Lenore and Hector: Love, Manipulation, and Empathy in Castlevania - Therapist Reacts!
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
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Join psychotherapist Georgia Dow as she delves into the complex relationship between vampire Lenore and prisoner Hector in Castlevania. In this video, Georgia explores the blurred lines of love, manipulation, and empathy that define their connection. She dissects the motivations behind Lenore's actions, questioning whether her care for Hector stems from genuine emotions or a calculated strategy. Georgia delves into the nuances of Lenore's treatment of Hector, drawing parallels to the empathy she displayed in caring for a spider, and discusses the potential presence of Stockholm syndrome. Don't miss this thought-provoking analysis that unravels the complexities of Lenore and Hector's twisted dynamic in Castlevania.
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I think both Hector and lenore have a limited capacity to love as equals. Lenore and Hector both see each other's " species" as somewhat animal-like. Lenore sees humans as potential catle, due to being a vampire and Hector sees vamipres as cats. I think what they had at the end was as close to love as either of them could realistically get. When Lenore goes into the sun, she says " I will not live in a cage, even with you" she is saying how much Hector actually means to her. She absolutely dehumanized him and treated him as a pet, but I think that is largely how she deals with anything she actually cares about. Children who deal with the reality of war, often get very attached to pets. Pets gave them focus and something they can put their energy into that actually benefits from it. In her own way, making Hector her pet is how she can show her love ( or what love is for her) She never mentions that she loves her sisters. she works with them and is loyal to them, but she never says that she actually cares about them deeply.
Holy hell, smack me with a sledgehammer why don't you 😢
Lenore is a fascinating parallel to Hector, because most of his understanding of the world came through the lens OF pets. He understood pets, and he agreed with Dracula's plan because he believed the last of the humans would essentially be caged animals.
And here comes Lenore, showing him what it's like to BE a caged pet. Because SHE has a similar thought process to Hector; she can respect pets, even come to love them. But her immortal psychology is alien, and humans are just a prey animal to her. In a twisted way, this is how Lenora and Hector come to understand each other; their interactions with the world and how they perceive it are strikingly similar: through a lens of subservience and ownership.
@@tgr3423 it's this dichotomy between them that actually makes me hate how they handled their relationship in S4.
Lenore making Hector into her pet should've been the catalyst for Hector to understand just how incorrect his old viewpoint was. It would've shown him how inhumane what he wanted to do other humans was, and it should've helped to make him understand Humans, and Vampires should be viewed individually as opposed to collectively in the way he had before.
@@tgr3423 I think that she walked into the sun because she viewed herself as being reduced to a "pet". To basically the same status as a human. And she couldn't live like that. Which could mean that, while she had affection for Hector, she absolutely did not see him as a equal.
@@seanwilliams7655 No, her earlier conversation is more about feeling like she would inescapably become like Carmilla, that her vampire nature would inevitably twist the desire for strength, power with purpose, to a hunger for power for its own sake and she didn't want to become that. As a diplomat she prided herself on being 'fair', on creating win/win situations.
Some people have pointed it in other video, but one thing to note about Lenore, is that instead of watching the sun she never saw for hundreds of years before her demised, she chose to look at Hector instead. Her final word is her teasing him, but in a way, she is saying 'you are more beautiful than the sun, silly man'. So to me it proof she really cared for him, at least in the end.
Never saw that one point but damn, that hits really hard. When first seeing Lenore through S3, I thought I was going to like her. End of the season flipped me on my head and I started hating her because of her actions. When S4 came out, I was in between because of her actions again. Seriously, good points were made.
@@sapphirejade5029This is why the character is really interesting 👀
Hmm, don’t know, sounds like a cop out. If she really cared, she would have stayed with him instead of killing herself and hurting him one last time.
@@Amadeo790 Then he wouldn't have learned his lesson of learning to let go of unnatural undead things and he wouldn't be a "silly man" but remain the "beaten boy who had his woodland creatures taken from him".
He literally just showed her how her nature will eventually be like Carmilla's and become obsessed with power when she spent the entire S4 season decrying war and power. She is cursed and wanted to end her curse, while Hector immortalizes her in a book, something much more healthy than some parasitic form
@@Amadeo790 dont think thats fair. Her decision wasnt made based on him, was on her own opinion. She said it herself, she wasnt going to be living as a prisoner again
Basically, she was aware of what had some to Hector and was never willing to go through it herself
But that was her own decision independant of hector
love how georgia is steady upgrading her vampire cosplay with each character
heheh Lenore was a fun one to cosplay she has quite the look
I look forward to the day she ties her hair in front of her face to do her analysis of Godbrand.
