🤔 How to select a trowel and does back buttering a tile really work?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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I have often been asked what trowel size should be used with a certain size tile, in this video i try to explain how to choose the correct notch size for the tile you want to install. The most important determining factor that will dictate the type of trowel that should be used is the size of the tile, however it is not a hard and fast rule. The shape of the tile, the pattern on the back of the tile, whether the tile is cupped and other factors might influence the trowel size selection. In general the larger the tile, the larger the notch size. There are also different shapes for the teeth or notch of the trowel, I also show how back buttering the tile can help improve coverage. Just to be clear, what does coverage actually mean? So when you spread your thinset mortar with a trowel, you are actually gauging out a quantity of mortar to a certain thickness, that then will be flattened when the tile is set to create a bond coat at the substrate to tile interface that should give a minimum amount of depth which will cover the entire surface of the tile, or a minimum area that is usually 80% for dry areas and 95% for wet areas, exposed areas or for natural stone. All tile installed by Sal DiBlasi, Elite-tile Company, in the Boston North Shore area. This video contains affiliate links, which means I will receive a small commission if you click on the product link.
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Very clear and concise description Sal, with many options. Thanks.
Real helpful information. I got my shower wall project coming up and am going with 12 x 24 Home Depot polished Carrera porcelain. I was not sure on trowel size but took 1/2 inch. I recall the back buttering from a long way back, but never knew about notching the back, that was a great idea if you did not have the bigger trowel. I like how you emphasized checking the coverage, prob most important step after properly mixing thinnest to manufactures directions.
That last hack was genius. Like i'm too lazy to go buy a larger trowel, but I"ll get my my lines deep enough by having lines on surface and back butter.
Doing a complete remodel in my two bathrooms.... I have never tiled before and you are my all time favorite for advice and it is coming out perfect thanks to you.
If you ever get out to the Phoenix area i would treat you to the best steak dinner we could find.
Thank you so much for all your advice
Was in Phoenix a few years back, Love stake, might have to come just for that.😊
I’m just about done with my bathroom renovation. Me and my adult children did everything, except the plumbing. The demo revealed all sorts of problems, from missing, cut, and bellied floor joists, to hidden splice boxes in the wall, etc. We discovered chopped up wall studs, everything was out of square, nothing plumb or level. It was a nightmare, and for a while. I considered hiring contractors to get me out of this mess. I do have some experience and knowledge, my father was a GC and I often gave him a hand, especially on big jobs. My kids have helped me around the house over the years, but never been involved with a project like this. Anyway, it’s been a while since I last tiled or was involved in any significant construction project, and deep down wondered if I could pull this off. I’ve watched a ton of your videos, as well as videos from others. My father is no longer around (I miss that man every single day) so I have never body to ask or talk to, but thankfully there is RUclips. It helped me make learn, decisions, or confirm what I was thinking. Because of people like you and others who take the time to do this for the benefit of others, you guys are leaving a legacy and I just think that’s a great thing, so thank you for your help. The only thing I did differently from your instruction, was where I placed the cement board. Otherwise, I used many of your techniques and even purchased a diamond miller off your Amazon store for my grinder, and man did that thing come in handy. I never knew they existed until one of your videos. Even if I never use it again after this project, it is well worth the price.
Great story, thanks for watching my videos.
Thanks for this video Sal. I have just laid a slate hearth for my wood burning stove here in the UK and this has helped me greatly. Much appreciated. Thanks again.
This has solved a major problem I've had thanks so much
Thanks for watching my video.
always better with butter! but it increases my DIY mess factor by 200% 😂
Everything i have learned to do tile is from this channel. Thank you for taking the time to film edit and put time aside to pave the way in tiling fir others.
Thanks for watching!
He’s paving ways of more than one kind
I was told thay dryset is unmodified thinset. You say to use dry set mortar.... does that mean that the lft thinset I use should be unmodified even if the thinset is specifically for large tiles? I'm confused. Lft thinset is going to be modified.
Dry set mortar is the actual name for thinset, it includes unmodified and modified. ANSI A118.1 is unmodified A118.4, A118.11 and A115.15 are all modified Mortars.
ruclips.net/video/jB3qVLjLY1k/видео.html
Thank you sir.
