If you want a beautiful example of space Nazis. Mobile Suit Gundam likely did it the best with the Zeon faction. They're basically a mix of Space Marxist, and Space Nazis. Fighting for the Freedom of the Spacenoids over what they call the privilaged Earth elites. A lot of similar slogans that would find themselves right at home in a Marxist or Nazi society also come into play. With Earth Elites replacing the Bousquise, with some Zeon groups taking it to a racial place like Gihren Zabi from the original 1979 TV series, and later Haman Khan during the 1986 Double Zeta TV series. Context of racism has more to do with whether you're an Earthnoids, or Spacenoid in the universe. There is also a lot of spiritualism put into it, with the Newtypes theory by the founder of Zeon, Zeon Zum Deikun sounding very similar to Trotsky's New Soviet Man Theory.
The similarities to the Nazis are purely aesthetic, though. Zeon was actually intended by Yoshiyuki Tomino to be a subtle allusion to Imperial Japan. The way they "liberated" other colonies from Federation control was similar to how Imperial Japan "liberated" countries in southeast Asia and the Pacific islands from Western colonialism. They even reference the "Pan-Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere", the power bloc Imperial Japan was setting out to create by conquering their neighbors, in Gundam Unicorn when Full-Frontal voices his Neo-Zeon faction's intentions to establish a "Side Co-Prosperity Sphere" among the colonies. There's also the fact that the second-to-last major battle of the One-Year War took place at an asteroid base named "Solomon", which is likely a reference to the Solomon Islands where a major US military campaign was waged against Imperial Japanese forces occupying the islands from 1942 to 1943.
@NexAngelus405 Zeons were meant to represent a lot. It Is an amalgamation of things but not one set inspiration. I remember one interview the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts inspired the space immigrant/refugee part of the franchise.
Are you at all familiar with the 1990 film The Fourth War? Aside from being an entertaining movie, I think it might be right up your alley in the context of the channel.
When you made your extended reference to "Flash Gordon," it occurred to me that the original movie serial was produced in 1936; shortly before the Nazi 'Archetype' became a developed, go-to staple in Western fiction. Though the Mongo of Ming the Merciless drew from the crude "Yellow Peril" stereotype of the era, the basic milieu was drawn from the dynamic of Oriental Despotism that would be described in detail by Karl August Wittfogel in his famous text on the subject, published some two decades later in 1957. I don't know if Alex Raymond had this in mind when he first drew his blend of Science Fiction and Ruritanian Fantasy in 1934, but it seems so in hindsight. More likely, Mr. Raymond was basing Mongo on Earth's Asian Empires for an actual historical model to use in his World Building. (Alex Toth did something similar in "Space Angel" when he created his "Anthenians;" an extraterrestrial Big Bad Empire based heavily on Ancient Greece - especially Sparta - and the Roman Empire - but with sci-fi tech.) As always, thanks for the interesting analysis! 225th Like.
As for the libertarians carrying blasters openly, such depictions happen on the frontier worlds, I don't recall someone carrying on Coruscant. If you include the Clone Wars tv show which by the way is packed full of retcons, I'm sure the senators obtained permits for their weapons. The vastness and lawlessness of the Star Wars universe is emphasized in the Tarkin doctrine, realizing even the Empire can't enforce its rule on every system, hence the open carry beyond the galactic core.
Maybe it is more of an aesthetic thing, people tend to "dress up" more on Coruscant/the core and dress down/more utilitarian on the outer worlds, that a holstered pistol is less visible in those environments, but there are plenty of scenes in the prequels where people draw weapons, whether guns or some kind of sword / spear, and the residents don't go running or freak out, so it does seem at least legally things are just as permissive, at least in public areas.
@@Laotzu.Goldbug Zam Wessel drawing a blaster in the outlander club didn't really qualify as a shootout; Kenobi neutralized the threat before the bounty hunter could even fire, most probably didn't even register what really happened. Otherwise, what other core worlds do we see in the prequels, the only blaster wielding humans we see on Naboo are security personnel. Bear in mind this is good fun, let us be civil in our discussions.
