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The TRUTH Reptile Cohabitation
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- Опубликовано: 10 апр 2021
- We discuss reptile cohabitation, what reptiles can live together in a terrarium, what rules to follow to ensure cohabitation is done safely, and much more!
Cohabiting reptiles is often a “blacklisted” practice in herpetoculture. Many Facebook groups prohibit discussion of cohabiting and will ban members who dare to bring it up! Is cohabiting as evil as it is made out to be? In today’s episode, Francis Cosquieri, Lori Torrini, Joseph Brabin, and Liam Sinclair discuss cohabiting. They cover rules for success, what to avoid, conspecific vs heterospecific, biotopes, and more! Cohabbing reptiles. Cohab reptiles. What reptiles can live together? Keeping reptiles together.
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ABOUT DILLON:
Welcome to my channel, Animals at Home! Here you will find the reptile videos I have made as well as video versions of The Animals at Home Podcast! The podcast mainly focuses on the pet reptile industry. My mission with Animals at Home is simple: To inspire others to push the limits of their reptile husbandry by promoting the importance of high-level, creative husbandry individualized for each reptile.
• The TRUTH Reptile Coha...
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Try this at your own risk! I take full responsibility for the safety of this setup for myself but cannot recommend anyone copy what I have done unless you are willing to do the same.
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Thanks for welcoming me back on the podcast, Dillon! I think that this turned out to be a wonderful episode, although it could quite easily have gone on twice as long!
If anyone has any questions for me personally about my experiences with cohabitation, feel free to reply to this comment and I'll get back to you, assuming that RUclips actually notifies me (you know what it can be like 🙄😂).
It was a pleasure as always, Joseph! And yes… I think will have to do a sequel to this one 😄
Thanks for having us on was a great chat, hopefully of many more!
Many more to come! 🙂 thanks for joining another episode!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast 😊
@Rex Colubra thanks mate
This talk was so refreshing and enlightening. It seems impossible that you could get four or five keepers together that can have informed conversations and discuss cohabitation without casting anyone who does or considers doing so into the fires of cancel culture hell. Everyone involved was so pleasant and were able to communicate their opinions and observations in an easily digestible manner. I started my reptile journey thirty plus years ago in a chain pet store and have continued my personal education and husbandry over the years having epiphanies and failures throughout. We have learned so much about husbandry over the years and I feel we have so much more to learn and this channel is a great place to do it. Keep bringing the knowledge.
Thank you for listening, I’m glad you enjoyed it! I despise cancel culture! It is much more effective to openly discuss touchy subjects rather than keep them off the table entirely. We had a blast recording this!
Accusations of anthropomorphism get thrown around a lot when you voice concern about snakes living in tiny barren bins with no lights or stimulation. The irony is that the rack collectors (I'm talking of people who store snakes in racks forever and only ever open them to feed or clean or quickly show them off) are the ones doing the anthropomorphism. They assume that, because from a human point of view (and the collector's current knowledge) the enclosure is as safe as can be, that the snake must see it this way and that its all they can possibly need/want. This belief, however, is entirely based on the human knowledge that this tiny dark bin is safely kept inside a human house with no predators around. The snake, however, can't possibly know these things. For all its instinct tells it, there's no reason a predator could not be lurking nearby and reach it. Not to mention how can a human possibly know exactly what an individual animal might want or need if you never offer it any options at all?
@Rex Colubra Exactly! Science, for example, is often used as an argument by ball python collectors to explain why their ways is the best way to keep those animals. Yet actual science based reptile keeping could not be further from this forever unquestioned, unchallenged, cookie-cutter method of keeping.
Sadly those methods create the illusion that nothing could be wrong with it because under-stimulated animals with no options naturally become ''lazy'' and can't show much of a behavioral range.
Reminds me of some people I knew who kept their betta fish in 1L fish bowls... and then would complain that the fish was boring and never did anything! Like... it can barely turn around in that empty cup, what do you expect it to do??!!
I've only been a reptile keeper for 2 years but our northern blue tongue has completely changed the way I see these animals. Slinky comes out of his tank whenever he chooses to and considers the ground floor of our small home as part of his territory. He periodically rotates his favored hiding spots (as he would in the wild) but particularly loves burrowing in our bed. Its really rewarding to allow him that freedom and agency (we don't force much on him) and get to see a large range of behaviors and personality from him.
He may spend most of his day burrowed, but he still has almost daily periods where he is very active and loves to explore/patrol his whole territory.
Never fails to make us laugh with his constant derpy new antics, and strange quirks. He's a very fast learner and I've witnessed him show interest in a plate of meat my bf was eating... but my bf never feeds him. So after watching my bf eat the delicious smelling food for a moment, he will turn completely around and come to my feet to beg ME even though I have no food at that moment. He knows its futile to beg my bf, and that his best chance at getting anything is with me lol!
Kate, when a person keeps reptiles for decades, patterns begin to emerge. It really is not one or the other, meaning either rack or cage. Both have benefits, both have shortcomings. For many species of commonly kept snakes, the combo of drawer below and cage above would be the best.
I visited one kingsnake and milksnake breeder who did just that back in the 90’s. Cage above, drawer below. When you went into the snake room, every cage was empty. All of the kings/milks were in the drawers, by choice. He told me they will come up into the cage mostly at night, but otherwise they spend the vast majority of the time in the drawer.
Anyway, my advice is to try some things out with your own reptiles. You may be surprised . I do 100% agree with you that a cramped drawer does not make a good cage. However, you might find that for certain species, a nice roomy drawer can actually provide a better environment than a glass cage. Knowing the species is paramount, and unfortunately that is what is often lacking. Example- how leopard geckos have magically changed from crepuscular creatures to basking lizards? Nope, they are not basking lizards per say but might bask during a very brief season for very limited time. Does not mean we should blast uvb on these soft-skinned lizards all day every day. This example is not directed at you- it is an example in general how we keepers can go too far one way or the other, when the best solution is a gradient in the middle somewhere.
