Let me just clarify, COVERAGE IS key to BOND. The more FULL coverage achieved with your thinset WILL enhance the BOND of the tile to substrate. BB'ing your tile will IMPROVE the BOND , BUT is NOT a replacement for COVERAGE....... That is as clear as I can get.
EdgeStripKits why did you skip the bb tile over the membrane? I'm going over concrete using mapeguard 2 as my underlayment. I'm new at this and looking for any information. Here's my project. I'm laying 490 sq ft of 18×18 at a 45. My base is concrete slab. I have ground down my high points and used self level on the valley's. My floors were obviously made by the lowest bidder. Lol So, I got them level. The tile I'm using is porcelain and with a half inch trowel to set them. Does this sound correct? Any information is appreciated it. 👍
I didn't skip BB'ing one tile for each substrate? Ditra had a non-modified thin set that was grey. Is that what you are thinking? I can't give you specific advice on your project without know ALL the factors.
EdgeStripKits Thanks for the reply. Your right you did BB all tiles. My bad. I'm having a some problems with my thin set. I bb the tile lay it, but if it doesn't fall exactly perfect. My thin set is like rubber. I push the tile into the correct spot but my thin set pulls it back. What is going on?
@@maces1405 The rubbery effect is probably due to suction underneath the tile. But keep in mind that I do not know much about tiling, that is why I am watching videos on RUclips.
Interesting comments to your video. Love the one that says BB takes too long costing $$. Don't hire that guy. Floor tile should always be BB. Walls depends on size of tile. Also the quality of the thin set. The demo was great experiment. For non-believers of BB do this. Try both methods, Immediately after laying a tile try to lift it up. You will find the BB tile creates a "suction" type adhesion making it difficult to raise tile. I not only BB tile I use notch side. Creates a interlocking basket weave effect when both notched sides meet. My mentor has been tiling for 56 years. I've had to remove his work 30 yrs plus later and always proves to be extremely difficult. I've removed tile from cookie cutter homes and I could use a butter knife to remove tiles. There is a difference and why wouldn't you "overkill" to ensure a quality job. It comes down to the installer. Are you a mass production installer or a quality conscience installer? I always BB, takes 1% more time and never had a call back. Why fix it when it's not broke.
Back buttered tile will always "appear" to have no voids when the tile is removed. This is no substitute for a proper spread of thinset, but only an added assurance. There can still be a void between the back butter and the thinset if the thinset is not spread properly.
That is conclusive. Thanks for taking the time to do this test. I can't understand why people don't back butter. If their price is so tight they have to skimp they should try and sell quality.
So true. As a professional, I explain to the customer the correct way a job should be done and then give him/her my price. Often times, they cheapout. Too bad, at least I don't have the followup headaches. Not only do customers drive down quality by hiring hacks, these hacks give us pros a bad name.
I am having problems finding quality in my country, I'm willing to pay two or three times as much just get some quality. but then you see that people who charge twice as much still do a shit job :(. Basically It's really hard to estimate a tradesman before hiring and price should never drive quality down imo.
Best video on floor tile installation ive seen. Covers all types of underlayment with a consistent technique that is per manufacturers guidelines with the exception of back buttering. It appears HardiBacker is the best underlayment but i put down Durock
I am replacing 12" x 12" tiles that did not adhere well to concrete floor when originally installed, just a few here and there. This demo was very valuable to me, and I've seen many that werent. Thanks.
I did a porcelain floor on plywood with BB in a very high traffic kitchen. Two tiles have cracked in ten years between the sink and stove standing area. One cracked when an entire pot of water fell on it. The other (tile next to first one that cracked) cracked under normal conditions a couple of months later. Everything else very solid, but I agree with this video that BB is important, but I also learned about the importance of good backer board. Thanks for making this video.
Excellent video, there are so many knuckleheads not BB, and never will, as seen by the comments below. But BB is certainly required on travertine, and large tiles and then tapping on the tile with a mallet.
Yup. Got my answer. If you arent using tile mortar. You better BB because voids are near impossible to avoid. Broken and loose tile is what i got from using a all purpuse cement. Although the manufacterer claimed was ok for tile. It wasnt. I did BB the tiles i replaced and it held for all but one. Used tile mortar and BB that and it held. I did this job on a near zero budget and the broken tile cost was greater than the savings in mortar. Inexpensive tile with proper mortar is not an issue. Not to BB is. Thanks Mr.Green.
Twenty years ago I tiled about 1200 sq feet of my house. I did not back-butter anything. Not one tile ever came loose. Now I am re-tilling the same floor. I noticed great differences in difficulty removing the tile. Some places the thinset stayed on the tile and some places it stayed on the concrete floor. They were all set by me with the same method. The only thing I can guess for the differences is maybe the thinset was dryer is some areas. However I am confident they would all have lasted another 100 years without coming loose. I have since learned about back-buttering and am doing it this time. The tiles seem to set easier as I have more material to work with but after watching this video and my experience, I don't think it matters that much for longevity.
Great vid. I back buttered a wall that used false interlocking stone and I got such a tight bond that it ripped the first layer of paper off the drywall when I needed to remove it when I noticed a chipped stone. I spent too much time on it though. Because I notched the back buttered side too... live and learn.
This is my sicology Since the first day I used to back butter my tiles no one told me to do that. I did it on my own wil so the tile can bond as hard as possible and today I am greatly confirmed that back buttering is essential. Forever people said you dont want back buttering and that was true but with back buttering the tile wont come off or crack Thanks alot for confirming me
Some of the voids on the non back buttered tiles where simply because there wasn't enough thin set on the substrate. (Since this was a demo you can see that most of the corners have this issue.)Back buttering is not necessary on smaller tiles if you apply enough thin set and set them correctly. On larger tiles, back buttering is very important because sometimes the tiles are so big they tend to have a bend or curve on them. You can actually test this by placing the tile upside down and see if it spins.....because the center will be slightly bulged out. You need to back butter large tiles so that you fill that potential void the curving of the tile will make.
