BESPOKE - Why are TANKS so TOXIC in MMOs? Bespoke 1.4 Ashes of Creation
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
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Ashes of Creation is an open world MMORPG set in a fantasy environment where you can choose different classes and races to adventure through with your friends. Intrepid Studios is the developer behind the game. They’re technically an indie studio, but their creative director Steven Sharif has a clear vision for his video game: Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game. He wants to put the massive back in MMO. Exploring dungeons, griding for gear, crafting armor/weapons, learning new spells, and competing in large scale PvP battles. High end PvE such as raids will mainly occur in the open world. Bosses will spawn and roam through the land. Are YOU ready to enter the world of Verra? 
Игры
I've been playing mmo's for over 2 decades. Tanks are rarely the toxic ones, the most toxic players are "easy" dps classes, i.e. classes that get access to a wide range of items, can beat most content by being afk and think this makes them good players. Very occasionally I see toxic healers, but most of the time the dps are the toxic oens, because they have something to prove, while a good tank is there to help people succeed. Most dps just want to parse, and parsing high usually means you need to surround yourselves with vastly lower skilled players. If someone says tanks are toxic they themselves are 100% the cause of 90% of the drama they think is going on.
That use to be the case. Now that parsing high has become such pop culture it's causing people to DPS pull and rush like never before.
Straight up invalidating the tanks, wiping the group, or making the tanks life so much more stressful while removing what was traditionally their job, i.e. choosing when to pull, what to pull, and setting the pace of the run.
Doesnt take too much of that before someone snaps, not much at all.
Yep. I main tank and or healer. Or a mix. Never have I been yelled at more then thos rolls
Specifically for Ashes, I did a spreadsheet and reflected on all my past characters. And have broken down exactly which classes I am going to start with. Don't fit a sure-fire role but tend to fill what's needed and what isn't meta. Proving viability of the black sheep classes is my consistency in class choice.
Same, making black sheep classes or builds viable is the best because of how little documentation there usually is on it.
And if you manage to make one near meta level or a nice counter to meta in PvP? You can look at all the guide following no brainers and legitimately call them an idiot for doubting.
That feeling is so nice. Unveiling their false sense of intellectual security and often times ego is like nectar from God.
I played feral druid in original wow, when the only gear for druid was resto oriented and hard swapped to ret pally in early tbc. I had to prove the 3% raid dmg increase was more viable than my feral dps which my guild had grown to love. And felt I was trolling with a ret pally. Now in classic it was a viable spec but I fought for it before it was cool. And want to do that exact thing in Alpha 2 =D
@@PherPhur
5:55 I would kill for shapeshifting archetype like Druid.
If when they add druid I hope it's not too locked into shape shifting (but fine as an option for those who want it) I like the nature magic aspect of druid but do not like the shapeshifting that gets slapped onto it.
@@justinwhite2725 LoL game isnt even out and I am talking about new archetype. Maybe something they could add in future expansions or dlcs.
Yeah, options to focus on nature or shapeshifting would be nice.
None of 64 classes have something even remotely close to mechanics of my druid in WoW and its kind of a bummer. Shaman, maybe?
@@justinwhite2725 beastmaster(summoner/ranger) and conjurer(summoner/summoner) classes might be of interest
I main tank in every mmorpg I play and dps is usually the most toxic players because they never read the mechanics and die and complain about everything, it is a complete mess if the encounter require multiple people from dps to do something special. The latest expansion for WoW was a mess because dps never did any cc or anything, they just press their pretty attack buttons to get high on the dps meter.
I lean towrds indirect support because I like helping others in an indorect way an controlling my environment.
Guild Wars 1 mesmer does this well.
Most games the closest to this is tank. And this is about survival and preservation. I do not like the feeling of being glass cannon.
In ashes im breaking this mold a little by going Rogue, however im probably going to be a Shadow Guardian (/tank) for survivability.
If Bard hits the indirect support elements I like (possibly even Socerey Mage/Bard) then that might be amazing.
My favorite Bespoke episode so far!
I started out expecting to play cleric, a few guild members made a case that I’m actually a bard. But I gotta be able to actually kill people or it’s a no for me. Trickster is looking like a possibility.
@@WizzyMcNasty I have some similar concerns as well. I NEED to be able to kill others. I think it's a possibility because of the type of class it is but it may not be as effective. We'll see.
