Enrichment for Reptiles & My Opinion of Brian Barczyk | The Animals at Home Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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Today's episode is all about environmental enrichment for your reptiles! In the episode I layout the thought process I used when trying to determine if the statement below is true or false.
Reptiles require environmental enrichment in order to reach a maximum level of health in captivity. It is our duty as owners to provide that.
In the episode, I share plenty of academic sources that support the claim in the above statement. After you have listened to this episode you will have a clear understanding of what environmental enrichment means, you'll be able to make an educated decision on whether or not you feel enrichment is important and you'll come away with a few key ways to include enrichment into your animal's enclosure.
I tried to be as thorough as possible during this show. My hope is that you are able to form your own thoughts and opinions on the subject (either for or against my claim), which will then allow you to join the discussion!
This is a complicated matter and the more we discuss it, the better. I do also discuss why I believe the reptile hobby has moved away from enriching and towards industrial style care and what we can do about it. I mention the influence Brian Barczyk has had on the hobby, in both a critical and complementary way.
ACADEMIC & VIDEO SOURCES MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
WILIKINSON, S. (2015). Reptile Wellness Management. Veterinary Clinics of North America: Exotic Animal Practice, 18(2), 281-304. ( www.sciencedir...)
JOHN V. ROSSI, Chapter 4 - General Husbandry and Management, Editor(s): Douglas R. Mader, Reptile Medicine and Surgery (Second Edition), W.B. Saunders, 2006, Pages 25-41, ISBN 9780721693279 (www.sciencedire...)
ALMLI, L., & BURGHARDT, G. (2006). Environmental Enrichment Alters the Behavioral Profile of Ratsnakes (Elaphe). Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science, 9(2), 85-109. (www.tandfonlin...)
Meredith J. Bashaw, Mallory D. Gibson, Devan M. Schowe, Abigail S. Kucher, Does enrichment improve reptile welfare? Leopard geckos (Eublepharis macularius) respond to five types of environmental enrichment, Applied Animal Behaviour Science, Volume 184, 2016, Pages 150-160, ISSN 0168-1591 (www.sciencedire...)
Burghardt, Gordon M., Environmental enrichment and cognitive complexity in reptiles and amphibians: Concepts, review, and implications for captive populations. Applied Animal Behaviour Science , Volume 147 , Issue 3 , 286 - 298. (www.sciencedir...)
Heidi Hellmuth, Lauren Augustine, Barbara Watkins, Katharine Hope, Using Operant Conditioning and Desensitization to Facilitate Veterinary Care with Captive Reptiles, Veterinary Clinics of North America: Exotic Animal Practice, Volume 15, Issue 3, 2012, Pages 425-443, ISSN 1094-9194, ISBN 9781455749683, (www.sciencedire...)
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ABOUT DILLON:
Welcome to Animals at Home! My name is Dillon and I am the creator of most of the content found on this site. I have been in the reptile hobby for over a decade. I have been passionate about animals as far back as I can remember. My goal with the content I produce is the following:
Encourage hobbyists to participate in conservation efforts by way of providing interesting content about animals in the wild.
Educate the younger generation of young pet hobbyists and help inspire a future role as a researcher or conservationist.
Entertain! I.e. provide interesting content for those who just want to learn more about the creatures we share the Earth with!
snake discovery does a good job at keeping snakes in a rack environment. They use substrate bedding (not paper), have more space than some breeders recommend a snake have in a rack, and they provide their snakes with different objects to feel and slither on (rather than just having a water bowl). Each snake is different, whether it is the individual snake or the species. Snake discovery takes this into account when deciding how they keep their snakes. For example, their garters are housed in a 40 gallon aquarium with lighting and a more semi-arboreal setup due to the active and gregarious nature of the garters. I personally do have certain snakes in a rack system and others in large enclosures. My snakes that are in racks do have different substrates, pvc, wood, brush, etc. to keep them "happy". Hope everyone can take something away from this podcast!
Thanks for comment! Totally agree, keeping an animal in a tub doesn’t mean you can’t offer enrichment. Some animals prefer a darker, quieter space so a tub set up is preferable. But like you said, you can still provide enrichment through natural substrate and objects to interact with. Very good point, and I’m not sure I made that clear in the show now that I think about it. I don’t have an issue with enriched tubs, I do have an issue with “plain tubs” (I.e. newspaper, water dish).
i have a whole essay on why snake discovrry is bad
@@juju2bockyy explain please, i personally think they are the best ever (that I have watched, i have not seen all of the reptile chnnels), and take great care of their animals but i would love to hear the opinion and reason of somebody that doesnt agree. I kniw thos comment was made nine months ago but im still curious, so i understand if u dont answer or sonething)
@@juju2bockyy I would love to hear your opinion as well. I don’t Love the rack systems but Snake Discovery seems to do it much more humanely than many others I’ve seen.
