Debate: Can A True Christian Lose Their Salvation?
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- Опубликовано: 13 окт 2022
- Daniel Constantino debates Lucas Curcio on Perseverance of The Saints. Daniel is a Deacon from Apologia Church and represents a Calvinist view while Lucas represents an Arminian view. Watch as they debate this age old question: Can a True Christian Lose Their Salvation?
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Развлечения
Debate starts at 8:05
This right here is Gold. Need to do more of these.
Watch our own deacon Daniel Constantino debate an Arminian on whether or not you can lose your salvation.
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It's a blessing simply to have these debates. Thanks!
A person can never lose their salvation. The question is, are they saved in the first place? If you follow a simple train of logic, the answer is easy - and it could mean the difference between heaven and hell for you!
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will enter heaven, but only those who do His will. What is the will of God? That you must be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16). Therefore, 'once saved, always saved' is true - if indeed a person is born of the Holy Spirit! It is pure logic:
1) A child of God loves God (I John 4.7)
2) Love never fails (I Cor 13.8)
3) Therefore, if love 'fails,' it was never love in the first place and if a person does not love God, they were never saved.
Hence, if you do not have the Holy Spirit, if you do not have those rivers of living water, you are not saved. Christ died on a Cross so that we can know Him. Christianity is relational. "This is eternal life, that you know God..." Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
A person can by backsliding
Brilliant work Daniel!
You don't have to be a Calvinist to think you cannot lose your salvation.
No. But seeing as the debater defending the position is a Calvinist, it makes sense that he should debate the position as a Calvinist.
I agree Matt, but also calvinism is more consistent view than the baptist view in my opinion, however it could just have easily been a baptist debating.
Calvin would never have called it Calvinism. It is the doctrine of Grace, if you belive in it you believe the same as Calvinists.
@@ScabbyP Can you explain what you mean by the doctrine of grace?
Amen I'm not a calvanist but being able to loose your salvation doesn't make senses when you read scripture even as a babe in Christ. The entire Bible is about God choosing us. He chose to create Adam and Eve, chose to save Noah, chose Abraham, chose Joseph, chose Moses, chose the disciples, and now we choose not God. It doesn't make sense.
THIS IS SOOO GOOD! So glad I watched it because I've always needed more explanation on someone losing their salvation.
Me too
No one, and the Bible teaches that no one can lose their salvation! What does happen, and happens a lot, is that many claim to be saved but were/ are not saved, because they never trusted in Jesus Christ for their salvation. They were never saved to begin with. Our salvation belongs to God and He owns and imparts this as He wills to all His sheep and not the goats.
Once a person is born of God, born of the Spirit, born again, born anew they are and remain children of God. A person cannot be unborn of God for God is NOT in the spiritual abortion business for that would go against His nature and will.
@@mauriceharting5877 If you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and go murder and rape someone... You are still saved... OSAS is TRUTH. WE ARE SEALED BY THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE... Amen
@@mauriceharting5877 Also Im not reccomending sin, But nothing can seperate you from Christ if you simply Believe on him
@@uselessheartinbox1711 And believing on Him is also a gift from God since faith is a gift from God imparted by the Holy Spirit. No one can boast of having made the right choice for all of salvation is a undeserved, and gracious gift from God to His sheep.
Great discussion 💕
A person can never lose their salvation. The question is, are they saved in the first place? If you follow a simple train of logic, the answer is easy - and it could mean the difference between heaven and hell for you!
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will enter heaven, but only those who do His will. What is the will of God? That you must be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16). Therefore, 'once saved, always saved' is true - if indeed a person is born of the Holy Spirit! It is pure logic:
1) A child of God loves God (I John 4.7)
2) Love never fails (I Cor 13.8)
3) Therefore, if love 'fails,' it was never love in the first place and if a person does not love God, they were never saved.
Hence, if you do not have the Holy Spirit, if you do not have those rivers of living water, you are not saved. Christ died on a Cross so that we can know Him. Christianity is relational. "This is eternal life, that you know God..." Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
Props on Lucas during the cross examination part of the debate and might I add his beard and hair cut is on point.
Thank you Daniel!! This is the first time seeing you debate. You did a phenomenal job. My faith has been strengthened.
Ephesians 2:8-9- 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and 1this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, so that no one may boast
Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before bthe foundation of the world, that we would be choly and blameless before 1Him in love, 5 by apredestining us to badoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, caccording to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He graciously bestowed on us in the Beloved
The reality is revealed in scripture. We all have fallen short of the Glory of God, and thus have all sinned and are dead in treaspasses and sins. It is gracious of our God to choose some to adoption as sons in Christ, for His Glory, and love for His elect while showing reprobation to others
1 John 5:4:
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
A newborn Christian can no longer return in the state of not being born again.
The Bible never mentions such a situation.
Especially since this action happens sovereignly from God's side without our will playing a role in it.
KJV+ King James Version
John 1:12-13:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
love this discussion!! Keep it coming!
Great job, Lucas.
I got saved in my 20's feel away fast into the world, never did what i did after i got saved, a few years passed and 4 children later sitting on my sins and not contemplating God in my life, God called me back! And i have had the best experienced leading and having the strongest hunter to find truth and God has been so merciful to me, to show me his wonderful word and to keep me in his ways like he had promise when i got saved, do according to my life "you can not lose your salvation, because the work that Jesus did for us was not in vain, and he will never lose you doesn't matter how hard you try not to be found. Be humble and repent life is for and Jesus will raised us eventuality. Love take care be faithful to your savior/creator
Those who God loves He rebukes/disciplines them
I think He is trying to bring me back now as well He already has in the sense of wanting him and being serious more than ever about Him but there is a lot I still dont understand and struggle with sin and doctrine issues its very hard
Great debate! Both sides of the coin was presented here. They both agree salvation is by faith, faith is obtained by grace it’s a gift. Faith is maintained by grace-the power of God! Daniel explained this perfectly!
Lucas would differ on the issue of God's maintaining our faith by grace though. The crumbling of his argument came in the end when he admitted that the difference between him and those who fall away is his exercising continued faith on his own.
@@Stanzi18 true! And that’s the problem.
calvinist do not believe in freewill choice to pick God.
1 John 5:4:
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
A newborn Christian can no longer return in the state of not being born again.
The Bible never mentions such a situation.
Especially since this action happens sovereignly from God's side without our will playing a role in it.
KJV+ King James Version
John 1:12-13:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The last question from Daniel was the ultimate destruction of Lucas's view. "The only difference between you and the one in hell is that you persevered and they didn't?". He answered Yes. This contradicts Grace alone. It's not about you Lucas. Its not about what you do
But you are forgetting "Faith" alone.
@@bthayful The only reason you have faith is because of His grace
@@Richard-tu6qc who enabled you to persevere? Soli Deo Gloria.
By the Arminian logic, God does not enable anyone to persevere, it’s all on you. If you disagree, then you might argue God enables some to persevere and some He chooses not to enable. So now you’re arguing for limited atonement.
@@judgedredd31 god gives us free will. If it were true that once saved always saved was true. Then what would be the point in anything. Nothing I do will change wether I’m saved or not, but let’s say that I’m as close to perfect as can be. What is the point of everyone else. God just brought them here for nothing. They were never going to be saved no matter what they did in your view. They could find god, they could live a perfect life, but they wouldn’t be saved because they werent the chosen. That’s silly
This Daniel guy said that when God lays his hands on you he will finish his work this is true. However this is why he gave us freewill. God leaves it in our hands, God doesn’t force anyone into his kingdom.
God is the only author and finisher of salvation.
💯
@@jaythesilverwolf777 Amen, and thanks to Him we can with our free will choose to abandon Him, or keep His ways to the end and receive salvation as the reward there of. OSAS is the most dangerous doctrine PERIOD.
To " All who OBEY HIM"- Hebrews 5:9
@@emoure77 Amen brother!
2Sa 22:22 "For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God."
This verse and well most of the Bible would be irrelevant if OSAS were true.
@@savedwretch LOST
Well said, Daniel. Glory to God for wisdom and discernment.
Dude you have been indoctrinated. It is not God who fails us in salvation it is man who fails God and himself.
Daniel is lost. He follows the logic that God controls all. So I guess all the horrors of the world are forced by God almighty which is blasphemy. We have free will and he is using his own to lie. God will have harsh punishment for those who led others astray.
This Daniel guy said that when God lays his hands on you he will finish his work this is true. However this is why he gave us freewill. God leaves it in our hands, God doesn’t force anyone into his kingdom.