@@6strings735 Oh I'm not against bins and racks necessarily either. I'm just not a big fan of the way some people use them. I don't think its ideal the way some people will keep a massive collection of snakes into cramped barren bins and those animals never come out or experience any stimuli besides the very occasional getting their bin cleaned or having the same food item thrown in.
I see tons of snake keepers on the Facebook Reptile Enrichment page posting pictures of their snakes that are free to come out and explore when they want (and the owner is there to let them out) and these animals often seem to end up wanting to do this regularly. I was actually pretty surprised with just how bold some of these snakes become with putting themselves out in the open and vulnerable like that!
I think that something we need to be very careful about is assuming that reptiles would be doing ''something'' (or using) something more if it was really important to them.
It would be easy for most people to look at my blue tongue skink and think ''well... he spends 95% of his time buried, and some days won't even poke his head out of his substrate at all, so surely spending his whole life in a rectangle with substrate is all this animal ever needs''.
But that would trying to view a cold blooded animal purely through the lenses of a mammal. It would be completely missing out on that 5% of the time where he becomes that active, clever and amazing animal that makes us laugh nearly daily with his strong personality and derpy antics.
That 5% of time happens nearly daily, when he asks to be let out. Its before he heads off to find a new place to burrow in the house, usually a laundry basket or our bed. This is the time when he does all of his exercise as he explores around the house. Its when he learns new creative ways of reaching places we had no idea he could reach, or gets into a feud with the roomba, or learns to beg for food when I'm in the kitchen. Its when his whole surprising personality shines through, and he interacts fully with his world. Its when he is looking for the best sun-patch in the house, or follows me to the sofa because he can smell my plate of food... and ends up watching netflix with me on the sofa (hidden under a pillow this just his head sticking out).
Not to mention that simply being able to go from his tank's hiding place, to a different favorite burrowing spot in the house (as pointless and boring as it might seem to us) seems very important to him! Wild Northern Skinks, after all, regularly will rotate their preferred hiding spots.
I’ve been keeping numerous ball pythons in large, lavish, planted, bioactive enclosures; and I’ll say:
-ball pythons climb plenty given the chance.
-ball pythons excel in crafting their own personal tunnel and burrow system. It’s amazing to watch them work and create lasting structures throughout their substrate.
- they take a keen interest in the plants growing in their enclosure, eyeballing flowers, and such. They do great with plants (so many people say “oh you could never keep plants with these snakes, they’ll just destroy them!”.. 90% not true, provided you choose the right plants).
-they often explore every inch of their enclosures, despite having established a few favored spots.
This falls under that category, along with so many topics, that is a rule you should never, ever, break. Until you know what you’re doing at which point you’ll wonder why it’s a “rule” at all.
Yes, absolutely!
Thank for hosting another productive roundtable discussion Dillon, and, thanks to everyone who continues to listen to us go on and on about reptiles!
Thank you for joining me again Lori! :)
This discussion was extremely interesting for me and contained some things I never thought about. Thank you all :)
Thank you for listening, Hannah
I think this turned out very well! Thanks for having me on, it was a pleasure to talk to Dillon again, and to share thoughts with Liam, Joseph and Lori. It was a very enjoyable and, I think, productive video to make.
I think it is definitely very important to bear in mind - this video was never intended to be a 'how to cohabit?' video but 'is it possible to cohabit?' And it was unscripted and largely us just bouncing off one another - there is much, much more one could talk about on the topic, but I think as a first dialogue on the subject it was important to state that, despite the potential risks, YES, in many cases it is possible to cohabit; in some cases it is not; and to encourage people to keep an open mind before shutting down discussion on the subject completely. I would certainly recommend anybody to research the species they are working with thoroughly before attempting the endeavour!
Cheers,
Francis
Thank you for joining us, Francis! As always it is an absolute pleasure listening to you speak. I still cannot figure out how you store so much information in your head! Until the next one 😁
I'm 1.5 hours in... This is truly fascinating! 👍👍 Loving it.
Thanks for listening, Merlin!
Thanks for a hugely interesting discussion. Back in the erly 1970s I used to visit the reptile house at London zoo every week. They had quite a number of very large enclosures, and co-habited a number of same species, but also different species of identical genera. Because I went there so often, I remember exactly: two mature reticulated pythons, two mature burmese, two red tailed mature boas, a wonderful enclosure with at least six puff adders, one with several green tree pythons, an enclosure with a black mamba and a green mamba (the green I think was a d. augusticeps); a huge enclosure with an eastern diamondback with a western one. The snakes were offered freshly killed prey; these were thrown in close to the snakes. I never saw evidence of any problem, but of course, the enclosures were huge: the large pythons and boa enclosures were as big or larger than the rooms most of us humans live in. The puff adder enclosure was great fun; some of the snakes would be roaming around in straight rectilinear lines, while others would be lying still. Re intelligence: I have had an adult b.c. amarali since summer 2017. I had not kept any snakes for many years, and so was ultra cautious, and decided to place newspaper on top of the cypress mulch at the area in which I was going to offer her food. I did this for the first two feedings, all went well. The third time was not so good: I opened the enclosure, and was about to put in the newspaper, and was met with a massive feeding strike from the snake (the prey item was not in the room at this time). She had learnt that the presence of newspaper meant a juicy rat was coming. That was the end of the newspaper!! Thanks for all the wonderful photos: I especially enjoyed the pictures of Lori's beautiful carpets and bredlis.
