I’m already all-in on the Del Mar. Good insight on the accelerated design process. As someone involved in equipment design, making prototypes is time-consuming, painful, and leaves you full of regrets. Too many assumptions and educated guesses that don’t pan out, and then you have to decide how to fix them before building the next version - all with deadlines looming. It’s seems like it would be exciting, but the mistakes and compromises gnaw at you - especially when they show up as unexpected surprises in the builds and as gremlins as the products age. This new approach makes a ton of sense - make and test a gazillion prototypes in software first, then your first-build physical prototype is more mistake-free with fewer surprises. Dig it.
Well the design studies for the 747 began in 65 and the first commercial unit was delivered January of 1970. This is 5 years from concept to commercialization without any of substantial computer modelling for one of the best engineered machines man ever made and that was still in production this year. That is stunning considering HD took 9 years from concept to production of the ELW. The 747 airframe was produced commercially for 53 years and this was done without sophisticated modelling. Modelling has its place, but exceptional engineers are superlative even without supercomputers.
@@LiveWire_Guy Sure, I get that. Many good designs were made in 1965 and 1955 and 1945 and 55 BC. The Egyptians did a helluva job on the pyramids. In 1965, though, drawings were done on paper and calculations were done using slide rules. But, no designer would want go back to the way things were in 1965. Design tools keep advancing, and design engineering capabilities advance with them.
@@ChitFromChinola They don't make anything superior which was Jack's premise for saying that after 1 hour of test riding the Del Mar is vastly better than the Livewire 1. He didn't say the Del Mar is vastly better than the sphynx. He said it's vastly superior to the Livewire 1. Garbage in, garbage out. Design tools unto themselves mean nothing and prove nothing. Miles under your butt tell the story. 1 hour says jack shit. Further, an accelerated design process is worthless if the result is garbage. Be a passenger on Lion Air 610 or Ethiopian Air 302 and tell me how good the advanced modelling was as compared to the flying pyramid. And you can't know that "Del Mar is vastly superior to the LW`" with 1 hour of driving it, very few reports of rideability and only LW marketing for information.
I understand Triumph and Royal Enfield are using Altair Hyperworks and MotionSolve for their R&D and design. They complete the design using software, send it to one of their factories somewhere in the world, and knock out a prototype for testing. The main benefit of a prototype is that it allows communicate between marketing, design, engineering, testing and QC, and production teams. Eliminating prototypes in a small company working on one model may work but it seems like it adds risk within the design and production engineering process. To be honest, as LiveWire is losing money and HD continues to pick up 80% of the investment, eliminating prototypes sounds more like a cost cutting move rather than an innovative design step. The expectations for LiveWire were very high but so far they have missed the mark and they need a segment leading product to survive.
What kind of Drugs is this is Jack on? Harley Owners like to take their Mufflers off and Rev their engines to show off to others. My Yamaha FZ-07 has a 3.5 gallon Tank .. I have to stop 3-4 times per day to fill it up .. Usually only put in 2.5 to 2.7 gallons with a fill up. It takes longer to go in and use the restroom than it does for me to fill my gas tank . Urban adventure if you like to get ran over buy idiots in 4 wheelers.. My bike is very quiet. but I wish it had an exhaust cut out to make it really loud when I am riding in the City .
With less than an hour or less on a Del Mar, how can you say it is so much better than a Livewire? Until you take the thing on a 500 mile journey and experience all its warts, you can’t know that. The ELW/1 still seems the better bike after my test ride of the Del Mar. The $30k/22k versus $15k difference was notable to me. Del Mar doesn’t have DC charging, as one difference. The build quality and constructions materials feel 100% big iron HD on the Livewire. Del Mar feels less expensive, but not as cheaply made as a Zero SR. Correct me if I’m wrong but the drive belt is much narrower on the Del Mar. Given zero’s tendency to snap belts when rapidly loading and unloading the rear suspension, I like the ELW/1 belt the way it is. Start snapping Del Mar belts and tell me how that affects your happiness with the bike. If my recollection of the Del Mar is correct.
