*UPDATE* Wizards reversed this change for Neheb, 3 hours after I posted this video.
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- UPDATE Wizards reversed this change for Neheb and a handful of other cards, 3 hours after I posted this video.
Precombat and Postcombat main phases are being changed, and while small, this actually impacts a number of cards...
Thanks for watching!
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They just announced on twitter that Neheb will keep the old wording and will function the same as before ;)
What twitter account?
@@MCzag274 Wotc_Matt
@@MCzag274 Matt Tabak @Wotc_Matt
@@MCzag274 Matt Tabak(WotC_Matt).
lol just came here to say the same thing.
"At the beggining of each of your main phases beyond the first, ..." there you go.
Exactly what I was thinking.
This is all the design space that will exist. They're never going to refer to "the nth main phase" on a card because it requires a gameplay situation to exist that requires specific deck construction. MAYBE in a commander deck that includes infinite combat steps as a design goal (and they generally don't build commander decks that do infinite anythings) but definitely not in a mainline set.
I think the clarification is to prevent newer players from believing that if they didn't attack (combat) the cards that specified "postcombat" wouldn't trigger.
WotC could also choose to errata the cards like Neheb to a wording like "At the beginning of your main phase, if it is not your first main phase,..." to preserve their current functionality.
exactly why would they errata nerf these cards if it's just as easy to reword them like "at the beginning of your second and each subsequent main phase - do X, Y and X"
@@d-m-n They're not so much errata nerfing them as making them operate under the new rules the way they were designed. Infinite combat steps wasn't realistically possible with Neheb as he was designed OUTSIDE of formats like commander that enable him to operate with cards he wasn't designed to operate with. They're just making him operate in eternal formats the way he was designed rather than the way he ended up working as a result of less specific rules.
That said, it's also a change they didn't really need to make. "Enters" instead of "Enters the battlefield" is much more of a significant reduction in letters than "second main phase" vs "postcombat main phase". 6 vs 22 compared to 17 vs 21.
I mean forncing those abilities to trigger just once per turn, instead of once per main phase after the combact, would just be healthier for the game
I think they fully expect releases from 2023/4/5+ to be onboarding a lot of new players, so the language simplification is the most likely cause
That's an interesting thought. You could very well be right.
Almost certainly, since "First/Second Main Phase" is used in magic's most direct competitor Yu-Gi-Oh, as well as a handful of other TCGs. Any amount of transferable knowledge is a benefit to lowering Magic's barrier of entry.
(Pokemon does not use this because pokemon only ever has one main phase as far as I'm aware; after combat, the turn immediately ends.)
Their evidence that this will work is? Ok, say Bloomburrow sucks in a bunch of younger player and/or their parents. What's the following main set after this one? Duskmourn house of horrors, with a theme of, well let's just quote WotC themselves, "In this plane-enveloping House, evil manifests Nightmares and Glitch Ghosts, sends Razorkin into a frenzy, and turns toys and shadows lethal. Come play with us - if you dare."
Basically Halloween and cheesy 80's-90's slasher stuff, or more likely, Mascot Horror. A rather big 180 from cute animals fighting with the power of friendship or something. What exactly is the Venn diagram of kids/parents who like both those things? It can't be that massive, that Magic needs to reinvent itself.
@@dannybeane2069 who said anything about kids? Just new players, most likely with enough Stranger Things type 80s synth horror exposure to get the vibe
@@dannybeane2069 I haven't seen anything from Duskmourn but "Glitch Ghosts" already makes me think of Mascot Horror merch for children.
"Fan favorite" is certainly one way to describe Neheb. At least in my LGS, the Neheb decks are the degenerate ones everyone hates.
They could end up leaving post-combat main phase and just adding a rule defining 2nd, 3rd, ect as post-combat. That would allow the older cards to continue to work while opening design space for powerful post-combat effects to be made while limiting them to once per turn, or effects that only trigger after so many extra combats.
This, likeeee I really dont wanna have a dice now to track how many combats I've taken like its storm
Really enjoyed the early access stream :)
I think they should errata all instances of "post combat main phase" on existing cards to "main phase other than your first" and call it a day.
