I believe the firefighter you pointed out at 1:38 was the driver of the tanker that didn't show in the video until much later. His first job should have been to help the engine hook to the hydrant.
Hey man really appreciate these videos. Not a lot of channels out there reviewing fireground operations and going over the good, bad, and the ugly. As a probie this kind of stuff really helps. Thanks
Thank you I appreciate the kind words. It’s a delicate, balancing act because I don’t want to come across as being cocky and a know it all Monday morning quarterback. But I think these discussions can help.
As a probie, do what you are instructed to do. Get off probation first, and then slowly, carefully and respectfully work to change the traditional ways- the ones that need changing!
For a point of reference, this station provides service to the World Golf Village in St. Johns County FL. It is comprised of an all-career DS/CT all ALS service. It currently has 23 full-time stations. It is a relatively new department. It has 6 new stations in the pipeline for construction. This county is the number one fastest growing area in the United States. Most of the staff is under 30 years of age, and the adjoining county [ Jacksonville Fire Rescue] regularly hires these firefighters/paramedics away for more pay and promotional opportunities. The county has allowed developers to come in and build 10,000 home developments, allowing them to skate on critical infrastructure such as fire protection and law enforcement and schools. Would I had attacked this differently, absolutely, but I have nearly 40 years training, education and experience to call upon. The indiviual in class C was the Tanker engineer. I wish I could understand the logic being used, but I'll find out. It could be the officer was off and the engineer riding up, the firefighter driving and a the rear-seat firefighter a probationay new guy. Rescue (ambulance) are firefighter/paramedics and if there are no patients, commits to firefighting. I know of the adversion of using master streams and laying out; I witnesses it my entire career at the second largest department in Florida. More than 60 stations and with three shifts it was like having 180 separate departments. Before retirement, I sent out the UL/NIST study on master stream use, referred to as softening the target that disproved all the "old guys theory on external attacks." You'd thought I committed heresy. If you want to see just how much one apparatus manned by one firefighter can put fire out, find the YT video on the Chicago O'Hara Airport drill with one ARFF unit, its amazing.
Yes the deck gun would have worked but the 2 1/2 can be advanced and should have been the first line pulled by the crew just by the amount of fire as they got on location. After the crew pulls the line and gets in place the driver charges it then he can get his supply line to the hydrant and get it charged. Then the second crew could pull the second line ( I would say another 2 1/2 but I guess that could be debated) and get to work but seeing the second crew walk up and basically do nothing while a crew was in the structure and there was a line laying on the ground in front of the garage was unbelievable. Animals will either find their way out or they won't make it out at all, If you have plenty of manpower and have lines in the building and crews doing search then if you come across an animal you can make that save but first and foremost HUMAN LIFE then PROPERTY somewhere way after your sure those two are taken care of then you can say animals. I have to say in my opinion the had enough manpower to get two lines and a feed and get a good knock on that fire but from the first pull of that 1 3/4 they were already heading down the total loss call the emergency demo crew path.
Whether there are animals or adults of an entire Kindergarten class, you knock down all Visible Burning Material with tank water and Then go inside with a charged line to further protect the occupants. You can Protect life by eliminating the threat much faster than you can go inside to find and then remove them. "Search and Rescue" is for the media and civilians, not real firefighters.
I would hit it with the deck gun as the 2-1/2 and/or 1-3/4 hand lines are being pulled, positioned and charged. Perhaps a blitz nozzle on the 2-1/2. But the quickest water will always be the deck gun. ANYONE available could and should be used to establish a water supply.
If the cat is outside it will be fine, it will move out of harms way very quickly. In fact someone chasing it may cause it to head back towards the house
I think the 1 3/4 was actually appropriate for this fire. It looked impressive, but once they got the line in service and darkened down the garage, most of the energy went out of the fire. They were making good progress, but didn't follow it up by going in and pulling ceiling to chase the fire in the attic.
As noted the 1 3/4” is one of 3 options I considered. However, it was used extremely ineffectively, turned on and off way too many times, left off completely at points and wasn’t matched with an aggressive interior push forward.
I'm a fan of putting the deck gun to work on jobs like this. 15-30 seconds of deck gun can buy you a TON of time, to make the stretch and get your supply established, simply by knocking the fire on its ass from the jump. 30 seconds of deck gun, plus rapid follow-up with an 1 3/4? Yeah... I think that changes the whole complexion of this fight, and then gives you time to methodically set up shop for sustainment. Getting the supply... making the primary... completing the big push... and getting personnel on scene and ready to go for overhaul. This is a trend I hate to see in a lot of RUclips videos... and that is the snail's pace of deployment and getting water on the fire. While we shouldn't be going so fast that were falling over ourselves... we shouldn't be 'strolling about like we're going to the shower' either. The sooner we get water on the fire at a flow to put the fire on its butt... the safer the scene's going to run for us, and the less escalation we're going to see. For departments without a deck gun on their rig... stretching the 2 1/2 and bringing Niagra Falls to bear on the fire can make a huge difference. If we start with the deuce... and decide we want to finish with something smaller, we can do it pretty comfortably. Starting with a 1 3/4s? Well... if it doesn't work... you're either stretching some back-up lines or you're going back and starting over to get a deuce in service to play catch-up. And I don't like playing catch-up on a fire beyond the first 3-5 minutes after the air-brake is set on the first due engine if I can help it. Staffing being what it is today too... with 3 people on pumpers as a norm? We can't really afford to be under-selecting our initial attack. We need to go bigger, earlier, and get the fire on its ass early on, so that our additional units have time to get there and get set up to close the show the right way.
Plus as I wrote above, there was a hydrant 50 feet away so no concern about the master stream using up the tank and then having no water to continue (assuming the hydrant works and has pressure, always a risk I suppose)
This was in my neighborhood. St Johns is a career department. I was watching this as it was happening and was concerned about the way it was attacked. I believe the first due engine is also a hazmat unit, and may not have a deck gun. If I am wrong, please correct. There is a tanker at that station which also responded. The next due was a similar engine and tech rescue unit. Several additional engines arrived but from a distance, and finally a truck from about 10 miles or more away. No way to get the truck close enough to do any good.
First off - I know nothing about this dept. But, as per YOUR comment, It's GREAT that they have all these specialized units, but at what cost? FIREFIGHTERS need the training, equipment, and knowledge to FIGHT FIRES! A "Haz-Mat" or "Technical Rescue" company is useless at a garbage can fire if nobody brought a fire extinguisher! Or no training on how to pull the pin, aim, and squeeze the handle! If specialized units are going in 1st-due on 'bread&butter' structure fires, they need 'bread&butter' continual training/drilling!
We are dealing with the same issues around our areas. So many people have been trained for years that the preconnect 1 3/4 line is the first off the truck that its a struggle to get them to pull the 2 1/2. We've had one preconnected iff the rear of a few trucks and had one preconnected with the other preconnects on our newest engine, hoping that since its right there it will get used. We are training that if structure is more than 50% envolved to pull 2 1/2. Sometimes manpower to start with is an issue but ive used the 2 1/2 on initial attack alone from outside you just have to stay put and cant drag it around like an 1 3/4
My point was that there is issues with the county fire service as St Johns County is one of the fastest growing in Florida, and response times are in many cases out of the accepted times by NFPA. The first due station is about a little over a mile from this house and this could have been handled better.
In addition to what you said about the deck gun being a great attack opportunity, I'd also point out that there is a hydrant right there within 50 feet of the truck so securing a supply of water when the deck gun drains the tank in 20 seconds, is not a problem. I agree about the cat. If its outside, its natural instinct will be to run. If its inside then nothing can be done until the fire is out. The upset homeowner is the reason why I think a police unit needs to show up at every fire call to manage the people so that firefighters can do their job! Compared to other videos I've seen, these firefighters seem to not know what to do. Was there no battalion commander? Disclaimer: I am not a firefighter.
Career guy from a very large dept here. I have a few takeaways because this video was sent to me and I feel it necessary to play devils advocate because although criticism is important. I don’t feel it’s ok to do so when using the dept as a punching bag. I saw fire venting from the roof in sub 20 seconds into this video. Which tells me the living space would most likely be clear of heavy smoke and visibility would be increased. I don’t care how much water you threw at this garage with a deck gun it wouldn’t have the correct angle to address the extension in the attic space. Only a well placed 2.5 inch or 1.75 would be nimble for that task. Not to mention I would bet my life that there is no longer a ceiling between the firefighters on the ground inside the garage. I say this because we start to see white smoke early on in the fire as indicated at about 1:15 seconds towards the rear of the house. Deck guns are ok but not always necessary when placement is the key and not just volume. I would lean towards an initial 2.5 or a well placed 1.75. Them boys did good with what they were presented with. Aside from going directly interior earlier on and having sufficient manpower for the initial attack line. I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Animals are important and she probably confused the plug man by being hysterical and believing it was a human life that was trapped. I’ve seen it both ways. It looks the same. That is why I push hard on the initial crews to never deviate from attack to try and perform a search unless the victim is visible. Good day.
