Ark Nova - GameNight! Se10 Ep43 - How to Play and Playthrough

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  • Опубликовано: 3 авг 2024
  • Thanks so much to Gamegenic - gamegenic.com - for the accessories and sponsoring this episode!
    Tonight on GameNight! Nikki, Aaron & Lincoln teach and play "Ark Nova" designed by Mathias Wigge and published by Feuerland Spiele and Capstone Games.
    Intro: 0:00
    How to play: 2:02
    Game play: 43:43
    Discussion: 3:04:46
    Find the Gamegenic products we use here:
    Token Silo: bit.ly/3JBZiFF
    Sidekick XL: bit.ly/48u9if2
    Sleeves: bit.ly/43wtHNU
    Subscribe & join us each Thursday for more Tabletop games!
    For more information about "Ark Nova": boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3...
    Follow us at:
    Twitter: @boardgamegeek, Nikki @ChilibeanNP, Lincoln @heccubustwit
    Instagram: boardgamegeek, Lincoln heccubustwit
    facebook: gamenightbgg
    MB01BBDMJXVYFTH
  • ИгрыИгры

Комментарии • 139

  • @CheeseDud
    @CheeseDud Год назад +10

    I've played this game several times but I'll still watch this whole playthrough :)

    • @FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb
      @FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb Год назад +1

      That's me after getting this game this week and playing Saturday and Sunday, and now watching this today lol

  • @Clasteau
    @Clasteau Год назад +5

    This looks amazing. And it also looks like nobody else in my house would play it with me, LOL.

  • @joshkable
    @joshkable Год назад +23

    Aaron did a fantastic job with the rules teach!

  • @bastwood
    @bastwood Год назад +61

    I don't think drawing cards from your reputation range incurs an additional cost; You only pay extra when playing cards from the reputation range.

    • @wingspangirl
      @wingspangirl Год назад +1

      I agree. Just checked the rules.

    • @jefff.2052
      @jefff.2052 Год назад

      @@wingspangirl Yup. The extra cost is just to play directly from the display.

    • @reggycide
      @reggycide Год назад +5

      Spot on, no extra cost if taking the card into your hand, only if you have upgraded Animals and are playing animal cards from the display to put into your zoo immediately.

    • @dkoudrin
      @dkoudrin Год назад +1

      Indeed that would make taking cards at the end of the track prohibitively expensive.

    • @robertrichardson1011
      @robertrichardson1011 Год назад +4

      I came here to say this too. I thought I was playing wrong. My understanding is that drawing cards is always free. But if I played an animal or sponsor card from my rep range that's when I pay the additional costs

  • @HigjiH
    @HigjiH Год назад +5

    I love this game! Some mistakes here and there, but also some mistakes we have been doing (so thank you) 😅 I could watch you guys for days and days 😁 this is my kind of tv entertainment. Thank you so much for the video!

  • @GothWarriorGeek
    @GothWarriorGeek Год назад +8

    I'm SO happy you guys posted this game! Been hoping you would do a game night of it!

  • @AndreaVarnier
    @AndreaVarnier Год назад +5

    This is one I was really hoping for! Thank you guys, it's always a pleasure watching you play ❤️

  • @kjellkanin
    @kjellkanin Год назад +1

    I've played this game a couple of times in the past but still enjoyed watching the video and it helped clear up a couple of rules that I'd missed!

  • @kathywebb6667
    @kathywebb6667 Год назад +1

    I have been waiting for you guys to play this! Glad Aaron was here to teach it!

  • @jeffradiane
    @jeffradiane 11 месяцев назад +2

    Gah! I was invited to play this on BGA, and it looks pretty frightening. This video is extraordinarily helpful. Thank You!

  • @RobotButlerJ
    @RobotButlerJ Год назад +1

    I love the lengthy game!! Thank you for posting this!

  • @patricksteele
    @patricksteele Год назад +2

    Excellent timing. I hope to play this for the first time tomorrow!

  • @hxjdjdn6236
    @hxjdjdn6236 Год назад +1

    Finally you made this playthrough! I could not wait to see you guys playing. 🥰

  • @cuebiyar
    @cuebiyar Год назад +14

    Also at 1:15:00 when Lincoln plays the scarlet macaw, when the animal card has the partnership requirement/condition on the left it has to match with the animal's continent on the top right "Condition: have a partner zoo of the same continent" from the 'icon overview' which is the America's for the macaw and Lincoln's only partnership (at this point at least) is Europe.