@@richardwarnercool1 "GODBRAAAND!" -Godbrand
@@SwordTune the entire video is just 10 seconds long, it's Georgia screaming "Godbrand!" and then saying in her normal voice "So that sums up Godbrand."
@@GeorgiaDow I'm a sucker for fangs
The way the four women vampires were written is directly like the Quaternary. The four personalities (Queen, Sorceress, Lover, Amazon) of the vampires are, in theory, sub personalities of all of us, thus making each vampire relatable.
Did not know that thanks for sharing
isn't that from the "King, warrior, lover and mage" book? I've heard thats more in line with masculine phsycology in specific that a more human generization.
@@Nightmare704RY it is, the original theory makes some differences when applied to women, but it is still the same general concept.
@@dougmartin2007 yeah I remember listening to the original book, had to stop to abosrb the concepts, a bit to heavy for me all at once XD
I found this womens personality spectrum awfully limited and too Dark Triad-friendly.
Hector and Lenore's relationship shows just how unique and interesting the dynamic between humans and vampires is. To vampires, humans are below in the food chain. Either they feed upon them, or they keep them as pets. But they're also conscious free-thinking beings they have the potential to fall in love with and, most importantly, mate. So it's a constant struggle between the predator side and the mate side.
Lisa and Dracula's relationship worked because, like Georgia Dow said in another video, she turned him into a human, and it's she gave him and not forced upon him. Even after her death, Dracula's genocide was born out of a human need for vengeance.
Hector and Lenore tried to love each other as human and vampire and failed catastrophically because you can't half love someone while the other half wants to either eat you or turn you into a pet, or in Hector's case have that other half be a primal fear and mistrust of the predator. There was love there, as messy and misguided as it might have been, just not enough to have a sustainable relationship.
I think you described it perfectly! That's why when Lenore decided to die she could finally see Hector with human eyes, in the sunlight like a human herself
I personally wish they didn’t write Lenore out, because they would have been a unique, inverse of Dracula and Lisa
This is perfect and would've been so interesting to play out. What's even more depressing to consider is this take I read from someone else that albeit Lenore being a vampire, in comparison to her sisters or simply in general, she was far more inclined to humanity, she was far more human but she possibly was afraid or was dissuaded by it because she was a vampire, and her humanity hasn't garnered her much from her vampirical peers. I genuinely believe that in another life, should they have met in different circumstances, both humans, they would've been perfect because it wasn't who they were that were the problem, but what they were which you've pointed out very well. Though, may just be me considering I've read a couple of au fics on them.
Although she certainly didn't see him as an equal- she was willing to cage him, but not have that dynamic reversed- she was 100% honest when calling him pretty. She's dying, has her lifetime opportunity to see the sunrise, and decides to WATCH HIM INSTEAD.
On the other hand as she sees the sun she asks him "that's it?". Assuming she was being genuine, that shows how little she has changed, and refuses to lower herself to appreciate or at least not belittle what thise she considers lesser beings like.
@@edoardoprevelato6577Or perhaps the sunrise is no match for what she sees in Hector and thus, chooses to look at him in her final moments.
The sun isn't exactly appealing to vampires in general
That's an emotional/ nearly thoughtless decision, not evidence of love, or care.
If you were about to die, what would you rather your last sight be, something amazing you've never seen before, or one last look at your dog? I'd choose my dog.
In most media, vampires are characterized as pathologically obsessive AND disregarding of human emotions since they are lower on the foodchain.
Lenore at least starts out like that. Her kindness is not for Hector's sake, but for her own, to tell herself she was being kind.
I don't see how most media would mean Castlevania as well.
I don't believe so. She was being kind and she did do a lot of think for Hector's sake but she didn't see him as equal to her. She justified his subjugation because he is not capable of the same autony as her. She treated him like a dog who needed proper training
She was both born and spent her early life as a human. I think she retained more of her humanity than many of the other vampires. Maybe her interactions with Hector rekindled something in her that lay dormant for centuries?
if predators wore to sympathise with there pray they would starve
@@FriendlyGhost-rf7tq in the case of most depictions of vampires in various media, feeding isn't necessarely lethal.