While it's true that one hour is not a reliable measure, the mentioned bike incorporates numerous advanced features that have been developed since its inception. The bike utilizes cutting-edge technology, innovative materials, and modern modeling techniques. It's important to consider that the Delmar bike is specifically designed for inner city urban use, which explains the absence of features like DCFC (Direct Current Fast Charging) and other components necessary for longer range capability. With its approximately 10.5 kWh pack, the bike can cover around 70 miles at an average speed of 70 mph. In comparison, its larger counterparts, the ELW and ELW1, can achieve up to 100 miles at 65 mph depending on terrain and other environmental factors. Having personally ridden the Delmar, I find it to be an excellent handling bike, and what impresses me the most is its advanced technology, surpassing that of the ELW or LW1
Jack is a savvy, experienced rider - including 14,000 miles on a LiveWire One - so I find his impressions and insights for the Del Mar believable, useful, and valuable. He speaks very highly of the One, and in this video, he didn’t make any long term reliability or durability projections for the Del Mar. Regarding your prediction, without evidence, that the Del Mar will suffer from premature drive-belt failures, ima gonna predict, based on the high-quality engineering that’s been done on LiveWire motorcycles, that the LW engineers know their stuff, and the drive-belt they selected will have excellent durability.
@@ChitFromChinola I have thousands of miles on a Livewire, own a Zero SR and have had my m/c license for 45 years. Jack's not the only one who is "savvy and experienced." First, regarding the "high quality engineering" and engineers "who know their stuff." These are the same guys who gave up on DC charging on the Del Mar and never got DC charging right on the ELW/1 which suffers charger rejections every day of the week, and who couldn't correctly spec out lower power DC chargers for their Livewire dealer network, right? Sorry, nobody is beyond having their engineering challenged. Next, regarding the belt. This is a what if and it directly challenges Jack's claim, after an hour test drive, that the Del Mar is "so much better than the LiveWire 1." "So much better" is highly subjective and it would be very narrow cast to say this if the bike were impossible to live with irrespective of it being a designed video game on wheels. Boeing uses simulation every day of the week in their designs yet they f'ed themselves up with two fatal 737 MAX crashes, numerous 787 production holds and years of delay on their 777x. This to the point that it looks like Boeing will never be able to compete with Airbus again. Jack is very misled if he thinks computer simulation of engineered systems is the end all be all. I say this as a licensed professional engineer. The belt.. I am not even sure if the belt is thinner on the Del Mar, but it's one of the first things I looked at before my test ride. It struck me then about 70% the width of the ELW/1's belt. Given my experience with the narrow belt on the Zero SR snapping when going over RR tracks and whatnot due to the rapid loading and unloading of the suspension, more power too you for your strong believe in the sanctity of Livewire engineering and their infallibility. You are the perfect consumer. Good luck with your new Del Mar. I can't wait to get mine. And, because of the test ride, it was reduced to $15k, as well.
@@compuhombre I am sorry Diego, I have a livewire, zero, have personally driven the Del Mar and been in the EV space for 13 years. I have been in product development for decades. I cannot see the "advanced technology" or that "The Del Mar is so much superior to the Livewire 1." I wrote one of the first reviews published after my del mar test ride a few weeks back. First, not having high speed charging is just copium for a bad decision. There is nobody who wants a bike that needs 70 minutes to charge when the equivalent gas bike "charges" in a minute. Nobody (whether they are aware of it or not). 70 minute charging is a liability that will become more intolerable in the next couple of years as stations and cars start to push the CCS standard of 350 kW or the new Tesla 1000 kW standard. And as Jack himself pointed out, if you don't have street level L2 charging available at home or work, the Del Mar won't work for you. An urban bike is often owned by a person who lives in an apartment. This is why Sondors was successful selling his bike when he lied about the battery being removable so it could be carried upstairs to charge in your apartment. Unfortunately, this was one of his bald faced lies, but he understood the market better than the Del Mar copium suggests. I have not bashed Del Mar. I recommended a buy and I put a deposit down. The only upgrades over the LiveWire apparent to me in the Del Mar test drive are: vastly improved mirrors, vastly improved switch pods, 100 lbs lighter weight which led to one of the most flickable bikes I have ever ridden and a more UJM riding position. All of these are not high tech upgrades. And of course, at my test ride price of $15k, price makes this the cheapest Harley offered for sale and a full $6,339 less than the LW1 (LW currently has a $1500 rebate bringing the cost to $21,399). I think $15k for the technology under your butt in the Del Mar makes it one of the greatest reasons to be alive today. Kudos for the LiveWire engineers bringing this to market under the tutelage of big daddy, HD. Please elaborate on the other substantial improvements that were so apparent on a test ride that I missed.
@@LiveWire_Guy There are many that will come to light in a few weeks and that I am bound by NDA not to speak about. Thank you for your vast experience and knowledge in the field of EV.
I worked on both teams and both used AIGT
Advanced Intelligence Great Teams!
I just finished reading your bio on LinkedIn. Respect.
Keep plugging away Jack. You, and Livewire are both gaining traction.