Thanks for listening, John! I agree, there is something really special about viewing a multi-species enclosure. Like you said, zoos do it all the time with lots of success. That sounds like an incredible reptile house btw!!
It's such a wonderful way to spend my Sunday afternoon her in the Netherlands, your potcast on & me looking after my houseplants/aquarium & crested gecko tank!!
I am so glad the podcast has become a part of your weekly routine 😊 Enjoy the episode!
Ha, watching Dillion herd such passionate personalities was activating my confrontational anxieties 😂 Also I love how Lorrie said a well crafted idea, supported it with evidence, then peaced out the rest of the time. This was a great episode, it gave me multiple days of "environmental enrichment" so to speak!
It’s like herding cats! 🤣🤣 it is an absolute pleasure getting to moderate discussions between such a brilliant minds!
This was so interesting, I love the round table episodes 🤩
Thank you for listening!
The hubbub at 1:59:38 when Liam mentions lighting 🤣
😂😂
Thank you to all involved! Took me a while to watch it all but worth taking the time. As an old school keeper i can recall some large stores having mixed species of lizards in tanks merely labelled as “small” “medium” and “large”, with an array of North American species, now rarely seen in the hobby, and some Asian species mixed in. In someways the hobby has moved on leaps and bounds from those times, but the variety of commonly available species seems to have declined. A shame that more people weren’t captive breeding all those WC species for the last 25 years or so. Great episode, and fantastic contributors!
Thank you for taking the time to listen to the whole episode! And I totally agree with what you’re saying… Somehow in the last 15 years or so the reptile trade has become more popular in the main stream yet species diversity has declined immensely. Such a shame. I’m hoping that changes within the next few years!
A fascinating episode, I really love how you guys handled this topic. There was also so much passion from everyone, I feel like this episode could of just kept going on for hours. I really would of liked to hear more about ball python cohabitation, as it really feels like the advice to not cohab them is definitely based on more generic don't cohab reptile assumption rather then species itself. I agree with the train of thought that cohabbing should be left to the more experienced.
On the topic of leopard geckos I hate when people say they aren't social, because while I don't think they need to be cohabbed, its just not true at all to say they aren't social. I believe people do it because its a more simple way to discourage cohabbing, but regardless misinformation is misinformation.
great episode
I agree! I absolutely loved the episode but wish they spoke more on ball pythons in specific. The main thing I got about them is that cohabbing snakes in general is highly difficult, especially when it comes to feeding. I’d be interested to know about cohabbing ball pythons with other species though.
Thank you two for listening! Glad you enjoyed the episode, if we do another episode on cohabitation, we will be sure to include more about ball pythons!
Fascinating discussion
So, amateur herp keeper here, but first had fish, where cohabbing is the norm, and watched a lot on how to do that healthy before doing it, and picked species based on that research that should work well (white cloud mountain minnows and hillstream loaches and snails). Those same rules from the fish community do seem to mostly apply to herps based on this. ...but they also similar to some mammals also -- human cohab with dogs and cats plenty, and particularly with cats, there's standards on how to cohab well (have multiple litter boxe, enough space), how to introduce (door method etc.), as well understanding that some cats will never cohab well so best to not cohab with other cats (and some humans don't cohab well with cats). Different but similar, but can use that as an example in that there is risks involved with there -- I once got a four inch scratch on the bottom of my foot from friendly fire during a cat fight on my bed 😅 -- and that needs to be managed, but is much more accepted then herps, which has confused me.
Getting into herps, after months of off and on research, I deliberate choice species that are usually cohabbed and well documented (Santa Isabel dart frogs, mourning geckos [my lil lesbians are not together with frogs ATM but may be when I'm more experienced], starry night reed frogs) because it doesn't feel good to me to have them alone -- and have made sure enclosure size matches Josh's frogs recommend size or bigger for the amount (they have enclosure size recs that consider community keeping for species that can cohab). So instead of saying people need experience to cohab, I'd suggest instead if going to cohab, try to go with species that is well documented in with well known practices, as some folk won't get into the community if can't cohab because of not wanting the animal to be alone.
It seems the big difference between mammals and herps in attitude is the years of subpar keeping had lead to lessons from that that don't apply to better husbandry
I'd suggest watching ants Canada for some interesting multiple species cohabbing, tho he makes some interesting risk aware choices at times that may put people off (like trying to silicone a water area while frogs are still in the tank)
Something else to ad is I come from the gay sex party community, and something we do around stis and substance use is harm reduction and risk awareness -- to try and not shame folk into behavior and instead acknowledge people can do risk aware behavior so let's encourage education and risk reduce when possible, and I'd suggest people trying to adept talking about topics like that in general; which I believe this podcast is somewhat doing, but isn't what's happening on Facebook -- I have left most of those groups already as there's too much anger and what feels like bullying that is more for ego then animal well being.
I’ve been diving through your videos and I thoroughly enjoy them, I just discovered this channel in the last week. These are really important conversations to have.
Glad you found the channel! Enjoy the future episodes… You have quite a few to go through!
If you look at some species such as kings, milks, even rosyboas, it is clear that in the wild there are seasonal conditions that can bring multiple animals together (winter retreats, early Spring basking areas, water sources, mating, egg laying sites for the egg layers.) Outside of those times, they are more solitary. So for those species, keeping animals together the entire year may not be a good representation of what they do, or else there is no real benefit to them. IHowever, keeping them together over winter into early Spring may allow them to select preferred mates and make decisions, maybe compete a bit. So again, maybe the answer is not all or none but rather somewhere in the middle.
Just like uvb for leopard geckos 😁
Yes! Excellent point!
