I saw someone say that they were confused because ***** said that multiple forms (Forms IV, V, and VII to be specific) were the "most demanding of all the forms. I'd like to take a minute to clarify. Form IV (Ataru) is the most demanding in an athletic and mobility sense, Form V (Shien/ Djem So) is the most demanding in terms of strength, Form VII (Juyo/ Vaapad) is the most demanding overall, it combines the high speed acrobatics of Ataru and the high strength power blows of Djem So, combined with the high stress mental and emotional aspect.
Juyo is completely broken in The Sith Lords. As a Guardian turned Weapon Master, with the sixth tier of Two-Weapon Fighting, and two lightsabers, a Force Jump attack will literally one-shot almost every late game mook, and even simple attacks will do insane amounts of damage if you have Force Speed active. On my last character, I FLATTENED Darth Sion in a straight-up lightsaber duel, and killed Kreia in record time.
If I was a jedi, I would focus on Soresu with Vaapad mixed in. This gives you the indomitable defense with the ability to use the energy of your opponent against him. This would also add some attack maneuvers to your strict defensive style.
***** I have been checking out Terra Prime Lightsaber Academy's videos, and am frankly upset by the outlandish conclusion of every single Lightsaber form being based on Chinese Bagua swordplay. As a trained martial artist ( I trained in both Kyokushin Karate and Kenjutsu in Yokohama Japan), I will lay out where the actualreal world counterparts of the forms came from, if you take the time to read: FORM 1= Simplified Kendo, which is not really a combat form, but a speed based form loosely based on actual Japanese swordplay. FORM 2= A unique meld of both Spanish (slashing is prevalent) and French fencing (footwork and basic posture), with very little other priciples applied. Form 3= I see Japanese kenjutsu-based blocks and angles, with Chinese Dao posture, blade flourishes, and initial stances. Very interesting. FORM 4= Seeing how the body turns with each strike, the body is the main axis of movement, rather than the wrists. The body rotations are based on chinese footwork (possibly Bagua or a staff style), yet the stance, swings, and posture are Japanese ( minus the full rotations). I imagine that many personal systems of early Shinobi/ assassins would resemble the acrobatics of this style. Form 5= absolute and pure battlefield kenjutsu, with excessive flourishes, but otherwise identical to what a practitioner of contemporary Kenjutsu would use. The massive build up of kinetic energy with each swing, lack of mobility, and reliance on strength are hallmarks of it's real-world counterpart. FORM 6= hasn't been explored canonically, yet seems to resemble both schools of Daisho-weilding kenjutsu, and dual chinese swordstyles, although adapted for single bladed use. The result would be a balaned, and rather confusing challenge to fight. FORM 7= canonically, this form is also kenjutsu, although with aggressive reverse strikes immediately following the conventional strikes (watch mace's blade when palpatine was "jumping around". Notice how his attacks where chained) Maul and Sidious's Juyo seemed to be more aggressive, lacking the complex intentional timing of Windu. Windu also angles the blade deceptively, with unorthodox yet effective angles of blocking and attack, whereas Sidious' s style seems similiar to the Shinsengumi's swordplay of old. (Aggressive stabbing, with deceptive and vicious follow up.) Form 7 as a whole hold a rather deceptive and forceful physical element as well.
This guy is just a star wars nerd and it is obvious he has no martial arts training, thus not having the mind of one. I stated something like you're observation in one of his other videos. I'm a 2nd dan black belt in Shotokan, and I understand exactly where you are coming from. I feel these forms could really use the mind of an experienced martial artist, because I dont care how much you know about star wars, real world study of REAL martial arts is the only way to acquire this wisdom.
Indeed I found comment very compelling as I to am a martial artist specifically mizhong louhan and chen hunyuan taijiquan and the only part I would disagree on juyo specifically Darth Maul. His when you look at his use of spinning sidekicks and butterfly kicks and twists and the use of the saber staff is very northern shaolinesque. Everything else fairly accurate.
Guys this is STAR WARS, not real life. Get over yourselves. No-one really cares how fictional fighting styles compare with real-world fighting styles. Its not about being realistic. Its about being creative. Lighten up. Lol...
"Hans Zimmer truly is a genius." Sold. Great final video on Juyo. Loved your in depth look at the battle between Windu and Palpatine. Wow, I can't imagine the effect this would have on a person if they weren't as badass as Mace Windu. It is truly an advanced technique only to be mastered by a select few Jedi and/or Sith.
remember too, windu could see shatterpoints. Palpatine was smart, but Windu could find his weakness, in the novel, thats why they end up on the ledge. Also, the only reason Windu lost was b/c he failed to see Anakin's shatterpoint, which was palpatine. I dont think he threw the fight until the end. I think he sensed anakin coming when windu couldn't and recognized an opportunity. but Mace would have won eventually since he figured out how to weaken palpatine.
I’m not experienced in the lore or books, and feel free to give feedback. But, based on the descriptions I’ve seen of the forms’ strengths and weaknesses as well as my personal traits, my preferred styles to learn after Shii-Cho would probably be these: III: Soresu- Considering my minimal stamina, my first instinct to survive a fight is often “Best defense is a good, quick offense”, perhaps suggesting Ataru or Juyo. However, when facing foes that may be able to counter or endure immediate offense, which would drain me faster, I believe conserving my energy to defend against and outlast my opponents is the smarter strategy. It would also offer openings to study their technique and aid in holding my own against ranged weapons rather than focusing on close quarters combat. This alludes to the metaphor of the tortoise and the hare, that sometimes “slow and steady wins the race”. VI: Niman- This relates deeply to me, both in my limited physicality and creativity, to adapt to unfamiliar situations and circumstances. This mindset lends itself well to both the dual wielding of Jar'Kai and the double bladed saber forms, which revolve around keeping opponents on their toes. Additionally, utilizing force based techniques would help me well offensively and in keeping a distance from my opponents, giving me short moments to catch my breath and anticipate the next move. Put simply, this is the best style to compliment my flexible personality, unpredictability, improvisation and philosophy in moderation. From this specific cocktail, it seems my main weaknesses would be against: A) The strength of Shien/Djem So, meaning I wouldn’t go head to head with more physically specialized enemies. Users of Makashi and Ataru, I could likely manage so long as I keep pace against their speed and agility. Defense is key here. B) The lightning quick and fluid blend of strength and speed in VII, specifically Vaapad. Countering would be absolutely crucial to survive, given that force powers alone would not be enough to maintain a ranged battle except through effective timing. This would undoubtedly be my worst case scenario duel, heavily exhausting and likely coming down to my improvising ability.
+Keith Harris Thats interesting. I specialize in Form III and V. I generally only want to survive to talk people down, but when that isn't an option I just try to batter people into oblivion. Is it boring, absolutely, but dang it if it isn't effective.
teleportaat I've seen videos of an academy in England (I think) that teaches people how to fight in lightsaber styles with light-up swords. They start with Shii-Cho and move up from there, pretty much just like the council in the movies, the dedication to detail is incredible. They teach it mainly as choreography, I believe, no "force" routines are involved. It's really expensive to get in though, not worth it unless you plan to commit all the way to graduation.
+Keith Harris I don't think Shii-Cho, Soresu and Niman would be an effective combination if you lack stamina. For example, Obi-Wan is a master of Soresu and outlasts adversaries but he is also one of the most fit and toughest Jedi ever. Shii-Cho is an excellent foundation and I think every lightsaber duelist should know it to adept level before branching off, and Niman sounds like it's a perfect fit for you on a number of levels... however both of these are relatively light in terms of offense, Shii-Cho being very basic in ability and Niman notably light in everything just with the benefit of incorporating Force abilities fluidly. It's difficult to advise you more without knowing more of your abilities than "low stamina", but at present I would say that Form I and VI are sufficient to help you be effective in multiple scenarios since it sounds like your main interest isn't particularly in direct combat, and just accepting that you're not a blademaster. Which isn't really a big deal, in my opinion, since you sound more cerebrally inclined; no shame in being Yoda instead of Mace Windu. That said, I think that your idea about overwhelming force is a good tactic: much like Yoda (who lacks stamina) you'd be best served with incorporating Ataru to try and end fights quickly.
I have to agree with you about Palpatine deliberately losing to Mace, Jensaarai. And I'm also convinced he added one more piece of manipulation into the fight at the end: If you play it frame-by-frame in slow motion when Anakin swings his Lightsaber to intervene, you'll notice that Palpatine has his hands raised slightly, and then at the point of impact, Palpatine's hands jerk slightly. What that tells me is that Anakin was trying to either block Mace's Lightsaber, or knock it out of his hand, but Palpatine used the Force to re-direct Anakin's aim just enough so that Mace's hand would be sliced off instead.
I enjoyed the breakdown of these styles, however I disagree with Palpatine throwing the fight. I think the Star wars continuity supports that Mace Windu had the edge until Anakin Skywalker got involved..