Nicely done Dillon. You really did an excellent job discussing this issue. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the reptile market as a whole and how the industrial side might begin to incorporate enrichment. The direction in the hobby has certainly shifted from "what works" to "what is best" which is great and right in line with this podcast. Obviously some industrial breeders will have to fade away or operate underground if the moral standard does move to enrichment as a norm. How do you think they will survive? What do you think the impact will be on production capabilities and how might that impact the other parts of the hobby like the reptile supply companies and exotic veterinarians if say enrichment takes more time and money and therefore less animals are kept, bred, and produced.
Thanks for listening, TC! Glad you enjoyed it! Hmm... those are some really interesting points/questions. Because you are right, increased enrichment almost certainly means a decrease in production (obviously you experience that with your personal breeding operation). The supply and demand issue is very interesting... Clearly, the animal should come first BUT having said that, I have not thought about the further impact that might have on businesses within the hobby that rely on a certain amount of volume to stay afloat. Time to put the thinking cap back on :)
Was nodding my head the entire podcast! The way you went into that 10% that ball pythons AREN'T in hiding is just important as the 90% made complete sense.
I love your mindset on less animals, more care!
Great to listen to!
Thank you for listening! This is a really old episode, I hope you have a chance to listen to some newer episodes. I have a feeling you will really enjoy it.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast oh, I have! Now I'm digging deeper into your older podcasts. This has aged very well, my friend.
Keep doin your thing!
I like the old music better..Anyway,thanks for the talk.I have done this with pets,such as rats,rabbits,and birds.
Thank you for watching/listening to an old episode! Interesting to know you like this music better, maybe I should really use it at some point
Happy you covered this topic and well explained from both sides. I fully agree that enrichment does do well for all animals including ball pythons. The fact that they can be used to handling and even the most scared defensive snakes after beeing handled several times don't ball up but go straight to exploring mode when you take them out already shows they can learn. How else do they know that beeing taken out is oke and even fun?! All my snakes when out (medium keeper, I have 21 snakes if which 16 ball pythons ) love to explore when they come out and none show the typical pet rock attitude they are known for. One female ball python of almost three years is in a terrarium with all rocks and branches climbs even till now like a arboreal snake. She gives me a full show every night. Not all are this active but not all are not. And every single one come out of their hide at night and lay down on their piece of cork. Don't know why but every snake does and even our bearded dragon and blue tongue skink like their cork. I hardly ever have a ball python refusing food and even the 1000 gram wall seem to pas without problem. Our Sonora and Nicaragua boa's like to bury in substrate, also not something they are known for. To make a long story short, I really believe that there is more in to them than we give them credit for. I understand the limitations as a large scale breeder but it's good to keep an open mind and not simply dismiss all pro enrichment ideas because you can't give it. I think that Snake discovery's way indeed gives a nice compromise between space and needs of an animal. Ps cork in an oven at 200 celcius for 10 minutes will also take care of bacteria ect.
Thank you for listening! Reptiles are way more intelligent than we give them credit for. You’ll have to check out my episode with a Lori Torrini.
Great podcast. Honestly when I got my ball python I was surprised just how much he explored his enclosure. He doesn't do it alot but when he does he is quite active. I haven't found the pet rock metaphor to be true at all.
Yeah exactly! I mean yes... they well stay stationary for extended periods of time but they do explore and investigate quite often as well
Haha yes very true! FB doesn’t have the best info. It’s better to, like you said, study your own animal
It's been a while since this was posted, but to tag on to the last bit where you're discussing hook training your reptiles - there's now some evidence that snakes can discriminate between familiar and unfamiliar scents (but only do so when enriched!) So they're a strong possibility they can (vaugely at least) tell who you are!
Yes, Absolutely! I love that this field of information is expanding so quickly
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast For sure! It's wonderful. Have you seen the behavioural evaluation of ball pythons kept in racks vs enriched vivariums too? Between those two studies last year, it definitely feels like studies on reptile enrichment (and specifically snake enrichment) is rapidly advancing now!
Yes, I did see that report. It was excellent! It’s awesome to see. The second last episode I released of the podcast we discuss reptile intelligence, if you haven’t seen that episode yet, you’ll have to check it out. I think you’ll enjoy it!
I've been meaning to check out your podcast for a while but I wasn't sure how I'd fare with it (I struggle with focusing on them usually!) so I've only just started listening, but I'm picking out a few episodes that really appeal to my interests. I'll definitely check that one out! I'm actually currently finishing up my dissertation on how standards of husbandry affect the behavioural répertoire of leopard geckos, so finding additional papers discussing the themes I'm exploring is incredibly useful too!
