I tried every popular MMO. It did not go well.
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
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World of Warcraft, Old School Runescape, Final Fantasty XIV. All of these massively popular MMOs have one thing in common, they struggle to attract new players. Why is that?
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Part of the whiplash with WoW is that somewhere along the way they kinda shelved all the previous expansions from being mandatory experiences for an up-and-coming adventurer. This got overwhelming because there were so many different expansions you had to play through just to get to the new stuff. They made a change so that you can now choose to do any expansion that you want on a new character up until you get to the point of the newest expansion. However, new players go to Battle for Azeroth no matter what with no real explanation of what's going on or who anybody is. It's like being pushed into season 8 of Game of Thrones when you've never seen a single episode.
and it does not help that many of the zone quests end in either dungeons no one does anymore, in raids that no one does anymore, or behind outdated reps that take forever to farm.
It’s honestly why I like leveling more, in classic.
@@flameknightdragonyeah I got super depressed trying to do nostalgic content and it's just completely empty.
@@flameknightdragon They could help alleviate this problem by putting in a roulette system like FFXIV. Current expansion player earn currency to use for current expansion by doing old content, so that way new player are not left out to dry with a empty world. Would help even more if they had a min item, and level system for older content.
@@flameknightdragon fr they fucked up the dungeon finder in shadowlands and now you can't really farm rep like you used to without hitting high level
subway surfers on the right side of runelite -plugin when?
Do you have to comment on every single video about MMOs? It's like going into peoples Twitch and advertising your own channel.
@@ThisisCitrusits nothing like that lol
@@ThisisCitrusexcept its nothing like that tho
@@Zadamanim It kinda is.
@@ThisisCitrus so once you get a following, you just aren’t allowed to interact with your community anymore?
I feel like FF14's intent is "just do the ENTIRE main story forever, and leave its rails when you're comfortable." Targetting a single player experience first, and the 'mmo' part when you feel like it.
@RhosVelka What? Have you even played it? It is most definitely a 'true' MMORPG, whatever that even means. It was way more ways to interact with other people in the world than any other MMO. While it is heavy on the story elements, which happen to be one of the best story lines of any game ever, it even goes as far as having an entire Casino you can gamble in with other players.
I get what you're saying here for sure@RhosVelka
@RhosVelkathats what it is, also the reason why i quit/pause.
Absolutely Shit Concept.
you must not understand MMOs FFXIV gates you into doing certain dungeon and raids before being able to progress... the map is clearly linear and no freedom to roam.. way to many loading screens. most boring experience for new players ever... i have read "you sense a hostile presence"
3 billion times lol@@Crealgood
@RhosVelka 100% agree. It's a movie and social space with combat and crafting afterthoughts.
I think I'd love to see another triple head to head, maybe RuneScape 3, Elder Scrolls Online and GW2?
Agreed, that would be great
GW2 would just blow the competition..
These youtubers complain about MMOs but never play the actually good ones
I remember playing Elder Scrolls Online just for 10 minutes, Did not look bad but did not hook me.
ESO in 2023 is one of the worst cash grabs in MMOs out there
so that one gets a hard pass for me
Nice point, however, you lack hair
Ff14 is 5 jrpgs in a trench coat. Very fun, but you'll be watching a lot.
And the most recent two expansions, two of the most beloved, are the most cutscene-heavy expansions in the entire game. We love our cutscenes in ff14.
@@harrylane4i wish they'd implement story skips for the most recent expansions. I had my friend sit down and do the whole endwalker story for me so i didnt have to sit through it. I play the game just for the raids and i wish they'd save players like me some of the trouble since clearing the massive amount of story they put out can take up so much time, but the fact that i have to pay to skip anything is really annoying considering how many hundreds of hours a new character needs invested into it to catch up.
I think it was revealed in the latest Fanfest in Vegas that they'll add a new option to start the game in a later expansion (I think it's Shadowbringers) come Dawntrail. Don't qoute me on that though.
@@the0s0ph1st that would be incredible it true
@@StormBurrito The didn't announce anything solid, and I wouldn't expect anything in 7.0. Rather, Yoshi P said that they've been laying the groundwork so that later down the line they can allow new players to start at 6.1 without being lost or confused.
You can see this with things like the unending codex, which is given to you at the start of 6.1 and gradually adds background lore entries for characters, places and events as the come up, so that if you didn't play through that part of the story you can get a TLDR summary.
I really wish FFXIV would tell new players that side quests are mostly meant for expanded lore information or leveling alt jobs. You can mostly stick to the main story for your main job.
Game looks like trash lmao holy moly
Tbh, I feel like the community is the biggest reason new players don't stick around. There's only so much "18+ nightclub featuring DJ's Cleavage and College Dropout, come get your freak on!" spam in the main cities your average individual can tolerate.
@@michaelmercer9469 We had those when the game had 200k+ players. This hasn't changed at all as RP scenes is huge, in every MMO, and FFXIV isn't an exception. If you gonna judge a game solely because of this you're delusional. FFXIV has this trend; you like it, or don't, and if you don't you leave - simple as that. This game has huge lore and story that isn't for everyone. There's a reason why FFXIV is N1 MMO atm, and no, isn't because of those RP dingleberries, because the game is good and it has so much to offer.
@@C9Kreal I said the same thing 9 years ago, and still eating my words since 9 years. Don't judge a game because of the look. You will look foolish, like you do now.
@@nexeus7302 been here since Heavensward, and no, we did not always have this problem. It wasn't until Shadowbringers that the RP scene in this game became the cancer it is today. Yes, all MMOs have an RP scene, and most of them have an eRP scene as well to some degree, but there's not a single other MMO out there right now where the community is so unabashed about shoving their RP in everyone else's face.
"you'll never encounter someone who looks like you."
Me who has found an npc in endwalker that looks exactly like my character - 👀
Gorillion identical miqotes be like:
it just works
There's only a handful of faces for each race. If you really want to be unique, pick an unpopular race like Elezen, Roga, Hroth or Lala.
I made a retainer who I thought looked cool, until I realize I accidentally 1:1 recreated that one pirate from Stormblood
Oh yes blonde Miqo'te White Mage wearing the Cleric's Robes, you never see those, I'm very original
A lot of the complaints on FFXIV are fixed far later in the game. They added a lot more voiced cutscenes and made new mechanics more fun than a text bubble. I do think they should go back and tweak a lot of the new player experience, though, because it is largely outdated.
That's the main problem with final fantasy tbh, Everyone just say it's fixed later in the game.
@@Krunkeridleios I mean, not that that itsn't a legitimate design problem, because it absolutely is, but at least with FFXIV it actually is true and not just the playerbase huffing copium about a broken game.
That's great for the existing playerbase, but it's never fun for new players to hear "Don't worry, it gets good after the first 200 hours."
@@tomwallen7271 Exactly, I want to believe that the game does get better after ARR but I've alrdy sunk over a hundred hours into that first bit. Just reached heavensward and I don't even have the motivation nor energy to continue anymore lol.
@@tomwallen7271you need to play a support class and you can get pretty far pretty quickly. The fashion/crafting is great in ffxiv.
Actually that "microtransaction shop" in WoW that a quest told you about, isn't (yet) a microtransaction shop, it's more like a (free/included) battle pass system where you do certain activities in the game and earn currency to buy pretty things. It's actually a pretty good non-predatory system which would be really great if it didn't compete with an actual microtransaction shop that also exists.
Did he mistake the Trading Post for a microtransaction shop?
@@Wolfstorm701 yes
This comment needs more views. Trading post is a really cool system that’s an anti micro transaction shop
Without looking into it, I'm going to guess that it is predatory, since you used the term 'battle pass'. Either you're using the wrong term, or it's predatory. There's no such thing as a healthy 'battle pass' system. By their very nature, they are designed by experts to force you to play 24/7, regardless of it being mtx or not (which it often is, of course). (Also, as you said: since there is mtx in the game, everything else is rendered moot.)
I now refuse to play games that are pay-to-win or even have mtx really of any kind. If they do, I play the free version. If there isn't a free version, or the free version itself is entirely built around pay-to-play features (such as Warframe), then I'll simply not play and find another game.
To quote Asmongold on such issues: 'Don't play games you hate and feed into systems you disagree with. Don't spend money on it. Don't play it. Quit.'
“Without looking at it” sums it up perfectly. The game costs 15$ a month no matter what you wanna do in it. 😂🤡
Gw2 is the only one on a positive trending on graph
It also had comprehensive tutorial. It's my first MMO and I managed to learn how to play it, turning camera around was little confusing but I got used to it
FFXIV has always been stated as, and holds true to this "It is a Final Fantasy game first, and an MMO second."
Last time I checked real Final Fantasy games were fully voice acted
@woodchipper2256 So FF 1-9 just aren't real then? FF has covered many genres and styles. Voice acting has nothing to do with it.