Welcome!
Great video again. I am little bit confused, should i use the trowel for buttering or just a primer film, our tile are 120x120mm which trowel you recommend?
??
I wonder why the size of the tile matters. Couldn't a 24" sq tile be conceived as 4 12" sq tiles? Perhaps because less force per area applied? One reason I can see that a large tile needs proportionately more mortar is to fill varying depths to the floor.
What size trowel would you recommend for 24"x48" tile? 3/4 u notch or 1/2x1/2 with notching on substrate and tile? As always appreciate the work you put in to teach us! Thanks!
1/2 on both surfaces
@@SalDiBlasi thank you!
Great video, great guy!
Thanks for watching!
Excellent
Thank you
6mil. 10 mil. In england and it goes up sal obvious . nice video .again
I was watching my tiler and he wasn’t putting enough tinset I believe. He only buttered part of the tile in the back and nothing on the walls or the floors... and didn’t even move it back and forth. I don’t even think he was making clear lines using the trowel. We did 12x24 on the walls and 24x24 on the floors. The tiles seem to be stuck pretty solid. Am I goi g to have problems down the road?? I’m now worried.
Hey Sal, i'm a new subscriber and doing a tile diy project. Can I lay wall ledger tile directly on stucco wall?
Isn't the purpose of backbuttering less to do with getting full coverage but more to do with making sure the tile has adhesion in case the thinset has skimmed over a bit and/or your tile is too porous to achieve a bond, thereby sucking all the moisture out of the thinset too quickly from only collapsing the ridges?
All of that plus what I said, some of which is exactly what you pointed out.
It is also kind of like the glass plates you use on a microscope. A drop of water between them and press them together makes an intense suction between the two once the air is out. It is very hard to get them apart.
Awesome Video.. Just a question though.. what size tile for what thickness of tile? If using a 12" x 24" x 1/4" tile, would you still need to use a 1/2" or could you use a 3/8" trowel and back-butter or back-trowel? I'm a bit confused about the actual requirement or 'normal trowel' as it were for certain size tiles and tile thicknesses. Thanks,
Tile thickness is irrelevant.
@@SalDiBlasi
Thanks, I also found your video on 'which trowel' to use and that helped out quite a bit and answered basically everything I was wondering about... Cheers,
Thanks, glad it helped
It’s my first time ever tiling I have a 1/2” trowel and my tiles are 12” x24” after putting thinset on the floor and troweling it and then back buttering the tile both in the same direction am I supposed to lift each and every tile to see my coverage and then trowel both sides again?
No, check coverage when you start and then every once in a while.
@@SalDiBlasi thanks
Hi what size trowel would you recommend to fit 600mm x 300mm ceramic tiles to tile backer board?
At least a 1/2" deep trowel.
What size of trowel you recommend for 8x48 porcelain tile
You will need a big trowel, but to find out set a couple of tiles, see what you bet for coverage and then adjust from there.
god dammit... i wish i found this before i started my tiling job... my back buttering has been wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too thick. thanks for making the video
Thanks for watching my video.
Also do as much area as you can install wet, cuz once you get a skin and starts drying,>>, no bond. I did a job once in my youth ,, 🙄
Thanks for watching my video.
Is he saying patent or pattern
good question, may never be answered.
I’ve adopted your backbuttering 4 step center to corner technique and it goes great! I like just a skim on the tile, sort of like a “Primer” for the mortar to get a head start.
That is awesome!
I’ve back buttered the tiles in my kitchen and if anyone says back buttering doesn’t work , than it’s probably one of the lazier contractors.. literally can take any one 5 min of testing the theory in person to see that back buttering works , I heard some telling me BB wasn’t necessary n I had a feeling they weren’t correct about it, I ended up just doing it myself n I’m happy I did it because I ended up w a good install.. just dropped a metal pan pretty hard on them last night n no cracks. If it wasn’t BB it would of had weak points in it when exposed to impacts
You’re teaching style is so relatable and informative. Thank you for sharing. I can only imagine the years of experience it’s taken to perfect this.
