African History Unauthorised ep03 Land
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- Опубликовано: 8 ноя 2024
- We have started a new series aimed at telling the real story about what happened in Africa, which is different to the one our children are being told about. This episode deals with land & property rights in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe). It's a hot topic and this is an interesting interview. Enjoy!
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On the question of a British invasion; my first cousin was in the RAF based in Kenya training Kenyan Air Force. When UDI happened they were re-tasked to bring in SAM air defence systems and Javelin fighter aircraft into Zambia. They were operating into Livingstone.
The operational crews were very unhappy about developments and many had family or close friends in Rhodesia. He told my mother (his Aunt) that they sent a delegation from aircrew to tell their commanders that should they be instructed to engage in hostile actions against Rhodesia they would refuse to obey orders.
My Dad proudly served in the BSAP reserves, & proudly guarded Ian Smith's residence (& was KO'd once doing so).
Thank you to all who served.
RISE O VOICES OF RHODESIA.
Rhodesians never die because we are EVERYWHERE! As are our Rhodesian Ridgebacks. God Bless Rhodesians wherever they may be.
Property rights are the corner stone of society
A very interesting subject which needs extensive research like this. Thank you for exposing this debacle with the British who have continued regardless and treasonous with their sleight of hand.
Please keep them coming Hannes and Chris you must by now have realised how hungry we are for stories from our country of birth , even though bittersweet
Wyt Barnard
Fantastic! This series is pure gold!
Thank you Hannes. Excellent series.
As a black Zimbabwean I am glad to hear from the white people how and when occupation happened and what was the interest of the white people, however I presume if the land redistribution had been done orderly and fairly with could be having a prosperous Zimbabwe now with both white folks and black people living in harmony!
Had the British Government, of circa 1960, not been so perfidious in its cunning deviousness, to disenfranchise white people. And the Patriotic Front not so dumb in its quest for power, that it failed to secure the International Development Fund ("IDF"), just because a big portion of the fund would go towards the white farm buy-back scheme. The country's property rights would have been protected, and the IDF funds secured in Zimbabwe. The monies derived in the 'trickle-down economics' would be reinvested in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe could have become a power-house and not a basket case. With property rights, it would have retained the white population. The sky would be the limit. Unfortunately, the USA/European perspective was forced into Africa, and that was that.
Can there be a "fair" forced redistribution of property ?
Fascinating Gents. I have known this all my life but never had it set out for me. I knew the Matabele stole the land from the Shona who took it from the San people and we took it from Lobengula under the charter with, lets face it, a slight of hand and cunningness. Maybe freeing the Shona was our downfall even though it was the right and good thing to do?. Hard questions.
Wow!! Very sobering. Thank you! I appreciate this information very much. You gentlemen are incredible!!
The book " A Walk Against The Stream " written bye Tony Ballinger he correctly mentions that much of the land was unoccupied due to Teestie fly. Only when the Brits got rid of the Testie fly the land became farmland.
To your point regarding much of the land being unoccupied, indeed there were huge tracts of land unoccupied. When the "settlers" first arrived the total population of the country was significantly lower than a third of a million people. It was only with the introduction of modern medicine and the termination of tribal wars by the Rhodesian authorities, that the population grew.
I have always been interested in Rhodesia, first finding out about it thru SOF magazine ads as a teenager in the late 80s, looking for "A man above men" to serve in its awesome Army. The external operations undertook by the Rhodesian Army were crippling to the insurgents, and a perfect guide to follow in any counter insurgency war. This detailed history lesson was very informative. I put myself in your shoes, and I now understand the political situation much better. I think many Rhodesians had good faith, and meant well. All you have to do is compare its policies with those of South Africa , at that time. I often wonder what a conflict would have looked like after UDI, if Rhodesia would not have agreed to a British supported settlement. Matt, California, 48yrs old.
Matt, it's always eyre opening to also look at the other side without prejudice. Ask yourself why so many people, that supposedly had a good life would go out and fight and sustain the war for almost 15years? How were these people living? What drove them to go and fight? If those concerns had been taken care of soon after UDI Zim would be a different country from this cluster fuck we have right now.
I had a gold mine and Furniture factory in Bulawayo, also occupied and we were thrown off. 350 employees . We had a clinic ,child feeding and a future. Now nothing there. Who chucked us off? Employees. (Under guidance of ZANUPF)
😃 if you had a gold mine in Bulawayo it must have been very secret.
Gold production was primarily centred around the Gatooma area where there were 3 productive mines. The primary producer was the Lonrho Cam & Motor mine.
Born and raised in Bulawayo and was Hospital Secretary/ Pharmacist at Gatooma 1976/79.
@@TheTigerOC I had the Sun Ace mine. You should know Bulawayo ,has a prolific Gold mining history. Turk Mine, still running. and hordes of small mines. Gwanda down the road. Vubachekwe, Big Ben, Blanket Mine one of the biggest producers in Zimbabwe
@@TheTigerOC My Mine, Sun Ace Mine is the Mine just past the Airport, Turk Mine a bit further on, Old Nic right in Bulawayo, Kirrimuir Muir Road Killarney, How Mine. South of Bulawayo. Vubachekwe Gwanda , Blanket mine and dozens of small mines
@Marshall Nyandoro had a canning factory taken just outside Harare.