I have developed a theory on Form VII. At first the style favored by the ancient sith on korriban. As shown in the artwork of Tale's of the Jedi- The Fall of the Sith Empire Part 3, during the fight between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kresh they were both using a highly aggresive fighting style. However seeing as how swordplay wasn't the main focus of the Sith during that time, then the style was evidenly underdeveloped if not only recently developed at the time. Then came Form VI (Niman). Much like how Form V (Shien/ Djem so) was developed from Form III (Soresu), I believe that Joyo was developed in small part from Niman. Niman was a style that took bits and pieces from the previous 5 styles resulting in a balanced fighting form relying on moderation. Somebody must have introduced their knowledge of classical Juyo used by the anchient Sith into Niman resulting in the Juyo we know and love today. So all in all, Juyo is basically Niman with a homicidal lunatic mentality. Again this is just a theory. If anybody want's to chime in, please do.
"Limitless pool of power that is the dark side..." Not sure if I agree with this. The dark side is a quick, easy path to power, but even a Sith on the level of Palpatine, Bane or even Revan pales in comparison to a true master of the light side. Unfortunately, few such matters have ever existed. Anakin had a fair point when saying that the Jedi fear power. Pure love is the greatest power in existence, and the highest one could ever climb on the ladder of the Force.
Jensaarai.......i love u man....you agree with me when saying Palpatine threw the fight with Windu. The stupid fans who say he won out of pure power and skill, really REALLY annoys me. You described it perfectly, and i commend you with utmost respect.
Juyo would be my chosen style. It fits me, as both an Athlete and a Martial Artist. I love to fight, and I love the physically demanding part. I would Master only Juyo first, then make my own personal style from there. All of the other 5 forms would be mixed in with it (once I mastered them, of course.) I would use Vapaad against Jedi and other Sith.
What martial art do you do though? For me, as a Kali/Fencer, I would rather go for Makashi (Form 2). But the good thing about Form 2 is you can branch out and use ingenuity, allowing for variations.
Ah, I do Wing Chun as well, and it explains why you would want to do the quickest of the styles, as that what Wing Chun is about. And I guess boxing is a bit like Form 1. I started with Muay Thai and in fights I usually regress back to that, as it's a bit like boxing.
I a agree. I believe that a fight should end as quickly as possible, if you know what you are doing like Juyo. I mean, you need defense and counter striking of course. But I like to press the attack and counter. This also resembles Djem So.
I agree on that principle, end a fight before it's begun, but being flashy like form 2 would be fun. When sword fighting I usually attack and counter at the same time, I don't know which style that would be.
Political prowess does not necessarily equate to battle-sense. If a song of ice and fire has taught me anything it is that there are multiple intelligences, skill in the field of battle does not mean you have skill at playing the game. Of course I'm willing to believe your theory if I was aware of Palpatine being a combative genius. Somebody who regards his skills with a blade as nothing more than a way to embarrass the Jedi doesn't strike me as the combative type.
spikegilfer1997 He definitely wasn't the combative type. He was a master in the force, but not really all that great with a saber. He was so powerful in the force that he was able to hide his massive amount of power from the jedi and manipulate the entire galaxy to side with him over the Jedi. However he knew that Anakin was already much more powerful than he was and he knew by using padme against anakin he could manipulate the battle between him and Mace to appear as if the jedi were attempting to take control. He let everything happen to him because he knew if he played weak people would jump to defend him. He was probably the best manipulator in the history of the sith, but he was also a selfish fool who refused to follow Darth Banes sith order and instead hid his teachings from vader, thus decimating the sith order and it's teachings. Too bad Anakin was not Banes apprentice, they would have probably destroyed any trace of the jedi and would have instilled permanent sith order into the universe.
I really enjoy your videos and find them very interesting. One small gripe, (I don't know if it's just me but) the music volume at most times drowns out your voice forcing me to strain to hear what you're actually saying. Other then that keep up the awesome content.
I think Sidious and Windu both willingly put themselves in that position on the window knowing that their opponent wanted this because they both trusted Anakin and they both expected him to take their side. Thus it was both of their goals to take the position which their duel ended in, Sidious intended to deceive Anakin into killing Windu, and Windu believed that Anakin would help him or allow him to kill Sidious.
Adam Sloss Is a Boss Except any jedi/sith would have been able to sense Anakins massive presence in the force. Mace purely just predicted the outcome the wrong way. He didn't forsee palpatine hiding his true power until it was too late. Mace told him to stay back because he could sense that anakin didn't know what to do. my personal opinion is that Palpatine used his massive force presence to ironically cover up how truly powerful he was so that anakin would help him. Mace was no match for anakin at that point. Anakin was too strong for any jedi to control.
+NerdRagerGaming no just no that is the weakest anakin ever he was way to emotional and at he's peak in the movies today and windu would destroy him windu cause vapaad and yoda cause he is the strongest Jedi with the force of he's era
+Fire Fist Ace What are you talking about? Anakin was at his absolute PEAK when his emotions were flowing during the fight between windu and sidious, this is canon and not up for debate. This is why Anakin was able to even beat windu so quickly and Palpatine who later would become the incarnation of the dark side was afraid of him. The only people that rivaled Anakin were Mace, Obi, Yoda and Sidious who were each considered the literal incarnations of their combat styles, yoda even being the incarnation of the light side. It was only after Anakin became the mechanical Darth Vader that he was weak enough to be beaten by the old jedi. By that time in the movies every one of the old Jedi Masters were dead.
One of the better SW-oriented channels I've seen so far! Anyway, is it ok if I debate with you on a certain point? Shouldn't the forms' pronunciations be more orientally/exotically said rather than American? Since Lucas cited Kurosawa as an influence, I'd assume he'd inject the Japanese or oriental theme into his world for the succeeding generations to follow. For instance, Makashi, Soresu, and Ataru have a Nihongo intonation and structure and is best heard with the middle syllable emphasized.
I just watched the scene again and I was remembering it wrong. It starts with the Jedi arriving to arrest Palaptine who are then interrupted by Anakin. For some reason I remembered it as the other way around - Sidious revealing himself to Anakin and then both being interrupted by the Jedi 'lynch mob'. I haven't read any of the books so I bow to your greater knowledge :)
So Palpatine has allowed Mace to gain tactical advantage while changing the strategic environment. He lost the battle to win the war and gain Anakin's full assistance in this battle and the war. Well played =)
And that makes sense, because Vaapad is a form that is, essentially, the lightside harnassing and controlling the darkside, and using both towards a means. That is, in this form you are powerful because you are using both sides of the force towards a common goal. Thus, because Mace showed mastery of light over dark, and the ability to direct both, it makes sense that he would beat Palpatine. Even the most powerful tactical mastermind can't account for EVERYTHING. He cut it very very close.
Wow...the way you put it, it makes it sound like Windu should have been the Grand Master on the council. Seriously, your phrasing is so perfect you're basically saying without the advantage of Vaapad, Yoda (or other Jedi for that matter) never stood a chance.
Me too. You have the best defense and offense. You are a master at blocking blaster fire and lightsabers, and you can destroy single or multiple enemies in a few strikes. That combo is very OP, but it is also very hard to learn, so that's the only trade off.
alright this got me curious about those lightsaber forms... may I ask, where do these styles originate? books or movies ?? are they really practical, is any of you who talk about it able to use acatually them in sparring? or do you just enjoy the theory... and making choreographies with it (if so, it's not practical). x)
The thing about the duel between Palpatine and Mace Windu is true. If they were to battle on neutral ground, they would be equal. But, the same goes for Soresu. Soresu, by definition, is a form of complete defense. If Obi-wan were to fight Mace Windu, or Palpatine, they would be able to go on forever, or at least until the weaker opponnent gives out.
except 1: Form 7 is said to be able to penetrate Soresu's defenses, 2:Obi-wan doesn't have a limitless pool of Force Energy, and 3: Both of them have the ability to blitz Obi-wan
Ok im getting a bit confused which form is the most physically demanding. Before you said it was form 5 and now its form 7? Mind clearing it up for me?
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mace_Windu starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad a thousand years ago the form was band from the jedi because to many jedi fell to the dark side and joined the sith in the new sith wars which lasted 1000 years. Mace Windu was so far as i know the only jedi to even master this form entirely but Mace said that Sora did not master Vaapad, Vaapad mastered him only a few people used it including Darth Bane Sidious went as far to call form 7 "sith style" "Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen." ―Yoda
I have my own version of the prequel where Palpatine demonstrates his force mastery by taking out the two Jedi deputies not by direct combat, but rather telekinetically turning their own weapons against them with only Windu being able to ward himself against such an attack. This would have the affect of reducing the field but also creating an impetus for strong action on Windu's part, the emotion of the two masters being picked up by Anakin and motivating him to get to the scene fast.