Great video! I just got done tiling a bathroom floor using the Ditre Schluder membrane & just after 24 hours of letting the thinset dry it already feels very strong. Great video of comparisons
Thank you for the video. I am about to tile my kitchen for the first time. From the many videos I watched so far I realized that total beginner like myself should better stick with maximum 12"x12" tiles and use anti lippage tiling systems. Back-buttering is going to be third tip for a total novice like me.
This video accomplished one thing definitively. Nobody will be silly enough to put thinset on bare plywood. I think Phil sneezed with a prybar in hand and the tiles on the plywood got scared, ran away.
For Heavy duty commercial installations, yes it's a good idea or wall installations. But for residential installs it's an unnecessary overkill based on 45 years in the flooring industry. Plus tearing out a Back buttered floor tile over concrete is a nightmare, labor wise.
The main reason that the back buttered tiles were a stronger bond was absorption. If you sprayed water on the back of the other tiles 10 minutes before laying, the bond would be just as strong. When you have a porous surface the bond is never as good as the surface sucks the moisture from the adhesive and weakens the bond. Its the same for painting walls and woodwork, or plastering in which you would PVA the walls first to minimise suction.
+niptodstan I beg to differ. The biggest reason for the voids is because nothing is ever 100% flat or straight. (Both the tile and substrate) The reason why back buttering helps is to fill those minor voids sometimes 1/16 or 1/8 or more thick. wetting tiles is not the way to go. So many reasons why it would be a bad idea to wet tiles prior to install. A few reasons: 1. Thinset would not be set as per the mftr. 2. sagging. Especially on walls. 3. Leaks if you wet it too much. and so on. Same theory applies to carpenters when they glue many joints or biscuits they don't just apply glue to one side. and God forbid they use water to help absorption :)
You are not begging to differ. You are arguing a completely different point than +niptodstan is making. You both have valid points, and both point to BB rather than not.
Actually niptodstan has a point. In gluing together joints that pull a lot of moisture in woodworking, ie miter joints, it is common to mix up a little glue and water and let it soak into the joint and dry, then apply glue and assemble the joint. This way the glue doesn't get all pulled into the end grain fibers of the joint. Maybe using water to set tile is not a great idea, but it can help with wood. Also, efficient woodworkers apply glue to one side of the joint, like an edge joint. If theres squeeze out, its surely coating the whole joint.
Finally someone that got it right. This of course goes only for Ceramic tiles. Porcelain Granite marble and similar non porous materials just need to be wiped with dam cloth to remove dust. As with any glue clean surface make for perfect bond.
Of course the backbuttered tiles didn't show any voids because they had been coated with thinset. It doesn't mean it didn't have voids, they just couldn't be seen as easily.
@@RubbinRobbin My theory is that even though the back butter does not increase coverage, and there may be small voids that same as a dry tile, the fact that the thinset is keyed and bonded to the tile, and then that thinset is bonded to the mud on the floor, it increases the transfer and bond strength. If you ever tore up a crappy tile job you can see that sometimes the ridges never really "stuck" to the tile, when you pull the tile up there is no mud on the back, its all stuck to the floor. Backbuttering makes sure the thinset sticks and is fully keyed into the tile. If that makes sense.
For crying out loud. Don't let the mud tack over. Be aware of air and temperature conditions and forget the back butter on any tile less than 14x 14. I will say that if you are a DIY then it's fine to do it as you may not know product limitations and proper trowel techniques and sizes but make sure to keep a sponge handy cuz you about to get messy. Lol P.S. stop pointing out voids due to no mud being underneath tile in the first place.
Another thing you can see on your back buttered tiles the notching for the trowel adhesive is not visible but you are saying there's better adhesion ?. If it had better adhesion your tile would shatter into smaller segments not allowing an inspection on the back of the tile am i correct ?.
I usually thickly back butter the tile and press them on without applying mastic to the substrate for wall jobs. If I need to cut the job short, it's easier to clean and start again later. Thoughts?
Brilliant experiment. Could you please show one where you go over existing ceramic tiles, I would love to see what happens as I am doing a tile over tile installation. Thank You.
If you're getting voids, sans BB, doesn't that just mean you didn't apply enough thinset to the substrate, or provide enough pressure when setting the tile?
Thank you for the confirmation about back buttering tile. I’ve always back buttered the tiles but always wondered if it was necessary, being a novice tile setter. Now I’ve discovered that I’ve been doing the process wrong. I’ve been using the notched side of the trowel and creating another set of mortar grooves on the tile. Tho this might produce a much tighter bond, I’m sure it was totally unnecessary considering I’ve been using small tiles.
Great vid. Just for clarity. Is it worth buttering the back of the tiles applied to detra Mat, as your video showed them both coming off in a similar fashion
I'm not a pro but have done a fair amount of large format tile DIY with success. I use the T-Lock leveling system and then walk on the freshly installed tiles. This ensures 100% coverage and saved loads of time and mess. You can see for yourself by putting a sheet of plexiglass (not buttered) on a section of floor combed with thinset. Walk on it, and you'll see the air bubbles collapse, achieving 100% coverage. For vertically placed tiles I can't provide that level of evenly distributed pressure. So I back butter and then tap with a rubber hammer.
I am a pretty good handyman but, as I don't tile but once in awhile, I make it a practice to back butter. Just one more thing that could help compensate for my lack of experience.
Yes Mr Green, Since the tiles are not perfectly flat, isn't it possible that a skim coat is not enough to prevent voids, and that the skim coat may only make it appear that the thin-set touched the tile and a void may still be there? I sometimes use a different size notch trowel on the tile. It would be good to see a video on problems when doing a patch job as when some tiles pop up or the bonding fails and the client wants to replace only the spot that pops up. Because it can be difficult to level new tiles to old ties.
You don't want to add water to the back of most tile.... It is a bond breaker. SOME, ceramic can be soaked. IF YOU ADD WATER to the back of the tiles and it ABSORBS into it, Then Yes, you can moisten it so the tile does NOT pull the water out of your thinset to early before it is cured,
I get that tiles should be laid properly especially for floor tiles but on wall tiles I often wonder if they’re laid too well. They tend to get replaced every 15-20 years so as long as they hold but then come off with relative ease I’d say that’s the best amount of adhesion. What that is I don’t know though.