Thanks, glad it helped
You are cute! 😘
Sal the tile boss! Helped me yrs ago when I first started setting. Great guy.
Thanks
Thanks Sal, you covered everything I needed for a small job I need to do which also involves re-grouting.
Have you done a re-grouting video? I couldn't find one on your channel.
I back butter every tile even subs, takes a bit longer but they aren't coming off
Any suggestions for a large 8"x80" wood look plank tile? About 1/4" thick and smooth underside. Trying to decide between 1/2", 3/4" or Euro style. Tile manufacturer is not responsive.
Thanks for the cool instruction on coverage! Do you have a video on self leveling compounds? Thanks
Working on something if it pans out.
Water has surface tension, and all thinset is water based. Having thinset on both mating surfaces essentially eliminates the tendency of the water to resist wetting a dry surface
What brand and type of thinset and/or additives would you use if you were going to set 12x12 ceramic tile over a painted concrete - covered outdoor porch? Thx
Have to remove the paint, otherwise it will fail does not matter how good the mortar is.
I thought a lot about this video as I was tiling a kitchen with 12x24's, and I noticed sometimes the angle of the trowel changes, like when you reach far ahead. the notches are only correct when the trowel is close to 90 degrees, but when I reached far, it was like 45, meaning the ridges and notches were half as tall as they should have been.
Notched trowels are designed to be used at a 45 degree angle.
@@SalDiBlasi this is one bit of information that I haven't found on any video. It makes sense, and if you need a little more thinset on an area then you can turn it up to 90 degrees without switching to another trowl.
sal would using a vibrator on the tile help with coverage
You need merch. T-shirts that say "BACK BUTTERING IS NOT ALWAYS THE ANSWER!"
😊👍
Love your comments about "Back Butta"...lol
Love ya Sal.
Thanks Phil
Very helpful video on the concept and theory of trowel size along with the reasons behind back buttering. Taking into account the size of the tile, the construction of how the back of the tile looks etc.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Learning so much from your channel. Thank you. Preparing to tile wood like tiles in house and not as nervous now from watching so many of your videos/tutorial.
Wish I would have watched this before applying the tiles i did today. Lol. I think over buttered.
😊👍
Thank you sir!! I bought you a cup of coffee..enjoy,,,Dave C
Awesome! Thank you!
Good information I need..thank you
Glad I seen this before I start tilling , you a top bloke, kind regards from Yorkshire,
regards from Boston
Great video very clear n to the point
6×24 shower tile, 1/4 trowel back butter it. Mortar, what is the best 2 use??
1/2" deep trowel amzn.to/31ufar5
wow , i know how to tile now lol ...
Sal that was a Super Tip I wish many years of continued success truly priceless information. GOD BLESS 🙏 BIG J CHICAGO
There are things a book can teach you and others that can't. The experience you have, the knowledge, and tricks no book can't teach that. I just subscribed cause I like to see masters explaining, and doing wonders.
Thanks for watching my video.
Excellent. TY Sal.
Great tips Sal. I always back butter when installing floor tile.
Recently tiled my shower and was so focused on the placement of all the accent tiles and the metal trim frame, I forgot to back butter the tiles. I pulled one off to see the % of contact, it was well under 10%. Not even close to the 95% goal. Totally my fault so I pulled it all down. I followed the glass accent tiles precisely, a bond coat with 3/16 v ridges. When I pulled one of those sheets off, I found very little contact. So I pulled down the accent tiles and metal, cleaned everything and called it a day. Mixed a new batch of Schluter All Set (great stuff), used a 1/4 notch trowel on the wall. Back buttered everything this time (even the accent tiles). Coverage was 95 or better. Wife and I spent hours cleaning out the excess thinset around all the accent tiles. However, those tiles are on the wall to stay.
Hello , your thoughts on wedge leveling spacers. I make sure the walls and floor are level ,plus constantly use my level as I work .Really enjoy your work .
This guy has the best tiling videos, thank you for everything you post. I like that you are very detail oriented, and very specific. I work in engineering, and this guy has the very specific mindset of not only explaining how, but why things are being done a certain way. Also always following manufacturers recommended instructions, as while many products are similar, they are not all the same. 👌
Not rocket science, just need to do things the proper way.