That sounds really interesting. You’ll have to keep me in the loop on that! I’d love to chat more about the dissertation once it’s done. I am easily reached via email (it’s in the description)
I really appreciate you putting this out. It’s great to hear others open to having a productive conversation about something so important. I hope you keep the posts coming. Be well.
Thanks for listening and for the positive feedback! I definitely plan to keep making them👍🏼
Solid points dude. Enrichment for any animal is much more important than the reptile hobby lets on.
I love seeing my gecko come out to investigate what I'm doing in his enclosure and seeing my snake comfortable enough to sit out in the open while soaking up some UVB always makes me smile.
Hope to see this channel grow! Keep up the good work!
Thanks, Rob! Totally agree with what you’ve said. Thanks for listening!
Your work is awesome! So glad that TC (Reptile Mountain) mentioned you! Truly great
Thank you very much! Appreciate that 👌🏼
Yikes! So glad I don’t have snakes! I have been keeping lizards as part of my family for 34 years! I see people putting lizards in basements, in dark rooms under artificial light. I can tell you this, none of my lizards prefer their enclosures no matter how big…they want out, they want to sit by windows, interact with their human family and they want all the luxuries of domestic living. Their wild ways have reduced to..give me what you have so now each of my 24 lizards have blankets and many have actual beds and mattresses to sleep on. After doing this for decades I determined animals adjust to what their environment is..the old nature vs nurture argument. My lizards need what all lizards need and they get it BUT domestic lizards definitely behave in ways you will never see their wild lizards do.
I just found your podcast today and I am really impressed by your willingness to look up research and incorporate that knowledge to your animals. Far to often people are a bit overwhelmed or intimated by scientific research and its great that you can provide this information to people! You stuck to the facts, extrapolated the info, and expressed your own opinions in a respectful way! I will definitely be listen to the rest of your episodes!
Hi Leilani, thank you very much for the positive feedback! I am glad you enjoyed this episode. I hope you find some value in the other episodes I've recorded :) definitely feel free to reach out to me via email or Instagram DM with any questions or feedback about the show! :)
This was a really good listen. I think you're absolutely right when you're speculating that Brian's perspective is changing. I've noticed that too.
I’m glad you enjoyed it!
Wonderful podcast. Informative. It is important to enrich the environment of any animal, reptiles included. Thanks for bringing this to the forefront in an objective way.
Thank you for listening! Just hoping to get the conservation started!
Loved listening to this as with all other podcasts I've heard on here so far. Honestly agree with a ton of points and also enlightened on a lot of topics I had little idea about.
Just hearing about that kind of common poorly created snake "enclosure" really struck a chord and is so depressing, albeit absolutely important, to be reminded this goes on. Would these people put a child in a room with a bowl of water and a barely anything else? Why would you do this with a pet?! Look how people spoil their cats and dogs. Why is it so different for other animals particularly reptiles.
These podcasts really are brilliant! Maybe reaching out to zoos, pet store chains, even wildlife TV show hosts, would be awesome and I'd bet they'd more than happy to do so.
Thanks for listening, love the feedback! And great point about people spoiling there dogs/cats, so true!
Thanks for an excellent talk: very balanced. Of course, species specific behaviour needs to be well understood to provide optimum captive care. One of my snakes is a jungle carpet python. He lives in a 4ft wide by 2ft deep by 3ft high viv. The height not only gives him plenty of climbing facility, but also a very wide temperature gradient on the vertical plane. He stays in one of his hides at ground level maybe for half the time (except after feeding), and for the other half he moves around in the branches, or basks in various places high up. If he were in a box with restricted height, he would get far less exercise and stimulation. QED.....!
Thanks for listening! 👍🏼 glad you enjoyed it. The animals behaviors will always point us in the right direction!
Industrial breeding is similar to “puppy mills”. Animals left in crates for a lifetime. No enrichment.
Reptiles are not mammals. The importance of space, socializing, and enrichment for mammals is great. Reptiles do not possess the parts of the brain that mammals do that make any of these things important or helpful to the health of the animal. Industrial breeders are nothing like puppy mills because industrial breeders are providing the safest, sterile environments their animals could be in. Puppy mills are sacrificing the happiness and health of the animal to pump out large quantities of poor quality animals.
Hello Dillon! I am just starting to get interested in your podcast since I heard about it on Tom's Big Spiders. Along with tarantulas, scorpions, and other arachnids, I also own a corn snake I got from my neice! She was 14 and decided she couldn't take care of it anymore and I just fell in love with her! We have no idea how old she is but she's about 5 feet long. During this podcast you mentioned snakes' abilities to learn. Well this corn snake I have was trained by the owner before my niece to go to the bathroom outside ONLY! She will not go to the bathroom in her cage! So we take her out 1 or 2 times a week to go slither through the grass and do her business. She even prefers nice, soft grass as opposed to dead grass or dirt! Also, isn't there data about snakes learning when they are going to be fed when you feed them in a separate container versus feeding them in their cage? I'm super new to snakes so let me know if I'm off in any way. Anyways, I just thought I would chime in about my snake I have to take for a walk so she can do her business! Awesome podcast!