I’m already all-in on the Del Mar. Good insight on the accelerated design process. As someone involved in equipment design, making prototypes is time-consuming, painful, and leaves you full of regrets. Too many assumptions and educated guesses that don’t pan out, and then you have to decide how to fix them before building the next version - all with deadlines looming. It’s seems like it would be exciting, but the mistakes and compromises gnaw at you - especially when they show up as unexpected surprises in the builds and as gremlins as the products age. This new approach makes a ton of sense - make and test a gazillion prototypes in software first, then your first-build physical prototype is more mistake-free with fewer surprises. Dig it.
Well the design studies for the 747 began in 65 and the first commercial unit was delivered January of 1970. This is 5 years from concept to commercialization without any of substantial computer modelling for one of the best engineered machines man ever made and that was still in production this year. That is stunning considering HD took 9 years from concept to production of the ELW. The 747 airframe was produced commercially for 53 years and this was done without sophisticated modelling. Modelling has its place, but exceptional engineers are superlative even without supercomputers.
@@LiveWire_Guy
Sure, I get that. Many good designs were made in 1965 and 1955 and 1945 and 55 BC. The Egyptians did a helluva job on the pyramids. In 1965, though, drawings were done on paper and calculations were done using slide rules. But, no designer would want go back to the way things were in 1965. Design tools keep advancing, and design engineering capabilities advance with them.
@@ChitFromChinola They don't make anything superior which was Jack's premise for saying that after 1 hour of test riding the Del Mar is vastly better than the Livewire 1. He didn't say the Del Mar is vastly better than the sphynx. He said it's vastly superior to the Livewire 1.
Garbage in, garbage out. Design tools unto themselves mean nothing and prove nothing. Miles under your butt tell the story. 1 hour says jack shit.
Further, an accelerated design process is worthless if the result is garbage. Be a passenger on Lion Air 610 or Ethiopian Air 302 and tell me how good the advanced modelling was as compared to the flying pyramid.
And you can't know that "Del Mar is vastly superior to the LW`" with 1 hour of driving it, very few reports of rideability and only LW marketing for information.
Great video Jack keep the thoughts and hypothesis coming! The bike has very advanced telematics so a lot of sensors and data capute.
I understand Triumph and Royal Enfield are using Altair Hyperworks and MotionSolve for their R&D and design. They complete the design using software, send it to one of their factories somewhere in the world, and knock out a prototype for testing. The main benefit of a prototype is that it allows communicate between marketing, design, engineering, testing and QC, and production teams. Eliminating prototypes in a small company working on one model may work but it seems like it adds risk within the design and production engineering process. To be honest, as LiveWire is losing money and HD continues to pick up 80% of the investment, eliminating prototypes sounds more like a cost cutting move rather than an innovative design step. The expectations for LiveWire were very high but so far they have missed the mark and they need a segment leading product to survive.
What kind of Drugs is this is Jack on? Harley Owners like to take their Mufflers off and Rev their engines to show off to others. My Yamaha FZ-07 has a 3.5 gallon Tank .. I have to stop 3-4 times per day to fill it up .. Usually only put in 2.5 to 2.7 gallons with a fill up. It takes longer to go in and use the restroom than it does for me to fill my gas tank .
Urban adventure if you like to get ran over buy idiots in 4 wheelers..
My bike is very quiet. but I wish it had an exhaust cut out to make it really loud when I am riding in the City .
With less than an hour or less on a Del Mar, how can you say it is so much better than a Livewire? Until you take the thing on a 500 mile journey and experience all its warts, you can’t know that. The ELW/1 still seems the better bike after my test ride of the Del Mar. The $30k/22k versus $15k difference was notable to me. Del Mar doesn’t have DC charging, as one difference. The build quality and constructions materials feel 100% big iron HD on the Livewire. Del Mar feels less expensive, but not as cheaply made as a Zero SR. Correct me if I’m wrong but the drive belt is much narrower on the Del Mar. Given zero’s tendency to snap belts when rapidly loading and unloading the rear suspension, I like the ELW/1 belt the way it is. Start snapping Del Mar belts and tell me how that affects your happiness with the bike. If my recollection of the Del Mar is correct.
