Wind & Truth Theorycrafting (feat. Bookborn, 2ToRamble, & SRS)
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- Join me, Bookborn, 2ToRamble, & Spencer Russell Smith as we talk about some of the biggest and best theories for Book 5 of The Stormlight Archive (Wind & Truth), and theory craft a few off our own! Will Moash be redeemed? Will Kaladin die and/or Ascend to Honor? Did Shallan cause the True Desolation? Who will fight in the Contest of Champions, and even more important, who will win? We discuss all this and more in a spoiler-free setting outside of The Stormlight Archive & Warbreaker!
Discussion Topic Timestamps:
Intro - 00:00
Will Moash be redeemed? - 02:23
What is 'Redemption'? - 11:56
Who even cares about Moash? - 15:00
The Contest of Champions - 20:04
To heal a Herald - 30:27
Tangent 1: Expectations for W&T - 39:23
5th Ideals - 42:26
Will Kaladin or Adolin die? - 52:01
Adolin (& Maya) - 54:39
Who WILL die? - 59:59
Who might Ascend to Honor? - 01:01:37
The DEATH of Spren? - 01:04:59
The next BIG reveal? - 01:08:24
The Spiritual Realm - 01:10:54
Richard's Quick PSA - 01:14:16
Tangent 2: The Sunlit Man - 01:14:50
Shallan's Mother & her Final Truth - 01:19:41
Will Hoid speak a Truth? - 01:27:47
Announcements & Outro - 01:29:52
Shallan Theory Write-Up - www.17thshard.com/forums/topi...
Co-host links:
Bookborn - / @bookborn
2ToRamble - / @2toramble
Spencer Russell Smith - / spencersmithauthor & www.spencerrussellsmith.com/
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What is your craziest, spiciest, most WILD theory?
The cognitive and physical realm combine! We know Ishar is trying to bring the cognitive manifestations of spren into the physical realm, and pattern states that spren(cognitive) and humans(physical) are 2 halves.
Pretty sure it is wrong, but sometimes I kinda wonder if Shallan is Chanarach rather than her mother. I am pretty confident in the Shallan’s mom is a herald theory, especially knowing that Taln didn’t break, but on this reread I’m seeing things where I could see Shallan being the herald. Her brothers are definitely real since Mraize kidnaps them, but perhaps Shallan/Chana killed her child and took her place with illusions. We know she is super traumatized and hides everything about her past, is a super unreliable narrator, so maybe she is fabricating all of this due to her herald madness and the influence of the Unmade we know about. Like I said, I think her mom is the herald and Shallan killing her sent her back to Braize, but just little things are popping out on this reread.
@@Panamaniac3D I honestly wouldn’t be surprised, I remember thinking this too before I heard the theory actually. But I believe there was something that contradicts it though I can’t recall what it was.
@@TheSandbox_Officialthere probably is. I bet Sanderson had left things intentionally ambiguous to not nail things down. I know he said he did that for Taravangian taking up Odium’s shard and didn’t decide to do it until he got to Rhythm of War.
Odium's champion is going to be Gavilar. Odium highjacked the burgeoning bond he had to the Stormfather which gives us the Stormfaker and after Szeth killed Gavilar old Rayse kept him round as a cognitive shadow and will bring him back for the contest
What a blast! Thanks so much for having us on - great chatting
One of the best times and conversations I’ve had! Anytime, anywhere, I’m down for Round 2! Thanks again for joining 😁
Something important to remember about the "Shallan's mom being a herald" theory is that Odium through the Everstorm already found a way to circumvent the oathpact and bring his spren back/resurrect the fused. That means that Shallan's mom dying and then giving in before Taln was probably the only possible way they could have gotten Taln back on Roshar, meaning she didn't really start the end of the world, she helped save it.