Wonderfully done.
Fascinating and informative as always from the familiar faces willing to share from such a wealth of knowledge.
Thank you ❤️
Thanks for listening :) Glad you enjoyed the episode!
I co-hab a pair of rescued northern redbellies in a fifteen gallon long, bio-active planted tank, and I definitely think they benefit from being housed together. The male is much more shy and is emboldened by the female. If he was by himself i dont think he would thrive nearly as well as he has. The two of them spend most of the day festooned atop the plants and branches basking together and when they do hide, they curl up together under the same tiny piece of bark, even though they have a ton of natural hides to choose from. She will climb up onto my hand when i put it in the tank, and he will follow her up sometimes even though he would rather not be picked up. Once they are in my hand, they are quite calm and we sit outside together while i soak up a cup of coffee and they soak up the sun. The only time that I see any conflict with the two of them is right after she sheds, he becomes a sex pest, chasing her around trying to lock with her for about twelve hours while she runs and hides from him. Not a species that reportedly does well in captivity, so i wouldnt recommend them to a novice keeper, but if you know what you're doing, they are an amazing micro snake species that seems to benefit from being kept socially in a planted temperate viv. They are kinda like the snake equivalent of dart frogs... but way cooler cause they're snakes! I love this channel Dillon! So many great guests! Keep on pushing people to be better to their animals cause they sure do appreciate it.
Thanks for listening and adding your personal experience to the discussion, Bob! Glad you are enjoying the channel, more awesome guests to come :)
This was incredible. Thanks for telling me about the Round Table series the other day during our email exchange!
Thanks for listening, Adam! I figured you would enjoy these 🙂
At 30:00 when Liam's talking about pathogen risk from other parts of the world, yet in a 2 hour podcast on bioactive enclosures where everyone uses isopods and plants from any country creating a huge pathogen risk, a risk that can be managed but isn't talked about. I'm not hating, I watch all these guys videos. Just be nice to see some consistency
Could invertebrates and plants be carriers of a reptile/amphibian pathogen/parasite? I don't think that's very likely, and I have never heard of a case where that occurs.
And even then, I don't believe anyone uses plants and isopods sourced directly from their country of origin. The only case where I think there may be a transfer of pathogens is if someone were to take a wild plant from their area where native amphibians/reptiles live. Even then, many bioactive keepers encourage a quarantine period for plants in addition to a throrough washing, which further minimises the risk.
@@JTSquirrel thanks, that actually answers a lot of my questions. I've gone bio for some of my inverts, but just planning my first few bioactive reptile enclosures and which I should do it with
Excellent video! Loved every second
Thanks for listening, I’m glad you enjoyed it!
Amazing vid mate!
Thank you! 🙂
This is so good. Watched this twice!
Glad you enjoyed it, thank you for listening
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Thanks guys:) ❤
Thanks for watching! 😁
I cohabitate a couple of different leopard gecko groups, and I've experienced similar things. I have one shy male and bold female in one tank and the male only comes on my hand when the female does it first. When he was by himself he only ever bolted into his hide as soon as you came near his tank. They are so much smarter and more social than we think 😊
I did think this podcast brought up some good points. I will be researching leopard gecko sociality for sure. However I think you've left an important part of the discussion out and that is what I'm spontaneously going to call the "Spectrum of sociability". Basically there is a range from "I need friends or I'll die" to "I'm going to murder everyone unless I'm horny". You see not all animals benefit from social interactions. In my animal handling/laboratory science class in college we learned a bit about what is good enrichment and what is bad enrichment and how good enrichment for one species would be disastrous for another. Take rats/cavies and hamsters. Rats/cavies are extremely social animals to the point that buying only one is arguably extremely distressing to the animal It is STANDARD PRACTICE to cohab these animals for their welfare. But doing the same for hamsters is a terrible, awful idea. They are very solitary animals in the wild and they only interact for breeding and reproduction purposes their are stories abound about how cohabbing hamsters leads to mauling and early death and breeders frequently have to deal with mothers cannibalizing their children. It was stressed to us that proper enrichment for hamsters includes being separated from other hamsters.
Now I agree that there are clear examples of social reptiles, most famously garter snakes. But there hasn't been a lot of research into how social most reptiles can be. It seems that leopard geckos are possibly social but I have a feeling that there are a few species that are more like hamsters and that we need to do careful research on our chosen species to see if cohabbing is truly, undeniably beneficial for our pets before attempting it.
I also disagree that breeding is something we NEED to provide just because they could potentially enjoy it. The repercussions of uncontrolled breeding is well documented in cats and dogs and it will just lead to the death of many animals and further tarnishing of the reptile community's name. Breeding should NOT be the end goal of every keeper. It is unsustainable.
Absolutely. This was just a dialogue between various keepers presenting their opinions and largely bouncing off one another; it was not scripted and I am sure a lot of things that could have been said were not said. For example, I never did touch upon the few examples of snakes being kept with other species that CAN work; I forgot to mention the perils of mixing different sizes of animals, or of mixing males and females that are too young and the damage that being bred too young can do. These are all topics I have spoken about at length in the past - but if anything this video is really just a discussion on the fact that there are no 'one size fits all rules' and was intended to point out that the common assumption that all reptiles are asocial is incorrect.
The most important thing - and I know this was highlighted several times in the discussion - is to do your research for the individual species. I would hate for people to just watch a video and then go out and buy two animals and put them together. It CAN be done, and done very successfully, but this was never meant to be a video about 'how to cohabit' but rather 'is it possible to cohabit.'