Great and professional video. Really helpful. I'm about to start a large tiling volunteering project with no tiling experience and your video is much needed. Thanks.
Even if there is more coverage on bb than not, isn’t there still more than sufficient thinset on non bb tiles ? I’m not convinced that the non bb tiles wouldn’t have held up just fine
Apparently, everyone has there own system for laying tile...If you live in Las Vegas, NV, Can you lay tile and grout properly? Starting with FLATTENING of the FLOOR...
I do all my own tiling and always back butter. Many contractors won't bother and for the most part the tiles will probably last a good while anyway. But in areas of high traffic they will mess up sooner. The time you're pleased a contractor skimped is when you're removing tiles.
I had to remove tiles that I put in our bathroom 20 years ago. I did not use back-butter (did not know about it) and all the tiles came out in pieces and it took me hours to remove all of them. I guess, I will skip back-buttering in the future too.
It makes sense that a BB tile will have a stronger adhesion to the surface. However, is that really required? An analogy would be to glue and screw drywall to the stud or just screw it to the stud. Both will work, barring any significant house settling. So, are tiles going to perform to the requirements of the traffic, whether they are BB or not? If the adhesion force of a non BB'd tile is X and the performance requirement is X/2, then what is the point of BB'ing?
Do you have to remove small pieces of adhesive left behind on concrete after removing linoleum floor before putting on thinset? Will it not stick if you don't?
Phil, great video. One quick question. From your results would you take away that on a ditra install back buttering is not necessary like it is with the other installs. And that tile --> plywood is a no go ever! Thanks!
I tiled my bathroom and my kitchen, the bathroom tiles I back buttered as they were reasonably big tiles in my kitchen the tiles were quite small so I didn't back butter them, neither show any signs of moving and that's ten years on. This is a bit like gluing a pocket hole joint, do you need to do it ? No , Will gluing make the joint stronger ? Yes
I am a floor installer and I see lots of different opinions in the comments. Based on my experience back buttering helps give you a stronger bond, helps reduce the possibility of hollow spots in the tile, and makes the tile more durable against cracking if something is accidentally dropped on the tile. And FYI, The back butter buddy tool has made my job easier.
One technique I stumbled on for detecting the voids is to roll a steel ball, about half an inch diameter, across the tile. The sound changes abruptly, and it becomes obvious where the hollow spaces are. Too late, though, but interesting.
This type of tiling is only relative in high traffic areas. The non buttered way is suitable for domestic use. Did you prime the relative boards first?
The trowel was being held at a very flat angle not giving the application called for. On some larger tile that are domed in the center, then back buttering will flatten the bottom of the tile if you float across it, but otherwise, if you use the proper notch as you are supposed to, you’ll have full coverage. Think about it a bit. And if you back butter unevenly, you’ll have a hell of a time leveling the tiles.
Sure, this video has it's common sense flaws but the main point I saw was that you're not going to see these tiles lifting which I've been seeing a whole lot (in the house I just bought and with some work my mom had done) Back butter seems to eliminate that problem. Not applying BB seems like a smart move for professionals trying to complete multiple jobs fast because of time/budget constraints or DIY temporary fixes due to future renovations. Great video.
Two questions if ya don't mind. 1. I wonder what the results for coverage on ditra would be if you filled the waffles. Let them dry overnight then comb fresh thinset the next day and lay Tile? 2. What modified and unmodified thinset do you recommend for tile in bathroom floors and walls? Thanks in advance.
The video shows that the tiles removed from the Ditra actually brought the thin set out with them. There has always been discussion to fill or not to fill. As far as thin sets.... LATICRETE , ARDEX, MAPEI , MERKRETE and CBP all make good materials
In watching other Detra tutorials, applying tiles in a two step process. First a layer of unmodified thin set is applied to fill all the waffles, allowed to dry for 24 hours, then tile is laid. Perhaps if you had gone that route, it would have made a difference. Thanks for this demonstration. Very useful indeed.
Those tutorials are not done by Schluter. Schluter does not recommend applying the mortar in a two step process. They recommend doing it all in one shot.
@@luptonpittman6520was going to say the same thing. Most installers using membrane or kerdi board do a thin layer pressed hard into the substrate (similar to wetting concrete board), then the thicker notched layer right over that.
I back butter everything,I use all of my trowels accordingly and if the floor is jacked up as they usually are here in Michigan, I burn one in the dirt on the highest spot and build up around that,I just did a job for a guy that was 1500 Sq ft and used 92 50 lb bags of thinset,The homeowner had Ray Charles pour his concrete and self leveling would have costed thousands and floating was not and option due to many highs and lows and I didn't want thin mortar beds around the summits lol GREAT VIDEO,
There seems to be some confusion about ditra in the video and comments. The cured mortar should come up with the tile. That’s the point of ditra. It’s a decoupling membrane. The tile basically floats on top on the membrane. This means that when your substrate expands and contracts, the tile doesn’t feel the forces pulling in each direction which would cause it to crack or pop
Ok -- but does pulling up the tiles actually demonstrate anything? Yes, they are glued on more -- but does this scientically mean that the tiles are less likely to crack? The Ditre was easiest, it seems, to come up -- does that mean it's BS?
so what if i am doing rectangle tiles? which way to i make the grooves form the trowel to go? and how come the ground mortar had grooves but the back butters dont need grooves?
Good demonstration but for people trying to say it’s either a necessity or not it’s very simple. TCNA book states all that’s necessary is a at least 80% coverage and a floor that’s level. Something like not over 1/4” over 8’ if I remember correctly. All you need other than that is a good size trough and to make sure your ridges collapse without air pockets. On large format tiles though this can make a difference in not coming back to pop and relay hollow tiles. Very easy to get that coverage without hollow tiles without bb them
Obviously buttering the tile makes a stronger bond, but it is not necessary as an unbuttered tile would last as long as necessary , even outlive he whole house! One can make a stronger car and stronger foundations for any car, house, ship and plane, but it is just not necessary to over-engineer some issues in life,
dude you tile it once and tile it for the life of the home voids in thin set will only cause problems for you and the home owner any weight over a tile that doesn't have 100% coverage will break no matter how coverage is achieved 100% coverage is an important part of the process of quality
Carmel Pule' You are wrong. Please don't do any tiling unless it is for yourself, that way when your shit breaks, nobody will be mad except you. Fucking moron...