One thing I've always wanted to see, or do if I ever had the time and energy, is a critique on how pop culture depictions of Nazis, or fascists in a more diffuse sense. Because I think there's been an issue where that kind of movement is depicted in such a cartoonishly evil way, that we're unable to recognize it when it appears in a contemporary context because of how fascism always likes to play the optics game to divert their image around the more omnipresent signifiers of that movement historically; or rather they portray themselves as the 'good guys' where any morally questionable actions are justified by a perception of being under attack. After all the Nazis are only evil to us with the benefit of hindsight, fact is in the 1930s both within and outside of Germany they were looked at with some amount of sympathy by those who some may consider 'moderate' conservatives--not all of course to be clear. Hell even the communists would downplay their threat compared to 'western imperialism' or whatever at times, literally blaming the British and French of starting WW2 right up until Barbarossa began. Even Canada's Liberal Prime Minister spoke somewhat favorably of Hitler at the time. Whether a sincere expression of opinion or just some rhetorical political maneuvering strategy thing is besides the point. Regardless of motivation all these examples are nonetheless a reflection of the state of the collective conscious at that time. Well that ended up being a lot longer than I thought it would.
I seem to recall that prior to WWII, popular choices for big bad guys were Russians, Germans but in the Iron Cross/following Kaiser style (we're still pissed about The Great War!), and the Chinese (Yellow Peril variation). You also had ancient Rome, a respectable republic that fell into corruption and depravity, maybe hitting its nadir when they killed Jesus, and maybe ancient Egypt, where the pharaohs built great monuments to themselves on the backs of countless slaves.
5:06 Grand Admiral Grand Tarkin looks badass as a Imperial Confederate. Though it is kinda weird also since the Confederacy was a rebellion. Anyway, LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!
2:09 intentional or not, I think there is a great aesthetic similarity between this icon and the _sonnenrad_ at Wewelsburg (the thematic connection being obvious) more than the swasstika.
you could also watch Iron Sky which has literal Moon nazis, as in 'I did nazi that happening' Its like the love child of European arms length love of American pop culture and Mel Brooks: with a post modern art rock band providing the soundtrack.
Ironically the Empire being said to be evil yet having a stable, economically viable society thats free enough that you can just hop on a ship and travel anywhere you want with a pistol on your hip the whole time makes it very interesting. Especially as a contrast to our modern "free" world.
that's because most star wars plot usually take place on fringe planets where the empire's authority is weak and spread thin which makes it convenient stage for the plot to take place in. people really read too much into star wars. its just a mish mash of the american mindset of the 20th century. a space jesus chosen one character, a space cowboy character and a princess leading an anti authoritarian rebellion is just a simplified, fairy tale style way of the great american mythos where freedom and justice must reign supreme over evil authoritarianism and dark mysticism.
The Empire in H Beam Pipers terro-human future history stories use a stylized sun and cogwheel symbol to represent the government. There are those that feel his Little Fuzzy novels inspired the Ewoks, while I think the SW Imperial symbol was inspired by Pipers description of his own empire.
@@feralhistorian Okay. Just out of curiosity, what's your opinion on the Newspeak, Life is Lived for Struggle, Hatred of Education, Doublethink, and Contempt for those Beneath You points of Fascism?
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 Sounds like Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism. Generally speaking, I don't think it's helpful in any kind of historical or academic sense, it's too vague and applicable to any dogmatic authoritarian ideology. Eco's definition can be (and often is) selectively used to depict almost anything as "fascism" That said, fascism (like Marxism, classical liberalism, "Wokeism" and almost everything else) has its particular set of key terms, anathema ideas, and objects of contempt; and the specifics are important to understanding that given ideology. For fascism, I think it's mostly about the national myth that they cling to (can be racial or cultural) a specifically non-Marxist socialist economic system that has ostensibly private industry that's actually run by members of the ruling Party, and a strong focus on authoritarian command structures in all spheres of life. Of course a proper answer would be a long essay, this is extremely abbreviated. Short answer, Eco is worth reading but he's a start, not the end.
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 I did a long video about what fascism looks like in practice (as opposed to the theory) using the Empire as a reference, if you're interested. ruclips.net/video/cyjw2riat80/видео.html
How come no Space Communists? What would Star Wars look like if the Evil Empire was Communist? Imagine Palpatine talking like Lenin. Imagine Storm Troopers calling each other comrade! And Darth Vader is just there to fight the Evil Capitalist Trade Federation!
The sith are pretty obviously the SS, and darth vader is himmler. But the sith started out as a heretical sect of the jedi, just like how the SS and their predecessor, the thule society, originated as a masonic lodge... huh.
It may be tangential but I remember watching a programme about contemporary Japan recently where it was mentioned that the Nazi Swastika and other Nazi symbols were looked upon as harmless and ''trendy'' by the youth. The older generation didn't seem to care either. Obviously one might say that Japan had a somewhat different view to WW2 than those in the West but it is more a case of ignorance. They did not suffer under the Nazis, Nazi symbology never entered their arena as it did ours. I found their acceptance of these symbols incredible but, on reflection, quite understandable.