Anything 12x12 or bigger I use 1/2x1/2 trowel and back butter . It should give u 100% and help with uneven flooring or any low spots
I back butter tile anyway.....
You are the man Sal.
😊👍
Great information, thanks Sal!
You bet!
Wow so the bigger the trowel the more coverage
The goal is the correct trowel with the correct depth of bond coat, there is such a thing as too much thinset if the bond coat exceeds the depth that the mortar is designed to be used at. That is why we have LHT mortars to allow for deeper a thicker bond coat.
Great video and explanation Mr DiBlasi...the king of tiles.
Best tile guy by far. Worst video skills by far. Sal your the best but get a videographer please. It will make your videos much more pleasurable to watch. Sometimes it’s pretty painful.
I know, but I have to make a living and there are only so many hours in a day. All the jobs seen in my videos are actual installs for customers, it is the real thing, no mockups, or staged stuff, so the conditions are never ideal.
Hey Sal I totally understand I don't mean any harm.
I actually enjoy his videos, specially the fastfoward ones lol
Sal is a pro, tile is no easy job. There’s lots of things you must know first before becoming an installer. It’s not just mixing thin set and putting tile.
Thank You!
very good video except for the closed captioning. It makes me wonder how it could misunderstand what you're saying so often. It's funny you should look at the closed captioning. But back to the video. Great information and very helpful. Thanks so much.
Yes.
I will be installing 24”x48” porcelain tile for my shower, I plan on using a 1/2” trowel BUT why can’t I use a 1/4” trowel? Why is it that the bigger tile needs bigger grooves? As long as I back butter I don’t see why it would matter, this tile is flat just like small tile is.
Try it, find out. I can tell you what 36+ years of experience has taught me, what industry guidelines recommend, But if you think that your logic serves you better, go for it.
Thank you Sal, I have learned so much from all your videos. I also am a patreon supporter. I just can’t believe that some guys will take the time to make such snarky, sarcastic comments. Just stop it, you sound really ignorant.
Thanks for being a Patron, Trolls are everywhere, just a fact of life online.
잘보고 갑니다 ^^👍👍👍
Sheesh the entire house is made up of false walls. Even the bathroom.
Great job Sal all 750 videos are very informative🤙🏽🤙🏽🤙🏽
Actually 761 😜😊
I always skim the wall and notch trowel the back of the tile ensuring full coverage. On a floor , I notch trowel the floor and skim the back of the tile. Another thing I do is step up the trowel size by an 1/8" of the recommended size. Your the best Sal
Good video very informative
Glad it was helpful!
Using a 12x24 tile , a 3/8 trowel on both wall and 3/8 back butter should give ~ 100 % ?
Yes
anything over 18in on the long side should probably be 1/2 notch and back butter. Helps to deal with the bow in the tile more easily.
@@mikez4132 he said 3/8 backbutter
@@oWhiteMonster he would just have to try and see... prolly more build up than necessary.
Great demo and help when trying to decide trowel size! Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks Sal, learned a lot from you. Your videos are the best .
great info sal
I am in the process of my first tiling attempt and happened to stumble across your channel and glad I did... excellent tutorials and I will be watching many of them. At the moment, I am planning to install 4"x12" flat subway tiles and currently have a 1/4 x 1/4 trowel and wonder it it will require back buttering or not? Since I have approximately 180 tiles to install I would prefer not to back butter each, but will do what is best. Maybe I should step up to a 1/4 x 3/8 trowel which could possibly eliminate back buttering. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to help us DIY'er do a better job at tilting.
Thanks, glad it helped
I am tiling a shower wall with 3/8" thick 12x24 porcelain tile. I have a 1/2" x 1/2" trowel. I know that I obviously need to use the notched trowel on the walls, but when I back butter the tile, do I use the notched side as well, or the flat side?
Most tines the flat side, but see how it goes and adjust accordingly.
So if a larger trowel can give you proper coverage by only troweling the floor, why would you choose a smaller trowel and HAVE to backbutter AND trowel the floor? That's twice as much work. What would be the scenario were you would want to backbutter even if you're getting proper coverages?