    • @psramirez09paul
      @psramirez09paul Год назад

      I believe the condition is to have any partner zoo, which he did have at the time.

    • @cuebiyar
      @cuebiyar Год назад +3

      I quote the rule from the 'icon overview' in my comment. You must have the matching partner zoo for an animal. It's only when it's on a sponsor card that any partnership is fine.

    • @Rex__Danger
      @Rex__Danger Год назад +1

      Exactly. This is one of the things you must remember from the rules and that are not that obvious. On an animal card, a "partner zoo" requirement means a partner zoo in the same continent that the animal is from (the icon on the upper left). It is thematic, but does not show on the card. It is the same thing as when the animal as an enclosure rock/water adjacency requirement, when the animal can also be put in an aviary or a reptile house. Those special enclosure must also respect the water/rock requirement, even if no symbol is showing on their symbol. Again, thematic, but not specified on the card.

  • @matthewdavis101
    @matthewdavis101 Год назад +1

    Yes! I cannot wait to see you all play. I adore this game.

  • @patricksteele
    @patricksteele Год назад +1

    That was a great teach and playthrough. It really helped me follow the game. Thanks!

  • @jankogo
    @jankogo Год назад

    Nice playthrough, guys! This game really sings at three. One of my favorites at the moment. Can´t wait for the expansion...

  • @meganlove5681
    @meganlove5681 Год назад +15

    1:01:47 Lincoln takes cards and one of the cards he gets is actually a base conservation card (has a green back). It’s not supposed to be in the deck with all the other cards

    • @boardgamegeek
      @boardgamegeek  Год назад +11

      Megan, I caught it later off camera. It's a bummer because I was building to that card and when I realized it I was too far along for the card I ended up getting. Thanks for the note and for watching.-Lincoln

  • @theworldofron2712
    @theworldofron2712 Год назад +3

    When you draw from within your reputation range it is ALWAYS free. When you do it from your ungraded cards directly from the board is when you pay additional costs.

  • @marekhajducak7428
    @marekhajducak7428 Год назад +6

    Lincol has ilegal placement of kiosk there, two of them are just one space away of each others. To many times someone forgot fill enclousure when animals was played, but it is a beast of the game so yeah, so much stuff to look on while you playing. But looks very good, thanks for playthrough.

  • @normaruthgamarrabaldomir6748
    @normaruthgamarrabaldomir6748 Год назад +1

    Thank you! I was waiting for you to play this game!

  • @jacobnewman6893
    @jacobnewman6893 Год назад +1

    Omg!!! thank you guys for playing this amazing game!!!

  • @Sajatzsiraf
    @Sajatzsiraf Год назад +1

    Well, ever since those *hints* during the streams, I have been waiting patiently. Mostly patiently. Okay, impatiently, you win!

  • @JonTripp115
    @JonTripp115 Год назад +2

    It was worth watching this whole video just for "Emu Philips". Good job, Lincoln.

  • @starcloak
    @starcloak Год назад +4

    A three hour long GameNight video with an animal themed board game, sound awesome. Just gotten through the "How to play" part and the game seems intriguing.

  • @ramonvanderben8120
    @ramonvanderben8120 Год назад +5

    What a great game and great video!!! Loved Aaron's explanation... Just a quick remark on gameplay. At 2:08:05 Lincoln plays a kiosk, but puts it in an illegal location. According to Aaron's explanation it should have been at least 2 spaces away from the nearest other kiosk, but it is only 1space away ... Still excellent stuff…

  • @cuebiyar
    @cuebiyar Год назад +19

    Aaron played the stork at 1:31:10 which requires a Europe icon and didnt have any in his zoo.

    • @psramirez09paul
      @psramirez09paul Год назад

      Correct. This card should not have been allowed since the card prerequisite was to has this icon in your zoo, which he did not have at the time.

  • @breezerama
    @breezerama Месяц назад

    Aaron is my fave game teacher!