@Marshall Nyandoro Read Simon Windchester about Chinese inventions and the Needham Question? Modern civilizations create a sound financial base on the recognition and enforcement of property rights. You can't cherry pick. Zimbabwe is an unsafe property investment location. The average 'white Settlor' purchased and paid for land. That is the question? Governing outside of the free-market-system has consequences. Yes, it is a self-serving system but so are all systems.
Greetings. I have just listened to the episodes of the Fighting men of Rhodesia as well as the Keys interview in the African Unauthorised series.
I feel compelled to ad my “two bobs worth” to some of the statements made either by Mr Keys or Mr Wessels.
I would hope this “post” will be read by those who were not in the BSAP, who have viewed the series, so they get a clearer understanding of the situation.
Allow me to introduce myself, so people will realise, just who I am and where I stood in the scheme of things during the “Bush War”.
I ended up as a Detective Inspector in the CID, stationed mainly in Mashonaland, and for a short period in Matabeleland. My first involvement in the war started on the 14th February, 1973, (I did the Investigation and High Court Docket against Joshua Misfire - the code name of the terrorist who wounded the female at Alteena Farm. He was hanged for his efforts. - From that time on one way or another I joined the rest of the CID/SB representatives doing month in Month out, where ever I was sent. I was actually a member of “Fire Force in Mtoko for a period, when it was decided The CID/SB rep and a Dog Handler would be a useful addition on Fire Force. I did spend 12 months as the Forensic Science Liaison Officer in CID HQ. On the morning of the 14th April, 1980, I and a former member of the CID (then a Reservists doing his call up) were operating in the “town ships” of Salisbury, basically picking up dead bodies. The date is important because for better or worse that was the end of Rhodesia, save the politics and paper work.
So as one will note, I was really of little or no consequence to the direction of the war. In fact if a detailed book was written about the BSAP, I would not get a mention. I did 18 years of service.
Now allow me to comment on some of the statements made, either by Mr Keys or Mr Wessels. Allow me to add I have never met Mr Wessels and have no idea of his background. I did not meet Mr Keys in Rhodesia. We did meet at a former members function in Brisbane and sat down and had a chinwag and coffee, again in Brisbane.
One statement was that Wessels had been trying to identify (quote) “Spies and Traitors” who had leaked info to the enemy (whomever that might have been - we had plenty.) He states it ended up as a problem which resulted in trying to find, quote “Who wasn’t leaking information” unquote. To that Mr. Wessels I have this to say, you certainly did not look very far -There were thousands of us who never leaked any information to the enemy. Like most who served, we know there were, I’ll use the colloquial term “sell outs” within our ranks. Unfortunately, the rule of law is that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
Let me elaborate a little - there were rumours of a “team of “sell outs” working out of SB HQ. Allegations abounded that there were members on operational duties (SB/CID) members who, were said to be on “payrolls other than the Rhodesian one. I had a lifelong friend, who was a member of the CID with the Rank of Supt., who, Goodness knows why, transferred across to the CIO under the Terrorist regime. Now, like so many that possessed the “direct evidence” he is now deceased. He gave me the names of people within that CIO (former members of the BSAP) who were working against the interests of former BSAP members and he believed on the payroll of the Brits. Again for legal reasons I can not divulge who they were. There were a few.
Lastly on this subject - after the war I was employed in the Commercial Security business. My duties required traveling to Europe, USA and Asia. After leaving that position, I formed my own company, and through a recommendation by Lloyds of London, became a Director of a worldwide “Risk Management Company”. At a Board meeting in Virginia, one of the American directors, said a staff member had sought a discussion with me. It transpired he had heard I had been in the Police in Rhodesia. He informed me ( he was a former CIA agent) had spent 6 years of our war resident in Zambia, had made frequent visits to Rhodesia and RSA, where he had a number of people on the CIA payroll. While (correctly) he refused to identify the individuals, he did say the “best source of information of what was going down in the future was “a member of the Prime Ministers (Ian Smith) office.
Mr Keys and I did not get on well at all. I have not had contact with him for over 15 years. I found him to be a Walter Mitty Character, with an inflated ego and a sense of self-importance. In fact some of the stories he told me were just so fanciful, that I did not bother to respond. I have no doubt that he had or has a very poor opinion of myself. He was an Inspector (as I was) The Rank of Inspector is not even 50% up the promotion ladder. At best Inspectors are the lower level of middle management. So his treatment at JOC Centenary is understandable.
I will say this however. When I met him he had been a car salesman in Rhodesia, and a salesman for one of the larger upmarket chain of Departmental stores in Brisbane.
He was going to night school, seeking to become a lawyer. I am pleased to see that he achieved his ambition. I also agree with most probably 75% of his statements - the betrayal by the Brits (also the Yanks and more so the South Africans). The failure to promote Blacks. The inconsistencies of operations with constantly changing Officers at the JOC’s.