@@rezomusic3044no but 10, 12, 13, 13-2 13-3 sure were. And 15. And 16. You’re just being a smartass lmao. We both know older FF games would have been voice acted if the necessary compression technology existed back that
@@woodchipper2256 you're the one being a smartass actually, you expect every single cutscene and dialogue box in the game to be voice acted? which would probably take the developers multiple years to do and most likely leave the va's with ptsd of recording booths, why don't you go tell that to wow maybe they'd be willing to
@@woodchipper2256You are the missleading smart-ass here. FFX, FFX-2, FFXII, FFXIII, FFXIII-2, and FFXIII:Lighting Returns all have massive quantities of text of reading in them to get the full story. FFX, FFX-2 and FFXII are littered with NPCs that provide lore and story critical information through text only. FFXIII, FFXIII-2 and FFXIII:Lighting Returns are extremely codex heavy to the point to where they can be enjoyed without it, but there is so much to be gained if you do read the codex entries. Like FFXIII is amost peek world building and story telling, a real fucked situation. A lot of it comes from the codex entries unfortunately, which is easily missed since the codex entries are rewards for finding things and completing challenges. If you heavily relay on voiced cutscenes with FFXIII in English, then you set yourself to have a rougher time since there were rewrites and retranslations as voice overs were underway. None of the voice overs issues in English were ever fixed by the way. Unfortunately FFXIII finds itself with an issue, because even if you added a ton of NPCs to tell you all the information contained within the codex, it would've been a worse way to deliver the info then through the codex. And a lot of it can't really be shown either, the best way to deliver the info was really to tell. FFXIII-2 was also codex heavy, this time with the mog toss added for good messure. It's not as good, actually it is the weakest of the three entries. FFXIII:Lighting Returns also has it's own codexs that aid in the story telling. Now granted, FFXIII really didn't need it's sequels, it is actually better as a stand alone, but the sequels aren't terrible either. Understand too that the codex is absolutely crucial to understanding the greater narrative of FFXIII. Thankfully it is all contained within the base game.
As for FFXV, it was so cross-media that it was all over the place. Additionally we will never get the full story since story crucial DLC was canceled mid way through post production. To get the full story of FFXV, it is required that you purchase and watch external media and read in order certain chapters from a book while playing the game and paid dlcs at certain intervals to get the full intacted story.
FFXVI is complete from purchase, with the rising tides DLC being an add on. However, as an FF game, FFXVI was mid for most things about it. Combat was excellent, but everything else left me with a desire for something better.
Out of all you listed only one of the games didn't require reading to get the full picture. Even if two of the titles are fully voiced for info, one still requires external offical cannon sources to be read to get everything for it.
I will also say this from experience, having voice acting in a game can be a detractor towards the game. Having poor voice direction or having a voice that doesn't fit a character will always detract from my experience over just reading the same text at my own pace. If your brain shuts off because a lack of voice acting, then that is a you problem and not a game issue. If I can get more to read in text form over having less story voiced for me to listen to, then I will 100% choose to have the text format every time. Text takes less file space than voice over anyways, more storylines and plot threads to mull over for a smaller file size. Win-Win honestly.
GW2 is the only other mmorpg besides osrs that has really hooked me. Still find myself going back to it sometimes :)
I agree. There is so much to do in gw2 that it's actual insane what's there for the game. Everything gives you experience and exploring what seems cool at the moment is how you level. Honestly, the hardest thing to learn in gw2 is the map specific currencies and you don't even deal with that till you get past the core game.
gw2 combat felt clunky and graphics are meh, personally, i have like 3k hours on wow but FFXIV is the gold
It has insane value too. The only thing in GW2 you have to directly pay for is the expansion. Everything in the "Cash Shop" you can technically buy with ingame gold, the Living World season areas and story is free if you log in even once during it's introduction, which is a couple of months at a time. When the new expansion cycle was announced, afaik not that many people were upset we'd be paying more for content, considering how little people had to spend for the most part for the last decade.
@@ZXChris93 im sure its a great game but it just doesnt appeal to me :/
Completely Agree.
"A bad tutorial can legitimately be worse than no tutorial at all" Not an MMO, but... looking at you, League of Legends...
Don't worry, anyone who plays League is intellectually deficient anyway, no matter the help they get.
it actually is so true. there's a game with an tutorial, it already kinda sucks, doesn't eplain much blah blah but whatever, atleast tells you the very basics right?
well apperantly not lol. i don't know if the tutorial was added after or not, but with the venting mechanic (a mechanic to get out of combo's) they just never explain that in the tutorial, meaning players never think something like that exists, where without a tutorial they would've looked at the controls atleast and found the button
My biggest issue with FF14 being an MMO is people go into it expecting a standard MMO when that is not at all what it is. It's a Final Fantasy game. If you go into it as a WoW, GW2, RS, etc veteran expecting something along those lines, it may be rough for you. The 10+ minute long cutscenes and 18 trillion lines of dialogue that you sometimes have to read cuz not everything is fully voiced *is* the game, the "MMO" aspect of FF14 is very much secondary. You experience the entire story by yourself only doing the occasional dungeon or trial cuz they gotta fit MMO somewhere, your character is front and center of every cutscene and event, there are no "Warriors of Light" like there are Champions of Azeroth, you are THE Warrior of Light, everyone else is just there to help *you*
I love Final Fantasy, so ofc I love FF14, but just like all the other FF games, they're not for everyone, you have to *want* to be told a story for 90% of your time playing or else you're gonna be bored out of your mind if you skip every cutscene or dialogue because it is a Final Fantasy game first and foremost
What a roundabout way of saying "it eventually gets better after 80 hours of boredom".
I think I'd love to see another triple head to head, maybe RuneScape 3, Elder Scrolls Online and something else?
Star Wars The Old Republic, maybe?
Wizard101
gw2
What about the harry potter thing
Path of exile!
now, as a ff14 player, I feel like this is the sort of game you ought to treat less like an open-world mmo and more like an rpg in an mmo system. Because the content is the main story quest rather than endgame, the game pace is slower at the start, and your character progress follows along your story journey.
side note: if you think Gridania is confusing, try heading over to Ul-dah. that's a freaking maze right there xD
Yoshi-P did said ff14 is a Final Fantasy game first and MMO second.
(Final Fantasy games are story heavy single player RPG)
I remember getting lost at least 5 times.
Why are people keep parroting this stuff. Rpg with MMO gameplay and systems is trash Rpg. Compare ff14 game play to other ff games, it's day and night
@@TheDigimonXYZ you are answering to a month old comment. The mentality is not "parroting" when people unanimously agree on the sentiment
@@kmeanxneth definitely not a game to try if you want a more mmo experience
As a hardcore FFXIV fan, I will say that your ability to enjoy it will change based on what you're wanting from it. Final Fantasy XIV is an MMO, but it was designed to be a Final Fantasy game first, and MMO second, so a lot of the weirdness you got from how the story is presented might be due to that since the storytelling style of the average MMO and the average JRPG are so different.
Nah the game is just shit.
That's arguably a problem. MMORPGs weren't designed to be some other game first. Nor were they meant to be main story driven either. It's where modern MMOs differ from older MMORPGs. MMOs lost the RPG. In FFXIV, you don't feel like an adventurer making your way in the world. You feel like the main character saving a planet that you're forced to care about because.... its a main quest??? It simply just doesn't work well in the genre. The world needs to be the main character and you're experiencing it the way your character would along with friends you begin with or create along the way. That's an RPG. Which, again, FFXIV is just an MMO, not an MMORPG.
@@poisonated7467 I completely disagree. FFXIV being an RPG first is the reason why it's become as loved as it is today. Modern MMOs losing the RPG is arguably the reason why so many fall off before they can even hit their stride, because far too many focus on being massively multiplayer before being an enjoyable game, while FFXIV went the opposite route. Just because it's not traditional for a MMORPG to be main story driven doesn't mean that it's a bad route to take, FFXIV is proof of that considering it is currently the most played MMO on the market right now. While I can understand the want to just be "another adventuter", the FFXIV devs clearly understood that so many other MMOs go that route, while rarely do they do the opposite. If you want to be just another adventurer making their way, then there's 50 MMOs you could play instead. It also doesn't ask that you care about the main quest just because it's the main quest. You care because of the characters, which often have as much depth as you'll get in a fullscale single-player experience, with characters like Emet-Selch and Zenos genuinely being some of the most well-written antagonists I've ever wanted to punch.
@@thatrandomguy12123I dont disagree that FFXIV is very popular, but tbf, it's popular among modern MMO gamers who haven't played anything but the WoW clone. FFXIV is a WoW clone. The design and philosophy behind both are basically identical or as close as can be. While there are 50 other MMOs that don't take the MSQ, you still dont feel like an adventurer for multiple other reasons.