On the breeding - I don't think anybody said breeding is something we NEED to provide? In fact pointing out that breeding is not the pinnacle of the hobby, or even a clear indicator of welfare is something I think every one of the people talking on the video has stated in the past; I covered it in some depth in my one-on-one discussion with Dillon last year. You are absolutely correct, aside from uncontrolled breeding leading to too large a surplus population (my particular solution is to use any eggs I do not want to incubate as extra food for other animals I keep, which again I mentioned on the other video), overbreeding a particular individual female can very easily make her health deteriorate and shorten her lifespan. What was stated is that the drive to breed is very strong, especially in males; if we are going to indulge in the need and benefits of 'enrichment' then allowing animals to breed - at the correct time and when they are in adequate health - is unquestionably enriching. Right now in the first part of the year, many people are querying why their male Corn snakes and certain other temperate colubrids are off food and wandering around their enclosure a lot. I have seen many such questions in the last few weeks. There is a reason for this, and I feel that allowing our snakes to indulge that drive responsibly and ethically can be a very enriching thing for them.
Cheers,
Francis
Just an amateur that stumbled on this and reading the comments for interesting discussion. The breeding part -- with mammels and non-egg layers, abortion is harder and generally requires surgery tmk, With egg laying reptiles, the eggs can culled easily... Thou also hatched animals can be fed to other animal even if that sad to say, but for meat eating animals, they need the meat... somehow and it'd better for that death to be part of a healthy cycle of life where the animal had good quality of life prior to dieing (it bothers me that feeders sometimes don't seem to). With cats and dogs overpopulation, euthanasia is occuring (43% of cats, was looking into this yesterday) and that's in some respect more sad then letting the death go back into the cycle of life. 😵💫 Their similar but very different situations.
It's reasonable been discovered that snakes have clits (people just... assumed they didn't and didn't really look, then someone did), e.g. they likely get enjoyment from sex, so like denying them that enjoyment feels ethically odd to me -- but so does neutering cats and dogs (it's important for population control, but I wonder how much they miss having them as part of their life). Everything is ethically complicated and it's important to consider all those sides imo.
Hello great video information podcast
Thanks for listening!
My son's leopard geckos are co-habbed in a 40 breeder and they do just fine. I admit it began out of ignorance on my part. Going only from the breeder at the expo saying they could cohab if similar sized.
Both female. The older one seems to run the territory. They have multiple hides that all have pass through a so nobody gets cornered. The younger one just calmly clears out when the other comes around.
Feeding time it's reversed and we have to separate them because the younger one is a more spirited eater.
Otherwise, no issues. The just tend to avoid touching each other but they don't show physical signs of stress. They have multiple resources so they just keep to themselves.
I also keep a checkered garter snakes. I used to keep a pair together Feeding time is a pain because honestly I don't think they see well, so they just grab at anything moving. Also I know of a keeper that had a garter snake swallow another. He was amazingly able to intervene and save both snakes.
That species of garter snake in particular seems to have the occasional cannibal.
I should add specifically ALBINO checkered garter snakes, so I speculate that eyesight could be a factor. I could probably get mine to eat a rock if I made it smell like fish.
As you say, as long as the keeper is there to watch closely and monitor animals being cohabited together, it can be done successfully for many species
I love this roundtable. And i love the chanels of everybody around the table. Great work. But i just have a little construktive recomidation... When you inserts photos, please insert a photo of a spieces they are talking about at the time in the video ;)
Thanks for listening! Glad you enjoyed it. I very rarely insert photos into the episodes, but next time I do, I will keep that in mind!
I’m late to this but wow this is great. You don’t have to learn from your mistakes near as much anymore, now days if you prepare and love to learn you can learn from others endless documented mistakes and how they dealt with them.
Exactly! Glad you enjoyed it, thank you for watching
This is very interesting . The part about aquarium fish was very interesting I've been keeping aquariums for many years, and I keep a large variety of tropical fish. I come from more of the fish world ,And I keep my reptiles similarly to my aquarium fish .. LOL but I mostly keep frogs and they're 1 of the easier species to keep together
Thanks for listening!
This was a very informative and enjoyable discussion. In a way, I was looking forward to it. I have been tired by having reptiles described as strictly solitary all of the time in hobby circles. I don’t want to imply that all hobbyists think that, but the vast majority, and definitely nearly all when it pertains to beginner species, think like this. My guess is because most keepers use smaller enclosures and cohabitation cannot work there, they deem them solitary all of the time. Other than small frogs, which are kept together anyway just like fish, I have not much experience with reptile cohabitation and neither I plan in the near future. However, once I had put two female leopard geckos together in a temporary setting for three months. The one was a very tame individual from the common domestic population, whereas the other was from an E. turcmenicus bloodline, Much Shyer and quicker. Fortunately nothing bad happened. The opposite, I witnessed a lot of interesting behavior. They quickly developed a communal toilet corner, and when one came out to feed the other followed suit. Gradually, the tame female was conditioned to the sound of insects dropping in the bowl and she would come out even at day to feed. The other didn’t progress as much, but she could be active at night. They usually slept together. The shy one didn’t learn handling from the tame one though.
Glad you enjoyed the episode, thank you for listening! Like you say, cohabitation is not for all hobbyists however there is tremendous value in at least discussing it in an open Conversation.
Tried to share on a Leopard Gecko Facebook page and admin have not approved the post yet. We will see if they do.
I thought a great conversation. Francis’s approach at the start I felt just emphasised it is not for everyone and if your not sure then don’t.
Personally I can’t see myself trying to cohab. I am too new and want to make sure my current animals have the best care I can give.
But who knows what the future holds.