The fact that intelligence gathering and dissemination was at times haphazard and disorganised.
I do take umbrage as his statements (quote “SB They knew or know nothing”. “SB should have been run by Rhodesians”. There is a suggestion here that, the Brits amongst us were incapable of running SB operations. Do not forget the Syd Bristow was the OC SB, prior to becoming Commissioner, he was South African. The most baffling of statements “We (SB) did not set up a security apparatus in Rhodesia to collected intelligence on a rural basis”
At this juncture, allow me to advise I was not in SB. I was asked to transfer across three times and refused. I worked closely with SB and helped them, when the war spread. They just did not have the staff to cope. In my Bindura days, I worked with Det Insp. Opperman (SB) and two SAS attaché’s Rabbie and Franklin. They were the original “Pseudo Terrorist operators. They used members of the RAR in their teams, prior to the captured terrorists being turned. “Well before Reed Daly came out of retirement. That was in early 1973, they were able to gather extremely useful information in the rural areas, which was acted upon by the SF. Resulting in a number of successful “contacts”
I later became a friend of Peter Begg, whom I met and shared an office with (in CID) when he was “removed from SB for causing alarm and despondency” apparently on the direct instructions of the PM. He and a small number of other SB operatives, spent a long time in PEA, liaising with the Portuguese army. Well before the long lines of “porters” (mujiba’s) carrying arms into the Mavuradonna (Sp?) Mountains. If my memory serves me correctly SB was advising “whom ever - obviously Smith was one” of the build-up of terrorists trained in Russia and China, in PEA. Of the fact they had camps establish in Tanzania. That was eight months before the first shot was fired. You may also know that SB had sources in the very top echelons of ZANU and ZAPU, one of which was killed by a bomb placed under his car in Lusaka - I am told by CIO or Branch whatever SB has, without knowing just how valuable he was. Apparently everyone was too secretive and a lack of coordination)
To suggest that the Intelligence gathering was not, quote “Set Up” unquote is absolute nonsense. I would frankly not have expected a Uniform Branch Inspector (Member in Charge of wherever) or other wise to be privy to this information. They should have been busy running their stations or sections.
Inclosing much of what Mr Keys said in the three interviews I watched, was his opinion, and we are all entitled to that. His knowledge of the History, from a legal perspective, is impressive (given that it is correct)
The last thing Mr Keys said to me on the telephone, after we had decided not to “break bread with each other again” was “I am a member of the Liberal Party (Australia politics) and I know John Howard (PM at the time) personally. I am going to have you deported back to Zimbabwe to face trial for Murder”. Well Mr Keys I am awaiting my arrest for “Murder and deportation.” I have been waiting for nigh on 15 years. I thought killing the opposition in a war was the intention of war. Who knows?
I'm afraid I too must take issue with Mr. Keys' account of the events that took place in the small area of which he purports to have in-depth knowledge. Hannes, you would do well to find an interviewee with greater insight into the intelligence dimension of the "Bushwar", to present a more accurate and less subjective narrative. Sorry, but this narrative simply does not gel with my own experiences as an intelligence operative in the Operation Hurricane Area during the years 1975 to 1980.
@@geraintjones7314 Your comments are 'empty vessel' and self-serving. I had left the Force by 1975. The rest of your comments are fatuous.
Doug Stayton bloviates about himself. I had been a General Manager in the Coles-Meyer Corporation, my responsibility was for a specific micro-computer division. I then became the Managing Director of a very successful national company. I met Stayton in Brisbane, and he was impressed with himself because he had been a transport manager. He had recently lost that job. The fact that he hangs on to my coattails, after a fifteen year no see, and writes an autobiographical essay, says it all.
Thank you great video, thank you for the history
Glad you enjoyed it
I beg to differ in so far as , They won ,we lost! and whilst this is the hardest pill to swallow it remains. Were we able to perpetuate the war, things may have been different, but with the rug being yanked out, and the proverbial knife thrust in. Our friends ,faced with threats from both America and Britain in the form of Kissinger who met with Pik Botha, decided our fate. I wish it were not so!
Fascinating and very informative, many thanks!
I never knew about the 1961 constitution schrade but am not surprised by the duplicity of the British government!
An fascinating talk, particularly the introspective look on where we went wrong, you mentioned your expansion on this in the next episode. Really Looking forward it. Please keep these coming.
A very interesting & enlightening presentation. I am puzzled on the 1961 change of the constitution. As I understand a Referendum is held invovling the all adult citizens or voters. I presume the voters had no sight of the lengthy constitution document. It defies common sense to have a referendum on the constitution. If you could clarify my puzzlement on this it would be greatly appreciated. I am really enjoying all your presentations
Interesting interview and discussion. Thank you.
Excellent !!!
Thank you! Cheers!
