I wouldn't worry about a character dominating the any% category. Since they're so different, we're probably going to have different speedrun categories for each character. It'd be ridiculous to not
this completely glances over what i love most about RW's movement system: how clumsy it feels at first, and now satisfying it is, when you get a hang of it, and you start moving fluidly.
Coming in late, but I would consider that a problem to be honest. Sure, it's satisfying when you get it, but unless you're actively training to smooth out every movement tech, you ain't getting to that level any time soon. About the same problem SSB Melee has (for me, ofc). In my eyes, the tradeoff ain't worth it at all.
Mostly, my scug moves around all smooth like butter. Every once in a while, though, a weird bit of room geometry makes my scug keen for a random lie-down. But, y'know, skill issue.
I've just found this out for myself. I just got a rog ally z1 extreme and wanted to try Rain World on that. When I first started playing it, I was useless. I was easily killed by lizards (even the green one) and moving around was a problem. I persisted and can move around most of the levels like a ninja slug cat now. Not speed run level or anything like that but its very satisfying. Its an amazing game.
Gourmond: I'll need every move!!! Saint: I'll barely touch the ground Rivulet: hardcore parkour! Spear master: more or less basic moves Artificer: *BOOM! BOOM!! BOOM!!! I CANT STOP LISTENING TO THIS TUNE! TUNE!! TUNE!!!*
there's a high chance that downpour will indeed utilize the advanced movement technoques more because it was initially developed by fans who knew of them
This is an incredibly well made video, and I agree that Rain World’s movement system is underutilized, but I will step into the ring and argue that your points about the insanely complex moves still aren’t entirely fair, for one reason; Rain World movement physics are entirely based around procedural animation. The developers obviously intended for a certain amount of movement tech to be available. That becomes clear in intentional actions like rolling, flipping, and sliding. Hell, even more complicated techs like long sliding are pretty easy to discover, but difficult to master, and it’s used to great effect in speed runs already to optimize times and skip certain gaps. However, with procedural animation, the physics are all calculated by the game in real time, INCLUDING the physics of the player character. The majority of these ultra-difficult techs are possible because they exploit the movement engine in very specific ways. The amount of playtesting that was done in order to find these techs is EXTREME. The small team of developers couldn’t have possibly understood the full potential of their movement engine unless they had years of time to playtest the game themselves, which just isn’t realistic to expect of anyone. Messing with janky physics is something most developers never intended, so when you are unable to perform a frame perfect backwards-slide-flip-double-sloppy-toppy-mega-jump to skip a huge ledge, it shouldn’t be something to complain about, because the developers didn’t even know that the ultra-sloppy-toppy move could have possibly ever existed because of how unpredictable AI determined movement can be. Also, I think there are issues with your comparisons with Celeste and TF2: -Celeste has a much simpler movement system, and that simplicity allows for intense complexity, which is much easier to understand and plausible for the developers to understand. Rain World has a much more complex movement system that leads to INSANELY complex movement techs, which means there is a lot more room for error. Also, there’s no way to teleport or enhance your abilities in Rain World by design besides Grapplegrubs or Squidcada, so Celeste wins out on that department in terms of unique skips and exploits. -(This is what I have the most problem with) You admitted that TF2’s ultra-advanced movement is useless in normal play, but justified its existence with the abundance of community made content that utilizes it. That’s not fair to TF2 or Rain World, because suddenly, community content affects the quality of the vanilla game. For one thing, Rain World has half a million downloads while TF2 is the most popular Steam game of all time, so of course there is more community made movement tech stuff for TF2, and for another thing, Rain World DOES have community made content designed around the usage of movement techs: Aether Ridge and Deserted Wasteland are two examples I can think of that have terrain specifically designed to have lots of twists, bends, intersections, and seemingly impassable ledges that can be circumvented with the use of advanced movement tech. Overall, this video is great, I just disagree with some of your points. Thanks for putting out more Rain World content, people deserve to see and play this game!
I agree with all of this. Plus, it sounded like he wanted stuff designed for the humanly impossible movement tech as well ( maybe it was just me who heard it that way), which feels kind of dumb to me as it makes it so the player would have to use bots like the ones in tool assisted speed runs to access those areas/shortcuts. Even if areas are designed with shortcuts in mind that could be used via advanced movement tech, I'd hope it'd be the tech that's actually possible for people to do.
It is. So I think it's wrong to praise the game for its "depth". You might as well praise Counter strike for having Bhop, Surf, etc. Bugs are not part of the game mechanics!
@@Aips. Bunnyhopping originated in Quake as a bug and the developers left it in because it made the game better, spawning a whole subgenre of platform shooters. Bugs, like mutations, can lead to overall improvements, developers just have to know when and how to utilize them.
@@Aips. just because air strafing and bunny hopping are unintentional doesn't mean that they aren't also incredibly deep and fun movement mechanics that would be well designed if they were intentional. people absolutely praise the source engine for it's unintentional mechanics so i don't really know why you would even bring that up unless you don't know much about those games/aren't immersed in their communities. bugs are objectively mechanics in a game. just because they're unintentional doesn't mean that there isn't code telling the game to do exactly what it's doing. why does a mechanic need to be intentional to "count"? why not just make a distinction between intentional and unintentional mechanics like every normal person
7:31 While this is true, its just a faster Survivor BUT taking in consideration Riv has shorter cycles i think it will make the movement way more important in your gameplay punishing bad movement/stalling encounters, making certain regions with shelters far from each other or just platforming-heavy (like underhang or sky islands) way harder specially if there's creatures in your way. so imo its not just a "better" option
Dont worry about a character dominating the any% Each slugcat is a unique campain they start and end in different parts of the map For example the any% for hunter is completly different from survivor's Also downpour will add challenge mode More than 80 challenges a fair bit lf them are built around movement challenges There the devs will be able to teach advanced movement without breaking immersion
The Saint isn't much of an addition, if you look carefully you'll realize his movement tech is already in the game - the underappreciated grappling worm that turns you into a high-quality, flip-doing, gap-crossing, web-slinging ninja and is acquired midgame, I made it through the entire game with it and I don't get why people throw it out after they complete The Leg, it greatly expands the movement capabilities and adds a whole lot of new ones and it was a joy to finess lizards as I scale 90 degree walls and flip around them a-la spiderman
This. After finding the grapple worm in chimney canopy i feel like im missing something without one. I carry one almost always. Maybe the slugcat w the tongue is in recognition of the chemistry of a slug cat+ grapple worm
I think there's an issue that if the game were to require you to use its movement it would have to explicitly tutorialize it which goes against much of the games ethos of having the player learn things organically. I like your idea of introducing optional movement challenges that can benefit a capable player. Also, there's a Rain World "jump map" called Testing Simulation by LimeCultivist if you're interested.
Well I think what I said near the end is important. You don't want to "require" advanced movement, you just want to reward those who understand it. With secrets or shortcuts that reward their knowledge of the system
@@htwo1 Yeah I agree, something like that would be a nice balance that gives you more reasons to do the movement without detracting from that incredible feeling of being thrown in the deep end and asked to swim that the game offers new players.
@@htwo1 kinda like in hollow knight, where there are certain skips that obviously can only be made with prior knowledge of those skips(acid skips for example)
@@ascended313 i went to the cicle bucket boss right after getting my first spell with a nail jump lmao, I guess I should have had wall jumps but nailing the spikes is more fun, although the boss wrecked my ass damn its hard to dodge the sploodge.
@@aarepelaa1142 not really the same, the skip you performed is pretty easy to perform even if you’ve never seen it before. Acid skips wouldn’t even go through 99.9% players’ minds and even the players who do think of the possibility aren’t good enough to perform it.
More complexity to Rain World?! Are you mad? I am actually glad the game doesn't require pole hopping or any other crazy move, I can't even hold a pole properly 😥
Think of unnecessary movemoents like sideproducts. Think of them like stepping on your shoelaces and scrambling back magically before you fall or jumping higher than you expected. Just because someone record it and you are able to replicate the thing doesn't mean that's what you are ment to do. Like toddler babysteps. Like new player. The goal is to move without uselles steps.
I think Rain World's movement system is satisfying because mastering the movement takes time. It actually reminds me of mastering Dirt Rally 2.0. Strange to compare it to an arcade sim driving game, but it's because the controls in DR2.0 are also very simple but very difficult to master.
You are certainly right about a lot of this as a lot of movement either doesn't greatly or at all matter in the end as much as routing, direct movement between locations, and understanding of the game and creatures. A lot of the problem with movement is that it isn't taught to you either making it not useful just because you probably learned it after learning how to do things without it, with combat changing greatly as well Speedruns and scoreruns do often use a lot of interesting movement that isn't as noticeable as the backthrows with a lot of the more interesting variants being very dependent on level design as you said too For the new characters yes less movement will matter for all of them but this also allows a lot more things that wouldn't be as commonly used for other characters for a better variety, having the higher base speed or a tongue both opens up and shuts down a lot of tech, much like using a different weapon in a game but still being the base character (also the someone who showed the devs the fancy movement is Laura who wrote most of the movement guide)
Some of this movement tech can be done very easily even if your not yet used to it if you use the mushroom. Since it slows down time the window of performing that action like a downwards spear throw which is performed via a backflip much easier. The downwards spear throw is possible even without the mushroom however. It just takes practice. Honestly learning how the game works and how moving and even surviving works was part of the fun. Even when i died a lot I was having so much fun playing. If you don't mind the learning curve this game has then by all means play it for yourself if you haven't already.