1 John 5:4:
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
A newborn Christian can no longer return in the state of not being born again.
The Bible never mentions such a situation.
Especially since this action happens sovereignly from God's side without our will playing a role in it.
KJV+ King James Version
John 1:12-13:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Blessings really good job Daniel.
Excellent debate. I enjoy when both sides bring solid arguments. I wish they had expounded on 2 Peter 2:1. I agree with election, but that is a passage I'll need to research more.
Two future debates I would like to see:
1) Premillennialism vs Postmillennialism. I'm leaning very much toward postmillennialism but would be interested in hearing a solid debate on both sides.
2) Not even referring to salvation, how much does God dictate on our everyday decisions and how much does He allow us to choose? I get uncertain of this as many times we tell people that "God brought them to this place". Did He dictate it or did He allow them to choose or do we really know how much God is dictating? That may be more a presentation than a debate, but I am curious on how to know those things or if we even can.
Check out debate between Paul Viggiano and Thomas Ice
Welcome to the big stage, Lucas! What a way to burst onto the scene, excellent presentation.
Brainwashing Christian rubes pays well!!!!!!!!
Lucas made a great example with marriage and divorce. Our relationship with Christ, is somewhat, barebones reminiscent of man taking a bride. Yes they get married, yet both are required to be faithful to each other, and we do see tragedy where one isn't faithful, yet the other still forgives and they renew their love and continue to live together, and the utter tragedy where they divorce and no longer live together in union of marriage. in Gods case, He remains faithful, unlike us, who are prone to stumbling, and yes in my beliefs leaving God for the world. We are beings of free will, that's what God wants from us, choosing Him and struggling to be faithful only to Him. As long as we live we WILL struggle, until we wither are laid to rest till day of judgement or caught up with him when He comes.
very hyped for this debate
A person can never lose their salvation. The question is, are they saved in the first place? If you follow a simple train of logic, the answer is easy - and it could mean the difference between heaven and hell for you!
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will enter heaven, but only those who do His will. What is the will of God? That you must be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16). Therefore, 'once saved, always saved' is true - if indeed a person is born of the Holy Spirit! It is pure logic:
1) A child of God loves God (I John 4.7)
2) Love never fails (I Cor 13.8)
3) Therefore, if love 'fails,' it was never love in the first place and if a person does not love God, they were never saved.
Hence, if you do not have the Holy Spirit, if you do not have those rivers of living water, you are not saved. Christ died on a Cross so that we can know Him. Christianity is relational. "This is eternal life, that you know God..." Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@kenshiloh If someone cannot lose their salvation, and it is merely they were never saved to begin with, then how do you have assurance you're saved right now?
@@ihiohoh2708 Great question: how do I know that I am saved?
I was raised by an atheist and, at 17, heard the gospel for the first time, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that Christ died for my sins. A short time later, I walked onto the lawn of a church one night and prayed my first prayer, "Is there Jesus? I would like to meet Him!" When I met Christ, all heaven filled my soul and it felt like my heart was made of gold. I walked away thinking, "That was heaven, but I am on earth. What is heaven doing on earth?"
What I am describing is salvation right out of the Bible. I met Christ. We are the best of friends. Once a person is born again (and only that person can know that they are saved), they 'dwell in the heavenlies' with Christ and the Holy Spirit bears witness that they are saved (Romans 8.16). In fact, since that night I met the Lord (about 46 years ago), I have not had even one second of doubt that I know the Lord and am bound for heaven.
I cannot urge you or caution you more to listen to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Referring to the Holy Spirit, He said, "Whoever believes in Me shall have rivers of living water bubbling up from inside." Do you know what Jesus is talking about? Have you been born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, Who is like 'rivers of living water bubbling up'?
This is the dividing line between heaven and hell. Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him.
Most 'Christians' will claim to know Christ, but only a few of them do. I hope that you will be careful how you hear! Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Everything I have shared is straight out of the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@ihiohoh27081 John 5:4:
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
A newborn Christian can no longer return in the state of not being born again.
The Bible never mentions such a situation.
Especially since this action happens sovereignly from God's side without our will playing a role in it.
KJV+ King James Version
John 1:12-13:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
That rebuttal though! Soli Deo Gloria!
Amen, we are secure!
The reformed church has done a good job at talking about what apostasy is in scripture. Those who are in Christ and are thrown into the fire are those who are members of the visible church, yet fall away without ever being granted spiritual faith.
What are they apostatizing from if they never believed?
I don’t believe that a good job. It is butchering the scripture to make it fit your theological presumption. The OSAS lie cuts out 1/2 of the Bible. The POTS doctrine that I believe is much more sound than OSAS still excludes over 85 scriptures. Where as conditional security is the teaching of the whole counsel of God!
“And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.” (Acts 2:40 KJV)
Yup yup!
Enjoyed the debate. Great opening statements. The cross examination could have gone much better.
I'm a reformed baptist, but I think Daniel struggled in the cross exam. Lucas was asking some good questions that needed to be addressed (specifically in Hebrews 10 and John 15) and it seemed like Daniel either didn't understand the arguments being made, or was trying to avoid answering. The questions were pretty clear and I didn't understand why Daniel wasn't answering what was being asked. Keep up the good work, though! Debating is tough work but necessary for the body.
Not going to say anything because you already read my thoughts. I totally agree with you on this. Lucas came on really strong at the beginning. Daniel didn't really provide strong answers or deflected them in some way. Maybe he didn't have enough facts to defend his stance which is totally fine. He should have welcomed the questions and said he didn't have the answers at the time.
I'm reformed as well. 🙂
Yes, his response regarding John 15 were especially evasive and weak. John 15 alone is devastating to his position.
I have plenty of video on this topic. Just check out my playlist titled OSAS. God bless!
@@chisomugwuegede9857 but did you have any answers for Lucas's questions? If not, why are you still reformed calvanist?
Can the name of born-again believers be blotted out of the book of life according to revelation 3:5? Please, anyone?
Great debate. Not sure I like the format of allowing one side to go first for the opening statements, and then also last for the closings.
Both of these guys did really well, awesome debate!
#TeamArminius 😎
I have many videos on my channel on the topic of OSAS. Check it out and God bless!
GREAT CAMERA WORK!
“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect such great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace”; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!”
~ John Wesley
It was great to meet you brother Daniel. Hope we stay in touch, if your reading this, give me a call or text. You have my business card from the conference 👍.
Bless you brother, keep up the good work.
Lucas came in really strong with hisnopening statement. Daniel also came in very strong. Lucas' presentation fell apart immediately after that unfortunately. Great debate.
Agreed! Lucas kicked things off at Mach speed. He made strong cases. Sadly his misinterpretation of Daniel's beliefs didn't help matters. Whenever Daniel stated his beliefs in defence, Lucas states that he already knows what Daniel believes. Clearly, he doesn't.
@ Matt Mannucci dude I'm @ the 1:14:08 hes driving me craving with the hypotheticals. His time is better spent strengthening his position.
Such a great debate. Daniel laid out everything I always wished other debaters would say.
Lies are something to encourage. Daniel is illogical and his statements are no better then a JW, Morgan, or Catholic who adds man made false doctrine to God's word.
This is excellent.
Jeff,
Will you do a segment on Apologia Radio with your answer to the statement he makes in the in reference to John 6:40, something along the lines of it is Gods will for conditional salvation? I think Brother Daniel did great, I would just love to hear y’all talk about it on your radio program. Thanks! God bless y’all over there. Praying for y’all!
An easy win for Lucas. May Daniel continue to grow in debate. Sincerely, a historically reformed believer and holder to Perseverance of the saints
Cross-ex is where the rubber meets the road and I honestly think Lucas got the upper hand, here. Just an unbiased watch of what took place during this period would clearly demonstrate this. I'm a reformed believer who loves and treasures the doctrines of grace.
@@heartofalegend agreed
@@heartofalegend I am encouraged that we have some new young believers debating
Faith + works = 👎🏼
What comfort to know that God receives all glory for our faith, justification, and salvation. He is the one who gives the gift of faith, lest any man boast, therefore I cannot give credit to myself for perseverance of faith. What comfort to trust our God and Savior to the utmost!
Gordon, if faith is given by God, how come there's so many faiths in the Christian world that contradict each other? Why would God give someone the pentecostal faith and another one the Lutheran faith, so that they can bicker about their differences?