Ooh I’ll have to look further into that timeline. I’m still a bit iffy on the Fused stuff. But that’s a GREAT twist/reveal regarding that theory! Thanks for sharing
That's true...but remember Taln came back at the end of WoK, while the ever storm did not come about until the end of WoR. It's not much of a time difference, but it's significant enough, I think
@@hubrisnxs2013 We just know that Taln was found then. He could have been wandering around the mountains or something for who knows how long.
For the 5th ideal, look at what Kaladin is striggling with in the story: he has a hard time with knowing that the other side is mostly just normal Singers. All of his exsisting ideals have to do with protection in a universal sense. The more oaths he swears the more likely he is to get stuck between two oaths.
What we see from the Skybreakers seems to indicate that each order is the same. Each oath requires you to have more perspective to then need/be able to swear the next, which in turn creats space for conflict within your oaths. The fifth oath seems to provide a way to tie it together and relieve that pressure while also somehow upping the ante.
Based on those things Kal's 5th oath has to be something about choosing who he does and does not protect, and by extension that there are those he should protect, could protect, and who in protecting he will do more harm, and that it is correct for him to make those decisions.
This prediction would take the series into its darkest moment, but I think that Moash will fail his opportunity to be redeemed, and will then take his own life. My hesitation is that I’m not sure Brando is willing to go that dark, but he already dabbles in suicide as a motif and it very well fits the Kaladin foil aspect.
Hmm there could be something there! Do you think that would inspire Kal further to speak his 5th Ideal, and want to prevent anyone from taking their own life?
@@TheSandbox_Officialthat would be a weird 5th ideal. Maybe if you make it more vague. "I will protect anyone, even from themselves"? Idk
I think there is a chance we see Kelsier attempt to contact Shallan via seon. And since Kalak now has that Seon things will go badly for Kalak.
@@StrawMan1235 oooooh 👀
Fantastic discussion! Loved the theories and y’all’s chemistry! Personally I think the battle will result in a tie but Dalinar will still become Odium’s servant after some trickery.
Thanks man! And yeah I think that has a solid chance of happening, too!
5th ideal is you can’t kill to protect. I think it makes the most sense for Windrunners, kaladin’s arc, and thematically.
The oaths go in order, protect, protect those you hate, accept there are those you can not protect. The next step is that you can not kill anyone, not even to protect. Windrunners protect everyone, even those they hate. It makes sense logically as the fifth oath. Rind runners are soldiers, so swearing not to kill is very difficult for them, especially since they will be put into situations where they need to kill. That is why most will never make it to the fifth oath. It means a tremendous sacrifice. And that is why it works. Not killing doesn’t work in war, it is a grand ideal only those at the top can swear to, and fifth oath radiants are at the point where they are somewhat above the usual rules. It just seems grand and difficult enough for it to make sense.
Next, kaladin’s arc. Kaladin and lirin have been debating for years about killing to protect. It’s honestly THE debate kaladin has had in his head. Surgeon or soldier. Lirin has taught kaladin’s very ideal up till now. Protect(heal), protect those you hate (Sergio a heal anyone and everyone regardless of what they’ve done), accept there are those you can’t protect (callouses). The other lesson lirin has been pounding into kal is that you can’t kill to protect. Kaladin said at the end of row that they are both right, in their own ways. I think this is the case. Kaladin was right to kill as a soldier and as a windrunner who needed to protect, but a fifth ideal Windrunner does not kill. So when he swears that ideal, then that will be right. This is also where kaladin’s seems to be going. He is not a soldier anymore; he has retired as high marshal, so he is actually in the perfect position to swear not to kill. I know a lot of people hate this theory because they hate lirin, but it makes the most sense.
Also, maybe swearing the fifth ideal will give the cohesion serge an upgrade that will be necessary to heal Ishar. It’s been set up as something only kal can do, and as a fifth oath radiant he might be the only one who can. I think having his other serge be the one to save the day would be good since the books have kinda ignored cohesion since kaladin only uses it when his gravitation isn’t working.
That’s so good! Pretty much “I must protect everyone” it sounds like. Such a solid theory staring us all right in the face! Awesome write up, thanks for sharing!