Thanks Hannes and William for the recount of often unspoken history, I am definitely going to follow this forward, Britain conveniently likes forget their nefarious history, please keep the episodes coming.👍🏻
The British use of a constitution to deceive and betray an unwary people is interesting. As an American, I have been told that when the U.S. constitution was being debated, the anti-federalists warned that the new constitution would lead to exactly the mess that modern America is today. Few listened, even to Patrick Henry's speeches against it. Later, when the Confederacy was founded, their new constitution attempted to fix the flaws in the original, everything from lame duck presidencies to eminent domain and interstate commerce, but that didn't work out very well to say the least. There is nothing new under the sun.
Also, there seems to have been a naivete among some Rhodesians regarding America. They seemed to think that since they were the front line against communism, America would come to their rescue in the end. It seems that they didn't understand that America was as perfidious as her mother Albion. I wonder how wide spread this belief was.
@@ayodejiolowokere1076 Keep repeating your 4th grade propaganda
All the information you needed would come from David Cornwall,also know as John Le Carre.Its worth watching his interviews about 1960s Brtish Intel.
@ 2835 min..... "I believe it was a con job".....totally agree. No different from the likes of Moffat treaty and Rudd concession!!
My Grandfather was in the BSAP
Great topic. The US, UK Australia, and to a lesser extent New Zealand judged Rhodesians harshly on this topic. The rhetoric used against Rhodesians is now being turned against Australians on the 26/1/2021 (Australia Day).
Yes I read about that...
Yes indeed, what a crock?
Fantastic, again! 👍
Being a white African, my family from both my father and mothers side has been on this continent for close to 400 years now, I always wondered why are we different from the white Americans,Canadians, Australians etc. and the only reason that made any sense was that they were the majority and we the minority, just imagine their reaction if they had to lose farms etc to the original inhabitants of their continents!! As an Afrikaner I can only smile at your trust in the British government and your surprise at what they did to you.
@Ingungumbane I did not want to go that far, for fear that my knowledge of their history is not good enough, but be that as it may, they cannot place themselves in a different position than we found ourselves in, but it seems to me that we are the scape goats of the world, as though we were part of the countries like Britton etc that wanted to plunder this continent while we were not even citizens of such countries.
@Ingungumbane I agree with Theuns Muller, as a white 'tribe' in Rhodesia, we were negligently niave. What a price to pay for loyalty? Our Settlor descendents, should have voted to join the Union of Souht Africa. The British Government (Perfidious Albion, the Roman name for England) plus the ignorant uninformed African-American demands out of the USA, created a dangerous meme that manifested into the 'Winds of Change' in Africa. Never confuse 'justice' and 'the administration of law'.
Very interesting series. Certainly info not available to us in the US. I find it interesting the level of trust given to the British after UDI. I guess the US learned better through several years of open war. It often seemed that loyalty and brotherhood were a one way street with the British Crown. I would be interested to hear more on US relations. As an American, our foreign policy has been screwed up for many years. However finding any info on the US position to Rhodesia is pretty hard to find. While I am not at all surprised by LBJ and Carter's reaction... the total lack of info on Nixon's position makes me wonder. I don't expect to like what I hear but that is standard practice with US foreign policy these days and none the less is something to learn from.
On another note, with my very limited knowledge on the subject... After Portugal pulled out of Mozambique and it became obvious that they would be hostile, was there ever any thought to invading part or all of the country to obtain a port to allow trading with the rest of the world directly? I am sure resources were a huge issue but the upside seems promising??? From an outsider looking in, it appears one of the few ways UDI might have been maintained while a hostile UK and UN and South Africa using Rhodesian for their own needs.
The US involvement was centred around the "cold war" and stopping primarily Russian and Cuban incursions into the region. Overtly they supported the British and upheld UN sanctions with a single exception. The US involvement was primarily through CIA funded activities. The CIA were engaged with South Africa in Angola and were directly involved with UNITA who were engaged in a civil war with FAPLA there. The US provided the South Africans with some advanced weaponry until the South Africans copied the technology and produced it themselves. Once it became clear that the USSR was imploding they lost interest and pulled out and were happy to see South Africa thrown under the bus.
The exception to the sanctions was the Bird Amendment. This piece of legislation allowed the import of Rhodesian chrome which was regarded as the highest quality in the World and essential to US manufacture of advanced jet engines and rocket engines for the space race. The UK was very unhappy about this.
I believe that the Israelis told Smith that the only way for Rhodesia to survive was to take the port of Beira. They said it could be done in a few days with minimal loss of life. The international community would reprimand the Rhodesians but at least we would no longer be landlocked. Smith decided it was too risky..
@@fightingmenofrhodesia I think that was discussed with South Africa. South Africa vetoed it as they felt that would be the perfect excuse for a UN mandated military force to be deployed to "subdue" a regime engaged in blatant warfare.
They couldn't argue with the externals (hot pursuit) as this was an accepted in international law where hostile actions were taking place with the knowledge of the host country.
@@fightingmenofrhodesia It seems odd that a reprimand by the international community already set against Rhodesian would be a real threat? I guess if Smith really still held out hope that Rhodesia might overcome that... but it would seem naïve by the mid 70s at least. However I am sure the issues were more complex than I understand.