Rainworld has such insane movement tech that I can, hop twice before falling down a cliff and get eaten by a lizard. To be fair I haven't spent much time. but it feels like Controller inputs. espectially On a switch, doesn't make rainworld happy, haha. I've really wanted to get into it but it feels like the slugcat turns into an actual slug in my hands and loses all cat.
Well that is 100% true. If you want good movement you practically need a keyboard. Which sucks because I use controller too. But yeah, the precision and ideosyncrasy of the movement system means that most players never come across "the good stuff"
@@htwo1 It's true for the super advanced stuff, but... you can absolutely do all the stuff you practically need to on controller. Turn storage, whiplashing, pole-hopping, even extended slides with enough practice. I reckon the majority of movement in Rain World is more fun on controller-- that there's a better kinaesthetic link between you and the character when using one... the biggest/most useful tech thing missing though is fast pole climbing-- though, I'm not sure that it's intentional by the devs, so... eh haha
The joystick imo ruins the precision you can get on keyboard. Everybody that I've seen who complains about the movement being too slippery and hard to control is using a joystick.
i think your whole argument fails for 1 reason. most of the movements you can do in rainworld aren't actually intentional. when it comes down to it, rain world only really has a handful of real move. those advanced techs in the google doc are literally just stringing together the games inbuild systems for results the devs never accounted for. calling them actual movements in the same way as some of celeste's would be like saying a backwards long jump in mario 64 is one of the valid movements.
I don't see it as a flaw that it's underutilized since I can barely pull off regular slides half the time when the situation is tense enough that I'd need to use it but they should definitely use more of it in the expansion. That said I did use it to sequence break kinda sorta in my first run.
Honestly, i think Rain Would got the perfect movement system for itself, because its a game about exploration it is really fun to randomly find movements and spend time trying to recreate them. I think you dont really have to be a speedruner and be perfect, so you can just stick with movements you feel cozy and have your own play style. And if the advansed movement would have necessity it might take out off the fun of exploration for players who dont really like to use advanced and/or precised movements. I d say to leave it to the beautiful moding community this game has, they surely can make maps to fully or partially utilize the movement system.
I think we should take into consideration most of rain world's movement mechanics are a result of the physics of the game interacting with the procedural animation. I doubt the 87 pages of different imput combination were intended by the developer, its just people finding a way to exploit the consistence of the game systems do invent new tricks. The clearly intended tricks have saved me on a lot of different situations while playing and replaying the game, I have taken routes that I thought were impossible when I first began, but like most of the game: they're not mandatory.
I love that new Rain World content is coming up. And you had one of the most in-depth videos on Rain World out there (even referenced by other youtubers) I know I am in for a treat!
Probably downpour wont force player for advenced movement, I think it will be around like normal OG Rain world But I am pretty sure there at least 3-4 Sandbox unlockable requires advenced movement (in original game there is only 1 unlockable that requires advenced movement and thats Just jelly fish unlock)
(Made before watching) I love rainworlds movement because it’s so complex from simple mechanics with so few buttons and some people just don’t learn it I’m watching a RUclipsr named SB play rain world and they are getting so frustrated at it simply because they don’t understand the movement and combat, and they said “either the game is broken or I’m just forcing something out of it that doesn’t exist“ and that’s the best part of rain world you just have to learn the movement and adapt around it I mean rainworld is about learning so it’s sad to see someone get frustrated at something simple because they don’t experiment
(After watching) you’re talking about how the movement is too complex and that the level should be designed to account for it but unlike TF2 and Celeste where TF2 has the rocket and sticky jumpers on purpose because the devs wanted that to be in the game or Celeste with most of their movement known by the devs rainworlds complexity is organic and with this complex movement system it’s basically glitches and you don’t see devs building the world to be purposefully easier to move by using glitches
@@matthewanderson7824 Stuff like flips, slides, pounces is very much intended. The trick that I would especially love to get more use out of is the backflip downward throw. There was only one point where I got any value out of it, getting on that one pole in LttM. Besides that, there's really no point in using it, which is truly tragic considering how badass it looks
I kinda disagree with you but the video very interesting and very well made. You made very good points and conveyed them well, which is a very good skill to have when you're making a video like this. Now onto my argument 1. Celeste (I can't say anything about TF2 since I haven't played it nor watched much gameplay, yet) was very intentionally designed for its movement, as you said. But not everything was intentional. Like clips/glitches used in speed runs. It's hard to give the game credit for something it did not intend in the first place, which is why I felt iffy about you doing the opposite (giving criticism) to the movement of RW. Which, most of the movement you talked about, were unintentional by the Devs. 2. There's a heavy focus on speed running, which isn't bad, but when critiquing a vital part of every player's experience and only ever talking about its use in runs feels odd. If that wasn't your intention, I'm sorry but that's what I got from it. Speedrunning sometimes gets rid of movement a normal player would do in game to save time or in favour of a glitch. So looking to them for what part of the movement is important in general isn't the greatest. They're good for looking for what movement is the fastest and most effective to get to their goal. Which doesn't always match what the average player is going to use. 3. The movement doc is just showing you what's "possible" (just barely sometimes, like with the TAS one you showed). If you looked hard enough, every game probably has a similar thing. Maybe not exactly, but something that adds onto the pre existing movement. Such as the backwards speed boost in WindWaker. Is it possible? Yes. Is it used in runs? Absolutely. Is it important to the average player? No. 4. The idea of having to use basically something that abuses the game's physics (at times) or are just downright glitches to reach an area, even if it's just optional, feels like it would cause more trouble than it's worth in the community. It's a nice idea, I agree with you on that. But as a console player, and someone who plays the game as blind as I can, I can see myself getting frustrated not being able to reach somewhere that looks interesting. Then figuring out later that I need to do a certain trick that's borderline impossible on Switch and that it isn't that worth it and I wasted my time. I can imagine more skilled players being able to go there no problem but find out it's just a pearl and being a bit disappointed. Maybe if it's super out of the way and obscure it would work better? I still like the idea of rewarding skilled players but it's a tricky route. I hope you didn't mind and I didn't come off as rude or anything! Just pointing out some things I thought about but feel free to dispute this with me! I'm always open to just being completely wrong. Again, great video. I do like your what makes good movement categories.
YES! YES TO EVERYTHING YOU SAID! I don't get critiquing the movement system and world for not utilizing the unintended glitches, ESPECIALLY given many of these glitches are essentially impossible for a human to do. If he critiqued certain glitches that got in the way of normal movement, that I'd understand, but it sounds like they are impossible for an actual person to do on purpose, let alone on accident! Why would you make hidden areas/shortcuts that could only be reached using glitches that could only be done by the bots used for tool assisted speedruns?
i have exactly same thoughts as you. also RW's movement is determined by AI in real time, that's why you have to be very precise with your timing to perform a certain trick and that's why there are so many possibilities for different movements; doing the same thing but timing it differently can give entirely different results. and i really don't like the video's focus on speedrunning and "hidden areas" because... Rain World is not a game like that. it's not a speedrun platformer, it's not a quest fetching game, it doesn't have any high rewards for going out of your way. it's a survival ecosystem simulator. all the tricks don't have to have a use in speedruns, but they can have a use in casual game because they allow you to reach certain areas easier or skip some annoying parkour.
Well made though the video is, I feel like it's unfair: Rain World's movement system is perfect, because half of these techs look like things (and as admitted in the video, probably are) not actually intended techs. You say in the video, repeatedly, that a game should make you use those movement techs, either as base gameplay or as a speedrun tactic, but I am willing to bet that 90% of that google docs is stuff that's made through exploits in the physics engine and not actual intended gameplay mechanics. Like, I do not believe for a second that the developers intentionally included an extended jump that requires you to throw an object backwards while sliding and doing a frame perfect jump. Judging Rain World's system based on what could essentially be called bugs or exploits is like saying Mario 64s movement is flawed because people can do hyperspeed wall kicks or backwards long jumps. It's not intended in the game, so *obviously* they aren't going to have sections that require it, in normal gameplay or speedruns.