I agree with your analysis of the Sidious-Windu fight although I was surprised you kept referring to him as Palpatine as by that point his cover was clearly blown :) My interpretation was that he saw his arrest as an opportunity to complete Anakin's seduction by the dark side. He would've thrown the fight even if he was able to win because he wanted to appear vulnerable to Anakin to show that he was not threat that the Jedi council claimed he was while also forcing Anakin to come to his aid.
Heh, those are the same ones I would have gone with. Did Darth Maul use Niman or Juyo more, do you know? One (or both) of those were his specialty, right?
I would study Niman and then concentrate on this style since I find myself not only attracted to it but frankly finding comfort since my personality fits unleashing pure silent rage upon my opponent.
i completely agree! it revolves around combating lightsabers and people with laser blasters. things that don't exist today and most likely won't exist ever. and as a karate practitioner i agree that fights don't look cool, are messy, and end fast haha.
If you've read the ROTS novel, Palpatine purposely let Windu take control, as he sensed Anakin during the fight. Windu used his shatterpoint ability to sense that Palpatine's shatterpoint was Anakin himself. So, essentially, Sidious let himself "lose his guard" so as to manipulate Anakin further.
I also agree that Sidious lost on purpose. But what about Windu's ability to see shatterpoints? Would it really be an evenly matched battle taking that into consideration? Also, I am really enjoying your nerdy videos. You have a new subscriber.
I don't know... I think Windu did outmaneuver Palpatine with the window maneuver. However, Palpatine reminded Anakin telepathically that the only way to save Padme was through him. This was a great maneuver on Palpatine's part that insured victory before the fight ever began. It didn't matter if it was one or all of the Jedi that came for him that had the upper hand. All that mattered was forcing Anakin to make the final choice to risk losing the woman he loved or turning to the Dark Side.
awesome series, I should have discovered it earlier :) About Mace Windu and Palpatine, I have to say I disagree with you saying they're equals in their fight in Coruscant. I prefer to imagine Mace Windu is way better than Palpatine as swordsman, 1°) because Windu is widely considered as the best Jedi swordsman of his time, it would be very diminishing fo his character to have Palpatine as an equal in swordfighting, given that Palpatine is more a politician and force adept than everything else. 2°) because I think it's more interesting to have Palpatine knowingly engaged in duel with someone better than him, because his goal is not to win over Windu, it's to have Anakin saving him. Having Palpatine lesser than Windu in swordfight is also more interesting because it implies Palpatine took a big risk, a leap of faith in Anakin's arms, putting his own life at stake to get Anakin as his apprentice. It creates more depth to Palpatine's character, and more legitimity to Mace Windu.
yeah yeah, which is why palpatine fought YODA to a standstill. no, palpatine mastered ALL SEVEN forms of combat, it is made clear that he willingly lost, without vapaad, palpatine would have easily defeated windu
palpatine bested Yoda in a Force duel, not sword fighting ^^ I agree that Palpatine willingly lost against Windu, but only by not using his Force skills (thunder etc). If he wanted, maybe he could have fried Mace from the very beginning, but he didn't, it wasn't his plan. Windu is still the best swordsman, Palpatine doesn't need to master the sword to kill the best swordsman in the galaxy ;)
it's been said that both yoda and dooku surpassed windu as swordsman In my opinion, dooku was a far better duelist than anakin people talk about how it was anakin's djem so that smashed through dooku's makashi, but I think they've overlooked the most *obvious* factor in that fight it's simple why dooku lost he was old at the peak of his dueling abilities, he would OWN anakin, just like he would windu. I've read more into palpatine's abilities, and I find it VERY hard to believe that, vaapad or no, windu really defeated him, I still believe that palpatine could have easilly killed windu at any time, palpatine mastered EVERY form of lightsaber combat, he is after all, according to lucas and new canon, the most powerful sith who EVER lived in a lightsaber duel, darth sidious was invincible, he had every single style perefectly mastered at his disposal. including Vaapad itself, he probaly learned it by observing windu he even commented on juyo/vapadd claiming it perfect for a sith {they spent PLENTY of time together} the direct utility of shiicho the finesse of makashi the impregnable defense of soreasu the athleticism of ataru the raw power of djem so the "versatility" *cough* battle of geonosis *cough* of niman the aggression of juyo the nigh invincibility of vaapad sidious had ALL of these at his disposal a better duelist, much smarter, much stronger in the force, there is NO WAY that palpatine actually LOST to windu, he even had windu's trump card to use for his own. windu claiming that the fight was a standoff was just his pride clouding his judgment, or ignorance, sidious wasn't going all out note that sidious was only pretending to be weak and at windu's mercy, he was also holding back his lightning and would have blinded windu with his own lightsaber had he used his full power. in dragonball, the fighters RARELY fight at their FULL power until the very end. such is the case her
Your estimastion about Palpatine throwing the fight is intuitive estimations at best, there could be many other equally valid explanations (the fist example that comes to mind is that Sith does have a tendecy for thinking rather highly of themselves but that's a discussion for another day). Does Sith use Juyo, or do they have an adopted version for themselves?
That is true. Palpatine is a master of all seven forms of combat but we don't know which he uses exactly, though Juyo is indicated heavily. Only two have ever matched him; Mace Windu in RotS, and Luke Skywalker in Dark Empire.
In my opinion, Windu is the greatest duelist of the Jedi Order, prior to the Jedi purge. Not only did he help create/master the Vaapad style and not fall to the Dark-side, but he held out against Palpatine so much better than Yoda (not to mention he didnt die instantly like the other masters). I'm not convinced Palpatine threw the fight (unless he knew for a fact Anakin would pop up and save his ass), but he is an immensely powerful Dark-sider and definitely gave Windu the duel of his life
Maul avoided attacking directly with the force, preferring to use it to assist his considerable martial skills. In TPM, we see him move an object using telekinesis just once to open a door. He also executes a single well-timed force push which catches Obiwan off-guard and catapults him into the cooling shaft. However, Maul uses force assisted acrobatics liberally throughout. We can therefore assume that while he makes much use of Niman double-blade techniques, overall he relies more on Juyo.
Is it wrong then if my preferred styles are Ataru, Shien, Djem So (I have no preferred hand for dueling, and I have my fair share of experience in dueling, also Vader could use both in his armor days) Juyo and Vaapad? In many ways they compliment each other, Ataru providing the more arrangement in terms of mobility and off-setting the weakness of Shien in terms of a single opponent, Shien allowing for multiple opponents and providing Soresu's defensive capabilities and so forth
I see. They are cool indeed, and do help explain Juyo. I must admit, I find the style very cool, but it is still very ferocious and does sound very psychotic. Any plans on a Versus video pitting Mace Windu against another guy? I mean, with Vaapad, Windu could take almost anyone on without too much trouble in a lightsabre duel.
thanks for your answer! kendo originated on the battlefield. these lightsaber styles originated in choreographies. I looked it up, there aren't any distinct styles in the star wars movies, although they did give each character his fighting personality. it's all about cool choreography. real fighting is never, never pretty, and ends in few seconds only, at least with sharp swords. so I think it's a bit of a waste of time to try to learn these styles :(
Apart from Vaapad and Juyo both being centered on attack, why are they the same when Juyo is a staccato and Vaapad is a "blur of energy" and looks smooth. Also is Vaapad any more light-side oriented than Juyo? If so why.
Thank you! I completely agree on your stance in regards to the sideous vs windu fight; whenever I say that sideous threw the fight people think I'm hating on Windu (who I acknowledge is extremely badass) but common' you think the guy who planned the clone wars and fooled yoda was going to let the fight that could possibly destroy everything he built be up to chance?
It's speculated because some suggest that Sidious knows every form of lightsaber combat, since during combat Sidious is quite dangerous: he can switch styles to throw his opponents off.
I agree with most of your analysis, Jensaarai. But one thing: Vaapad was a off-shoot style Windu developed for his version of Form VII. Its not the same as saying Windu "mastered and perfected" Juyo. Also in the official novel, Windu even believes the best he could do was stalemate Sidious at best, and that was because of the power of the Superconducting Loop and his Shatterpoints.
One of the things that made Yoda realized he couldn't beat Sidious was the fact that the Sith had evolved, while the Jedi maintained themselves in the same style of things, Sidious himself actually is very disdainful towards lightsaber dueling, proclaiming that if they keep using lightsabers it is in order to humiliate the Jedi, if you play the games, and read the comics/books you can realize he doesn't really need a lightsaber, and he is very proud of that fact
So here's the thing, what IS Palpatine's style then? Is he, in fact, a Juyo stylist himself, or some other Sith variant? Also, are the Sith forms the same as the Jedi forms, or is there a complete other set of forms that only outwardly resemble the Jedi arts? The problem here is that a lot of poster-boy Sith were originally Jedi; Kun, Vader, Tyrannus, etc. Maul and Sidious were totally Sith for the whole of their lives, and Marek was trained as a Sith, but turned the other way.