@@TheTigerOC Thanks for the info. I will have to research into some of that as I am not familiar with some of it. Good ole Byrd, from my neighbor state of WV. KKK member to Democrat Senator and still there in 2010. Its hard to imagine given the current state of that party supporting the destruction of anything not 100% PC today. I have heard of his Amendment. I wonder how this chome was exported? Through SA? Very interesting.
Clearly military contingency plans were being prepared before the end of 1964 in Rhodesia (and who knows perhaps even in Britain) I recall the then Head of the Rhodesian Army - Anderson (apologies, I forget his rank) - must have declared that he wouldn't support any decision to implement UDI as he left the country at some speed. I did my basic training soon after UDI and we were told during various int briefings that the British military had been asked to produce a plan to invade Rhodesia. I believe one was drawn up but, at some point, the Heads of several British units told Wilson that they would not support such an operation - one of those units was the SAS. Brings a whole new meaning to "Comrades in Arms". The RAF and those missiles and sending the Irish Guards to Botswana was part of plan B. We all know the maxim "leave it to the politicians to mess things up" - in this case that quote is reserved for 'life-long, professional politicians' - clearly, not the ones from Rhodesia.
The argument of Land conquest doesn't make sense since it can be argued that the black Africans just re-conquest the land back. so all's fair in love and war. The more interesting analyses is the clash between the Bantu migrations and European expansionism lasting 300 hundred years. In Africa, the Bantu's seemed to have successfully fought back and completed their domination of Sub-Sahara Africa. So the Europeans failed to mirror in Africa what they achieved in the America's and Australia. The same in the Far East another graveyard of European dreams.
Interesting presentation... but it needs fixed reference points ... Please put in dates (maybe
Dates might be added in type- face when key dates are mentioned)?
I am curious about the lands rights issue. Under Article 124 of the 1979 Constitution the acquisition of land by the State requires market related compensation. In a case heard by the SADC a British national who had bought a farm after 1979 was "evicted" from the property by the State. The SADC tribunal ruled that the State was liable to pay the farmer the market rate for the farm under the Constitution. Needless to say the Government ignored the ruling. Apart from harsh words the SADC members took no action against the Zimbabwe Government.
Given that the British Government facilitated the Constitution they in effect underwrote the Constitution. Has anybody considered taking a class action suite out against the British Government under the Vienna Convention on Treaties?
The land purchased by the white Settlers in Southern Rhodesia, was from the BSA Company and later in 1923 from the British Giovernment. This was all executed under the Letters Patent Constitution for Southern Rhodesia in 1923. The purchase price for the unalienated land was 2 million English pounds at five percent interest, and was paid in full and on time to the British Government. The South African situation is a completely different set of issues.
@@williamkeys6782 Yes, I understand that from the interview.
Article 124 of the 1979 was intended to protect all landowners and provided the mechanism of appeal and remedy. Yet when the government acted exactly like Smith predicted the underwriters and guarantor of the document failed to ensure government complied. The Vienna Convention is there to protect people when Government fails to comply with their obligations.
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.corteidh.or.cr/tablas/r29843.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwii-J2u3rbuAhVlo3EKHcDcA484FBAWMAN6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw0_HRkwMJhLF5018zJOxOk6
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.law.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxlaw/magaisalandinzimbabwerevised2906101.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj68YzZ4bbuAhWzgVwKHakRDMAQFjABegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw1AhdM8xgDUr0lkGdk25yHy
One of the biggest betrayals in history by the British establishment. It still brings shame to this day.
You can say that again. And the betrayal continued, see Lord Owen's BBC 4 revelation about who the informant 'mole' was in Rhodesia. Lord Owen says he was reading Rhodesian CIO reports.
@@jimmycricket5366 I agree totally, Suid Afrika followed. A communist installed as a leader and it has been downhill since. All of those globalists have had one agenda and still do. World government. Keep up the critical thinking friend, and tell your kids, grandkids and anyone else who will listen. It's not over until the fat lady sings.
@@jimmycricket5366 music to my ears that thanks. I look at WW2 as a struggle between national and international socialism, the latter winning. You are right on all counts, Prussian "education" denies the young an analytical thought process. That's why homeschool is the only true educational path. Over the years my views have caused rifts in family and friends, however, there is hope, a few youngsters have listened and now they question everything. Without critical thought, we really are not functioning human beings. My grandpa taught and raised me, 14 to 18 in France had influenced him, and he made sure I did not accept as blind truth everything that others said. Where does it all end? We know that, and it makes me smile. Best wishes.
Amazing how the Shona people always say the land belonged to them when in fact the San Bushmen were there first.
Thay laid waist to the land and never rebuilt it
Thoroughly enjoyable, thank you Hannes and Will.