in RW, slugcat's movement, just like every creature's, is determined by AI in real time. no creature has scripted movement, even the slugcat, except for the basic right, left, up, down, jump, pick, throw. the rest depends a lot on what's your environment, your speed, timing, etc. there's no button for a backflip, there's no button for a slide, you have to figure it out by yourself. and i don't really think all the cool tricks have to have a use in speedruns? they have a use in the base game when you're just enjoying yourself. not everything has to be about completing the game as fast as possible. and most people learn the advanced movements just because they're useful in specific areas and they save a lot of time once learned (like throwing spear downwards at the top of The Wall, or throwing spear upwards to hit Dropwigs, some jumps allow you to skip annoying parkour), or simply because it's fun and they want to. also i know this video is quite old and downpour has been released, but they did exactly what you said; every single new slugcat has an entirely different map. Rivulet has to be fast because during his time the rain is nearly constant and you have to utilze your speed without wasting time. Artificer has a lot places with very high/far jumps because she can double jump. i especially like that they actually gave Saint's campaign a lot of rooms with flat ceilings that you can swing across. there are also a lot of slopes you have to "tongue climb". and Saint's tongue doesn't make anything easier, given his campaign is filled with aggressive enemies (especially during the ending) AND he can't fight back and gets seizures from the snail pop lmao
True, but also designing your game in a way that will benefit a very niche group of people isn't the best use of time. Would be cool but I doubt it will happen, and completely understand why. and thanks for the compliments
No! You cannot tell me to stop waddling just because you think it's not important and can just walk normally, it makes me happy and that's important! >:(
From the lens that Rain World is a speedrunning game, I agree, when only a handful of the moves are used in the WR, there is little need for the other moves. But Rain World is a survival exploration game. Considering the myriad situations a player can get themselves stuck in, thanks to spawns that are difficult to predict and physics based enemy movement, these moves can be more seen as a utility belt that the player can bust out in the correct situation. More mastery is therefore rewarded through a higher survival rate. While I do agree that the movement system is technically not perfect, it's unfair to say that there is a "problem". This is because most of these movement mechanics are emergent from systemic design rather than intentionally put in by the developers. It's also unfair to expect the developers to account for every possible movement option in tutorials spread throughout the game, and unfair on the average player to remember/execute each one for necessary progression through the game. If we were to alternatively remove moves that the slugcat could perform, because they are too niche/difficult this results in less player skill expression and less fun (imo). Therefore I would argue that the pursuit of a perfect movement system for this game would result in a worse game overall. But sure, it's not "perfect".
some funky moves have niche uses, however many of them will never have an actual use, and i doubt putting so much thought in level design only for 0.1% to have an use for a pretty useless move would be pretty unnecesary. I gess the best for that would be for someone to make a custom region unique for movement lovers putting profesional movements into the mandatory path, but adding those to vanilla will make some players feel annoyed by being forced to learn a pixel perfect moves to access something. for example, rain world server has a bunch of challenges for roles, there is 1 which is 100% centered about movement, ppl cares so little about movement and have so little interest the reception on that challenge wasnt very positive at first when ppl thought they were forced to use the profesional moves, fortunely any tools are allowed, so everyone uses a grapple worm or cicada to do it, i have seen only 1 person actually use movement to do that challenge, which was the person who suggested the challenge to begin with. overall, profesional rain world movement is very niche, not even speedrunners use most of the moves, the movement doc is kind of a "hey check this funny movement that has no practical use in vanilla" and the game isnt really centered about that. the farthest rain world movement goes is to skip using a cicada in sky islands if you know medium difficulty moves. The hardest move i have seen having an actual use is to get atop 1 of the sky islands towers by using a funky pole move without needing a mandatory cicada.
I mean this is kind of like saying Quake's movement (rocket jumps, bhopping, etc.) is unimportant... you don't need any movement tech to complete the game on nightmare.
It's nice to know that custom-made maps are a thing in this game. There are probably already some based on these crazy movements that I'm unaware of. Though I'm certain making them is not easy
Well to show off the advanced tech there are a lot of custom made maps that are specifically for showing how something works. Like if you look at 9:32 that sort of map is specifically designed to show off a form of movement. Most custom regions are more geared towards the exploration, survival, and combat though
you can make your own maps with the leveleditor in minutes. there is ppl who even bothered to add decorations to some so they are not just a group of random blocks
- Most players aren't good enough: Well they better get good, cause they bought the game that made videogame critics spontaneously combust. - Tech isn't used: That changes really fast when you're at the top of The Wall with no spears, when the rain is coming, or when you have a short rain timer and every moment counts. Also, tech helps a LOT with dodging and dealing increased damage more often. You don't have to be good at the tech to play the game, avoiding those situations, but it makes the game more replayable as you go back along more difficult routes that are faster, but more dangerous. - Using Rivulet's speed alone every time with no tech is going to get Ruffles rained on. - Saint's tongue can be janky sometimes in corridors, and where there are no ceilings or walls, it's useless and you must rely on normal movement tech. - All clips in this video show how the slugcat can die when they don't use movement tech. All deaths during this video, very little tech was used to dodge or counterattack, and vice versa. - It feels so good to get movement tech right. - i like it
if the player NEEDED to use most of the movement tech, it would be so much harder than it already is, just combining throw boosting with pole hopping to get one of the pearls in the shoreline was hard enough for me. not all games need to be specifically designed for the most sweaty players out there, which imo despite rain world's current difficulty is still not the case
This dude cannot have played rain world vannilla and said that about any% runs being only rivulet or saint cuz that is not how the game works. And you would know that if you knew the dufference between survivor, hunter and monk
Interesting. So would you say that if a large quantity of the expert movements had never been found out, that the rw movement system could've been described as perfect?
I am kind of glad that a lot of these advanced movement techniques are not required to play the game efficiently. First of all - the game is already hard enough for new players, if you include parkour skill into the learning curve it will become even more steep and I don`t think the game needs that, there are challenges and more skill-oriented characters in Downpour if you want that. Secondly, I think this fits the world quite nicely. All the creatures in game have vastly different movement abilities, and they too need to climb different surfaces and levels, so the amount of poles and tunnels is extremely useful to them and to slugcats. Rainworld`s main thing is that the game world doesn not resolve around the player, it lives completely on its own and does not care for your wellbeing whatsoever. To make platforming sections more challenging would mean to account for the player skill level, and would limit the movement abilities of creatures ( or, y`know, make pretty much all of them fly which to me looks a little like the developers shrugging and giving up, and I can`t blame them here). I am currently in the Chimney Canopy, and there is one one vertical room you need to go through to start climbing the tower, and I`ve lost amount of times lizards literally rained down on me off-screen there, because there`s also a lot of vultures and scared liards are bad at climbing. So yeah, I am glad that advanced parkour is not really utilised in game world. Also it makes mastering these moves feel like breaking the game a little.
I'm sure that 90% of the movement in rainworld are unintentional emergent properties of the game engine's imperfections. Literally just glitches, like wave dashing in smash. I doubt any of the useless or impossible ones were even intended to exist. Like who the fuck would program in jump storage?
I don’t think a movement system needs to be “important” to be perfect. It seems more like the movement system isn’t perfect in your eyes because you don’t see value in learning the types of tech that are too impractical for speedrunning or a casual playthrough. But there’s still value in learning the deepest parts of the movement system just for the sake of it if that’s someone’s cup of tea. The way I see it, Rain World’s movement system *is* perfect because it provides all the depth needed regardless of what approach you take: * You barely need any advanced techniques at all for a casual playthrough * You only need a handful of advanced techniques to successfully speedrun, * Everything beyond that is for the people who like to experiment and learn in the lab. In short, it’s perfectly fine for things to just be neat curiosities that don’t have practical applications Besides, the deeper the tech goes, the more expressive play can become for those interested in learning!
Only thing shit about it imo is that there's no grab button. Pointing up to grab is something that will never be good. I hated that downpour didn't correct it, yes, correct it. Its a design mistake. The developers thought they were being smart but it's just pure inevitably inefficient bs. Oh and also the forced stop on ledges like you can do in minecraft, I wouldn't mind it if all the ledges were crystal clear but we all know they're not. So many deaths because ledges are simply shorter than its actual design and the corrections is so simple...I can 100% tell u if those 2 mechanics were in the game when it launched the reviews would be waaaaaay better. Gamers should just stop mistaking bad design with fair difficulty.
You brought up some points about the system I didn't ever consider before, a breath of fresh air is super welcome! Even as someone who went through the whole doc and spent hours training some moves, the 'important' box does truly remain unchecked for like 98% of the tech. I really hope they address it because it's genuinely a core part of the game when you're invested in it, almost like a sandbox. Great video too! :)
Just wanted to say that the movement Doc doesn't even cover all the movement yet, such as crouch flips and multiple varieties of extended slide pounce flips. Both of them have specific uses, such as skipping areas that normally need a spear lodged into a wall
When I was looking through that movement document, it strangely reminded me of Hoompty's videos about all the weird tricks you can pull off with League of Legends champions. My reaction to both of these things were pretty much: "Wow that's extremely cool, but... I'm never going to see this actually getting used, am I?" As someone who doesn't really play 2D platformers outside of Rain World (except that one weird game with the cloning guy on Xbox that I've finished around 10 years ago), it was pretty interesting to hear you analyzing all the problems with this. I honestly don't think this really has a negative impact on a game's overall quality, it just simply doesn't really do anything for the actual experience that 99% of players will have. The only real purpose of the advanced movement tech is to allow players to show off, and to allow developers to put in future Easter eggs that require you to utilize them (I'd argue the jellyfish unlock in Shoreline would count here, even though you can bring in a mushroom or a squidcada to negate the difficulty). Which I'd argue is enough to justify them, especially because you can still have moments where you accidentally pull an advanced trick off, which fills me with a lovely surge of emotions (also, the Easter egg part can't even exist in League, so yeah).