Megatron might get erratad to only count the first main phase and the preceding combat, but that has its own headaches.
Wouldn't it be possible for oracle charge to "second or later main phase"?
They could also make it "At the beginning OF EACH of your postcombat..."
or change it to "at the beginning of each of your postcombat main phases"
But post combat seems to go as a term if I did understand that correctly
If this was a move to free up design space, they could’ve kept the old terms and simply added the new terms. Cards that say “precombat” refer to any main phase(s) that happen before you enter combat during this turn and cards that say “postcombat” refer to any main phases that happen after you’ve entered combat during this turn, while cards that say “Nth main phase” refer to that specific main phase regardless of when you entered combat. This allows the possibility to add additional main phases before combat(which would only serve to create additional triggers for precombat main phase effects similar to how additional upkeep phases mean additional triggers for those cards, as well as specifying at what main phase a trigger will occur in AND allows for something to trigger in multiple main phases like the current postcombat triggers do…
The current system of pre/post combat main phase does not close the design space from being able to implement Nth main phase triggers, nor does the Nth main phase system need to close off the design space of pre/post combat. Neither version of the phase system excludes the other from functioning. If this was truly meant to open the design space, they wouldn’t have made it a replacement and simply made it an add on. Similar to how they can add “once per turn” to activated and triggered abilities without having to change the rules to state that abilities can only be activated or triggered once per turn.
why is the current itteration design limiting ? you could still make a card with the text "3rd main phase" or something like this in the current setup
The good news is that Neheb and commanders like it are now less likely to become lightning rods for removal.
Phase Walk {1}{U}
Instant
You take a main phase after this phase.
If you wanted to keep Neheb and all the other "post combat main phase" rules the same, they just need to be errata'd to "non-first main phase".
This would keep them templating in tact and allow for unlimited combos to continue to live.
"at the beginning of your mainphase, if it's not your first" would save neheb without adding too many words
unless blumborrow's update of rules specifically says that the new wording replaces the past rulings, neheb and other cards will still function as usual
Maybe I am stupid, but isn't there an easy fix for the old cards to make them work as intended? Just write something like "at the beginning of each mainphase beyond the first" instead of "second mainphase" as the errata.
That's a lot of text real-estate instead of using second 'mainphase'.
They may not want the old cards to work the way they did before this change.
Yeah but like screw these cards I guess.
They tend to not care. e.g. The Sixth Edition rules changes, which is probably where the pre/post combat main phase thing came from. Originally you only had one main phase and combat is something you did during it.
@@Welverin the 6th edition rule change were over 20 years ago.
I get it from a limited and design PoV to expand wording for new mechanics in the future. From a play PoV keeping up with how many main phases there have been in addition to storm count, threshold, hellbent, if someone has delved, who's the monarch, who has ventured into dungeons and how far, how many creatures are in a party, has anyone acended and more will be gloriously confusing for commander people. Good luck.
For the old cards "at the beginning of ANY postcombat main phase." would keep them functional. It would be a shame if they errata-nerf these cards considering things like bear-umbra and aggravated assault or forsaken monument and basalt monolith would still work to do silly things. There's enough broken combos, no need to mess with these.
this wording is so much better
Isnt any main phase after the combat a post combat main phase?
Great now they can fit 872 more abilities on two to cast 8/8's
Can't wait for Nicol Bolas to come back so that the Second Sun from Amonkhet can finish approaching and give us a Wincon for the Seventh Main phase. (this is a joke I honestly have no idea if Nicol Bolas still exists in the lore or if he was fully ended by Ugin and the gang after War of the Spark)
Bolas was just sealed away and his spark was taken. Wizards wouldn't commit to doing away with him entirely. I'm sure he will be back in some way.
@@StarkEpiphany incoming Ugin and Bolas, Heralds of Concession
Bolas was sealed away in his prison realm during War of the Spark. He lost his spark.
That prison was opened when the phyrexians attempted the dumbest thing ever by invading the multiverse all at once.
