Excellent arguments. Lucifer decided, Adam and Eve decided, the rich man decided, Jesus couldn't gather Israel like the hen with her chickens even though He wanted. God wants everyone to be saved through faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. But each individual has to make a decision. That's why there is a Judgment day. Believe in Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Calvinism and Armenianism had divided the Body of Christ for too long.
You absolutely just cannot make up the double talk of these arrogant calvinist teachers, completely irrational thought processes, FULL of contradictions, the blindness is ASTOUNDING!!
@@beberean612 read his critiques of other views, and you’ll usually find lies or fallacies within the first paragraph. I’m a Calvinist myself, but I can’t stand to read or listen to John Piper.
According to Eph. 1:5 our election in Christ is based on the good pleasure of God's will and not our faith. Our covenant union with Christ is the source of the spiritual blessings that we as the people of God possess. Also, I would point out that your idea of cooperate election will not fit children who die in infancy.
So apparently I've believed in corporate election for a long time without knowing what it is called. 😅 Thank you for the clarity. By the way, misrepresentation of theological positions and strawmen is extremely common among Calvinists these days. Haha
@@Lament8765 I agree. I don’t think you are following the conversation. We are agreeing with corporate election in Christ for whosoever will. Not with the false Calvinist unconditional and irresistible election to salvation.
I totally agree with you very well explained.I just don’t understand how man of such knowledge and teachers of the Bible read the same Bible and have different conclusions and views it baffles my mind because what you said makes perfect sense to me.
I appreciate your explanation. I’ve never heard this before, but it is bringing up some passages in my mind that have made me wonder quite a bit. Going to read and pray with this in mind.
Actually Calvinism is a corporate election, selecting a group of God loved respected persons before they are born, and rejecting a group of God hated people before they are born That's a corporate election
Indeed. We (all) believe we are safe in the corporation of Christ. That's what's so bizarre about Piper's claims, and why I believe this is nothing more than a strawman. The question is (how) we get into that corporation. Calvinists believe it is because of God's decree, Armenians believe it is because of foreseen faith, and we believe it is only through faith. Yes, we believe God knew who the elect would be, but we simply do not believe that was a factor in election itself. We believe the only factor, that God determined before the foundation of the world, was being (in Christ).
@@larrybedouin2921 he is, according to Calvinism predestination of an elect group for salvation before creation and passing over the majority for certain hell with no chance ever if being saved by Jesus blood because it was not shed for them. They are articles for destruction doomed from the womb for hell for God's glory according to John Calvin. This makes God a respecter of a person. Prove me wrong.
Ephesians 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,” If you are chosen for salvation before the world begins; then you are also sealed before the world begins.However, the faithful are sealed by God after He chooses to acknowledge their faith.
A short extract from a John Wesley quotation: "God knows that man sins; for He knows all things: Yet we do not sin because He knows it, but He knows it because we sin; and His knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it".
How can Piper possibly believe that the teaching of corporate election "sends" people to hell if calvinism is true?? isnt he supposed to believe your eternal destiny was decided before the world began? if so, what he says here is crazy! he speaks as if we have a "choice"! he says his version of calvinism "is all about the heart", but calvinism teaches the heart is so depraved that i cant respond to the gospel. so please someone from the reformed camp, tell me how you circle this square
@@williamwagoner7857 again, if God "changes your heart" then there is still no choice. when the calvinist says that phrase they mean "changes your will" forcibly. it cannot be otherwise if salvation is "unconditional" and "irresistable"
He talks about people believing they're saved because they "belong to some institution," and that honestly makes me think that he doesn't actually have any idea what corporate election even is in the first place.
Which is more damaging? The theory of a triune essence shared by 3 persons or the theory that a Loving Father predestined the major majority of His creation to be doomed without a chance? If a person is zealously defending such irrationalities, we can know they do not know God.
You got it right at 6:30... First thing I understood in the video... read the Bible Bunches of times.... It is always about individual salvation... He told Ezekiel to be a sign to all of Israel... And then told him even if he had two of the most holiest men ever on either side of him.... Only his righteousness would save him.
2:50 He's so inconsistent it's laughable... First, he writes a book entitled "Don't Waste Your Life"... as if someone's life determined by God himself could be 'wasted'. Now, he suggests there are people in Hell today for some other reason than the eternal, unchangeable, decree of God from before the foundation of the world.😎😎 If his own doctrine is true... how can that be???? He says there are more people in Hell because of the "false securities of cooperate thinking than because of over individualizing the doctrine of salvation".... THAT IS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO HIS OWN PROFESSION THAT GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE BECAUSE HE PERFORMS THE FUTURE. And it completely undermines the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election. If Calvinism is true, no one is in Hell than for any other reason than God created them for eternal destruction and his own glory. DOES THIS MAN EVER ACTUALLY LISTEN TO HIMSELF🤔🤔
@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT -- The pride in their hardened hearts hinders them from recognizing their error. Even logic doesn't help them, when it should. "You will recompense them O, Lord, according to the work of their hands. You will give them hardness of heart. Your curse will be on them." -Lamentations 3:64-65
@@primeobjective5469 Calvinism appeals to to some that way. Everybody's got a weak link, Satan knows exactly how to attack that weakness in everyone. He has a toolbox full of tools crafted for that purpose. Calvinism is just another tool that he uses for those susceptible to it. One thing that captures some is the seduction of claiming to 'understand' something about God which others do not. Calvinism gives them that AND the greatest plausible deniability is that God "did it" to them and they had nothing to do with it 🤷🏻♂. It isn't true, but they have become convinced it is. I love it when Paul says, “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works” (2 Timothy 4:14, kjv ).... I always laugh a bit when I read that one. 🤣🤣
He does know what he is talking about. Just because you circled a date on a calendar does not guarantee salvation. Jesus says, we must take up our cross daily. 5 points of Calvinism is a dangerous doctrine. Some of you may say, well, how many sins does it take to lose one's salvation. Christ died for all our sins, the ones we have committed and the ones we are going to commit. When Christ saved us, He saved us for eternity however, He didn't take our freedom of choice. Man can and does decide if he continues too walk with the Lord.
Of course he doesn't understand. His own view is ALL saved people were saved unilaterally and arbitrarily by God prior to any fallen state or sins. All the rest God condemns to be sinners by decree, and sends them a message to repent of what God decreed for them to be which they cannot respond to by decree. God on Calvanism is double minded and self contradictory.
@@beberean612 Don't feel bad I was an atheist before God slapped upside the head (like a good dad should when his kid is being silly). I cut my teeth on determinism there.
@@malvokaquila6768 I understand. My determinism almost led me into atheism when the thought came into my mind... If God has determined all things that come to pass, has He determined my hypocrisy? I told myself, "My hypocrisy is a thing that has come to pass." And was it God who determined for this thought to come into my mind? This thought is a thing that has come to pass. Why would God determine this for one of His elect? Am I elect?
Why do you say that? It seems to me that Calvinism is the exact opposite of what the prosperity liars like Copeland preach. Copeland and his ilk say that we can speak our reality into existence, that we basically are Gods. Calvinism says that we are so unlike God, so far fallen, that God can barely be bothered to pay attention to us, much less save us from our depravity. The fact that he does is a testament to his divine mercy.
I think it’s incredibly that people just take Calvinism as the truth without going to the source of who was John Calvin,what was he like and what he actually did and believed because if you did you’d be shocked. People find it easy to call out JWs after reading about Rutherford and Russell and there beliefs well it’s the same with Calvin if not worse,don’t trust me go right on line and find out for yourself how he distorted the words of our lord to fit his narrative and the consequences of how complicit he was in the deaths of people who disagreed with him.as I said you will be shocked.