Hi Amy, thank you very much for listening! I’m glad you are enjoying the show so far. I’ve actually heard of snakes exhibiting that behaviour in the past. Very interesting, and convenient! Haha.
As far as feeding in a separate tub goes, it’s hard to say. In general most keepers will recommend that you feed in the same enclosure that they live in because the stress of moving them to the feeding tub can have a negative impact (Often this is when accidental bites happen, and the stress of the mood could cause regurgitation). I would certainly assume however that if a snake is always fed in one area it will start to correlate that area with being fed i.e. develop a conditioned response
You should check out the episodes I recorded with Reptelligence (ep #27 & #39 ), I think you’ll like them quite a lot!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Thanks for the reply! I guess my snake has always been fed in a tub so she's a bit used to it. I do make sure I wash my hands many times during the feeding process so I don't smell like mouse! I listen while at work (I'm an embryologist so long hours in the lab are perfect for podcasts) and I'm almost to episode 27 so I'm excited to listen to those ones!
Great podcast. This topic is very important and I’m happy to see an increase in people talking about better quality care for our reptiles. The reptarium has definitely been a positive change for Barczyk and his view on keeping reptiles. His best quote lately has been comparing how his animals in the reptarium will voluntarily go back in to their enclosures versus fighting him when he tried getting them back in to their old sterile enclosures.
Glad you enjoyed the show, I think this topic is going to just keep getting more and more popular. Yes I totally agree... I was so tempted to add that quote into this episode but I had already finalized it and uploaded it to RUclips so I decided against it. It was very interesting to hear him say that
My problem with Brian is that he hides behind that "positive animal lover" image.
Brian believes in positivity so he doesn't answer what he regards as negative comments. I personally disagree with him on many levels, don't owe snakes but I owe geckos and I know that every animal needs some sort of enrichment, he does the minimum because he treats his animals as business not hobby. If you will challenge him with constructive criticism he wont answer and that's not ok when he "educates" people in wrong way. I ran into problems in the past with my geckos because of advise he gave me in one of his videos, he stated leos THRIVE in group housing which is completely untrue, they can co-exist but its not without consequences. There is a high risk in them picking up cryptosporidium varanae and they will be dominating each other.
Brain only shows what he want people to see, he doesn't show 3 week old geckos being shipped in one container in hundreds going to Petco where half of them doesn't even make it. Also he breads enigmas which is bad enough in itself as they come with deformations and syndrome. Truth is he doesn't even care about thousands of animals he has, he keeps them alive and somewhat healthy because he makes money of breeding them but they have zero enrichment and often are suffering. But most people buy that BS from him because - "He is so positive and says he loves animals".
I breed geckos myself but I prefer to give gecko for free to proper keeper I know than sell it for 50e or 100e to someone who doesn't have a clue and im sure will neglect the animal. Same with pet stores, not a chance I would ever let any of them have any of my hatchlings. Gave myself word long time ago and will always stick to one rule:
ITS OK TO MAKE MONEY OF GECKOS, ITS JUST NOT OK TO MAKE GECKOS FOR MONEY.
I hear what you’re saying, I completely agree that the breeding industry (and morph production) has caused the hobby to shift far away from animal welfare in order to make money. My hope is that a cultural shift will take place towards quality over quantity. The Reptarium (hopefully) will influence Brian to re-think some of his business practices. Certainly now he is exposing people to better care and enrichment on a daily basis via the vlog/Reptarium. I have talked to people who know him personally and he is the same person on and off camera, but he is also a successful businessman which does influence his actions.
OMG !!! Brian and I have been great friends for over 15 years now and we met on Myspace before RUclips or Facebook and I still consider him to be a great friend :) My huge male Coastal Carpet Python at 11+ feet named Chewy actually came from Brian named after Chewy that used to work at BHB Reptiles :o) It's so wrong to keep snakes caged all of the time they require an active environment to enhance their mental capacity !! My 23 snakes spend more of their time outdoors and outside of their enclosures than they spend caged !!!
I'd also like to add, listen to your animals by learning to speak their language. You don't have to observe them in the wild, observe them at home. Snake hiding under you paper? He probably would appreciate a hide or opaque tub vs clear. Snake soaking a lot? He probably doesn't have high enough humidity or has parasites. They may not have mammal feelings, but their instincts are incredible and they know what they need and find a way, you just need to pay attention.
100% agreement here! Something I mention quite often on the show. Study your animal! Thanks for listening.
