used to be a personal trainer focusing on rehab and biomechanics, and I switched to pulling/pushing narrow because it doesn't hurt my bad shoulder (better mechanics) I'm also stronger in that position.
My bike will have 800ml bars, so your advice and the calculation is a must for me.
Thank you 🙏🏿🇬🇧🇦🇬
Damn... your channel is my new go to for all things MTB related. Started riding again last year after many years out of the sadel. I am soon 45 and I find your video koncept to suit me perfect. Got a new Kona Process 134 last friday .
A couple of years ago I brought Lee's book Dialed and got my bike setup as close as I could to his recommended dimensions with a different stem and spacers that I had already and a new bar and it all feels great especially when out the saddle and 'hinged' into some trails... so I would advise anyone to try what's in this video and the previous one covering fit. It sort of goes against what magazines and other sources seem to be saying but in all honesty it works... and bar width not being stupid wide is even more crucial when you're 56 like me 👍
I love the vibe these guys generate, and the ease by which they keep interest alive.
But that interest, can result in an addiction to being misled.
Like the sillyness behind the idea that any shorter bar width, is healthier than maximum width .
According to the Alex formula, I'm supposed to need a max width of 80 cm. But I'm fairly sure I've never had bars more than 65 ~ish, being of the baby boomer generation, in England, the choices were very few, compared to recent years.
And now, being ancient and having recently discovered e-bikes, so comfort, is more of an issue, I can't wait to run the risk of wasting 15 quid, just to find out what wide bars can do for me.
Thanks for the advisory formula Alex.
Since pulling is the main power move involving the bars, I like running my bars at 760mm, even though my calculated max is 810. Feels awesome.
I’m in philosophical agreement with this. Too much focus on width and to what end?!!
Bought a bike last year. Really wish I had found this channel before, but luckily it turns out the bike almost fits me perfectly when I bought it... No wonder I like it so much! Probably could use a slights smaller stem to fit my RAD measurement better. Keep up the great work!!
When I've switched to a new set of grips without "outer clamp" (Bontrager XR Trail Comp instead of Lizard Skins Charger), immediately noticed that it feels like I'm riding a wider bar. After a few rides, decided to cut the bars, and get the same "grip distance" as before. It was just 5mm per side, but noticable difference. So I'd also add that you need to take into account what grips you are going to use, as some might get your palms to a different position...
geez ! another awesome video !! bar roll is also one major factor in handlebar fit !! i have been noticing most people who run with high rise bar, say 30mm +, they roll their bar way forward. with 8 or 9 degree backsweep, that overly forwarded bar roll changes the handlebar fit completely
I had had a bit on bar roll in here. I see people with bars rolled forward and the bars up at an angle and I worry about their shoulder joint. I would not want to pull hard at that angle.
I went back from 780mm to 760mm bars as they felt much more comfortable. My hands sit about 15mm in from the ends. I did the calculation = 727mm so absolutely spot on! Lee really does know his stuff!! 👏 👏 👏 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Spot on? 760-12= 745 against 730. We talk about centimeters, so I think 1,5 cm is quite a difference.
@@seik101 Dude did we fail maths at school? Obviously so, as it’s 15mm in PER SIDE!! 15+15=30. Tadaaaaa! 😂😂😂
@@steveindorset true. And yes and no. I failed Not in Mathe particularly, but in school generaly 🤷
@@seik101 then maybe you should double check your maths before posting such a contentious comment? Have a great day buddy. 😉👍🏻
@@steveindorset contentious ? It´s just wrong. I made a mistake. Happens...
I'm 5'9 and run 680s on my trail bike. Love them! In my area there are a lot of tight trails with narrow gaps between trees, the short bars are great for dealing with that.
This immediately went way deeper than I expected. Classical music and math 😳
Hahaha. And you forgot to mention Vitruvian man in the thumbnail. : )
@@JoyOfBike just noticed that. I clicked on the vid before even checking out the thumb 😂
Thx guys! Now...to the garage! To measure ALL the bars! 🤓🤙
@@fasterwheels Cool idea to use your front brake rotor as your profile photo🤘🏻
Just had rotator cuff repair, this was great information to help me ensure my bar is dialed in when I come back.
🙏
My god, you guys are amazing. I'm having trouble fitting my mountainbike and you are helping me on the journey! I'm not there yet but this is a great recourse!