So what it boils down to is that Juyo is basically inverted Soresu? As Soresu relied heavily on defense but with weak offense while Juyo heavily relied on offense but weak defense.
hey mate got a question, where do you get all your knowledge of this kind of stuff from. id imagine you would obtain this through books? if so could you please let me know which one, cheers.
It's highest degree, you're practically unstoppable. Sidious was unstoppable. Added that during the Darth Maul and Savage Opress fight when he uses 2 blades and frequent force abilities in that fight, it would make logical sense that he specializes in Niman.
Agree. Palpatine planned the whole thing out by telling Anakin he's the Sith, then Anakin "ratted" on Palpatine to Windu, Windu goes with 3 other Jedi to arrest Palpatine telling Anakin to not go with him. Palpatine has an "eye-witness" for his "assassination" attempt.
I have a question: Which Form is your most preferred, Jensaarai1? I mean sure anyone can use more than one, but I mean which most preferred Form would you yourself utilize in real life?
I know this is in a reply to something unrelated, but what are your views of an ithorian Jedi? Would they find some of the lightsaber forms difficult because of their strangely shaped-heads etc?... Just wondering if this has ever crossed your mind.
Nothing more than emotional content you bring into a fight but the trick is fooling the enemy that your pissed off but your not. If the writers of these forms should revise this
Didn't have enough characters. What I'm suggesting is that perhaps Vapaad addressed some (if not all) issues that Juyo did not in the heat of combat, yet still rendered it's practitioner vulnerable to, tough to mention, obvious fatal distractions? Maybe still, at it's core, Juyo/Vapaad causes the practitioner to see RED and ONLY focus on the target at hand. The fight between Windu and Palpatine would therefore be textbook to illustrate it's strengths and weaknesses.
You do make a valid point, and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable on this as you are. But what I dont understand is how there are sources out there that say Juyo is an "incomplete" form, and yet we have people who are credited as being practitioners, masters, and even instructors of the style, most notably, Skarch Vaunk from the Jedi Path (not to mention Rahm Kota and Galen Marek). It just seems kind of strange to me... then again, most of my knowledge on Lightsaber combat comes from Wookieepedia.
everything Plagueis knew, but everything all the Sith Lords of the Rule of Two had passed down. Sidious certainly knew of the ancient Sith and wanted to keep the Rule of Two in charge of things. I read Dooku wanted to convert the Jedi into a Sith Army, and amongst more important reasons, this was an additional reason for why Sidious wanted rid of him eventually after his purpose had been served (initiating the chaos of the Clone Wars that acted as the mechanism for the Rise of the Empire etc)
I wouldn't say Palpatine's political savvy is comparable to combative ingenuity; in politics you tends to have a lot more time to plot your approach and analyses every snippet of information before making a plan and placing yourself in the fray while in combat you are far more in the moment so need to actively more things in your direction. I suggest this more for Palpatine as his main approach to combat because his opinion of its use is simply to mock the Jedi and didn't take it too seriously himself. This is enhanced with his preferred form (as agreed upon by most of the fanbase): Niman (the general purpose lightsaber form) allowing him wide knowledge of combative scenarios to adapt to and granting him more time for studying the Darkside.
I think the deciding factor in Windu and Palpatine's duel would have been Palpatine's advantage in force abilities. Although Windu was extremely gifted in the force, he was little more than an insect compared to Palpatine's unreal, unmatchable power in the dark side. Palpatine is a smart guy, he was in no real danger. He was looking at the bigger picture which was turning Anakin to the dark side. That's another factor that proves he threw the fight, too.
Jensaarai1, what do you think the outcome of windu and sidious battle would have been if anakin had shown up? I read on Starwars.com that mace did defeat sidious (until anakin arrived), i do not know all that much about star wars truthfully and I have heard things from mace would win, sidious would win, or it could go either way
I'm not much of a martial arts expert but this seems somewhat like Jeet Kun Do (Bruce Lee's style), where both styles seem more eclectic and fluid than their counter-parts. In JKD's economy of motion they stress simplistic, direct, and aggresive strikes which is not unlike how Juyo is described as "more open and kinetic than Form V, but with a less elaborate appearance than Ataru." Bruce Lee described Jeet Kun Do as "Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy." Juyo/Vaapad also rely on the emotion in combat. Idk, it just seemed cool to me that these two badass fighting styles share the similar philosophies (although I think Bruce Lee didn't like constraining how he fights/trains to one style). edit-After reading up on Muraku66 or Jensaarai1's comment (idk how google+ works) I think I should be looking up more of the Kenjutsu side of combat to really get a grasp of what each of the seven styles are trying to achieve.
For the sake of arguement and adding to your knowledge, I have read the book on the Revenge of the Sith, which Goerge Lucas stated was canonical and approved on. In the book, it states Mace defeated the Dark Lord with his surperior fighting style. It goes into more detail on the fight, such as the emperor's fear of dying from falling out hte broken window, with this distraction being a turning point in the battle. The movie, more or less, portrayed itself more towards Palp giving up on purpose.
He may have used Juyo a little during the fight. Darth Sidious (correct me if I'm wrong) has mastered all 7 forms of Lightsaber Combat and is ambidextrous. This means if ANY form of lightsaber combat can counter his enemies form he basically has the fight unless his enemy can adapt just as well. That's why I think he would actually beat Windu eventually, not more strength and/or skill, just that unpredictability and knowledge of combat.
I thought it was Shien/Djem So with Juyo but during his personal sessions with PROXY he picked up some Soresu from the Obi-Wan records? Also I'm curious could Makashi be mashed with Juyo? I mean it seems like they are complete opposites with the rhythmic controlled Form II and the er Insane aggression filled Juyo
this form is very effective in breaking defenses,it has similar principles to the FMA, the principles are break your opponent's defence and kill him as quickly and painful as you can,it is associated with stick fighting most of the time for it uses blunt weapons
Andrew Ford I just went back through and watched all these videos again for the umpteenth time and I originally thought that as well. However, he described Djem So as the most "physically demanding form" but he described Juyo as the most "demanding form" stating that it does put a lot of physical demands on the body as well but it's the mental strain that practitioners really have to worry about. Also, when you couple the mental and physical demands the overall demand on a Jedi/Sith is the greatest of any of the 7 traditional forms of lightsaber combat.
Andrew Ford In fact, the most 'physically demanding' form of lightsaber combat is Form 4 Ataru! However, Form 7 Juyo is the most 'mentally demanding' form of lightsaber combat.
You pronounce many of the forms irregularly, in a manner that reminds me of how a lot of people mispronounce Pokemon names. Did you read about these when you were very young?
Palpatine says:
"Your hate will make you powerful."
Mace Windu says:
"Your hate will make ME powerful."
I guess you could say he gave Windu "UNLIMITED POWER!"
I saw someone say that they were confused because ***** said that multiple forms (Forms IV, V, and VII to be specific) were the "most demanding of all the forms. I'd like to take a minute to clarify. Form IV (Ataru) is the most demanding in an athletic and mobility sense, Form V (Shien/ Djem So) is the most demanding in terms of strength, Form VII (Juyo/ Vaapad) is the most demanding overall, it combines the high speed acrobatics of Ataru and the high strength power blows of Djem So, combined with the high stress mental and emotional aspect.
Juyo is completely broken in The Sith Lords. As a Guardian turned Weapon Master, with the sixth tier of Two-Weapon Fighting, and two lightsabers, a Force Jump attack will literally one-shot almost every late game mook, and even simple attacks will do insane amounts of damage if you have Force Speed active. On my last character, I FLATTENED Darth Sion in a straight-up lightsaber duel, and killed Kreia in record time.
If I was a jedi, I would focus on Soresu with Vaapad mixed in. This gives you the indomitable defense with the ability to use the energy of your opponent against him. This would also add some attack maneuvers to your strict defensive style.
*****
I have been checking out Terra Prime Lightsaber Academy's videos, and am frankly upset by the outlandish conclusion of every single Lightsaber form being based on Chinese Bagua swordplay. As a trained martial artist ( I trained in both Kyokushin Karate and Kenjutsu in Yokohama Japan), I will lay out where the actualreal world counterparts of the forms came from, if you take the time to read:
FORM 1= Simplified Kendo, which is not really a combat form, but a speed based form loosely based on actual Japanese swordplay.
FORM 2= A unique meld of both Spanish (slashing is prevalent) and French fencing (footwork and basic posture), with very little other priciples applied.
Form 3= I see Japanese kenjutsu-based blocks and angles, with Chinese Dao posture, blade flourishes, and initial stances. Very interesting.