Thanks for listening
I served 4 years in the BSAP, 2 of which were as a paramilitary in the Support Unit aka The Black Boots . My opinion has always been that we, as Rhodesians,. were too trustworthy and naïve and that was our downfall. This has been born out by Willie Keys' presentation. I still have issues in this aspect today where 80% of the people I deal with in civvie street tell you one thing to your face but behind your back it's another story. I don 't get all this 'Perfidous Albion' b-s though. That's the way politics rolls the world over and we should have been wise to this, but as we were simple country boys, we weren't. In retrospect UDI was, IMHO again, a mistake. Most of us lost good friends in the hondo and for what? Nothing, nada, zip.
@Pc Pc you make one valid point - we should always respect and honour our fallen comrades, whether we knew them or not. However, you also ask what we would have become by not resisting communism and then state that communism was inevitable.....maybe with hindsight resisting was a waste of time, manpower and effort. Also, you use a pseudonym. Did you serve?
@Pc Pc Good reply thanks
Did you know Derek Tomlin? BSAP ex UK and Sandhurst
Do you have Derel Tomlin's regimental number. The late Mike Edden, ex CO SB and CID for Rhodesia, was also ex Sandhurst.
@@williamkeys6782 Morning William, I will get it from my sister ,Dereks(Tommy) wife , lives in UK Thanks for reply
Yes gentlemen when will accept that to sup with the devil you must have very long spoon. Our own Lucifer was our erroneous belief in the common decency and honesty of the Brits and never learning from their behaviour
So the white inhabitants bought the land from the British Government who bought it from the British South Africa Company.
How did the British South Africa Company acquire the land?
RMY
The BSA Company occupied Central Africa under the authority of a Royal Charter granted by Queen Victoria. The occupation of Central Africa was a quasi-conquest, under the British flag and financed by a private company. The company had its own army and civil force. This was not unusual i.e. East India Comany and various private companies, with royal charters, established footholds in north America. In legal speak 'occupation and the exercuse of soveignty over that land' creates legitimate ownership. It happened in the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
@@williamkeys6782
In North America, South America and Australia occupation and exercise of authority was accompanied by mass extermination, to the point of genocide.
In southern Africa there was no extermination, but there was conquest and then subjugation.
Originally there was plenty of land in comparison to tbe population, but because there waa no mass extermination and Our Maker had ordered to go forth and multiply, this land became too little with time.
In southern Africa the white settlers purchased some land from the inhahitants; sometimes for rifles and bottles of brandy. In recent times in the north-eastern Transkei a case of whisky or brandy could buy one a stunning seafront plot with East Coast Lobsters in the pond at the end of the garden.
A question would be was whether this land was legally owned by those early sellers or was also the proceeds of theft from the previous owners, i.e dealing in stolen property.
The next question is whether a Royal Charter actually gives any right to simply occupy, assert authority and thereby claim ownership.
And where does such royalty actually derive such rights to create a Royal Charter?
So back in those wild days, it distilled down to a matter of might is right and ownership of land was achieved by might.
But in time the might of the mightiful became less and the might of the meek became more, as did their numbers.
So the AK-47 and RPG-7 and boxes of matches were employed to undo the work of the Royal Charters.
So sadly lots of people got hurt and killed, both physically and financially.
Such has been the way of the world for the last 7 000 years, maybe longer.
These days the only way to prevent it is MAD, mutually assured destruction, with each sovereign entity spending a substantial portion of its GDP on weapons and manpower to defend that sovereignty.
It's the nature of man.
RMY
The BSA Company were granted a 'Queen Victoria Royal Charter' to occupy central Africa in the name of the Crown. This was financial adventurism, underwritten by Cecil John Rhodes and within the corporate structure of the BSA Company. The Companyt had powerful shareholders. This type of financial adventurism was not uncommon e.g. inter alia, the Dutch East India Company.
Find it odd u talk abt land and leave out the 1930 Land Apportionment Act tht made it illegal for Africans to purchase land outside of established Native Purchase Areas (29.8% of land) which were mostly located on unfertile land. Natives who had settled onto what were now white-only territories(50% of land) were forced to relinquish their land rights and expected to subside on overcrowded reservations. The Act ultimately led to a decline in agricultural production for native peoples, which added to the growing inequality. This in turn caused food shortages within the reserves, with individuals unable to engage in profitable farming. To make matters worse, large portions of the land allotted to white settlers were unused, and left to fallow. By 1950, the Land Apportionment Act had created a crisis in terms of population size and ecological damage on the native reserves.
The argument tht there would be an eventual take over by 'blacks' when they had property and education is odd when they were legally denied participation in the economy in any meaningful way. The system was set up so the vast majority of the Natives would not amount to anything more than cheap labour.
I definitely can appreciate your perspective, but please understand that in the late 1890s early 1900s white's were pheno-typical of that time, and so were the blacks. In a contemporary light, things were unfair, but things were dreadfully unfair everywhere at that time. The whites purchased their farms from the BSA Company, and later, they purchased the unalienated land from the British Government. Remember the British Government sold the land to the white settlers. It was Queen Victoria that had originally granted a Royal Charter to occupy Central Africa. This is how property rights come about. If you want a modern economy you must establish enforceable property rights. I can guess, you find the concept hard? Hard, but only in Africa. Every developing country accepts the concept.