Caring about the MSQ because of the characters is no different from caring about the MSQ because it's the MSQ IN THE BEGINNING. Why should I care about those characters? Because they're in the MSQ. My character has no real other reason, in the beginning, to care. They aren't my party members like a D&D campaign, or an oldschool MMORPG dungeon. They aren't my guildmates either.
Equating the MSQ and it's characters to a "fullscale single-player experience" is the problem. It's the problem with all modern MMOs. They are trying to force a single-player experience in a genre where it fundamentally doesn't fit. If you want a solo style game, that's what single-player RPGs are for. MMORPGs are about very minimal solo activity, lots of group activity, socializing within said group, class, zone, guild, race, alignment, etc., and about having the world itself be the main character that you experience through all the systems of the game with others at least vaguely with them if not directly with them. Solo play is causing a lot of the problems within modern MMOs.
@@poisonated7467 Alright, so I find a few issues with your argument. First, the argument that it's only popular with people who haven't played WoW is asinine beyond belief, considering that it recieved and still enjoys a massive surge of players from the WoW exodus. Hell, most of the biggest FFXIV content creators on this platform are former WoW players who grew disillusioned with Blizzard and their game. FFXIV being a WoW clone holds about as much water as WoW being a Runescape clone, or Runescape being a Neverwinter Nights clone, the only real similarity between them being that they're all MMORPGs.
I don't see how caring about the characters in the MSQ is some backwards thing considering that's how literally every story ever written was. You keep talking about how solo play is causing problems in MMOs, yet you fail to actually bring a single problem into the conversation. It honestly seems like you just have a "different = bad" mentality. If you want a MMORPG that has "very minimal solo activity, lots of group activity, socializing within said group, class, zone, guild, race, alignment, etc. and about having the world itself be the main character" then go and play one like WoW or Runescape, clearly FFXIV isn't for you.
The new wow player experience;
You're on a boat as a recruit, you arrive on an island, kill some harpies, trolls and a dragon.
An hour later your in the main city hub being called the champion of that faction and sent off to war.
You go to war and instead of fighting other factions fight corrupt officials, eldritch creatures and witches.
You hit 60.
You're then immediately sent to the land of the dead or the the dragon isles.
You quest there until you hit 70 and then you have to learn;
Raid mechanics and prep
m+ mechanics/affixes
PVP
Rep farming
How gear works and what stats you need on that gear
Crafting systems specifically introduced in DF
Do world quests, weeklies, daylies
Unlock world traversal with dragonflying tokens that you have to farm
Learn your rotation to be effective
Have different talents for single and AOE targets for raid and M+ separately
And this is just stuff off of the top of my head.
This is why blizz are bleeding out. You have so much to learn and it's introduced way too late into the game.
The 1-60 experience will teach you avoiding AOES, basic skill rotations, equipping gear, inventory management, cost of death and some other basic mechanics.
The bulk of what you'll be playing the game for is in the last 10-20% and the learning curve becomes a cliff you have to climb.
This is compounded by what stage you join the game at.
If you join in a 10.2 or 10.3 patch you'll be behind everyone else who has been playing since day 1 and will be met with hostility for not knowing mechanics because you're new and they either expect you to have played the game for the past 21 years, or to have played since that expansions release.
I’m so proud of Idyl! He’s gone from copying J1mmy to copying Josh Strife Hayes! /s
I'm dead XD
Copying success is the best way to make success.
@@JohnFromAccountingalso the best way to become unremarkable...
it's very weird how mmo retention seemed so much higher back in the day when they deffinitely were more arcane. i think back then the incentive to play just to hang out was higher, and now new players sort of have the sword of Damocles over their head, expecting them to understand enough to raid someday.
Because back in the day we didn't have social media. You don't need to play an MMO to socialize with people online anymore.
@@cynthiahembree3957 Yeah, I had spent weeks playing runescape back in the day without doing any content besides killing cows in Lumbridge. 90% of the time was spent on the novelty of seeing and interacting with real people in the game.
@@cynthiahembree3957That's just not true. We had all kinds of online chat rooms and things like multiplayer flash games with integrated chats way before WoW or RS. Ventrilo and Teamspeak were a thing.
MSN was also huuuuuge all throughout the 2000s until it eventually was made obsolete by the Facebook chat function (which was functionally worse than MSN in every way possible).
@@Melodeath00 Except none of these were mainstream. Facebook, Instagram and Twitter hadn't been created yet. And those chatrooms you mentioned weren't used by a lot of people outside of gaming. It was incredibly niche. So my statement still stands social media wasn't mainstream and accessible to everyone.
@@cynthiahembree3957 MSN wasn't any more obscure in 2002 than Facebook was in 2012. It was used by everybody, including the hardcore anti-nerds and tech illiterates.
Was probably different for the older generations and in other places of the world, but for my generation growing up back then (born 92 in rural Norway), it sure was the case.
Your memory of the mid 2000s sounds more like the mid-late 90s to me.
Just wanna say - super high quality video. Love your tone, delivery, editing, pacing. Independent of the topic, I think you’re doing great stylistically. Hope you’re able to keep making videos and you continue to get traction :)
I never understood why you'd build gameplay investment through the amount of buttons to press instead of making those buttons fun to use in the first place.
Guildwars 2s done a great job on that.
One of the biggest benefits with FFXIV is that you get really invested in your character and you don't have to replay any of the story to try a new class. You can play every class and level every crafting class (they are full classes with rotations) on a single character.
Although for a new player who wants to try endgame stuff, it bites since if you're someone who wants to do the current endgame its over 200 hours of story to grind through which turns off new players.
@@Wiltings I will never, ever, ever, ever, understand people who want to skip all of the game to get to the 'game'.
@@Wiltings 200 hours of story IS the game though.
@@Ticktok_of_OzFFXIV is heavily story focused. A lot of people want to play a game, not sit through 45 minutes of cutscenes every 2 quests where you teleport to a nee place and talk to someone. Then you sometimes get combat, for like, 2 minutes before the next hour of teleport to talk to "x" person quest.
@@diode_wow It's a Final Fantasy game first, and an MMO second, and it doesn't pretend to be otherwise. If new players bounce off it because they just want an instant level 90 character to grind the same dungeons over and over for 'reasons', then the system has worked, because this game isn't for them, and that's fine. Not everything has to cater to everyone all the time.
Besides, the real endgame of FFXIV is FASHION!
The beginning of FFXIV is a drag for new people, especially with people with low attention spans lol. It was hard for me to go through A Realm Reborn but hearing all the FFXIV fans saying amazing things about Shadowbringers, it helped me push through the game. I was able to set myself a goal to reach Shadowbringers which allowed me to experience one of the grandest stories of all time.
taking your word for it, just started Heavensward and hate these maps with a passion lol
Shoot once Heavensward started (and even halfway through a RRB) the story got way better. I mean I get the boring start, they have to lay the ground work of so much stuff 😅
;-; I've tried so many times, but I couldn't keep my interest! Maybe one day... haha
How do you get passed the bad voice acting and ugly character model's interactions ?
It's a drag for people who want to play video games instead of reading generic boring fantasy slop.
Old School and RS3 are both available on the Jagex launcher really easily but that's assuming you want to create a jagex account first... which I assume is actually going to be the preferred option moving forward as it's (supposedly) better account security.
As a veteran OSRS player I just noticed this the other day 😅
i switched over with no real issues. the authenticator is fucking annoying though.@@Grog
iirc they said they're going to soon make it mandatory
Yep all my characters for both games right there in the little drop down window it’s great
As a new player I don't see why you wouldn't start with a jagex account. As an older player I definitely felt very hesitant to make one, but did eventually. And well its a lot more covenient especially when playing both of them at the same time.
WoW's biggest issue is starting people in BFA. not only is it just assumed that the PC was one of the people in the campions of Azeroth aka the heroes that have beaten all the big bads in WoW. but they cut out the prepatch event that started the war aka the horde was at peace with the alliance until they decided to make the night elves an almost extinct people and literally burned their home to the ground. This removed all the context from that expansions plot and honestly it drops people into what is considered the worst era Of WoW's story telling.
Blizzard can't make a smooth experience for new players. They're a company that cares so little for storytelling that they give their old players PTSD from the previous expansion "Shadowlands" and while the game design department apologizes the writers joke about forgetting major unresolved plot points {"what sword?"}. Maybe they can joke AFTER they fix things.
@deckofcardboard hey at least they pretend shadowlands doesn't exist and send new people to BfA instead!
they should probably add a fresh new player experience to every expansion that ties *directly* into the expansion with nothing before it. make up a bit of story why you, the newbie, is suddenly important.