Carmel Pule' what is the life of a house? We just removed 120 year old tiles at a friends house in germany. Due to a intelligent layout, it was possible to replace all piping during that period at least once without removing the tiles. Sure you have to do a good job to make tiles last that long!
My opinion is that some of those should/could be categorized as adequate &/or overkill. I think BB depends on the usage of the piece to if it is warranted. Because it's not always needed. Just my opinion.
Which substrate would you recommend for a bathroom after testing? I'm looking at Ditra, Noble and Wedi for a small bathroom curbless shower remodel. Thanks for the video.
There’s another video out the that shows it’s important to wiggle the tile like he did at 1:51, if your not going to back butter. It was a very in-depth video showing the benefits. I may have missed it, but I don’t think he just drops the tile in place without moving it, which would get poor results.
Thanks Jim. I really did try to be unbiased in this video. The results are clear and simple - by back buttering tiles you are creating a more secure bond of the tile to the substrate. That is of course the goal. A little self-promotion, I use the tool I invented to accomplish this - The Back Butter Buddy! - A Google or you tube search will show the tool in action.
How can you prove this when you can't see the adhesion notches from your trowel to show your voids. You obviously still have voids it's just a lot harder to inspect. Other wise your BB tile would of not lifted in larger segments. Great adhesion when tiles are lifted are displayed by the shattering into small segments. IE if you are jack hammering you can distinguish the difference due to the effort to remove the tile.
I'm not saying back buttering is a bad idea, however this video is kind of misleading. 1st- on some of the non back buttered tiles (ex Hardie backer) you point to a void on the end of the tile where clearly the problem was just that the installer didn't apply enough thin set on the end of the board for the demonstration. I call that operator error. 2nd- more coverage with back buttering does make it more difficult to remove, but where is a proof that it is a bad thing? so what if its easier to pry up, that doesn't mean a tile will fail or crack.
dskater411 im so glad i am not the only one who noticed that!! He clearly is in favor of backbuttering, which is a good idea, but one can clearly see he did not motar properly on the non- buttered tile!!
I agree with you. What videos like this don't show is whether voids between the layers of mortar (ie. between that applied to the floor and that applied to the back of the tile) can be created, which would be just as detrimental as voids between a bare tile and the mortar on the floor). Perhaps ensuring a level BB layer is more important so as to not create more gaps that way. Of course, voids are bad either way...means the tile will break more easily if something is dropped, etc. in that spot. This is a really informative video with examples done with large glass tiles; neat to see! (1:45 on): ruclips.net/video/Way5bMh-eYg/видео.html&t=
Dskater411... although I do back butter my tile and addvocate it as a good method, I still don't think it is absolutely necessary to do, you won't be trying to pry off tile and none of those tile would fall off the wall, in other words there would not be a failure just because there wasn't 90% or 100% coverage of thin-set. The sky is falling mentality runs deep in this industry.
![Tile Notch Trowel sizes. Which trowel size do you need for ....? [Full vid]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FxkS87BGUfI/mqdefault.jpg)
![Tile Notch Trowel sizes. Which trowel size do you need for ....? [Full vid]](/img/tr.png)
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Let me just clarify, COVERAGE IS key to BOND. The more FULL coverage achieved with your thinset WILL enhance the BOND of the tile to substrate. BB'ing your tile will IMPROVE the BOND , BUT is NOT a replacement for COVERAGE....... That is as clear as I can get.
EdgeStripKits why did you skip the bb tile over the membrane? I'm going over concrete using mapeguard 2 as my underlayment.
I'm new at this and looking for any information. Here's my project.
I'm laying 490 sq ft of 18×18 at a 45. My base is concrete slab. I have ground down my high points and used self level on the valley's.
My floors were obviously made by the lowest bidder. Lol
So, I got them level. The tile I'm using is porcelain and with a half inch trowel to set them. Does this sound correct? Any information is appreciated it. 👍
I didn't skip BB'ing one tile for each substrate? Ditra had a non-modified thin set that was grey. Is that what you are thinking? I can't give you specific advice on your project without know ALL the factors.
EdgeStripKits Thanks for the reply. Your right you did BB all tiles. My bad. I'm having a some problems with my thin set. I bb the tile lay it, but if it doesn't fall exactly perfect. My thin set is like rubber. I push the tile into the correct spot but my thin set pulls it back. What is going on?
@@maces1405
The rubbery effect is probably due to suction underneath the tile. But keep in mind that I do not know much about tiling, that is why I am watching videos on RUclips.
Can you get a little clearer?
Interesting comments to your video. Love the one that says BB takes too long costing $$. Don't hire that guy. Floor tile should always be BB. Walls depends on size of tile. Also the quality of the thin set. The demo was great experiment. For non-believers of BB do this. Try both methods, Immediately after laying a tile try to lift it up. You will find the BB tile creates a "suction" type adhesion making it difficult to raise tile. I not only BB tile I use notch side. Creates a interlocking basket weave effect when both notched sides meet. My mentor has been tiling for 56 years. I've had to remove his work 30 yrs plus later and always proves to be extremely difficult. I've removed tile from cookie cutter homes and I could use a butter knife to remove tiles. There is a difference and why wouldn't you "overkill" to ensure a quality job. It comes down to the installer. Are you a mass production installer or a quality conscience installer? I always BB, takes 1% more time and never had a call back. Why fix it when it's not broke.
Back buttered tile will always "appear" to have no voids when the tile is removed. This is no substitute for a proper spread of thinset, but only an added assurance. There can still be a void between the back butter and the thinset if the thinset is not spread properly.