  • @anthonyashley9224
    @anthonyashley9224 Год назад +4

    Just to clarify there is no additional cost above that of paying the cost on the animal card for a card action, either non upgraded or up graded, or if you snap a card. The cost recorded on the folder next to available animals is only paid when you are doing an UPGRADED ANIMAL ACTION and placing the card on the board from those available ON THE BOARD within your reputation range. I only just realised this additIonal cost when I picked up the rule error in this video.

    • @anthonyashley9224
      @anthonyashley9224 Год назад +1

      Just to clarify further the cost of the animal is only paid on the ANIMAL ACTION.

  • @jarnevanperck8708
    @jarnevanperck8708 Год назад +2

    Wauw damn never been so fast :O
    Love the game!!!

  • @gamesgourmet
    @gamesgourmet Год назад +3

    Ciao from italy! Nice shirt 👍

  • @isitmyturn9199
    @isitmyturn9199 Год назад +2

    Note at 2:43:45 when Lincoln snapped a card dusing the break, it should have been refilled immediatly. This would have made a difference to which cards were available for Aaron to Snap.

  • @sdop
    @sdop Год назад +2

    Bravo Aaron! 🇮🇹

  • @psramirez09paul
    @psramirez09paul Год назад +2

    1:42:00
    Lincoln’s sponsor card is flipped, which allows for X level +1. Lincoln was at level 3, plus 1 = level 4. Therefore only one X was needed to make the sponsor level a level 5 not the two X’s spent.

  • @tomcrane9448
    @tomcrane9448 Год назад +1

    This game is beautiful and lovely photos of animals and concepts like releasing into the wild, partner zoos, research etc but you need an app to keep track of the extra scoring and quite complicated to play. I don't think I could play it but great to see you guys play it always very entertaining. Not the sort of game for a quick dinner party!

  • @SaschaKleiber
    @SaschaKleiber Год назад +2

    25:00 It is also worth mentioning that you can only get each continent once. So you can't get two european partner zoos for an even better cost bonus.

  • @gbdomingo
    @gbdomingo Год назад +1

    Yey! Luv this game

  • @KurtDepner
    @KurtDepner Год назад +1

    Great video guys! Always great to see my favorite game on the table. One early mistake by Aaron: He played a stork that requires a European tag already in play, which he didn't have.

  • @brockh4422
    @brockh4422 Год назад +1

    I really like watching episodes of GN! with these more complicated games. I get to easily pick up on how wrong I was playing the game before, ruleswise.

  • @TheBlueFlame112
    @TheBlueFlame112 Год назад +1

    I love how the glasses pop into place at 1:38:23 xD He even looks a bit spooked when it happens. Yet proceeds as though nothing happened. Thats so hilarious

  • @FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb
    @FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb Год назад +3

    At 1:54:39 Nicky snapped when she could have just picked the card up and a couple of others from reputation range or the deck. The rules error that made you guys pay to draw cards from reputation range makes the game much harder.

  • @madmayson
    @madmayson Год назад

    much prefer learning and watching games i have heard of like this :)

  • @cuebiyar
    @cuebiyar Год назад +4

    FYI In the game's FAQ when multiple people are snapping during a break, the display replenishes between each player.

    • @kmechwarrior1684
      @kmechwarrior1684 Год назад

      Haven't played multi-player yet, but good to know

    • @seymour_krelborn
      @seymour_krelborn 11 месяцев назад

      Was looking for this, too. Definitely a good thing to know, and makes sense, too.

  • @shawnrynearson6114
    @shawnrynearson6114 Год назад +3

    Great episode and game, the only thing that would have made it better is Dave.

  • @dpokan
    @dpokan Год назад +2

    Platypus mostly eat fresh water shellfish. They are not herbivores.

  • @skitch76cd
    @skitch76cd Год назад +1

    Wait, that’s a notebook icon? I always saw it as half a film reel and never knew why 😂 Notebooks make more sense…I can see that as a ring binding now

  • @Duxa_
    @Duxa_ Год назад +2

    Great game, have this and TM, still prefer TM.

  • @Soltylar
    @Soltylar Год назад +2

    My zoo only ended up with one dog in it. It was a a Shitzu...

  • @reggycide
    @reggycide Год назад

    Emu is ee-myew not emoo. I love this game, well done on giving it a try.