Thanks, Dave, I really appreciate you sharing it! Maybe they will approve it... you never know!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast It has been approved which is great :-)
Verry interesting discussion, again like most topics you made your video's about. On leopard geckos, I did co-habit three females because many people claimed it was okey. They had a big enclosure (100x50x50 cm), multiple hides, several warm and cold spots and a lot of decoration so they could avoid each other if they wanted. First year everything was oke. After a year I started seeing tiny pinprick type wounds on one but very tiny so almost not vissible and noticed she was hiding a lot. One other started staying behind in growth. But I never really saw something happening like fighting. Not till one time in the middle of night night because of sleeping problem I passed the terrarium and I saw one attack actively atack the others and the others reacting visibly scared to death. I immediatly that night seperated them. Unfortunaly the one that stayed behind never picked up again and died some months later. Now three years later if the two meet outside their terrarium one still visibly flinces if she sees the other one, and doesn't dare to come close to her. I will never co-hab gecko's again, or any other reptile unless it's proven they live in groups in nature like garter snakes.
Thanks for listening and sharing your experience. Linda!
Thanks for sharing
Thank you for watching!
Welsh Morphology here. I have co-habbed several species for years. Iguana species, gecko species, skinks and some snake species. I cannot believe the backlash people have for doing it. Death threats for me.... Francis ROCKS!!
Thank you for listening!
Same i cohab 2 clutchmate female geckos and get death threats weekly if not daily
@@evo7126 wat?! Curious, where are you posting them online that produces that response?
Sigh, people. New to it but already jaded by how unfriendly parts of it feels -- where animal welfare is used in a way to justify sht human behavior to the harm of all (tho same problem exists in other communities).
@@hefoxed reddit :/
@@evo7126 ah, I was guessing Facebook. Sigh that makes more sense, anonymity brings out worse in folk sometimes. Bleh!
Something I think would have been nice to touch more on is where can people openly discuss this as there is so much negativity and rules against even talking about it that it makes it harder to do it safer.
We need a part two, man!
Good idea!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Thanks for the reply man, looking forward to it if it happens.
I really like this content of having intelligent and experienced members of the community coming together and sharing their knowledge, so needless to say I've gone through all the podcasts on your channel! Do you have any recommendations on where to find some more content similar to yours? Like, educational/thought-provoking reptile-oriented podcasts? Thank you, and you're doing awesome work!
Thanks for the kind words! As far as other shows... of course I am biased to the other shows on the Animals at Home Network? Have you checked them out? www.animalsathomenetwork.com/
Other than that, Morelia Python Radio has some great discussions, Snake Talk, AmphibiCast are great as well! I'm sure I am missing some!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast I actually haven't, but you can guarantee I will be now! Definitely gonna pop those other suggestions into my Spotify playlist too. Thank you so much for sharing!
I learned a lot in this episode especially since I’m considering cohabiting two female gargoyle geckos in a large PVC cage. I have a thought that's in line with the conversation about allowing your reptiles to breed since that is a natural/instinctive behavior that many reptiles are generally deprived of. What about their inherent instinctual desire to hunt for food. This is something many keepers do not allow because of the risk/reward benefits. If you are truly trying to simulate nature as closely as possible in terms of cohabitation, lighting, heating, enrichment, etc. it would seem like feeding frozen thawed food is an extremely unnatural way to eat. I have never fed live to my ball pythons but I do feed live crickets to my gargoyle gecko. When I put a cricket in her viv she exhibits the most animated and engaging behavior that I ever see from her. I can tell this is absolutely enriching to her and I’m fascinated by her hunting skills. There are plenty of people who only tong feed crickets or move them to feed because of concerns that their gecko might potentially be bitten by a cricket that didn’t get eaten. This is similar to the debate of weighing risks in regards to cohabitation. Nobody wants their reptile injured or killed by a prey item or an animal it is cohabited with, so where do we draw the line in terms of truly providing a complete naturalistic environment for our precious reptiles to live in?
Thank you for listening Danielle! I’m glad you enjoyed the episode. And that is a great point, making something overly safe (either an animal, or child for that matter) is most of the time harmful. A variety of experiences, enrichment, and moderate amounts of stress are necessary for a being to thrive!
What up guys!!!
I have cohab Agkistrodon piscivorus for 4 years now. No problem
Animals at home did a video about your boa and posted it on a forum and compared it to a breeder rack but it was better than most breeder racks due to size and lighting alone
Thanks, Gavin!
Just got past the half hour mark on the discussion and remembered something that i snapped up during my frequent visits to a reptile zoo when I was a kid.
This is both annecdotal and coming from someone, who doesnt actually keep or has kept reptiles, but has probably around 20 years of keeping fish at this point.
Somebody surrendered a snapping turtle to the reptile zoo i went to with my parents on a regular basis, which put them in quite a pickle, as turtles (according to the zoos employees) likely have salmonella on their shell, which is dangerous to snakes and lizards alike.
So they tried to keep it in the pond in front of their zoo, which resulted in it escaping into the neighbourhood multiple times.
After accepting that this wouldnt work long term, they tried cohabbing it with the only reptiles they had on display and knew to be immune to salmonella.
Which was their group of adult nile crocodiles.
No prizes for guessing how that ended...
But the emphasis on biosecurity reminded me of this unfortunate story.
Cohabbing fish (which I do actually have experience in keeping) can also be a pain in the a**.
You gotta keep the general agression levels of all species in mind.
I have two fishtanks, which are stocked with fish that for the most part wouldnt work in the other tank.
And even my generally more peaceful fish like my emperor tetras get into fights all the time, to the point that the dominant male will claim most of the 350 l tank as his territory when there were few individuals.
However they are quite prolific in my tank, so much so, that I went from about 15 individuals to about 70 or even more at this point.
But the aggression is much more spread out and it puts much less stress on any given individual.