Edit to add: however, this would mean Lirin is right, no? He was always right in this debate if this is the case.
No. He was not right. In an ideal world, you can not kill to protect. But this is not an ideal world. Radiants have to deal will voidbringers and singers who will kill. If Windrunner a did not kill, they could not protect. Windrunner are the protectors, and are the core soldiers. They get their hands dirty fighting to protect. They need to kill, and it is right for a windrunner to kill.
However, a fifth ideal radiant is above that. On the scale of “I am the law” is “I do not kill to protect” or “I protect everyone”. A fifth ideal radiant is above this stuff. Once a windrunner swears his fifth ideal, then it is wrong for them to kill. A fifth ideal radiant LIVES their ideals. So real world stuff do not apply, the most important thing is their oaths.
So they are both right. Kaladin was not wrong to kill. He had sworn to protect, and if he did not kill, he would not have protected. He would instead have effectively been a neutral party who isn’t protecting anyone but himself. But a fifth ideal radiant lives their ideals, and so they must protect everyone.
It makes the most sense. In a way, swearing the fifth oath means you won’t be able to protect the way you once did. You can’t choose sides, you protect everyone. That is why the fourth ideal is to accept there are this you can not protect. It’s to prepare you for the fifth ideal.
The fourth ideal always felt a little off for me, it’s important to acccept you can’t protect everyone, but fourth ideal important? But if swearing the fifth ideals means you can’t protect everyone, then it makes perfect sense why the one before swearing not to kill would be accepting you can’t protect everyone.
I 100% believe this, but most people I talk to hate this theory. But like what else could it be? It’s too perfect!
@@cookiediangelo8511 Yeah man, I think you've struck gold here. I really like it! Will just come down to how Sanderson writes it and uses it for Kaladin's arc and the future Windrunner corps.
This was super fun to listen to! I’m terrible at theories but I know book 5 is going to break me
Glad you enjoyed it! Yeah we’re all slightly terrified 😅
Spiciest theory: Wyndl is Odium's champion. The cultivationspren gets so tired of the BS and decides he's going cultivate the ending of Roshar that he wants.
First of all, how dare you. Second of all, that’s hilarious. 😂
After hanging out with Lift I’d become Odiums champion too 😂
I always knew he was a pesky voidbringer!
Woah woah woah, how dare you! Lift is Roshar’s national treasure!
@@TheSandbox_Official haha I know I know 🙈🙈🙈
Hate to be contrarian haha
Odium: “I’m going to pick a toddler to be my champion, surely Dalinar won’t be able to kill a family member.”
Dalinar: “hold my firemoss.” (Uses his powers to pull the Thrill back up from the ocean) “the blackthorn is back, baby.”
Nooooo poor lil Gav! 😂😂😂
This was so fun! Thank you for having me on!
Of course! Thanks for the great discussion!
Have you all seen Sanderson's writing lectures on RUclips for his BYU class? I remember years ago he talked about giving characters a flaw. Their arc isn't about defeating the flaw but learning to live with it. I think he gave the example of depression and said youndont have the character heal from depression then they are never depressed again, but have them learn how to cope with it. I don't know if WoK was even out yet when this lecture was recorded.
Yes, I remember that now that you say it! Loved those lectures! That’s why I really like the idea of the 5th Ideal just being about coping and learning to value your life and pursue overall health.
Imagine if Odium comes to the contest and says “ready for the cooking battle?” And Dalinar is like WHAT lol
😂😂😂 Rock, we need you!
I honestly think that Moash was mostly sympathetic until RoW. I may be forgetting a key moment or two that might sway me one direction or another but killing Elochar (as much as I love his arc) and generally disliking the alethie aristocracy is pretty epic.
Yeah dude, we’ll see what BrandoSando decides for his future, but it’s a coin flip at this point 🤷♂️
Windrunner 5th ideal: I will decide WHO is worthy of protection (rather than just protecting the 'weak' or 'innocent' as no human is truly innocent)
Dalinar will lost the contest, and become beholden to Odium. But since Odium is now held by a principled man (not a good person but not evil) instead of Rayse, TOdium will one day be redeemed and Dalinar will again become an instrumental figure in the battle against TRUE evil. Dalinar and Taravangian started as friends and they'll end as friends.