  • @gamerisborn5346
    @gamerisborn5346 Год назад

    1:41:56, Lincoln plays upgraded support action which already on 3X after adding two X tokens and played 5X power of support card on his hand. Although it's a legal move, he should have spent only 1 extra X token over there since with the upgraded support action, you can play X+1 power of card.

  • @nicklasjohannsen4363
    @nicklasjohannsen4363 6 месяцев назад

    Funny that there are different rules for counting victory points. In my rulebook is says "If blue has 16 conservation points; the little white number in that space is 24, and blue has 80 appeal then blues total score is (24+80=) 104 victory points"

  • @skitch76cd
    @skitch76cd Год назад +3

    Oh, I just noticed the BGG logos on the Gamegenic card holders. Neat! Did they do that special for you, or did you do it after-market?

    • @boardgamegeek
      @boardgamegeek  Год назад

      They custtom made those for us! They are really nice. We are discussing ideas for some custom branded stuff to do with Gamegenic. Thanks for the note and for watching.-Lincoln

  • @robbieduhon2522
    @robbieduhon2522 Год назад +5

    First I really enjoy watching most of the playthroughs on this channel. I do have a rules question. Around the 2:08 mark Lincoln builds a kiosk next to the pavilion, but is it actually a legal placement? It looks to be only two places away from the one already placed. Sorry if I'm incorrect or if it is corrected later in the video.

    • @Cappocchi
      @Cappocchi Год назад

      It's still there an hour later so it looks like we just never caught it! Good eye.

    • @SaschaKleiber
      @SaschaKleiber Год назад

      at 2:08 they are still in the how to play part?

    • @robbieduhon2522
      @robbieduhon2522 Год назад

      @@SaschaKleiber I usually watch videos on my
      TV which doesn't have seconds. So for you it would be somewhere around the 2 hour 8 minute mark. Sorry for the confusion.

    • @kmechwarrior1684
      @kmechwarrior1684 Год назад

      Yep, too close. But not bad at all overall for first time playing...

  • @the_luggage
    @the_luggage 7 месяцев назад

    1:46:09 Be careful, there's a floating piece of board!

  • @wingspangirl
    @wingspangirl Год назад +6

    I'm so happy to be able to watch one of my favourite games played by my favourite game group. Thank you so much. A little question: is there a rule that lets you start the game with an x token? I can't seem to find it.

    • @Cappocchi
      @Cappocchi Год назад +2

      I really thought there was, but looking over the setup again it appears I was mistaken.

  • @edwindrood2816
    @edwindrood2816 Год назад +1

    Well, came off alright in the end

  • @lukedorazio9038
    @lukedorazio9038 Год назад

    Where can I buy the deck holders from that you guys use in this video! Awesome video by the way. Ark Nova is my favourite!

    • @billmiller5722
      @billmiller5722 11 месяцев назад

      They look like "Squire" boxes from GameGenic

  • @WetWhoops
    @WetWhoops Год назад

    Awesome! I love this game. I do think the blue band at the bottom of some animal cards is only used in the solo variant. Is that correct?

    • @aaronmoore54
      @aaronmoore54 Год назад +3

      They are always played for solo play and are optional for multiplayer; some people don’t like the take that negative interaction and can play the blue action instead.

    • @WetWhoops
      @WetWhoops Год назад

      @@aaronmoore54 I never realized they were optional for multiplayer. That’s cool! I’ll have to try it out. Thanks!

    • @matthewramsey4960
      @matthewramsey4960 Год назад

      No you can play it with multiplayer

  • @Clasteau
    @Clasteau Год назад

    @51:30 dooby dooby do bah, dooby dooby doo bah

  • @hugooliveira8529
    @hugooliveira8529 10 месяцев назад

    Just one little clarification about the game setup so i dont make any mistakes... they all started with an X token in their board with the 25 money, but in the rulebook doesnt say anything about starting with an X token...
    Can someone tell me if there is something about it in the rulebook and where it is?

  • @gmoney9992
    @gmoney9992 Год назад

    I've always wanted to try this out, but man, 40+ mins teach has my eyes glazing over lol

  • @psramirez09paul
    @psramirez09paul Год назад

    1:06:10
    Income for kiosk. You should only receive income for each different type of enclosure.
    If you have two size 2 next to a kiosk, you should only receive 1 income not two.