He will regain his spark in some way or another and attempt some schemes again.
@masterthnag105 Hmm... Now that I think about that, I do wonder where all the sparks of the planswalkers that lost them during the invasion might go....
@@StarkEpiphany I "think" they just disappear when destroyed. Kind of like spent fuel. I wonder if conservation of energy/mass applies to them meaning they still exist, just in a different form.
I wonder if they could say something like "at the beginning of each main phase after your first" or something to save Neheb etc. If they cared to
I don't get why they wouldn't errata this to have its prior functionality.
Because they didn't want them to have their prior functionality.
@@ToxicAtom Wizards typically avoids functional errata like the plague is the thing.
@@ToxicAtom they did, they even said the functionality isnt actually changing
Was the music from perfect dark or metroid? I herd it before. Don't remember where. Anyway. I kinda don't like this rule change. It's making this more complicated for newer players tbh.
There it is. The most roundabout way to retroactively add "This ability triggers only once per turn".
If I got like 4 lightining runners attacking and assuming none die between combat phases, can it still go unlimited?
pretty sure this was already posted but wouldn't the easiest errata b "at the beginning of your next non first main phase" to just keep the card the same? even tho its a bit awkward of a sentence
Honestly if someone pulls up to a table, id consider main 2 and postcombat main the same thing.
Isn’t any phase after a combat phase a post combat main phase?
GOOD NEWS THEY COMFIRMED THAT THEY ARE GONNA KEEP THEM AS THEY ARE. REJOICE EVERYONE
Supposedly, there will be eratas to put neheb and friends back to how they used to work.
So what is the status today ? I still see him erratad on the oracle...
I've asked for an update from the Wizards team. As soon as I get confirmation, I'll post an update.
@@attackoncardboard so thats it he is ded ? Now i have to transform into an Etali deck
@@MrLeMacon no idea what the update is yet, but they said they'll be reverting for Neheb.
While this definitely clears up a few letters of space on a card, it also would be quite a headache to keep track of your main phases if they had effects that would care about the 5th, 7th or whatever number main phase your on. So I kinda doubt they'd ever make such a card, because for newer players in particular, I think it is easier to wrap their head around "every main phase after combat is a post-combat main phase" rather than "keep count on how many main phases your opponents has had, because they could win the game if they get a 7th"
Approach of the seventh sun:
When you play this card, if it is your seventh main phase you win the game. Otherwise put this card into your library seventh from the top and you take an additional main phase
😅 exactly @@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle
Coming from yugioh, this is a nice change.
I can now be justified in calling them Main phase 1 and Main phase 2.
It'll still be a bit odd referring to it as Main phase 3 and onward, but I personally don't think I'll play any decks that will do any of that stuff though.
so will they mess with phases in the future?
All they need to do is errata it to:
After each of your combat phases....
"At the beginning of each main second main phase and main phase after, add one res mana for each life your opponents have lost this turn." Is the old way?
The new way is "At the beginning of your second main phase, add one red mana for each 1 life your opponents have lost this turn."
So no other main phases subsequent to the second matter for Neheb now?
Considering I JUST scooped a Neheb for my Minotaur Deck...I'm a little salty. 😂 But I'm looking forward to all the great cards coming down the horn. Yeah, no, wait, Im REALLY salty bcuz I got the Neheb to pull off what you just displayed. Anger. It will fade, but still: Anger.
Honestly im ok with it. It helps stop infinite loops. What we really need, is a trade in system though.
All there eratas will start being hard to track soon. So we need updated cards to better track it of old favorities that were effected.
Neheb *second funeral service.
First one was immortalized, second it was nerfed.
4 weeks ago, i wanted to put shadow of the second sun, in one of my decks. I guess this card isn't that good anymore right?
Its been 6month Im building Neheb high power EDG and I am now sad
They reverted this decision, so don't be.