You shouldnt be back buttering every piece of tile . Your trowel is metal, it scratches the cement which helps the thinset stick to floor.
That is conclusive. Thanks for taking the time to do this test. I can't understand why people don't back butter. If their price is so tight they have to skimp they should try and sell quality.
Skill Builder the reason they dont do it is because they get paid shit (basically its cheap). so why install quality when your getting paid shit???
And that is the point where a good tradesman walks away. We are out own worst enemies in allowing customers to drive down quality.
So true. As a professional, I explain to the customer the correct way a job should be done and then give him/her my price. Often times, they cheapout. Too bad, at least I don't have the followup headaches. Not only do customers drive down quality by hiring hacks, these hacks give us pros a bad name.
I am having problems finding quality in my country, I'm willing to pay two or three times as much just get some quality. but then you see that people who charge twice as much still do a shit job :(.
Basically It's really hard to estimate a tradesman before hiring and price should never drive quality down imo.
JDoe
Not entitled to a good price.???? Sure we are....You as a client, arent entitled to a great job at a fair price fool.
Best video on floor tile installation ive seen. Covers all types of underlayment with a consistent technique that is per manufacturers guidelines with the exception of back buttering. It appears HardiBacker is the best underlayment but i put down Durock
Thanks
I am replacing 12" x 12" tiles that did not adhere well to concrete floor when originally installed, just a few here and there. This demo was very valuable to me, and I've seen many that werent. Thanks.
Every installer and homeowner should see this. Thank you for posting it. I paid extra for ditre and was wondering how it would fare.
Iv been tiling 11 years, I thought this was a great video thank you
You’re the GOAT for this video. Appreciate the time that went into this lesson!
I did a porcelain floor on plywood with BB in a very high traffic kitchen. Two tiles have cracked in ten years between the sink and stove standing area. One cracked when an entire pot of water fell on it. The other (tile next to first one that cracked) cracked under normal conditions a couple of months later. Everything else very solid, but I agree with this video that BB is important, but I also learned about the importance of good backer board. Thanks for making this video.
Excellent video, there are so many knuckleheads not BB, and never will, as seen by the comments below. But BB is certainly required on travertine, and large tiles and then tapping on the tile with a mallet.
A truly scientific approach to the problem! Thank you, sir, for showing it so clearly!
Yup. Got my answer. If you arent using tile mortar. You better BB because voids are near impossible to avoid. Broken and loose tile is what i got from using a all purpuse cement. Although the manufacterer claimed was ok for tile. It wasnt. I did BB the tiles i replaced and it held for all but one. Used tile mortar and BB that and it held.
I did this job on a near zero budget and the broken tile cost was greater than the savings in mortar. Inexpensive tile with proper mortar is not an issue. Not to BB is. Thanks Mr.Green.
Great experiment, clear results. Thanks for putting this demonstration together!
Nice video, Phil! You can see the difference between backbuttering and not in every example.
Twenty years ago I tiled about 1200 sq feet of my house. I did not back-butter anything. Not one tile ever came loose. Now I am re-tilling the same floor. I noticed great differences in difficulty removing the tile. Some places the thinset stayed on the tile and some places it stayed on the concrete floor. They were all set by me with the same method. The only thing I can guess for the differences is maybe the thinset was dryer is some areas. However I am confident they would all have lasted another 100 years without coming loose.
I have since learned about back-buttering and am doing it this time. The tiles seem to set easier as I have more material to work with but after watching this video and my experience, I don't think it matters that much for longevity.
Great vid. I back buttered a wall that used false interlocking stone and I got such a tight bond that it ripped the first layer of paper off the drywall when I needed to remove it when I noticed a chipped stone. I spent too much time on it though. Because I notched the back buttered side too... live and learn.
This is my sicology Since the first day I used to back butter my tiles no one told me to do that. I did it on my own wil so the tile can bond as hard as possible and today I am greatly confirmed that back buttering is essential. Forever people said you dont want back buttering and that was true but with back buttering the tile wont come off or crack Thanks alot for confirming me
For the highest bonding possible back butter always and I am proud that whatever tile I installed I back buttered it Thank You Alot Phil Green
Some of the voids on the non back buttered tiles where simply because there wasn't enough thin set on the substrate. (Since this was a demo you can see that most of the corners have this issue.)Back buttering is not necessary on smaller tiles if you apply enough thin set and set them correctly.
On larger tiles, back buttering is very important because sometimes the tiles are so big they tend to have a bend or curve on them. You can actually test this by placing the tile upside down and see if it spins.....because the center will be slightly bulged out. You need to back butter large tiles so that you fill that potential void the curving of the tile will make.
Maybe spreading the thinset evenly on the substrates would’ve given a better result. Watch the video closely when he spreads it with our back butter.
Great video! I just got done tiling a bathroom floor using the Ditre Schluder membrane & just after 24 hours of letting the thinset dry it already feels very strong. Great video of comparisons
Thanks for the video Phil Green-Edge Strip Kits .
Thank you for the video. I am about to tile my kitchen for the first time. From the many videos I watched so far I realized that total beginner like myself should better stick with maximum 12"x12" tiles and use anti lippage tiling systems. Back-buttering is going to be third tip for a total novice like me.
This is a fantastic video that provides a much-needed definitive answer to a difficult question for all new tile professionals and DIYers. Thank you!
This video accomplished one thing definitively. Nobody will be silly enough to put thinset on bare plywood. I think Phil sneezed with a prybar in hand and the tiles on the plywood got scared, ran away.
For Heavy duty commercial installations, yes it's a good idea or wall installations. But for residential installs it's an unnecessary overkill based on 45 years in the flooring industry. Plus tearing out a Back buttered floor tile over concrete is a nightmare, labor wise.
Cant agrr
@Der Traubengott I agree.
Yea try breaking out a single tile to replace it it’s a nightmare I wet the back of a tile with a sponge to clean it and it sticks better
The main reason that the back buttered tiles were a stronger bond was absorption. If you sprayed water on the back of the other tiles 10 minutes before laying, the bond would be just as strong. When you have a porous surface the bond is never as good as the surface sucks the moisture from the adhesive and weakens the bond. Its the same for painting walls and woodwork, or plastering in which you would PVA the walls first to minimise suction.