At minute 1:30-1:45, Piper speaks about those who criticize his group saying that they make too much about the individual heart. But Be Berean apparently neither criticizes Piper's group in that way, nor disagrees with Piper. Be Berean also stresses it being about the individual heart, according to the video, so Be Berean would not be criticizing Piper's group on that basis. Piper is obviously talking about other scholars and other critics, and not including Be Berean in that category. Just because Be Berean believes in corporate election, does not mean that corporate election fits what Piper is talking about when Piper describes his critics.
Hello friend! Piper is speaking out against the teaching of corporate election regarding salvation, which is a view held by many people throughout history. We are simply representing them, because we are included with them. You are not wrong in what you are saying, but I believe you may be missing the forest for the trees my brother. Even though there are some nuances within corporate election, as with any view, there is no version of corporate election I am aware of that teaches we are safe in our corporateness, outside of Christ, presumably, as (within Christ) would affirm and accurately represent our position, and ultimately it would remove the basis for the argument. In other words, Piper's argument self-destructs if "safe in our corporateness" means safe because of the corporation of Christ. This is a common debate tactic called a Strawman. It confuses the audience into believing one position has defeated the other, by creating a similar yet fundamentally different version of the opposing position, and defeating that version, claiming victory over that position. But you can't just beat up a strawman that looks like the real Royce Gracie, and actually claim victory over the real Royce Gracie, but from a distance and in the right lighting, you may be able to fool someone watching. Thank you for your comment!
And Ephesians 2 says that gentiles, when they believe, move from being separated from the commonwealth of Israel, to being brought near by the blood of Christ. Brought near to what? The commonwealth of Israel. Making gentiles a part of Gods chosen people Israel. Paul is even more clear in Gal 3 when he says that we gentiles who believe are children of Abraham. Cooperate election preserves the doctrine of election without ANY of the problems of Calvinism.
I'm about halfway through this, and am struggling with what the conflict is. Calvinists have often touted corporate salvation, like when they go on about being in the family line of believers, baptized into a covenant family, quoting verses about saving many generations when someone in the family line is righteous. And the narrator of the video is saying that his group does stress individual salvation, not corporate. So if his group stresses individual salvation, and so does John Piper, then Piper is not speaking against his group at all. Why be on the defensive? Why not join Piper and agree with him that Calvinists should not put so much emphasis on corporate salvation?
I would recommend re-watch the section with the analogy. Real Corporate election relates to individual salvation, yes, but is not the point of contention. The true point of contention was never addresses, because Piper was too busy confusing you, as he punched, and licked, and choked-out his own strawman. The true point of contention is this. Corporate election makes a lot of sense, and when people really understand what it is, those who converted to Calvinism because they were unsatisfied with (Conditional Election) might go, wait a minute... that makes more sense than Calvinism! So, to keep this from happening, Piper created a fictious version of corporate election, that doesn't exist, "Now look! I defeated Corporate Election!"
I would encourage you all to read your bibles. There are scriptures that support arminianism, yes. However there are so many more that support calvinism. Do you just ignore those scriptures? You would have to in order to accept these teachings. Read your bibles people. I pray for you all.
At 2:30-2:38, Piper has not mentioned corporate election at all, nor has he called out Be Berean by name. Piper has said "corporate thinking", but it is obviously a specific kind of "corporate thinking" that is carried out neither by Piper nor by Be Berean, so we're all good, right?
Piper is referring to the corporate view of election which we, and many others hold to, and he is calling it dangerous. But the "version" of corporate election Piper put forward is a Strawman. A "Strawman" is a common debate tactic, used to confuse the audience into believing one position over another, by creating a similar, yet weaker version of the opposing position, and defeating that weaker version. Like making a Strawman that looks like big ole' Billy Bob, beating that Strawman up on stage for everyone to see, and claiming victory over Billy Bob, when Billy Bob himself might put a hurtin on you. Thank you for your comment! God Bless!
@@lawrence1318 No it isn't. I was begging the question so you can understand how pointless it is to use fallacious arguments, like saying there can be no such thing as corporate election. A non-sequitur would be like saying, if unconditional election is false, God isn't sovereign. That's a non-sequitur, when the conclusion does not follow the premises.
@@beberean612 There can be no such thing as corporate election, for there is no such thing as a whole without the parts that make it up. Once you elect individuals, the multitude they happen to form is irrelevant and immaterial.
@@lawrence1318 This is a fundamental misunderstanding and caricature of corporate election. The election takes place in real time, when we place your faith in Christ, not before the foundation of the world. When someone puts their faith in Christ, they enter into the (corporation) of Christ. The only way what you are saying could hold any water is if God chose people before the foundation of the world to (be) in the corporation... But that's not corporate election at all, that's just Calvinism.
Nowhere in this video did I hear the answer to the implied question: How many Angels can dance on the head of a pin? Stop trying to let God off the hook. A God who does not know absolutely everything is not God. And besides, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life." Is John Piper not one of the 'whosoever' because he doesn't believe what you believe concerning God's ignorance?
@@johnnolen8338 We love Piper. This is not a feud; it is a disagreement. He is attacking our view publicly as being dangerous, we are defending ourselves by simply stating the facts of our position. I think Piper is the one you need to speak with. Thank you for your comment and God bless!
@@beberean612 Okay. I accept that. For what it's worth I don't need to speak with anybody. I don't have a complaint with either one of you. I just don't think that arguing semantics when there's a world dying and going to hell is of very much value. The cross of Christ is all that counts.
I get where you are coming from, I don't agree with all of pipers theology the parts where he talks about God willing or choosing evil to exist and some other parts too about us not having ability to choose, I don't know where I fit I'm not Calvinist, my back ground was word of faith but over the last 11 years or so I've been on a journey away from that and in the last 5 or so years Piper has been the one the Lord has used to throw me a life raft that I've clung too. he is certainly Not a silent watch dog giving no warning when danger comes, I wrestle with what you talked about because I see Jesus tell his disciples you have been permitted to understand but others have not. or paul laying it out in Rom 9 and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen. and yet I know there can be no salvation without me choosing to obey God Paul's writings are full of warnings Jesus in revelations gives warnings to the church's IF you do not then I will so Im still trying to fit it all together. But one thing I thank the Lord for is Pipers Voice on making Jesus My treasure on that I have no disagreement with him Thankyou for your post I you sound like someone who reasons things through I look forward to watching you again
Thank you for your comment! Of course, we have non-Calvinist interpretations for all of the passages you mentioned, including Romans 9. Remember, we all believe Scripture is our ultimate authority, it's only the Calvinistic interpretation that we are speaking out against. God Bless!