@@luke31ish Ephesians 2:8 : For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, and not of works lest any man boast. I am just quoting what God says. Obviously there are errors in the churches ( read Revelation, Jesus’s letter to the churches) but we must always study the scriptures to let scripture interpret itself. I don’t care to add further commentary but only to share that God receives all glory for it all! The humble he will lift up, but the proud he will pay back in full (Psalm 31).
@@gordonbrethauer1235 Also Paul says in a different verse that faith comes by hearing. The verse that you mentioned can be interpreted that grace is the gift not faith, which makes more sense. When Abraham is considered righteous by faith, is that his faith or God's faith? And you still didn't address the different faiths that exists, which are incompatible with each other.
Lucas fails to recognize the biblical evidence showing WHERE faith comes from. Dead is dead, completely incapable of life.
I was concieved and born in sin. I was once dead in my sins and trespasses. "But God"... oh those sweet sweet words. Being rich in mercy and abounding love, that while I was yet a sinner and dead...gave me life. God choose me, God sought me, God did it all. After all, the best I have to offer is as filthy rags. I bring NOTHING to my salvation, I can bring NOTHING. I do not serve an impotent god who needs me to contribute to my salvation. My God is almighty to save and I live for him alone.
I enjoyed this. Thank you brothers!
I will like to see a debate between the prewrath position and preterism that will be gold
Saving to watch later. Hopefully it stays up so I can catch it this weekend
A person can never lose their salvation. The question is, are they saved in the first place? If you follow a simple train of logic, the answer is easy - and it could mean the difference between heaven and hell for you!
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will enter heaven, but only those who do His will. What is the will of God? That you must be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16). Therefore, 'once saved, always saved' is true - if indeed a person is born of the Holy Spirit! It is pure logic:
1) A child of God loves God (I John 4.7)
2) Love never fails (I Cor 13.8)
3) Therefore, if love 'fails,' it was never love in the first place and if a person does not love God, they were never saved.
Hence, if you do not have the Holy Spirit, if you do not have those rivers of living water, you are not saved. Christ died on a Cross so that we can know Him. Christianity is relational. "This is eternal life, that you know God..." Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@kenshiloh Amen
@@kenshiloh did the brother who seduced his stepmother, 1 Cor. 5, while his father was still alive, 2 Cor. 7:12, lose his salvation after committing this heinous act? was he still saved while unrepentant? 2 Cor. 7:10
@@kenshiloh did king David lose his salvation after he committed adultery with Uriah's wife and later murdering him? we know David repented of his crimes. he was unrepentant for about a year or the duration of the life of the child conceived in the adulterous affair. 2 Sam. 12:15-23 this is the question for u: was David still saved while unrepentant?
@@enriquemoure2739 Hi. Apart from the apostles, the only person we can know is saved is ourselves - but only if the Holy Spirit bears witness that you are. Otherwise, it is presumption. Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
Daniel is so on point. Great job. 👏👏👏 Soli Deo Gloria.
A person can never lose their salvation. The question is, are they saved in the first place? If you follow a simple train of logic, the answer is easy - and it could mean the difference between heaven and hell for you!
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will enter heaven, but only those who do His will. What is the will of God? That you must be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16). Therefore, 'once saved, always saved' is true - if indeed a person is born of the Holy Spirit! It is pure logic:
1) A child of God loves God (I John 4.7)
2) Love never fails (I Cor 13.8)
3) Therefore, if love 'fails,' it was never love in the first place and if a person does not love God, they were never saved.
Hence, if you do not have the Holy Spirit, if you do not have those rivers of living water, you are not saved. Christ died on a Cross so that we can know Him. Christianity is relational. "This is eternal life, that you know God..." Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@kenshiloh
1Ti 1:18-20 "18 Timothy, my child, I am instructing you in keeping with the prophecies made earlier about you, so that by following them you may continue to fight the good fight 19 with faith and a good conscience. By ignoring their consciences, some people have destroyed their faith like a wrecked ship. 20 These include Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I handed over to Satan so that they may learn not to blaspheme."
NOTE, Hymenaeus and Alexander were Christians, they destroyed their own faith by sinning...., they fell away. You can lose your salvation!
@@savedwretch Hi. When did Paul ever say Hymenaeus and Alexander were saved? That is, they 'destroyed their faith,' but lots of people on their way to hell 'have faith' in God! Remember, not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' will make it to heaven, but only those who do the will of the Father. What is His will? That you believe on Christ. Yet, it is not the American version of 'belief,' but it is a personal relationship with God.
Moreover, Paul did not have the ability to tell if anyone was saved. That is, Paul was obedient to the Lord, Who said that we should not 'pull out the tares (i.e. fake Christians), lest you pull out the wheat (genuine Christians).' Again, these men wrecked their 'faith,' but I do not think you can establish that they were saved.
Yet, if you have no assurance of your salvation, how do you have any peace in your life? You must live in abject horror that you might wind up in hell. Where does the peace of God fit into that theology?
Also, you did not address my argument. The Bible says that you cannot be saved unless you love the Lord. Moreover, the Bible says that love never fails. That is, if 'love' fails, it was never love in the first place.
Does the Holy Spirit bear witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16)? If so, how could you live in fear and insecurity? You would be doubting the Holy Spirit, which is utterly sinful. May you have peace in Christ! Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@savedwretch you assume they were Christians it doesn’t say they were born again. Just because they held to the gospel for a time doesn’t mean they were regenerated it just means they mentally acquiesced to facts about Christ and then swerved from that truth.
@@Animosity-yj7um Does the Bible say anyone is born again?...or do assume it? ..and no, i didn't assume it. athat passage says Hymenaeus and Alexander destroyed their faith. So apparently you don't know what faith is. If the Bible/Jesus tells you "you have faith"...eg. the woman with the bleeding problem that touched Jesus' robe. Jesus turned around and told her "your faith healed you". What faith?...her faith in the cloth Jesus wore? Or her faith in Jesus Christ the Messiah, God in flesh?... ONLY this faith can heal.
Now if the Bible says someone lost/destroyed their faith,...bad news! Don't fight Scripture my friend....this is important. Is being hard-headed (like i was for decades) worth losing your soul?
I love how throughout the first cross examination Daniel would quote scripture verbatim and be told "I know what you believe, but...". He's quoting the actual text he is being questioned on. The response needs to be "I know what you believe because that's what scripture says."
Im a Calvinist and totally agree with Daniel here but I have a question Daniel kept on saying in his opening statements that Jesus cant pray to god and ask for something without god giving it to him, but in Luke 22:42 when Jesus is praying on mount olives he asks for the cup to to be removed from him but it didn't?
A great question in my opinion that would have been cool to hear the answer from would have been " And how does Jesus foresee their salvation in the future ".
Some auto-spell/grammar checkers don't work on the words: there, and their.
referring to your statement - "And how does Jesus foresee their salvation in the future."
…. because Jesus is God 😅 foreknowledge is one of God’s MANY attributes
@@erikalinden5608 that would suggest ( and follow me on this ) that God, looked through the hands of time and saw that the person would not accept his Son. So therefore, God did not choose to save that person on that basis. That means that salvation would still be up to man and not God. That is false.
@@richardcinco4663 God planned everything to happen. He planned to save some and to pass over others. All of us on the basis of our depravity should go to hell. But in His goodness and rich mercy, He planned to send His one and only Son to die for a certain amount of people. And that was of His choosing. So whenever the gospel is preached somewhere and to someone, if it is spoken to someone and they aren’t of the elect, whom God has chosen, then God passes over them. But if they are of the elect, the Holy Spirit then indwells them, and convicts them of their sin. The only thing that saves is hearing the gospel. It’s not a profession of belief or faith. Is it the Holy Spirits work that leads to a true faith and belief. One that cannot fade away.
@@richardcinco4663 well then where, in what you said, is one’s ability to respond at all…? i know we’re spiritually dead before Christ but the bible TELLS US to repent and believe….. that’s a choice we make before we’re saved or not… many have been shown or told the truth and they do not choose to repent and out their faith in Jesus.
i’m not a Calvinist, tho i agreed with most everything Daniel said… i still believe there’s room for us to respond to the gospel.
it could be one of those things where it’s completely paradoxical too (ie the Trinity)
We were given a commission: Matthew 16:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
This is what we should be focused on and practicing.
I think we focus too much on the "great commission" (which, side note, was given just to his disciples who were meant to be traveling missionaries and church starters) and not on the command of the man who was possessed by many demons (when he wanted to follow, Jesus sent him home and told him to tell them). Unless you are going to be a missionary, let us focus on those around us.