But mitigating stress through conflicts by "overstocking" just isnt something that is plausible for any reptile im aware of.
Oh yes, I remember in my Cichlid days having to deal with fish, bullying each other all the time! It is definitely a struggle. And, like I said, trying to spread out aggression via high numbers is definitely not practical with Reptiles
When you're referencing cohabbing with rattlesnakes and Thamnophis is that just in reference to hibernaculums and mating season or does it go beyond that?
I co-habbed my garter snakes when I had them but I never felt safe doing that with Sistrurus--I didn't want to have to keep track of a second snake when I was hooking one out for cage maintenance.
59:29 they lern and they lern fast especially with food I involved 😅
Tokay Gecko benefit from housing together in a large enough enclosure. I tongue feed two wild parents. The 3 off spring watched this behavior and adjusted well to the habit. The young spend most of the day on the glass and have encourage wild dad to spend more time on the glass. He can now be tongue fed while on the glass of the enclosure, but he’s also still skittish.
The dad groups up with one baby I believe is a female. The dad nipped one baby’s tail, assuming that’s a male baby. The 3rd just is there, sits on glass unphased most days/nights.
The mom sits in her bamboo most of the time, but has other bamboo options to hide, as do they all. Once the Tokay Geckos adjust they’ll show their personality. I can touch the babies, but not hold. The parents have been held since I caught them.
I have my Barking Tree frogs housed together and would like to separate. To many extra feedings so they all get fed rather than knowing they don’t have to compete bc of individual housing. Poop is also easier to manage I. Smaller numbers for an enclosure
I think that most important factor is the welfare of the animal and that wasn't heavily discussed. There's a lot about examples of social behavior in reptiles, dos and don'ts, example success stories, but I don't think the case was strongly made that this is in the best interest of the animal in even a significant minority of animals.
The dots were there, just not well connected. IF we see social behavior and social learning in reptiles THEN it follows that cohabitation for those species is beneficial but that specific connection wasn't really made.
The significance here is there are absolutely cons involved here from an animal welfare standpoint and I think that was glossed over a bit (Francis seemed to hit on that they most, kudos to him). An earnest cost-benefit analysis needs to be done in any decisions on this front, imo.
Something for us to cover next time! Thank you for listening and providing the feedback
My bearded dragon goes crazy when I put crickets into the plastic cup to dust them , I can be on the other side of the room and I will notice him scratching and licking the glass
How did you get Christopher Hitchens on the podcast?? I’m impressed!
😂😂😂
My ball pythons are pretty social they love to explore and when they're out of the enclosures they tend to be very chill resting on my shoulders and other times they like exploring and I keep 2-3 of the same sex in the same enclosure and there has been no problems and 2 of them are adult pythons in a 48x48x18 setup with a xxxL hide on each side with plenty of space to roam and stretch out
Great video! Would love to join a round table session if your ever short of volunteers 👍
Thanks for watching, Oliver! Awesome, that would be great. Maybe at some point in the future I’ll do a zookeeper themed round table
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast sounds good obviously I have my own collection of 10 reptiles so I’d be happy to contribute on topics like this 👍
Can you have time stamps for your older videos?
Yes! I’m going to try and go back through all the episodes this summer and do that
Red-footed tortoises are gregarious in the wild and in captivity. I’ve been cohabiting a herd of seven torts without any issues. No bullying or aggression, some species do fine when they cohabit harmoniously 👌🏻
Excellent example! I hadn’t even thought about tortoises, but they are very commonly kept in harmonious communities
After being against cohabbing most species for years, I've decided I'm going to give it a try with my female Bredl's. I'm hoping it will improve her extreme nervousness, a trait that is unusual for this species. I still want to talk with more keepers that have tried it, and I want to finish reading "The Secret Social Lives of Reptiles" before I give it a go, however. Fingers crossed.
Good luck! I'm sure Lori would be happy to provide any guidance you need as well. I believe she has a few pairs of bredl's co-habbed!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast thanks. I'll reach out to her.
I am a turtle FANATIC… (but I love ALL reptiles!!!) specifically Snapping turtles. I am a (literally) life-long keeper of Common Snapping turtles.
I have only had the honor of keeping ALLIGATOR Snapping turtles for about the past 10 years.
•••There is NO DOUBT that ALLIGATOR Snapping turtles ARE SOCIAL. (In MY experience!)•••
I usually feed them commercial food sticks, & they ALL WAIT for the others before they start eating. They usually bury themselves in the sand, & ALL of them become aware food is present, & they will all poke up their heads & OBVIOUSLY look around for the others, & all 3 must visually SEE each others ALL raised up, prepared to bite the food, BUT, if they don’t see EVERYONE, they won’t take a bite of the food…!!!
Eventually, one will start eating. THEN the others will immediately start eating! ALL at once!
OFTEN, they will all 3 see food (& I give all three the exact same food presentation (like 2 food sticks per animal) & they will all take their 2 sticks, & then move together so they are usually touching each other, or are stacked on top of each other’s shells. Often, they will literally have their necks (or neck tubicule ‘hairs’🙂) touching or they will NOT eat!!
•Another example, ALL of my Alligator Snapping turtles will go on a food strike & stop eating & will hide & not even acknowledge food IF they are separated from each other for permanent living….