Hey I am the same. I believe in a lot of what word if faith teaches but the biggest area is not serotology as the believe that we are saved by faith through grace. The biggest issue I have is the way they represent the blessings and provision of God. But with Calvinistic teachers like Piper and John McArthur are confusing at best. On onenhabe they speak out against the gifts of the spirit and prosperity gospel which is highly misrepresented like corporate and individual election. IE their defence of thier view by representing the other side inconsistently and usually with no scriptural backing. I agree with the video it highly irresponsible the way Piper and McArthur represent the opposing side. As with your word if faith experience. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. My take on it is like this. 1. God desires all to be blessed. After all why would God send His son. The Word is full of promises that say God will look after all your needs. And provide both spiritually and physically. 2. There are conditions to the blessings a) you must be a child of God b) you must be seeking Him first 3) Blessings/Provision come only because of who God is. Not because we give but because God keeps His word. 3) 0pinion: God's blessings only come because God is first in our lives. (See old testament principals) in the old testament and new we reap what we sow. None of God's provisions come unless we seek Him first Mat6:33
@@HKFromAbove Im not sure Id put Piper in the same camp as Macarthur "they speak out against the gifts of the spirit and prosperity gospel" I heard him not dismiss the gifts of the spirit on more than one occasion which is partly why I respect him so much he does not dismiss the scriptures that talk about the gifts of the spirit as not being for today and he does not dismiss scripture that talks about punishment for those in habitual sin as not applicable to him he says if this describes you and your lifestyle you should be uncomfortable about your assurance of faith, I have been taught and believed that sickness is never from God But when your pastor who was preaching this to you dies of a massive heart attack still young and then you see his mentor die of stomach cancer years later you cant help but think God are you showing me this theology is wrong, and all around you people are saying well the devil comes to kill steal and destroy. your left bewildered what is God not able to protect his own is he not in control check out Pipers 2 part sermon on job it really shows that to be very wrong, My trouble with word of faith is not that it doesn't work God does indeed bless finically, and he can and does heal just not at our command as I was taught My biggest issue is its that it takes my eyes of Jesus ever so subtlety especially as a young believer and then you skip over verses live 1 john 2 v15 because everyone you are around loves the things of this world to I thank God for men like Piper had he not been so blunt and clear I'm sure I would have been found on judgment day to have made the things of this world my treasure I now pray daily to be kept from it
Understanding how our Savior chooses to save us is not stupid to most people in the comment section, however, thank you for commenting! We have no hard feelings toward Piper. He is our brother in Christ. We simply disagree with him when he claims our beliefs are dangerous.
FYI, there is nobody in hell today. Unless you mean the grave, but I know that your are speaking of your Greek mythological place of torment. The state of the dead, according to the word of God. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof *thou shalt surely die* {Genesis 2:17} Man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? ... So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their *sleep* O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, *until thy wrath be past* that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, 👉till my change come. ... His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. {Job 14:10, 12-14 & 21} And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my *flesh* shall I see God. {Job 19:26} Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {The Preacher 9:10} Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. {Psalm 146:3-4} Then said his disciples, Lord, if he *sleep* he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, "Lazarus is dead." {John 11:12-14} ... Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection 👉at the last day. Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet *shall* he live:" {John 11:24-25} But go thou thy way till the end be: for *thou shalt rest* and stand in thy lot *at the end of the days* {Daniel 12:13} For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him *should not perish* but have everlasting life. {John 3:16} And *the serpent said* unto the woman, *Ye shall not surely die* {Genesis 3:4} Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down *in the midst of the stones of fire* {Ezekiel 28:14} ^ (satan always turns the tables on God, for he is the father of lies.) The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; {Isaiah 33:14-15} If anyone errors in their understanding of this doctrine of the dead, then they will in no way be led to the understanding of the truth, for it will be a stumblingblock unto the decernment of spiritual things, including soilterology and eschatology.
I most certainly agree with you. Hell or (Sheol) in Hebrew simply means grave. The idea of a place of physical torment is birthed, in my opinion, from a lack of understanding regarding Jewish idiomatic language. In fact, the "Lake of Fire," or (Gehenna i.e., hell) in Greek, is a real graveyard in Israel, even to this day, but western Christianity is mostly unaware of this fact. In the 1st Century, the valley of (Gahenna) was used as a trash dump/graveyard. They kept the dump burning continually to get rid of the waste. The bodies of dead prisoners were regularly thrown into the pit to be burned up. This place developed into a Jewish idiom: The lake of fire. They used the term "Lake" because it was in the valley, and "Fire" because in continually burned. When the Bible speaks of people being "cast into the lake of fire," it is simply a Jewish idiom that conveys the idea of death that is permanent for those found guilty of their crimes. The idea of being cast into your final grave. And it is just that, to this day, a graveyard. Thank you for your comment! God bless!
You know all these Armenian believers are fearful of the predestination, foreordination, Elect adopted, and sovieign, ordained doctrines. Because if they weren't, they would just present their case in an apologetic way Instead of criticizing, belittling and sarcastic way they present their case.
Unbelievable but people can come up with in order to invent their own religion 🥴😳.... Like that stupid statement, "if God is sovereign, (here it comes) then he has already decided everything from the beginning. That is absolutely the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life... And I was born in the 50s 🤣🤣🤣 I think when God said "I change not""... That it means he is incapable of "changing his mind".... It's as if they sit around drinking wine never bothering to read the book! Can you imagine them at the judgment!?!? "But but but we did all this great stuff for you!'"... And since there's not a lot of readers out there I'll go ahead and tell you what Jesus response will be..."back off dudes I never knew you !"
God does NOT create evil/sin in the world. He ALLOWS it. Those are NOT the same. Calvinism (or Reformed theology) comes directly from the Bible. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Romans 3.10-12)
What is God allowing if not His own determinations on Calvinism? Do we determine the "sin" part of God's decree and God just determines all other things that come to pass? Is that what He is allowing? What do you mean?
Every person who God chose to save will be saved and will be with Christ for eternity. God chose who he would save. His selection was not dependent on anything the person would do later on. Since Adam rebelled, all men are born in a state of animosity toward God, and cannot become believers on their own.
@@beberean612 I gave statements that come directly from verses. If you are at all familiar with the bible, you recognize those verses. And don't call the doctrine Calvinism. Calvin didn't invent it, it's right in the bible. If you need a name for it, it's Monergism. And Arminius didn't invent Synergism, that's been around for as long as monergism, and has as many verses to support it as monergism does. I was in a church where the pastor believed that both are true and it's a paradox. I don't believe they can live together, one is actually biblical, the other is not. The passages for monergism can't be ignored. On the other hand, passages that seem to teach human cooperation in salvation can be seen as being the easy way to talk about what we are able to see happen while God's actions are invisible except for the effect. The earth revolves once every 24 hours, the sun does not rise and set. But even astronomers say 'sunrise.' Jesus told Nicodemus that the Holy Spirit causes people to be born again, and he does it to whoever he wills to do it to. We can't see it being done, but we see the result of a changed heart. We are to preach the gospel to everyone, and God is generous to give us credit for doing it, but the people who he saves were already destined to be saved by his plan and choice from before the beginning.
Your Calvinistic interpretation of those passages begs the question. Calvinism (is) a doctrine created by man. It is not (in) the Bible. It only attempts to systematically interpret the Bible. Call it whatever you want, it is not (in) the Bible, it interprets the Bible. Thank you for your comment and God bless!
It's not that you're wrong, you just need to remember that one verse can be interpreted five different ways, and only one interpretation is correct. Calvinism is a system through which Scripture is interpreted. We both believe Scripture supports our own view, so what does that prove? I could turn around and say the same thing back to you... if you knew your Bible, you would recognize those verses don't support Calvinism. It's low-level argumentation. If you believe your interpretation is correct over mine, why do you think that? That's the question you should be answering... That's the question you should be asking me. Not, "If you knew your Bible you would know Calvinism is true."
It is impossible to have faith in Christ without God regenerating (quickening aka born again) one to have faith. The dead the blind cannot walk or see apart from God awakening and making one see to have the Spirit of faith. Piper understood well rather it seems you are aloof to your Arminian autonomy.
@@beberean612 Your theology is Arminian albeit you deny such attributes. Piper was and is accurate simply stated your position that one can have faith in Christ apart from God embuing faith by regeneration of dead blind unregenerate humans is what autonomy represents. The dead cannot walk the blind cannot see and God alone predestines humans to life and sight TO have the capacity for faith in Christ to say otherwise is the Arminian Pelagian error.