Once I got my basic's down the first thing I started looking into was bioactive vivariums. I relate the sterile, paper towel setups to humans living in a empty closet. Even if you think these animals don't think like use and need to fill their brains with tasks and ideas, imagine never even getting a new smell in your life. I will add small amounts of new mosses and substrates just to get the brains working and for them to start thinking and becoming more active. You have to look at all animals through their perspective. How they live and function, we all live off basic habits like how tortoises will walk and forage just nibbling and wandering. Im even looking into getting a j.w holle roller to put treats in for my skink to push and try and get snails out of when he's out of tank with me to get his brain going.
I could go on and on but you need to stimulate them somehow. Please try and think from your animals point of view
Yes, I totally agree! A variation in conditions is crucial to well-being. That is just as true For reptiles as it is for humans
Very informative! I'm definitely going to start target training my leopard gecko who hates me, and I'll try to create more enrichment for my baby hognose :) (a lot of breeders keep snakes that naturally dig(like hognose) on paper towels without any hides, which just sucks)
Awesome to hear! Glad you enjoyed the show. You’ll have to check out the episode with Emily from Snake Discovery, she recommends some great enrichment for snakes (she works with hognose as well)
Great podcast, and great presentation and argument of the subject. I am really glad and happy to hear the academic side of the hobby, and I think it is truly amazing and necessary that you are bringing academics and science into reptile keeping.
I also felt your presentation of what is fact and what is your opinion to be very fair and balanced, as well as your opinion of Brian, and the evidence your provided for your opinion.
My only suggestion is you may need to double check what RUclips’s rules or whatever copyright laws there might be, in regards of you using a clip of someone else talking in your video. You have need written or at least spoken consent from that person, especially if it deals with a controversial subject. Just something to watch out of, other than that, everything is great!
Keep up the good work, good luck, and know your hard work is greatly appreciated!
Thanks for listening, Timothy! I am glad you enjoyed it, always great to hear from others that think about reptile keeping in the same way I do! And thank you for the suggestions as well, the clips I used should fall under Fair Use (ruclips.net/user/ytabout/copyright/fair-use/#yt-copyright-protection), I say "should" because it can be slightly subjective, but typically commentary is acceptable. Thanks again for the support, really appreactiate it!!
21:18 - "Goal hole". Don't think my girlfriend is going to like me using that term. But what can ya do.
Tremendous. Very much enjoyed this. Really well presented. Openly honest (including with yourself) about your position. You can see perspective and play devil's advocate in a fair and reasonable way. You have a bias as we all do, but you openly lay it out there and can still steel man.
Also you're encouraging change and praising improvement in areas (or at least expressing approval), instead of just shaming and shitting on people. The latter of which, is of course far less effective (like with Brian and his reactions to seeing some of his animals in their new enclosures. It's definitely an interesting thing to notice and point out. Brian thinking about that, will do a lot more than 1000 people shitting on him).
These are all some good skills to have.
Alright, you've inspired me to up the enrichment program! (there already was enrichment, but it could be better, without adding too much cleaning work due to rather unnecessary human-things).
Time to deck out her enclosure with vinyl flooring (for me at least lol). More liberal with the aspen (she used to tunnel when young, maybe she will again). Time for some big ass thick branches so she can climb a bit. Got at least 1.5 foot of height to work with. Which isn't so bad for a Spotted Python (just gotta make sure she doesn't get too close to the CHE). They are semi-arboreal and it's surely the biggest thing that she would benefit from. She already tries to climb the walls and stuff sometimes.
Been meaning to get round to it, but I'm certainly a chronic procrastinator. Gonna go bigger with the climbing than I was though.
😂😂 yes... goal hole is an awkward statement. Glad you enjoyed this one! Sounds like you have an awesome plan to add more enrichment to your enclosure. I love watching my snakes climbing on branches, so interesting to watch!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast - I'm reluctant to drill holes in my enclosure, but with enough certainty that the setup is good, I probably will at some point. Love how your branches are mounted. In the mean time I'll lay them on the ground but still with height.
Annoying that I have to mind the ceramic heat emitter and the set temperature there.
Your heating looks a lot more easygoing.
Ya just play around with it! Eventually you find something that works well for your set up
I’m getting stressed hearing B talk 🤯 flying 200mph
😂
I think that if snakes can’t learn it should still be given an natural environment
Agreed!
I m listening to this again, and have paused to comment on what Brian Barcyk said - snakes spend most of their time hiding and staying still. Quite untrue! Most colubrids, and the majority of elapids are diurnal, are active hunters, and move about a lot. He’s so used to royal pythons that he’s forgotton about all the others!
Yes I agree! Some how he uses Ball pythons behavior as the template for all other snake species... not to mention BP's don't even spend all of their time hiding!
👌👍
Thanks for listening!