Oh boy, 0:15 listening to this November 16th 2024. I don’t know man. I don’t think it’s recognizable anymore by the general population. Or at least specifically in the US of A. 😅
5:23 True that, guess society remembers the look only, yet not the substance that Fascism was. It’s a pity because books, history books, documentaries, stories just like these that actually try to show what it was like, not just the image, is if anything, in my opinion how I came to recognize it. But that’s called education. Not saying people are stupid. No, definitely not that. But ignorant…yes. Hearing echoes of a quote from Battlestar Galactica in my head… Interesting.
The bad guys in Star Wars (like most characters) were English because the movies were filmed in England. I generally like your videos but, seriously, do your diligence next time.
Then why don't the rebels also have English accents, most of them just have regular American accents. The Empire took it's aesthetics from the Nazis but the imperial officers are clearly inspired by British officers and aristocrats.
I'd add Hollywood has a long history of casting Brits as villains. It's ingrained in American culture plus an English actor tends to be more theatrical which helps in providi ng some villainous flair
@@RCC1553most of the rebel actors were British, but got US voice overs. Actually, the rebel victory celebration was based on Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will.
i so hope you can analyze Helldivers 1 and 2. I hope you check the lore out, i want to see your thoughts.
I'm just now looking into the Helldivers lore. The idea of "managed democracy" alone makes me want to dig into this one.
I didn’t new I needed this in my life… until now
If you want a beautiful example of space Nazis. Mobile Suit Gundam likely did it the best with the Zeon faction. They're basically a mix of Space Marxist, and Space Nazis. Fighting for the Freedom of the Spacenoids over what they call the privilaged Earth elites. A lot of similar slogans that would find themselves right at home in a Marxist or Nazi society also come into play. With Earth Elites replacing the Bousquise, with some Zeon groups taking it to a racial place like Gihren Zabi from the original 1979 TV series, and later Haman Khan during the 1986 Double Zeta TV series. Context of racism has more to do with whether you're an Earthnoids, or Spacenoid in the universe. There is also a lot of spiritualism put into it, with the Newtypes theory by the founder of Zeon, Zeon Zum Deikun sounding very similar to Trotsky's New Soviet Man Theory.
The very idea and existence of Newtype only proves Zeon right. Gihren did nothing wrong. Earth was an oppressive parasite who controls humanity.
And Hathaways flash explores the federation after multiple wars and its current crushing of its own people… I love gundam
The similarities to the Nazis are purely aesthetic, though. Zeon was actually intended by Yoshiyuki Tomino to be a subtle allusion to Imperial Japan. The way they "liberated" other colonies from Federation control was similar to how Imperial Japan "liberated" countries in southeast Asia and the Pacific islands from Western colonialism.
They even reference the "Pan-Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere", the power bloc Imperial Japan was setting out to create by conquering their neighbors, in Gundam Unicorn when Full-Frontal voices his Neo-Zeon faction's intentions to establish a "Side Co-Prosperity Sphere" among the colonies.
There's also the fact that the second-to-last major battle of the One-Year War took place at an asteroid base named "Solomon", which is likely a reference to the Solomon Islands where a major US military campaign was waged against Imperial Japanese forces occupying the islands from 1942 to 1943.
@NexAngelus405 Zeons were meant to represent a lot. It Is an amalgamation of things but not one set inspiration. I remember one interview the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts inspired the space immigrant/refugee part of the franchise.
Are you at all familiar with the 1990 film The Fourth War? Aside from being an entertaining movie, I think it might be right up your alley in the context of the channel.
When you made your extended reference to "Flash Gordon," it occurred to me that the original movie serial was produced in 1936; shortly before the Nazi 'Archetype' became a developed, go-to staple in Western fiction. Though the Mongo of Ming the Merciless drew from the crude "Yellow Peril" stereotype of the era, the basic milieu was drawn from the dynamic of Oriental Despotism that would be described in detail by Karl August Wittfogel in his famous text on the subject, published some two decades later in 1957.
I don't know if Alex Raymond had this in mind when he first drew his blend of Science Fiction and Ruritanian Fantasy in 1934, but it seems so in hindsight. More likely, Mr. Raymond was basing Mongo on Earth's Asian Empires for an actual historical model to use in his World Building. (Alex Toth did something similar in "Space Angel" when he created his "Anthenians;" an extraterrestrial Big Bad Empire based heavily on Ancient Greece - especially Sparta - and the Roman Empire - but with sci-fi tech.)