FORM 4= Seeing how the body turns with each strike, the body is the main axis of movement, rather than the wrists. The body rotations are based on chinese footwork (possibly Bagua or a staff style), yet the stance, swings, and posture are Japanese ( minus the full rotations). I imagine that many personal systems of early Shinobi/ assassins would resemble the acrobatics of this style.
Form 5= absolute and pure battlefield kenjutsu, with excessive flourishes, but otherwise identical to what a practitioner of contemporary Kenjutsu would use. The massive build up of kinetic energy with each swing, lack of mobility, and reliance on strength are hallmarks of it's real-world counterpart.
FORM 6= hasn't been explored canonically, yet seems to resemble both schools of Daisho-weilding kenjutsu, and dual chinese swordstyles, although adapted for single bladed use. The result would be a balaned, and rather confusing challenge to fight.
FORM 7= canonically, this form is also kenjutsu, although with aggressive reverse strikes immediately following the conventional strikes (watch mace's blade when palpatine was "jumping around". Notice how his attacks where chained) Maul and Sidious's Juyo seemed to be more aggressive, lacking the complex intentional timing of Windu. Windu also angles the blade deceptively, with unorthodox yet effective angles of blocking and attack, whereas Sidious' s style seems similiar to the Shinsengumi's swordplay of old. (Aggressive stabbing, with deceptive and vicious follow up.) Form 7 as a whole hold a rather deceptive and forceful physical element as well.
This guy is just a star wars nerd and it is obvious he has no martial arts training, thus not having the mind of one. I stated something like you're observation in one of his other videos.
I'm a 2nd dan black belt in Shotokan, and I understand exactly where you are coming from. I feel these forms could really use the mind of an experienced martial artist, because I dont care how much you know about star wars, real world study of REAL martial arts is the only way to acquire this wisdom.
Indeed I found comment very compelling as I to am a martial artist specifically mizhong louhan and chen hunyuan taijiquan and the only part I would disagree on juyo specifically Darth Maul. His when you look at his use of spinning sidekicks and butterfly kicks and twists and the use of the saber staff is very northern shaolinesque. Everything else fairly accurate.
Very cool explanation. thanks!
Guys this is STAR WARS, not real life. Get over yourselves. No-one really cares how fictional fighting styles compare with real-world fighting styles. Its not about being realistic. Its about being creative. Lighten up. Lol...
"Hans Zimmer truly is a genius." Sold. Great final video on Juyo. Loved your in depth look at the battle between Windu and Palpatine. Wow, I can't imagine the effect this would have on a person if they weren't as badass as Mace Windu. It is truly an advanced technique only to be mastered by a select few Jedi and/or Sith.
Juyo seems like a sith fighting form to me like Niman is a jedi fighting form.
marinus18 Juyo was Maul's form of choice.
I could see that
remember too, windu could see shatterpoints. Palpatine was smart, but Windu could find his weakness, in the novel, thats why they end up on the ledge. Also, the only reason Windu lost was b/c he failed to see Anakin's shatterpoint, which was palpatine. I dont think he threw the fight until the end. I think he sensed anakin coming when windu couldn't and recognized an opportunity. but Mace would have won eventually since he figured out how to weaken palpatine.
I’m not experienced in the lore or books, and feel free to give feedback. But, based on the descriptions I’ve seen of the forms’ strengths and weaknesses as well as my personal traits, my preferred styles to learn after Shii-Cho would probably be these:
III: Soresu- Considering my minimal stamina, my first instinct to survive a fight is often “Best defense is a good, quick offense”, perhaps suggesting Ataru or Juyo. However, when facing foes that may be able to counter or endure immediate offense, which would drain me faster, I believe conserving my energy to defend against and outlast my opponents is the smarter strategy. It would also offer openings to study their technique and aid in holding my own against ranged weapons rather than focusing on close quarters combat. This alludes to the metaphor of the tortoise and the hare, that sometimes “slow and steady wins the race”.
VI: Niman- This relates deeply to me, both in my limited physicality and creativity, to adapt to unfamiliar situations and circumstances. This mindset lends itself well to both the dual wielding of Jar'Kai and the double bladed saber forms, which revolve around keeping opponents on their toes. Additionally, utilizing force based techniques would help me well offensively and in keeping a distance from my opponents, giving me short moments to catch my breath and anticipate the next move. Put simply, this is the best style to compliment my flexible personality, unpredictability, improvisation and philosophy in moderation.
From this specific cocktail, it seems my main weaknesses would be against:
A) The strength of Shien/Djem So, meaning I wouldn’t go head to head with more physically specialized enemies. Users of Makashi and Ataru, I could likely manage so long as I keep pace against their speed and agility. Defense is key here.
B) The lightning quick and fluid blend of strength and speed in VII, specifically Vaapad. Countering would be absolutely crucial to survive, given that force powers alone would not be enough to maintain a ranged battle except through effective timing. This would undoubtedly be my worst case scenario duel, heavily exhausting and likely coming down to my improvising ability.
Keith Harris I'm not experienced with the Eu either, but these videos explain the 7 Jedi forms very well, and I feel like I understand them enough.
+Keith Harris Thats interesting. I specialize in Form III and V. I generally only want to survive to talk people down, but when that isn't an option I just try to batter people into oblivion. Is it boring, absolutely, but dang it if it isn't effective.
+Mudoh415 I fight with pool ques almost everyday for over 10 years and I specialize in makashi, shien and niman.
teleportaat I've seen videos of an academy in England (I think) that teaches people how to fight in lightsaber styles with light-up swords. They start with Shii-Cho and move up from there, pretty much just like the council in the movies, the dedication to detail is incredible. They teach it mainly as choreography, I believe, no "force" routines are involved. It's really expensive to get in though, not worth it unless you plan to commit all the way to graduation.
+Keith Harris I don't think Shii-Cho, Soresu and Niman would be an effective combination if you lack stamina. For example, Obi-Wan is a master of Soresu and outlasts adversaries but he is also one of the most fit and toughest Jedi ever. Shii-Cho is an excellent foundation and I think every lightsaber duelist should know it to adept level before branching off, and Niman sounds like it's a perfect fit for you on a number of levels... however both of these are relatively light in terms of offense, Shii-Cho being very basic in ability and Niman notably light in everything just with the benefit of incorporating Force abilities fluidly.
It's difficult to advise you more without knowing more of your abilities than "low stamina", but at present I would say that Form I and VI are sufficient to help you be effective in multiple scenarios since it sounds like your main interest isn't particularly in direct combat, and just accepting that you're not a blademaster. Which isn't really a big deal, in my opinion, since you sound more cerebrally inclined; no shame in being Yoda instead of Mace Windu. That said, I think that your idea about overwhelming force is a good tactic: much like Yoda (who lacks stamina) you'd be best served with incorporating Ataru to try and end fights quickly.
I have to agree with you about Palpatine deliberately losing to Mace, Jensaarai. And I'm also convinced he added one more piece of manipulation into the fight at the end: If you play it frame-by-frame in slow motion when Anakin swings his Lightsaber to intervene, you'll notice that Palpatine has his hands raised slightly, and then at the point of impact, Palpatine's hands jerk slightly. What that tells me is that Anakin was trying to either block Mace's Lightsaber, or knock it out of his hand, but Palpatine used the Force to re-direct Anakin's aim just enough so that Mace's hand would be sliced off instead.
Good theory man
Good theory
I enjoyed the breakdown of these styles, however I disagree with Palpatine throwing the fight. I think the Star wars continuity supports that Mace Windu had the edge until Anakin Skywalker got involved..
Mace vs Yoda
I have developed a theory on Form VII. At first the style favored by the ancient sith on korriban. As shown in the artwork of Tale's of the Jedi- The Fall of the Sith Empire Part 3, during the fight between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kresh they were both using a highly aggresive fighting style. However seeing as how swordplay wasn't the main focus of the Sith during that time, then the style was evidenly underdeveloped if not only recently developed at the time. Then came Form VI (Niman). Much like how Form V (Shien/ Djem so) was developed from Form III (Soresu), I believe that Joyo was developed in small part from Niman. Niman was a style that took bits and pieces from the previous 5 styles resulting in a balanced fighting form relying on moderation. Somebody must have introduced their knowledge of classical Juyo used by the anchient Sith into Niman resulting in the Juyo we know and love today. So all in all, Juyo is basically Niman with a homicidal lunatic mentality. Again this is just a theory. If anybody want's to chime in, please do.
I love the music you put in each video. Each one goes very well with each lightsaber style.
"Limitless pool of power that is the dark side..." Not sure if I agree with this. The dark side is a quick, easy path to power, but even a Sith on the level of Palpatine, Bane or even Revan pales in comparison to a true master of the light side. Unfortunately, few such matters have ever existed. Anakin had a fair point when saying that the Jedi fear power. Pure love is the greatest power in existence, and the highest one could ever climb on the ladder of the Force.