+niptodstan I beg to differ. The biggest reason for the voids is because nothing is ever 100% flat or straight. (Both the tile and substrate) The reason why back buttering helps is to fill those minor voids sometimes 1/16 or 1/8 or more thick. wetting tiles is not the way to go. So many reasons why it would be a bad idea to wet tiles prior to install. A few reasons: 1. Thinset would not be set as per the mftr. 2. sagging. Especially on walls. 3. Leaks if you wet it too much. and so on. Same theory applies to carpenters when they glue many joints or biscuits they don't just apply glue to one side. and God forbid they use water to help absorption :)
You are not begging to differ. You are arguing a completely different point than +niptodstan is making. You both have valid points, and both point to BB rather than not.
Muhsin Kermalli but the real question is, does one little void matter?
Actually niptodstan has a point. In gluing together joints that pull a lot of moisture in woodworking, ie miter joints, it is common to mix up a little glue and water and let it soak into the joint and dry, then apply glue and assemble the joint. This way the glue doesn't get all pulled into the end grain fibers of the joint. Maybe using water to set tile is not a great idea, but it can help with wood. Also, efficient woodworkers apply glue to one side of the joint, like an edge joint. If theres squeeze out, its surely coating the whole joint.
Finally someone that got it right. This of course goes only for Ceramic tiles. Porcelain Granite marble and similar non porous materials just need to be wiped with dam cloth to remove dust. As with any glue clean surface make for perfect bond.
depend on lots of circumstances but is a must do if the weather is hot or if you are using cheap thin set
Of course the backbuttered tiles didn't show any voids because they had been coated with thinset. It doesn't mean it didn't have voids, they just couldn't be seen as easily.
Yep I thought that!
I did a test like this and tiles without the back butter almost always fail.
Almost always
@@RubbinRobbin My theory is that even though the back butter does not increase coverage, and there may be small voids that same as a dry tile, the fact that the thinset is keyed and bonded to the tile, and then that thinset is bonded to the mud on the floor, it increases the transfer and bond strength. If you ever tore up a crappy tile job you can see that sometimes the ridges never really "stuck" to the tile, when you pull the tile up there is no mud on the back, its all stuck to the floor. Backbuttering makes sure the thinset sticks and is fully keyed into the tile. If that makes sense.
For crying out loud. Don't let the mud tack over. Be aware of air and temperature conditions and forget the back butter on any tile less than 14x 14. I will say that if you are a DIY then it's fine to do it as you may not know product limitations and proper trowel techniques and sizes but make sure to keep a sponge handy cuz you about to get messy. Lol P.S. stop pointing out voids due to no mud being underneath tile in the first place.
Trowel size plays a major part in wat kind of coverage you get along with back buttering
Another thing you can see on your back buttered tiles the notching for the trowel adhesive is not visible but you are saying there's better adhesion ?. If it had better adhesion your tile would shatter into smaller segments not allowing an inspection on the back of the tile am i correct ?.
I usually thickly back butter the tile and press them on without applying mastic to the substrate for wall jobs. If I need to cut the job short, it's easier to clean and start again later. Thoughts?
Why don't you run a wet sponge over the tile before you back butter? I find a even better bond to the tile when it's moist. Thoughts?
Brilliant experiment. Could you please show one where you go over existing ceramic tiles, I would love to see what happens as I am doing a tile over tile installation. Thank You.
If you're getting voids, sans BB, doesn't that just mean you didn't apply enough thinset to the substrate, or provide enough pressure when setting the tile?
Do you have to put ridges on the tile as well and if so, what direction?
There will be voids because you didn’t batter the tile first same as contact additives?
Thank you for the confirmation about back buttering tile. I’ve always back buttered the tiles but always wondered if it was necessary, being a novice tile setter. Now I’ve discovered that I’ve been doing the process wrong. I’ve been using the notched side of the trowel and creating another set of mortar grooves on the tile. Tho this might produce a much tighter bond, I’m sure it was totally unnecessary considering I’ve been using small tiles.
Great vid. Just for clarity. Is it worth buttering the back of the tiles applied to detra Mat, as your video showed them both coming off in a similar fashion
Have you tested back buttered and just dropped into place vs BB and pushed forward and back?
So back buttering makes it harder to remove , unless your banging on your tile back buttering is not necessary
I'm not a pro but have done a fair amount of large format tile DIY with success. I use the T-Lock leveling system and then walk on the freshly installed tiles. This ensures 100% coverage and saved loads of time and mess. You can see for yourself by putting a sheet of plexiglass (not buttered) on a section of floor combed with thinset. Walk on it, and you'll see the air bubbles collapse, achieving 100% coverage. For vertically placed tiles I can't provide that level of evenly distributed pressure. So I back butter and then tap with a rubber hammer.
I am a pretty good handyman but, as I don't tile but once in awhile, I make it a practice to back butter. Just one more thing that could help compensate for my lack of experience.
Same. Tiled a bathroom yesterday. Backbuttered and checked. Had 100% coverage
Yes Mr Green, Since the tiles are not perfectly flat, isn't it possible that a skim coat is not enough to prevent voids, and that the skim coat may only make it appear that the thin-set touched the tile and a void may still be there? I sometimes use a different size notch trowel on the tile. It would be good to see a video on problems when doing a patch job as when some tiles pop up or the bonding fails and the client wants to replace only the spot that pops up. Because it can be difficult to level new tiles to old ties.
Is it important to wet or damp the tile before laying?
You don't want to add water to the back of most tile.... It is a bond breaker. SOME, ceramic can be soaked. IF YOU ADD WATER to the back of the tiles and it ABSORBS into it, Then Yes, you can moisten it so the tile does NOT pull the water out of your thinset to early before it is cured,
This is a great video
I always back butter tile when installing on floor or walls
It's the way to go
Ye man i did the same way too, and I never have a problem
Sir, what will be the thickness of the mixture of paste of cement of adhesive
I get that tiles should be laid properly especially for floor tiles but on wall tiles I often wonder if they’re laid too well. They tend to get replaced every 15-20 years so as long as they hold but then come off with relative ease I’d say that’s the best amount of adhesion. What that is I don’t know though.