A person can never lose their salvation. The question is, are they saved in the first place? If you follow a simple train of logic, the answer is easy - and it could mean the difference between heaven and hell for you!
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will enter heaven, but only those who do His will. What is the will of God? That you must be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16). Therefore, 'once saved, always saved' is true - if indeed a person is born of the Holy Spirit! It is pure logic:
1) A child of God loves God (I John 4.7)
2) Love never fails (I Cor 13.8)
3) Therefore, if love 'fails,' it was never love in the first place and if a person does not love God, they were never saved.
Hence, if you do not have the Holy Spirit, if you do not have those rivers of living water, you are not saved. Christ died on a Cross so that we can know Him. Christianity is relational. "This is eternal life, that you know God..." Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@Ironica sharing the gospel with those around Us is part of the great commission, “make disciples of all the nations” we and those around us are part of all the nations.
these debates are gold❤ty apologia
Im going to share my testimony of getting saved...i was in the county church as a preacher was preaching when all of a sudden i started having something hitting my chest wondering what was going on..later i found out i was generated and later a few days i was approached by two christians who asked if i wanted to accept Christ...something again was going on in my mind at the time and i said yes...after that spiritual experiences started for me ..born again..like the eyes of Elisha's servant my eyes were opened as the salvation process of mine was done..so my experiences match Daniels teaching..❤
If salvation can be lost, Christianity becomes just like any other world religion which makes it a points-system.
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life"
@@privatecitizen4001 "Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:5)
Good debate I’m a Calvinist but Luke has presented good arguments very persuasive. But I’m still a Calvinist
A person can never lose their salvation. The question is, are they saved in the first place? If you follow a simple train of logic, the answer is easy - and it could mean the difference between heaven and hell for you!
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will enter heaven, but only those who do His will. What is the will of God? That you must be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16). Therefore, 'once saved, always saved' is true - if indeed a person is born of the Holy Spirit! It is pure logic:
1) A child of God loves God (I John 4.7)
2) Love never fails (I Cor 13.8)
3) Therefore, if love 'fails,' it was never love in the first place and if a person does not love God, they were never saved.
Hence, if you do not have the Holy Spirit, if you do not have those rivers of living water, you are not saved. Christ died on a Cross so that we can know Him. Christianity is relational. "This is eternal life, that you know God..." Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
Might want to do some research on John Calvin before you pledge your allegiance to such ungodliness even in light of his teaching being plainly refuted in front of you. One fact about Calvin is that he MURDERED Michael Servetus , had him burned alive with green wood to prolong his suffering, just for Michael's vehement disagreement with Calvin. Sound like a Holy Spirit filled theologian to pledge such allegiance to? I think not....look it up. " No murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15
@@emoure77 Hi. Frankly, I do not care if Calvin had been an axe murderer. I am only swayed, not by character of men, but by the Word of God, trusting the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me.
Yet, my concern is whether or not you are saved. Do you have assurance of your salvation? Remember, Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@kenshiloh salvation to a Calvinist means to be born predestined for heaven by an irreversible decree. EVERYTHING hangs right here! nothing else matters! Calvinists avoid this subject like the AIDS virus. the U of TULIP, unconditional election. they reject as proof of salvation an OBSERVABLE radical moral transformation from sinful to godly, described in Matt. 5:20; John 8:11, 34, 36; Rom. 6:14, 18, 22; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10; 4:24; Titus 2:11, 12, 14 etc. because elects and non elects are BOTH non stop sinners. Calvinists quote Rom. 7:15-19 to "prove" their point. so they conclude godly behavior can't be appeal to as proof of salvation. this is why Calvinists like Jeff use vulgarity, including the f.... word. no sin can cancel this sovereign irreversible decree. but Calvinism has a problem, ONCE this sanctifying experience, Acts 15:8, 9; Titus 3:5, is rejected as the criteria that determines who is saved, to what criteria do Calvinists appeal to? what assurance of salvation do they have? they mention verses about election, predestination, before the foundation of the world, the book of life, tares and wheat etc. etc. HOW DO THEY KNOW they belong to the lucky group? HOW DOES A CALVINIST KNOW he is an elect predestined for heaven? HOW DOES HE KNOW he is a wheat and not a tare if no human was present when this predestination occurred? HOW DO THEY KNOW?
Calvin wrote: “Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation...” (3.2.11, Institutes,)
when does an elect finds out he has the faith of an elect? he could be a non elect all his life repeating the same words an elect speaks. Judas Iscariot never found out. neither did Esau, according to Calvinists. Jeff's case or any other Calvinist for that matter could be similar to Judas and Esau.
"And when it was day, HE CALLED HIS DISCIPLES to Himself; and FROM THEM HE CHOSE twelve whom He also named apostles:" Luke 6:13
Calvinists claim Judas was always a devil. he was unconditionally elected before his birth as a non elect reprobate. BUT this has massive immoral implications! it implies the God of the Bible uses deception. here is why. Jesus deceived Judas into thinking he was a disciple when in reality he was not. (BTW the word disciple, (s) occurs over 200 times in the NT and almost always refers to believers) it also implies the Lord enhanced the deception by promoting a lost man, He Himself had predestined for hell, to the highest office in His church. this smears the pure character of the Lord Jesus for He did what He commands His servants not to do: place in a position of authority a lost person, Acts 14:23; 1 Tim. 3; Titus 1:5-9; 1 Pet. 5:1-5 thus making the Lord a sinner. this robs Him of the sinless quality required to satisfy God's justice, Rom. 3:24-26; 2 Cor. 5:21, negates the merit of His sacrifice thus ruining the plan of salvation.
CONCLUSION if a man who walked with God in the flesh, who himself performed miracles, even raising the dead, Matt. 10:1-8, and saw prodigies never seen before by human eyes, Matt. 13:17, was CALLED AND CHOSEN by God Himself, NEVER knew he was a lost reprobate, what assurance of salvation does a Calvinist have? he could be a non elect repeating the same words an elect speaks. how can he know for sure? remember Calvinists god misleads humans into thinking they are saved elects when in reality they are not! he led Judas to believe he was an elect disciple and a chosen apostle. Calvin's god hid from Judas the truth: that it was actually him who had predestined Judas to be born as a non elect reprobate before the foundation of the world.
HOW DO U KNOW YOUR GOD IS NOT DOING THE SAME TO U FOR HIS GLORY?
Pastor Karigan has / refuting calvinizm on RUclips
Excellent debate, both wonderful young apologist in the making. Lucas should slow down his speech a bit.
I keep hearing these words in this order being said; "Jesus said, this is the will of my father, that God has made salvation conditional.".
Lucas Curio’s hair 👍
A person can never lose their salvation. The question is, are they saved in the first place? If you follow a simple train of logic, the answer is easy - and it could mean the difference between heaven and hell for you!
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will enter heaven, but only those who do His will. What is the will of God? That you must be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16). Therefore, 'once saved, always saved' is true - if indeed a person is born of the Holy Spirit! It is pure logic:
1) A child of God loves God (I John 4.7)
2) Love never fails (I Cor 13.8)
3) Therefore, if love 'fails,' it was never love in the first place and if a person does not love God, they were never saved.
Hence, if you do not have the Holy Spirit, if you do not have those rivers of living water, you are not saved. Christ died on a Cross so that we can know Him. Christianity is relational. "This is eternal life, that you know God..." Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
Bro, Daniel's questions were 🔥
And his statements were fire 🔥 too. Especially to all those who believe his lies. Daniel will be punished by God for his false doctrine by God almighty. Especially for leading thousands to hell who believe they can live a life of sin like catholics because they believe God is controlling there every move and thought.
@@BigLazyMexican That's not what he believes and that's not even what Catholics believe. I think you are very confused.
This predestination doctrine is all bad. We have freewill. God will finish what he’s started in us but we have to be willing to walk the walk and live in faith. God will not force anybody into his kingdom. God doesn’t just pick people to be saved and others not. That’s what predestination is about. Jesus won’t turn his back on us but we can turn our backs on God.
...
Wat in the name of the living G-d are you struggling about?
This was a great debate. I thought Lucas was a better debater, but Daniel had a better argument.
It seemed like Lucas was more concerned with defeating Calvinism, than arriving at truth. Towards the end he even had to add to scripture I make his logic work.
Daniel held his ground despite appearing flustered by the bombardment by Lucas.
The arguments of Hebrews 6 and 10 were compelling, but not compelling when viewed in respect to the whole counsel of the Bible. The doctrines of Grace can only be disproven in the realm of hypotheticals. To deny one of them, would be to deny all.