@@CKarasu13where is the link I’m trying to find where it says this but I can’t find it
Great, now i just lost one of my favorite infinite combos :(
1. Thanks for bringing this to our attention! Guess I need to catch up on the bloomburrow notes.
2. If they wanted to maintain functionality, they could've just phrased it like "every main phase after your first", so I'm guessing this is Intentional?
3. I immediately became excited for a [commander] with the phrase "at the beginning of your third main phase" do glad to see that referenced at the end.
Cheers!
I can't wait to see the "at your X main phase" cards 😂
The few cards this mechanical change affects aren't significant because they're pretty much only played in commander and are outside of red color identity by default, and as such would rarely will get into a situation where this change will affect gameplay to a meaningful degree. As pointed out in the video though, Neheb no longer goes infinite with Aggravated Assault, which is honestly for the better imo. The design team at WotC, especially those who work on Commander, have been vocal about disliking 2-card loops involving a commander, and this change removes one such combo.
They don't want to apply additional main phases are the norm which you know it doesn't do.
@@ToxicAtomsaying they're only played in the most popular format it's not a compelling argument. Also if you're playing these cards you are very likely to be playing cards that care about this. I can't remember the last time I saw a neheb deck that wasn't running aggravated assault.
@@MakeVarahHappen You're right, saying they're only played in the most popular format it's not a compelling argument. Good thing that's not what I said. I said they're only played in commander, where cards are restricted by color identity, and the vast majority of these cards are played outside of a color identity where multiple postcombat main phases can occur.
Also, I'd like you to think a little more critically about your claim that "if you're playing these cards, you're likely to be playing cards that care about this [rules change]." As far as I'm aware, Neheb is the only one where that's true, which is why I mentioned it as an exception in the very comment you're replying to.
You wanna talk non-compelling arguments? I think purposely misconstruing what I said to make yourself sound correct, then flat out making things up about usage, and then again ignoring part of what I said on top of that is pretty non-compelling.
They could also keep Neheb's functionality by making trigger on "each main phase of your turn other than the first main phase".
I appreciate the language simplification, but I would really home they choose to reword some of the existing cards so that they maintain functionality. They've done it before, and some cards are so absurdly wordy as a result of trying to maintain their function over trying to make them fit into a text box. Animate Dead is a good example of this. Using templating along the lines of "At the beginning of each of your main phases except the first each turn, do X"
This video is outdated, the old cards function the same as they always did.
If all main phases are post combat main phases, then why does Neheb play any differently? Each additional post combat main phase is still "your post combat main phase"... IO fail to see why the card doesn't work anymore.
Exactly, I reached the same conclusion. I love to durdle in my games so when I read a ruling like this I can't help but think this is a very durdly move; this is a move from a designer to save their job and sound relevant by coming up with something ''new'' but in reality= brain dead contribution :P
Why not just add "each post combat main phase"?
They could errata it to say in each main phase that follows a combat phase do xy
Changing Neheb to alter the way he works seems weird given that in the past they have gone out of their way to keep things like Time Vault working exactly the way they were originally worded even if that was a bit broken. Plus Neheb has been legal for years and it hasn't exactly been game breaking.
My poor brain so many phases haha
Or they could errata him to "next main phase this turn"
Just make it so post combat main phase = second main phase. Problem solved. Most people I've played with in the last 10 years call it main phase 2 anyway
I don’t think it’s bad but they should at least errata neheb to keep the combo, just cause.
They could fix him by changing the text to say at the beginning of each of your main phases, after the first,....
This does but doesn't really matter to Fury of the horde right?
Chancellor of the tangle has nothing to put it’s ability on the stack a second time. The text change is nice for clarification but within the current rules it doesn’t change the way it would function
Shoutouts to Ape Escape fans
"At the beginning of each main phase on your turn except the first, add {R} for each 1 life your opponents have lost this turn." C'mon Wizards, it's not that hard.
Is this a rules change or a template change? Is part of CR 505 changing or just card text.
"each post combat main phase" fixed.
Lol they just went back on it
Well, my Megatron deck now needs a rework
How does this affect Belbe?
you only get the mana once per turn
Well I was already changing my Neheb list a little and I guess I found an extra card or two to swap. Appreciate the info before I made an ass of myself in public (playing Magic at least)
Nah you're good, they aren't changing how anything works.