How would you describe mace using his dark side into a weapon of light in your theory ?.
Jensaarai.......i love u man....you agree with me when saying Palpatine threw the fight with Windu. The stupid fans who say he won out of pure power and skill, really REALLY annoys me. You described it perfectly, and i commend you with utmost respect.
Juyo would be my chosen style. It fits me, as both an Athlete and a Martial Artist. I love to fight, and I love the physically demanding part. I would Master only Juyo first, then make my own personal style from there. All of the other 5 forms would be mixed in with it (once I mastered them, of course.) I would use Vapaad against Jedi and other Sith.
What martial art do you do though? For me, as a Kali/Fencer, I would rather go for Makashi (Form 2). But the good thing about Form 2 is you can branch out and use ingenuity, allowing for variations.
4th degree brown in TaeKwonDo, did wrestling, boxing, and a little Wing Chun.
Ah, I do Wing Chun as well, and it explains why you would want to do the quickest of the styles, as that what Wing Chun is about. And I guess boxing is a bit like Form 1. I started with Muay Thai and in fights I usually regress back to that, as it's a bit like boxing.
I a agree. I believe that a fight should end as quickly as possible, if you know what you are doing like Juyo. I mean, you need defense and counter striking of course. But I like to press the attack and counter. This also resembles Djem So.
I agree on that principle, end a fight before it's begun, but being flashy like form 2 would be fun. When sword fighting I usually attack and counter at the same time, I don't know which style that would be.
This is my favorite form now! I will forever use this form now. Thank you Jensaarai!
Political prowess does not necessarily equate to battle-sense. If a song of ice and fire has taught me anything it is that there are multiple intelligences, skill in the field of battle does not mean you have skill at playing the game.
Of course I'm willing to believe your theory if I was aware of Palpatine being a combative genius. Somebody who regards his skills with a blade as nothing more than a way to embarrass the Jedi doesn't strike me as the combative type.
spikegilfer1997 He definitely wasn't the combative type. He was a master in the force, but not really all that great with a saber. He was so powerful in the force that he was able to hide his massive amount of power from the jedi and manipulate the entire galaxy to side with him over the Jedi. However he knew that Anakin was already much more powerful than he was and he knew by using padme against anakin he could manipulate the battle between him and Mace to appear as if the jedi were attempting to take control. He let everything happen to him because he knew if he played weak people would jump to defend him. He was probably the best manipulator in the history of the sith, but he was also a selfish fool who refused to follow Darth Banes sith order and instead hid his teachings from vader, thus decimating the sith order and it's teachings. Too bad Anakin was not Banes apprentice, they would have probably destroyed any trace of the jedi and would have instilled permanent sith order into the universe.
I really enjoy your videos and find them very interesting. One small gripe, (I don't know if it's just me but) the music volume at most times drowns out your voice forcing me to strain to hear what you're actually saying. Other then that keep up the awesome content.
Wow, awesome video. So interesting. Also this music really fits in to your videos, next to star wars music :P
Juyo is my favorite form it fit me well using my RAGE
I think Sidious and Windu both willingly put themselves in that position on the window knowing that their opponent wanted this because they both trusted Anakin and they both expected him to take their side. Thus it was both of their goals to take the position which their duel ended in, Sidious intended to deceive Anakin into killing Windu, and Windu believed that Anakin would help him or allow him to kill Sidious.
Windu had no idea he was coming, he even told him to stay and not help them
Adam Sloss Is a Boss Except any jedi/sith would have been able to sense Anakins massive presence in the force. Mace purely just predicted the outcome the wrong way. He didn't forsee palpatine hiding his true power until it was too late. Mace told him to stay back because he could sense that anakin didn't know what to do. my personal opinion is that Palpatine used his massive force presence to ironically cover up how truly powerful he was so that anakin would help him. Mace was no match for anakin at that point. Anakin was too strong for any jedi to control.
+NerdRagerGaming no just no that is the weakest anakin ever he was way to emotional and at he's peak in the movies today and windu would destroy him windu cause vapaad and yoda cause he is the strongest Jedi with the force of he's era
+Fire Fist Ace What are you talking about? Anakin was at his absolute PEAK when his emotions were flowing during the fight between windu and sidious, this is canon and not up for debate. This is why Anakin was able to even beat windu so quickly and Palpatine who later would become the incarnation of the dark side was afraid of him. The only people that rivaled Anakin were Mace, Obi, Yoda and Sidious who were each considered the literal incarnations of their combat styles, yoda even being the incarnation of the light side. It was only after Anakin became the mechanical Darth Vader that he was weak enough to be beaten by the old jedi. By that time in the movies every one of the old Jedi Masters were dead.
One of the better SW-oriented channels I've seen so far! Anyway, is it ok if I debate with you on a certain point? Shouldn't the forms' pronunciations be more orientally/exotically said rather than American? Since Lucas cited Kurosawa as an influence, I'd assume he'd inject the Japanese or oriental theme into his world for the succeeding generations to follow. For instance, Makashi, Soresu, and Ataru have a Nihongo intonation and structure and is best heard with the middle syllable emphasized.
I just watched the scene again and I was remembering it wrong.
It starts with the Jedi arriving to arrest Palaptine who are then interrupted by Anakin. For some reason I remembered it as the other way around - Sidious revealing himself to Anakin and then both being interrupted by the Jedi 'lynch mob'.
I haven't read any of the books so I bow to your greater knowledge :)
Are you going to go into Jar'Kai? Just curious. I am studying Staff-saber combat for dueling applications.
So Palpatine has allowed Mace to gain tactical advantage while changing the strategic environment. He lost the battle to win the war and gain Anakin's full assistance in this battle and the war. Well played =)
And that makes sense, because Vaapad is a form that is, essentially, the lightside harnassing and controlling the darkside, and using both towards a means. That is, in this form you are powerful because you are using both sides of the force towards a common goal. Thus, because Mace showed mastery of light over dark, and the ability to direct both, it makes sense that he would beat Palpatine. Even the most powerful tactical mastermind can't account for EVERYTHING. He cut it very very close.
Wow...the way you put it, it makes it sound like Windu should have been the Grand Master on the council. Seriously, your phrasing is so perfect you're basically saying without the advantage of Vaapad, Yoda (or other Jedi for that matter) never stood a chance.
Me too. You have the best defense and offense. You are a master at blocking blaster fire and lightsabers, and you can destroy single or multiple enemies in a few strikes. That combo is very OP, but it is also very hard to learn, so that's the only trade off.
alright this got me curious about those lightsaber forms... may I ask, where do these styles originate? books or movies ?? are they really practical, is any of you who talk about it able to use acatually them in sparring? or do you just enjoy the theory... and making choreographies with it (if so, it's not practical). x)
The thing about the duel between Palpatine and Mace Windu is true. If they were to battle on neutral ground, they would be equal. But, the same goes for Soresu. Soresu, by definition, is a form of complete defense. If Obi-wan were to fight Mace Windu, or Palpatine, they would be able to go on forever, or at least until the weaker opponnent gives out.
except 1: Form 7 is said to be able to penetrate Soresu's defenses, 2:Obi-wan doesn't have a limitless pool of Force Energy, and 3: Both of them have the ability to blitz Obi-wan
Ok im getting a bit confused which form is the most physically demanding. Before you said it was form 5 and now its form 7? Mind clearing it up for me?
in terms of mental and physical conditioning, form VII has the most demand, second is Form V, third is Form IV
OK Obi Wan vs. Mace Windu! must do that.
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mace_Windu
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad
a thousand years ago the form was band from the jedi because to many jedi fell to the dark side and joined the sith in the new sith wars which lasted 1000 years. Mace Windu was so far as i know the only jedi to even master this form entirely but Mace said that Sora did not master Vaapad, Vaapad mastered him only a few people used it including Darth Bane
Sidious went as far to call form 7 "sith style"
"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen."
―Yoda
I have my own version of the prequel where Palpatine demonstrates his force mastery by taking out the two Jedi deputies not by direct combat, but rather telekinetically turning their own weapons against them with only Windu being able to ward himself against such an attack. This would have the affect of reducing the field but also creating an impetus for strong action on Windu's part, the emotion of the two masters being picked up by Anakin and motivating him to get to the scene fast.
I agree with your analysis of the Sidious-Windu fight although I was surprised you kept referring to him as Palpatine as by that point his cover was clearly blown :)
My interpretation was that he saw his arrest as an opportunity to complete Anakin's seduction by the dark side.
He would've thrown the fight even if he was able to win because he wanted to appear vulnerable to Anakin to show that he was not threat that the Jedi council claimed he was while also forcing Anakin to come to his aid.
Heh, those are the same ones I would have gone with. Did Darth Maul use Niman or Juyo more, do you know? One (or both) of those were his specialty, right?