For the first 19 years of my Christianity, I hated Calvinism. I belonged to an Independent Baptist Church. One day while debating Calvinism in my mind, I remembered Ephesians 2:1 in the KJV that reads "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespassed and sins;" At that point I realized that because I was spiritually dead I could not choose Christ as I previously thought. I immediately became a 5 point Calvinist. Modern translations of the Bible do not translate Ephesians 2:1 the same way as the KJV but Ephesians 2:4 - 5 also teach that we were born spiritually dead. I recommend that you purchase a copy of a video series called "Foundations of Grace" by Steven J. Lawson. He goes through the Old and New Testament to show that God is sovereign in election.
And why do you believe Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 prove Calvinism? Would you be willing to have a short discussion about this? Thank you for your comment and God bless!
@@beberean612 When someone is spiritually dead, how can they choose Christ as their Savior as Armenians believe? God has to enable a spiritually dead sinner to repent and choose Christ as their Savior by giving them life. When they have life they will choose Christ as their Savior. Instead of having a discussion with me, I suggest you buy the video series I recommended.
@@garysanders3653 Okay and thank you for you recommendation my friend, but before we part, please hear me out. During my 18 years as a 5-Point Calvinist, it was difficult for me to see this. Why do you believe what you believe about Spiritual deadness? Is it not because of the Calvinistic interpretation of Spiritual deadness? After all, we have a completely different view of what "deadness" means. And so, your argument begs the question... "Is the Calvinist interpretation of Spiritual deadness the correct interpretation?"
@@beberean612 Ephesians 2:1 in the ESV reads "And you we were dead in the trespasses and sins..." There is no mention of spiritual death. Since we were not physically dead I believe this refers to spiritual death. I can assure you that I am not the same man that I was before being saved 40 years ago. I am spiritually alive. Prior to that I was spiritually dead having no interest in the things of GOD. Now let me ask you a far more important question. How would you tell someone to know 100% sure that heaven was their home when they pass out of this life? If you decide to answer my question go into detail with your answer.
@@garysanders3653 Praise God we are both different men then we were my brother! We certainly received new life. Now, why do you think your new life resulted in faith, instead of your faith resulting in new life? Remember what Scripture says, "But these are written so that you may (believe) that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that (by believing) you may (have life) in his name." John 20:31 It doesn't say, "but these are written so that you may (have life) in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and by (having life) you may (believe) in his name." What are your thoughts?
I'm not sure who is speaking the most nonsense. The guy in the video or the guy narrating the video. They both sound spiritually lost! IMHO they both need to get back to the basics of Salvation, how to get saved and how to stay saved, and leave the rest to God!
Your opinion doesn't come across as humble at all. We are brothers in the Lord, and it is okay to disagree with a brother when he says your belief is dangerous. Thank you for your comment and God bless!
@@beberean612 My opinion was stated in such a way as to stop people in their tracks and make them think. The nonsense they are espousing is man made theology. For me to consider anyone a brother or sister in the Lord they need to offer God's proof that that is the case. Repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Spirit and walking in Christ. Those people are my brethren!
Now I've finished the video. Apparently, if the Be Berean group doesn't believe that, then Piper was not talking about the Be Berean group at all. This seems like an expression of paranoia on the part of the Be Berean group. It's like if someone got up and spoke about groups that go around littering, and I got on the defensive saying that Piper doesn't really understand my group at all because actually my group does not litter.
We believe that is the mistake the Pharisees were making in the 1st Century, believing that election was only about being part of a nation. "Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham." Gal 3:7 The context of Piper's rebuke was against the "Corporate" view of election (through faith), held by many Biblical Scholars today. He was not rebuking the Jews, he was rebuking Christian Scholars who teach corporate elect through faith, which makes a lot of sense and is directly opposed to Unconditional Election.
@@beberean612 That is to mean that Christendom replaced Israel allowing Anglo Replacement Theology. (England is now the elect nation as the king is head of the Church.) I am personally Messianic and find it only antisemitism. Paul appears to say that those who trust in Messiah become part of the State of Israel like the Bedouin.
@@matthewmorrisdon5491 No not replaced. Paul says we gentiles, a wild olive tree, have been grafted into the cultivated olive tree. The two sticks have been brought together as prophesied. We are saying that true Israel has always been those who have the faith of Abraham, not simply those descended from Abraham, and we (gentiles) are grafted in as one of God's chosen people too, through the faith of Abraham, and belief in the promise God gave to him. I'm sorry you feel this is antisemitic. We love all people, and this is simply not true. I regret that you feel this way.
@@beberean612 God elected the nation of Israel. Heaven and hell are based one's faith in Messiah. I have a feeling that being Messianic that I know more about this. Replacement Theology is antisemitism.
@@matthewmorrisdon5491 That is not what we are teaching. I agree, salvation depends only on Messiah, who is the child of the promise God gave to Abraham. That's what I mean by the "faith of Abraham." God promised to bless the whole earth through his (S)eed. That is not antisemitism. That is ridiculous.
We would agree grace comes before faith. Grace to send us His Holy inspired Word through the prophets, the grace of Jesus coming to earth and dying for our sins, the grace of the Holy Spirit sent to convict the world of sin, grace in giving us the ability to make rational choices... the grace list goes on and on. Just because it can be demonstrated on both positions that grace comes before faith, it does not therefore follow that regeneration comes before faith, which is the true point of contention.
You're opening statement is amenian do focus on their own will over God and His purpose. If you don't think so, go read the comments of those who believe like you. You have no faith unless God gives you faith. Heb.12: 2a looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
Excellent arguments.
Lucifer decided, Adam and Eve decided, the rich man decided, Jesus couldn't gather Israel like the hen with her chickens even though He wanted.
God wants everyone to be saved through faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. But each individual has to make a decision. That's why there is a Judgment day. Believe in Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
Calvinism and Armenianism had divided the Body of Christ for too long.
And that's why we are promoting a different way of understanding election, the way it would be understood in the first century.
Great analogy. The one I use is similar.
Instead of America and freedom, I use a plane and a destination.
You absolutely just cannot make up the double talk of these arrogant calvinist teachers, completely irrational thought processes, FULL of contradictions, the blindness is ASTOUNDING!!
good analogy...my eyes and ears see and hear theater when Piper speaks
Thank you for watching and commenting my friend! God bless!
Thanks for teaching the true gospel.
God bless you! Thank you for commenting!
Other calvinists may not be, but John Piper IS deceptive.
Maybe so, or maybe he is just so used to the echo chamber that he can't see it.
@@beberean612 read his critiques of other views, and you’ll usually find lies or fallacies within the first paragraph. I’m a Calvinist myself, but I can’t stand to read or listen to John Piper.
Thank you for your comment my brother and God bless!
Piper has been off his rocker for a while, WAY too arrogant.
Thank you for commenting! God bless!
Can’t say I ever had the highest opinion of John Piper to begin with.
We’re safe if our corporation is in Christ, that’ll preach brother🫵🏼
Thank you for your comment! God bless!
Of course he is attacking a strawman
Yes, because the "real" corporate election would give him a run for his money.
According to Eph. 1:5 our election in Christ is based on the good pleasure of God's will and not our faith. Our covenant union with Christ is the source of the spiritual blessings that
we as the people of God possess. Also, I would point out that your idea of cooperate election will not fit children who die in infancy.
So apparently I've believed in corporate election for a long time without knowing what it is called. 😅 Thank you for the clarity. By the way, misrepresentation of theological positions and strawmen is extremely common among Calvinists these days. Haha
Most certainly! It is the sign of a weak argument.
You believed it without knowing what it was called because it’s just simple biblical truth. Lol!
@@Lament8765 I agree. I don’t think you are following the conversation. We are agreeing with corporate election in Christ for whosoever will. Not with the false Calvinist unconditional and irresistible election to salvation.