I treat handlebar width as a fit thing. For example I have bikes that have (slightly, by 15 mm) different reach. A wider bar makes me ride more forward. Of course I have different length stems on the bikes.
Also, I ride trails that have very narrow gaps. I tried running an 800 mm wide bar and hit trees and rocks all too often with my bar ends. So, now I have 760 mm wide bar on a bike and a 776 (!) mm bar on another. I have good relaxed body position on both bikes and I can just fit in through most gaps at a reasonable speed.
Great video, as always from you.
Oh yes, not surprisingly your formula puts me to 774,4 mm - so, I guess my gut feeling was pretty good.
Lee: "He's always wondered why I'm so frickin strong"
Alex: "I've never wondered that once"
LOL
I've wondered a lot of things about Lee but that wasn't one. But that's not to say he isn't strong. Pretty much a beast. : )
That was funny.
Been riding mountain bikes DH,CC for many years. I used to perseverate about all kinds of handwringing set up details including the one mentioned in this Video, which is well done by the way.
All that changed a few years back when i added enduro motorcycle riding to my mix of activities. The perspective gained from riding a machine that has REAL forces to deal with revealed to me how silly it is get so hung up on minutia over a 20-30lb machine that is mostly suspended by your legs and takes comparatively little physical input to pilot.
Some truth to this. I started in moto and got my pro card in the early 80s. The moto should make you better on your bike too. More comfortable a speed.
The other benefits to narrower handlebars are that you can squeeze between trees better on the trail and get your bike into and lay your bike more easily on its side in your hatchback or SUV cargo area.
I have been watching some of your other videos and was blown away by the info in this video. Always wondered why my shoulders were hurting with wider bars and now I know. I can go back to the other video on selecting the correct bar sweep now that I have the formula for correct (starting point for the widest bar I should ride). Thanks for this eye opening info.
Very very interesting. A great video. I'm probably too wide as I'm getting twinges in my shoulders, will be checking bar width out this weekend.
Why did I never think about just moving the controls first? I've ruined many handlebars needlessly. Thanks again!! Keep up the great work!!
It’s a great hack!!
Awesome video. I stepped up to 785 about 2 years ago and it feels perfect. But at 203.2cm I should be running 894mm! Lol I'd never make it down the trail running that wide. I can barely squeeze through some trees as it is.
I'm 198cm. What sort of stem have you got? I'm trying to decide if I need to swap mine out. I ride a Whyte Hardtail
65mm length, but recently changed to 60mm riser bar. The riser bar has been game changing for me to get my fit right
@@sixate I just put a Renthal 40mm rise bar. They are 800mm. Feels much better. But I feel I need to do one more tweek
I'm 195. My brand new Trek EX8 XL has 780mm bars and I've been getting wrist pain, so considering reducing 10mm or so. The sizing factor started here makes my ideal size 860mm?
Best handle bar formula video that I have seen. I tried moving my gadgets around on the handle bars but they must have been placed by some kind of prior research because every way I tried was an epic failure, so I had to go back to the original configuration. But thats why I'm researching handle bars. Thanks.
My max is 820mm (using the formula) and I have always felt comfortable on 800mm 🤘🏻formula seems legit 🤘🏻
Yep same here formula says 800 and I like to run 780
@@brandonreimer184 awesome👌🏻
Think about it...2 people same height=same bar width, right.... wrong. They could have totally different shoulder width and arm length, and the reach and ETT on their bike differ.
The formula is, with any common sense, utter nonsense.
I'm loving your work guys. I have been making good progress on my hops. Which I used to think were unbelievably complicated, until you put me right. After watching your RAD videos and this handle bar video. I now know why I find hops easier with my older shorter reach and narrower handlebar bike.
Thanks Alex, this is perfect(kind of like your frame sizing video saved my butt) timing! I just received my new carbon bars when this video came out, I was assuming I would be at 780, but after doing the calculations and testing I’m at 760 and living it!! Thanks again for all you do!!!
These are so informational, and funny and well produced all in one package. I always seem to gravitate to these, and think "why dont I watch more of these". Big up!
Holy hell, i'm 5'7" and ride 780mm. Time to work my way down, new to riding but not new to shoulder surgery. Thanks guys!
5' 7.5", running 720 mm bars. Started out at 740. Will probably go down to 710 due to rotator cuff injuries.