I would study Niman and then concentrate on this style since I find myself not only attracted to it but frankly finding comfort since my personality fits unleashing pure silent rage upon my opponent.
i completely agree! it revolves around combating lightsabers and people with laser blasters. things that don't exist today and most likely won't exist ever. and as a karate practitioner i agree that fights don't look cool, are messy, and end fast haha.
If you've read the ROTS novel, Palpatine purposely let Windu take control, as he sensed Anakin during the fight. Windu used his shatterpoint ability to sense that Palpatine's shatterpoint was Anakin himself. So, essentially, Sidious let himself "lose his guard" so as to manipulate Anakin further.
I also agree that Sidious lost on purpose. But what about Windu's ability to see shatterpoints? Would it really be an evenly matched battle taking that into consideration? Also, I am really enjoying your nerdy videos. You have a new subscriber.
I don't know... I think Windu did outmaneuver Palpatine with the window maneuver. However, Palpatine reminded Anakin telepathically that the only way to save Padme was through him. This was a great maneuver on Palpatine's part that insured victory before the fight ever began. It didn't matter if it was one or all of the Jedi that came for him that had the upper hand. All that mattered was forcing Anakin to make the final choice to risk losing the woman he loved or turning to the Dark Side.
That said, great overall Juyo analysis. It was awesome. Seriously.
awesome series, I should have discovered it earlier :)
About Mace Windu and Palpatine, I have to say I disagree with you saying they're equals in their fight in Coruscant. I prefer to imagine Mace Windu is way better than Palpatine as swordsman, 1°) because Windu is widely considered as the best Jedi swordsman of his time, it would be very diminishing fo his character to have Palpatine as an equal in swordfighting, given that Palpatine is more a politician and force adept than everything else. 2°) because I think it's more interesting to have Palpatine knowingly engaged in duel with someone better than him, because his goal is not to win over Windu, it's to have Anakin saving him. Having Palpatine lesser than Windu in swordfight is also more interesting because it implies Palpatine took a big risk, a leap of faith in Anakin's arms, putting his own life at stake to get Anakin as his apprentice. It creates more depth to Palpatine's character, and more legitimity to Mace Windu.
yeah yeah, which is why palpatine fought YODA to a standstill. no, palpatine mastered ALL SEVEN forms of combat, it is made clear that he willingly lost, without vapaad, palpatine would have easily defeated windu
palpatine bested Yoda in a Force duel, not sword fighting ^^ I agree that Palpatine willingly lost against Windu, but only by not using his Force skills (thunder etc). If he wanted, maybe he could have fried Mace from the very beginning, but he didn't, it wasn't his plan. Windu is still the best swordsman, Palpatine doesn't need to master the sword to kill the best swordsman in the galaxy ;)
ah I see your point
but I still feel that palpatine is the best swordsman of the two, save for vaapad
yeah I guess we can assume Windu owes his status of best swordsman mostly to his mastering of vaapad. Makes sense for me too, it fits his personality
it's been said that both yoda and dooku surpassed windu as swordsman
In my opinion, dooku was a far better duelist than anakin
people talk about how it was anakin's djem so that smashed through dooku's makashi, but I think they've overlooked the most *obvious* factor in that fight
it's simple why dooku lost
he was old
at the peak of his dueling abilities, he would OWN anakin, just like he would windu. I've read more into palpatine's abilities, and I find it VERY hard to believe that, vaapad or no, windu really defeated him, I still believe that palpatine could have easilly killed windu at any time, palpatine mastered EVERY form of lightsaber combat, he is after all, according to lucas and new canon, the most powerful sith who EVER lived
in a lightsaber duel, darth sidious was invincible, he had every single style perefectly mastered at his disposal. including Vaapad itself, he probaly learned it by observing windu he even commented on juyo/vapadd claiming it perfect for a sith {they spent PLENTY of time together}
the direct utility of shiicho
the finesse of makashi
the impregnable defense of soreasu
the athleticism of ataru
the raw power of djem so
the "versatility" *cough* battle of geonosis *cough* of niman
the aggression of juyo
the nigh invincibility of vaapad
sidious had ALL of these at his disposal
a better duelist, much smarter, much stronger in the force, there is NO WAY that palpatine actually LOST to windu, he even had windu's trump card to use for his own. windu claiming that the fight was a standoff was just his pride clouding his judgment, or ignorance, sidious wasn't going all out
note that sidious was only pretending to be weak and at windu's mercy, he was also holding back his lightning and would have blinded windu with his own lightsaber had he used his full power.
in dragonball, the fighters RARELY fight at their FULL power until the very end.
such is the case her
Your estimastion about Palpatine throwing the fight is intuitive estimations at best, there could be many other equally valid explanations (the fist example that comes to mind is that Sith does have a tendecy for thinking rather highly of themselves but that's a discussion for another day).
Does Sith use Juyo, or do they have an adopted version for themselves?
That is true. Palpatine is a master of all seven forms of combat but we don't know which he uses exactly, though Juyo is indicated heavily. Only two have ever matched him; Mace Windu in RotS, and Luke Skywalker in Dark Empire.
In my opinion, Windu is the greatest duelist of the Jedi Order, prior to the Jedi purge. Not only did he help create/master the Vaapad style and not fall to the Dark-side, but he held out against Palpatine so much better than Yoda (not to mention he didnt die instantly like the other masters). I'm not convinced Palpatine threw the fight (unless he knew for a fact Anakin would pop up and save his ass), but he is an immensely powerful Dark-sider and definitely gave Windu the duel of his life
Maul avoided attacking directly with the force, preferring to use it to assist his considerable martial skills.
In TPM, we see him move an object using telekinesis just once to open a door. He also executes a single well-timed force push which catches Obiwan off-guard and catapults him into the cooling shaft. However, Maul uses force assisted acrobatics liberally throughout.
We can therefore assume that while he makes much use of Niman double-blade techniques, overall he relies more on Juyo.
juyo is probably my favorite of the
lightsaber forms
Is it wrong then if my preferred styles are Ataru, Shien, Djem So (I have no preferred hand for dueling, and I have my fair share of experience in dueling, also Vader could use both in his armor days) Juyo and Vaapad? In many ways they compliment each other, Ataru providing the more arrangement in terms of mobility and off-setting the weakness of Shien in terms of a single opponent, Shien allowing for multiple opponents and providing Soresu's defensive capabilities and so forth
I see. They are cool indeed, and do help explain Juyo. I must admit, I find the style very cool, but it is still very ferocious and does sound very psychotic.
Any plans on a Versus video pitting Mace Windu against another guy? I mean, with Vaapad, Windu could take almost anyone on without too much trouble in a lightsabre duel.
thanks for your answer! kendo originated on the battlefield. these lightsaber styles originated in choreographies. I looked it up, there aren't any distinct styles in the star wars movies, although they did give each character his fighting personality. it's all about cool choreography. real fighting is never, never pretty, and ends in few seconds only, at least with sharp swords. so I think it's a bit of a waste of time to try to learn these styles :(
Apart from Vaapad and Juyo both being centered on attack, why are they the same when Juyo is a staccato and Vaapad is a "blur of energy" and looks smooth. Also is Vaapad any more light-side oriented than Juyo? If so why.
Thank you! I completely agree on your stance in regards to the sideous vs windu fight; whenever I say that sideous threw the fight people think I'm hating on Windu (who I acknowledge is extremely badass) but common' you think the guy who planned the clone wars and fooled yoda was going to let the fight that could possibly destroy everything he built be up to chance?
It's speculated because some suggest that Sidious knows every form of lightsaber combat, since during combat Sidious is quite dangerous: he can switch styles to throw his opponents off.
I agree with most of your analysis, Jensaarai. But one thing: Vaapad was a off-shoot style Windu developed for his version of Form VII. Its not the same as saying Windu "mastered and perfected" Juyo.
Also in the official novel, Windu even believes the best he could do was stalemate Sidious at best, and that was because of the power of the Superconducting Loop and his Shatterpoints.
Just a quick thought. These vids are absolutely awesome.
Your videos were very informative and well made, well done! By the way, I was wondering, what is the song at 3:10 ?
Hmm, good point, pal. You're very knowledgable about Star Wars.
By the way, who are the guys at 00:36, 1:30 and 1:37?
Jensaarai I have a question
Which combination of combat forms would be the best? And Why?
One of the things that made Yoda realized he couldn't beat Sidious was the fact that the Sith had evolved, while the Jedi maintained themselves in the same style of things, Sidious himself actually is very disdainful towards lightsaber dueling, proclaiming that if they keep using lightsabers it is in order to humiliate the Jedi, if you play the games, and read the comics/books you can realize he doesn't really need a lightsaber, and he is very proud of that fact
So here's the thing, what IS Palpatine's style then? Is he, in fact, a Juyo stylist himself, or some other Sith variant? Also, are the Sith forms the same as the Jedi forms, or is there a complete other set of forms that only outwardly resemble the Jedi arts? The problem here is that a lot of poster-boy Sith were originally Jedi; Kun, Vader, Tyrannus, etc. Maul and Sidious were totally Sith for the whole of their lives, and Marek was trained as a Sith, but turned the other way.