10:45 damn this is the complete opposite of my experience. Groups tend to expect tanks to understand mechanics and direct the flow of the group accordingly in addition to weaving in their abilities.
I tend to find DPS to be the more toxic type part of the reason I despise pugging and will always just be patient and wait until I can get enough guild mates together to do any content. It is why I am in a guild.
Played a healer for a very long time but for the past decade or so I have been tanking. Just like to control the flow of any encounters and the best way to do that is by tanking. Always play the holy type tank if possible paladin, and templar so will be a tank healer/paladin in Ashes.
Neverwinter had a Warlock class that you could heal your team through lifesteal and was a great support class at the same time. I'm hoping Rogue/Cleric or Bard/Cleric has something close to that because I haven't seen anything like it in any other game.
Rift has a Cloromancer that heals based off of damage delt, with some direct healing
16:14 😤 Me and Q gonna have some words. That’s definitely a DPS thing 😅
Hahaha
Ranger/Mage = Scion.... In every MMO I always make a ranger and then I make a mage. Now I can have 2 for 1 special. I like the swiftness of a ranger movement and nature aspect. Also, having the destruction power of being a mage.
In WoW og I played Warlock, Priest and Rogue. Wonder what that says about my personality?
I really like the support role, because it gives me the chance to maintain the bigger picture in fights. Buff/de-buffs, right action at the right time, pick up any slack.
hes too scared to put narc on. Beware the dented one
I feel like narc wouldn't want to do this even if asked.
I want him on here!
@@TheCopiumClinicyou guys are doing great, I like narc. You guys got it going with the ashes content, both of you. It’d be a banger collar for sure 🎉
Depends on his mood. The shit storm calls to him at times lol@@justinwhite2725
@@justinwhite2725 you got it
Funny enough rogue wasn't hardly mentioned at all. I can't stand them, sneaky in game sneaky in life, and very shifty. But oh lordy let them get hit one good time and they're gone....poof! Hang you out to dry. With the common phrase, 'Well, I survived.'
A lot of shitting on tanks took place in the making of this video.
I'll likely go mage or summoner (will need to see it unveiled) as ranged dps is where I excel at. I tend to go for the light armor (robe) aesthetic with a staff.
Soon after WoW launched I was in a guild with a tank that may have been "toxic". You decide...
In Blackrock Spire there was a spot where if you shot a mob on the far side of a chasm, well let's just say; life's about to get interesting. What do I mean by "interesting"?
"Oh Gawd, Oh Gawd, we're all gonna die..." - Hoban Washburne
He liked to do that. (We almost survived it once)
IMHO it doesn't matter how you play the game. But what you think you are doing actually reflects your mentality. I tend to split players in three vast groups:
A. Leader thinks:
"My team is a part of my cause." "I know better." Leadership. Communication. Responsibility for success or failure. The frontman. Mentor role.
- Strength in numbers.
- The backbone of any guild or raid.
- Best award for them is an achieved goal.
B. Supporter thinks:
"I am just a part of the system." "We need a good plan." Cog in the wheel. One of many. Doing work rarely claiming results. Follows orders. Knows a bit about everything. Does small things here and there to keep team competitive. Forewarned is forearmed.
- Strength in quality.
- The mainsail of a guild.
- Best award for them is acknowledgement of the team.
C. Lonewolf thinks:
"I am outside of the system." "I can take shortcuts to be the best." One of its kind. Achievements. Leaderboards. Max out everything. Narrow scope, high efficiency. Will hunt for artifacts in AoC and wants to be in "server-firsts history". Strong PvP aspect. Fame. Unique titles and visuals.
- Strength in skills.
- The cutting edge of a guild.
- Burst in tears for lack of DPS meter in AoC.
- Best award for them is to be famous or notorious serverwide.
For newbies it is a no-brainer to go tank for leaders, healers for support type and DD for lone wolves but players more versed in MMO can make choices not so obvious.
E.g.
You can take hunter class to supply your guild with materials necessary. Which is supporter.
Or you can be “the best hide supplier to go to” on server. Which is lone wolf.
Running artisan guild that always has the best gear ready to sell. Which is leader or supporter.
Running mercenary guild. Which is leader or lonewolf.
The rogue making suicide runs in the enemy backlines to take out healers. Which is supporter.
etc.
Great takes dude! I agree with that.
Thanks for you comment, i think the same !