As always, thanks for the interesting analysis!
225th Like.
As for the libertarians carrying blasters openly, such depictions happen on the frontier worlds, I don't recall someone carrying on Coruscant. If you include the Clone Wars tv show which by the way is packed full of retcons, I'm sure the senators obtained permits for their weapons. The vastness and lawlessness of the Star Wars universe is emphasized in the Tarkin doctrine, realizing even the Empire can't enforce its rule on every system, hence the open carry beyond the galactic core.
Maybe it is more of an aesthetic thing, people tend to "dress up" more on Coruscant/the core and dress down/more utilitarian on the outer worlds, that a holstered pistol is less visible in those environments, but there are plenty of scenes in the prequels where people draw weapons, whether guns or some kind of sword / spear, and the residents don't go running or freak out, so it does seem at least legally things are just as permissive, at least in public areas.
@@Laotzu.Goldbug Zam Wessel drawing a blaster in the outlander club didn't really qualify as a shootout; Kenobi neutralized the threat before the bounty hunter could even fire, most probably didn't even register what really happened. Otherwise, what other core worlds do we see in the prequels, the only blaster wielding humans we see on Naboo are security personnel.
Bear in mind this is good fun, let us be civil in our discussions.
"Mao is like an evil version trash heap from Fraggle Rock" ..... Yep, that's about the best description I've heard.
One thing I've always wanted to see, or do if I ever had the time and energy, is a critique on how pop culture depictions of Nazis, or fascists in a more diffuse sense. Because I think there's been an issue where that kind of movement is depicted in such a cartoonishly evil way, that we're unable to recognize it when it appears in a contemporary context because of how fascism always likes to play the optics game to divert their image around the more omnipresent signifiers of that movement historically; or rather they portray themselves as the 'good guys' where any morally questionable actions are justified by a perception of being under attack.
After all the Nazis are only evil to us with the benefit of hindsight, fact is in the 1930s both within and outside of Germany they were looked at with some amount of sympathy by those who some may consider 'moderate' conservatives--not all of course to be clear. Hell even the communists would downplay their threat compared to 'western imperialism' or whatever at times, literally blaming the British and French of starting WW2 right up until Barbarossa began. Even Canada's Liberal Prime Minister spoke somewhat favorably of Hitler at the time. Whether a sincere expression of opinion or just some rhetorical political maneuvering strategy thing is besides the point. Regardless of motivation all these examples are nonetheless a reflection of the state of the collective conscious at that time.
Well that ended up being a lot longer than I thought it would.
I seem to recall that prior to WWII, popular choices for big bad guys were Russians, Germans but in the Iron Cross/following Kaiser style (we're still pissed about The Great War!), and the Chinese (Yellow Peril variation). You also had ancient Rome, a respectable republic that fell into corruption and depravity, maybe hitting its nadir when they killed Jesus, and maybe ancient Egypt, where the pharaohs built great monuments to themselves on the backs of countless slaves.
It was the yoos who killed Jesus. Rome wanted nothing of it until the Pharisees promised to riot throughout the empire if Jesus wasn't captured.
Don't forget Napoleon. Especially in a non-usa anglosphere context. Napoleon was Britain's Hitler for over a century.
I found the New Order version of the Imperial emblem to be very much like a panopticon design.
Zeon from mobile suit gundam. They were space yatzees too.
I'd argue that the Nazis themselves were pulling from a broader iconography that would still be present.
99% of history. If you took any person from the far past and told them modern day is the most free and progressive era, they would take up arms.
5:06 Grand Admiral Grand Tarkin looks badass as a Imperial Confederate. Though it is kinda weird also since the Confederacy was a rebellion.
Anyway, LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!
2:09 intentional or not, I think there is a great aesthetic similarity between this icon and the _sonnenrad_ at Wewelsburg (the thematic connection being obvious) more than the swasstika.
you could also watch Iron Sky which has literal Moon nazis, as in 'I did nazi that happening' Its like the love child of European arms length love of American pop culture and Mel Brooks: with a post modern art rock band providing the soundtrack.
You failed to mention 'Iron Sky'. Perhaps you would like to do a video discussing this film in its own right.
Iron Sky is more a spoof of the concept so I left it out here, but I've been meaning to cover it for a long time now.