@@williamkeys6782 I definitely appreciate the concept of property rights and how it's essential for any (modern) economy. Am against the nationalisation of land, tht experiment has been done a million times and has failed miserably. Reverting back to subsistence farming has taken us bck to the stone age. However, the rights tht were bestowed by the queen and the BSA are rather hard to swallow for the natives as they were not party to tht arrangement and allocations of land were purposely set to favor the settlers. Why then should the natives ratify tht particular arrangement? A native might ask, what moral or legal authority does the queen have over a now independent and sovereign nation. The Lancaster house constitution was flawed in tht it kicked the can down the street as it danced around some very important issues. if the matter had been settled then, it would have likely been favourable to everyone. To say tht things should have been left the way they were would be naive as land was a core issue in the entire discourse
I can't help but think that if Ian Smith hadn't said "I don't believe in black majority rule ever in Rhodesia, not in a thousand years" the bush war may not have started. At around 23:00 the speaker acknowledges the inevitability of black majority rule. It would have been far better to do it gradually and peacefully over time than what actually took place. Thoughts?
Three thoughts:
1) Ian Smith's comment should be read in context to understand it.
2) Read the post UDI constitution, 1970 and you will see that black majority rule would probably have been in place by 1980.
3) Ian Smith was well aware of this, indeed I'm sure that he played no small part in the formulation of that constitution. So again I repeat that the context of his words should be taken into account before any judgement is passed. Remember, they were said a few years after the constitution was in place. I'm not sure of the date, but my guess would be 1977.
Paraphrased/simplified copies of the constitution I can add if required.
Ian made the statement in March 1976: ruclips.net/video/pdK1i0q0LAc/видео.html
I agree.
Good recap on how Rhodesia came to be and the role of the BSA Company. Just a pity that Will Keys uses the opportunity to let viewers know that he is the world president of the Regimental Association and then launches into an attack on SB not serving the needs of the BSAP, and that we should have had an intelligence operation second to none run by Rhodesians, insinuating that it wasn't. Appreciate may be his personal opinions, but then don't try and give them some weight by associating them with the fact that he is currently the worldwide president of the Regimental Association to try and give them some credibility. Sadly I feel he is doing both the BSAP and the Regimental association a disserve. Pity the interview didn't stick with just the land issue where clearly he has some knowledge worth sharing
The history of the BSAP is the history of Rhodesia, and as an amateur historian, I know that the truth is always preferable. Please don't criticise until you have all the facts. Once you understand the reasons for my statements you might find yourself agreeing with me. Start by researching Lord Owen's public statements in which he identifies his informant in the CIO. The British Cabinet Minutes, over the relevant period, has been released. Research them, and then still criticise me. It is history, good, bad and indifferent. But it is not without some serious criticisms.
Greetings. I have just listened to the episodes of the Fighting men of Rhodesia as well as the Keys interview in the African Unauthorised series.
I feel compelled to ad my “two bobs worth” to some of the statements made either by Mr Keys or Mr Wessels.
I would hope this “post” will be read by those who were not in the BSAP, who have viewed the series, so they get a clearer understanding of the situation.
Allow me to introduce myself, so people will realise, just who I am and where I stood in the scheme of things during the “Bush War”.
I ended up as a Detective Inspector in the CID, stationed mainly in Mashonaland, and for a short period in Matabeleland. My first involvement in the war started on the 14th February, 1973, (I did the Investigation and High Court Docket against Joshua Misfire - the code name of the terrorist who wounded the female at Alteena Farm. He was hanged for his efforts. - From that time on one way or another I joined the rest of the CID/SB representatives doing month in Month out, where ever I was sent. I was actually a member of “Fire Force in Mtoko for a period, when it was decided The CID/SB rep and a Dog Handler would be a useful addition on Fire Force. I did spend 12 months as the Forensic Science Liaison Officer in CID HQ. On the morning of the 14th April, 1980, I and a former member of the CID (then a Reservists doing his call up) were operating in the “town ships” of Salisbury, basically picking up dead bodies. The date is important because for better or worse that was the end of Rhodesia, save the politics and paper work.
So as one will note, I was really of little or no consequence to the direction of the war. In fact if a detailed book was written about the BSAP, I would not get a mention. I did 18 years of service.
Now allow me to comment on some of the statements made, either by Mr Keys or Mr Wessels. Allow me to add I have never met Mr Wessels and have no idea of his background. I did not meet Mr Keys in Rhodesia. We did meet at a former members function in Brisbane and sat down and had a chinwag and coffee, again in Brisbane.