The coverage was surprisingly more than I’ve seen demoing most non back skimmed tile.
I'm doing a remodel...could you give me the color, name and manufacturer of the tile in this video?
I've been trying to match. Thanks
Great and professional video. Really helpful. I'm about to start a large tiling volunteering project with no tiling experience and your video is much needed. Thanks.
What is the bucket lid spinner thingy? Just a Gamma lid, or a lazy susan turntable?
Even if there is more coverage on bb than not, isn’t there still more than sufficient thinset on non bb tiles ? I’m not convinced that the non bb tiles wouldn’t have held up just fine
Apparently, everyone has there own system for laying tile...If you live in Las Vegas, NV, Can you lay tile and grout properly? Starting with FLATTENING of the FLOOR...
I do all my own tiling and always back butter. Many contractors won't bother and for the most part the tiles will probably last a good while anyway. But in areas of high traffic they will mess up sooner.
The time you're pleased a contractor skimped is when you're removing tiles.
I'm glad I watched this video. Great demonstration.
Was the ply primed with sbr or just bare
I had to remove tiles that I put in our bathroom 20 years ago. I did not use back-butter (did not know about it) and all the tiles came out in pieces and it took me hours to remove all of them. I guess, I will skip back-buttering in the future too.
It makes sense that a BB tile will have a stronger adhesion to the surface. However, is that really required? An analogy would be to glue and screw drywall to the stud or just screw it to the stud. Both will work, barring any significant house settling. So, are tiles going to perform to the requirements of the traffic, whether they are BB or not? If the adhesion force of a non BB'd tile is X and the performance requirement is X/2, then what is the point of BB'ing?
Do you have to remove small pieces of adhesive left behind on concrete after removing linoleum floor before putting on thinset? Will it not stick if you don't?
whats the orange material name??
Phil, great video. One quick question. From your results would you take away that on a ditra install back buttering is not necessary like it is with the other installs. And that tile --> plywood is a no go ever!
Thanks!
ironlungs33 great question.
I tiled my bathroom and my kitchen, the bathroom tiles I back buttered as they were reasonably big tiles in my kitchen the tiles were quite small so I didn't back butter them, neither show any signs of moving and that's ten years on. This is a bit like gluing a pocket hole joint, do you need to do it ? No , Will gluing make the joint stronger ? Yes
I am a floor installer and I see lots of different opinions in the comments. Based on my experience back buttering helps give you a stronger bond, helps reduce the possibility of hollow spots in the tile, and makes the tile more durable against cracking if something is accidentally dropped on the tile.
And FYI, The back butter buddy tool has made my job easier.
Why iying? Some of tehe voids were due to not applying thinset to the whole substrat firts.
here in Panama we have a problem that mortar beds and wall renders are not always properly levelled so backbuttering helps with that
You did not mention what size of trowel you used. I would like to know if the size of the trowel would make difference.
Huyen Le Yes, the correct size trowel matters. I’m saying back buttering is in ADDITION to this
One technique I stumbled on for detecting the voids is to roll a steel ball, about half an inch diameter, across the tile. The sound changes abruptly, and it becomes obvious where the hollow spaces are. Too late, though, but interesting.
Awesome video. Made it very clear and demonstrated what I wondered about. Thank you again. Very helpful.
This type of tiling is only relative in high traffic areas. The non buttered way is suitable for domestic use. Did you prime the relative boards first?
"Domestic use" What the hell does that even mean? Just shut up...
What is your opinion on notching the back of the tile as well?
This also helps prevent tiles from coming loose years later of being walked on or having stuff moved across it. :)
The trowel was being held at a very flat angle not giving the application called for. On some larger tile that are domed in the center, then back buttering will flatten the bottom of the tile if you float across it, but otherwise, if you use the proper notch as you are supposed to, you’ll have full coverage. Think about it a bit. And if you back butter unevenly, you’ll have a hell of a time leveling the tiles.
Sure, this video has it's common sense flaws but the main point I saw was that you're not going to see these tiles lifting which I've been seeing a whole lot (in the house I just bought and with some work my mom had done) Back butter seems to eliminate that problem. Not applying BB seems like a smart move for professionals trying to complete multiple jobs fast because of time/budget constraints or DIY temporary fixes due to future renovations. Great video.
Two questions if ya don't mind. 1. I wonder what the results for coverage on ditra would be if you filled the waffles. Let them dry overnight then comb fresh thinset the next day and lay Tile?
2. What modified and unmodified thinset do you recommend for tile in bathroom floors and walls? Thanks in advance.
The video shows that the tiles removed from the Ditra actually brought the thin set out with them. There has always been discussion to fill or not to fill. As far as thin sets.... LATICRETE , ARDEX, MAPEI , MERKRETE and CBP all make good materials
EdgeStripKits Ok, thanks for your reply. I'll check lowes and home depot for the thinset you mentioned. Have a great week.
You should use modified thinset with plywood...
Thanks for the test, really instructive!
forest gump not thrue men tile stick well on plywood
In watching other Detra tutorials, applying tiles in a two step process. First a layer of unmodified thin set is applied to fill all the waffles, allowed to dry for 24 hours, then tile is laid. Perhaps if you had gone that route, it would have made a difference. Thanks for this demonstration. Very useful indeed.
Those tutorials are not done by Schluter. Schluter does not recommend applying the mortar in a two step process. They recommend doing it all in one shot.
@@luptonpittman6520was going to say the same thing. Most installers using membrane or kerdi board do a thin layer pressed hard into the substrate (similar to wetting concrete board), then the thicker notched layer right over that.
I back butter everything,I use all of my trowels accordingly and if the floor is jacked up as they usually are here in Michigan, I burn one in the dirt on the highest spot and build up around that,I just did a job for a guy that was 1500 Sq ft and used 92 50 lb bags of thinset,The homeowner had Ray Charles pour his concrete and self leveling would have costed thousands and floating was not and option due to many highs and lows and I didn't want thin mortar beds around the summits lol GREAT VIDEO,
Great vid! I guess this simply ends the discussion showing that back-buttering should always be used.