Some real benefits to narrower are stronger and FASTER pull. And more range of motion. Bring on the table tops!!
@@JoyOfBike i hope so, i'm just learning to jump and am able to clear some sm/med tables! Been working on my row, anti-row :)
Man, I'm also just over 5'7" and switched over to a 45mm stem and 800mm bar last October. Not twitchy enough IMO; resulted in 2 titanium plates, 4 screws and 5 pins in my left wrist later that very same day!
I just got back on the bike last week. Will pull the controls in and try again!
I save lots of mtb videos to my watch later. I watch them all and then delete them from watch later after viewing. Except your videos. I just keep them there for future reference and to share with friends. Your videos are educational and needed!
And btw - you are saving me money. The industry had me thinking my high end 2016 bike was out of date. Originally I thought the reach was too short for modern riding. Now I realize my reach and sizing is perfect. Which my body was telling me all along.
Most recently I have been researching wider bars for a physical issue I am experiencing. Mine are 730 at 5 ft 8 in.
Question. I do have hand numbness. I need to shake out my hands periodically. I notice it appears that the outside edge of my palms have more pressure than the inside edge of my palms on my grips. My bars have 9 degree backsweep. I was thinking if I went slightly wider (760) and a 8 degree backsweep maybe between the slightly wider grip and a bar that is slightly straighter across - the pressure point will be more evenly dispersed across my whole palm? Does the logic work?
Thanks for the great videos.you are absolutely on your way to being the next huge channel.
John,
1) Make sure there's no weight on your hands. Watch our video about body position.
2) Consider bars with even more backsweep. I recommend SQlab bars with 12-16° of backsweep. I use 16s.
There are other factors - riding style and terrain; being able to fit through tight tree sections. I went from 800 to 780 and was better off. Also, besides just height, I find shoulder width is important to consider.
Shoulder width is DEFINITELY important. I'm 5ft but due to playing football (US) I have very broad shoulders.
I would imagine shoulder width is THE measurement to base things off of. Perhaps there's some rough correlation between increased height and increased shoulder width, but it's not like we all have the same proportions. Otherwise I wouldn't be so high on the ape-index. :D Also, I'm 6'2" which is 188cm, and I absolutely shouldn't be on 827mm bars. :P
Love the vids, guys... keep em coming! I'd like to see a backsweep/upsweep video like this one as it relates to muscles worked and possible shoulder pain at different angles.
Good idea!
This was really helpful. I've been on 780s for a couple years, and though I'm 6'1", they've always felt a little too wide. Now that you've addressed the long bike and wide handlebars trends and how they impact riding and fit, how about head angle? It feels like we're being told that slacker is always better, but I'm skeptical, especially because of the narrow, twisty, undulating trails in my area.
We'll probably get into that. But slacker isn't better -- it's different. It behooves us to pick bikes that fit our bodies, riding styles and terrain.
Slacker is ALWAYS better!!! (That was my April fools joke for this year)
I read Lee's book with Brian Lopes maybe 15 years ago and loved it. Just found him again while looking for info on proper bar width.
I've been thinking over that time that bars just keep getting wider. Where is the limit? How wide is too wide? Well, at 800mm on my new Tallboy 4, I've decided this is it. I can't even fit through many tight spots, especially on older trails.
750mm on my 2020 Epic HT was wider than I'd had, but didn't feel TOO wide.
Gonna start with 780mm as per the formula.
Thanks again! 👍
Great content as usual. I've been playing around with bar width recently, and the points you discuss make great sense.
Glad to help!
My new Polygon T8 has wide 790 - 31" bars. My old bike has 630 - -25". What feels right is about 29" - 740. Before buying new bars, I'll likely take off an inch of each side. This video confirms my thoughts. Thank you for the video!
Just a thought, given everyone's body proportions are different, how about any equation based on shoulder width instead since it dictates push / pull comfort. Great content Alex and Lee, cheers!
Also ape index will be different too..
The multiplier assumes average shoulder width, upper arm length and hand width.
There are more detailed ways to assess optimal bar width, especially if you have special proportions.
Learn all the details about bar width (and way more) at www.llbmtb.com. Enjoy a free month with the code JOYOFBIKE.
@@lee_likes_bikes Thanks Lee. btw I have your book Mastering Mountain Bike Skills and smiled when you referenced the pushup test in the video. I'm a fan of your teaching, thanks for the joyofbike trial.