@@obrien709 Well said!
I totally agree with you very well explained.I just don’t understand how man of such knowledge and teachers of the Bible read the same Bible and have different conclusions and views it baffles my mind because what you said makes perfect sense to me.
Thank you for commenting and God bless!
I appreciate your explanation. I’ve never heard this before, but it is bringing up some passages in my mind that have made me wonder quite a bit. Going to read and pray with this in mind.
Amen! God bless you my friend and thank you for commenting!
Actually Calvinism is a corporate election, selecting a group of God loved respected persons before they are born, and rejecting a group of God hated people before they are born
That's a corporate election
Indeed. We (all) believe we are safe in the corporation of Christ. That's what's so bizarre about Piper's claims, and why I believe this is nothing more than a strawman. The question is (how) we get into that corporation. Calvinists believe it is because of God's decree, Armenians believe it is because of foreseen faith, and we believe it is only through faith. Yes, we believe God knew who the elect would be, but we simply do not believe that was a factor in election itself. We believe the only factor, that God determined before the foundation of the world, was being (in Christ).
God is no respecter of persons.
@@larrybedouin2921 he is, according to Calvinism predestination of an elect group for salvation before creation and passing over the majority for certain hell with no chance ever if being saved by Jesus blood because it was not shed for them.
They are articles for destruction doomed from the womb for hell for God's glory according to John Calvin.
This makes God a respecter of a person.
Prove me wrong.
@@larrybedouin2921 Thank you for your comment. God bless!
I really like that analogy. It also works in the same way as Ephesians 1. Good job!
God bless you! Thank you for commenting!
Ephesians 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
If you are chosen for salvation before the world begins; then you are also sealed before the world begins.However, the faithful are sealed by God after He chooses to acknowledge their faith.
Boom!!! Glad there's a Bible reader in here 🙏🙏
Amen brother! Well said and thank you for commenting! God bless!
A short extract from a John Wesley quotation:
"God knows that man sins; for He knows all things: Yet we do not sin because He knows it, but He knows it because we sin; and His knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it".
Well said my friend! Great quote! God bless you and thank you for commenting!
If Corporate Election is easy to refute, why create a Strawman?
Great question.
@@obrien709 Thank you for your comment! God bless!
How can Piper possibly believe that the teaching of corporate election "sends" people to hell if calvinism is true?? isnt he supposed to believe your eternal destiny was decided before the world began? if so, what he says here is crazy! he speaks as if we have a "choice"! he says his version of calvinism "is all about the heart", but calvinism teaches the heart is so depraved that i cant respond to the gospel. so please someone from the reformed camp, tell me how you circle this square
Great point!
God changes your heart and you naturally desire Him. Ezekiel 36
@@williamwagoner7857 again, if God "changes your heart" then there is still no choice. when the calvinist says that phrase they mean "changes your will" forcibly. it cannot be otherwise if salvation is "unconditional" and "irresistable"
He talks about people believing they're saved because they "belong to some institution," and that honestly makes me think that he doesn't actually have any idea what corporate election even is in the first place.
Yes, and there is something fishy going on, because this is becoming a trend within Calvinistic circles.
Which is more damaging? The theory of a triune essence shared by 3 persons or the theory that a Loving Father predestined the major majority of His creation to be doomed without a chance? If a person is zealously defending such irrationalities, we can know they do not know God.
Wow, never heard Piper so shouty before.
Corporate election gets him going for some reason... Hmmm...
Thank you for commenting and God bless!
You got it right at 6:30... First thing I understood in the video... read the Bible Bunches of times.... It is always about individual salvation... He told Ezekiel to be a sign to all of Israel... And then told him even if he had two of the most holiest men ever on either side of him.... Only his righteousness would save him.
Amen brother!
2:50 He's so inconsistent it's laughable... First, he writes a book entitled "Don't Waste Your Life"... as if someone's life determined by God himself could be 'wasted'. Now, he suggests there are people in Hell today for some other reason than the eternal, unchangeable, decree of God from before the foundation of the world.😎😎 If his own doctrine is true... how can that be???? He says there are more people in Hell because of the "false securities of cooperate thinking than because of over individualizing the doctrine of salvation".... THAT IS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO HIS OWN PROFESSION THAT GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE BECAUSE HE PERFORMS THE FUTURE. And it completely undermines the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election. If Calvinism is true, no one is in Hell than for any other reason than God created them for eternal destruction and his own glory. DOES THIS MAN EVER ACTUALLY LISTEN TO HIMSELF🤔🤔
It's called cognitive dissonance.
@@primeobjective5469 Yes. Mysteriously, Calvinists are impervious to it. I think it must be their 'super power'.🤔
@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT -- The pride in their hardened hearts hinders them from recognizing their error. Even logic doesn't help them, when it should.
"You will recompense them O, Lord, according to the work of their hands. You will give them hardness of heart. Your curse will be on them."
-Lamentations 3:64-65
@@primeobjective5469 Calvinism appeals to to some that way. Everybody's got a weak link, Satan knows exactly how to attack that weakness in everyone. He has a toolbox full of tools crafted for that purpose. Calvinism is just another tool that he uses for those susceptible to it. One thing that captures some is the seduction of claiming to 'understand' something about God which others do not. Calvinism gives them that AND the greatest plausible deniability is that God "did it" to them and they had nothing to do with it 🤷🏻♂. It isn't true, but they have become convinced it is.
I love it when Paul says, “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works” (2 Timothy 4:14, kjv ).... I always laugh a bit when I read that one. 🤣🤣
He does know what he is talking about. Just because you circled a date on a calendar does not guarantee salvation. Jesus says, we must take up our cross daily. 5 points of Calvinism is a dangerous doctrine. Some of you may say, well, how many sins does it take to lose one's salvation. Christ died for all our sins, the ones we have committed and the ones we are going to commit. When Christ saved us, He saved us for eternity however, He didn't take our freedom of choice. Man can and does decide if he continues too walk with the Lord.
Of course he doesn't understand. His own view is ALL saved people were saved unilaterally and arbitrarily by God prior to any fallen state or sins. All the rest God condemns to be sinners by decree, and sends them a message to repent of what God decreed for them to be which they cannot respond to by decree.
God on Calvanism is double minded and self contradictory.
Well said! In order to believe in Calvinism, one must abandon logic and reason. I did for over 18 years.
@@beberean612 Don't feel bad I was an atheist before God slapped upside the head (like a good dad should when his kid is being silly). I cut my teeth on determinism there.
@@malvokaquila6768 I understand. My determinism almost led me into atheism when the thought came into my mind... If God has determined all things that come to pass, has He determined my hypocrisy? I told myself, "My hypocrisy is a thing that has come to pass." And was it God who determined for this thought to come into my mind? This thought is a thing that has come to pass. Why would God determine this for one of His elect? Am I elect?
Calvinisim taught the way of John Calvin is as dangerous as Kenneth Copland. Most Calvinist truly don't understand what it teaches. God bless you 🙏
Thank you for your comment! God bless you my friend!
John Calvin was more in line with Ian Paisley.
copland is horrible human
Why do you say that? It seems to me that Calvinism is the exact opposite of what the prosperity liars like Copeland preach.
Copeland and his ilk say that we can speak our reality into existence, that we basically are Gods.
Calvinism says that we are so unlike God, so far fallen, that God can barely be bothered to pay attention to us, much less save us from our depravity. The fact that he does is a testament to his divine mercy.