Check out Aether Ridge - it's probably designed the way you're imagining. It has several 'one-way' areas, where the geometry of the room makes it 'impossible' to travel in the unintended direction... but only if you're using basic movement. With advanced movement, you can almost travel anywhere you want, as well as find several secrets. There are also some colored pearls placed in locations where it feels like there's no intended way to reach them, which forces players to use the breadth of their movement knowledge to accomplish something that otherwise feels impossible. And colored pearls in vanilla have the potential for the slightest flex in movement abilities. I think of the red pearl in Farm Arrays in the giant pipe room, where there's a jump that's impossible to make with normal movement tech. You can get there by bringing a squidcada over, or you could use a number of different movement tech options. And I think using movement tech to solve open-ended platforming problems is the most Rain World-y way of doing movement. Designing it like a platformer with specific jumps being necessary would feel out of place in a world that needs to feel like it wasn't built for a slugcat, but having a ledge that's just too high to reach that you have to find your own way up fits in the procedural style of the rest of the gameplay. ...though any% doesn't use too much movement tech as it's almost entirely moving downwards. A speedrun like pebbles% uses much more, same with 100%. I think the real shame is that guardian skip is possible, which makes any% a bit boring, imo.
I think making any of the advanced tech necessary to do anything in the game is pretty bad even if its just to reach a scavenger den or an unlock. Itd just be screwing console players over.
Well that's the trick, you don't make it necessary, you just reward those who do know how to do it. I dont think a den of scav weapons is a big deal to hold off from someone, or maybe a lore pearl or something
yeah I agree with this. Up to a certain point it's still fair, but there's certain movements which are extremely difficult on a controller versus a keyboard. It would just end up causing frustration for console players imo, and not the kind that can be managed with practice and patience
@@htwo1 but that misses the point of RW. it's not a quest game or game with high rewards. pearls are already challenging to find, but it's the point that ANYONE can find them if they want to know the lore, even if they're not the greatest at parkour. scavengers' caves are hidden anyway, why would they be additionally obscured by impossible areas? RW is about survival and exploration, and maybe lore if you're up to run after the pearls and Echos, but it's not about getting physically rewarded. your reward is that you survived. also idc if it would be optional, it's never nice to exclude a part of your players only because a certain movement to reach certain area is impossible on console. if some area is impossible to reach because of the controls you use, it wouldn't be a good game
Well, I disagree with the first point made, that all movement elements must be vital for success in order for the movement system to be good. Rainworld is the type of game that doesn't really have a correct way to play. You can spend hours just surviving in the area you spawn in. I appreciate the complexity of the game even tho I myself am unlikely to use many of the mechanics in it's movement system.
Respectfully sir, I disagree with the idea that 'most of the movement is unnecessary' is a bad thing. After all, that is how most skills work in real life. For example, when learning to sew, you will find many videos and resources showing many (MANY) types of stitches, advertising that you must learn all of them. In reality, I only use a few the majority of the time. When learning how to cook, people will tell you to get a knife block with, like, 20 or more different kinds of knives in it. I rarely use more than a chef's knife. The rest are unnecessary. Rain World has many movement options, yes, but only a few are nessesary. Similar to sewing and cooking, and (from what I've been told), playing an instrument, you only need to learn a few options to do decently well. This lowers the skill floor for new players, and raises the skill ceiling for veterans, because there are so many new things to learn to up your skill that extra little bit. This is also how Olympic athletes win the gold- they start out learning the basics, and make skill gains quickly at first. Over time, skill progress slows to a crawl. But that crawl edges them out to be the best of the best. To put it another way, there is a Ted talk about the 20 Hour Rule (where most of this comment comes from). It takes 20 hours of deliberate practice to learn a new skill decently well. It takes 10,000 hours to become the best of the best. Rain world simulates this excellently.
I was making a game for a moment and there was bugs in the movement system that were helping. And since rainworld's animation is procedural, it surely has to have bugs in the movement system that make you go fast.
I use a lot of advanced moves, many of them are useful in very specified areas, but I feel a lot of satisfaction when I can perform it and move smoother (pole jumping, advanced slide, slide into the pipe, den jump etc.).
I know this is an old video, but as someone who loves the game to death, has put 250 hours into it, and has played both pre and post Downpour, I have to agree with the points in this video. A lot of the stuff in the movement tech doc, besides definitely not being intended by the devs, never really sees practical use. Heck, before Downpour, I can’t recall one instance where I was forced to do things like a downthrow besides, like, The Wall gate into Five Pebbles. I literally felt so fricking surprised and excited when I had to use a downthrow to reach a random vista in Expedition mode- I have gotten down things like slidepounce-rollpounce comboes to move relatively quickly, but…even before I knew that stuff I was doing pretty decently at just surviving. The movement system is very satisfying once you learn it, but yeah, a lot of stuff does not get used enough.
there are some shortcuts that are already in the game like wall - five pebbles or wall - much else of exterior, however your point is still taken as these are few and far between with the two aforementioned being the only ones i know of.
I would like to see a tutorial that is split into 3 or 4 parts. Part 1: Intendet movents. Part 2: Tricks that are based on that movement and are usefull in the game. Part 3: All the other stuff that is most likely only usefull for speedruns. Part 4 (or 3.1): Everything beyond speedruns.
Yep, You explore and discover the movement possibilities, pickup the ones you find uses, the same as you explore the world, not made as a fast paced speedrun, even if you glitch your way to go fast, this is at its core a cinematic platformer where you explore and take your time
Yeah, most movement techs were definitely intended, most couldn't just be improvised, maybe some physics-based ones could, but the back-flip for example, is definitely intended
I personally feel that the reason the movement can get as advanced as it can is so that long time players will be rewarded for the time and effort they put into mastering the game. While new players don't get immediately get forced out (the game is hard enough as it is) And what I mean by this is that it is not needed at all for the old players to use the advanced movement systems, the game would be playable just not impossible for the new players to play. it is just expanded movement for the people who want to learn to do it.
each character already has their own speedrun category, the maps from downpour are heavily contributed to by popular modders within the community (so movement tech will def be used) and the game does care about its speedrunning community, in the upcoming remix update they added toggles to some fixed exploits speedrunners used jus so they could keep using them if they wanted to
I wouldn't worry about a character dominating the any% category. Since they're so different, we're probably going to have different speedrun categories for each character. It'd be ridiculous to not
That's the thing, they already do...so yeah, I don't get what he's worried about.
yeah, there is
always was, cause the campgain was different.
this completely glances over what i love most about RW's movement system: how clumsy it feels at first, and now satisfying it is, when you get a hang of it, and you start moving fluidly.
perfectly said
Coming in late, but I would consider that a problem to be honest. Sure, it's satisfying when you get it, but unless you're actively training to smooth out every movement tech, you ain't getting to that level any time soon. About the same problem SSB Melee has (for me, ofc). In my eyes, the tradeoff ain't worth it at all.
Mostly, my scug moves around all smooth like butter. Every once in a while, though, a weird bit of room geometry makes my scug keen for a random lie-down. But, y'know, skill issue.
I've just found this out for myself. I just got a rog ally z1 extreme and wanted to try Rain World on that. When I first started playing it, I was useless. I was easily killed by lizards (even the green one) and moving around was a problem. I persisted and can move around most of the levels like a ninja slug cat now. Not speed run level or anything like that but its very satisfying. Its an amazing game.
ahh yes just make the game easy because it takes to long to learn to move fluidly :)@@TX2015
Gourmond: I'll need every move!!!
Saint: I'll barely touch the ground
Rivulet: hardcore parkour!
Spear master: more or less basic moves
Artificer: *BOOM! BOOM!! BOOM!!! I CANT STOP LISTENING TO THIS TUNE! TUNE!! TUNE!!!*
The artificer line brought me back into 2017. Thank you
*ITS GONNA MAKE MY BRAIN GO BOOM BOOM BOOM*
The exact goddamn opposite
Spear master in reality: L A D D E R
@@giozeusk_8074 I do what I wanna, move aside mama
there's a high chance that downpour will indeed utilize the advanced movement technoques more because it was initially developed by fans who knew of them
also you forgot to mention that the artificier also has good movement options in the form of double & rocket jumps
@@verkhvo laughs in saint
@@NeovenatorGuy laughs in rivulet
@@gonko638Laughs in gourmand slides
Laughs in gourmand rolls
This is an incredibly well made video, and I agree that Rain World’s movement system is underutilized, but I will step into the ring and argue that your points about the insanely complex moves still aren’t entirely fair, for one reason; Rain World movement physics are entirely based around procedural animation.
The developers obviously intended for a certain amount of movement tech to be available. That becomes clear in intentional actions like rolling, flipping, and sliding. Hell, even more complicated techs like long sliding are pretty easy to discover, but difficult to master, and it’s used to great effect in speed runs already to optimize times and skip certain gaps.
However, with procedural animation, the physics are all calculated by the game in real time, INCLUDING the physics of the player character. The majority of these ultra-difficult techs are possible because they exploit the movement engine in very specific ways.