I think all true Christian’s that hold to the Arminian position believe in total depravity and perseverance of the saints, but due to pride and lack of understanding, will deny these doctrines because of trouble with the other three points of Calvinism.
Love seeing a Latino brother preaching the word!
Is that Daniel?
@@deliadelgado3364 the Calvinist
Kudos to Daniel. I think we’re looking at an awesome debater in him. I’m sure he’d be great at other future debates if given the chance.
The Armenian clearly Won 🏆 this debate.
Hope you have him on more frequently! And to do more of these in general.
Arminian*
If that is what you consider 'won'.
@@ChristisLord2023 you didn't watch?
@@CatholicCarnivoreHousewife I absolutely did. The first moment I knew this was going to the calvinist side was when Daniel quoted scripture directly from the bible and the response was "I know what you believe but...".
@@ChristisLord2023 so you're saying that because he has familiarized himself with the Calvinist misinterpretation of Scripture, which came 1,503 years after Jesus walked the Earth and established Christianity & Ascended into Heaven, That's why you just dismiss him? Oh okay. That doesn't make any common sense, but okay.
All I can do is highly recommend for you to genuinely ask God in prayer to allow you to know the Truth of His authentic Christianity - what He personally gave His Life to establish - & to protect you so as not be tricked by anyone else's added traditions or misinterpretations, and then go back and re-listen to this debate.
I see a lot of people commenting similar things, but I'll add my voice and say that it's always been interesting to me that the warning passages in Scripture are (in an indirect way) one of the strongest biblical arguments that can be made for the reformed view of infant baptism. I say this as someone more on the baptist side of the debate.
Lucas had paragraphs of scriptures, Daniel is still talking about what he thinks glorifies God, when God says he wants obedience and guess what you are capable of obeying or disobeying. Submission and rebellion, regardless if you claim it glorifies God.
I want to see more from Daniel-He’s awesome!
Daniel literally couldn't answer any questions! False teacher
Daniel is very illogical. Brings up the marriage analogy, then drops it before he gets himself into trouble. But as all false teachers will say when cornered ITS A MYSTERY
@@BigLazyMexican the very scriptures call it a mystery..I guess Paul is a false teacher as well.....
@@BigLazyMexican there's nothing illogical about appealing to mystery Deuteronomy 29:29 is a mystery to us..
Free Will and pre destination is a mystery to us and yet they both exist. the only thing we can ponder is what things bear out in reality that we all share in this shared reality of ours. we have free will, we have predestination.. we can make choices but yet there are things that are that are beyond our control... free will doesn't mean a hundred percent autonomous. Mystery is not illogical,
Before Newton we couldn't understand gravity we didn't even know that there was a such concept same thing with Archimedes and water hydraulics.
The Assumption you're making by saying that "mystery is illogical" is "if I can't understand it it must not be real or true"... that just happens to be the same argument that people use to not believe in God... because the modern approach to scientific method is empiricism but I take it you already knew that and this is just a reminder.
Now on another note if I'm going to be fair here they both did the same thing that they accused each other of... in the crossfire section of the debate they both asked each other questions that assumed of their worldview.
.. it was still a good debate though
...
@@charlescameron2732 Paul wasn't right all the time IN THE BIBLE. And neither was Solomon, the man with the most wisdom ever.
Rom. 8:28 ¶ And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom. 8:29 Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers;
Rom. 8:30 and those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified; and those whom He justified, He also glorified.
Rom. 8:31 ¶ What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Rom. 8:32 He who indeed did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him graciously give us all things?
Rom. 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom. 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Rom. 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will affliction, or turmoil, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom. 8:36 Just as it is written,
“ FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE COUNTED AS SHEEP FOR the SLAUGHTER.”
Rom. 8:37 ¶ But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
Rom. 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom. 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I love Daniel cross examination because it backs up his calvinist points., the other guy doesn’t even argue it..
Lucas wants to make a point; a fear of addressing the other sides points may seem like a concession.
Great debate! I am personally is sad for the Arminian. It seems obvious that they have stretched the bible so much to support their view😢.
The Arminian would say the same of the Calvinist.
It's non sensical to warn believers who cannot lose salvation of falling away just as it it to warn those who have literally no hope of salvation to begin with.
It's like 2 immortals in a sword fight.
Exactly. Calvinism is such utter garbage that falls on its face and they simply state ITS A MYSTERY and man lost and illogical people think its a winning doctrine. They take some text literally but when God says ALL to them it means elect. I guess up is down and down is up. I feel so upset sometimes it's like trying to convince those who would support abortion that the life in the stomach is a life. Not just a clump of cells. Calvinism is false doctrine period.
The thing is though, you don’t know who is to be saved, or who is not. So that is why the gospel needs to be preached everywhere and to everyone. Right?
@@colebrown1584 bro...the determism...thats what makes no sense
@@jonathancoxmusic1985 He’s in control of all things through His common grace upon every human being. We would be abundantly more wickedly depraved and insane than we are now. You are free to act upon your greatest desire at any moment. But He’s in control because of His common grace upon everyone.
@@jonathancoxmusic1985 It’s His sovereignty. If God isn’t in control, then He isn’t God
Danny: Answers question or refutes Lucas' position.
Lucas: "No I know what you believe but.."
yep lol
Most important point: salvation is the work of God and God alone.
Gotta give it to him, he realizes specific (limited) atonement is intertwined.
A person can never lose their salvation. The question is, are they saved in the first place? If you follow a simple train of logic, the answer is easy - and it could mean the difference between heaven and hell for you!
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will enter heaven, but only those who do His will. What is the will of God? That you must be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16). Therefore, 'once saved, always saved' is true - if indeed a person is born of the Holy Spirit! It is pure logic:
1) A child of God loves God (I John 4.7)
2) Love never fails (I Cor 13.8)
3) Therefore, if love 'fails,' it was never love in the first place and if a person does not love God, they were never saved.
Hence, if you do not have the Holy Spirit, if you do not have those rivers of living water, you are not saved. Christ died on a Cross so that we can know Him. Christianity is relational. "This is eternal life, that you know God..." Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
Pray for Lucas 🙏🏼 may the Spirit give him scriptural clarity.
I agree, and he sounds convicted as he debates.
@@ghostl1124 I noticed that in his tone and body language, that is what the Spirit does to us and only by the grace placed upon us by God 🙏🏼
I think he has it clearly.
You've got to be kidding me Daniel literally couldn't answer any questions he was asked. He was stumped from the beginning lol
Daniel said "false believers that fall away". How can you fall away from a false belief? In my understanding you can fall from right belief, if you're in the wrong belief you're already fallen.
@@johntrevett2944 That's not what any of those verses said. You have to not listen with itching ears but listen to what the Scripture actually says. You have to understand all of the words like justification and sanctification. The only way to not believe in true believers not being able to apostatize is to ignore what Scripture says, grab your Calvinistic lenses, and look through them to pretend Scripture says something else.
This is why the Calvinist is all over the place. He has to lay out all of TULIP so he can pretend the Scripture says something else. And this is why the supposed "Arminian" stuck simply to the topic of the debate. He was able to rely on Scripture and not a manmade doctrine through which torturing of Scripture is required.
@@johntrevett2944 Did you skip v.29 for a reason?
And please explain the relevance. There is a sequence of events leading to eventual and final salvation. It does not begin with either justification or glorification.
Though these verses speak in the past tense, they do not occur immediately at regeneration which is itself preceded by faith.
@@johntrevett2944 You didn't answer why you skipped verse 29.
Being called, being predestined, being elected, faith, regeneration, justification, sanctification, salvation, glorification...
Tell me exactly when each of these happens and what each is premised on with scriptural citations.
After all, you believe it is simple and you go by what Scripture teaches.
@@johntrevett2944 So you're saying you have no clue what you're talking about. You blindly listen to others and effectively know nothing of Scripture and when challenged to simply back up with Scripture what you claim to be knowledgeable on, you flee from the opportunity to present God's Word.
What a faith to be proud of...or something.
ETA: Not even remotely a Judaizer but hey, since when did bearing false witness ever stop someone like you, right? After all, that's OT stuff and you don't need to keep that Law, right?
This entire debate can be reduced to 2 questions:
1) do you believe what the bible says?
2) if the bible says that Jesus arose from the grave to justify those who believe, do you accept this statement as true?
It’s that simple.