@@michalmichalski4152 Copeland those NOT teach calvenisim or any bible truth
I think it’s incredibly that people just take Calvinism as the truth without going to the source of who was John Calvin,what was he like and what he actually did and believed because if you did you’d be shocked. People find it easy to call out JWs after reading about Rutherford and Russell and there beliefs well it’s the same with Calvin if not worse,don’t trust me go right on line and find out for yourself how he distorted the words of our lord to fit his narrative and the consequences of how complicit he was in the deaths of people who disagreed with him.as I said you will be shocked.
Right on !!
Thank you for your comment!
Could you give some resources please. I can’t seem to find anything online. Thanks!
At minute 1:30-1:45, Piper speaks about those who criticize his group saying that they make too much about the individual heart. But Be Berean apparently neither criticizes Piper's group in that way, nor disagrees with Piper. Be Berean also stresses it being about the individual heart, according to the video, so Be Berean would not be criticizing Piper's group on that basis. Piper is obviously talking about other scholars and other critics, and not including Be Berean in that category. Just because Be Berean believes in corporate election, does not mean that corporate election fits what Piper is talking about when Piper describes his critics.
Hello friend! Piper is speaking out against the teaching of corporate election regarding salvation, which is a view held by many people throughout history. We are simply representing them, because we are included with them. You are not wrong in what you are saying, but I believe you may be missing the forest for the trees my brother. Even though there are some nuances within corporate election, as with any view, there is no version of corporate election I am aware of that teaches we are safe in our corporateness, outside of Christ, presumably, as (within Christ) would affirm and accurately represent our position, and ultimately it would remove the basis for the argument. In other words, Piper's argument self-destructs if "safe in our corporateness" means safe because of the corporation of Christ. This is a common debate tactic called a Strawman. It confuses the audience into believing one position has defeated the other, by creating a similar yet fundamentally different version of the opposing position, and defeating that version, claiming victory over that position. But you can't just beat up a strawman that looks like the real Royce Gracie, and actually claim victory over the real Royce Gracie, but from a distance and in the right lighting, you may be able to fool someone watching. Thank you for your comment!
And Ephesians 2 says that gentiles, when they believe, move from being separated from the commonwealth of Israel, to being brought near by the blood of Christ. Brought near to what? The commonwealth of Israel. Making gentiles a part of Gods chosen people Israel. Paul is even more clear in Gal 3 when he says that we gentiles who believe are children of Abraham. Cooperate election preserves the doctrine of election without ANY of the problems of Calvinism.
I'm about halfway through this, and am struggling with what the conflict is. Calvinists have often touted corporate salvation, like when they go on about being in the family line of believers, baptized into a covenant family, quoting verses about saving many generations when someone in the family line is righteous. And the narrator of the video is saying that his group does stress individual salvation, not corporate. So if his group stresses individual salvation, and so does John Piper, then Piper is not speaking against his group at all. Why be on the defensive? Why not join Piper and agree with him that Calvinists should not put so much emphasis on corporate salvation?
I would recommend re-watch the section with the analogy. Real Corporate election relates to individual salvation, yes, but is not the point of contention. The true point of contention was never addresses, because Piper was too busy confusing you, as he punched, and licked, and choked-out his own strawman. The true point of contention is this. Corporate election makes a lot of sense, and when people really understand what it is, those who converted to Calvinism because they were unsatisfied with (Conditional Election) might go, wait a minute... that makes more sense than Calvinism! So, to keep this from happening, Piper created a fictious version of corporate election, that doesn't exist, "Now look! I defeated Corporate Election!"
I would encourage you all to read your bibles. There are scriptures that support arminianism, yes. However there are so many more that support calvinism. Do you just ignore those scriptures? You would have to in order to accept these teachings. Read your bibles people. I pray for you all.
At 2:30-2:38, Piper has not mentioned corporate election at all, nor has he called out Be Berean by name. Piper has said "corporate thinking", but it is obviously a specific kind of "corporate thinking" that is carried out neither by Piper nor by Be Berean, so we're all good, right?
Piper is referring to the corporate view of election which we, and many others hold to, and he is calling it dangerous. But the "version" of corporate election Piper put forward is a Strawman. A "Strawman" is a common debate tactic, used to confuse the audience into believing one position over another, by creating a similar, yet weaker version of the opposing position, and defeating that weaker version. Like making a Strawman that looks like big ole' Billy Bob, beating that Strawman up on stage for everyone to see, and claiming victory over Billy Bob, when Billy Bob himself might put a hurtin on you. Thank you for your comment! God Bless!
There can be no such thing as corporate election.
There can be no such thing as unconditional election.
@@beberean612 Non-sequitur.
@@lawrence1318 No it isn't. I was begging the question so you can understand how pointless it is to use fallacious arguments, like saying there can be no such thing as corporate election. A non-sequitur would be like saying, if unconditional election is false, God isn't sovereign. That's a non-sequitur, when the conclusion does not follow the premises.
@@beberean612 There can be no such thing as corporate election, for there is no such thing as a whole without the parts that make it up. Once you elect individuals, the multitude they happen to form is irrelevant and immaterial.
@@lawrence1318 This is a fundamental misunderstanding and caricature of corporate election. The election takes place in real time, when we place your faith in Christ, not before the foundation of the world. When someone puts their faith in Christ, they enter into the (corporation) of Christ. The only way what you are saying could hold any water is if God chose people before the foundation of the world to (be) in the corporation... But that's not corporate election at all, that's just Calvinism.
Nowhere in this video did I hear the answer to the implied question: How many Angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Stop trying to let God off the hook. A God who does not know absolutely everything is not God. And besides, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life." Is John Piper not one of the 'whosoever' because he doesn't believe what you believe concerning God's ignorance?
Piper is our brother in the Lord, and we love him. We simply disagree with him when he says our view is dangerous.
@@beberean612 Might I suggest private correspondence with him then. Public feuds over scripture interpretation do not help the cause of Christ.
@@johnnolen8338 We love Piper. This is not a feud; it is a disagreement. He is attacking our view publicly as being dangerous, we are defending ourselves by simply stating the facts of our position. I think Piper is the one you need to speak with. Thank you for your comment and God bless!
@@beberean612 Okay. I accept that. For what it's worth I don't need to speak with anybody. I don't have a complaint with either one of you. I just don't think that arguing semantics when there's a world dying and going to hell is of very much value. The cross of Christ is all that counts.
I get where you are coming from, I don't agree with all of pipers theology the parts where he talks about God willing or choosing evil to exist and some other parts too about us not having ability to choose, I don't know where I fit I'm not Calvinist, my back ground was word of faith but over the last 11 years or so I've been on a journey away from that and in the last 5 or so years Piper has been the one the Lord has used to throw me a life raft that I've clung too. he is certainly Not a silent watch dog giving no warning when danger comes, I wrestle with what you talked about because I see Jesus tell his disciples you have been permitted to understand but others have not. or paul laying it out in Rom 9 and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen. and yet I know there can be no salvation without me choosing to obey God Paul's writings are full of warnings Jesus in revelations gives warnings to the church's IF you do not then I will so Im still trying to fit it all together. But one thing I thank the Lord for is Pipers Voice on making Jesus My treasure on that I have no disagreement with him
Thankyou for your post I you sound like someone who reasons things through I look forward to watching you again
Thank you for your comment! Of course, we have non-Calvinist interpretations for all of the passages you mentioned, including Romans 9. Remember, we all believe Scripture is our ultimate authority, it's only the Calvinistic interpretation that we are speaking out against. God Bless!
Hey I am the same.
I believe in a lot of what word if faith teaches but the biggest area is not serotology as the believe that we are saved by faith through grace. The biggest issue I have is the way they represent the blessings and provision of God.
But with Calvinistic teachers like Piper and John McArthur are confusing at best. On onenhabe they speak out against the gifts of the spirit and prosperity gospel which is highly misrepresented like corporate and individual election.