The amount of playtesting that was done in order to find these techs is EXTREME. The small team of developers couldn’t have possibly understood the full potential of their movement engine unless they had years of time to playtest the game themselves, which just isn’t realistic to expect of anyone. Messing with janky physics is something most developers never intended, so when you are unable to perform a frame perfect backwards-slide-flip-double-sloppy-toppy-mega-jump to skip a huge ledge, it shouldn’t be something to complain about, because the developers didn’t even know that the ultra-sloppy-toppy move could have possibly ever existed because of how unpredictable AI determined movement can be.
Also, I think there are issues with your comparisons with Celeste and TF2:
-Celeste has a much simpler movement system, and that simplicity allows for intense complexity, which is much easier to understand and plausible for the developers to understand. Rain World has a much more complex movement system that leads to INSANELY complex movement techs, which means there is a lot more room for error. Also, there’s no way to teleport or enhance your abilities in Rain World by design besides Grapplegrubs or Squidcada, so Celeste wins out on that department in terms of unique skips and exploits.
-(This is what I have the most problem with) You admitted that TF2’s ultra-advanced movement is useless in normal play, but justified its existence with the abundance of community made content that utilizes it. That’s not fair to TF2 or Rain World, because suddenly, community content affects the quality of the vanilla game. For one thing, Rain World has half a million downloads while TF2 is the most popular Steam game of all time, so of course there is more community made movement tech stuff for TF2, and for another thing, Rain World DOES have community made content designed around the usage of movement techs: Aether Ridge and Deserted Wasteland are two examples I can think of that have terrain specifically designed to have lots of twists, bends, intersections, and seemingly impassable ledges that can be circumvented with the use of advanced movement tech.
Overall, this video is great, I just disagree with some of your points. Thanks for putting out more Rain World content, people deserve to see and play this game!
Exactly. Most of these movements were not made deliberately and are just products of RW's procedural animation.
Holy… you didn’t need to write a 5 paragraph essay
For an A+ anyway
I agree with all of this. Plus, it sounded like he wanted stuff designed for the humanly impossible movement tech as well ( maybe it was just me who heard it that way), which feels kind of dumb to me as it makes it so the player would have to use bots like the ones in tool assisted speed runs to access those areas/shortcuts. Even if areas are designed with shortcuts in mind that could be used via advanced movement tech, I'd hope it'd be the tech that's actually possible for people to do.
Pretty sure most of rainworlds movement tech comes from glitches and/or peculiarities in its procedural animation system
It is. So I think it's wrong to praise the game for its "depth". You might as well praise Counter strike for having Bhop, Surf, etc. Bugs are not part of the game mechanics!
@@Aips. Bunnyhopping originated in Quake as a bug and the developers left it in because it made the game better, spawning a whole subgenre of platform shooters. Bugs, like mutations, can lead to overall improvements, developers just have to know when and how to utilize them.
Exactly. This video is dumb.
@@Aips. just because air strafing and bunny hopping are unintentional doesn't mean that they aren't also incredibly deep and fun movement mechanics that would be well designed if they were intentional. people absolutely praise the source engine for it's unintentional mechanics so i don't really know why you would even bring that up unless you don't know much about those games/aren't immersed in their communities. bugs are objectively mechanics in a game. just because they're unintentional doesn't mean that there isn't code telling the game to do exactly what it's doing. why does a mechanic need to be intentional to "count"? why not just make a distinction between intentional and unintentional mechanics like every normal person
7:31 While this is true, its just a faster Survivor BUT taking in consideration Riv has shorter cycles i think it will make the movement way more important in your gameplay
punishing bad movement/stalling encounters, making certain regions with shelters far from each other or just platforming-heavy (like underhang or sky islands) way harder specially if there's creatures in your way.
so imo its not just a "better" option
It is when your goal is to go faster anyway, but someone else in the comments pointed out that it will likely be a different category.
Dont worry about a character dominating the any%
Each slugcat is a unique campain they start and end in different parts of the map
For example the any% for hunter is completly different from survivor's
Also downpour will add challenge mode
More than 80 challenges a fair bit lf them are built around movement challenges
There the devs will be able to teach advanced movement without breaking immersion
The Saint isn't much of an addition, if you look carefully you'll realize his movement tech is already in the game - the underappreciated grappling worm that turns you into a high-quality, flip-doing, gap-crossing, web-slinging ninja and is acquired midgame, I made it through the entire game with it and I don't get why people throw it out after they complete The Leg, it greatly expands the movement capabilities and adds a whole lot of new ones and it was a joy to finess lizards as I scale 90 degree walls and flip around them a-la spiderman
This. After finding the grapple worm in chimney canopy i feel like im missing something without one. I carry one almost always. Maybe the slugcat w the tongue is in recognition of the chemistry of a slug cat+ grapple worm
@@lyricday562 Feels so good to see that I am not the only grapple worm enjoyer
I also treat a grapple worm as a family heirloom. Makes a lot of challenges a breeze, though it does cut down on the need for fancy techniques!
I think there's an issue that if the game were to require you to use its movement it would have to explicitly tutorialize it which goes against much of the games ethos of having the player learn things organically. I like your idea of introducing optional movement challenges that can benefit a capable player. Also, there's a Rain World "jump map" called Testing Simulation by LimeCultivist if you're interested.
Well I think what I said near the end is important. You don't want to "require" advanced movement, you just want to reward those who understand it. With secrets or shortcuts that reward their knowledge of the system
@@htwo1 Yeah I agree, something like that would be a nice balance that gives you more reasons to do the movement without detracting from that incredible feeling of being thrown in the deep end and asked to swim that the game offers new players.
@@htwo1 kinda like in hollow knight, where there are certain skips that obviously can only be made with prior knowledge of those skips(acid skips for example)
@@ascended313 i went to the cicle bucket boss right after getting my first spell with a nail jump lmao, I guess I should have had wall jumps but nailing the spikes is more fun, although the boss wrecked my ass damn its hard to dodge the sploodge.
@@aarepelaa1142 not really the same, the skip you performed is pretty easy to perform even if you’ve never seen it before. Acid skips wouldn’t even go through 99.9% players’ minds and even the players who do think of the possibility aren’t good enough to perform it.
More complexity to Rain World?! Are you mad? I am actually glad the game doesn't require pole hopping or any other crazy move, I can't even hold a pole properly 😥
Think of unnecessary movemoents like sideproducts. Think of them like stepping on your shoelaces and scrambling back magically before you fall or jumping higher than you expected.
Just because someone record it and you are able to replicate the thing doesn't mean that's what you are ment to do.
Like toddler babysteps. Like new player.
The goal is to move without uselles steps.
I think Rain World's movement system is satisfying because mastering the movement takes time. It actually reminds me of mastering Dirt Rally 2.0. Strange to compare it to an arcade sim driving game, but it's because the controls in DR2.0 are also very simple but very difficult to master.
You are certainly right about a lot of this as a lot of movement either doesn't greatly or at all matter in the end as much as routing, direct movement between locations, and understanding of the game and creatures. A lot of the problem with movement is that it isn't taught to you either making it not useful just because you probably learned it after learning how to do things without it, with combat changing greatly as well
Speedruns and scoreruns do often use a lot of interesting movement that isn't as noticeable as the backthrows with a lot of the more interesting variants being very dependent on level design as you said too
For the new characters yes less movement will matter for all of them but this also allows a lot more things that wouldn't be as commonly used for other characters for a better variety, having the higher base speed or a tongue both opens up and shuts down a lot of tech, much like using a different weapon in a game but still being the base character
(also the someone who showed the devs the fancy movement is Laura who wrote most of the movement guide)
Common Laura W
When the W is Common!
Some of this movement tech can be done very easily even if your not yet used to it if you use the mushroom.
Since it slows down time the window of performing that action like a downwards spear throw which is performed via a backflip much easier. The downwards spear throw is possible even without the mushroom however. It just takes practice.
Honestly learning how the game works and how moving and even surviving works was part of the fun.
Even when i died a lot I was having so much fun playing.
If you don't mind the learning curve this game has then by all means play it for yourself if you haven't already.
Rainworld has such insane movement tech that I can,
hop twice before falling down a cliff and get eaten by a lizard.
To be fair I haven't spent much time. but it feels like Controller inputs. espectially On a switch, doesn't make rainworld happy, haha. I've really wanted to get into it but it feels like the slugcat turns into an actual slug in my hands and loses all cat.
Well that is 100% true. If you want good movement you practically need a keyboard. Which sucks because I use controller too. But yeah, the precision and ideosyncrasy of the movement system means that most players never come across "the good stuff"
@@htwo1 It's true for the super advanced stuff, but... you can absolutely do all the stuff you practically need to on controller. Turn storage, whiplashing, pole-hopping, even extended slides with enough practice. I reckon the majority of movement in Rain World is more fun on controller-- that there's a better kinaesthetic link between you and the character when using one... the biggest/most useful tech thing missing though is fast pole climbing-- though, I'm not sure that it's intentional by the devs, so... eh haha
The joystick imo ruins the precision you can get on keyboard. Everybody that I've seen who complains about the movement being too slippery and hard to control is using a joystick.
i think your whole argument fails for 1 reason. most of the movements you can do in rainworld aren't actually intentional. when it comes down to it, rain world only really has a handful of real move. those advanced techs in the google doc are literally just stringing together the games inbuild systems for results the devs never accounted for. calling them actual movements in the same way as some of celeste's would be like saying a backwards long jump in mario 64 is one of the valid movements.