    • @boardgamegeek
      @boardgamegeek  Год назад

      Paul, I believe that is incorrect. You can have more than one of the same type of building and collect income. There was a discussion previously in the comments about this. Thanks for the note and for watching. -Lincoln

    • @psramirez09paul
      @psramirez09paul Год назад

      I had read this differently.
      See page 18 of the rule book under the break sea room - rule 5b.
      I read this as each unique building. This may be referring to the sponsor building and such. There is then a comma then states occupied standard enclosures.
      I now see it as you describe. Thanks for the comment back.

    • @psramirez09paul
      @psramirez09paul Год назад

      3:07:15
      I believe what Nikki says here is perfect. Trying to keep track of everything that compounds and the rules is what is intriguing about this game. It provides constant communication with each other which is a draw to this game for me. Games are suppose to provide interaction and conversation.

  • @theworldofron2712
    @theworldofron2712 Год назад

    I have played this game many times and have never moved an upgraded card to the 1 slot. I did not find this rule in the book.

  • @zacharymartin1477
    @zacharymartin1477 Год назад +1

    Fantastic game. Wish it was a tad shorter on play time.

  • @kevincolton3440
    @kevincolton3440 Год назад

    What kind of deck/draw boxes are those?

  • @alexandrecarvalhoalmeida3372
    @alexandrecarvalhoalmeida3372 Год назад

    Where can I find one of those deck holders? Thanks for the video!

    • @boardgamegeek
      @boardgamegeek  11 месяцев назад

      Those are the Squire deck boxes from Gamegenic. You can see them here: boardgamegeekstore.com/collections/gamegenic/products/gamegenic-squire-100-xl . Thanks for the note and for watching. -Lincoln

  • @pfefferle74
    @pfefferle74 Год назад +1

    I played St. Petersburg with my friends yesterday. Same kind of tense game with only 10% of rules and material.

  • @ElanDivan
    @ElanDivan Год назад +1

    1:46:10 What is Nikki thinking about?

  • @OEllinas89
    @OEllinas89 Год назад

    Why only one person took the 1 conversation point bonus for supporting projects and then so late in the game? I would say this is maybe the strongest bonus on those beginner maps....
    Anyway great playthrough.

  • @Colin1486
    @Colin1486 6 месяцев назад +1

    2:08:05 kiosk placed incorrectly

  • @user-qc8sq5ow2z
    @user-qc8sq5ow2z 7 месяцев назад

    Many more board games out there out of my erea. I like the new KIOTE stores online.

  • @scottjacoby2594
    @scottjacoby2594 Год назад

    Hey Lincoln, where do you get your non-hockey hockey jerseys from?

    • @boardgamegeek
      @boardgamegeek  Год назад +1

      Scott, so far I have bought them all from Geeky Jerseys. I love their stuff and have far too many. Thanks for the note and for watching. -Lincoln

    • @scottjacoby2594
      @scottjacoby2594 Год назад

      @@boardgamegeek Thanks! I’ll check them out!

  • @macapaka25
    @macapaka25 6 месяцев назад

    Can anyone point me in the direction of where to get a deck holder like that please

    • @boardgamegeek
      @boardgamegeek  6 месяцев назад

      Those are from Gamegenic, the BGG store has them here: Sidekick XL: bit.ly/48u9if2 Thanks for watching.-Lincoln

  • @Sweden86
    @Sweden86 Год назад

    hi what a great video as always when you guys play in. I've been thinking for a long time about buying the Ark Nova game but I want to be more sure it's worth the money as it costs quite a bit. Which is perfectly fine as it is really well done. My insecurity to buy is also that it is incredibly complicated and it makes me afraid that I won't be able to get through it.. I have a question, I see you protect your ark nova game cards with plastic pockets, what exactly are these? size, type, manufacturer's brand and where you bought them ? thanks in advance best regarss Marie from Sweden

    • @boardgamegeek
      @boardgamegeek  11 месяцев назад +1

      @marieahlberg5158 those are Gamegenic Matte sleeves. They are pretty widely available. You need 6 packs of the Gray sleeves. Thanks so much for the kind words and for watching. -Lincoln

  • @TheGUNdalf
    @TheGUNdalf 10 месяцев назад

    I bought this game a year ago but I never got around to learn and play it…. Everytime I want to learn it…. it feels clunky and not fun. Thats why I watch this video but after 35 minutes of learning rules and forgetting every rule that Aaron taught before I don‘t feel motivated enough to watch it further 😂

  • @Sem5626
    @Sem5626 Год назад +1

    wait so you can just use a sponsor to get a special enclosure? well this changes everything

  • @Brwykk
    @Brwykk Год назад

    What shirt is Lincoln wearing? I absolutely love it!!