I mean, that would require them to start new people (at least the first character) on a higher level and introduce skills like they do with DKs for example to not completely overwhelm people but also make it possible to level to max in current content.
further characters could start at level 1. I mean, is that weird? probably? but that way they can still experience the old stuff without having to intentionally do, dunno, Durotar on a level 70 character which really only achievement hunters would want to do. (ie completely devalue old zones)
it's probably a really dumb idea but wow's levelling is so messed up I couldn't even begin to figure out a proper fix to the new player problem without starting world development from scratch.
For the record, BfA is not worse than Shadowlands. it would be so messed up to send people THERE first.
@@icannotbeseen issue is they are not pretending shadowlands never happened. Heck the green dragon flight's has major parts dealing with shadowlands.
@@icannotbeseen they really should have made exile's reach not tied into BFA. make is to at the end of it you do take out a major threat and save not general or other high ranking leader from this threat. that would be a good way to do the "heroes" and "champion" thing, and combed BFA and SL when i was making that statement. Legion should have been when the faction war nonsense ended. really going from legion to dragon flight would have been narratively better then the stupid faction war and afterlife BS.
Hearing "not needing to pay anything extra to create new characters" really reminded me about how weird runescape is in that way
True, then again, RuneScape is classless so you're not locked into being a mage or an archer or a warrior. And you can change your appearance any time you like just by going to the makeover mage. So really the only time you'd want to make a new character is try one or more of the ironman modes. Whereas WoW locks you into the class, and iirc also locks in your appearance so change to a different class you'll need to create a new character. But that is offset by not having to pay extra for that new character.
good point@@hauddubius3706
Sorry, but Josh Strife Hayes is the president of MMO's. You can be Vice President lol
Seems like classic wow would be right up your alley. The problem with retail is that at one point a long the way Activision realized that the leveling experience had become so disjointed and unfun as anything dies the second you look at it anyways that people were actually willing to pay an entire AAA retail game price just to skip it. Eventually it became so unbearable that they had to do something so they made the entire world scale to your level and force you to play through one of two expansions to reach the actual new theme park expansion leading to the actual gameplay - the endgame.
But since the char boost has become such a profitable endeavour they never did away with forcing you to spend days on irrelevant stuff, half of which has been retconned since anyway.
So basically the reason you couldn't hop into dragonflight right away is due to them prioritizing milking the established playerbase rather than getting new players (and the gameplay loop in retail stays the exact same, with the exact same quest designs, from the tutorial island until you reach the endgame when it becomes a hub to play three possible different minigames. M+ dungeons, raids and arena PvP.
If you are actually looking for a somewhat challenging world of exploration and cohesion classic is the way to go
@25:55 Pretty certain that's a screenshot of the Trading Post, which is currently a free-to-play Battle Pass-like system. Those are rewards you can buy from a rotating selection using a currency you earn by playing the game - essentially like if your Final Fantasy achievements dropped a currency you could spend on cosmetics. It probably says something about the quest you did that you came away thinking it was a premium storefront.
Give this video a few months and it will be factually correct.
They're already flirting with the idea of monetising the Trade Post (the Medivh set from July, the two sets from August, the straight up selling one time 200tenders in August)
@@assboi yep there's no way the trading post won't be a full-on cosmetic cash shop by the end of the year. you'll get the first few tenders for free to get you hooked (I mean, I logged into retail for the first time since castle nathria and got three mounts from there. the fuck. it's so jarring when you come from wotlk where the only cool mounts probably go to the raid lead first and then you never do yogg+0 again or they're attached to something like immortal where 24 people have to grasp how to walk in a slightly curved line so you can get the stupid achievement)
@@icannotbeseenHonestly doing Yogg+0 every week, rolling the mount and winning with a 100 is how it should be. Especially if you're doing Ulduar in Phase 3. Not sure what guilds can't do Yogg+0 at this point, we were doing it with 1 tank for months until he had to quit, then were doing it without a raid lead and with 2 new tanks that hadn't done 0 lights before, all in Phase 2 and we're not exactly tryhard.
You're right about the tenders, no way there won't be increasingly more ways to buy them for real money on the shop, even if it is in combination with other shop purchases.
@@assboi honestly why would they amalgamate the actual shop into the trading post, the trading post is stuff you earn in game, the mediv set was in the shop NOT the trading post, there is literally no news about items in the trading post costing real money, you can farm gold in wow very easy and convert that into your local currency on your blizz account which is cool, i paid for my Diablo 4 with my wow gold, people who hate on the shop are usually mount collectors, they are mad they cant get the mount achievs without buying mounts from the shop to complete achievs,
I love the subtle joke with the empty Golden Gnome stand in the background.
Runescape's Adventure Path System is honestly great, and the only thing I can immediately think of for it to do is guide you along some of the beginner quests, like a Quester Path. Have it take players through some of the original quests from launch, Start with Cooks Assistant and cap it off with Demon Slayer since that's a bigger deal of a quest.
You mean dragon slayer? Demon slayer literally is nothing
@@Boogerdick69 Considering it's supposed to be for brand new players, capping it off at slaying an ancient demon that intends to level a city, regardless of how easy it is, seems like a great starting point, and doing the other five quests that came out first alongside Demon Slayer would show new players many of the different things they can expect from quests. From the fetch-y type stuff of Cooks Assistant and Restless Ghost, to the more story and dialogue based quests like Romeo and Juliet, and the more combat and boss focused quests like Demon Slayer. It would really show everything that makes a runescape quest over-all, as well as making sure the player knows that quests vary greatly in how big, or small, they are.
@@Boogerdick69 Considering the other paths cap out at 20 something that recommends 15 combat lvl seems more appropriate than Dragon Slayer which recommends lvl 45.
@@kennysalty6019 like you said "start"
the original comment say "cap it off" meaning end it. Needs to be capped off with dragon slayer an started with demon slayer
@@Boogerdick69 Unless you are trolling hard, you're missing the point. The adventure path system is a built-in tutorial and for a quest path to "end" at demon slayer would be perfectly reasonable. The other paths "end" relatively early on as well, because the paths are a sort of tutorial in the first place, they are not meant to hold your hand throughout the entire game, they are an introduction to the variety of things you can do in oldschool runescape. If you "end" the path with dragon slayer, the hardest free-to-play quest there is with highest requirements, you're not doing a tutorial, you're doing a full guide on how to play the game. Why not "cap it off" with theatre of blood at that point eh? Or maybe Tombs of Amascut? Desert treasure 2? A tutorial guide is for new players and the rest should be left up to player exploration, not hand holding. Besides, that's what the activity advisor is for, it continues recommending quests all the way to late-game, because it's a very soft suggestion for people who feel lost.
As a gamer who doesn’t play any of these….I felt like:
FFXIV: is a single player game filled with immense amounts of talking, cut scenes and loading screens….that at the end (based on some comments) becomes an MMO with cities filled with invites to weird fetish sex cults
WoW: doesn’t even know what it’s doing
OSRS: you are thrown into the world to level and grind for centuries
GW2: I played it for a while a few years ago….very accessible to anyone but just a fashion show at max level
2 years ago when I started playing Osrs for the first time the adventure paths is exactly what got me to understand the game perfectly now 2 years later and I have about 1000 hours in the game and I’m still going
As a pretend Zamorak Follower, I give new players just enough free stuff and gp to keep them playing long enough for the addiction to set in ;)
The trading post in wow actually isn't (yet) a micro transaction shop, the currency is purely earned through gameplay
they have already begun selling the currency in bundles. i can guarantee that is a test as companies like that always do. one day, they will sell it direct. the fomo nature of the trading post is set up too perfect not to sell it.
I believe he is probably referring to wow retail and not classic.
You get told about the class switch mechanic a little later on in FFXIV. Most things in that game are gated through the MSQ (main story quest) like a single-player game. I think it’s around level 20 they tell you to visit other guilds and try other classes, and when you unlock that first new class, you are given the pop up on how it works. All you need to do is switch your weapon!
You get told after the level 10 job quest for the job you start out as.
10 - you can switch to a different class
15 - you travel to the other cities, unlock the Hall of the Novice, and get the first 3 dungeons (or later if you have all the leveling buffs in place)
Or save equipment loadouts on your character menu to automaticaly re-equip your last saved loadout.
Only reason why I didn't stay with FF 14 is because I love housing in all mmos and I'm not playing lottery with housing. Seriously stupidest thing I have seen for such a huge and successful game. All housing should be available to everyone.
@@SpartanWarrior76 eh housing is pretty available nowadays, especially on my dc. like half the wards are empty.
Hold up, is 9Rain short or is Idyl actually a giant?
Yes
Yep
Both
Is 9Rain code bullet?