Appreciate the comments. I agree that the deck gun angle into the garage isn’t perfect. But I think you could have some success. The better tactic would be blasting into burn holes in roof, soffit or gable end vents in my view. That said. I gave the deck gun option as a 1 of 3 options. As far as their operation of the 1 3/4, I think it was horrible. Bail closed half the time. Shooting at the floor of garage. Spending time in garage when the entire attic is off front to back. Two fire fighters using two hand lines ineffectively rather than one effectively. As a general rule, if you were utilizing a handline and conditions aren’t improving within a short period of time. Either your attack angle is ineffective or you’ve chosen the wrong size line. Anyway, again, I appreciate your well thought out comments and the main purpose of my videos is to foment this type of conversation so that people can learn. Thank you
Nice review. I had a Chief who refused to send units on cat rescue calls, his logic was that not once in his 40 plus years of service did he come across a dead cat at the foot of a utility pole or tree or shed or garage, and I discovered over my time that it was true.
I have seen cats washed out of a tree with a booster line back in the day. Main thing is has anyone ever seen a dead cat in a tree because they didn't get out of the tree by themselves... didn't think so...
You we're lucky. Animals can be trapped just like humans and unfortunately in my career as a firefighter recovered 2 cats with massive smoke intoxication. We grabbed our oxygen tank but it was too late and they passed away. Strangely this was by far one of my most emotional dispatches. For my other mates too. We were silent the whole trip back to the station.
I need to add that since fire generally doubles every 30 seconds, there aren’t any seconds to lose. How many times has the fire doubled from start to effective water on the fire. At least the slab was salvageable!
"There's the cat. This woman will sleep soundly tonight." Yeah. At the Extended Stay America because the fire department let her house burn to the ground. "Everyone goes home (except the homeowner)."
Deckgun. Grab a hydrant. Team 1 gets on about 3 lengths of 2.5. Team 2 delta entry or possilbly attic if team 1 isnt getting up there. This one of the few that would likely not even conduct a full 360, and instead pull slightly past for a 3 side eval. Charlie will need an agressive attack but only after substantial knockdown of alpha.
@@TransmitThe1075 I'm not in total disagrement with that strategy (I assume you mean so they can easier move through the structure), but I like the 2.5 for piercing the ceiling so I can keep my yellow hats on solid ground. I'd likely have my 1.75's as my emergency lines and then switch to them for mopup and hotspots. If I was low of guys though I lie your 1.75 strategy for attacking the hotspots quickly via alpha.
I see what appears to be a hydrant directly across the street from the Fire Scene, so, if this is the case, if I were command, I would do my 360, to establish location of utilities, and extent of fire, and have the first due engine hook up to that hydrant to establish water supply, and initially hit it with a deck gun to knock it down while the crew is flaking out the initial hand line. If I have an extra body, send them back for the Car, if not, then move on. The Incoming Engine or Truck Company can check that situation once the main priorities are accomplished. Truck Company would begin vertical venting ASAP, and a crew would be sent in the front door with a handline to attack the fire on the inside, once interior attack crew has knocked down the interior fire out, a primary search team would be sent in. Once the primary search is done, and fire is knocked down, a secondary search team would be sent in. Once the secondary search is complete, then mop up, and overhaul can begin. The Garage portion can also be knocked down initially with the deck gun, then entry can be made to check for extension.
@@GMan-yv8cb if the hydrant was directly in front of the burning home, then the first firefighter out of the Cab could have, and should have pulled, and stretched the supply line to the hydrant, then climbed up to run the deck gun. The Engineer can get that deck gun flowing while hand lines are being pulled and stretched, then once the deck gun is flowing, he can quickly return to hook up to the hydrant, and get his water supply established, and charge the handlines as directed by command once they are in place. Forcible Entry should have been done on the garage door to get it open enough to get a handline inside. As for lines attacking from opposing sides, I personally am not in favor of that practice because if there is fire inside of any magnitude, each team inside runs the risk of pushing that fire into the other team coming in and attacking from the opposite direction, or vice versa. No one else other than myself even mentioned doing the ever so crucial 360 degree walk around to locate utilities, and assess exactly what is burning, and where it is burning, and how hard it is burning. This is the very first thing that the OIC on scene should be doing upon arrival on any fire scene.
@@kevinswinyer3176 The engineer has to be the Engineer and only that just like a Commander has to just command. The engineer has to bring up the pressure and hook up the hydrant line at the engine. With this minimum of manpower, he could pull out some hand lines for the hydrant man and deck gunner when they were done with their initial tasks, but he has to stay with his job.
@@JB91710 part of the Engineer's job is establishing water supply, and hooking up to a hydrant is part of establishing water supply. The hydrant has the water that the engineer needs, and there are times when the Engineer will need to be the one to hook up the supply line to the hydrant, then hook the other end of it to his intake. If he is the only one available to hook up, he can't expect anyone else to stop what they have been assigned to do to hook a supply line up to the hydrant, and into the engine, and charge the hydrant. Any good Engineer will tell you that. Perfect Scenario would be for the hydrant to be right in front of the burning building every single time, and have enough guys on that first due Engine so that one guy grabs that supply line, and pulls it to the hydrant, flushes out the hydrant, hooks up to it, then stands by until instructed to charge the supply line while the Engineer stays at the panel, and the OIC assumes command, and the others are issued their assignments and start performing them, but as we all know, we don't live in a perfect environment, and not every call will have a perfect scenario to it.
@@kevinswinyer3176 Hooking up to a hydrant must always be by a designated firefighter. The engineer has to stay with the engine. They will hook up the hydrant line At the engine and open the valve. They have to monitor the pressure and open the valves for the lines. Nobody can do any of that if the engineer is at the other end of a couple of hundred feet of supply line. With three firefighters you drop off a hydrant line with a FFer, the engineer activates the pump and the third FFer pulls a line or opens up the deck gun. With just three people you have tank water on the fire in 30-40 seconds. if the engineer doesn't focus on his job, there won't be water coming in or going out. Eventually, doesn't cut it.
True, we don't use these tabletops to say what we would do.....rather we should discuss what our evolutions should be based on conditions. Troopies can't flow water on this fire and should not go in. We need the supply set up to do that. As for this incident, we do see the drivers and other personnel, but we don't know what else they're dealing with nor their force strength. Lots of challenges here even though it looks straightforward.
Yes, St. Johns County is a paid department. I'm a VFF in a nearby county and have worked with SJFR, this is not typical of them. I agree this was slow in attack and seems to lack a solid IC. I'm going to agree to disagree on the initial master stream before a water supply is established unless there is a clear and compelling exposure hazard that needs to be darkened without delay. Some engines have only a 500 Gal tank and depending on when your second due is arriving, the IC may rather have rescue/defensive water if needed. Absolutely agree on the misuse of water in the garage, not sure if tunnel-vision (first thing I see burning is getting wet) happened, but the IC goofed that one. Primary search in that one with a 1 3/4"? with only 2-in I'll give a yea maybe. 2 1/2" was needed given the volume of fire and involvement. This is assuming the IC does not have a 100% positive confirmation that no human rescue is required. Look, I love my pets and sometimes the Signal 7 dog or cat gets to me more than it should, but I'm going to risk a crap load more to get the person out than rescue fluffy or kit
Frantic civilians can be a very bad distraction from the tasks at hand, big fire needs big water . And something else to add here is the incident commander or first company officer on scene is the one dictating the fire attack which can reflect poorly on the the company if you don't make the right tactical decisions. Pull a big line or utilize the deck gun and transition to offensive if possible or stay defensive till more companies arrive. This type 5 construction goes up fast too.
I definitely see the deck gun argument, followed by an interior attack with the 1 3/4". Frankly, I think if they had enough pressure on that first attack line and really worked the garage, pulling a second 1 3/4" for an interior attack to go after the attic extension would have been perfectly reasonable. It is clear these guys aren't big on the concept of interior attack. Re the cat comments...agreed!!! Was told by a lieutenant in 1986 that in 20 years he'd never seen a cat skeleton in a tree...truth. :)
Its a Fast spreading fire . Drop 2, 2-1/2" hose lines and protect the exposures. Knock down exterior fire and push in. No master streams needed on this 1 story job.