One statement was that Wessels had been trying to identify (quote) “Spies and Traitors” who had leaked info to the enemy (whomever that might have been - we had plenty.) He states it ended up as a problem which resulted in trying to find, quote “Who wasn’t leaking information” unquote. To that Mr. Wessels I have this to say, you certainly did not look very far -There were thousands of us who never leaked any information to the enemy. Like most who served, we know there were, I’ll use the colloquial term “sell outs” within our ranks. Unfortunately, the rule of law is that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
Let me elaborate a little - there were rumours of a “team of “sell outs” working out of SB HQ. Allegations abounded that there were members on operational duties (SB/CID) members who, were said to be on “payrolls other than the Rhodesian one. I had a lifelong friend, who was a member of the CID with the Rank of Supt., who, Goodness knows why, transferred across to the CIO under the Terrorist regime. Now, like so many that possessed the “direct evidence” he is now deceased. He gave me the names of people within that CIO (former members of the BSAP) who were working against the interests of former BSAP members and he believed on the payroll of the Brits. Again for legal reasons I can not divulge who they were. There were a few.
Lastly on this subject - after the war I was employed in the Commercial Security business. My duties required traveling to Europe, USA and Asia. After leaving that position, I formed my own company, and through a recommendation by Lloyds of London, became a Director of a worldwide “Risk Management Company”. At a Board meeting in Virginia, one of the American directors, said a staff member had sought a discussion with me. It transpired he had heard I had been in the Police in Rhodesia. He informed me ( he was a former CIA agent) had spent 6 years of our war resident in Zambia, had made frequent visits to Rhodesia and RSA, where he had a number of people on the CIA payroll. While (correctly) he refused to identify the individuals, he did say the “best source of information of what was going down in the future was “a member of the Prime Ministers (Ian Smith) office.
Mr Keys and I did not get on well at all. I have not had contact with him for over 15 years. I found him to be a Walter Mitty Character, with an inflated ego and a sense of self-importance. In fact some of the stories he told me were just so fanciful, that I did not bother to respond. I have no doubt that he had or has a very poor opinion of myself. He was an Inspector (as I was) The Rank of Inspector is not even 50% up the promotion ladder. At best Inspectors are the lower level of middle management. So his treatment at JOC Centenary is understandable.
I will say this however. When I met him he had been a car salesman in Rhodesia, and a salesman for one of the larger upmarket chain of Departmental stores in Brisbane.
He was going to night school, seeking to become a lawyer. I am pleased to see that he achieved his ambition. I also agree with most probably 75% of his statements - the betrayal by the Brits (also the Yanks and more so the South Africans). The failure to promote Blacks. The inconsistencies of operations with constantly changing Officers at the JOC’s.
The fact that intelligence gathering and dissemination was at times haphazard and disorganised.
I do take umbrage as his statements (quote “SB They knew or know nothing”. “SB should have been run by Rhodesians”. There is a suggestion here that, the Brits amongst us were incapable of running SB operations. Do not forget the Syd Bristow was the OC SB, prior to becoming Commissioner, he was South African. The most baffling of statements “We (SB) did not set up a security apparatus in Rhodesia to collected intelligence on a rural basis”
At this juncture, allow me to advise I was not in SB. I was asked to transfer across three times and refused. I worked closely with SB and helped them, when the war spread. They just did not have the staff to cope. In my Bindura days, I worked with Det Insp. Opperman (SB) and two SAS attaché’s Rabbie and Franklin. They were the original “Pseudo Terrorist operators. They used members of the RAR in their teams, prior to the captured terrorists being turned. “Well before Reed Daly came out of retirement. That was in early 1973, they were able to gather extremely useful information in the rural areas, which was acted upon by the SF. Resulting in a number of successful “contacts”
I later became a friend of Peter Begg, whom I met and shared an office with (in CID) when he was “removed from SB for causing alarm and despondency” apparently on the direct instructions of the PM. He and a small number of other SB operatives, spent a long time in PEA, liaising with the Portuguese army. Well before the long lines of “porters” (mujiba’s) carrying arms into the Mavuradonna (Sp?) Mountains. If my memory serves me correctly SB was advising “whom ever - obviously Smith was one” of the build-up of terrorists trained in Russia and China, in PEA. Of the fact they had camps establish in Tanzania. That was eight months before the first shot was fired. You may also know that SB had sources in the very top echelons of ZANU and ZAPU, one of which was killed by a bomb placed under his car in Lusaka - I am told by CIO or Branch whatever SB has, without knowing just how valuable he was. Apparently everyone was too secretive and a lack of coordination)
To suggest that the Intelligence gathering was not, quote “Set Up” unquote is absolute nonsense. I would frankly not have expected a Uniform Branch Inspector (Member in Charge of wherever) or other wise to be privy to this information. They should have been busy running their stations or sections.
Inclosing much of what Mr Keys said in the three interviews I watched, was his opinion, and we are all entitled to that. His knowledge of the History, from a legal perspective, is impressive (given that it is correct)
The last thing Mr Keys said to me on the telephone, after we had decided not to “break bread with each other again” was “I am a member of the Liberal Party (Australia politics) and I know John Howard (PM at the time) personally. I am going to have you deported back to Zimbabwe to face trial for Murder”. Well Mr Keys I am awaiting my arrest for “Murder and deportation.” I have been waiting for nigh on 15 years. I thought killing the opposition in a war was the intention of war. Who knows?