9rain radiates 5 foot energy
They are changing where new players go after the tutorial in WoW. Once Dragonflight is over, it'll become the new player expansion instead of BFA. It's a much more friendly introduction to the game, with its own contained story (unlike BFA, where you are thrust into a long-ongoing war) and it'll lead smoothly into the following expansion once the new player gets to the level required for it.
The actual expansion previous to Dragonflight, uhh... was not even on Azeroth. So they kept BFA as the new player expansion, since it's at least on our world.
chromie time exists, your not thrust into anything you have choice, so many people here are dumb asf,
imagine being upset that a ff game is like any other ff game with story and cutscenes.
I think youre the perfect person to review new player experience for skipping textboxes. Nobody really reads those.
he just needs to learn the difference between the in game shop and the trading post, because hes confusing it,
Most new games are confusing in the beginning when you first start playing. Each game has its own format. Just gotta give enough time to learn and get used to them.
sad to say everyone wants to have their hand held, bunch of whimps
@@Dropsey818 MMO players have wanted every MMO to be World of Warcraft for almost 20 years now.
As someone whose favorite game of all time is ff14… yeah, the first 10 hours of the game are rough and could use a serious overhaul. They made some changes to that first expansion, but they should have focused on cutting down those first 15 levels or so, up to the first dungeon.
Also yeah, gridania is incredibly confusing, that’s a pretty common issue and the fact that those cities were designed to be one continuous location and then got split in 2 later, it is incredibly difficult to learn your way around. I continued to get lost in Limsa Lominsa for a long, long time. Game isn’t perfect, but I love it stoll
FF14 is fantastic. Just the first couple minutes of this video made me want to play again. I haven't been on in years. I think it's time to hop back in.
I agree that the beginning of the game was brutal, at least when I did it. Idk if it's the same now. It takes quite a long time to get through all the early fetch quests and get far enough in that you get to fun more complex combat and quests. I feel like there must be a lot of players that quit out during the boring early sections before it gets really fun.
@@Maybe_Tom_Cruise ARR got an overhaul a few years ago, but it was mostly focused on trimming down those brutal 2.X patches. Most of the very early game stuff went entirely untouched.
The game is in a decent state right now, the base story current expansion was really good, and wrapped up a lot of the plot, and they’re getting ready for 7.0 in the next year or so. Admittedly, I’m biased, but there’s ever a time to get back in and catch up, it’s now!
@@harrylane4 Yeah, I've been out for quite a while. The last raids I remember doing were I think the savage Omega raids? I think the stormblood expansion was my last. I probably haven't been on since 2018. I didn't get bored as much as I just didn't have time to raid for a while, and that's what I really wanted to do, and after a while off, I never hopped back on. I have some more time now, though, and I'm pretty hyped to get back into now, though not gonna lie. 😂 I'm looking forward to trying out all the new classes and smashing through some new content.
I still get lost in the main cities at times. Especially uldah. It makes me feel like a new player every time I'm scouring the map for where something is lol
@MrShmeaton My friend talked so highly of FF14 so I downloaded it and tried it for the first time maybe 6 months ago.
I didn't make it past the intro cutscenes. I was so unbelievably bored out of my mind I Uninstalled the game after 30 minutes.
I really don't care about lore or background or story arc etc. I just want to play an mmo. I want to grind. Achieve things. Be competitive. Make friends.
I'm sure im one of many players who quit without even trying the game because of how awful the beginning was.
I loved final fantasy tactics and ff 12 on ps2 but any ff I played newer than that I just can't get into.
Honestly I will implore everyone just to watch Preach's video over this. Its called "I Played 10,000 Hours of MMOs - What YOU Shouldn’t Do". Boy howdy did Idyl break every single rule in this video on trying to give his opinion. Assuming most if not all games play like your previous MMO is a sure way to not enjoy the dip into a new MMO. So to those who are looking for a new home...go look up Preach's vid you'll save yourself a lot of headaches.
I like watching people play them but something about paying a monthly subscription just to access a game is insane to me. No shame to the people that do. Just could never be me.
I totally agree with ffxiv and it’s tutorials probably needs more depth to it. For what it is, everything is there. Now asking a player to read??? At least in the US That’s a tall order. For example, the job quests for SAGE emphasizes the need to utilize one of its core mechanics, KARDIA. In the instances the npc will literally YELL AT YOU to put kardia on them, but people just black out and ignore the chat bubbles and chat text, leading to a lot of new sages forgetting to use the mechanic in raids.
I think we just need better reading comprehension as a whole, but until then… idk maybe the instance should just straight out fail if you don’t do it. 😢 but it may also be a result of a clashing of Japanese and American cultures. Sometimes we just need to be handheld or else we’ll complain and yell, that’s the American way
American burn 😆
I'm from EU and I have the same problem as U.S I think ff14 is made for the Asian market in mind.
FFXIV combat is incredibly simple and most of the fight mechanics are clearly labelled with bright colors and directions. If people chose to not read the story, that's up to them but you can definitely work out how to play just by checking tooltips and practising in combat.
The beautiful thing about games like FF14 is that they are modular. The video covers a truth topic, but the player experience is overwhelming when they try to take in everything all at the same time. Even the most experienced player usually does not "do everything". Square Enix did a very unique approach that made this game pull forward from the others in the new player experience but breaking the game down into centric interests that pull the experiences down to singular developments. Story, crafting, PVP, social development, basic material and combat grinds with their own purpose, dungeon crawling, sub combat systems, job/class stories, housing, player events, raiding. Its quite impressive. Great video though, and you speak a lot of facts from the new experience.
Biggest problem with Retail wow is , nobody will help you, if you ask questions you will be ridiculed or booted from the group, nobody talks in dungeons or raids, and if you ask your guild for questions they will say "there is google and plenty of RUclips tutorials."
Weird, I had the same experience playing ffxiv up to lvl 50.
Also, i never understood the animosity towards “google it” advice. They are teaching you to fish, instead of giving you the fish itself, yes, but that’s the point. And in my experience, the answers you will find in google would be much better, concise and accurate, then anything people will post in guild chat.
look kids a person who doesn't know guilds exist, tons of guilds to join to raid, my guild gives away AOTC because its so far through the patch,
@@Dropsey818 *sells.
@@max7971 Imagine you're playing D&D and you had a question about your class or rule and your DM and/or fellow players told you to pull out your phone and google it. It deserves the animosity it has. People need to treat each other like fellow adventurers. Getting players to care about each other is a fools errand, though.
RuneScape has the best quest lines of any games ever. Some of the best content in the game, yet it is skipped by many as the game just never ends and will consume your life. But read through the quest stories! Very interesting stuff going on in Old School RuneScape!
Maybe, they are cool the first time but as far as story goes, they are on par with Adventure Quest, which is okay but nothing stellar. WoW actually had better writing because it needed to. Best story telling in an mmo has to be SWTOR since it takes after one of the best RPG's ever launched.
Or maybe the fact that the visuals looks it was one of the first ever made games
@@eliascarlsson2624you must not know what the early games actually used to look like.
Guild Wars 2 is pretty good. It's going through a light rough patch in balance, but that's end game, raid stuff.
Big, beautiful world, large story, lots of old content that's still relevant because they use horizontal progression instead of a constant gear grind.
19:16 Not to the extent you did, but I also had this issue in Lost Arc, there are some places which are so outright confusing that trying to decipher where you're supposed to go takes legit 5 minutes of staring at the map and trying to figure out which path actually takes you to where you want to go. Thankfully this only happened in a few areas and wasn't a constant struggle.
No Guild Wars 2? That's the one MMORPG which does not have any of the bullcrap. :D
Yup. You'll never see a character in FF14 that looks like yours. Especially if you made a white haired female miqo. Absolutely not.
0:03 No, it was showing you videos about MMOs dying because you were preparing a video literally titled that "it did not go well" and the algorithm picked up on that.
No, they are quite literally dying. Basic stats will show you this information. Just because you still play it doesn’t mean they are alive.
@@meta8756 Gonna be honest my dude, I'm not interested in debating your rhetoric over a 7 month old comment.
@@ntplusofficial okay my dude
@@ntplusofficialNAAAAA LIL BRO COME BACK OVER HERE FOR SOME TEA 😂
If I have one criticism of your approach, it's that FF14's amount of reading and story content is a feature, not a bug. It's meant as a gateway for people more used to single player RPGs, like most of the other FFs. I agree that it could definitely use more "show don't tell" when it comes to the tutorials themselves, but the game having a long, story-heavy set of cutscenes at the start IS actually preparing you for the experience of playing the game; that's just the speed it rolls at, and that's why it was able to gain its reputation as the king of storytelling in the MMO space. Otherwise I really enjoyed the video!
NGL. I've been playing XIV for 3 years, and I'm still learning about new systems and mechanics in the game.