Using a deck gun entrains a lot of air and oxygen. ULFSRI research on air entrainment of exterior fire streams indicates that it brings in as much as 15,000 CFM of air and oxygen. All fires "go out" eventually. Its what happens between arrival and pick-up that reveals how effective the tactics were. Were they applying Class A structural firefighting foam with their water. NIST research on Class A foam says it extinguishes fire 3 to 5 times more efficiently than plain, untreated water.
@@TransmitThe1075 I’ve lived through these fires though. I would disagree with you but I don’t recall seeing you there after the smoke was gone. That you initially said “….I would be okay with an 1-3/4” line for initial attack,” has me convinced that you are a novice. This is a fire that has burned beyond ordinary proportions prior to arrival of the FD. The protection of exposures on either side of the main fire building is PARAMOUNT. That’s why you drop 2, 2-1/2” hose lines (not just “…one 2-1/2” as you added indecisively). Get with the program. Big fire, big water, but never train a master stream on an opening in an occupied structure fire unless it is your intention to kill someone inside. That’s my experience of using a deck gun when you should not, but what could I possibly know about that sort of thing? Chief Hughes Battalion 1 (retired) Chicago FD 35 years on the job.
For what it's worth, Truck 16 in front of the house is a hazmat unit. It has a large remote controlled light tower on top but no deck gun. Why a hazmat unit was the first to arrive I cannot answer.
I to live in saint Johns county fl. I’m also a firefighter not with Saint John, the should have been at lease one engine station closer than 10 miles away. I had a fire in my Nabiorhood and the response was quick and the tactics that were use were appropriate for the fire conditions, it was the same type home in size and looked to have been built by the same builder. That fire was put out in lest than 7 min t from the time that they got on scene. But then again it was about 10 or 11 years ago. My point is the level of experience is not the same as it was then. A lot of new kids that lack that experience that the old timers had but is now retired. It shows.
I think there are too many departments that think you have to have a water supply setup before you can use the deck gun because they only have 750 - 1000 gallons of water.
I remember when the video first came out and thinking 1075 is going to go nuts on this one. Well "K". Training training training. Deck-gun absolutely, 2-1/2 kick the fount door, water supply. It should have been muscle memory size up.
Did anyone think to throw some ladders? Since I don’t see one aerial truck showing up even. Curious to see what the SOP/SOG for the department are as well.
@LB5111, I had mentioned a Truck Company doing vertical venting, due to the close proximity of overhead obstructions, it would have been nearly impossible to employ the aerial ladder in this case, however, it would have been the responsibility of the first in truck company to take on the task of throwing ladders up.
Personally I think there is “truck work” to be done. But I don’t think ladder throwing in this particular case is required. Fire is and has already burned through roof, its a 1 story building. Plenty of other truck work left. Forcible entry, horizontal ventilation, pulling ceilings, search to name a few. .
Before I get into my critique of this hideous performance, I have to say this. You are Way to kind to the so called "Professionals" in these videos. The USA fire service needs a swift kick in the butt and the viewers, who think they are all heroes Just because the Joined Up, Dressed Up and Showed Up, need a wakeup call. First thing I see is two FFers standing there doing nothing while the hydrant line needs to be pulled to that hydrant. If that's the engineer on the deck gun, he shouldn't be up there. One of those two Lawn Statues should be up there. Watch those two keep standing there as the video progresses. 3:25 The do all engineer has left the deck gun without using it and the two Lawn Statues haven't moved. 4:00 Finally there is a water pistol in play. 6:00 This is way beyond ridiculous. The officers in this department need to be replaced immediately. I can't even call this an amateur operation. There is no thinking or planning here at all. IS THAT HYDRANT STILL NOT HOOKED UP? 8:45 The garage is still burning and threatening the house and FFers with all those flammable liquid containers people keep in there. Lots of VBM showing through the roof that could be soaked and these guys think it is a good idea to go into this firebomb of a house to extinguish burning material they can no longer access. 9:00 Can you imagine what three FFers with that deck gun running could have done to this picture? Watch those two "Walkers" that have no idea what to do. Watch the engineer ignore and not direct them. Everything here is disconnected because nothing is being coordinated. All firefighters have to be trained to THINK, not just wait to be told what to do. How many entry teams have you seen being driven out of a burning structure because they didn't extinguish everything they could see from the outside First? This is how this should have played out in the first minute of arrival. 1. The engineer activates the pump. 2. One FFer on the Deck Gun. 3. One FFer pulling the supply line to the hydrant. 4. The engineer pulls an easy to handle 1-3/4" line for the deck gun FFer when they have knocked down all visible combustion. 5. Hydrant FFer pulls an additional 1-3/4" line to the back where the heavy smoke is showing. You now have supply and two lines hitting this from opposite directions. Any additional FFers can create an entry team once all Visible Burning Material has been extinguished through the doors and windows. Three to Four competent workers could have taken on this house by themselves with one engine and the hydrant. A third world group of volunteers could have done a better job than these misfits. Do you really think they disserve any respect at all? I wouldn't have any of them sweeping floors.
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I don't know anything but this appears to be a paid department not volunteer simply from the age and condition of the equipment and the gear the firefighters are wearing. Jacksonville Florida, yes paid
Hey im a younger guy and newer to the fire service in a volunteer department, im not very informed about other fire departments but with a crew with 2 in the back and an officer why didnt one of them catch the hydrant? is the engineer taking hydrants instead of a layout guy more common in outside departments? especially since the engineer wanted to use the deck gun off rip, we have a layout man that wouldve dropped a humat (or just a cupling for this department) and the 2nd due start flowing water, especially when it was right infront of the house? also, why were no lines directed at the exposure to the bravo side of the building? sorry if these are dumb questions but i just wanted to ask
That engineer had no idea what his job was because this department never planned anything. From what I saw here, they show up and wing it. This department has no Thinking Leadership.
In this case, with hydrant so close and fire spreading so fast, I think, pulling up and going immediately with water and hand stretching the line back to the hydrant was the way to go. Could do either but my way gets water on fire faster.
The only dumb question is the one you don't ask! IMHO, if the first thousand gallons of water doesn't solve the problem, then the next 20,000 gallons also won't solve it. most engines carry 500-1000 gallons of water, and with a single 1 3/4" line flowing 150 GPM that is between 3:20 and 6:40 of continuous water application before you run out. You can get a significant knock on the fire with three and a half minutes of water application, and if the hydrant is nearby, the engineer should be able to get a water supply in that time. Conversely, if you stop to grab a water supply on the way in, you are giving the fire another couple of minutes to grow and depriving yourself of one of your crew until they get back from the hydrant, which will slow your attack even more. Even if you run out of water, you have reset the fire significantly and are in a better position to wait. As for why not protect the Bravo exposure, my guess is that conditions were such that it wasn't necessary. The seat of the fire seems to have been in the garage and while it was blowing fire out, it was mostly on the alpha side. This is one of those "We will never know, but i am giving them the benefit of the doubt" situations.
I'm gonna guess that's a 3 man engine. If it's a 4 man rig someone is missing. I didn't see a reason why the engineer couldn't hand jack the supply line himself, which they typically will if the hydrant is that close, but I believe the FF who tagged the hydrant was off the medic unit. I'd guess the plan was to have the FF1 pull a line and the officer back him up after he did a 360 but the line should've been a 2 1/2 (If you run 3 man rigs, your dudes have to be able to handle a 2 1/2 on their own for a while) and the 2nd line should have been an 1 3/4 that went right in the house with hooks.
Big fire or a lot of fire... Big water! I would have deck gunned, hit the front door and pulled ceiling and the gable end to get more water in the attic space and definitely a 2 1/2 or 3" first off the rig.
Hey chief. Bottom line there are no extenuating circumstances at this fire. Just call it what it is. A poorly organized, fire department with poor leadership and training. In my 50+ years of observing fire departments from Maine to Florida there are many fire departments that do poor jobs. It is the Chiefs responsibility to see that his department is well trained and has qualified and well experienced officers leading their men.
"There's a cat", " is it inside?"," no it's in the backyard","is it in a run?","no, it's in the backyard", "then leave it alone, cats aren't that fecking stupid"
Deck gun, one guy, Hydrant 2nd guy, immediate, knock down, while the guy on the deck gun is knocking down another 2 can be getting a 2 1/2 to go in. this is bad, I can't even watch. My crew has 4 people for about ten minutes and we do more than this.
Perhaps the use of the deck gun was decided against as it is so powerful it may force burning pieces of burning house onto the nearby houses. Anyway, from simply watching a video we will never know what the firefighters on the scene know and the factors they are using for their plan of action.