    • @boardgamegeek
      @boardgamegeek  Год назад +1

      Brwkk, that is a Geeky Jerseys shirt "Ugly Spuds". I love their jerseys and own far too many! Thanks for the note and for watching.-Lincoln

    • @Brwykk
      @Brwykk Год назад

      @@boardgamegeek thanks a ton for the reply 🙏🙏

  • @HALOX30
    @HALOX30 Год назад +1

    I dont think you start with an X token

    • @boardgamegeek
      @boardgamegeek  Год назад +1

      You are correct. Aaron had played this once before and believes he might have been taught that during that play. Thanks for the note and for watching.-Lincoln

  • @stevegeorge7773
    @stevegeorge7773 Год назад

    The differene between Sponsorship and Association actions to me is confusing.

    • @werewolfkai
      @werewolfkai Год назад

      Sponsor action is in order to play the blue banner Sponsor cards. (or, if lacking a card, to take money and move break token)
      Association action is putting a meeple onto the sideboard and doing one of the qualifying actions over there

  • @JoeBlogs987
    @JoeBlogs987 11 месяцев назад

    Six sides is not a pentagon

  • @Vaaluin
    @Vaaluin 15 дней назад

    I love everything about this game except for the awful royalty free pictures on the cards. I wish they would have taken the time for some hand drawn art like in In the Footsteps of Darwin or Wingspan.

  • @meganlove5681
    @meganlove5681 Год назад +16

    Warning to those new to this game…Do not use this video as a how to play. Some rules were explained wrong. For the most part it’s right, but keep in mind there are rules that were explained wrong.

    • @SaschaKleiber
      @SaschaKleiber Год назад +11

      Wow, that comment doesn't help at all. Maybe you should also mention WHICH rules?

    • @meganlove5681
      @meganlove5681 Год назад +3

      @@SaschaKleiber many people in the comments already listed them.

    • @FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb
      @FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb Год назад +7

      ​@@SaschaKleiberwarning people is more than enough, she has no obligation to correct a 40 minutes teach in the comments 😂

  • @mrdarlok
    @mrdarlok Год назад

    Forza Italia!

  • @Fatkitty1
    @Fatkitty1 Год назад

    Can you guys turn down the volume of your promotions and intro. It is so loud

  • @dextardextar
    @dextardextar 11 месяцев назад

    lincoln cheated like 4 times

  • @aaronmoore54
    @aaronmoore54 Год назад

    Deleted comment, as my “rule correction” was incorrect.

    • @papav3r
      @papav3r Год назад +1

      That's not true, kiosks score one money per building around it, except unflipped enclosures.

    • @SaschaKleiber
      @SaschaKleiber Год назад +1

      Not true. Each occupied standard building, unoccupied or occupied special building and pavillon counts. It doesn't have to be unique.

    • @aaronmoore54
      @aaronmoore54 Год назад +2

      @@papav3r You are right, I read the rules as “unique building” and then a list of the buildings, not connecting in my brain that unique buildings are the actual “unique buildings”. I’ve been handicapping myself! Thanks for the correction.

    • @MerlinsManor
      @MerlinsManor Год назад +1

      Wait we have been playing that the buildings need to be unique as well, so if there were 2 2-hex enclosures next to a kiosk you would only get 1 money. What is the word unique in the rules there then?

    • @aaronmoore54
      @aaronmoore54 Год назад +1

      @@MerlinsManor It’s for those colored tiles that are not animal enclosures, like the aquarium or playground; they are so named in the components’ section of the rule book.
      I personally would not have started off that part of the rules with “kiosks score for every unique building…”, as it could lead to a confusion like we encountered. As well, I would italicize or bold each component keyword so that it triggers the reader to know we are talking about a specific piece in the game. But, I have ADHD, so reading things as they are meant to be read gets lost with me sometimes.

  • @madameclark3453
    @madameclark3453 Год назад

    Looks too complicated for me. Skip