For anyone who dips their toes in, the biggest thing I can say, don't treat it like wow. WoW ultimately is a content treadmill in my mind. Everything you do leads you to the singular end goal of PvE progression, getting gear, getting stronger, going into harder content until you eventually reach a point where your player skill can't carry you any further, and you find the highest tier of content you can current achieve until you improve and grow to climb higher and higher up that path.
XIV by design is not that. You can get full Preraid BiS in about 2 hours of effort when a new tier comes out. You only need to reclear a raid 8 times on the highest difficulty, then you have full BiS and you're done. There's no other PvE progression to be found through the standard raiding loop that you'd find in WoW. Instead, XIV focuses on branching content paths.
Off the top of my head you have...
- Blue Mage: Collecting spells from monsters you defeat out in the world, and doing content with groups of nothing but blue mages where people build their own skill load out and go do older raid content trying to beat it with a full raid team of goofy meme jobs. Something similar to the Brawlers guild where you get weekly challenges to beat the bosses with random conditions, a class storyline, and some solo challenges to beat specific bosses as a no hit run to earn blue mage specific titles
- Deep Dungeons: 100-200 floor roguelike esq dungeons you can do solo or with a group with randomized floors full of powerups, affix's and traps. Doing it as a group is "kinda" hard, but doing these solo is a really big challenge, and rewards you with titles a lot of players respect.
- Ultimate Raids: Basically big, "What if" fanfiction versions of boss fights. Sticking to WoW, its basically a "What if Terion didn't shatter frostmourne and Arthas won? The fight now us fighting to break out of the sword, fighting an alternate timeline, heavily empowered version of Arthas. Its the hardest PvE content in the game, and its not a part of Gear progression. Its purely for Trophy weapon skins and titles, and 100% optional content.
- Island Sanctuaries: a small minigame about growing a factory on an island, growing crops, cultivating animals, collecting rare animals, shipping things off for profit, etc.
- Housing: XIV has super good player housing, people main just being a house designer helping others with making their ingame homes look as nice as possible, and people get really creative, using things like Mugs and display cases to make unique door models in game.
- PvP: I hate it, its not good imo, but it exists. : ^) Basically just BGs and small scale objective based matches
- Triple Triad: Mini card game and collectable system in game, go all around the world fighting people to win cards from them, building your deck to be as strong as possible. Really simple and easy tbph, but a mini collectable sidegame to mess around with.
- Crafting: Unlike Wow, Crafting jobs are a full class with rotations, skills, gearing etc. There's Pro's/Con's to this, and tbph, a lot of it becomes automated through macros, but if you want to explore the system, you can 100% do it manually and through skill/knowledge out preform what macros can do. There's also Expert crafting which can't be automated, and introduces a whole new system of mechanics to make really expensive items with each tier.
- Gathering: Same vibe as crafting, unique skills/Resources to manage, with timed nodes that spawn off the ingame clock, or Ephemeral nodes where you get 4 in game hours to get as much of a rare resource as you can before they fade away.
Going to stop there... But, I think I made the point? XIV isn't about the pure PvE grind. I didn't even mention the MSQ, or a bunch of other systems people interact with as their main gameplay loop day to day, but XIV is designed where you're not forced to do anything, you can do what you want, when you want and the game tries its best to keep content alive forever. It isn't 100% the same, but you can go and do raids from the first Xpac of the game and progress through them as a group. The game has changed a lot in 10 years, so it is easier, but it still requires you learning and following mechanics.
I think its critical to understand this concept of XIV. I hear so many players say there's nothing to do when they come from wow and finish the gear grind in a few days. But the point is there's years worth of content to do, but they're disconnected from just the PvE grind that WoW focuses on.
Would love to see you do this again with another batch of MMOs. It’d be fun to see Wizard101 in the bunch. And new world now that it isn’t as new.
Yes I would love to see Wizard101 on this list
Is that game actually still kicking? I never played it but had a friend that did.
@@Audio041194 wizard101 still exists, it gets seasonal updates. some riddled in micro transactions, and some good content/QOL. No idea on new world, I’m on the same boat as you which is why I thought it’d be interesting since it fell off a cliff
OSRS would probably retain a lot more new players if it had a little more linearity, I remember as a kid being so overwhelmed and not having guides for quests was the absolute worst lol. But even to this day without looking up a guide some quests can be very very confusing
Getting in FFXIV can be a little difficult for two main factors.
1. The beginning story is pretty slow.
2. The game doesn’t tell you a lot on how to go about playing the game.
It’s 100% feasible to play FFXIV alone, but it’s not recommended because player interaction plays a big part in helping you learn the game. My recommendation for getting into the game is to either hit up some friends who already play the game and go through it with them to keep you company, or join a Free Company.
Even if anyone reading this is a shy person, I cannot stress enough that joining a FC has many benefits like making friends, finding people who will help you, and getting buffs just from being in a FC.
Also I cannot recommend joining the Novice Network because of how much it varies from server to server. On one server the Novice Network may be very helpful, but on another it may be vile, so if you’re insistent on joining one then maybe go to the FFXIV Reddit and ask people what the Novice Network on your server is like before joining.
Lastly, there is a lot of text in this game because well, it’s a Final Fantasy game. There’s going to be a lot of reading. If you want to skip through the story and review it later, that’s always an option since New Game+ exists to allow players to replay the main story and some side quests.
LOL, my NN on Adamantoise isn't too bad, I have honestly talked to some very helpful people and even been gifted equipment when I was struggling. Then again sometimes It's a hellhole of drama. Depends what day you log in. I've heard some others are terrible though. It's been useful for times when my FC or friends were not online to ask questions.
Maaan, I would love to see you doing this tipe of video for other MMOs, like Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online and EVE Online. It would be nice to see if the less know MMOs have a better experience for new players then those famous ones. Great video!
The MMO as a business model is ultimately unsustainable.
To keep your existing playerbase, you have to add more stuff to do and therefore more complexity.
It gets too complex and nobody can figure out how to play it anymore.
To get back those old players, you have to release a classic mode to get back to basics.
That classic mode requires updates to keep it's existing playerbase.
Classic mode is no longer classic mode and is too complex.
Rinse and repeat. You're not getting any new players at this stage.
See you in Old Skool Old Skool Runescape because OSRS just isn't the game we grew up with anymore.
I hope SNHU's game design program has improved since I was there. I was the first graduating class of that degree and it was almost entirely run by adjunct professors that had no actual experience in the industry. We learned to teach ourselves, which has been an invaluable skill - but I do still feel cheated by the lack of industry connections and lack of having any sort of advisor when it comes to actually moving into the industry post graduation. (I was very frankly surprised to see it advertised on RUclips lol)
I absolutely love Star wars the old republic, it's imo the best and least ptw mmorpg with a small dev team that really fucking cares about the game. The community is fucking awesome as well.
I'm only halfway through, and I expected a lot of negativity from the title and thumbnail, but I appreciate you actually listing off the things you like and being nuanced about the things you felt didn't hit right. I'm glad I was rewarded for taking a chance hoping this wasn't a "urg everything sucks and is bad" video.
The MMO that I play is Guild Wars 2, I would be curious to see your thoughts on its new player experience
Returned to Retail WoW after 10 years(excluding classic and private server shenanigans). Despite being a veteran from long time ago, the experience was still overwhelming. The information overload got really bad at times. I can't even imagine what it's like for brand new players, I would not be surprised in the slightest if they drop the game after 1-3 play sessions.
This seems to be a recurring problem with MMOs. Out of the big MMOs XIV is probably the one with the least bad new player experience, which is a major factor in its success imo. It did what WoW did in 2004, made the genre more accessible. It's a lot less overwhelming when the game forcibly holds your hand for 80 hours as you're required to progress through all the mandatory, slow paced story quests.
Don't worry, Final Fantasy 14 is half gameplay, and half movie/text dump through the entire game! Not just the tutorial.
I just had my experienced friend guide me through it, giving me the tldr of it all.
My question is, why are you doing OSRS and not RS3? OSRS is probably the easiest for new players to understand. I don’t understand why MMO channels always mention RuneScape, but only use OSRS.
I loved final fantasy as a solo game, but the game gives you little incentive to socialize, and I felt increasingly alone. Went back to WoW when classic came out and withing a week I found people that are now life long friends.
There are hundreds of better solo games than FF. If I want a solo experience I play them. That is why i play Classic WoW. A true MMORPG
Hey Idyl, long time viewer and hardcore FFXIV raider here. I was not expecting a crossover, but was super excited to see it. You have a ton of super valid critiques on the early game or FFXIV. Like others have said, the "tutorial" ends at level 15 with your first dungeon, and you are encouraged to do the main story quests above all else (you almost never need to grind experience from side quests, they're just for lore and some unlockables).
If you're ever interested in continuing your FFXIV journey and have any questions, I'd love to chat and provide any insight I can into the game.