There seems to be some confusion about ditra in the video and comments. The cured mortar should come up with the tile. That’s the point of ditra. It’s a decoupling membrane. The tile basically floats on top on the membrane. This means that when your substrate expands and contracts, the tile doesn’t feel the forces pulling in each direction which would cause it to crack or pop
Why BB with a flat side of trovel?
Ok -- but does pulling up the tiles actually demonstrate anything? Yes, they are glued on more -- but does this scientically mean that the tiles are less likely to crack? The Ditre was easiest, it seems, to come up -- does that mean it's BS?
I think it's more important to back butter large format tiles if they are going on the wall.
IMO yes, Ditra is BS
so what if i am doing rectangle tiles? which way to i make the grooves form the trowel to go? and how come the ground mortar had grooves but the back butters dont need grooves?
Michael Quintana
Run the notches the short way of the tile so the air has the best chance to escape.
What kind of modified thinset did you use?
Thank You! That is a great tip that all installers should apply : )
Good demonstration but for people trying to say it’s either a necessity or not it’s very simple. TCNA book states all that’s necessary is a at least 80% coverage and a floor that’s level. Something like not over 1/4” over 8’ if I remember correctly. All you need other than that is a good size trough and to make sure your ridges collapse without air pockets. On large format tiles though this can make a difference in not coming back to pop and relay hollow tiles. Very easy to get that coverage without hollow tiles without bb them
What is the device you use as a lid on your bucket to spin the tiles while back buttering
www.backbutterbuddy.com
Obviously buttering the tile makes a stronger bond, but it is not necessary as an unbuttered tile would last as long as necessary , even outlive he whole house! One can make a stronger car and stronger foundations for any car, house, ship and plane, but it is just not necessary to over-engineer some issues in life,
dude you tile it once and tile it for the life of the home voids in thin set will only cause problems for you and the home owner any weight over a tile that doesn't have 100% coverage will break no matter how coverage is achieved 100% coverage is an important part of the process of quality
so -- what's up with the Ditre then?
Charles Carpenter voids dont cause problems you know that rite. And do you have any experience in that field because I'm pretty sure that you don't.
Carmel Pule' You are wrong. Please don't do any tiling unless it is for yourself, that way when your shit breaks, nobody will be mad except you. Fucking moron...
Carmel Pule' what is the life of a house? We just removed 120 year old tiles at a friends house in germany. Due to a intelligent layout, it was possible to replace all piping during that period at least once without removing the tiles. Sure you have to do a good job to make tiles last that long!
My opinion is that some of those should/could be categorized as adequate &/or overkill. I think BB depends on the usage of the piece to if it is warranted. Because it's not always needed. Just my opinion.
Agree, test is irrelevant to typical floor.
Which substrate would you recommend for a bathroom after testing? I'm looking at Ditra, Noble and Wedi for a small bathroom curbless shower remodel. Thanks for the video.
Love this kind of stuff. Great job testing difference serfaces.
what brand of white glue ? thnks
There’s another video out the that shows it’s important to wiggle the tile like he did at 1:51, if your not going to back butter. It was a very in-depth video showing the benefits. I may have missed it, but I don’t think he just drops the tile in place without moving it, which would get poor results.
Thanks Jim. I really did try to be unbiased in this video. The results are clear
and simple - by back buttering tiles you are creating a more secure bond of the tile to the substrate. That is of course the goal. A little self-promotion, I use the tool I invented to accomplish this - The Back Butter Buddy! - A Google or you tube search will show the tool in action.
How can you prove this when you can't see the adhesion notches from your trowel to show your voids. You obviously still have voids it's just a lot harder to inspect. Other wise your BB tile would of not lifted in larger segments. Great adhesion when tiles are lifted are displayed by the shattering into small segments. IE if you are jack hammering you can distinguish the difference due to the effort to remove the tile.
I always back butter for walls and floor, doesn't take any time to do it, good video! 👍
why don't you let your adhesive to flash off for 5 mins before applying the tiles ?
A great way to charge more for a Tile repiar.
I’d like to see the test against tiles that are wetted
Where did you get that spinning bucket top?
The tool is called "the Back Butter Buddy" Google search will show you places to pick one up
Aren't those bare spots a result of you just pulling off the tile and the thin set sticking to the subfloor?
That is the definition of "thin set NOT bonding to the tile"
I'm not saying back buttering is a bad idea, however this video is kind of misleading.
1st- on some of the non back buttered tiles (ex Hardie backer) you point to a void on the end of the tile where clearly the problem was just that the installer didn't apply enough thin set on the end of the board for the demonstration. I call that operator error.
2nd- more coverage with back buttering does make it more difficult to remove, but where is a proof that it is a bad thing? so what if its easier to pry up, that doesn't mean a tile will fail or crack.
dskater411 im so glad i am not the only one who noticed that!! He clearly is in favor of backbuttering, which is a good idea, but one can clearly see he did not motar properly on the non- buttered tile!!
I agree with you. What videos like this don't show is whether voids between the layers of mortar (ie. between that applied to the floor and that applied to the back of the tile) can be created, which would be just as detrimental as voids between a bare tile and the mortar on the floor). Perhaps ensuring a level BB layer is more important so as to not create more gaps that way. Of course, voids are bad either way...means the tile will break more easily if something is dropped, etc. in that spot.
This is a really informative video with examples done with large glass tiles; neat to see! (1:45 on): ruclips.net/video/Way5bMh-eYg/видео.html&t=
Some of the voids he speaks of the thinset is still on the surface. Is it an actual void?
dskater411
O
Dskater411... although I do back butter my tile and addvocate it as a good method, I still don't think it is absolutely necessary to do, you won't be trying to pry off tile and none of those tile would fall off the wall, in other words there would not be a failure just because there wasn't 90% or 100% coverage of thin-set. The sky is falling mentality runs deep in this industry.