Your chances of extension to the B/D sides is significantly higher if you let it continue to burn. Put the dang fire out by any means necessary. I'm a fan of the 2.5" on that fire, but a deck gun isn't going push fire or debris onto neighboring homes.
@TransmitThe1075 I already saved like 4 of them to my watch later Playlist. And it's later and I am going to take a look. Then I got a great story to tell you about getting stopped by a fire dept captain in my Transit Mix concrete truck. You will crack up but I helped save a building from going up in flames.
@TransmitThe1075 I told you I had a story, so here it goes. I drove Transit Mix concrete truck for about 15 years and returning back to the yard for another load. I noticed a decent smoke plume. So I got to the smoke, and it was a car fire under a wooden awning that was connected all the way across the small strip mall. I have a 200-gallon water tank charged with high-pressure air. Had about 145 left in the tank and jumped out, hit the car, and knocked it down pretty good. Still burning cause the hood was closed, then went after the wooden awning and signage the car was parked under. It made a huge difference. A Battalion Chief was the first arrival, and he hit the car with a small ext. By the time the first due engine showed up, the car needed to be hit with higher flow, but everything was knocked down substantially. The funny thing about it was my company was going to write me up for stopping to help with the fire and not returning to get reloaded. The Battalion Chief said I was going to get an award from the county cause he said what I did saved the strip mall from a major incident. Before I left I rolled up my hose and left the fire I had the Chief call my boss and tell him that he flagged me down to see if I still had water and told them about maybe getting an award. I didn't get a write-up, but they wouldn't give me the time off for the award. It made me feel good that he said I made the difference. It's not a deck gun but very high pressure flow. I got another couple of good ones, but you tell me if you want to read it. Take care and be safe. Greg. TRUE STORY
I’ve tried to be as fair and open minded as I could here. As I’ve mentioned on many of my videos, in my 32 years in the fire service both volunteer and career I have without question been to my share of cluster fucks. I also managed to fall through a floor in my early days, get shocked from a service panel and certainly have seen and made mistakes on the way. That said, it is rather obvious, from anyone who has a halfway decent experience level, that this wasn’t this department’s finest hour. We’ve all been there at some point. If, and when the time comes, and I review a video from my region, I will certainly try to be as consistent as I can.
You are 100% correct in all that your saying, just goes to show that no matter the cost of equipment, if you dont have qualified personell what good is it, by the way if you want to see the ugliest fire apparatus just go to Cheney Washington and youll see ugly lol.
Salty today? Ha If you aren't moving the nozzle or advancing then you should have a good reason why this isn't happening. Unfortunately I didn't see a good reason here so fair criticism. I did have hope when those boys pulled the hooks off of the back that entry was occurring but the video doesn't show any progress.
you think they might be having a bad day? no excuse! that was someone's HOME! they can't afford to have a bad day! period! Now why hook up to hydrant? you have said in previous video's 500 gallon more than enough to knock down a full fire! these video's make keystone cops look professional, but it comes down to one thing! no National Fire fighting Standard that every firefighter is trained to. its like every State has there own different standards, but as the US is so keen on the blame game, home owners and businesses are the only ones who can change this! by suing the butts out of these fire departments on then changes will be made for the better.
@@TransmitThe1075 unless you are talking about that one Cab that Pierce used to build. The FUGLY QUANTUM !!!!! That thing was soooo FUGLY you would have to shut it down, and push it to the fire so that it don't scare the flames away ... THANK GOD THEY FINALLY QUIT BUILDING THAT HIDEOUS ABORTION THAT THEY CALLED FIRE APPARATUS !!!!!
Seems like a department that over engineers it's apparatus. A tech rescue truck oh that's also an engine. And what purpose does a vista cab serve other than to drive up the cost? This is a common solution to staffing issues. Rather that staff a separate heavy rescue and and engine we will combine them both into one so we only need 4 personnel instead of 8
This is like roadkill on PA highways, rarely do we ever see anyone go strait to the deck gun. 1 million vids of BIG FIRE, and 999,000 videos of either 8min to get water flowing or second alarm to get big water flowing. I'm in a rural area. All of our first due area have 1000gal engines who will arrive first, it's our sop to hit everything that involves 2 divisions and has free burning fire showing. If we are in town with a hydrant in front of the house it will be a cold day in hell before we will ever reach a 40 minute timer.
Even the recognized major departments, such as NYC, seem to have trouble getting water on fires. These Florida guys appear to spend their down time playing dominoes or shopping for groceries. A family planning to move to a new city should investigate how good is its fire department. But nobody seems to give that a thought. I've lived in my house for 43 years and have no idea how the city's FD performs at fire scenes.
I am not impressed by full paid Dept they ruined my town with pension and never got more than 4 ff om the Dept and all full paid firefighter move to Indiana were they don't pay firefighter
Though I am not impressed with this incident with this department, having 4 fully staffed fireman on an engine 24 hours a day is a great benefit to any community. Getting response times under four minutes, being there for all types of emergencies, including medical, motor vehicle, accident, gas leaks, fires, alarms etc. Is well worth the cost in my view, but of course I am biased.
@@TransmitThe1075 really then why are firefighter shopping more in my town than fighting fires it's a do nothing job remember paid firefighter try to kill part time and poc firefighter.. remember ur talking to. People that were pulled over going to fires so the cops and paid firefighter could make us look bad remember it doesn't take a brain surgeon to put wet stuff on Red stuff
@virgilhilts you’re back! Where have you been? As mentioned many times, we talk about things like this, so hopefully these incidents don’t repeat themselves. Many of the young inexperienced guys find it very helpful and are requesting more of them. And older more experienced veterans can spread their knowledge. Sort of like the fire you were on that we critiqued many many months ago. I am so sorry you found the evaluation uncomfortable. We mean you no ill will. And we’re more than happy to have you comment and give us your perspective of this or any incident reviewed. Be well.
As mentioned already, I’m not opposed to wrapping a hydrant on the way in, in this case, the hydrant is so close, that I think getting water on it first while stretching by hand is the right call.
I believe the firefighter you pointed out at 1:38 was the driver of the tanker that didn't show in the video until much later. His first job should have been to help the engine hook to the hydrant.
First, you have a hydrant right in front. Set up the deck gun and dump the tank while you hook up. Then pull a 2 1/2 for that volume of fire.
Hey man really appreciate these videos. Not a lot of channels out there reviewing fireground operations and going over the good, bad, and the ugly. As a probie this kind of stuff really helps. Thanks
Thank you I appreciate the kind words. It’s a delicate, balancing act because I don’t want to come across as being cocky and a know it all Monday morning quarterback. But I think these discussions can help.
As a probie, do what you are instructed to do. Get off probation first, and then slowly, carefully and respectfully work to change the traditional ways- the ones that need changing!
For a point of reference, this station provides service to the World Golf Village in St. Johns County FL. It is comprised of an all-career DS/CT all ALS service. It currently has 23 full-time stations. It is a relatively new department. It has 6 new stations in the pipeline for construction. This county is the number one fastest growing area in the United States. Most of the staff is under 30 years of age, and the adjoining county [ Jacksonville Fire Rescue] regularly hires these firefighters/paramedics away for more pay and promotional opportunities. The county has allowed developers to come in and build 10,000 home developments, allowing them to skate on critical infrastructure such as fire protection and law enforcement and schools. Would I had attacked this differently, absolutely, but I have nearly 40 years training, education and experience to call upon. The indiviual in class C was the Tanker engineer. I wish I could understand the logic being used, but I'll find out. It could be the officer was off and the engineer riding up, the firefighter driving and a the rear-seat firefighter a probationay new guy. Rescue (ambulance) are firefighter/paramedics and if there are no patients, commits to firefighting. I know of the adversion of using master streams and laying out; I witnesses it my entire career at the second largest department in Florida. More than 60 stations and with three shifts it was like having 180 separate departments. Before retirement, I sent out the UL/NIST study on master stream use, referred to as softening the target that disproved all the "old guys theory on external attacks." You'd thought I committed heresy. If you want to see just how much one apparatus manned by one firefighter can put fire out, find the YT video on the Chicago O'Hara Airport drill with one ARFF unit, its amazing.
Hydrant in the front yard, deckgun in this situation is a no brainer.
1st line being an 1.75 is just pissing in the wind.
Right on especially considering there was a manpower shortage at the scene,
Yes the deck gun would have worked but the 2 1/2 can be advanced and should have been the first line pulled by the crew just by the amount of fire as they got on location.