It's because of this that I never recommend FF14 to someone looking for an MMORPG. I recommend it to people looking for a normal RPG with a great story.
mmos are not dying , they are just stagnant. runescape has dedicated clientele, if they dont drop dead, they play forever.
Yeah, imo they just went down to a smaller but healthy niche once the novelty of encountering other people online became mundane. The genre will never be as massive as it once was unless all social media was shut down from the internet.
Statiscally the interest has gone down for them, according to many mmo content creators. fact is most people under 25 and under don't really care about mmo's. It is wild but I do hope one can come out that will grab that generation and reignite the passion for them. I don't want them slip away and become a relic of older generations, only time will tell how it will play out though.
FFXIV has a huge learning curve but the community is so welcoming its almost to much
Essentially, it's called taste. What one person might like, the next might hate. Thats fine. Being "spicy" and downvoting every popular MMO doesn't necessarily mean they're really bad, it just means you don't like them. Or idk, they'd get more views for being...."spicy."
Some of these have been around since you were in grade school lol. They didn't succeed from luck alone.
Yep there are so many MMOs for different types of gamer. Korean MMOs are almost their own genre.
@@cattysplat There are like 3 types of MMOs. WoW Clones, Sandbox(only 2 MMOs fall here), Korean MMOs are too similar to WoW clones, and Oldschool MMOs. The vast majority are WoW clones. Like, 90-95%.
You didnt try SWTOR? you're missing out on some quality MmoRPG experience.
Try Guild wars 2
Forget the games, dance montage is the highlight
The issue with Exile's Reach is that it disconnects your tutorial experience from the rest of the world and then drops you into an expansion that's only really interesting if you've played the previous two expansions. Old WoW did a much better job with a more subtle approach; you start off in a "walled off" location (it is part of the greater world but has clear boundaries), and you get introdocued to the game mechanics naturally as you play. You spawn immediately in front of an NPC with a quest marker, which teaches you how to interact with NPCs and accept quests, you get a simple "go kill things" quest that teaches you the basics of combat, after which you get quests which teach you things like how to interact with objects in the world, how to navigate the land, how you learn new spells, etc, and towards the end of it, you get a "we've nothing more for you to do here, go to the next town" quest, so you just go to the new town and continue the loop you've been taught; talk to the NPCs, pick up quests, go do the thing, come back to turn them in. The tutorial is over and you're in the world, playing the game, without you even realizing that's what happened. It's surprisingly elegant despite the simplicity.
Leveling in wow can be really confusing lmao, You don't normally start playing through the current expansion until you reach 10 levels below the max. To level you can just choose whichever expansion or zone you want all the time which is really overwhelming
Idk man, I’d choose “pick a random story that sounds interesting” approach over “play 300 hours before we let you raid” approach.
A true Runescape fan also hates Runescape.
WoW has some ramping up to having you be the champion of whatever allience you are a part of, but it is not very easy to do that as you need to catch up with years of gameplay through multiple expansions
no you dont lol, obviously you dont play wow
@@Dropsey818 you don't know if I do or not, but I do so you can have the wrong opinion
@@ebanker1 the fact that you say catch up through years of expansions clearly tells me you dont play because, going through years of expansions is not a thing anymore, leveling takes like 2 days if you go super slow,
This was probably brought up before but the Trading Post in WoW is not a microtransaction shop, it is in fact a way to get cosmetics they didn't know where to put in the game with currency you can earn by doing random activities in a given month.
Imagine it as a battle pass that you can do in an afternoon.
"It's just cutscene after cutscene in this game!" Yeah, it's what makes FFXIV feel like such a chore. Do a task, everyone and their brother reacts to it, embark on the next task, trigger more cutscenes... Player agency in FFXIV feels vestigial, like they wanted to make a movie but begrudgingly put quests in. And I write that as someone who beat the most recent expansion.
Basically, you get a lot of cutscenes with mostly filler quests in-between.
Final Fantasy XIV is a strange game when it comes to tutorials in the sense that the entire Main Scenario Questline is effectively a long, dripfed tutorial... and then there's blue quests, that are often independent mini-tutorials. However, they usually teach you how to do everything by having you *do things*.
Learning by doing is *awesome.*
Want to learn how to be a dancer? Time for a dance-off! It's a solo instance, so no worries about looking goofy, off you go!
Want to figure out how to access this dungeon? Here's a quest where the major part of it is a mini-adventure to reach the entry of the dungeon, along with a little story about the place's lore you complete primarily by completing the dungeon itself!
Want to get a haircut? Here's a quest to befriend the aesthetician and earn a place on his client list as a VIP. He'll come to give you a trim at any time, now, by using a special bell to signal that you need him.
Want a mount to ride? Well, here's a quest to teach you how to care for a chocobo... and turns out it can also fight alongside you, or even be a pocket healer! Cool stuff!
Most of the dungeons in the game also are naturally tied into the MSQ itself, so just doing the main storyline has you experience the tales of the dungeons and go through many of them on normal difficulty. Oh, and those same dungeons are significantly different on hard difficulty. Usually with completely different creatures, its own little tale to go with it, and a different level it's done at.
The upside is there is a ton of story if you love story, writing and characters. The downside is you need to do a quest to unlock everything gameplay orientated and it does take a lot of time.
The entire game is one big tutorial? What happened to learning by doing with consequences instead of learning by being told what to do? No wonder I didnt last past lv15.
@@poisonated7467 You would never figure out the stuff the game has you do without slowly having them implemented. If they just gave you a wiki and set you loose after the 2 minutes of tutorial intro, the game would be unplayable. Almost every interactions is story and combat, but sprinkled in you learn the systems.
Most of the optional systems are not jammed down your throat, either; you unlock them by doing 'blue quests', which effectively means side quests flagged as unlocking special content.
Don't care about changing your hairstyle? Don't do the funny questline for it.
Don't want to do the complex treasure hunting system? Quests are optional. Don't unlock it.
Don't want to learn about buying houses? Don't go unlock that, either.
@@fuzzwobble Speak for yourself, I would figure out what I figure out by playing. I've done it before in games where there were no tutorials and I didn't look anything up(as much as I could). Anything I couldn't figure out I would ask if there were others who had. Bartering and sharing information is fun when it's not spoiled by the internet.
Game systems should NOT be locked behind quest tutorial content. Very few game systems should be locked behind any content, if any. I'd have to think about this one, but DEFINITELY not locked behind quest tutorial content.
The barber shop in WoW doesnt have a quest to unlock it. You can just walk over and discover it yourself and learn how it works. Much more fun when you discover it yourself.
Same with treasure hunting/professions. Though, modern MMOs do professions pretty terribly. FFXIV does the crafting portion better than most, they got it from EQ2.
Buying houses shouldn't be locked behind quest tutorial content.
Literally everything is better if its not locked behind arbitrary "tutorial" content. Its an insult to the player's intelligence that they need to be taught everything, and boring af.
@@poisonated7467 It's also about the story and introducing characters. Even without that storytelling standard, there are so many systems in that game that it would be OBNOXIOUS if you just had all of them open and had to figure it out on-the-fly, and the quests don't take long.
Unlocking housing takes 5 minutes and it shows you how to find the housing area (it is not intuitive, they are a separate district) and is about as difficult as traveling to an area to unlock it normally; it's just telling you where it is and what it's for. Unlocking haircuts is a fun quest that takes 10 minutes, spawns in the bell so you know where it is now, and gives you a free haircut as one of its rewards. Unlocking at your Grand Company is a questline; you rank up to gain prestige and go on hunts, command squadrons, access worthwhile items, earnable buffs etc and it has a lot of layers to it.
Having a game instead throw all the systems at you hogwild (or not at all and expect you to stumble into them) is garbage design.
Congratulations, though. You seem quite proud that you *can* figure it by yourself. They're games. They're literally made to be played by people as a product.
Figuring out systems in games doesn't make you special, nor does having a game say "Hey, you've unlocked the dungeon interface and the first dungeon. Here's the keybind. Queue up for the dungeon to continue the story." make the person who would otherwise just get "Complete Satasha" on their quest list less intelligent. It saves them time. Figuring out a key binding that didn't exist before would be stupid. That's the kind of things the quests show you.
*Have you heard of the critically-acclaimed MMORPG FINAL FANTASY 14?*
*With an expanded free trial which you can play through the entirety of A Realm Reborn,*
*and the Heavensward expansion up to level 60 for FREE with no restriction on playtime.*
"play", a very loose term
26:04 In WoW's defense, that's not the microtransaction shop. Players get a number of points they can spend on cosmetics just for being subbed, and those points cannot be purchased with real money. (sometimes you get them as part of bundles though).
him talking about wow is the exact reason why i hate what they did to the game. no new players actually get to experience the old world now. you literally have to go out of your way to quest through each of the old zones now.
what so important about the new player experience? are you a new player? probably not, so why is everybody so obsessed, join a decent guild, get on disc, and raid and do M+ its not rocket science, if you dont make a effort to get to know ppl in wow you will just quit, people outside of guilds (pugs) are toxic asf, its not a new player safe haven like FFXIV but they are different
@@Dropsey818 That has literally nothing to do with anything my comment said, but pop off.