Hell yeah great news. Neheb is my boy!
Alternate wording change: Replacing "postcombat main phase" on cards with "any main phase after your first".
or it will say something like 'at the beginning of each main phase except for your first main phase'
I literally just fixed building my first mono-red deck, Neheb 😂
This actually can have some implications beyond pet decks, Tymna the Weaver is a huge CEDH card. And since it is the commander that opens up the doors a lot. At least it doesn't affect the Obeka cards or other formats for now since that would have been a huge mess.
No more infinite combats with Neheb?
Guess it means he is back to "hardcast Ulamog ASAP" duty once again.
They just changed the names of the steps from what i see. Nothing really changed. If it was as bad as the Internet says, then all postcombat phase using cards are no longer legal.
People will whinge and whine about this change for about a month and then realize that the change barely matters to the 11 cards it applies to.
Edit: or 0 cards it applies to I guess, as the rules manager has stated that these cards are _not_ getting a functional errata at all. They're simply not going to use "pre/postcombat main phase" going forward.
I'm still salty about the Pithing Needle change and that change is about to standard rotate. This matters a lot more.
@@MakeVarahHappen You're probably also the type to still deeply care that Regal Behemoth is no longer a Lizard
@@ToxicAtom Lmao, I just recently figured that out after a Gishath put it into the battlefield.
@@ToxicAtom Nah, I did have issues with the Phyrexian update but I accepted it. That isn't a bad thing.
I agree but if it doesn't matter, why change the rule in the first place.
Or they could just ban extra combat spells and abilities.
certified yugioh moment 🗿
I’m not thrilled with changes that wildly impact cards like this-and I know it’s not many cards-unless there’s a severe issue with what’s happening (see: Companions).
Without having all the details, I generally dislike it when paper cards don’t do what they say.
Otherwise, I don’t hate the idea of this change. I just hope they maintain card functionality. If they can’t do that, it’ll kinda be unpleasant.
6/10 for the change, I think. Good video, though! Like 9/10 video on the subject!
To Megatron enjoyer, you are still safe to dominate the game, since they just want to nerf new cards, not the old ones, just like "trigger only once each turns" to nerf new cards
- Optimus prime
I dunno. Seems to me that going infinite with this combo is far from the expectation and you're more likely to have the game end from the result of one of red's board wipes doing, say, 13 damage to all players and suddenly having enough mana to spend to do whatever with. If you're wanting to go infinite with a commander, you're going to play something like Ghave. Not only is it cheaper, but it'll go infinite with a ham sandwich.
Dogshit change, don't functionally errata old cards, just make new ones with the new templating
I can appreciate that there's higher levels of play, and different formats. Kind of like how blue can take multiple turns in a row, there's enough red that allows multiple sequential combat phases. It's something that I don't prefer, but getting like the occasional deck that goes "hey, I'm shooting for maybe 1 or 2 rounds that have two [Turns/combat phases] in a row" when a player is making a move to win, that seems like a pretty great and potentially fun challenge in occasion. I just get real salty when people make decks that just abuse such a good thing and they take infinite turns/phases, and sometimes not even have a win at that point (they should!).
All that to prime the following: "Additional combat phases" seems alot rarer than "Extra turns", at least in my experience. My initial take on "only on your second" was a way to kind of "cap" a infinite Phase loop, which seems healthy! "Sure, do two combats per turn, just don't be mad if I got that board wipe!" But if they're making space for "On your 3rd/4th/nth main phase", and building synergy combos for that, I think that's a problem. Pure Aggro is cool and helps counter "Controlly Combo lock downs", but actively printing stuff that directly pushes players to take "Nth Combats" is going to be a sign of toxic power creep. I REALLY hope my first impression is what they were going for, which would help encourage more aggro "two combat" decks, but also kind if make it less rewarding to just focus on 3+ combats in a turn.
while I get what you're saying, The reality is that infinite combo is an inevitablity the way the game's cards are being printed. It's the nature of the interaction of cards that were not meant to exist at the same time in standard and wizards hesitantcy to implement once per turn clauses. Pandora's box was opened a VERY LONG time ago. Infinite combat step decks are hardly the first or last archtype of deck to abuse a mechanic. This change only serves to make Neheb a bad deck essentially in a mono color strategy that ONLY has one infinite enabler. So I'm not sure I agree with your sentiment. Is it an "abuse of a good thing?" Sure I guess it is. But I suppose we should ban a MASSIVE amount of cards in commander if we were to try and get rid of every infinite.