Yeah I like the idea that Dalinar & Taravangian will retool Odium for good in the end. All Taravangian has ever wanted was to keep Kharbranth safe and be friends with Dalinar 😅
I love some of your theories. Syl becoming Honor could be great. Also, yes, for Hoid's truth just because I want to read one 😂
❤️ glad your enjoyed them! Do you have any hopefuls for Wind & Truth?
This is my theory: Kaladin fifth ideal will be “I will protect even if I have to kill the ones I love” and then kills Moash! (I know he doesn’t necessarily loves moash but he was like a best friend ¿?)
Hmmmm, it doesn't technically contradict his past oaths, but I'm not so sure about this one. But hey, I won't write it off just yet!
Great video guys! Loved the discussions and theories 😊
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for tuning in
I think for the contest of champions it will be Dalinar vs Gavilar and the duel will be more a debate then a fighting duel
Interesting! I don’t think I’ve ever seen Gavilar be proposed. I’m sure Sando could find a way to bring back his spirit, especially if the Spiritual Realm plays a role in the book!
I think this could be kinda cool to see play out on screen. I don’t think it would be the contest, although that is possible, but I like Dalinar looking at Gavilar after trying to follow what he thought Gavilar wanted only to find out that his brother really wasn’t the same person we thought. Most of the time we thought Gavilar was awesome until we saw the S5 prologue and got in his head.
Referencing prerelease for SP#5 at bottom
I think Todium's comments on interplanetary war is closely related to . . . "the big baddie"/conflict in Lost Metal. So I think that'll get connected to Roshar somehow. And "Todium-to-Roshar" will be similar to the "Taravangian-to-Kharbranth".
SP#5
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I think "War-Tower" light, and "corrupted" spren and singer-human allies will definitely be a part of space-age Roshar, maybe even "standard" for them.
All good thoughts! Excited to see how it all plays out!
I will LEAD others to protect themselves. Also I think there’s a WOB about some people struggling more with the Fourth than the Fifth, so I don’t think it has to be more difficult for everyone.
For instance I think the Third Iseal was a bigger struggle for Teft than it was for Kaladin, and he would have had an easier time with it than Kaladin did based off their personalities.
Yeah I personally think the 5th will be more about leadership as well. Interesting that it might not be as hard, though narratively I see where Bookborn is coming from on that.
I also still like the “I will protect myself”. Goes in line with what Austin said and something I’ve thought for a long time now. You can’t save people if you’re dead. Put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others.
@@TheSandbox_Official I do like the I will protect myself quite a bit though I agree leadership should come into it. Brando also said Kaladin’s turned a corner narratively, so I don’t expect to see as much of an internal struggle as last book. That was peak.
I know Bookborn thinks the Skybreaker Ideals are weird so it’s tough to benchmark, but I personally think it would make sense if every Fifth Ideal involved the knight embodying the ideal to an extent. So for the Windrunners that’s pretty much Honor.
Something that's never happened that I can recall. Is Adolin has never said the oaths. I don't believe we've seen anyone Bonded to a dead blade having ever said the oaths.
I think thats the simple secret to reviving them
it is so funny to hear "normal" fans talking about cosmere magics. As a reader I understood not more than you did, but since watching the 17th-shard podcasts I understand soooo much more about this and now some of this sounds as if youbare truly lost😂 (no offense, as I said, I did not understand more when I read it)
We had a good variety of knowledge in this group (some Cosmere veterans and rookies). But yeah the 17th shard and Coppermind are on another level! Happy to talk more in depth theories here if you’d like!
I needed this
😍😁 glad we could help!
Szeth is on his personal quest which means he is past the Dalinar ideal. This is revealed at the end of ROW
Yeah, that’s where he’s headed in W&T. I think we touch on that later in the discussion.