If we do not believe what the bible says then we have no part in either side of the argument. If we do believe what the bible says then we must accept that 1) God delivered Jesus for the reason of our offences against God 2) Jesus was raise up from the grave to justify faith.
If you agree that the bible is true and that God raised Jesus up from the grave to justify believers then also acknowledge Romans 4:25
Great debate so much of Gods word on both sides. The problem is putting labels and doctrines on Christianity. Like why can’t we all just believe in the scriptures and test each other on beliefs if they go south.
1:46:20 Lucas is basically saying Jesus will keep you from falling away as long as you don’t fall away.
Sort of.. I think, though, that this is more accurate:
John 15:1-11
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Obedience has, is and ALWAYS will be a choice which Christians are required to make every single day. One can't legally be called a Follower of CHRIST once they've chosen to renounce Their LEADER.
Give one example of someone being saved in the scriptures unwillingly
I agree. We obey because God gives us a new heart. Just like in Ezekiel 36:26
That is a common mischaracterization. We are not able to persevere without the empowering of the holy ghost. What we ARE able to do is to respond positively to God's drawing (faith, or at least a seed of faith), and THEN he will empower you to persevere. Faith is not a super power. It's not faith itself that grants you perseverance. It was God's choice and decision to enable those who have faith. it is God who will empower those who have faith, and those who have faith will persevere until the end, but only because it is God empowering them.
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
Notice in Mark 9:24 that the father of the chield responded positively to Jesus words to him, but he still asked for help (empowerment) in his unbelief. It's the same thing. God will empower those who respond positively.
Curcio's point on John 15 is devastating and the very strange and evasive response from Constantino illustrates just how strong that point is against ES. First, it is not a parable, but an allegory/metaphor. Second, he admits that the branches are in Christ to begin with and it is these branches that Christ is speaking to and admonishing to remain in Him lest they be cut off for not bearing fruit. He says Jesus is not really a vine so we can't take it literally. OK, his disciples are not literally branches either, so was there nothing for them to learn from what Jesus was saying? Jesus calling Himself the True Vine harkens back to the covenant people of God being likened to a vine in the OT. His point is that God's people are now summed up in Him. The identity of God's people is completely dependent on their union with the Head of the new covenant, which is Jesus. In a similar way Paul speaks of God's covenant people as an olive tree in Romans 11 and warns those who presently "stand by faith" that they will be broken off if they do not "continue" in God's kindness (through faith in contrast with the unbelief of those who were broken off as a result).
Fruit bearing is indeed a major point in this discourse, but fruit bearing is dependent on two very important factors that Jesus makes very clear. First, the branch must remain in the Vine to produce fruit. But why? Because the branch draws life from the Vine (without me you can do nothing). The branch is dependent on connection with the Vine for fruit bearing because it is dependent on connection with the Vine for life. It is only because the branch is receiving life from the Vine that it is able to produce fruit. This is highlighted when Jesus tells His disciples what happens to the branches that are cut off - they "wither." That is a deliberate picture of a branch that once possessed life no longer possessing life. Why? Because it is no longer connected to the source.
So we have two very good reason to see this as having reference to salvation. 1) The Vine is Jesus who sums up and represents God's covenant people in Himself, and one of the benefits of the new covenant is salvation (and nobody can be in, or remain in, that covenant group without faith). 2) Jesus doesn't just talk about fruit bearing but the dependence of the branch remaining connected to the Vine to have any life at all (cut off branches "wither" and are then burned in the fire). And we can add a third. Jesus says that He is in those who remain in Him. Constantino actually quoted that part if I remember right. So will he say that those who have Christ in them are not saved?
And of course, as Curios pointed out it is nonsense to say that branches that were cut off from the Vine were never in the Vine to begin with.
Lastly, Constantino made a big deal of this not referencing Jesus' body since it is not to be taken literally. Does he then think Paul meant that we are literally the physical body of Christ? Of course not. We are Christ's body because we are joined to Him through faith and He is the covenant Head of His people and as His body we have responsibilities. John 15 is making that same point using different imagery. So yeah, being cut off from the Vine is the same as being removed from Christ's body and being severed from the new covenant people of God. The consequence? No more life and being thrown in the fire.
I agree with Daniel 100%.
HEBREWS 10:26. I’m so glad he quotes this. HEBREWS 8 clearly tells the Hebrew people that the sacrifice 10:26 is talking about is the daily sacrifice the priest conducted for sins. Now I know just from this man Lucas open statement where he falls way short. Taking scripture and plugging in his own doctrine to make it fit what he believes
I’m torn now! Lucas is really making great points. 🤯
Saw some of this debate; it was interesting. Unfortunately, this once saved, always saved is not a Calvinist/Arminian thing, it's a Biblical thing. And the Bible says if we're saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), we will endure to the end. No one can snatch us out of God's/Jesus' hands (John 10:27-29). We're sealed by the Holy Spirit until glorification (Ephesians 1:13-14). God keeps and perserves us because He is faithful to do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). God who begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). If anyone "leaves" the faith, they were never of the faith (1 John 2:19). And I thought Daniel did a good job of addressing many of the verses that people can use to insinuate that you can lose your faith.
On the contrary....you cant DEPART from a faith you were never in...
" Beware, BRETHREN, LEST there be in any of YOU an evil heart of unbelief in DEPARTING FROM the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of YOU be hardened through the deceitfulness of SIN. For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast YO THE END" heb 3:12-14
" BEWARE BRETHREN"...there would be no stern warnings to BELIEVERS if there was no imminent DANGER. The bible is LOADED with them, most coming from the Lord Himself. That alone destroys the notion that you will automatically WILL persevere and not fall away. In fact MOST WILL DEPART from the faith and only FEW will remain on the road that leads to eternal life!
" Because narrow is the gate and DIFFICULT is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it." Mat. 7:14
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron," 1 Tim 4:1
Only a true believer can DEPART from the faith, which also destroys the " never saved to begin with " fallacy.
@@emoure77 The Hebrew passages are difficult to interpret for sure, but they don't pertain to true believers leaving the faith. (And if you were never in the faith, then it would make you a false convert like 1 John 2:19 says.) If you keep reading all the way until Hebrews 4:3, it says those which have believed do enter into rest. The writer makes a distinction. Any among the audience being written to in Hebrews were being warned that they could be among those that have a heart of unbelief. That doesn't mean they were saved and lost their faith; it means they are among believers as professing faith yet not truly of the faith. That's why there are plenty of verses that tell believers to make their calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10) and to examine yourself in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).
And if you can leave the faith, then you're able to snatch yourself out of Jesus' and the Father's hands contrary to Jesus' words in John 10:27-29 and you're able to break the seal of the Holy Spirit unto glorification in Ephesians 1:13-14. In addition, you can now kick the indwelling Holy Spirit out of your body, which is the temple of God according to 1 Corinthians 6:19. And of course, this makes you able to separate you from the love of God found in Romans 8:35-39 because that love of God is in Christ Jesus. If you can take yourself out of Christ Jesus, then the promises of not being separated from His love is a lie just like Jesus' words are a lie in John 10:27-29. Sorry, but I trust the God-breathed, sufficient Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17) in its proper context and grammar.
@@2timothy23 over 200 years ago, John Wesley wrote a similar article using the same Scriptures to the Calvinists of his day. they did not respond then and Durbin, White, Washer or any other Calvinist of today will not respond to them either. these wolves are experts at "explaining, interpreting" but will never address the actual Scriptures. these warnings were written to saved individuals.