After the crew pulls the line and gets in place the driver charges it then he can get his supply line to the hydrant and get it charged.
Then the second crew could pull the second line ( I would say another 2 1/2 but I guess that could be debated) and get to work but seeing the second crew walk up and basically do nothing while a crew was in the structure and there was a line laying on the ground in front of the garage was unbelievable.
Animals will either find their way out or they won't make it out at all, If you have plenty of manpower and have lines in the building and crews doing search then if you come across an animal you can make that save but first and foremost HUMAN LIFE then PROPERTY somewhere way after your sure those two are taken care of then you can say animals.
I have to say in my opinion the had enough manpower to get two lines and a feed and get a good knock on that fire but from the first pull of that 1 3/4 they were already heading down the total loss call the emergency demo crew path.
Whether there are animals or adults of an entire Kindergarten class, you knock down all Visible Burning Material with tank water and Then go inside with a charged line to further protect the occupants. You can Protect life by eliminating the threat much faster than you can go inside to find and then remove them. "Search and Rescue" is for the media and civilians, not real firefighters.
I would hit it with the deck gun as the 2-1/2 and/or 1-3/4 hand lines are being pulled, positioned and charged. Perhaps a blitz nozzle on the 2-1/2. But the quickest water will always be the deck gun. ANYONE available could and should be used to establish a water supply.
What is the purpose of a deck gun if you never use it? Why didn’t uniform guy bring hydrant bag when bringing hose over?
If the cat is outside it will be fine, it will move out of harms way very quickly. In fact someone chasing it may cause it to head back towards the house
Great point
Great video. Fully agree with your assessment.
It's sad to see that fire get away when it has a chance to be knocked down.
Thanks
@11:07 😂 I laughed out loud at the “ugliest fire truck” comment.
Maybe 30 lashes was to many. 🤪
I think the 1 3/4 was actually appropriate for this fire. It looked impressive, but once they got the line in service and darkened down the garage, most of the energy went out of the fire. They were making good progress, but didn't follow it up by going in and pulling ceiling to chase the fire in the attic.
As noted the 1 3/4” is one of 3 options I considered. However, it was used extremely ineffectively, turned on and off way too many times, left off completely at points and wasn’t matched with an aggressive interior push forward.
I'm a fan of putting the deck gun to work on jobs like this.
15-30 seconds of deck gun can buy you a TON of time, to make the stretch and get your supply established, simply by knocking the fire on its ass from the jump.
30 seconds of deck gun, plus rapid follow-up with an 1 3/4? Yeah... I think that changes the whole complexion of this fight, and then gives you time to methodically set up shop for sustainment. Getting the supply... making the primary... completing the big push... and getting personnel on scene and ready to go for overhaul.
This is a trend I hate to see in a lot of RUclips videos... and that is the snail's pace of deployment and getting water on the fire.
While we shouldn't be going so fast that were falling over ourselves... we shouldn't be 'strolling about like we're going to the shower' either.
The sooner we get water on the fire at a flow to put the fire on its butt... the safer the scene's going to run for us, and the less escalation we're going to see.
For departments without a deck gun on their rig... stretching the 2 1/2 and bringing Niagra Falls to bear on the fire can make a huge difference. If we start with the deuce... and decide we want to finish with something smaller, we can do it pretty comfortably.
Starting with a 1 3/4s? Well... if it doesn't work... you're either stretching some back-up lines or you're going back and starting over to get a deuce in service to play catch-up. And I don't like playing catch-up on a fire beyond the first 3-5 minutes after the air-brake is set on the first due engine if I can help it.
Staffing being what it is today too... with 3 people on pumpers as a norm? We can't really afford to be under-selecting our initial attack. We need to go bigger, earlier, and get the fire on its ass early on, so that our additional units have time to get there and get set up to close the show the right way.
Great points thanks so much for commenting.
Plus as I wrote above, there was a hydrant 50 feet away so no concern about the master stream using up the tank and then having no water to continue (assuming the hydrant works and has pressure, always a risk I suppose)
This was in my neighborhood. St Johns is a career department. I was watching this as it was happening and was concerned about the way it was attacked. I believe the first due engine is also a hazmat unit, and may not have a deck gun. If I am wrong, please correct. There is a tanker at that station which also responded. The next due was a similar engine and tech rescue unit. Several additional engines arrived but from a distance, and finally a truck from about 10 miles or more away. No way to get the truck close enough to do any good.
First off - I know nothing about this dept.
But, as per YOUR comment,
It's GREAT that they have all these specialized units, but at what cost?
FIREFIGHTERS need the training, equipment, and knowledge to FIGHT FIRES!
A "Haz-Mat" or "Technical Rescue" company is useless at a garbage can fire if nobody brought a fire extinguisher! Or no training on how to pull the pin, aim, and squeeze the handle!
If specialized units are going in 1st-due on 'bread&butter' structure fires, they need 'bread&butter' continual training/drilling!
haha , "tunnel vision" on point - I think it happens a lot . Thanks for the analysis.
Keep sending vids!
Thanks, will do!
Please keep. Telling. The. Truth.
We are dealing with the same issues around our areas. So many people have been trained for years that the preconnect 1 3/4 line is the first off the truck that its a struggle to get them to pull the 2 1/2. We've had one preconnected iff the rear of a few trucks and had one preconnected with the other preconnects on our newest engine, hoping that since its right there it will get used. We are training that if structure is more than 50% envolved to pull 2 1/2. Sometimes manpower to start with is an issue but ive used the 2 1/2 on initial attack alone from outside you just have to stay put and cant drag it around like an 1 3/4
My point was that there is issues with the county fire service as St Johns County is one of the fastest growing in Florida, and response times are in many cases out of the accepted times by NFPA. The first due station is about a little over a mile from this house and this could have been handled better.
Thanks for the information
Deck gun would have darkn'ed the fire substantially
In addition to what you said about the deck gun being a great attack opportunity, I'd also point out that there is a hydrant right there within 50 feet of the truck so securing a supply of water when the deck gun drains the tank in 20 seconds, is not a problem. I agree about the cat. If its outside, its natural instinct will be to run. If its inside then nothing can be done until the fire is out. The upset homeowner is the reason why I think a police unit needs to show up at every fire call to manage the people so that firefighters can do their job! Compared to other videos I've seen, these firefighters seem to not know what to do. Was there no battalion commander? Disclaimer: I am not a firefighter.
Career guy from a very large dept here.
I have a few takeaways because this video was sent to me and I feel it necessary to play devils advocate because although criticism is important. I don’t feel it’s ok to do so when using the dept as a punching bag.
I saw fire venting from the roof in sub 20 seconds into this video. Which tells me the living space would most likely be clear of heavy smoke and visibility would be increased.
I don’t care how much water you threw at this garage with a deck gun it wouldn’t have the correct angle to address the extension in the attic space. Only a well placed 2.5 inch or 1.75 would be nimble for that task. Not to mention I would bet my life that there is no longer a ceiling between the firefighters on the ground inside the garage. I say this because we start to see white smoke early on in the fire as indicated at about 1:15 seconds towards the rear of the house.
Deck guns are ok but not always necessary when placement is the key and not just volume.
I would lean towards an initial 2.5 or a well placed 1.75.
Them boys did good with what they were presented with. Aside from going directly interior earlier on and having sufficient manpower for the initial attack line. I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Animals are important and she probably confused the plug man by being hysterical and believing it was a human life that was trapped. I’ve seen it both ways. It looks the same. That is why I push hard on the initial crews to never deviate from attack to try and perform a search unless the victim is visible.
Good day.
Appreciate the comments. I agree that the deck gun angle into the garage isn’t perfect. But I think you could have some success. The better tactic would be blasting into burn holes in roof, soffit or gable end vents in my view. That said. I gave the deck gun option as a 1 of 3 options. As far as their operation of the 1 3/4, I think it was horrible. Bail closed half the time. Shooting at the floor of garage. Spending time in garage when the entire attic is off front to back. Two fire fighters using two hand lines ineffectively rather than one effectively. As a general rule, if you were utilizing a handline and conditions aren’t improving within a short period of time. Either your attack angle is ineffective or you’ve chosen the wrong size line. Anyway, again, I appreciate your well thought out comments and the main purpose of my videos is to foment this type of conversation so that people can learn. Thank you
Nice review. I had a Chief who refused to send units on cat rescue calls, his logic was that not once in his 40 plus years of service did he come across a dead cat at the foot of a utility pole or tree or shed or garage, and I discovered over my time that it was true.