My theories:
The battle of champions happens in Part 2.
Dalinar ascends to become Honor. A new oath pact is formed.
Kaladin becomes one of the new heralds.
Adolin dies.
I also thought the contest happening mid-way through or even earlier would be such a sneaky and interesting twist. But it does sound like it will be saved for the end. Probably not the very end tho cuz we need closure on arcs and story threads, as well as teases for the future.
All the rest I can see happening, but please no NOT ADOLIN!
Personally i think the contest will be the arc through to the middle of the book at the latest. Theres just so much book there and several of the goals the characters have just cant reasonably be done inside of 10 days. So im expecting some sort of switch up thst makes the contest be resolved early and lets things continue past that.
That’s what I thought might happen until Bookborn claimed otherwise
I don’t know if this is a theory that’s out there or if it’s just me. Moash has pointed to the fact that you can’t kill Kaladin. I think the only way that Kaladin can die is by his own hand or perhaps sacrifice himself. Which I believe is coming in this book.
Man that would be brutal and heartbreaking!
Based on the chapters released, I guess that Wit figures out what Todium's plan is and they win the contest but as soon as they believe they have some respite, Cultivation kills Todium and turns out to be the 'bad' guy with the long con. Maybe she played Honor until he spread himself too thin and died. Convinced the radiants to break their oaths and capture Ba-Ado Mishram which led to the recreance. In some ways, the recreance forced humans to innovate and improve while totally culling the growth of the Parshendi mentally...but at the same time, they got a similar treatment to what she did to Dalinar by wiping away the memory of his wife. In this case, their entire sense of self got wiped off and now, that they have their minds back, most of the once war-focused Parshendi would rather live a peaceful life and not continue the cycle of desolations that their ancestors were stuck in. I think she chose Taravangian as Odium because she was at an impasse with Rayse...her goal might be to prune the never-bending or evolving shards and improve them by combining them all. We know that Honor + Odium = War, but what is War + Cultivation?
I don’t think we know Honor + Odium = War. We only know that their lights combined create Warlight.
But as for your theory, I can definitely see Cultivation turning and doing a long con if the Contest is middle of the book. Otherwise, I think we’ll have to wait a few more books.
Great theory tho. And awesome write up!
Oh I am okay with this theory.
Spoilers for all Mistborn
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If Cultivation actually did this, I’d be more okay with Harmony/Sazed/possible Discord somehow destroying her and adding the Cultivation intent to the list which I think would actually make Sazed more easily balance the Ruin and Preservation intents.
Theory.
Dalinar lose and forced to break bond which leaves the stormfather open. As he is the cognitive shadow of honor it will be a big sliver to pick up. I think that while in shinovar kaladin will grab the remaining honor blades aka slivers of honor and bring them back. I think between the blades which are self awar slivers and the stormfather he will ascend to honor. Dalinar will become a fused anlld lose but kaladin will pick up honor. Aka bittersweet ending.
You heard it here 1st
Kaladins arc is coming to an end bookborn. Its time to go. In secret project 4, sigzil thinks he sees kaladin and that would only he possible under certain circumstances to allow a crazy long life considering the fact of how far in the future that book took place.
Solid theories imo. I will say that that Sig was going through something and seeing a ghost of someone he used to look up to is also a reasonable explanation.
The loophole is that if either party breaks any of their terms, the contract is void - I think. So Todium (which is indeed a horrible fandom name) will manipulate Dalinar into breaking it in some way.
I can definitely see that happening. But I don’t really see the point in Odium manipulating Dalinar to break it, given that Odium breaking it results in the same outcome.
On the Spiritual Realm I’m guessing you guys didn’t read the pre-release chapters? 😂
Cause SPOILERS:
We are going to the Spiritual Realm, it is a place, and it sounds very interesting. Time runs backward and all that.
Haha yeah I mentioned at the beginning that we were avoiding those chapters to avoid spoilers. Luckily, I’ve read them tho 😅
More of this.