I've played WoW off and on since The Burning Crusade, and I still get whiplash from the new player experience. One thing WoW has been horrible at is melding together years (now almost 2 decades) of content. Up though Wrath of the Lich King it mostly made sense. You helped rebuild your faction after the events of Warcraft 3, protect the land from big bads within. Then you go through the dark portal and wrap up the loose ends there, then you go to Northrend and wrap up the loose ends there.
But it really started to fall apart when Cataclysm hit. See, with Cataclysm, they updated all the zones from the original game. They have whole new stories that take place after Wrath of the Lich King. But then when you hit 58 you go through the dark portal, and find that The Burning Crusade has not been updated. You're forced to go back in time. Then you go through that and Northrend and finally get to go back and rejoin the Cataclysm story. Then they added the Pandaren in the next expansion and they had even more of a time warp, since Pandaria takes place even after Cataclysm.
A couple more expansions came out without any more races, with everything just added to the end of the old experience, but then in Battle for Azeroth they came up with the idea of allied races, races that are essentially variations of core races, like the Zandalari Trolls. They would have to go through 8 expansions to get back to the time that they're actually introduced, and that was insane.
And sometimes throughout all of this you'd have multiple versions of the same NPC in the same place, added by different expansions.
So then at the end of Battle for Azeroth, they decided to do a level squish and scale all of the expansions so you could pick one to have as your leveling experience, and only the newest expansion then coming out would be high-level only. Battle for Azeroth was selected as the default new player experience, and it was kept that way even after the next expansion Shadowlands was finished.
But now that Dragonflight is wrapping up, they've said it will be the default new player experience when the next expansion takes over the endgame.
Got bored of ff14 after 3 years not really sure why but WoW regrabbed my heart with DF finally. Its just hard to recover the good image after certain expacs lmao but once you actually start playing it again in DF youll notice lots of nice improvements and tons of new players. A lot of people claim the game still sucks without having really played it recently which is sad. When im in game i only see good things about it. To each his own tho. You could always play classic if you miss old WoW that bad. Honestly i think its just hard to have new original mmo ideas anymore.
I’ve restarted playing Classic Wrath recently. Don’t know if I could ever do Dragonflight because I quit back in MoP and I feel like I’m just way behind on the lore (and also I don’t like or care about it). In contrast I know LITERALLY EVERYTHING about lore up to Wrath so it’s cool to actually experience the content in real life. I’m glad DF has reinvigorated the game because WOW was such a huge part of my childhood and I hate to see it fall.
@HeatherSchrivener-el2mx I would love wrath classic if the combat and animations were updated. Stance swapping on warriors and losing all rage just to use a certain ability feels a bit lame. I much pefer retail combat flow but hate how soulless the world feels in comparison.
@@BasedChadman Ironically many people much prefer a lot of the spec designs in Wrath to their versions in Dragonflight, often due to the homogenisation of spec design among role archetypes in Retail. The amount of "builder-spender" ranged DPS in Retail that largely play the same is a bit silly at this point.
I also know people who prefer the old animations, where classes actually use the race specific 'special' animations, rather than the same generic slash attack animation or the like. There are definitely specs with combat flow similar to Retail, such as Frost DK. Personally I far prefer Wrath's Resto Druid over Retail's, which just feels incoherent and too similar to other healers in comparison, in my opinion.
@@treeaboo I really love most of the healing specs on both retail WoW and on wrath. I’m only just starting to get into wrath and it’s quite different. On retail in M+ I love weaving dps with my healing on all toons best I can. Resto shaman and holy priest are my least favourites on retail probably because they’re the simpliest. I love the way mastery works with resto druid and I enjoy jumping into melee putting bleeds and healing and going boomkin to convoke the spirits for aoe dps and just weaving everything together jumping in and out of melee. It’s so fun when you do it correctly but I also like just putting my hots sitting in tree form maybe going cat form if I have spare mana and am confident. Discipline priest I love ramps in raid and the damage to heal aspect but I also enjoy just shielding on wrath. Resto shaman on wrath is a lot more interesting with all the totems. Stuff like that. I find both retail and wrath fun for different reasons.
I don't understand how one creator doesn't like something and they immediately assume something is dying. Variety is the spice of life, Games will endure if theres is a player base for it regardless of opinion. People said runescape was dying 10 years ago, and then old school came out and revitalized the community and it's flourishing better than ever. You say they struggle to attract new players yet they're coming into the game every day.
11:45 tbh, I love Tutorial Island as well, but the most memorable tutorials for me in RuneScape were the ones that were posed as a quest. The one that I remember the MOST, however, was helping the knight underneath Lumbridge defeat a dragon (I think?)
The poisoned food??
YES! @@stephenwalker4348
I hated that quest lol but thats just my opinion.
I remember it perfectly. Right around all the eoc changes and rs3 they revamped the tutorial. Me and my friend both tried it and we thought the rework was the stupidest thing ever. Maybe we were just stuck in our old ways though but we both highly favored the original tutorial island over the rework with the dragon fight.
The sad situation for OSRS is that pretty much its entire playerbase is old veteran players who signed up in 2003 or sooner. So any new feature that new players may be head over heels for, old players will hate it. It's changing the game they love. So jagex has to decide on losing it's player base to bring on new players or stick to their obsolete engine and just add new bosses. The old players are guaranteed to stick around. The new players might love a new feature but who's to say they'll even commit to the game? Then osrs dies.
That's what I refer to as Runescape 2.
The inbetween of Osrs and Rs3.
The first time I did that dragon tutorial quest underneath lumbridge I quit the game cause I didn't understand what to do. I was still a kid then and my english wasn't perfect.
I vaguely remember some kind of fight in lumbridge, too. Was it a dragon? Wasn't that the very first rework?
As a long time MMO player I'd say Lord of the Rings online has the best new player experience. Some text dumps but they gradually thin out over time. The starter zones have a few intro quests that teach the basic skills and culminate into a mini dungeon of sorts. When something new happens after leaving you get information about that as well. My worst "recent" experience was with classic Everquest which I finally decided to try. There was ZERO tutorial! They had a bar to enter the tutorial but it was grayed out so I guess they assumed they would be getting no new players. Even with over 20 years MMO experience it was quite frustrating.
its got to much monetization, and restrictions
If you're talking about P99 EQ, Im surprised that you found it frustrating. If you're talking about retail EQ, I can understand.
17:12 As a game designer (incidentally working on an MMO), I can say you are _exactly_ the right person to be reviewing new player experiences. This is precisely how players react.
P.s. 21:57 - Thank you. 😅
I think WoW Classic Era and EverQuest Project 1999 would be better introductions to the games as they were intended with the simplest design.
Final Fantasy XIV Online is designed to be a standard single player JRPG experience with its hours upon hours of Main Scenario Story Quest
“Final Fantasy XIV Onlinr is designed to be boring”
Glad to know!
@@max7971 Let me guess, fornite or cod player? Talk about boring.
@@thefilmdirector1I've played all the mainline game's..if it walks like an MMO and talk's and looks like an MMO, it's an MMO, ugly and boring generic looking characters with text boxes everywhere, check, check and check
Really fun and neat video :)
I'd like to see your take on the new player experience in Elder Scrolls Online and Guild Wars 2 👍
Back in the days WoW had Elden Ring feeling. Then it changed to Farm Ville.
6:00 You say OSRS uses a seperate launcher... and then immediately launched it from the launcher that can also launch RS3 lol
To be fair 90% of player use runelite
OSRS is brutal to a new player. I started playing the game in 2021 and I was so lost. It took me literally a year to learn farming. I’m nearing base 70s in all skills finally but wow it’s been a journey. I still have a bunch of quests to do. The game does help you at all in what to do. RUclips saves the game
Playing on Runelite will provide you with entirely the opposite experience.
Are you on mobile by chance?
i have to agree with you about retail wow, im a long time wow player, 16 years even. once classic came out i loved it, i tried a couple times to get back into retail wow but could never because i always felt so overwhelmed about everything and ended up going back to classic wow.
15:38 - I love the fact that you complain about her making fun of your name, ask "what you did to her," immediately after slaughtering her name and resorting to "mommy..." all completely unironically.
I won't stand for this Mommy Miounne slander!
I feel like you should have done RS3 as well as OSRS to really get the new player experience. You think you'd have an easy time because you already know OSRS, but trust me, you won't.
Did you watch hannannie's rs3 series? 😂