That's what I'm getting at
You are my favourite go to MTBing on RUclips. Many thanks guys you’re Awesome!
Wow, thanks!
Another great video packed with stuff we should know, but don't! I'm personally a little sick of how wide my bars are on my newest bike and based off the formula I'm running at least 20mm too long. I am more used to the handling by now, but at first I had a really tough time with bike control. Now I just dislike how often I come close to clipping the bars on trees and stuff on narrow parts of my local trails.
Intuition and math coming together. Time to make a cut. Measure twice!!
Probably the best video I've ever seen on this subject. Well done!
Hi Guys, How do you get the numbers that you use to calculate R.A.D (2.5) for bike sizing and now 4.4 for bar width? Just curious. I have used the RAD calculation and it works.
I am really curious to see if the bar calculations will work for me. A year ago I changed my bar length from 760 to 780. A few months after I developed headaches after my rides, about 2 hours after riding to be precise. I never thought it could be because of my bar length. I am going to shorten bars and see if it makes a post-ride difference.
Great question. The handlebar calculation is based on average proportions and an upper arm angle of 20 degrees with the hands directly in front of the elbow.
The multiplier assumes average shoulder width, upper arm length and hand width.
There are more detailed ways to assess optimal bar width.
Learn all the details about bar width (and way more) at www.llbmtb.com. Enjoy a free month with the code JOYOFBIKE.
Just bought a new bar and I'm still afraid to cut it down to size until I found your video, that formula makes sense thanks!
Doing such good work boys. Love it
Super helpful. I just got a new bike. After my second ride yesterday my upper traps and back of shoulders were noticeabley sore. But I had zero idea where to begin with proper width. Thanks for the helpful and well explained info.
First!!!!
Edit. Just finished watching. Hands down your videos are all about maximizing fun and optimizing ride. Kudos to you both
Thanks Mike!!!
So Twitchy! Awesome content, editing, info, advice as always! Breaking it down with examples, and from experience. You guys could talk bike philosophy and people would still watch!
SO TWITCHY!!!
Much appreciated! Much more to come.
Scary how well that calculation works. I've been on 720s, 740s and 760s over the past decade, (and up to 820 on demos 😮,) but the calc says my max is a skosh over 780. Sure enough, the 780s I've been running the past few months are the best feeling I've had.
Bend and sweep make a difference as well. Renthal's relatively shallow backsweep feels outstanding, whereas some of these 10 and 12 degree bars, (BMX freestyle is really bad about this,) feel horrible to me.
Yeah dudes, the best in the world DON'T do what you recommend. You just unlocked the Holy Grail. You both deserve to me BILLIONAIRES!!!
the best in the world are probably kids aged 15-25. Once you get older, biomechanical form becomes very important.
183x4.4 is 805. I started with a fatbar at 800 and progressively went down to 760.
Im also 183 and currently riding (XC) with a 690mm bar, I bought a used bike and this bar came into it. I'm looking for a new bar in the past two weeks, I'll go straight to 760 once you said it, I've ridden a friend's bike with a 780mm bar and it felt veeeeeery awkward (due to the lack of twitchiness) but kinda good at the same time (the feeling of riding with my chest open), maybe 760 will work nice for me too
@@danielribas1109 I have a 750 bar with a different rise that I also use.
Best video ever! Don’t follow the trends. Follow your anatomy and riding style.
How bout a bar length formula based on shoulder width ( jacket size)? Also, the sweep angle needs to be part of the formula. If a bar was straight, it could be equal in length to shoulder width, but each degree of sweep allows for a longer bar. This is so dang important! Thanks for the vid!
I am th worldleader &king of kings in all aspect bicycles.
Lol no i dont have videos. I explain it all HERE:
(But people wont buy it, they cant)
Handlebars, bikes ergonomics engineered by Lucifer. He HATES free energy.
95% humans Lucifers kids, tares. They are not humans. They subscribe, perpetuate false reality stupidity in all things. They are cmputer cntrolled hive mind. But they dont know that.
Handlebar must be 29 or 30" 4average adult 5'9"
2 reasons. A front basket HANGING BY STRAPS FROM BARS is how 2transport up2 70lbs.