So back buttering is always a good idea since keying in the thinset to the surface and the tile will increase bond strength. watch this ruclips.net/video/XV_rcrHPk_c/видео.html
Great help albeit I've laid most of my conservatory tiles already so now very worried there isn't enough coverage and thin set support. The tiles have been down for a week so removing is a big job now. Do I risk keeping them and finish the perimeter cut tiles or relay the lot (buy the packs of tiles again and start over..? My wife is going to kill me if I suggest the latter as I've taken too long as it is!
I should have used a levelling system too (lippage - 600 x 300 cheap ceramics with some curvature). Could'nt be worse. Are there recovery options?
Not doing it correctly does not guarantee a failure, but does increase the odds, doing it correctly does ensure success. I would play the waiting game at this point, it may be just fine.
the master at work. I always go to Sal mainly because I can see the quality of work and his deep experience...
😊👍
Sal... For natural stone marble. Flat on back. Should you use a small trowel to back butter? And on a concrete floor what size trowel to use?
Size trowel depends on the size of your tile. Set a few tiles, lift and check for coverage, make adjustments as needed.
Thank you sal
No worries
What notched trowel would you recommend to backbutter with on a 15x30 porcelain floor tile, while using a wedge leveling system.
Most times you will use the flat side of the trowel to back butter the tile. You would use a very large notch trowel to spread the thinset on the substrate. However it is sometimes necessary to notch both the substrate and the tile. in that case you would use a smaller trowel to achieve the correct thickness of the bond coat.
Thank you for another great video. Your wealth of knowledge and experience, can't be duplicated.
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks for the lessons in trowel size and back buttering. I’m getting ready to tile a backsplash in my bathroom. 😁
Thanks for watching my video.
You are a true craftsman.i appreciate you so much.
THANK YOU
I appreciate that!
Superb lessons thanks
Super
Super
I went with 1/2x1/2 on my 6x24 floor planks n seems im getting 95-100 coverage without back buttering. Leveling clips also👍
Great.👍
Excellent video
Great video, Sal. I'm getting ready to install 6"x36" porcelain tiles on shower wall. Walls are pretty flat. I'm going to back butter the tile. But will a 1/4" trowel with back buttering be sufficient?
The tile will be laid vertically- 36" vertical. There's a little bowing at about the half way point in the tile, meaning there's a slight 3/16" gap between the wall board and the back of the tile. Or shouid I go up to a 3/8" trowel? As I go up the wall, there's not as much between the back of the tile and the wall board, pretty much flat against each other. Thank you.
Use a 1/2" trowel and a leveling system to deal with lippage, be sure to back butter every tile.
I guess size matters with tiles.
Very nice as always... love it. Learned a lot from you over the years... thanks for sharing the knowledge...
Glad to help
Excellent video. I see now where my contractor messed up. Thanks.
Glad it helped
Thanks Sal
😊👍
Sal, you have great tips and do excellent work. I have a 1/4" x 1/4" trowel for 3x12 subway tile, it sounds like I should back butter it too (smooth way) just to be extra certain of full coverage. I did back butter the floor tile but that was hexagonal 10". One thing I haven't figured out anywhere is why can't I do running bond pattern with 3x12 subway? it says because of lippage but wouldn't you have lippage too with a 1/3 offset? I hate the looks of the 1/3 offset and want to just do running bond...
You can try doing 1/2, but you might have trouble with some tiles. Long tiles, especially the cheaper ones, are not flat, when you do half running bond you put the lowest edge of the tile right next to the highest edge, which will result in lippage. Lippage is where one tile edge is higher than the adjacent tile. Moving the tiles to 1/3 will minimize lippage because you keep the low and high parts of the tile far from each other.
@@SalDiBlasi Gotcha, maybe I will go with the 1/3 then. I'll lay them out on a flat surface and check how flat they are ahead of time. One would think 12" isn't that long and it wouldn't be more than 1/16" difference across there, but I'll take this into consideration. They are Daltile brand subway tile.
Thanks for the quick response!