I press Z but nothing happens
Ironically the Empire being said to be evil yet having a stable, economically viable society thats free enough that you can just hop on a ship and travel anywhere you want with a pistol on your hip the whole time makes it very interesting. Especially as a contrast to our modern "free" world.
that's because most star wars plot usually take place on fringe planets where the empire's authority is weak and spread thin which makes it convenient stage for the plot to take place in.
people really read too much into star wars. its just a mish mash of the american mindset of the 20th century. a space jesus chosen one character, a space cowboy character and a princess leading an anti authoritarian rebellion is just a simplified, fairy tale style way of the great american mythos where freedom and justice must reign supreme over evil authoritarianism and dark mysticism.
I am looking for the replacement big bad to be those banker demographics.
The Empire in H Beam Pipers terro-human future history stories use a stylized sun and cogwheel symbol to represent the government. There are those that feel his Little Fuzzy novels inspired the Ewoks, while I think the SW Imperial symbol was inspired by Pipers description of his own empire.
So does this mean that Zack Snyder should or should not be allowed to make more space movies?
I'm wondering what you think of the Daleks of Doctor Who, and the Zeons of Gundam.
I still haven't watched enough Gundam to have a coherent take on Zeon, but the Daleks . . . I think we'll get to that sooner or later.
@@feralhistorian Okay. Just out of curiosity, what's your opinion on the Newspeak, Life is Lived for Struggle, Hatred of Education, Doublethink, and Contempt for those Beneath You points of Fascism?
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 Sounds like Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism. Generally speaking, I don't think it's helpful in any kind of historical or academic sense, it's too vague and applicable to any dogmatic authoritarian ideology. Eco's definition can be (and often is) selectively used to depict almost anything as "fascism"
That said, fascism (like Marxism, classical liberalism, "Wokeism" and almost everything else) has its particular set of key terms, anathema ideas, and objects of contempt; and the specifics are important to understanding that given ideology. For fascism, I think it's mostly about the national myth that they cling to (can be racial or cultural) a specifically non-Marxist socialist economic system that has ostensibly private industry that's actually run by members of the ruling Party, and a strong focus on authoritarian command structures in all spheres of life.
Of course a proper answer would be a long essay, this is extremely abbreviated. Short answer, Eco is worth reading but he's a start, not the end.
@@feralhistorian Okay, thank you.
@@AhsokaFanboy1138 I did a long video about what fascism looks like in practice (as opposed to the theory) using the Empire as a reference, if you're interested. ruclips.net/video/cyjw2riat80/видео.html
I guffawed at picturing Mao as the Trash from the Fraggles.
How come no Space Communists? What would Star Wars look like if the Evil Empire was Communist? Imagine Palpatine talking like Lenin. Imagine Storm Troopers calling each other comrade! And Darth Vader is just there to fight the Evil Capitalist Trade Federation!
GLORY TO THE EMPIRE!
Early Feral Historian.
The sith are pretty obviously the SS, and darth vader is himmler. But the sith started out as a heretical sect of the jedi, just like how the SS and their predecessor, the thule society, originated as a masonic lodge... huh.
Ngl, They had drip.
It may be tangential but I remember watching a programme about contemporary Japan recently where it was mentioned that the Nazi Swastika and other Nazi symbols were looked upon as harmless and ''trendy'' by the youth. The older generation didn't seem to care either. Obviously one might say that Japan had a somewhat different view to WW2 than those in the West but it is more a case of ignorance. They did not suffer under the Nazis, Nazi symbology never entered their arena as it did ours. I found their acceptance of these symbols incredible but, on reflection, quite understandable.
Oh boy, 0:15 listening to this November 16th 2024. I don’t know man. I don’t think it’s recognizable anymore by the general population. Or at least specifically in the US of A. 😅
5:23 True that, guess society remembers the look only, yet not the substance that Fascism was.
It’s a pity because books, history books, documentaries, stories just like these that actually try to show what it was like, not just the image, is if anything, in my opinion how I came to recognize it.
But that’s called education. Not saying people are stupid. No, definitely not that. But ignorant…yes.
Hearing echoes of a quote from Battlestar Galactica in my head… Interesting.
Mind, I am adding comments as I watch the video.
You sir… Nailed it thank you 😊
Z
Z
Z
Am I a grad student yet?
The bad guys in Star Wars (like most characters) were English because the movies were filmed in England. I generally like your videos but, seriously, do your diligence next time.
Then why don't the rebels also have English accents, most of them just have regular American accents. The Empire took it's aesthetics from the Nazis but the imperial officers are clearly inspired by British officers and aristocrats.
I'd add Hollywood has a long history of casting Brits as villains. It's ingrained in American culture plus an English actor tends to be more theatrical which helps in providi ng some villainous flair
@@RCC1553most of the rebel actors were British, but got US voice overs. Actually, the rebel victory celebration was based on Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will.