Bicycles are MADE 2COMMUTE STRAIGHT LINE &CARRY THINGS. PERIOD &safety, stability handling. Those are your parameters. Revolve around those. Period.
Bars wider then shoulders ONLY.
2 reasons.
This forms a stable TRIANGLE required4 stability handling especially once u add weight front basket.
Secondly, wide bars allow u carry wide objects like 5 2x4 wood resting on bars strapped 2waist. U can also carry things on long bars such as 5gallon buckets bar ends. Wide bar DRAMMATICALLY improve stability.
As does LOWERING LOWERING LOWERING thseat.
U must use heaviest ULTRA STRONG STEM.
Bicyclists can not be taught. Bcuz they are pharisees. Know it alls. Regarding seat height. Most humans are NOT HUMANS. They are poisonous cmputer programs.
Seat height.
Lol ypur knees can bend pedaling &efficientcy functions just fine low seat. Lol satan teaches place head 6 feet from pavement, give tiny bars so now u a sky scraper &taller they are thmore easily they fall. Lol. I taught people how 2sit on bike 1980"s. Graeme Obree built bike matching my specs &30 guys broke hour record using my specs.
Lol my seat is slammed down as LOW AS I CAN GET IT. This raises your bars essentially. So u NOT bent over but LOWER TO THGROUND 4ridiculous STABILITY &AERODYNAMICS.
U will realize 1.5 mph at 21mph top speed electric motor as such even tho u upright but head several inch lower..
WIDE BARZ LOW SEAT, SEAT FORWARD, BARS IN CLOSE 2U PERIOD.
Worlds best basic e bike bicycle design is used by me exclusively. This will not see production ¬1 person will ask 2c it in comments. Wide would they? They are pharisee tares. Computer animations. Know it alls.
Fact.
All E bikes are absolutely deploreable contraptions built by Lucifer boys.
All manufacturimg &non humans are controlled by Satans BEAST cmputer. That computer revolves around me as its epicentre arch enemy.
Meanwhile, all thworlds problems can be solved in thgarden. And 4godsakes sell your stable of 230 horses.
I agree. I am quite short but have wide shoulders so the length based formula doesn’t work for me. Another thing I missed was twitchiness can be adressed with a longer handlebar stem.
I have found its Basically Your Inseam ..... is For Me Anyway 😎
@@darrinkulyk9560 for my it's a d1ck length basically
I’m 5’ 9 and I just cut my bars down from 780mm to 740 right before watching this video! I was having too much trouble getting in between the trees in the trails with the 780s… clipped a tree and ate dirt on my last ride! Great video! Just subscribed!
Loving these sizing videos. According to Leetonian calculations, I should be able to go up to an 820. I ride a 720 because I've always preferred narrower bars. Must be my inherent beanpoleishness.
Wow. You are a handlebar unicorn. Consider experimenting with 750-760
@@JoyOfBike Well, the bar I replaced was a 755. Maybe I'm just weird. I'm used to it. Being weird, that is.
@@JasonFoxLCB Weird just means not following the crowd. I'm a fan of that! I ride 680 ish on my BMX!
@@JoyOfBike That's one reason I went into advertising. If only advertising still wanted the weirdos. But I digress. Back to the trails.
@Paul Devassy Exactly. I think some folks like us just prefer edging towards the twitchy side of life. I like small cars, too.
I’m 6’2” and I run 760 as a max. I also don’t run carbon bars as when I did I found them too stiff which caused me rib pain from inflammation caused by the shock increase through my shoulders and back. Even my dirt bike is 760mm. More leverage than you’ll ever need and you can more around on the bike easier because you’re not forced to reach as far as if you have wider bars. Cheers guys!
So we taller than 190 should ride with broomsticks? 😀
Ideally they are carbon fiber or titanium.
@@lee_likes_bikes I recently went from 780 20mm rise to 800 38mm rise and I’m really liking it, but I think if I went 840 like your formula suggests, I’d have to avoid a lot of trails in my area since there are very tight sections 😄
Hahahahahahahaha 🤣😂😂😂
thanks again guys for sharing a simple and explanation on MTB Bar width according to your size. more joy ride to us.
You bet!
is there some reason why almost every handlebar on the market as a 8-9° backsweep bend? That could be a discussion for another video. more sweep= shorter reach, most of the time.