ONLY a saved person who was delivered by Jesus from the slavery of sin, John 8:34, 36; Titus 2:14 is in danger of being seduced by his flesh again and end in hell if he dies before repenting and abandoning those sins, Matt. 5:20, 28-30; 13:41-43, 49, 50; 18:8, 9; Mark 9:43-47; 1 Cor. 51-13; 6:9, 10; 2 Cor. 12:21; Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:3-7
ONLY a saved person can depart from the faith, 1 Tim. 4:1, 16; 5:12; 6:10, 21; 2 Tim. 2:17, 18; 4:3, 4; Heb. 6:4-8; Jam. 5:19, 20
ONLY a believer can stop believing, Luke 8:13; Acts 8:13, 21-23; 1 Tim. 1:18, 19; 6:10, 21; Heb. 10:38
ONLY a saved person is in danger of not remaining in the Lord, John 8:31; 15:4-6, 10; 1 John 2:24, 28; 2 John 1:9
ONLY a green branch inserted into the Vine can wither, John 15:1-6; Rom. 11:20-22
ONLY a spiritually alive/saved person can die spiritually again. (the unsaved are already spiritually dead Eph. 2:1, 5) Rom. 8:11-13; 1 Cor. 8:11; 1 Tim. 5:6; Jam. 1:14-16; 1 John 5:16, 17; Rev. 3:1, 2
ONLY saved persons can stop following God, John 6:66; 10:27; Matt. 10:38; 16:24; John 12:26; Heb. 3:6, 12-14; 2 Pet. 2:15
ONLY those in grace can fall from grace, 2 Cor. 6:1; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 12:15
ONLY someone who loves the Lord can stop loving Him, Matt. 10:37; 24:12; Rev. 2:4
ONLY a saved person can deny knowing the Lord and in turn the Lord will deny him, Matt. 10:33; 26:34, 35; 2 Tim. 2:12; 2 Pet. 2:1; Jude 1:4
ONLY a saved person can lose his holiness and with it his salvation, 1 Cor. 9:27; 10:12; 15:33, 34; 2 Cor. 6:16-18; 7:1; Gal. 6:7, 8; Ph. 3:18, 19; Heb. 12:14-17; 2 Pet. 1:5-11; 3:17
ONLY a saved person is in danger of returning to the world from where the Lord delivered him, 2 Tim. 4:10; Jam. 4:4; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; 1 John 2:15
ONLY a saved person is in danger of losing his perseverance and with it his future inheritance, Acts 14:22; Rom. 2:6-10; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Tim. 2:15
a Bible defined Christian was a sinner whom Jesus delivered from the condemnation and corruption of sin. this sinner experienced a RADICAL MORAL TRANSFORMATION by the grace of God, Titus 2:11, 12 he who was a sinner is now a saint who MUST be on guard against the temptations of his flesh and the world, confronting and overcoming thoughts and deeds that may lead him to sin against the God he once despised but now loves.
"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
2 Cor. 7:1
this was a great debate but the once saved always saved guy's explanation for the passage saying people casting out devils in his name etc. & spewing them outa his mouth, is a very bad explanation becuz those workers of iniquity doing miraculous deeds in Jesus Christ name wouldnt be able to cast out devils in his name without having some kinda faith in Christ, like Jesus told the pharisees; a devil that causes certain ale-ments cant and wont heal those ale-ments nor can a devil cast out other devils. anyways, I loved both speakers they were both incredibly knowledgable and respectful, what a great and wonderful debate, God bless and may Jesus Christ to continue to protect and guide them both
We still have free will but I agree God changes our hearts that we become more and more like Him as much as possible until we are like Him when we are given our glorified bodies.
Wow man, the conditional salvation guy really laid the smack down on the other dude. And I lean towards the belief that once saved, always saved.
One of the best articles I've seen on the issue
@MarkT , it's because OSAS is dangerously false and it's Satans doctrine to let Christians lower their guard,...and eventually slip into a lifestyle of sin....and Walah!...before you know it you are on the broad/easy road to hell.
Both guys in the debate during the question and answer time both said that they both REJECT the doctrine of once saved always saved.
@@rpvideos4118 yes, especially the Kent Hovind or Joseph Prince kind of OSAS
@@rpvideos4118 well, the Calvinist believes once saved, always saved on the basis that God saves and you don’t save yourself. He saves His people by the preaching of the gospel. He believes that the Holy Spirit then convicts the person of their sin, then that leads to a true profession of belief. He rejects that you can be saved and fall away. That is saying God isn’t in control and you are.
Listening to Arminianism defended is like listening to a Catholic defend the Pope….both have a significant amount of human effort and authority glued to the completed work of Christ. Both have Christ plus….whatever. And are in tragic error because of it.
Totowa, New Jersey?! No way I’m about ten minutes from there.
Daniel, wow, Brother, you did a fantastic job! You’re a true apologetical talent, don’t stop!
My understanding is that salvation is conditional upon the continuation of faith which God promises to sustain in those he unconditionally called/ elected. I would further make a distinction between a false profession of faith and a true saving faith.
A person can never lose their salvation. The question is, are they saved in the first place? If you follow a simple train of logic, the answer is easy - and it could mean the difference between heaven and hell for you!
Not everyone who calls Jesus 'Lord' will enter heaven, but only those who do His will. What is the will of God? That you must be born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8.16). Therefore, 'once saved, always saved' is true - if indeed a person is born of the Holy Spirit! It is pure logic:
1) A child of God loves God (I John 4.7)
2) Love never fails (I Cor 13.8)
3) Therefore, if love 'fails,' it was never love in the first place and if a person does not love God, they were never saved.
Hence, if you do not have the Holy Spirit, if you do not have those rivers of living water, you are not saved. Christ died on a Cross so that we can know Him. Christianity is relational. "This is eternal life, that you know God..." Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
No, salvation is conditioned upon us continuing to good, sowing to the Spirit, and not giving up according to Paul (not me). Look -
“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.”
Galatians 6:7-9 NKJV
@@abideintheWord I hope that you will prayerfully consider what I have to say, as there is no more important topic than what salvation is and is not. First, remember this topic is fraught with danger as many will seek to enter heaven (i.e. Christians), but only a few will be able to.
Paul wrote, "Whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved." Now, either that is true or Paul is lying. Is it true that whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved? It has to be, as the Bible is true, so let's see how the other conditions are met when a person truly calls upon the Name of the Lord.
First, not everyone who 'prays the prayer' or 'accepts Christ' is going to heaven, so 'calling upon the Name of the Lord' has a deeper meaning. You brought up some good points: those who are saved perserver and bear fruit. Hence, ALL who genuinely call upon the Lord will bear fruit and perserver, otherwise they would not be saved. More on that later.
Next is the most important part. I hope that you are not forming arguments in your mind, but will genuinely consider what I have to say from the Word: those who are saved are born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit bearing witness that they are saved. They are seated in the heavenlies with Christ. Does that describe your walk with the Lord?
Referring to the Holy Spirit, Jesus said that whoever believes on Him (i.e. is filled with the Holy Spirit) will have 'rivers of living water bubbling up inside them to eternal life.' Conversely, if you do not have those rivers of life, neither are you saved! Yet, if you have been born again, you know Christ. It is written that 'love endures all things.' If 'love' does not endure, it was never love, the person was never saved, and they never 'called upon the Name of the Lord.' All those who call upon the Lord will be seated in the heavenlies with Christ. Those in Christ live for the Lord, every breath is to the glory of God.
Moreover, those who love Christ HATE the flesh. Certainly, all of us have character failures, but those in Christ beg, with unspeakable urgency, for Christ-likeness. If you want to talk about fruit in my life, if you want to compare, if you think I am copping out of serving the Lord, do you pray for hours every day and are you in the Word of God for hours and hours each day? If not, then bring that to God. Are you filled with the Holy Spirit or do you live in fear of God's judgment? Remember that perfect love casts out all fear. You can have that, but you must pray with a believing heart, remembering that God keeps His promises.'
Yet, most 'Christians' do not even want to be filled with the Holy Spirit. They draw near with their lips, but their hearts are far from God. As Christ foretold, only a few Christians will make it to heaven. Where will you be in eternity? Will you be with those whose souls are dry, with no awareness of the presence of God or will you face Christ as a friend, having been filled with the Holy Spirit, seated in the heavenlies with Christ? Where will you be?
Remember, Christ died on a Cross so that we may know Him. To those who do not know Him, He will say, "Depart from Me." Ask and you shall receive! Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
@@kenshiloh of course that Scripture is true. But is the Scripture I presented then not true? All of it is true. We don’t just take away Scripture that doesn’t agree with our theology. The Bible talks about three tenses of being saved - past present and future. We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved - if we keep on doing good. That’s not my opinion, that’s what the Bible says as I just showed you. Look at the passage I presented. Do you not agree with it? It’s what it says.
@@abideintheWord It could be that we both need to look at each other's Bible verses more carefully. You quoted from Galatians, “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.” Galatians 6:7-9 NKJV
Actually, this verse echoes one of my favorite Bible verses, "But I beat down my body, and bring it into subjection, lest by any means after that I have preached to others, I myself should be reproved." I do not believe that this verse is about salvation, but about fulfilling all the God has for us to do. In the same way, we should not 'lose heart.' This is not a salvation issue, but one of completing the works that God prepared for us to do.