I don't see it as a flaw that it's underutilized since I can barely pull off regular slides half the time when the situation is tense enough that I'd need to use it but they should definitely use more of it in the expansion. That said I did use it to sequence break kinda sorta in my first run.
I'm watching this 1 year later and the google docs document has been updated to 164 pages lol
Making movement more important would make rain world harder than it already is Xd
Honestly, i think Rain Would got the perfect movement system for itself, because its a game about exploration it is really fun to randomly find movements and spend time trying to recreate them.
I think you dont really have to be a speedruner and be perfect, so you can just stick with movements you feel cozy and have your own play style.
And if the advansed movement would have necessity it might take out off the fun of exploration for players who dont really like to use advanced and/or precised movements.
I d say to leave it to the beautiful moding community this game has, they surely can make maps to fully or partially utilize the movement system.
inv has entered the chat to counter your points
That doesn't effect the movement, that effects the gameplay design itself.
I think we should take into consideration most of rain world's movement mechanics are a result of the physics of the game interacting with the procedural animation. I doubt the 87 pages of different imput combination were intended by the developer, its just people finding a way to exploit the consistence of the game systems do invent new tricks. The clearly intended tricks have saved me on a lot of different situations while playing and replaying the game, I have taken routes that I thought were impossible when I first began, but like most of the game: they're not mandatory.
The frame perfect moves weren't carefully designed, thought out pieces of tech, they were consequences of how the movement system was made.
I love that new Rain World content is coming up. And you had one of the most in-depth videos on Rain World out there (even referenced by other youtubers)
I know I am in for a treat!
adding risk of rain music into rain world video
something tells me this guy likes rain
I live in England, what choice do I have?
@@htwo1 The rain gave him Stockholm syndrome
@@matthewanderson7824 Right now in britain it's blisteringly hot so I'd take some rain right now. Put me back in the cell
@@htwo1 leaving it
I think most of the tech comes from the AI generated animation system, making the just worthless or frame perfect ones are unintended.
Probably downpour wont force player for advenced movement, I think it will be around like normal OG Rain world
But I am pretty sure there at least 3-4 Sandbox unlockable requires advenced movement
(in original game there is only 1 unlockable that requires advenced movement and thats Just jelly fish unlock)
Wonder how they actually intended it to be unlocked, like that throw boost with a pole hop is pretty damn hard.
@@aarepelaa1142 I used roll with a squidcada
@@aarepelaa1142mushrooms, squidcadas, just a simple double throwboost lets you reach the other side
@@dinoaurus1 i once used a grenade to get there as well.
(Made before watching) I love rainworlds movement because it’s so complex from simple mechanics with so few buttons and some people just don’t learn it I’m watching a RUclipsr named SB play rain world and they are getting so frustrated at it simply because they don’t understand the movement and combat, and they said “either the game is broken or I’m just forcing something out of it that doesn’t exist“ and that’s the best part of rain world you just have to learn the movement and adapt around it I mean rainworld is about learning so it’s sad to see someone get frustrated at something simple because they don’t experiment
(After watching) you’re talking about how the movement is too complex and that the level should be designed to account for it but unlike TF2 and Celeste where TF2 has the rocket and sticky jumpers on purpose because the devs wanted that to be in the game or Celeste with most of their movement known by the devs rainworlds complexity is organic and with this complex movement system it’s basically glitches and you don’t see devs building the world to be purposefully easier to move by using glitches
At this point, I want to see SB’s reaction to an explanation of Rain Worlds combat and movement, just so she can see how much she missed.
@@matthewanderson7824 Stuff like flips, slides, pounces is very much intended. The trick that I would especially love to get more use out of is the backflip downward throw. There was only one point where I got any value out of it, getting on that one pole in LttM. Besides that, there's really no point in using it, which is truly tragic considering how badass it looks
Oh yeah weren't they the one that got stuck in garbage wastes for several episodes because they were trying to get into a room that leads nowhere
@@Zandofle yeah, kinda funny she didn't read the comments to check out some movement and combat stuffs.
I kinda disagree with you but the video very interesting and very well made. You made very good points and conveyed them well, which is a very good skill to have when you're making a video like this.
Now onto my argument
1. Celeste (I can't say anything about TF2 since I haven't played it nor watched much gameplay, yet) was very intentionally designed for its movement, as you said. But not everything was intentional. Like clips/glitches used in speed runs. It's hard to give the game credit for something it did not intend in the first place, which is why I felt iffy about you doing the opposite (giving criticism) to the movement of RW. Which, most of the movement you talked about, were unintentional by the Devs.
2. There's a heavy focus on speed running, which isn't bad, but when critiquing a vital part of every player's experience and only ever talking about its use in runs feels odd. If that wasn't your intention, I'm sorry but that's what I got from it. Speedrunning sometimes gets rid of movement a normal player would do in game to save time or in favour of a glitch. So looking to them for what part of the movement is important in general isn't the greatest. They're good for looking for what movement is the fastest and most effective to get to their goal. Which doesn't always match what the average player is going to use.
3. The movement doc is just showing you what's "possible" (just barely sometimes, like with the TAS one you showed). If you looked hard enough, every game probably has a similar thing. Maybe not exactly, but something that adds onto the pre existing movement. Such as the backwards speed boost in WindWaker. Is it possible? Yes. Is it used in runs? Absolutely. Is it important to the average player? No.
4. The idea of having to use basically something that abuses the game's physics (at times) or are just downright glitches to reach an area, even if it's just optional, feels like it would cause more trouble than it's worth in the community. It's a nice idea, I agree with you on that. But as a console player, and someone who plays the game as blind as I can, I can see myself getting frustrated not being able to reach somewhere that looks interesting. Then figuring out later that I need to do a certain trick that's borderline impossible on Switch and that it isn't that worth it and I wasted my time. I can imagine more skilled players being able to go there no problem but find out it's just a pearl and being a bit disappointed. Maybe if it's super out of the way and obscure it would work better? I still like the idea of rewarding skilled players but it's a tricky route.
I hope you didn't mind and I didn't come off as rude or anything! Just pointing out some things I thought about but feel free to dispute this with me! I'm always open to just being completely wrong.
Again, great video. I do like your what makes good movement categories.
YES! YES TO EVERYTHING YOU SAID! I don't get critiquing the movement system and world for not utilizing the unintended glitches, ESPECIALLY given many of these glitches are essentially impossible for a human to do. If he critiqued certain glitches that got in the way of normal movement, that I'd understand, but it sounds like they are impossible for an actual person to do on purpose, let alone on accident! Why would you make hidden areas/shortcuts that could only be reached using glitches that could only be done by the bots used for tool assisted speedruns?
i have exactly same thoughts as you. also RW's movement is determined by AI in real time, that's why you have to be very precise with your timing to perform a certain trick and that's why there are so many possibilities for different movements; doing the same thing but timing it differently can give entirely different results. and i really don't like the video's focus on speedrunning and "hidden areas" because... Rain World is not a game like that. it's not a speedrun platformer, it's not a quest fetching game, it doesn't have any high rewards for going out of your way. it's a survival ecosystem simulator. all the tricks don't have to have a use in speedruns, but they can have a use in casual game because they allow you to reach certain areas easier or skip some annoying parkour.
Well made though the video is, I feel like it's unfair: Rain World's movement system is perfect, because half of these techs look like things (and as admitted in the video, probably are) not actually intended techs. You say in the video, repeatedly, that a game should make you use those movement techs, either as base gameplay or as a speedrun tactic, but I am willing to bet that 90% of that google docs is stuff that's made through exploits in the physics engine and not actual intended gameplay mechanics. Like, I do not believe for a second that the developers intentionally included an extended jump that requires you to throw an object backwards while sliding and doing a frame perfect jump.
Judging Rain World's system based on what could essentially be called bugs or exploits is like saying Mario 64s movement is flawed because people can do hyperspeed wall kicks or backwards long jumps. It's not intended in the game, so *obviously* they aren't going to have sections that require it, in normal gameplay or speedruns.
in RW, slugcat's movement, just like every creature's, is determined by AI in real time. no creature has scripted movement, even the slugcat, except for the basic right, left, up, down, jump, pick, throw. the rest depends a lot on what's your environment, your speed, timing, etc. there's no button for a backflip, there's no button for a slide, you have to figure it out by yourself.
and i don't really think all the cool tricks have to have a use in speedruns? they have a use in the base game when you're just enjoying yourself. not everything has to be about completing the game as fast as possible. and most people learn the advanced movements just because they're useful in specific areas and they save a lot of time once learned (like throwing spear downwards at the top of The Wall, or throwing spear upwards to hit Dropwigs, some jumps allow you to skip annoying parkour), or simply because it's fun and they want to.
also i know this video is quite old and downpour has been released, but they did exactly what you said; every single new slugcat has an entirely different map. Rivulet has to be fast because during his time the rain is nearly constant and you have to utilze your speed without wasting time. Artificer has a lot places with very high/far jumps because she can double jump. i especially like that they actually gave Saint's campaign a lot of rooms with flat ceilings that you can swing across. there are also a lot of slopes you have to "tongue climb". and Saint's tongue doesn't make anything easier, given his campaign is filled with aggressive enemies (especially during the ending) AND he can't fight back and gets seizures from the snail pop lmao
True, but also designing your game in a way that will benefit a very niche group of people isn't the best use of time. Would be cool but I doubt it will happen, and completely understand why.
and thanks for the compliments
The fast fall is useful for gourmand as it makes him gains more speed when falling on enemies
turned stored extended slide flip bounces my beloved
gourmand hugely encourages use of the movement system, at least simple use of it
I wouldn't worry about the saint being the easiest to speedrun.......