Ha ha very true. I once went to a cat in the tree call where the tree was cut down in order to get the kitten out of very cold temps. 🤪
@@TransmitThe1075 LMAO..Stay safe Brother
I have seen cats washed out of a tree with a booster line back in the day. Main thing is has anyone ever seen a dead cat in a tree because they didn't get out of the tree by themselves... didn't think so...
As I understand it, the old joke is that "you don't find too many cat skeletons in trees."
You we're lucky. Animals can be trapped just like humans and unfortunately in my career as a firefighter recovered 2 cats with massive smoke intoxication. We grabbed our oxygen tank but it was too late and they passed away. Strangely this was by far one of my most emotional dispatches. For my other mates too. We were silent the whole trip back to the station.
Deck gun it! Dark black smoke = very hot fire. If they are going to pull a hand line, it should be a 2 1/2. Too much fire for an 1 3/4.
Keep on with the analysis. There are a million fire vids on YT, but not that many react vids.
More deckgun!
Thanks for the support
I need to add that since fire generally doubles every 30 seconds, there aren’t any seconds to lose. How many times has the fire doubled from start to effective water on the fire.
At least the slab was salvageable!
"There's the cat. This woman will sleep soundly tonight." Yeah. At the Extended Stay America because the fire department let her house burn to the ground. "Everyone goes home (except the homeowner)."
🤣🤣🤣🔥🔥🔥
Deckgun. Grab a hydrant. Team 1 gets on about 3 lengths of 2.5. Team 2 delta entry or possilbly attic if team 1 isnt getting up there. This one of the few that would likely not even conduct a full 360, and instead pull slightly past for a 3 side eval. Charlie will need an agressive attack but only after substantial knockdown of alpha.
I’d go with 1 3/4 if the deck gun was used on arrival.
@@TransmitThe1075 I'm not in total disagrement with that strategy (I assume you mean so they can easier move through the structure), but I like the 2.5 for piercing the ceiling so I can keep my yellow hats on solid ground. I'd likely have my 1.75's as my emergency lines and then switch to them for mopup and hotspots. If I was low of guys though I lie your 1.75 strategy for attacking the hotspots quickly via alpha.
@@TransmitThe1075 Exactly!
One thing you don’t mention is that the 1 1/3 line and others are not flowing max water more like a 1/3 out rated flow ?
I see what appears to be a hydrant directly across the street from the Fire Scene, so, if this is the case, if I were command, I would do my 360, to establish location of utilities, and extent of fire, and have the first due engine hook up to that hydrant to establish water supply, and initially hit it with a deck gun to knock it down while the crew is flaking out the initial hand line. If I have an extra body, send them back for the Car, if not, then move on. The Incoming Engine or Truck Company can check that situation once the main priorities are accomplished. Truck Company would begin vertical venting ASAP, and a crew would be sent in the front door with a handline to attack the fire on the inside, once interior attack crew has knocked down the interior fire out, a primary search team would be sent in. Once the primary search is done, and fire is knocked down, a secondary search team would be sent in. Once the secondary search is complete, then mop up, and overhaul can begin. The Garage portion can also be knocked down initially with the deck gun, then entry can be made to check for extension.
The hydrant was directly in front of the fire-building.
Across the street was a utility pedestal.
@@GMan-yv8cb if the hydrant was directly in front of the burning home, then the first firefighter out of the Cab could have, and should have pulled, and stretched the supply line to the hydrant, then climbed up to run the deck gun. The Engineer can get that deck gun flowing while hand lines are being pulled and stretched, then once the deck gun is flowing, he can quickly return to hook up to the hydrant, and get his water supply established, and charge the handlines as directed by command once they are in place. Forcible Entry should have been done on the garage door to get it open enough to get a handline inside. As for lines attacking from opposing sides, I personally am not in favor of that practice because if there is fire inside of any magnitude, each team inside runs the risk of pushing that fire into the other team coming in and attacking from the opposite direction, or vice versa. No one else other than myself even mentioned doing the ever so crucial 360 degree walk around to locate utilities, and assess exactly what is burning, and where it is burning, and how hard it is burning. This is the very first thing that the OIC on scene should be doing upon arrival on any fire scene.
@@kevinswinyer3176 The engineer has to be the Engineer and only that just like a Commander has to just command. The engineer has to bring up the pressure and hook up the hydrant line at the engine. With this minimum of manpower, he could pull out some hand lines for the hydrant man and deck gunner when they were done with their initial tasks, but he has to stay with his job.
@@JB91710 part of the Engineer's job is establishing water supply, and hooking up to a hydrant is part of establishing water supply. The hydrant has the water that the engineer needs, and there are times when the Engineer will need to be the one to hook up the supply line to the hydrant, then hook the other end of it to his intake. If he is the only one available to hook up, he can't expect anyone else to stop what they have been assigned to do to hook a supply line up to the hydrant, and into the engine, and charge the hydrant. Any good Engineer will tell you that. Perfect Scenario would be for the hydrant to be right in front of the burning building every single time, and have enough guys on that first due Engine so that one guy grabs that supply line, and pulls it to the hydrant, flushes out the hydrant, hooks up to it, then stands by until instructed to charge the supply line while the Engineer stays at the panel, and the OIC assumes command, and the others are issued their assignments and start performing them, but as we all know, we don't live in a perfect environment, and not every call will have a perfect scenario to it.
@@kevinswinyer3176 Hooking up to a hydrant must always be by a designated firefighter. The engineer has to stay with the engine. They will hook up the hydrant line At the engine and open the valve. They have to monitor the pressure and open the valves for the lines. Nobody can do any of that if the engineer is at the other end of a couple of hundred feet of supply line.
With three firefighters you drop off a hydrant line with a FFer, the engineer activates the pump and the third FFer pulls a line or opens up the deck gun. With just three people you have tank water on the fire in 30-40 seconds. if the engineer doesn't focus on his job, there won't be water coming in or going out. Eventually, doesn't cut it.
True, we don't use these tabletops to say what we would do.....rather we should discuss what our evolutions should be based on conditions. Troopies can't flow water on this fire and should not go in. We need the supply set up to do that. As for this incident, we do see the drivers and other personnel, but we don't know what else they're dealing with nor their force strength. Lots of challenges here even though it looks straightforward.
Yes, St. Johns County is a paid department. I'm a VFF in a nearby county and have worked with SJFR, this is not typical of them. I agree this was slow in attack and seems to lack a solid IC. I'm going to agree to disagree on the initial master stream before a water supply is established unless there is a clear and compelling exposure hazard that needs to be darkened without delay. Some engines have only a 500 Gal tank and depending on when your second due is arriving, the IC may rather have rescue/defensive water if needed.
Absolutely agree on the misuse of water in the garage, not sure if tunnel-vision (first thing I see burning is getting wet) happened, but the IC goofed that one. Primary search in that one with a 1 3/4"? with only 2-in I'll give a yea maybe. 2 1/2" was needed given the volume of fire and involvement. This is assuming the IC does not have a 100% positive confirmation that no human rescue is required. Look, I love my pets and sometimes the Signal 7 dog or cat gets to me more than it should, but I'm going to risk a crap load more to get the person out than rescue fluffy or kit
Frantic civilians can be a very bad distraction from the tasks at hand, big fire needs big water . And something else to add here is the incident commander or first company officer on scene is the one dictating the fire attack which can reflect poorly on the the company if you don't make the right tactical decisions. Pull a big line or utilize the deck gun and transition to offensive if possible or stay defensive till more companies arrive. This type 5 construction goes up fast too.
I definitely see the deck gun argument, followed by an interior attack with the 1 3/4". Frankly, I think if they had enough pressure on that first attack line and really worked the garage, pulling a second 1 3/4" for an interior attack to go after the attic extension would have been perfectly reasonable. It is clear these guys aren't big on the concept of interior attack. Re the cat comments...agreed!!! Was told by a lieutenant in 1986 that in 20 years he'd never seen a cat skeleton in a tree...truth. :)
Its a Fast spreading fire . Drop 2, 2-1/2" hose lines and protect the exposures. Knock down exterior fire and push in. No master streams needed on this 1 story job.
Master stream yes but little wind and the houses are well spaced.
Why the did the first truck park next door? Waiting on a ladder?
Can you put the link to the original video? Thanks
Using a deck gun entrains a lot of air and oxygen. ULFSRI research on air entrainment of exterior fire streams indicates that it brings in as much as 15,000 CFM of air and oxygen. All fires "go out" eventually. Its what happens between arrival and pick-up that reveals how effective the tactics were. Were they applying Class A structural firefighting foam with their water. NIST research on Class A foam says it extinguishes fire 3 to 5 times more efficiently than plain, untreated water.
Rarely do I disagree with everything someone says, but, you’ve accomplished that.