I'm playing catchup on these Bespoke episodes - super addicting lol thanks for super fun content!!
Glad you’re enjoying it!
I've been playing these games for 25 years now, man. This is clickbait of the worst kind, lol.
People will do stuff like pull packs of enemies to the tank, skip ahead, put strain on the healer while the tanks AoE'ing the first group down, then whine that the tank is a bad tank for following the trinity.
The majority of toxic players have been DPS, because that is the majority of what players play.
A tank player WOULD say that!
@@TheCopiumClinic except I'm traditionally a pvp healer, or raid dps.
For a tank to be effective at PVP they NEED to be the most toxic, disruptive force on the field pooping all over everyone else !
They need the most , and the longest lasting CC .
I can hear all the thin skinned whiny DPS crying " but muh player agentcy , if i loose control of muh big dic DPS for half a sec , i quit !"
To which i say , maybe you should make a plan , focus the tank and bring anti-CC support.
If intrepid cant make Tanks effective in pvp , i will not tank any pug groups , they can sit on thier hands and try to find some other non-existent tank .
You sound like a toddler that doesn't want to share any of his toys lmao. "Only I get to have fun, we play my way, deal with it"
@@germanrud9904 Yeah, I feel that energy too. lol
I really enjoy watching these. More pls! NW was my first mmo and I’m really looking forward to alpha 2
Just started, but i think it is game design elements that contribute to this. FF14, that lets you change jobs and roles, doesn't have toxic tanks, because if they get frustrated or burnt out, they switch. You also have people tanking who are not the 'tank for life' types and so the bad attitudes don't cement. If a tank is mean, or really bad, they are easily replaceable, so toxicity isn't tolerated. With a system that lets one player character be any role or job, the bad attitudes seem to be dulled a little.
The healers still get god complexes sometimes though. So it isn't perfect by any stretch.
I started as healer/support in almost everything. Then switched over to tank so I could have a bit more control over encounters, but more recently I've had a lot of success as dps. Having healed and tanked I appreciate the value of positioning a lot more and see the balance in fights much better. I'm way less likely to overcommit or get out of position as a dps. So many of my friends are either overly aggressive or too standoffish, especially in PvP and so I fell into being dps to help group get better. I think there are definitely personalities that are better at seeing the bigger picture and can probably play most roles serviceably. I'm kind of leaning towards a shadowblade or something like that. Moderate mobility/survivability while still good dps.
For me personally I think I'm probably at least going to start by trying out necromancers as well as an illusioner support what I think I probably will go with the illusion or honestly and the concept behind how I'll play will probably be around almost like a quasi tank but not an actual tank but more of a distractor that prevents the enemies from being able to Target my allies or hits them with heavy debuffs to their attack and defense if they try to make it easy to either kill them or not really worried about them while also having spells to control and stop those who aren't ensnared by my illusions as the more heavy hitting version of my illusions that just flat out ignore trying to control the person's mind and flat out actually stop them like for example hold person in D&D. For me the main reason why this is also the case is because I personally prefer to play support roles especially because it lets me see everything going on in battle and help where I'm needed will also being able to try to figure out the best way for this team composition to manage to win this fight and beyond all else I love the concept of a commander in the back lines who uses magic to literally control the battlefield as they Empower their allies and literally take away their fear while emboldening their courageous spirit before then making themselves seem like a demonic Demon King in the back lines terrifying the Enemy Lines so their minds are weaker and more susceptible and are more possible to be able to be turned on each other as they kill themselves or even believe that they've been frozen solid as my allies get to cut them down without them even attempting to fight back with those who are strong enough to resist are still held captive by my magic and forced to watch as they're killed and slaughtered
I usually don't get to the endgame and try most classes and explore all aspects of the game rather than specializing. I'm more of a solo player and occasionally play with people I meet along the way for a few sessions. I like the fighter theme the most and tend to go for self-sufficient classes with lifesteal or pets to allow me to solo most encounters if necessary. This game might change that though and I'm excited to see what their take on bards and summoners will look like and how race and religion augments can impact the gameplay.
For now I'm thinking to play a reptiloid Tulnar Fighter turning into a Dreadnought with Tank as my secondary. For my alt, I want to go a very different direction and try stuff other MMO's usually don't do well.