So what it boils down to is that Juyo is basically inverted Soresu? As Soresu relied heavily on defense but with weak offense while Juyo heavily relied on offense but weak defense.
hey mate got a question, where do you get all your knowledge of this kind of stuff from. id imagine you would obtain this through books? if so could you please let me know which one, cheers.
Any chance of getting a video like this talking about the Trakata style?
It's highest degree, you're practically unstoppable. Sidious was unstoppable. Added that during the Darth Maul and Savage Opress fight when he uses 2 blades and frequent force abilities in that fight, it would make logical sense that he specializes in Niman.
My favorite style: calm on the outside, insane and bloodthirsty on the inside
Agree. Palpatine planned the whole thing out by telling Anakin he's the Sith, then Anakin "ratted" on Palpatine to Windu, Windu goes with 3 other Jedi to arrest Palpatine telling Anakin to not go with him. Palpatine has an "eye-witness" for his "assassination" attempt.
I have a question: Which Form is your most preferred, Jensaarai1? I mean sure anyone can use more than one, but I mean which most preferred Form would you yourself utilize in real life?
I know this is in a reply to something unrelated, but what are your views of an ithorian Jedi? Would they find some of the lightsaber forms difficult because of their strangely shaped-heads etc?...
Just wondering if this has ever crossed your mind.
Jensaarai, what do you personally think of Mace Windu (apart from the fact he's played by Samuel L. Jackson)?
Nothing more than emotional content you bring into a fight but the trick is fooling the enemy that your pissed off but your not. If the writers of these forms should revise this
0:35 Did Anoon Bondara specialize in Juyo? I haven't seen any source that points to that.
I enjoyed this one very much. Thank you,
He also got him out of maces fighting form at one point in the duel. He got him to defend when he had his blade close to windus chest backing him up.
Are there any books about Exar Kun? Or Darth Revan BEFORE the Revan novel, where he's still a Sith?
Didn't have enough characters. What I'm suggesting is that perhaps Vapaad addressed some (if not all) issues that Juyo did not in the heat of combat, yet still rendered it's practitioner vulnerable to, tough to mention, obvious fatal distractions? Maybe still, at it's core, Juyo/Vapaad causes the practitioner to see RED and ONLY focus on the target at hand. The fight between Windu and Palpatine would therefore be textbook to illustrate it's strengths and weaknesses.
Thank you more mace windu!!!! You leave me hungry for more!!!
You do make a valid point, and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable on this as you are. But what I dont understand is how there are sources out there that say Juyo is an "incomplete" form, and yet we have people who are credited as being practitioners, masters, and even instructors of the style, most notably, Skarch Vaunk from the Jedi Path (not to mention Rahm Kota and Galen Marek). It just seems kind of strange to me... then again, most of my knowledge on Lightsaber combat comes from Wookieepedia.
BTW: the Vapaad ready stance is an inside right guard with left foot forward and right foot back or vice versa for left handed duelists.
Hey jensaarai which lightsaber form do you think is better for fast paced fighting ataru or vaapad?
everything Plagueis knew, but everything all the Sith Lords of the Rule of Two had passed down. Sidious certainly knew of the ancient Sith and wanted to keep the Rule of Two in charge of things. I read Dooku wanted to convert the Jedi into a Sith Army, and amongst more important reasons, this was an additional reason for why Sidious wanted rid of him eventually after his purpose had been served (initiating the chaos of the Clone Wars that acted as the mechanism for the Rise of the Empire etc)
Juyo sounds AWESOME!!! I'd practice it!!! 😝
I wouldn't say Palpatine's political savvy is comparable to combative ingenuity; in politics you tends to have a lot more time to plot your approach and analyses every snippet of information before making a plan and placing yourself in the fray while in combat you are far more in the moment so need to actively more things in your direction. I suggest this more for Palpatine as his main approach to combat because his opinion of its use is simply to mock the Jedi and didn't take it too seriously himself. This is enhanced with his preferred form (as agreed upon by most of the fanbase): Niman (the general purpose lightsaber form) allowing him wide knowledge of combative scenarios to adapt to and granting him more time for studying the Darkside.
I think the deciding factor in Windu and Palpatine's duel would have been Palpatine's advantage in force abilities. Although Windu was extremely gifted in the force, he was little more than an insect compared to Palpatine's unreal, unmatchable power in the dark side. Palpatine is a smart guy, he was in no real danger. He was looking at the bigger picture which was turning Anakin to the dark side. That's another factor that proves he threw the fight, too.
Jensaarai1, what do you think the outcome of windu and sidious battle would have been if anakin had shown up? I read on Starwars.com that mace did defeat sidious (until anakin arrived), i do not know all that much about star wars truthfully and I have heard things from mace would win, sidious would win, or it could go either way
sorry i meant if anakin had not shown up
juyo would be me. and yes i think windu won . atleast the lightsaber battle with palp
I'm not much of a martial arts expert but this seems somewhat like Jeet Kun Do (Bruce Lee's style), where both styles seem more eclectic and fluid than their counter-parts. In JKD's economy of motion they stress simplistic, direct, and aggresive strikes which is not unlike how Juyo is described as "more open and kinetic than Form V, but with a less elaborate appearance than Ataru." Bruce Lee described Jeet Kun Do as "Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy." Juyo/Vaapad also rely on the emotion in combat. Idk, it just seemed cool to me that these two badass fighting styles share the similar philosophies (although I think Bruce Lee didn't like constraining how he fights/trains to one style).
edit-After reading up on Muraku66 or Jensaarai1's comment (idk how google+ works) I think I should be looking up more of the Kenjutsu side of combat to really get a grasp of what each of the seven styles are trying to achieve.
For the sake of arguement and adding to your knowledge, I have read the book on the Revenge of the Sith, which Goerge Lucas stated was canonical and approved on. In the book, it states Mace defeated the Dark Lord with his surperior fighting style. It goes into more detail on the fight, such as the emperor's fear of dying from falling out hte broken window, with this distraction being a turning point in the battle. The movie, more or less, portrayed itself more towards Palp giving up on purpose.
He may have used Juyo a little during the fight. Darth Sidious (correct me if I'm wrong) has mastered all 7 forms of Lightsaber Combat and is ambidextrous. This means if ANY form of lightsaber combat can counter his enemies form he basically has the fight unless his enemy can adapt just as well. That's why I think he would actually beat Windu eventually, not more strength and/or skill, just that unpredictability and knowledge of combat.
I thought it was Shien/Djem So with Juyo but during his personal sessions with PROXY he picked up some Soresu from the Obi-Wan records? Also I'm curious could Makashi be mashed with Juyo? I mean it seems like they are complete opposites with the rhythmic controlled Form II and the er Insane aggression filled Juyo
So the people in your martial arts class also possess force abilities?
That is true. And as Jensaarai perdicted out, those who practiced Juyo had little tolerance of Niman.
this form is very effective in breaking defenses,it has similar principles to the FMA, the principles are break your opponent's defence and kill him as quickly and painful as you can,it is associated with stick fighting most of the time for it uses blunt weapons
What I Like About This Lightsaber Form,That It Uses Your Will Of Mind To Kill Your Opponent As Cold Blooded And Ruthless As Possible
Didn't you say that Djem So was the most physically demanding form of lightsaber combat in an earlier video? That's kind of contradictory.
Andrew Ford I just went back through and watched all these videos again for the umpteenth time and I originally thought that as well. However, he described Djem So as the most "physically demanding form" but he described Juyo as the most "demanding form" stating that it does put a lot of physical demands on the body as well but it's the mental strain that practitioners really have to worry about. Also, when you couple the mental and physical demands the overall demand on a Jedi/Sith is the greatest of any of the 7 traditional forms of lightsaber combat.
I would believe that would be Ataru, as it is basicaly acrobatics made into a martial art.
Andrew Ford In fact, the most 'physically demanding' form of lightsaber combat is Form 4 Ataru! However, Form 7 Juyo is the most 'mentally demanding' form of lightsaber combat.
What form(s) would you recommend for a long handled lightsaber?
You know, it did actually say Bondara utilised Juyo on Wookiepedia, but I just wondered which source that actually said it. Thank you for telling me.
To be exact, in 19 BBY, Windu was 53 when he died. At that same year, Sidious was 63
You pronounce many of the forms irregularly, in a manner that reminds me of how a lot of people mispronounce Pokemon names. Did you read about these when you were very young?