While it's true that one hour is not a reliable measure, the mentioned bike incorporates numerous advanced features that have been developed since its inception. The bike utilizes cutting-edge technology, innovative materials, and modern modeling techniques. It's important to consider that the Delmar bike is specifically designed for inner city urban use, which explains the absence of features like DCFC (Direct Current Fast Charging) and other components necessary for longer range capability. With its approximately 10.5 kWh pack, the bike can cover around 70 miles at an average speed of 70 mph. In comparison, its larger counterparts, the ELW and ELW1, can achieve up to 100 miles at 65 mph depending on terrain and other environmental factors. Having personally ridden the Delmar, I find it to be an excellent handling bike, and what impresses me the most is its advanced technology, surpassing that of the ELW or LW1
Jack is a savvy, experienced rider - including 14,000 miles on a LiveWire One - so I find his impressions and insights for the Del Mar believable, useful, and valuable. He speaks very highly of the One, and in this video, he didn’t make any long term reliability or durability projections for the Del Mar. Regarding your prediction, without evidence, that the Del Mar will suffer from premature drive-belt failures, ima gonna predict, based on the high-quality engineering that’s been done on LiveWire motorcycles, that the LW engineers know their stuff, and the drive-belt they selected will have excellent durability.
@@ChitFromChinola I have thousands of miles on a Livewire, own a Zero SR and have had my m/c license for 45 years. Jack's not the only one who is "savvy and experienced."
First, regarding the "high quality engineering" and engineers "who know their stuff." These are the same guys who gave up on DC charging on the Del Mar and never got DC charging right on the ELW/1 which suffers charger rejections every day of the week, and who couldn't correctly spec out lower power DC chargers for their Livewire dealer network, right? Sorry, nobody is beyond having their engineering challenged.
Next, regarding the belt. This is a what if and it directly challenges Jack's claim, after an hour test drive, that the Del Mar is "so much better than the LiveWire 1." "So much better" is highly subjective and it would be very narrow cast to say this if the bike were impossible to live with irrespective of it being a designed video game on wheels.
Boeing uses simulation every day of the week in their designs yet they f'ed themselves up with two fatal 737 MAX crashes, numerous 787 production holds and years of delay on their 777x. This to the point that it looks like Boeing will never be able to compete with Airbus again. Jack is very misled if he thinks computer simulation of engineered systems is the end all be all. I say this as a licensed professional engineer.
The belt.. I am not even sure if the belt is thinner on the Del Mar, but it's one of the first things I looked at before my test ride. It struck me then about 70% the width of the ELW/1's belt. Given my experience with the narrow belt on the Zero SR snapping when going over RR tracks and whatnot due to the rapid loading and unloading of the suspension, more power too you for your strong believe in the sanctity of Livewire engineering and their infallibility. You are the perfect consumer.
Good luck with your new Del Mar. I can't wait to get mine. And, because of the test ride, it was reduced to $15k, as well.
@@compuhombre I am sorry Diego, I have a livewire, zero, have personally driven the Del Mar and been in the EV space for 13 years. I have been in product development for decades. I cannot see the "advanced technology" or that "The Del Mar is so much superior to the Livewire 1."
I wrote one of the first reviews published after my del mar test ride a few weeks back.
First, not having high speed charging is just copium for a bad decision. There is nobody who wants a bike that needs 70 minutes to charge when the equivalent gas bike "charges" in a minute. Nobody (whether they are aware of it or not). 70 minute charging is a liability that will become more intolerable in the next couple of years as stations and cars start to push the CCS standard of 350 kW or the new Tesla 1000 kW standard.
And as Jack himself pointed out, if you don't have street level L2 charging available at home or work, the Del Mar won't work for you. An urban bike is often owned by a person who lives in an apartment. This is why Sondors was successful selling his bike when he lied about the battery being removable so it could be carried upstairs to charge in your apartment. Unfortunately, this was one of his bald faced lies, but he understood the market better than the Del Mar copium suggests.
I have not bashed Del Mar. I recommended a buy and I put a deposit down. The only upgrades over the LiveWire apparent to me in the Del Mar test drive are: vastly improved mirrors, vastly improved switch pods, 100 lbs lighter weight which led to one of the most flickable bikes I have ever ridden and a more UJM riding position. All of these are not high tech upgrades. And of course, at my test ride price of $15k, price makes this the cheapest Harley offered for sale and a full $6,339 less than the LW1 (LW currently has a $1500 rebate bringing the cost to $21,399). I think $15k for the technology under your butt in the Del Mar makes it one of the greatest reasons to be alive today. Kudos for the LiveWire engineers bringing this to market under the tutelage of big daddy, HD.
Please elaborate on the other substantial improvements that were so apparent on a test ride that I missed.
@@LiveWire_Guy There are many that will come to light in a few weeks and that I am bound by NDA not to speak about. Thank you for your vast experience and knowledge in the field of EV.