I always see this debate the same way ppl see the fish hobby sure u can keep a betta fish in a tiny little plastic container or bowl with no heater no filter no plants just an empty tank and sure it may survive 1 or 2 years but is it happy? It sits in the tank still it doesn't swim around. Now look at bettas who have access to larger tanks filters heaters plants things to swim through maybe a snail or two to watch and look how much they swim and explore and are visibly happy. So can they survive with less sure can they thrive my answer is no. Same goes for reptiles in my book. I feel like for owners reaserch is key always do as much research as humanly possible before bringing home any animal and reptiles of course. No impulse buying. U need to know 100% the care of ur reptiles before bringing it home. I think owners have no excuse not to provide environmental enrichment in this society. I watch Brian have done for ages. I think he has done a Lot of good but I also think he has room to grow like anyone and I think viewers that have watched him for a while have actually seen that growth in him. Which is wonderful to see. I agree that he has changed his mind on certain aspects of his care and enrichment for his animals. It can only be a good thing. In regards to Breeders it is there job to educate there customers on how to provide good care with proper enrichment and not lead them to believe they can keep them as the breeders do. That is something I feel needs improvement. As well as the whole live feeding aspect I feel needs improvement it should not be what breeders tell ppl to feed I feel like live feeding should only be used as a last resort. Just my opinion on that. Loved this podcast! I never miss one :) keep it up!
Completely agree 😄. Thanks for joining in on the conversation!
First, I appreciate your approach to this greatly. I commend you for trying to debate logically and avoid fallacies. You clearly have done research to support your stance, and provide a lot of information and sources to back up what you are saying.
You already agree that feeding live is the poorer choice between f/t and live because of risk vs reward. Why can you not recognize that many other things suggested as "enrichment" are also the poorer choice because of risk vs reward? These are NOT wild animals, they are captive animals, that we want to provide the very best opportunity to thrive. Wild animals die at astronomical rates because nature is harsh. Making sure they are able to be conditioned how to choose between options that are better for their survival is completely unnecessary when the environment they are provided is safe. Substrates used semi-long term or long term are a haven for bacteria and parasites. Many other items like wood, rocks, and decorations are used as permanent items in the enclosure and there is no efficient way to sterilize these on a regular basis. A "simple" environment is much safer, so long as the parameters are kept within the proper ranges and there is some gradient, because paper can replaced daily for pennies and not allow build up of harmful bacteria. "Simple" items in the enclosure that can be either disposed of or sufficiently sterilized because they are made of non-porous plastic or metal is clearly superior to the health of the animal. I see you brought this up in terms of breeders, but even if it's only ONE animal, the same things apply aside from transferring disease from one animal to another. I would argue this sterile environment SHOULD be the norm because it is safer than the alternative whether it is one animal or thousands. It doesn't matter if you have a tub with paper or a terrarium with logs and hides... an impulse buyer that doesn't take the time and money to set up properly is going to end up with a sick animal from garbage husbandry. Tubs and paper are not the problem, education is... and some of the very worst offenders of this "industrial" breeding have a HUGE impact on pet owners by showing them the importance of proper husbandry.
Your entire premise that more movement around the environment equals more healthy is just flawed. When you examine actual measures of health, outside of ignorant impulse buying pet keepers who don't know proper husbandry providing inadequate (not simple) husbandry, what are you left with to support that enrichment makes the animal healthier? As long as the animal does move around the enclosure when it needs to, I don't see the problem. Just because you don't see the animal move doesn't mean it isn't either, ball pythons are nocturnal after all! Also, what about the animals behavior outside of its enclosure? Not only my anecdotal experience, but many of these "industrial" breeders you are talking about as well, you can clearly see by the animals' behaviors when handled that they are active, "healthy" animals by your measure of activity.
Brian's explanation about imparting our own feelings on the animal and what things actually matter to the animal is SPOT ON. These are not mammals. They do not require "enrichment" to be happy because they do not possess the parts of the brain that mammals have that allow them to have "feelings", aspirations, and whatnot. They are very primitive animals with primitive brains that very much revolve around survival and that's it. Yes, they CAN learn, conditioning has nothing to do with feelings, but that doesn't mean that them learning provides them the feelings that it does to animals with more complex brains. The evidence does show that. The "evidence" that "enrichment" equals health hinges on more moving around and problem solving, and when you admit to yourself that isn't actually a measure of health, the entire thing topples.
Thank you for clearly listening to the entire episode before developing an opinion on it, that is a rare occurrence these days!
I certainly do think there is a “risk vs reward” component to providing enrichment to your animal’s environment. Enrichment is not about replicating the animal’s wild environment perfectly. Hard-core bio-active folks might argue that point, but I think the risk of a bio-active enclosure is far too high (for most hobbyists… some obviously take the time and effort to do it properly). This is way I do not recommend a full bio-active setup, I think the risk of mold/bacteria growth is too high unless you really know what you are doing.