The commander ban list should be expanded for a ton of cards that frankly shouldn't be allowed to parade around (looking at thoracle combo as an example) but I'm not sure it's feasible or wise to ban EVERY infinite enabler or combo deck/card that exist.
Also it just occurs to me that this isn't the only infinite combat steps deck. you can also run Najeela and pay WUBRG to do the same thing. as long as you have a way to untap your lands during combat (a few cards enable this) you can do the same thing. I don't think this is wizards "trying to make something healthy" it's them trying to save text on cardboard and ruining a card because of it.
EDIT: They reversed course on Neheb and now he functions like he was intended to prior to the change, kinda proving that the rules change only incidentally made him bad and was an attempt at saving cardboard space rather than an attempt at "balancing" this card. I'm sure more cards like Neheb will be printed in the future with whatever his new oracle text will be.
Interesting. Lil sad but i never had these cards. It does feel like a more restrictive rule
nahhhh there goes my most powerful deck. why are they doing this to meee😭
That's not very cool nerfing cards this way. If they made it so that all the old wonky cards kept their function when they did oracle text, then Neheb should too. I don't even play the guy and would be furious if they ruined my deck's gameplan.
This video has to be errata'd
Neheb was reverted, please take down or update this video
I legit hate this
Nobody likes aggravated assault combos anyway.
The comboes will remain. They reverted the planned change.
First, and interesting, old gnawbone still goes infinite with aggravated assault
Edit: goes not does
euh... your 2nd main phases, 3rd main phases and so on are still "post combat main phases" it do not change a thing
Honestly I think it’s a pretty stupid change. If a card is messed up or broken then just fix the card or ban it you don’t have to go and change rules lol ik they may have done it for game sake but it’s stupid
So stupid. But I role with the punches I guess
I don’t really care, I just genuinely don’t understand why they even bothered changing this. What’s the point ?
This sucks!!!!!! There was literally no reason to change the rules for this. Literally! You can count mainphases as being the first, the second, the third etc of the turn, and also a mainphase being your 1 precombat mainphase or one of your 1+ postcombat mainphases. The only thing this does is kill the functionality of a cool card!
Could't they have just worded it as ''Additional Main Phases'' or pluralized it ''s'' to the ''At the beginning of your post combat main phase''s''...
I just shake my head at whomever came up with this ''brilliant'' idea, give them a raise! Wow they sure got great ideas! NOT!!!!!
PREDICTION: I already see a new brain dead design in the future a card that will read something like this: '' On your 3 main phase this happens... On your 4rth main phase this happens... On your 5th main phase something happens again...'' not unlike Jetmir or Baylen but with main phases instead, in fact it wouldn't surprise me if they already started on a commander deck with a legendary creature with similar lines of text :P
Stupid change. Very unnecessary. If there are cards coming that care about the second or third or fourth main phase how hard is it to print exactly that on those cards? Surely it isn't to simplify language or interaction when we have the likes of Nadu cleared for play 🙄
Im not sure why they did it, they could have reworded cards then moved forward without changing old cards. But lets be fair, this happens ALL THE TIME. The game is almost unrecognizable by the rules in 1993 with how the stack works, damage, artifacts, etc. No reason to believe cards can't be changed. And if 11 of of almost 30,000 unique cards are changed who really cares. Oh your neheb combo needs to work harder? Who cares
I really feel that this change was unnecessary.
This video is already outdated, and shows no evidence that it was ever the intent to change how older cards function.