I have tried to separate them as they have grown bigger, & same thing ALWAYS happens!! They will CLEARLY be LOOKING for the others when they detect the food sticks, but again, will NEVER take a bite, & eventually will ‘go back down’ & hide again. (Alligator Snappers are VERY, VERY SHY, & are very timid feeders… ANY slight disruption (like me dropping something outside the tank & making noise, or someone slamming a car door, or a slight movement above them or a TINY bump on the tank…. & then, IF together, one will suck down, & the others will immediately do the same. THEN, they all will either STOP the feeding session, or ONLY resume if ONE raises up again to eat. (aka, they start over!!🙂)
••ALSO, ALL 3 turtles will almost ALWAYS be TOUCHING EACH OTHER at ALL TIMES during their normal daily existence. Be it only the tail tips touching another’s tail or shell, or ALL 3 PILED ON TOP of each other, or a foot touching a neck, or one laying on top of the other 2, etc!!!
& I don’t care how much folks call me CRAZY (& they DO…. It’s my poor 2 kids that have the listen to me being excited about them, & they ARE bored!!! 🤣 everyone I know does NOT like reptiles, & is 100% bored of them/me, since I apparently ONLY talk about turtles!!)
ALSO, no matter HOW BIG of an enclosure I give them, they ALWAYS are in a little pile together!! & it is ADORABLE & SO fascinating & interesting!!!
•NOW, Common Snapping turtles (i could talk about this for hours- to keep it shorter-) seem to love groups, compared to single isolation) for a couple years from hatchling up till about 3 years old… THEN they get a bit rowdy with each other…. BUT, even after ALL are separated when older, they CLEARLY recognize each other when they see each other!!! (But soon they get rowdy again & chase each other!!)🤣
I could write a book about how Common Snappers LEARN, remember, accept various training/conditioning, & how they VISUALLY recognize people & things, & ALSO do so by HEARING & sound alone!!
It is very fascinating to learn this about SO many species here, I had NO idea!!!
SO interesting, & everyday I learn something NEW about them!!!🥰🥰🐢
I do really like this podcast but is it necessary to have a breakdown of the upcoming episode every time? I always skip it. Providing the title is appropriate and you use the thumbnail for additional detail or vice versa people should know what they are getting in too. Just a thought. I'll listen to anything with francis in lol. Cheers
Thanks for the feedback! I always get a 50/50 response when I ask about the “upcoming” preview. I’ll try a few without it 👌🏼
I would like to add something to the list of things you should not do when cohabbing: Make sure the animals won't eat each other. So don't cohab pacman frogs, I see this done way to often especially in pet stores. Pacman frogs eat anything, even food items that are almost the same size as them. And even if something is too big to eat they will probably try to anyway. It is very likely that one individual will either actually eat the other or they will injure them and/or themselves when trying. And make sure even with other species that the animals are roughly a similar size, if they are not strict herbivores. Because many animals for example leopard geckos are opportunistic feeders. Leopard geckos are known to be canibalistic and eat young hatchlings. Even species like mourning geckos, who normally leave their offspring alone do sometimes attack them, nip at them or even eat them. (It can be done succesfully, I made good experiences with it but it's still something you need to be aware of) So be carefull!
Great point! Thank you for listening
I just tried to share your video in a Facebook leopard gecko group and they would not let me share it which is so wrong because that means they're only wanting people to think you cannot cohabitate animals I actually put a leopard gecko that someone rehome to me that has MBD and could not eat on its own I put it in with another female and it watched her eat and I swear the next day she was eating never had eight on her own her whole life until was rehomed with another female leopard gecko so for those people who banned me from their group I just wish they would watch this video and would have let me speak
Well, thanks for trying to share it anyway! As you know, Facebook groups can be very black-and-white with their policies. It’s a shame
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast yeah I just feel bad for all the people in that group because she just kept good information from them it wasn't about me or her it was about everybody else's opinion
This maybe common sense. Predatory animals must be well feed. I've had three sets of snakes living together and my only tip I would have is have a set routine on feeding and don't miss it. If it's a single animal you can miss a day week or month but with 2 3 or 5 in the same Viv always other food even if you think it won't eat. Many thanks and good luck everyone.
Thanks for adding that tip, James! I don’t think that’s common sense, especially because so many people tend to fast their snakes, as you mentioned. So, definitely something that cohabitors should keep in mind!
Check my videos out I cohab most of my reptiles and amphibians without any problems the most important part is when feeding you have to watch them carefully or separate them during feeding but I’ve had great success with cohabitation for years and it’s honestly more fulfilling watching your pets interact together and believe it’s better on your pet to not be alone and have that enrichment but this doesn’t always work so you have to be prepared for another enclosure or have hefty vet bills from fighting but definitely watch my videos I’d greatly appreciate it
Awesome! I will check out your video
Really appreciate it and love the informative videos maybe one day I’ll be on one of your videos I’ve been working with reptiles and amphibians since I was a kid and wouldn’t want to do anything else but honestly I think it’s amazing getting the best reptile minds in the hobby together and talk about these amazing animals so that we can all teach and learn from one another we definitely need more of this in the hobby
About enclosure sizes. There is (at least in Sweden) hard legislation on recommended minimum size requirements, based on current animal length and if the animal is terrestrial or arboreal. Adding a second animal = 2x that minimum requirement, to start of with. Going bigger is never bad either.
Do all countries have this legislation and are they the same? Unfortunately not.
One thing to keep in mind, I believe, is knowing if the cohabitation in the wild is a temporary behavior during a specific period, say brumation, where a large number of individuals have the common goal of survival during winter and at breeding, like many European reptiles and amphibians, or if they are truly social on a daily basis outside these specific periods like with Shingleback lizards the mate for life and follow each other around for prolonged periods of time every year, or if a group of reptiles live in family groups for years, like egernia skinks and Pygmy blue tongues.
Lastly, obvious predators and obvious prey shouldn’t cohabitate as this will result in only one outcome and will then evidently trespass into “live feeding” and in turn cruelty to animals.
Wow. Awesome discussion guys, super interesting stuff 😁
Thank you for listening, glad you enjoyed it!