It's coming, good sir!
There won’t be breath resurrection because there is not enough setting up breath in Stormlight
I think it’s a possibility if Sanderson truly wants to. But I’m also not against him saving it for the back half.
However he has admitted that “the gloves are off”. And after many books within the series utilizing these characters such as Vasher, Vivenna, & Nightblood, it’s certainly not off the table.
There were people saying he couldn’t use Nightblood to kill Odium/Rayse ahead of Rhythm of War, yet here we are.
My crackpot theory is Kaladins 5th ideal will be come along with the secrets of the Recreance and be like "i will protect others from us/me"
Ooh interesting. Almost like “I’ll only fight if I have to” sort of thing?
If the theorised Kaladin/Syl relationship happens I’m gonna cry and ask for a refund 😭😅
Hahaha but what KIND of relationship? 😅
@@TheSandbox_Official some people think they should be romantically linked and I just can’t get behind it
Oh god no!
I cared about Szeth more than Elhokar.
Both such great characters given the roles they serve, but I agree with you here. Looking forward to this next book for more of his POV!
@@TheSandbox_Official 🙂🙂🙂
More views than subs. Damn.
Haha it’s a welcomed rarity when it happens! Thanks for watching, and love your profile pic! Perrin’s the best!
Comparing Dalinar to Moash is nonsense. Dalinar was an awful person, we all know that but he never intentionally killed a friend or ally. He even hates the idea of killing Gavilar. But on the other hand Moash tried to kill Kaladin (his best friend) and then Teft (his other freaking best friend) 🙃
Hmmm Moash had always felt conflicted though, up until he gave away his emotions to Odium. So I can see that argument still holding water, personally.
I'm sorry @bookborn; but what??? You think Dalinar can be redeemed and his worst crime is burning his wife? He locked the entire city and burned it to the ground with everyone inside. Knowingly. That his wife also died was a minor accidental side effect. There ain't no coming back from that.
You don’t think he’s been redeemed already? He’s definitely working on it and becoming a better man
He destroyed an entire city and all the people inside and he went to 'the old magic' to forget - his wife. He's never once expressed regret over killing all those people because he was mad that their lord outsmarted him. What's redemptive about that?
@@mndrew1the funny thing is: for most people dalinar had redemption. But for some, he had not. That is super cool and exciting because the fandom is reacting like a society would. Some people will give you a second chance, some never will. You are the first peerson I meet that does not feel like Dalinar has been redeemed, but I know there are more people with that opinion out there.
What is this todium nonsense, it is taravodium, nobody does say todium
😂😂😂 on Reddit they call him T’Odium
@@TheSandbox_Official wtf is wrong with people
@@Degrad21 😂😂😂
Moash did nothing wrong. Kaladin changed from dark eye to light eye while Moash kept loyalty intact.
There are easier ways to put a target on your back, but this is still one of them...😂😂😂
@@TheSandbox_Official Lol, Let me elaborate-
I think Kaladin forgot about the discrimination after his elevation. He fights internally about his identity but the way he doesn't fight for the ordinary Dark Eyes's rights is what I care about. At least Moash didn't change his opinion because he had some good experience with few light eyes.
@@IndiaTides Yeah I think we've seen him struggle with his internal dialogue regarding this change of "race" ("class"?), but not enough to pursue change. Hoping we can see more of that ideology later on in the series!
He tried to kill both Kaladin and TEFT!! Both friends of him.
Just gotta point out. Odium's nature is really just passion. Kaladin's struggle has always been around him caring too much. Kaladin taking up Odium sounds bad for a back half element buuuut not if Syl is Honor and they are able to join together like Ruin and Preservation. Honor + Odium = Justice? Plus a way to do Syladin without being too weird.
Odium is an actual word and it’s not JUST passion, but I do see him becoming Passion later on as a very realistic option! And yes, I love the Justice (or Judgment) theory! But I could see it requiring Cultivation as well.