Oh, yeah, let's just go meet Five Pebbles...
Oh...
Oh..............
The only useful tech that I figured out myself is that you can backflip > roll > roll jump
In my defense i use the artificer double jump to throw granades upwards into vultures...
Rivulet makes tech useful because of the short cycles
Rivulet makes tech useless because you just backflip and are suddenly higher than you would be with a frame perfect tech
No! You cannot tell me to stop waddling just because you think it's not important and can just walk normally, it makes me happy and that's important! >:(
From the lens that Rain World is a speedrunning game, I agree, when only a handful of the moves are used in the WR, there is little need for the other moves. But Rain World is a survival exploration game. Considering the myriad situations a player can get themselves stuck in, thanks to spawns that are difficult to predict and physics based enemy movement, these moves can be more seen as a utility belt that the player can bust out in the correct situation. More mastery is therefore rewarded through a higher survival rate.
While I do agree that the movement system is technically not perfect, it's unfair to say that there is a "problem". This is because most of these movement mechanics are emergent from systemic design rather than intentionally put in by the developers. It's also unfair to expect the developers to account for every possible movement option in tutorials spread throughout the game, and unfair on the average player to remember/execute each one for necessary progression through the game. If we were to alternatively remove moves that the slugcat could perform, because they are too niche/difficult this results in less player skill expression and less fun (imo). Therefore I would argue that the pursuit of a perfect movement system for this game would result in a worse game overall.
But sure, it's not "perfect".
bro if they made the levels complete with the advanced tec, i would not survive, i'd be stuck in Outskirts for all eternity if that were the case-
some funky moves have niche uses, however many of them will never have an actual use, and i doubt putting so much thought in level design only for 0.1% to have an use for a pretty useless move would be pretty unnecesary.
I gess the best for that would be for someone to make a custom region unique for movement lovers putting profesional movements into the mandatory path, but adding those to vanilla will make some players feel annoyed by being forced to learn a pixel perfect moves to access something.
for example, rain world server has a bunch of challenges for roles, there is 1 which is 100% centered about movement, ppl cares so little about movement and have so little interest the reception on that challenge wasnt very positive at first when ppl thought they were forced to use the profesional moves, fortunely any tools are allowed, so everyone uses a grapple worm or cicada to do it, i have seen only 1 person actually use movement to do that challenge, which was the person who suggested the challenge to begin with.
overall, profesional rain world movement is very niche, not even speedrunners use most of the moves, the movement doc is kind of a "hey check this funny movement that has no practical use in vanilla" and the game isnt really centered about that.
the farthest rain world movement goes is to skip using a cicada in sky islands if you know medium difficulty moves.
The hardest move i have seen having an actual use is to get atop 1 of the sky islands towers by using a funky pole move without needing a mandatory cicada.
you kinda miss that most of movment is unintentional exploits or combintion of 3 diffrent move techs
I mean this is kind of like saying Quake's movement (rocket jumps, bhopping, etc.) is unimportant... you don't need any movement tech to complete the game on nightmare.
If there's a Rain World video, there's my likw!
It's nice to know that custom-made maps are a thing in this game. There are probably already some based on these crazy movements that I'm unaware of. Though I'm certain making them is not easy
Well to show off the advanced tech there are a lot of custom made maps that are specifically for showing how something works. Like if you look at 9:32 that sort of map is specifically designed to show off a form of movement. Most custom regions are more geared towards the exploration, survival, and combat though
you can make your own maps with the leveleditor in minutes.
there is ppl who even bothered to add decorations to some so they are not just a group of random blocks
Someone already made a parkour tutorial map about some of the complex movement
ye, a bunch, but not much past just blocks
- Most players aren't good enough: Well they better get good, cause they bought the game that made videogame critics spontaneously combust.
- Tech isn't used: That changes really fast when you're at the top of The Wall with no spears, when the rain is coming, or when you have a short rain timer and every moment counts. Also, tech helps a LOT with dodging and dealing increased damage more often. You don't have to be good at the tech to play the game, avoiding those situations, but it makes the game more replayable as you go back along more difficult routes that are faster, but more dangerous.
- Using Rivulet's speed alone every time with no tech is going to get Ruffles rained on.
- Saint's tongue can be janky sometimes in corridors, and where there are no ceilings or walls, it's useless and you must rely on normal movement tech.
- All clips in this video show how the slugcat can die when they don't use movement tech. All deaths during this video, very little tech was used to dodge or counterattack, and vice versa.
- It feels so good to get movement tech right.
- i like it
I think most of advanced movement techs are not intended, and they are just glitches in procedural animation.
The only time it is all used is the jump at the end of the wall, which can be done in many ways. Though there is a place for every move in Rain world
Rain world is a simulation, you are just living, not playing.
if the player NEEDED to use most of the movement tech, it would be so much harder than it already is, just combining throw boosting with pole hopping to get one of the pearls in the shoreline was hard enough for me. not all games need to be specifically designed for the most sweaty players out there, which imo despite rain world's current difficulty is still not the case
Oh man, you are so underrated, You deserve a lot more subscribers for your informative videos regarding games
@Blackout oh believe you me, I am not a robot nor an idiotically cringe child
This dude cannot have played rain world vannilla and said that about any% runs being only rivulet or saint cuz that is not how the game works. And you would know that if you knew the dufference between survivor, hunter and monk
Been meaning to get into this game but the movement options just kinda.. scared me, lol.Your vid gave me gumption to give the game another go :) I'
Interesting.
So would you say that if a large quantity of the expert movements had never been found out, that the rw movement system could've been described as perfect?
I am kind of glad that a lot of these advanced movement techniques are not required to play the game efficiently.
First of all - the game is already hard enough for new players, if you include parkour skill into the learning curve it will become even more steep and I don`t think the game needs that, there are challenges and more skill-oriented characters in Downpour if you want that.
Secondly, I think this fits the world quite nicely. All the creatures in game have vastly different movement abilities, and they too need to climb different surfaces and levels, so the amount of poles and tunnels is extremely useful to them and to slugcats. Rainworld`s main thing is that the game world doesn not resolve around the player, it lives completely on its own and does not care for your wellbeing whatsoever. To make platforming sections more challenging would mean to account for the player skill level, and would limit the movement abilities of creatures ( or, y`know, make pretty much all of them fly which to me looks a little like the developers shrugging and giving up, and I can`t blame them here).
I am currently in the Chimney Canopy, and there is one one vertical room you need to go through to start climbing the tower, and I`ve lost amount of times lizards literally rained down on me off-screen there, because there`s also a lot of vultures and scared liards are bad at climbing. So yeah, I am glad that advanced parkour is not really utilised in game world.
Also it makes mastering these moves feel like breaking the game a little.
Rain worlds animations were made by an ai that the devs made
I'm sure that 90% of the movement in rainworld are unintentional emergent properties of the game engine's imperfections. Literally just glitches, like wave dashing in smash. I doubt any of the useless or impossible ones were even intended to exist. Like who the fuck would program in jump storage?
I don’t think a movement system needs to be “important” to be perfect.
It seems more like the movement system isn’t perfect in your eyes because you don’t see value in learning the types of tech that are too impractical for speedrunning or a casual playthrough.
But there’s still value in learning the deepest parts of the movement system just for the sake of it if that’s someone’s cup of tea.
The way I see it, Rain World’s movement system *is* perfect because it provides all the depth needed regardless of what approach you take:
* You barely need any advanced techniques at all for a casual playthrough
* You only need a handful of advanced techniques to successfully speedrun,
* Everything beyond that is for the people who like to experiment and learn in the lab.
In short, it’s perfectly fine for things to just be neat curiosities that don’t have practical applications
Besides, the deeper the tech goes, the more expressive play can become for those interested in learning!
Its funny how even devs didn't know what their movement system capable of doing
*cough cough* super smash brothers melee
3:19 you forgot to link the vieo in the description
I’ve been watching all of ur videos, keep it up
"Make it explorable without, and destroyable with."
Metroid
somebody show this guy a ploink lmao
Only thing shit about it imo is that there's no grab button. Pointing up to grab is something that will never be good. I hated that downpour didn't correct it, yes, correct it. Its a design mistake. The developers thought they were being smart but it's just pure inevitably inefficient bs. Oh and also the forced stop on ledges like you can do in minecraft, I wouldn't mind it if all the ledges were crystal clear but we all know they're not. So many deaths because ledges are simply shorter than its actual design and the corrections is so simple...I can 100% tell u if those 2 mechanics were in the game when it launched the reviews would be waaaaaay better. Gamers should just stop mistaking bad design with fair difficulty.
when you upload my day instantly gets better
You brought up some points about the system I didn't ever consider before, a breath of fresh air is super welcome!