Deity is 9 degree backsweep, Pnw range bar is 10 degree, and renthal bars are 7 degrees. But most are 8 and 5. I feel thats the sweetspot. But I still prefer renthal bars.
That was sick dude ! I stay in some Airbnb's right across the highway from there and will be bringing my new bike next time I come over. Thanks for your video.
Awesome stuff!!! I’ve always believed max wide didn’t make sense. How could it possibly? Oh back up. Ten years ago wide bars were 720 and that was an awesome shift. Now that’s considered narrow and bikes come with 800mm bars and stickers that say “designed for properly wide bars” wtf? I have short people come for lessons and they look like they are spread for a pat down! All that to say, I’m 174cm and have 720mm bars and pretty comfortable. I’ll try slightly wider at some point but I won’t be shamed into keeping them wider if I don’t like it!
This estimates a MAX for shoulder health. Keep with what you have if it's working.
@@JoyOfBike oh absolutely, that’s what I was acknowledging!
This guys are absolutely life saver for me, at 6'7" 255 pounds I followed their formula for sizing the bike and reach and also handlebar witdh and it made all the difference in the world.
So what are you running now? We are same size and I want to upgrade from 680..
@ferg. I got a 800mm handlebar with a 35mm rise and checked my reach utilizing their method of balancing the bike on 2 ladders that's on another one of their videos and worked out great.
Seems others have stumbled across this a bit, most bikes these days come with 780 bars, which is the correct width for someone who is 5'10" by the 4.4 calculation. For anyone over 6 foot even 800s might be too narrow.
I can see the confusion because people seem to want to run as wide as possible. Lee's multiplier gives a maximum. So 800s would not be too narrow.
I'm 6'2 and I cut my bars based on where my hands naturally ended up being while riding. Oddly enough 770 is the sweet spot for me, 780 that extra bar hangs out the side of my hands
I didn't know hight had anything to do with it
Also depends on limb length.
I am 5ft 10 but with a short torso and long limbs. Pushing wide hurts my shoulder and my calculation max is 787.6 but looking at maybe 760, I will play around with it before I cut my bars.
@@styleyK 730mm
Hi I’d jus like to say although I don’t post much but always watch your vids and I totally trust you and what you try to educate on mtb so a massive thank you 🤘🏻
Thank you!!!!
I appreciate that!
I run 800s but I have crazy wide shoulders, buddy of mine is 6"4' and I'm a good 4 inches wide than he is, I feel like shoulder width is more important than your height
The multiplier assumes average shoulder width, upper arm length and hand width.
There are more detailed ways to assess optimal bar width, especially if you have special proportions.
Learn all the details about bar width (and way more) at www.llbmtb.com. Enjoy a free month with the code JOYOFBIKE.
This is nothing surprising if you are 7"
Ya man, my wrists and my forearm/elbows get strained bigtime.
Thanks for all the help-I plan on makin adjustments with sweep and width!! Braaaap!!
I realised I was running 820mm today, I cut down to 780mm which should give me more comfort
Im 6'3" and i run 680mm even tho the formula gives me 836mm the narrow bars have three main advantages.
1st its more responsive: i hate bars that take forever to turn.
2nd bar clearance: im an urban mtb rider and in the street going in through tight spaces without your bar ends getting catched by stuff can mean saving your teeth, it also helps when u have tu go thru doors or load it into cars without a rack.
3.- tricks: barspins, x ups and a couple different tricks can get annoying when the bar keeps getting caught in your shirt.
I’m also 6-3 so I calculated the same bar width, it seems a little rediculous. I used to have 740 stock but I cut them down to 720, feels much better that way.
Great video guys. Really helped me out and opened my eyes. I measured myself per your instructions and have installed a 12° sweep bar on my ride. It’s a noticeable difference not having my wrist kink. However one thing didn’t get discussed that wound up also being critically important to the wrist arm elbow and shoulder pain I was experiencing was grips. Standard round grips were leaving me with a contact void on the outside base of my palm and the flexors in my arm were working overtime trying to grab onto something, causing me a lot of pain and some carpal tunnel issues. Switching to a properly sized winged pair of grips provided a shelf for my palm base to rest on and for my hand and grab a hold of.
I’m a real old dude and was getting numbness in my wrists and hands so got those grips with the palm rest and also raised my bars a fair bit.
Completely solved the problem.
I also have a worn out left shoulder so will be checking how wide my bars are.