However, including décor such as climbing branches, and natural substrate which can be removed and cleaned is a different story (I don’t think I mentioned using permanent/ non-removable décor…although maybe I did?). I understand that natural décor can not be completely sterilized or at least not easily sterilized but I have not seen any academic evidence to support the claim that a reptile’s environment needs to be 100% sterile. Like you mentioned, I believe breeders might be able to make a case here, but I don’t think the average hobbyist can. To be clear, I am NOT suggesting a dirty environment, I am only suggesting the animals do not need to be kept in a clinically sterile environment. I have seen evidence to the contrary, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence from zoo’s and wildlife center's that avoid “over cleaning” to promote health. I’ll see if I can find the paper, but I know there is at least one study out there that shows over-cleaning leads to stress in reptiles due to their environment being overhauled (new smells mostly). For example, some zoo’s will even leave old skin sheds and urate pellets inside the enclosure to induce breeding behavior. Therefore, I believe the risk for using décor that cannot be fully sterilized is much smaller than the reward.
It’s not “movement” around the enclosure that I am equating with level of health… as you know there is plenty of unhealthy movement a reptile can exhibit (pacing, etc.). Instead I am looking at promoting “species specific behavior.” I truly do believe that if your animal is not displaying wild-type behaviors, your setup is lacking in necessary environmental enrichment which can lead to stress. This may be where we disagree? I think you are correct, that I did not make this piece of my argument clear. Movement that correlates with species-specific behavior that also REPLACES abnormal behavior (such as pacing, sedentary, aggression), IS healthier due to the animal being less stressed (see “How to access stress in reptiles, Warwick”).
You are correct, that these are not wild animals, but they are not domesticated animals either. In my opinion we owe it to the animals we own to provide them with an experience that has elements of what they are genetically pre-disposed to deal with in the wild. Animals that are not able to exhibit some of their natural behaviors in captivity develop chronic stress issues and therefore will be unhealthy (See “How to access stress in reptiles, Warwick”). This is at the core of my philosophy for caring for exotics. I have struggled for many years contending with whether or not keeping exotics as pets is morally okay. Therefore, I see promoting species specific behavior through environment enrichment as a moral obligation.
Wouldn’t you agree that Brian’s retics are healthier now that they can climb? It is not the “movement” but the behavior I am interested in, although clearly movement such as climbing has its health benefits. Not to mention many ball pythons are kept in tubs that they cannot fully stretch out in, so very little movement is possible. I have a study showing the negative health consequences of that of that as well (“Spatial considerations for Snake by Warwick”). Or what about allowing a large lizard to dig for food? Wouldn’t you agree that an animal that is able to look and dig for food is healthier? Just by virtue of movement the animal is going to be healthier, but this behavior also has the opportunity replace any abnormal behaviors that would be caused by stress.
I hope I didn’t use the words “happy” or “feelings” in the episode, if did, I apologize for that! I agree reptiles do not possess a level of emotional intelligence as seen in mammals and I do think personification of the animals can be just as harmful. I am not claiming that environment enrichment creates a “happier” animal. However, as you state, their brains are wired for “survival” and in the same way many mammals require emotional enrichment, I argue that reptiles require enrichment that pushes their brain into a “survival” mode i.e. forging, climbing, etc.
My argument hinges on promoting species specific behavior, not solely “movement”. And again, this is deeply rooted in my own animal-keeping philosophy. If you listen to episode 2 of the podcast I breakdown my philosophy completely (it’s short, about 15 mins). I think this is probably where our disagreement stems from.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast Thanks for taking the time to respond. I will certainly listen to episode 2, as I do enjoy the way you discuss your very well thought out opinions. The important thing here is that we both love the animals and have their interests in mind, and going about a discussion in this productive manner can help us in achieving the success we want to see.
Completely agree! As animal owners we are all more alike than different... something that people on Facebook tend to forget haha. I really appreciate your feedback and opinions as well and thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed comment without adding any unnecessary ad hominem attacks. Feel free to email me anytime, I’m always happy to discuss this type of stuff with anyone. Hello@animalsathome.ca
Maybe you guys are overthinking
Elaborate, please!
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast because you guys forget one very very important thing. In the wild snakes also have fear of getting hunted by other animals and that's why they have developed a genetic or something like that to stay hidden. Even when going out for finding food or right temperature (yes it gives puzzle solving skills) they stay hidden and are always scared and that's there main motivation to be alive. That's why you see experts keep them in tubs (where the whole tub acts like a hide) where the snake feels secure. But you some guys dont want to accept that and want to keep them like dogs or cats. There main motive in life is to eat (plus waste as less energy as they can by not moving unnecessary) thermo regulate and breed. So for a snake mental puzzle solving skill is not important than saving energy.