@@TransmitThe1075 I’ve lived through these fires though. I would disagree with you but I don’t recall seeing you there after the smoke was gone.
That you initially said “….I would be okay with an 1-3/4” line for initial attack,” has me convinced that you are a novice. This is a fire that has burned beyond ordinary proportions prior to arrival of the FD. The protection of exposures on either side of the main fire building is PARAMOUNT. That’s why you drop 2, 2-1/2” hose lines (not just “…one 2-1/2” as you added indecisively). Get with the program. Big fire, big water, but never train a master stream on an opening in an occupied structure fire unless it is your intention to kill someone inside. That’s my experience of using a deck gun when you should not, but what could I possibly know about that sort of thing?
Chief Hughes
Battalion 1 (retired)
Chicago FD 35 years on the job.
For what it's worth, Truck 16 in front of the house is a hazmat unit. It has a large remote controlled light tower on top but no deck gun. Why a hazmat unit was the first to arrive I cannot answer.
Thanks for the information, maybe they were out of quarters, and happened to arrive first due.
Excellent 👍👍
Thank you! Cheers!
Big fire, big water.
However that can be accomplished. Reset the fire, then mop up with manageable hand lines...
I to live in saint Johns county fl. I’m also a firefighter not with Saint John, the should have been at lease one engine station closer than 10 miles away. I had a fire in my Nabiorhood and the response was quick and the tactics that were use were appropriate for the fire conditions, it was the same type home in size and looked to have been built by the same builder. That fire was put out in lest than 7 min t from the time that they got on scene. But then again it was about 10 or 11 years ago. My point is the level of experience is not the same as it was then. A lot of new kids that lack that experience that the old timers had but is now retired. It shows.
I think there are too many departments that think you have to have a water supply setup before you can use the deck gun because they only have 750 - 1000 gallons of water.
Exactly
What about the Bravo side exposure?
I remember when the video first came out and thinking 1075 is going to go nuts on this one. Well "K". Training training training. Deck-gun absolutely, 2-1/2 kick the fount door, water supply. It should have been muscle memory size up.
😜👍👍👍👍👍
Did anyone think to throw some ladders? Since I don’t see one aerial truck showing up even. Curious to see what the SOP/SOG for the department are as well.
@LB5111, I had mentioned a Truck Company doing vertical venting, due to the close proximity of overhead obstructions, it would have been nearly impossible to employ the aerial ladder in this case, however, it would have been the responsibility of the first in truck company to take on the task of throwing ladders up.
Personally I think there is “truck work” to be done. But I don’t think ladder throwing in this particular case is required. Fire is and has already burned through roof, its a 1 story building. Plenty of other truck work left. Forcible entry, horizontal ventilation, pulling ceilings, search to name a few. .
It's a single story house with fire through the roof. Ain't nobody getting on that roof. What are the ladders for?
The house is gone. Such a big loss. The men need real training.
I totally agree with everything that you said. 100% Deck gun first, transition to hand lines. This is painful to watch.
Before I see the video I notice lots of fire and a hydrant pretty much in front of the house.
Before I get into my critique of this hideous performance, I have to say this. You are Way to kind to the so called "Professionals" in these videos. The USA fire service needs a swift kick in the butt and the viewers, who think they are all heroes Just because the Joined Up, Dressed Up and Showed Up, need a wakeup call.
First thing I see is two FFers standing there doing nothing while the hydrant line needs to be pulled to that hydrant.
If that's the engineer on the deck gun, he shouldn't be up there. One of those two Lawn Statues should be up there.
Watch those two keep standing there as the video progresses.
3:25 The do all engineer has left the deck gun without using it and the two Lawn Statues haven't moved.
4:00 Finally there is a water pistol in play.
6:00 This is way beyond ridiculous. The officers in this department need to be replaced immediately. I can't even call this an amateur operation. There is no thinking or planning here at all.
IS THAT HYDRANT STILL NOT HOOKED UP?
8:45 The garage is still burning and threatening the house and FFers with all those flammable liquid containers people keep in there. Lots of VBM showing through the roof that could be soaked and these guys think it is a good idea to go into this firebomb of a house to extinguish burning material they can no longer access.
9:00 Can you imagine what three FFers with that deck gun running could have done to this picture? Watch those two "Walkers" that have no idea what to do. Watch the engineer ignore and not direct them. Everything here is disconnected because nothing is being coordinated.
All firefighters have to be trained to THINK, not just wait to be told what to do.
How many entry teams have you seen being driven out of a burning structure because they didn't extinguish everything they could see from the outside First?
This is how this should have played out in the first minute of arrival.
1. The engineer activates the pump.
2. One FFer on the Deck Gun.
3. One FFer pulling the supply line to the hydrant.
4. The engineer pulls an easy to handle 1-3/4" line for the deck gun FFer when they have knocked down all visible combustion.
5. Hydrant FFer pulls an additional 1-3/4" line to the back where the heavy smoke is showing.
You now have supply and two lines hitting this from opposite directions. Any additional FFers can create an entry team once all Visible Burning Material has been extinguished through the doors and windows. Three to Four competent workers could have taken on this house by themselves with one engine and the hydrant.
A third world group of volunteers could have done a better job than these misfits. Do you really think they disserve any respect at all? I wouldn't have any of them sweeping floors.
Thanks for the detailed opinion
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Fireman BRZ
Russian Firefighter 👩🚒
I don't know anything but this appears to be a paid department not volunteer simply from the age and condition of the equipment and the gear the firefighters are wearing. Jacksonville Florida, yes paid
Hey im a younger guy and newer to the fire service in a volunteer department, im not very informed about other fire departments but with a crew with 2 in the back and an officer why didnt one of them catch the hydrant? is the engineer taking hydrants instead of a layout guy more common in outside departments? especially since the engineer wanted to use the deck gun off rip, we have a layout man that wouldve dropped a humat (or just a cupling for this department) and the 2nd due start flowing water, especially when it was right infront of the house?
also, why were no lines directed at the exposure to the bravo side of the building? sorry if these are dumb questions but i just wanted to ask
That engineer had no idea what his job was because this department never planned anything. From what I saw here, they show up and wing it. This department has no Thinking Leadership.
In this case, with hydrant so close and fire spreading so fast, I think, pulling up and going immediately with water and hand stretching the line back to the hydrant was the way to go. Could do either but my way gets water on fire faster.
The only dumb question is the one you don't ask!
IMHO, if the first thousand gallons of water doesn't solve the problem, then the next 20,000 gallons also won't solve it. most engines carry 500-1000 gallons of water, and with a single 1 3/4" line flowing 150 GPM that is between 3:20 and 6:40 of continuous water application before you run out. You can get a significant knock on the fire with three and a half minutes of water application, and if the hydrant is nearby, the engineer should be able to get a water supply in that time. Conversely, if you stop to grab a water supply on the way in, you are giving the fire another couple of minutes to grow and depriving yourself of one of your crew until they get back from the hydrant, which will slow your attack even more. Even if you run out of water, you have reset the fire significantly and are in a better position to wait.
As for why not protect the Bravo exposure, my guess is that conditions were such that it wasn't necessary. The seat of the fire seems to have been in the garage and while it was blowing fire out, it was mostly on the alpha side. This is one of those "We will never know, but i am giving them the benefit of the doubt" situations.
I'm gonna guess that's a 3 man engine. If it's a 4 man rig someone is missing. I didn't see a reason why the engineer couldn't hand jack the supply line himself, which they typically will if the hydrant is that close, but I believe the FF who tagged the hydrant was off the medic unit. I'd guess the plan was to have the FF1 pull a line and the officer back him up after he did a 360 but the line should've been a 2 1/2 (If you run 3 man rigs, your dudes have to be able to handle a 2 1/2 on their own for a while) and the 2nd line should have been an 1 3/4 that went right in the house with hooks.
Big fire or a lot of fire... Big water! I would have deck gunned, hit the front door and pulled ceiling and the gable end to get more water in the attic space and definitely a 2 1/2 or 3" first off the rig.
Agree, I think if you hit it with a deck on, you’re probably just fine with an 1 3/4”. 2 1/2 is a bear to manage inside a house.
Hey chief. Bottom line there are no extenuating circumstances at this fire.
Just call it what it is. A poorly organized, fire department with poor leadership and training. In my 50+ years of observing fire departments from Maine to Florida there are many fire departments that do poor jobs. It is the Chiefs responsibility to see that his department is well trained and has qualified and well experienced officers leading their men.
Are firefighters trained to view a structure with a hierarchy placing more value on a house vs a garage? I would hope so. If not, why not?!?!?!?