IE their defence of thier view by representing the other side inconsistently and usually with no scriptural backing.
I agree with the video it highly irresponsible the way Piper and McArthur represent the opposing side.
As with your word if faith experience. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
My take on it is like this.
1. God desires all to be blessed.
After all why would God send His son. The Word is full of promises that say God will look after all your needs. And provide both spiritually and physically.
2. There are conditions to the blessings
a) you must be a child of God
b) you must be seeking Him first
3) Blessings/Provision come only because of who God is. Not because we give but because God keeps His word.
3) 0pinion: God's blessings only come because God is first in our lives. (See old testament principals) in the old testament and new we reap what we sow. None of God's provisions come unless we seek Him first Mat6:33
Thank you for your comment my friend! Well said!
@@HKFromAbove Im not sure Id put Piper in the same camp as Macarthur
"they speak out against the gifts of the spirit and prosperity gospel"
I heard him not dismiss the gifts of the spirit on more than one occasion which is partly why I respect him so much he does not dismiss the scriptures that talk about the gifts of the spirit as not being for today and he does not dismiss scripture that talks about punishment for those in habitual sin as not applicable to him he says if this describes you and your lifestyle you should be uncomfortable about your assurance of faith,
I have been taught and believed that sickness is never from God But when your pastor who was preaching this to you dies of a massive heart attack still young and then you see his mentor die of stomach cancer years later you cant help but think God are you showing me this theology is wrong, and all around you people are saying well the devil comes to kill steal and destroy. your left bewildered what is God not able to protect his own is he not in control check out Pipers 2 part sermon on job it really shows that to be very wrong,
My trouble with word of faith is not that it doesn't work God does indeed bless finically, and he can and does heal just not at our command as I was taught My biggest issue is its that it takes my eyes of Jesus ever so subtlety especially as a young believer and then you skip over verses live 1 john 2 v15 because everyone you are around loves the things of this world to I thank God for men like Piper had he not been so blunt and clear I'm sure I would have been found on judgment day to have made the things of this world my treasure I now pray daily to be kept from it
Yes, and I also agree with a lot of what Piper has to say. I view Piper as a brother in Christ. I only disagree with him on his view of soteriology.
Arguing about this kind of stuff is stupid.
Understanding how our Savior chooses to save us is not stupid to most people in the comment section, however, thank you for commenting! We have no hard feelings toward Piper. He is our brother in Christ. We simply disagree with him when he claims our beliefs are dangerous.
FYI, there is nobody in hell today.
Unless you mean the grave, but I know that your are speaking of your Greek mythological place of torment.
The state of the dead, according to the word of God.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof *thou shalt surely die*
{Genesis 2:17}
Man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
...
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their *sleep*
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, *until thy wrath be past* that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
👉till my change come.
...
His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
{Job 14:10, 12-14 & 21}
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my *flesh* shall I see God.
{Job 19:26}
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
{The Preacher 9:10}
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
{Psalm 146:3-4}
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he *sleep* he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, "Lazarus is dead."
{John 11:12-14}
...
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection
👉at the last day.
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet *shall* he live:"
{John 11:24-25}
But go thou thy way till the end be: for *thou shalt rest* and stand in thy lot *at the end of the days*
{Daniel 12:13}
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him *should not perish* but have everlasting life.
{John 3:16}
And *the serpent said* unto the woman, *Ye shall not surely die*
{Genesis 3:4}
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down *in the midst of the stones of fire*
{Ezekiel 28:14}
^
(satan always turns the tables on God, for he is the father of lies.)
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
{Isaiah 33:14-15}
If anyone errors in their understanding of this doctrine of the dead, then they will in no way be led to the understanding of the truth, for it will be a stumblingblock unto the decernment of spiritual things, including soilterology and eschatology.
I most certainly agree with you. Hell or (Sheol) in Hebrew simply means grave. The idea of a place of physical torment is birthed, in my opinion, from a lack of understanding regarding Jewish idiomatic language. In fact, the "Lake of Fire," or (Gehenna i.e., hell) in Greek, is a real graveyard in Israel, even to this day, but western Christianity is mostly unaware of this fact. In the 1st Century, the valley of (Gahenna) was used as a trash dump/graveyard. They kept the dump burning continually to get rid of the waste. The bodies of dead prisoners were regularly thrown into the pit to be burned up. This place developed into a Jewish idiom: The lake of fire. They used the term "Lake" because it was in the valley, and "Fire" because in continually burned. When the Bible speaks of people being "cast into the lake of fire," it is simply a Jewish idiom that conveys the idea of death that is permanent for those found guilty of their crimes. The idea of being cast into your final grave. And it is just that, to this day, a graveyard. Thank you for your comment! God bless!
You know all these Armenian believers are fearful of the predestination, foreordination, Elect adopted, and sovieign, ordained doctrines. Because if they weren't, they would just present their case in an apologetic way
Instead of criticizing, belittling and sarcastic way they present their case.
Right on!
Unbelievable but people can come up with in order to invent their own religion 🥴😳.... Like that stupid statement, "if God is sovereign, (here it comes) then he has already decided everything from the beginning. That is absolutely the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life... And I was born in the 50s 🤣🤣🤣 I think when God said "I change not""... That it means he is incapable of "changing his mind".... It's as if they sit around drinking wine never bothering to read the book! Can you imagine them at the judgment!?!? "But but but we did all this great stuff for you!'"... And since there's not a lot of readers out there I'll go ahead and tell you what Jesus response will be..."back off dudes I never knew you !"
God does NOT create evil/sin in the world. He ALLOWS it. Those are NOT the same. Calvinism (or Reformed theology) comes directly from the Bible. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Romans 3.10-12)
What is God allowing if not His own determinations on Calvinism? Do we determine the "sin" part of God's decree and God just determines all other things that come to pass? Is that what He is allowing? What do you mean?
Every person who God chose to save will be saved and will be with Christ for eternity. God chose who he would save. His selection was not dependent on anything the person would do later on.
Since Adam rebelled, all men are born in a state of animosity toward God, and cannot become believers on their own.
You can't just state what Calvinism teaches as a reason to believe it.
@@beberean612
I gave statements that come directly from verses. If you are at all familiar with the bible, you recognize those verses.
And don't call the doctrine Calvinism. Calvin didn't invent it, it's right in the bible. If you need a name for it, it's Monergism. And Arminius didn't invent Synergism, that's been around for as long as monergism, and has as many verses to support it as monergism does.
I was in a church where the pastor believed that both are true and it's a paradox. I don't believe they can live together, one is actually biblical, the other is not. The passages for monergism can't be ignored. On the other hand, passages that seem to teach human cooperation in salvation can be seen as being the easy way to talk about what we are able to see happen while God's actions are invisible except for the effect. The earth revolves once every 24 hours, the sun does not rise and set. But even astronomers say 'sunrise.'
Jesus told Nicodemus that the Holy Spirit causes people to be born again, and he does it to whoever he wills to do it to. We can't see it being done, but we see the result of a changed heart. We are to preach the gospel to everyone, and God is generous to give us credit for doing it, but the people who he saves were already destined to be saved by his plan and choice from before the beginning.
Your Calvinistic interpretation of those passages begs the question. Calvinism (is) a doctrine created by man. It is not (in) the Bible. It only attempts to systematically interpret the Bible. Call it whatever you want, it is not (in) the Bible, it interprets the Bible. Thank you for your comment and God bless!
@@beberean612
Great rebuttal if you believe that you win by just saying that I am wrong.