That said, do you agree that those who are saved will 1) bear much fruit and be focused on the Holy Spirit and not the flesh and 2) endure to the end? Are we in agreement on those two points? Yet, do not ignore Romans 10.13 (as you have done so far in your responses), "Whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved." Let's put two parts of a puzzle together: Whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be of the Holy Spirit, shall bear much fruit, and endure to the end. Therefore, there is not a person in hell tonight who has called upon the Name of the Lord. Perhaps they prayed the 'Sinner's Prayer' or 'Accepted Christ,' yet they were never filled with the Holy Spirit, born again, seated in the heavenlies with Christ.
Please, for the sake of your soul, do not avoid this question: Is it true that whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord SHALL be saved? Again, if a person winds up in hell, they - are not saved, as 'saved' means saved from God's wrath. There is no such thing as temporary salvation! He who believes in Christ HAS eternal life - and it is redundant to say that eternal life lasts forever and that, if does not last forever, it was not eternal life!
As for my own testimony, I met the Lord 45 years ago and since that time I have not had even one second of doubt that I know the Lord and am bound for heaven - not even for a second. Conversely, if you have no assurance of salvation, may the Lord give you peace! The Bible says that you can KNOW that you are saved (Bible references available upon request). That is, for 45 years I have been seated in the heavenlies with Christ, the Holy Spirit bearing witness that I am saved, not just temporarily, based on my performance, but because I have been born again. That said, those who are genuinely born again live every second for the Lord.
I pray that you can have assurance. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.
After reading the words of Jesus, I truly believe one can lose their salvation. Salt becoming not-salty, fig tree not having fruit, being cut from the vine (what was cut was IN the vine), parable of seeds not flourishing (they were planted in thin soil and died). Many believers (not disciplines) cling to man's words of once saved always saved. Many of these believers are not producing fruit or growing the Kingdom. Of course they want to believe this man made theology.
My advise to this type of believer, become a DISCIPLE! Don't just goto church, but rather serve in your church. Make an effort to produce fruit. You can't earn salvation, but if you are truly saved you'll be producing fruit.
Jesus will say to them get away from me I never knew you. He didn't say we used to know each other and now we don't know each other he says I never knew you. Indicating that they were never saved to begin with
Daniel🔥👏 salvation is God's not man
The warning passages were written in the time before the judgment of Jerusalem and the coming of the Lord in that judgment. During this period there was a danger of falling away by turning back to Judaism (works) before that old covenant passed away. Timing is therefore the missing key to both views. Who were the authors speaking to? It wasn't us - but that current generation that was going to see these things (Olivet Discourse) fulfilled.
Salvation is Faith in Christ alone
The question is can your faith be compromised or shipwrecked....and what are the consequences.
He who sins is of the devil
“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.”
Galatians 6:7-9 NKJV
@@abideintheWord Amen! " we shall reap, IF we do not lose heart"
Which implies that losing heart or giving up and NOT reaping eternal life is possible to the current believers! That's a warning to believers!
The great tragedy of the doctrine of salvation by faith alone is the deception it brings to the hearts of those who honestly are seeking the truth of deliverance from sin and in the mind of God fail to achieve that blessing. Why? The apostle Paul warned Timothy of the dangers of the doctrines of men. "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables" (II Timothy 4:3-4). The doctrine of salvation by faith alone is a falsehood.
I’m not a Calvinist or an Arminian so this should be interesting😂
@seanxl_ what’s that?
Great position to be in! Let the scriptures do the talking...
@@alwayslia2986 it says that God has “middle knowledge” that he knows what people would do if they were in a different circumstance. James white has great videos on disproving it like this one ruclips.net/video/TAcaQvchrKg/видео.html
Same, we have freedom but there are limits to it.
@@StallionFernando yeah, I honestly don’t know what I believe on most secondary issues smh. But I definitely know and believe the Gospel and that’s all that matters☺️
Lucas frustrated me so much in the beginning. His wordplay did not help anyone. He was playing a verbal version of “keep your eye on the cup with the ball under it.”
God doesn’t save “believing ones.” He saves sinners.
Very cool debate. Both done well but Daniel give a much more persuasive defense and used a lot more scripture to back up his arguments.
What was his most persuasive argument? He's a false teacher bro
@@thizz707gr they are both in the flesh. But lucus is right. In revelations it says who will perish. Whether they are a "believer" or not doesn't matter.
Daniel had like 5 verses in his opening. Lucas quoted like half of chapters. He showed context, daniel talked about it big difference.
How can there be "no longer any sacrifice remaining for sins" for people who were never saved? If you aren't saved, you aren't the elect so how was there ever a sacrifice remaining no longer? It means this unsaved group (who can never be saved per election) could be saved for a moment for some reason but not anymore because they're following old covenant? Weird gymnastics.
comments are interesting. Some say Lucas did great; others Daniel did great. It seems that Lucas is confusing justification with sanctification or vice versa. I was arminian from the beginning but as I grew as a Christian I saw that I was wrong.
Saying that Christ intercedes for people who go to hell is like saying that the OT priest’s intercession failed to cover the sins of Israel.
Attempting to protect man-centered theology will make people say and believe the strangest and most contradictory things.
Lucas continues to say : but it’s the one believing . The one with faith . He’s focused on faith faith faith faith .., and he’s right . The question tho he’s overlooking is : what faith ? Where does it come from ? Is it self generated faith or GOD GRANTED FAITH? That’s what I believe he’s gotta understand. Yea verse 40 says the believing , but the believing ones are the ones drawn.
Here’s the vital point :
He doesn’t draw those who believe . They believe as a result of being drawn.
That’s what the drawing is :
Disposition of the heart.
The text doesn’t say that, stop adding to the bible
I watched this at just the right time!
My Dad is under the assumption that if you are a born again Christian, and you commit a sin and God forbid something tragic happens to you, and have no time to repent the wrath of God abides on you. I’m trying to show him by scripture that that’s false
Be careful though. The debate was about whether or not we are saved by the gift of faith or not. The scriptures also state that the Lord corrects and teaches us from the Word and by us suffering the mortal consequences of our sins.
Both of these guys are false teachers, for both do not accept that Jesus FINISHED the propitiation once and for all. The gospel is not complicated: God loved us in spite of our corruption through sin, so He came in human form, by the name Jesus, to take the full penalty for that corruption upon Himself, and since He went willingly to the cross, He was raised from the dead to conquer death, allowing us to inherit eternal life by taking His identity on ourselves through the singular act of belief/trust in what He did. When you do trust, two things happen simultaneously: you turn from the love of sin towards His grace/acceptance, and you accept His identity through the indwelling of His Spirit (i.e. the Holy Spirit, which fights continually against your old, corrupt spirit/nature of sinfulness).
Christians aren’t sinners….
God will not allow sini into Heaven.
@@thepreacherswife8474 we are only deemed righteous by accepting Jesus identity on ourselves when we trust in what He did. We are “immersed” in His Spirit, so-to-speak, and sealed by Him unto the day of redemption
Salvation is from the Lord. Ephesians 2:8-9 shows that it's not of us...but a gift of God. Help him see that if we can not earn it, then we can't maintain it. Romans 4:5-8 is very important..."Blessed is the man to whom God will not impute sin" When our sins are forgiven...it's Past, present and future. There's a RUclips channel with Dr. Edward Dalcour called "Department of Christian Defense"... He has a handful of short and powerful teachings. There was a good debate the other day on "Standing for Truth" and it was on Eternal Security. Donny rocked that debate...he is the channel owner. He's not Calvinist but he is Spot on. It's ridiculous to think God would save us and then just let us go. Because we can't hold onto that. Everything possible will come against us ...we will stumble, we will fall but we will never fall away because God is Holding us. Titus 3:5... It's good to understand that it was never by works that we are saved....Soo why then would the sanctification part be any different? When Jesus tells Nicodemus about the New Birth in John 3:3-5 it's Jesus pointing Nicodemus back to Ezekiel 36:25-27... Everything is God saying "l will, l will, l will .." Trust God. That's when Titus 3:5 is painted..."not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of Regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit." He saves us by Regeneration... The New Birth which includes the New Heart. It's all "a work of God." If you are on Instagram...come see me if you can't find the debate. I'm under this name. Also if you listen to the James White debate on salvation with Trent Horn...it's a 2 part...James White is stellar on that debate. God bless you for standing on the truth. Salvation is Eternal...how can anyone even believe that Eternal life is not Eternal. 📖🌷 Just tell your Father to Remember whom God is. 🙏
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
This debate has sent me on a quest. Still unclear about this. Layman terms seems evident but much confusion in my mind.