Even as someone who went through the whole doc and spent hours training some moves, the 'important' box does truly remain unchecked for like 98% of the tech. I really hope they address it because it's genuinely a core part of the game when you're invested in it, almost like a sandbox.
Great video too! :)
2:33 I was not ready for the Gimr reference
i was just binging your videos and i just found out about you made this rain world video, i love rain world
i think the movement system in rain world is important because you could do things more fathers within the time limit of rain
I thought Celeste has a lot of confusing tech like Reverse Extended Hypers.
Literally just a hyper but you change direction mid dash
Just wanted to say that the movement Doc doesn't even cover all the movement yet, such as crouch flips and multiple varieties of extended slide pounce flips. Both of them have specific uses, such as skipping areas that normally need a spear lodged into a wall
When I was looking through that movement document, it strangely reminded me of Hoompty's videos about all the weird tricks you can pull off with League of Legends champions. My reaction to both of these things were pretty much: "Wow that's extremely cool, but... I'm never going to see this actually getting used, am I?"
As someone who doesn't really play 2D platformers outside of Rain World (except that one weird game with the cloning guy on Xbox that I've finished around 10 years ago), it was pretty interesting to hear you analyzing all the problems with this. I honestly don't think this really has a negative impact on a game's overall quality, it just simply doesn't really do anything for the actual experience that 99% of players will have.
The only real purpose of the advanced movement tech is to allow players to show off, and to allow developers to put in future Easter eggs that require you to utilize them (I'd argue the jellyfish unlock in Shoreline would count here, even though you can bring in a mushroom or a squidcada to negate the difficulty). Which I'd argue is enough to justify them, especially because you can still have moments where you accidentally pull an advanced trick off, which fills me with a lovely surge of emotions (also, the Easter egg part can't even exist in League, so yeah).
Cloning Clyde was awesome
I read the doc... Now my head hurts from all that K N O W L E D G E
Check out Aether Ridge - it's probably designed the way you're imagining. It has several 'one-way' areas, where the geometry of the room makes it 'impossible' to travel in the unintended direction... but only if you're using basic movement. With advanced movement, you can almost travel anywhere you want, as well as find several secrets. There are also some colored pearls placed in locations where it feels like there's no intended way to reach them, which forces players to use the breadth of their movement knowledge to accomplish something that otherwise feels impossible.
And colored pearls in vanilla have the potential for the slightest flex in movement abilities. I think of the red pearl in Farm Arrays in the giant pipe room, where there's a jump that's impossible to make with normal movement tech. You can get there by bringing a squidcada over, or you could use a number of different movement tech options.
And I think using movement tech to solve open-ended platforming problems is the most Rain World-y way of doing movement. Designing it like a platformer with specific jumps being necessary would feel out of place in a world that needs to feel like it wasn't built for a slugcat, but having a ledge that's just too high to reach that you have to find your own way up fits in the procedural style of the rest of the gameplay.
...though any% doesn't use too much movement tech as it's almost entirely moving downwards. A speedrun like pebbles% uses much more, same with 100%. I think the real shame is that guardian skip is possible, which makes any% a bit boring, imo.
I think making any of the advanced tech necessary to do anything in the game is pretty bad even if its just to reach a scavenger den or an unlock. Itd just be screwing console players over.
Well that's the trick, you don't make it necessary, you just reward those who do know how to do it. I dont think a den of scav weapons is a big deal to hold off from someone, or maybe a lore pearl or something
yeah I agree with this. Up to a certain point it's still fair, but there's certain movements which are extremely difficult on a controller versus a keyboard. It would just end up causing frustration for console players imo, and not the kind that can be managed with practice and patience
@@htwo1 but that misses the point of RW. it's not a quest game or game with high rewards. pearls are already challenging to find, but it's the point that ANYONE can find them if they want to know the lore, even if they're not the greatest at parkour. scavengers' caves are hidden anyway, why would they be additionally obscured by impossible areas? RW is about survival and exploration, and maybe lore if you're up to run after the pearls and Echos, but it's not about getting physically rewarded. your reward is that you survived. also idc if it would be optional, it's never nice to exclude a part of your players only because a certain movement to reach certain area is impossible on console. if some area is impossible to reach because of the controls you use, it wouldn't be a good game
Well, I disagree with the first point made, that all movement elements must be vital for success in order for the movement system to be good. Rainworld is the type of game that doesn't really have a correct way to play. You can spend hours just surviving in the area you spawn in.
I appreciate the complexity of the game even tho I myself am unlikely to use many of the mechanics in it's movement system.
Finally someone made a vid about it! good shit
You are the reason I found this game a while back, from your AI video, thank you so much.
Me: Yeah, Rain World movement is pretty cool
Also me: Accidentally slides off ledge and dies
Rainworld needs a gymnastics competition.
All the top competitors will be pulling off complex moves that no one has ever even seen or heard of before.
Respectfully sir, I disagree with the idea that 'most of the movement is unnecessary' is a bad thing. After all, that is how most skills work in real life.
For example, when learning to sew, you will find many videos and resources showing many (MANY) types of stitches, advertising that you must learn all of them. In reality, I only use a few the majority of the time.
When learning how to cook, people will tell you to get a knife block with, like, 20 or more different kinds of knives in it. I rarely use more than a chef's knife. The rest are unnecessary.
Rain World has many movement options, yes, but only a few are nessesary. Similar to sewing and cooking, and (from what I've been told), playing an instrument, you only need to learn a few options to do decently well. This lowers the skill floor for new players, and raises the skill ceiling for veterans, because there are so many new things to learn to up your skill that extra little bit. This is also how Olympic athletes win the gold- they start out learning the basics, and make skill gains quickly at first. Over time, skill progress slows to a crawl. But that crawl edges them out to be the best of the best.
To put it another way, there is a Ted talk about the 20 Hour Rule (where most of this comment comes from). It takes 20 hours of deliberate practice to learn a new skill decently well. It takes 10,000 hours to become the best of the best. Rain world simulates this excellently.
I was making a game for a moment and there was bugs in the movement system that were helping.
And since rainworld's animation is procedural, it surely has to have bugs in the movement system that make you go fast.
I use a lot of advanced moves, many of them are useful in very specified areas, but I feel a lot of satisfaction when I can perform it and move smoother (pole jumping, advanced slide, slide into the pipe, den jump etc.).
I know this is an old video, but as someone who loves the game to death, has put 250 hours into it, and has played both pre and post Downpour, I have to agree with the points in this video. A lot of the stuff in the movement tech doc, besides definitely not being intended by the devs, never really sees practical use. Heck, before Downpour, I can’t recall one instance where I was forced to do things like a downthrow besides, like, The Wall gate into Five Pebbles. I literally felt so fricking surprised and excited when I had to use a downthrow to reach a random vista in Expedition mode- I have gotten down things like slidepounce-rollpounce comboes to move relatively quickly, but…even before I knew that stuff I was doing pretty decently at just surviving. The movement system is very satisfying once you learn it, but yeah, a lot of stuff does not get used enough.
there are some shortcuts that are already in the game like wall - five pebbles or wall - much else of exterior, however your point is still taken as these are few and far between with the two aforementioned being the only ones i know of.
I would like to see a tutorial that is split into 3 or 4 parts.
Part 1: Intendet movents.
Part 2: Tricks that are based on that movement and are usefull in the game.
Part 3: All the other stuff that is most likely only usefull for speedruns.
Part 4 (or 3.1): Everything beyond speedruns.
the fact that i did most of the absolute insane movment thingies by accident surpirses me
Yep, You explore and discover the movement possibilities, pickup the ones you find uses, the same as you explore the world,
not made as a fast paced speedrun, even if you glitch your way to go fast, this is at its core a cinematic platformer where you explore and take your time
this seems oblivious
I love rainworld, i also love the Risk of Rain 2 music used as an outro, you have good taste in games.
you think the dev's knew bout the extended-slide-flip-bounce-throw-boost-jalopy-moppy-pounce-roll or whatever?
Yeah, most movement techs were definitely intended, most couldn't just be improvised, maybe some physics-based ones could, but the back-flip for example, is definitely intended
I personally feel that the reason the movement can get as advanced as it can is so that long time players will be rewarded for the time and effort they put into mastering the game. While new players don't get immediately get forced out (the game is hard enough as it is) And what I mean by this is that it is not needed at all for the old players to use the advanced movement systems, the game would be playable just not impossible for the new players to play. it is just expanded movement for the people who want to learn to do it.
each character already has their own speedrun category, the maps from downpour are heavily contributed to by popular modders within the community (so movement tech will def be used) and the game does care about its speedrunning community, in the upcoming remix update they added toggles to some fixed exploits speedrunners used jus so they could keep using them if they wanted to
Can you link the movement guide?
Rain world is the only game
Moving the character feels like super mario with down syndrom its soooo clunky and frustrating but the game is great love it