Yes puzzle solving skills will increase intelligence in snakes but is not necessary for them. Like scientists have more puzzle solving skills than average humans but doesn't necessarily mean that they are more happy than other.
You’ve raised some interesting points. You’ve also commented in a way that positively contributes to the conversation, which is both appreciated and a rarity on RUclips, so kudos on that!
I completely agree that a major part of natural behavior for a snake in the wild is to remain hidden. Keeping your snake in a more complex and enriching environment does not mean to say you’re keeping the animal in a vastly open enclosure. Part of a proper well enriched enclosure should include many hides and places the snake can crawl into in order to feel comfortable and safe.
In other words, I believe snakes should be kept in enclosures that have many different hide options allowing a snake to move from one to another as they choose rather than offering a single hide i.e. the tub = a hide.
As far as experts go, I tend to gravitate towards using the herpetologists who work in zoo settings for advice rather than those who mass produce animals for the pet industry. Zoos keep their animals in enriching environments because it is healthier for the animals.
I am not suggesting that you provide your snake with enrichment that will require them to problem solve at a level more advanced than they would be expected to do in the wild. In other words, the enrichment you provide in your enclosure should remain within the scope of wild behaviors. You’ve listed some great problem-solving behaviors that a snake has to go through on a daily basis in the wild: feeding, thermal regulation, remaining out of sight. These are all behaviors that you want to see in your captive animal. If you only provide a bare tub that acts entirely as a hide itself, the animal will not have the opportunity to act out wild type behaviors.
So again, the “problem-solving” I am referring to in this podcast, is the problem solving the animal is required to exhibit in the wild. I personally think it is our duty as owners of captive animals to provide them with the opportunity to act up behaviors as they would in the wild.
@@AnimalsatHomePodcast yes I agree on everything you said but I dont thing it's necessary to provide a hide within a hide.
Big pythons also show same behavior in the wild like snakes kept in tubs.
They eat big meals go in a hide and dont move from that place until food is digested. And we are also forgetting that they can camouflage. So they know others won't be able see them in a dark hide with there camouflage.
Second I think if a law passes out to provide a hide within a hide the whole hobby will get banned.
You see currently some peoples can't even provide a perfect heating temperature to the snake and get charged on animal cruelty.
If such law passes thousands will be charged and whole hobby will fall apart. Even the media won't show truth and only scare common people an tell they are doing cruelty to snakes.
We should not try to fix what's not broken.
Like if some snakes dont feel secure it'll die in a matter of days.
But some snakes are kept in tubs without hide still it doesn't feel unsecure.
There are people from normal day to day persons to big politicians who wants to see this hobby get banned and if we fight withing ourselves on such stupid topics the hobby will get banned.
A hide within a hide, it only make the people's physiology statisfy but is not necessary for the animal.
We are just fighting with our physiology. Like in some countries men dont give women rights and keeps mistreating them just because of there physiology. But it's not right
We should fight on why some people thrash newbies mistakes but not teach him politly to correct the mistakes even if it means going out of the way to help him.
Why aren't we focusing on making the heat source and enclosures as cheap as we can so we can acquire new hobbyist.
And about prof herps you will see people with all kinds of opinions. And in every industry experts have opinions different than others.
Like when Elon musk decided to make private rockets and said one day he will make space travel possible to common people even niel Armstrong opposed that but it doesn't mean that Elon is wrong.
If trends like this continue in this hobby I am sure my friend the day is not far where we won't be legally allowed to keep the animals we love and this country we start to produce unnecessary criminals.
@@terminator2340 Yes, I am definitely against having external agencies (such as government) creating laws for the reptile industry. This would be terrible! We both agree there. I have covered many of the points you have raised here in previous posts/ podcasts, I think you and I agree on most things and disagree on a few. To avoid having to re-type out things I have said in the past, I'll list out a few things for you to take a look as you have time!
1) Scroll through the comments (on this video) to find the discussion I had with *Nikkubus Exotics
*, It goes down a similar path you and I are on.
2) A blog post I wrote, Environmental Enrichment: Risk vs. Reward: customreptilehabitats.com/blogs/news/environmental-enrichment-risk-vs-reward
3) Defending the Reptile Hobby (Against government legislation): ruclips.net/video/m4U7mW6H8nk/видео.html
4) Adding a Tiny Snake into a Huge Enclosure: ruclips.net/video/og7UMyC46yA/видео.html
5) Fighting Online/ Trashing Newbies (I chat with a rude commentor): ruclips.net/video/Ch1OlhOaXN8/видео.html
6) Improving Reptile Care (*this one is a must-listen in my opinion for every reptile owner*): ruclips.net/video/5S-cHOjd430/видео.html
Again, I really appreciate the conversation! Hopefully, you find some of the info above thought-provoking.