I hate the name tank though. Every archetype/class has cool thematic names, but the word tank sticks out like a sore thumb. A tank is a metal container for liquids, and later the term was used for the armored vehicles, and the term is rather recent in modern history (modern meaning after the medieval eras). The term tank in video games refers directly to the armored vehicles around WW1 and after. At least the term tank can be replaced later with the combination class.
I agree that the term is somewhat immersion-breaking. Something like Guardian, Sentinel or even Defender sounds way better in a fantasy setting...
I'm positive there is a correlation as, knowing myself, it fits with the common opinion on tanks (wanting to be a leader and protect my team). My main paladin in WoW was specced as main tank and secondary healer.
my class in ashes will be fighter/fighter using only two-handed swords, I love the burst damage
When you need gems and potions best head down and see the creepy shadow mage. He’ll fix you up.
I doint wanna be a straight up tank, but I would love a class that is tanky/survivable with dots and cc. Similar to my mag Dk in ESO and Unholy Dk in WoW
Necromancer for my first character. I miss my old Necro from Everquest.
I really love your content. Theory and Bespoke serie are fantastic, everything : concept, tone, background music. I almost never post a comment but please : keep doing what you do ! ❤
And happy new year 🎉
Thank you so much! I appreciate the specific feedback.
Kash’s explanation of Jibb’s MMO play style directly correlates to Dread Pirate Wizzy! I like to heal/support but also I gotta be able to shank a B!
I always tank. At first I was like “I’m never toxic!” But then I was like…well…I am adhd, so ima also gonna pull and you’re gonna have to deal with it…so maybe that could be interpreted as toxic by some. 😅 I’m not above wiping a whiny party that’s not paying attention. 😂
Generally, tanks are forced to choose the routes and need to know all the mechanics to be successful. That does lend itself to people with more ego. Thumbs up.
I think when it comes down to class or role its if that person self-inserts or not. I play games how I would make that choice or role in game. Its how you could see yourself. Some like Jibb like to role play the bad guy because they see themselves because they think its "cool". I have nothing aginst it. I had a buddy that was just like that. In SWTOR he almost always picked the "evil" choice just because he found that it was funny or something that he would find fun.
If you can self-sustain easily in solo, then I'll go ranger mage. As someone who mainly plays PvP in mmo, both solo & small scale, the idea of having the mobility and extra burst of both classes is crazy.
Fighter - Least egotistical, cool guy. But also adrenaline junkie.
Tanks are cocky and egotistical because you have to be. If not, criticism will tear you down.
Healers/Support are usually generally happy people but are just tired of everyone's sh*t 😂
DPS are a wild card, you never know what you're getting.
Ill be a dwarf cleric! 💪
"tank most ego"......."ill be playing tank" hahahahahahahahahah
Meat Shields rule
Healer (Cleric/Bard) for me!!!
always a good time
What about people that play female characters
ma bro said Dips for D P S ?
Deeeeeeeps
Tank. Guild leader. Your here to get me my loot, really your all npcs. Your here to get me the loot. I choose where we go, who lives or dies, if i wanna take a leak, everyone gots to wait on me to drain the lizard. Your on my time. I get the resourcss because i lead the way. Im first to the loot because its mine. You pull aggro, your on your own, i choose to stand in red, you better be making sure i live through it or else theirs going to be hell to pay.
Tank. Why, cuz tuck you! your on my time. I wanna read, you say yessir, I wanna smoke. You say yessir, and light my cigarette. I wanna do a dungeon being plastered drunk, you say yessir, and go sacrifice yourself for the group.
I won't explain all the coorelations, but I'll say one of the most obvious, in WoW at least. Idiot trolls play hunters.
I guess the idea of having an AI mostly play for you while you sit back and watch the group is an excellent way to cause some chaos and that's why. Hunters historically also had the longest range so it was kinda grief-like to just sit out of range and shoot while your pet attacks.
hey man. one day you're gonna be big enough from this channel to quit being some loser doctor, i believe in you...unless this game ends up bad
Oh definitely, there is a correlation between personality and preferred roles. I for example, normally gravitate towards healers because you always need a healer, and I just like to help out wherever I can. But what I really am, is a switch. I'll fill any role that needs to be filled. And this is true of real life as well. I don't have particularly strong likes or dislikes, there are very few things that get me excited or put me off. I'm generally ok with anything. I'm more interested in what other people want to do, and supporting what they want.
And so for Ashes, I am likely going to go Summoner.