Great question.
Me too you are right 👍
"There's a cat", " is it inside?"," no it's in the backyard","is it in a run?","no, it's in the backyard", "then leave it alone, cats aren't that fecking stupid"
Deck gun, one guy, Hydrant 2nd guy, immediate, knock down, while the guy on the deck gun is knocking down another 2 can be getting a 2 1/2 to go in. this is bad, I can't even watch. My crew has 4 people for about ten minutes and we do more than this.
Perhaps the use of the deck gun was decided against as it is so powerful it may force burning pieces of burning house onto the nearby houses. Anyway, from simply watching a video we will never know what the firefighters on the scene know and the factors they are using for their plan of action.
Perhaps no.
Your chances of extension to the B/D sides is significantly higher if you let it continue to burn. Put the dang fire out by any means necessary. I'm a fan of the 2.5" on that fire, but a deck gun isn't going push fire or debris onto neighboring homes.
Mike Pertz has a great deck gun knock down video called 500 gallons in 50 seconds. Check it out and let me know what your thoughts are. Thank you
I have multiple deck gun videos. Please check them out.
@TransmitThe1075 I already saved like 4 of them to my watch later Playlist. And it's later and I am going to take a look. Then I got a great story to tell you about getting stopped by a fire dept captain in my Transit Mix concrete truck. You will crack up but I helped save a building from going up in flames.
@TransmitThe1075 I told you I had a story, so here it goes. I drove Transit Mix concrete truck for about 15 years and returning back to the yard for another load. I noticed a decent smoke plume. So I got to the smoke, and it was a car fire under a wooden awning that was connected all the way across the small strip mall. I have a 200-gallon water tank charged with high-pressure air. Had about 145 left in the tank and jumped out, hit the car, and knocked it down pretty good. Still burning cause the hood was closed, then went after the wooden awning and signage the car was parked under. It made a huge difference. A Battalion Chief was the first arrival, and he hit the car with a small ext. By the time the first due engine showed up, the car needed to be hit with higher flow, but everything was knocked down substantially. The funny thing about it was my company was going to write me up for stopping to help with the fire and not returning to get reloaded. The Battalion Chief said I was going to get an award from the county cause he said what I did saved the strip mall from a major incident. Before I left I rolled up my hose and left the fire I had the Chief call my boss and tell him that he flagged me down to see if I still had water and told them about maybe getting an award. I didn't get a write-up, but they wouldn't give me the time off for the award. It made me feel good that he said I made the difference.
It's not a deck gun but very high pressure flow. I got another couple of good ones, but you tell me if you want to read it. Take care and be safe.
Greg. TRUE STORY
Critique the critiquer. To be fair, show us a video of YOUR department.
I’ve tried to be as fair and open minded as I could here. As I’ve mentioned on many of my videos, in my 32 years in the fire service both volunteer and career I have without question been to my share of cluster fucks. I also managed to fall through a floor in my early days, get shocked from a service panel and certainly have seen and made mistakes on the way. That said, it is rather obvious, from anyone who has a halfway decent experience level, that this wasn’t this department’s finest hour. We’ve all been there at some point. If, and when the time comes, and I review a video from my region, I will certainly try to be as consistent as I can.
Well, at least they got the cat. 🙂
Yes. Doesn’t seem injured, sooty or singed.
Where’s the truck company at
What a CLF! Deck gun most underused piece of equipment!
You are 100% correct in all that your saying, just goes to show that no matter the cost of equipment, if you dont have qualified personell what good is it, by the way if you want to see the ugliest fire apparatus just go to Cheney Washington and youll see ugly lol.
Salty today? Ha
If you aren't moving the nozzle or advancing then you should have a good reason why this isn't happening. Unfortunately I didn't see a good reason here so fair criticism. I did have hope when those boys pulled the hooks off of the back that entry was occurring but the video doesn't show any progress.
This is a sad depiction of the department I work for. Not their finest hour for sure
Shit happens. We’ve all been there at some point.
I heard that one cat didn't survive.
🐈🔥🚑💒
you think they might be having a bad day? no excuse! that was someone's HOME! they can't afford to have a bad day! period! Now why hook up to hydrant? you have said in previous video's 500 gallon more than enough to knock down a full fire! these video's make keystone cops look professional, but it comes down to one thing! no National Fire fighting Standard that every firefighter is trained to. its like every State has there own different standards, but as the US is so keen on the blame game, home owners and businesses are the only ones who can change this! by suing the butts out of these fire departments on then changes will be made for the better.
Dump the tank!
Lots of activity , lots if running around , lots of talking , alas no water on fire .
WTF
Oh Lord.... ~ floriduh ~
Who cares if a fire truck is "ugly"? The important thing is - does it do what it was designed o do?
Since when? Looking cool is the most important, everybody knows that. 🤪😜🔥🔥
@@TransmitThe1075 unless you are talking about that one Cab that Pierce used to build. The FUGLY QUANTUM !!!!! That thing was soooo FUGLY you would have to shut it down, and push it to the fire so that it don't scare the flames away ... THANK GOD THEY FINALLY QUIT BUILDING THAT HIDEOUS ABORTION THAT THEY CALLED FIRE APPARATUS !!!!!
Seems like a department that over engineers it's apparatus. A tech rescue truck oh that's also an engine. And what purpose does a vista cab serve other than to drive up the cost? This is a common solution to staffing issues. Rather that staff a separate heavy rescue and and engine we will combine them both into one so we only need 4 personnel instead of 8
This is like roadkill on PA highways, rarely do we ever see anyone go strait to the deck gun. 1 million vids of BIG FIRE, and 999,000 videos of either 8min to get water flowing or second alarm to get big water flowing. I'm in a rural area. All of our first due area have 1000gal engines who will arrive first, it's our sop to hit everything that involves 2 divisions and has free burning fire showing. If we are in town with a hydrant in front of the house it will be a cold day in hell before we will ever reach a 40 minute timer.
Yeah WOW!!!
UGLY ENGINE ! DONT KNOW ABOUT THE 30 LASHES,MAYBE STAND IN THE CORNER FOR A WEEK ! GREAT CHANNEL ! I AM IN ! "GO AHEAD" ! 🇺🇸
Thanks
Win or Loose first 3 Minutes
👍👍👍🔥
Everyone specs deck guns and never use them. I hate seeing guys open the nozzle and close the nozzle after a few seconds!,
Even the recognized major departments, such as NYC, seem to have trouble getting water on fires. These Florida guys appear to spend their down time playing dominoes or shopping for groceries. A family planning to move to a new city should investigate how good is its fire department. But nobody seems to give that a thought. I've lived in my house for 43 years and have no idea how the city's FD performs at fire scenes.
I WOULD HAVE USED THE DECK GUN!!
Yeh
Such bad firefighting by this dept.
I am not impressed by full paid Dept they ruined my town with pension and never got more than 4 ff om the Dept and all full paid firefighter move to Indiana were they don't pay firefighter
Though I am not impressed with this incident with this department, having 4 fully staffed fireman on an engine 24 hours a day is a great benefit to any community. Getting response times under four minutes, being there for all types of emergencies, including medical, motor vehicle, accident, gas leaks, fires, alarms etc. Is well worth the cost in my view, but of course I am biased.
@@TransmitThe1075 really then why are firefighter shopping more in my town than fighting fires it's a do nothing job remember paid firefighter try to kill part time and poc firefighter.. remember ur talking to. People that were pulled over going to fires so the cops and paid firefighter could make us look bad remember it doesn't take a brain surgeon to put wet stuff on Red stuff
@@TransmitThe1075 Stop lying
😂😂😂
Those who can... do
Those who can't... critique
PS
"They should have used a deck gun!"
😆😅😂🤣
@virgilhilts you’re back! Where have you been? As mentioned many times, we talk about things like this, so hopefully these incidents don’t repeat themselves. Many of the young inexperienced guys find it very helpful and are requesting more of them. And older more experienced veterans can spread their knowledge. Sort of like the fire you were on that we critiqued many many months ago. I am so sorry you found the evaluation uncomfortable. We mean you no ill will. And we’re more than happy to have you comment and give us your perspective of this or any incident reviewed. Be well.
Yes for the Deck gun and what about dropping a water supply hose to the Engine.
As mentioned already, I’m not opposed to wrapping a hydrant on the way in, in this case, the hydrant is so close, that I think getting water on it first while stretching by hand is the right call.
Fancy Equipment and not much effort to put out the fire.
This is a disorganized scene.
Foundation savers
Unfortunately on this day.
Saving the foundation 😂😂😂😂😂😂omg to funny