It's not that you're wrong, you just need to remember that one verse can be interpreted five different ways, and only one interpretation is correct. Calvinism is a system through which Scripture is interpreted. We both believe Scripture supports our own view, so what does that prove? I could turn around and say the same thing back to you... if you knew your Bible, you would recognize those verses don't support Calvinism. It's low-level argumentation. If you believe your interpretation is correct over mine, why do you think that? That's the question you should be answering... That's the question you should be asking me. Not, "If you knew your Bible you would know Calvinism is true."
It is impossible to have faith in Christ without God regenerating (quickening aka born again) one to have faith. The dead the blind cannot walk or see apart from God awakening and making one see to have the Spirit of faith. Piper understood well rather it seems you are aloof to your Arminian autonomy.
I'm not Arminian, and everything you said begs the question. It's just another example of a weak argument, like the one Piper is putting forward.
@@beberean612 Your theology is Arminian albeit you deny such attributes. Piper was and is accurate simply stated your position that one can have faith in Christ apart from God embuing faith by regeneration of dead blind unregenerate humans is what autonomy represents. The dead cannot walk the blind cannot see and God alone predestines humans to life and sight TO have the capacity for faith in Christ to say otherwise is the Arminian Pelagian error.
@@GusdabereanHXO Again, I am not Arminian.
@@beberean612 well you’re certainly not Calvinist or Reformed
@@GusdabereanHXO Praise God not anymore... after 18 years.
For the first 19 years of my Christianity, I hated Calvinism. I belonged to an Independent Baptist Church. One day while debating Calvinism in my mind, I remembered Ephesians 2:1 in the KJV that reads "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespassed and sins;" At that point I realized that because I was spiritually dead I could not choose Christ as I previously thought. I immediately became a 5 point Calvinist. Modern translations of the Bible do not translate Ephesians 2:1 the same way as the KJV but Ephesians 2:4 - 5 also teach that we were born spiritually dead. I recommend that you purchase a copy of a video series called "Foundations of Grace" by Steven J. Lawson. He goes through the Old and New Testament to show that God is sovereign in election.
And why do you believe Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 prove Calvinism? Would you be willing to have a short discussion about this? Thank you for your comment and God bless!
@@beberean612 When someone is spiritually dead, how can they choose Christ as their Savior as Armenians believe? God has to enable a spiritually dead sinner to repent and choose Christ as their Savior by giving them life. When they have life they will choose Christ as their Savior. Instead of having a discussion with me, I suggest you buy the video series I recommended.
@@garysanders3653 Okay and thank you for you recommendation my friend, but before we part, please hear me out. During my 18 years as a 5-Point Calvinist, it was difficult for me to see this. Why do you believe what you believe about Spiritual deadness? Is it not because of the Calvinistic interpretation of Spiritual deadness? After all, we have a completely different view of what "deadness" means. And so, your argument begs the question... "Is the Calvinist interpretation of Spiritual deadness the correct interpretation?"
@@beberean612 Ephesians 2:1 in the ESV reads "And you we were dead in the trespasses and sins..." There is no mention of spiritual death. Since we were not physically dead I believe this refers to spiritual death. I can assure you that I am not the same man that I was before being saved 40 years ago. I am spiritually alive. Prior to that I was spiritually dead having no interest in the things of GOD. Now let me ask you a far more important question. How would you tell someone to know 100% sure that heaven was their home when they pass out of this life? If you decide to answer my question go into detail with your answer.
@@garysanders3653 Praise God we are both different men then we were my brother! We certainly received new life. Now, why do you think your new life resulted in faith, instead of your faith resulting in new life? Remember what Scripture says,
"But these are written so that you may (believe) that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that (by believing) you may (have life) in his name." John 20:31
It doesn't say, "but these are written so that you may (have life) in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and by (having life) you may (believe) in his name."
What are your thoughts?
I'm not sure who is speaking the most nonsense. The guy in the video or the guy narrating the video.
They both sound spiritually lost!
IMHO they both need to get back to the basics of Salvation, how to get saved and how to stay saved, and leave the rest to God!
Your opinion doesn't come across as humble at all. We are brothers in the Lord, and it is okay to disagree with a brother when he says your belief is dangerous. Thank you for your comment and God bless!
@@beberean612 My opinion was stated in such a way as to stop people in their tracks and make them think. The nonsense they are espousing is man made theology.
For me to consider anyone a brother or sister in the Lord they need to offer God's proof that that is the case.
Repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Spirit and walking in Christ.
Those people are my brethren!
Now I've finished the video. Apparently, if the Be Berean group doesn't believe that, then Piper was not talking about the Be Berean group at all. This seems like an expression of paranoia on the part of the Be Berean group. It's like if someone got up and spoke about groups that go around littering, and I got on the defensive saying that Piper doesn't really understand my group at all because actually my group does not litter.
Thank you for commenting. Just refer to my last response on your other comment. God bless!
I believe in luck. Disprove me.
By luck, do you mean fate?
@@beberean612 Yes. Election is part of the doctrine of sovereignty. I used to be a Calvinist,but my mom died and I don't want to blame God.
I understand. Thank you for commenting! God bless and my condolences.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Par for the course. Every anti Calvinist video I find is just hatred unloaded.
Empty rhetoric...
Corporate Election normally has to do with nations not people. Most Israeli are not religious, but the state is beyond fate in the hands of God.
We believe that is the mistake the Pharisees were making in the 1st Century, believing that election was only about being part of a nation.
"Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham." Gal 3:7
The context of Piper's rebuke was against the "Corporate" view of election (through faith), held by many Biblical Scholars today. He was not rebuking the Jews, he was rebuking Christian Scholars who teach corporate elect through faith, which makes a lot of sense and is directly opposed to Unconditional Election.
@@beberean612 That is to mean that Christendom replaced Israel allowing Anglo Replacement Theology. (England is now the elect nation as the king is head of the Church.) I am personally Messianic and find it only antisemitism. Paul appears to say that those who trust in Messiah become part of the State of Israel like the Bedouin.
@@matthewmorrisdon5491 No not replaced. Paul says we gentiles, a wild olive tree, have been grafted into the cultivated olive tree. The two sticks have been brought together as prophesied. We are saying that true Israel has always been those who have the faith of Abraham, not simply those descended from Abraham, and we (gentiles) are grafted in as one of God's chosen people too, through the faith of Abraham, and belief in the promise God gave to him. I'm sorry you feel this is antisemitic. We love all people, and this is simply not true. I regret that you feel this way.
@@beberean612 God elected the nation of Israel. Heaven and hell are based one's faith in Messiah. I have a feeling that being Messianic that I know more about this. Replacement Theology is antisemitism.
@@matthewmorrisdon5491 That is not what we are teaching. I agree, salvation depends only on Messiah, who is the child of the promise God gave to Abraham. That's what I mean by the "faith of Abraham." God promised to bless the whole earth through his (S)eed. That is not antisemitism. That is ridiculous.
Bible only teaches Grace before Faith. Theology Proper
God "is" sovereign !!!
We would agree grace comes before faith. Grace to send us His Holy inspired Word through the prophets, the grace of Jesus coming to earth and dying for our sins, the grace of the Holy Spirit sent to convict the world of sin, grace in giving us the ability to make rational choices... the grace list goes on and on. Just because it can be demonstrated on both positions that grace comes before faith, it does not therefore follow that regeneration comes before faith, which is the true point of contention.
God gives the grace--- we through faith need to respond!
@@lloydandbethbeiler8127 Amen, and thank you for commenting!
You're opening statement is amenian do focus on their own will over God and His purpose.
If you don't think so, go read the comments of those who believe like you.
You have no faith unless God gives you faith. Heb.12: 2a looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
Ah, Calvinists and their proof texts. Context always kills proof texts.
I would love to ask you about this via email if possible.
Kevin Bratton