All the characters in Castlevania feel very real because they are imperfect. Lenore loves Hector as much as she can, viewing him as food and cattle. Her peers are disgusted by her relationship with him, Carmilla calls it out early. Hector genuinely cares for her, but he treats her the way she treats him, and discovers she can't handle that. She can't handle being kept like a pet, in a gilded cage, even though that is what she wanted to for Hector.
Also, Hector was just biding his time until he could turn the tables. They are both really awful genocidal people, who are also clever and curious. They met in the middle while Lenore wasn't needed by her sisters, and while his forging was part of their plans. Under different circumstances, they probably would have never even spoken. Loving the analysis, and you make a great Lenore cosplay.
There's such a peculiar and bitter irony to Hector living through the thing he thought was mercy... And Carmilla and Lenore insisting on contracts made without the consent of the other party, dehumanizing someone utterly in order to produce workforce and soldiers; the sort of thing that they rebelled against.
I don't think Lenore was incapable of loving someone, anymore than Hector would be. But neither was in the time they spent together ready for it, or in a great position to offer it or receive it. It's a tragedy that she couldn't imagine a future for herself (though escaping the forgemasters would have been entirely reasonable imo; like we the audience know Isaac has grown into his own man and a decent one at that, but Lenore has no way to be certain of this, much less a way to break through Hector's 'keep this person like a pet' thing than he had a way to break through hers).
I’d really like to see the psychological aspects surrounding Camilla. She was such a powerful manipulative and regal character and even in the end her pride was something she wouldn’t part with.
I'm just saying Lenore's tricks would have me hook line and sinker
Down horrendous lol but same
I'm pretty sure that more could have been revealed for her backstory. Her experience with war does a lot to tell us her disposition towards violence and how she prefers to conduct herself. But how she is only capable of giving love and affection from a position as the controller and manipulator makes me think that was the only type relationship she experienced before becoming a vampire.
I like to think that under the primal emotions and instincts Vampires display, they still retain the individual traits of before they were turned.
Lenore doesn't deserve the sympathy of a tragic villain nor does she deserve the simping that some do for her, but she is at least a decent character to examine when around Hector. I honestly think the two things that stopped them from being a relatively decent couple is the war and the difference in species.
Hector loves animals, as does Lenore. Hector is caring, kind, can be pushed around to a fault. Lenore is caring, in her own way (diplomacy over war and all that) I wouldn't say kind in the way Hector was, but she did have some attachments.
I think this is where they connect. They want to protect things, but whereas Hector wants to nurture, Lenore wants to keep things static.
She and her sisters even say as such before Carmilla goes all mad with power.
Lenore is a scared war orphan locked away in a eternally youthful body.
Hector is a scared young boy given powers to utilize Hell itself like an armory.
This war is something she doesn't want and honestly I feel Hector really didn't want either, it was just Dracula handed him a "good" plan at the time.
If they were both human or both Vampire, I could honestly see them trying some form of a relationship. However with Lenore's upbringing about Vampires versus Humans, where the former see the other as cattle or animals; she did the best thing she could for him in her mind: make him a pet.
Is it manipulative? Yes. However she couldn't just make him an equal, be it by vampire culture or her own mentality, humans just aren't up there to her.
Which leads to the ending, now she's going to be caged by the very pet she obtained. Her sisters are scattered to the winds or dead, she has no support base, she doesn't have a skill set because who would want to engage in diplomacy with a Vampire now? The scared war orphan decides now is the time to end it. Though sad, it's inevitable, it is also telling that her last visage was that of Hector. I think mainly due to the fact that out of everything crumbling down in her life, he was the one thing she could at least consider something she loved or cared for in her own way.
I did like Lenore, she wasn't evil like carmilla
Dracula and Lisa lived happily and they were a vampire and a human, why couldn't just happened something similar with Lenore and Hector ?
@@delfinangel96 Simple, Dracula didn't go into this relationship with Lisa like he's adopting a pet. She stood her ground, he liked that, he respected her, he loved her.
Lenore did none of this for Hector at the beginning. The first steps you take in approaching a relationship really do tell others how you'll see them. Dracula found a companion, Lenore found a tool.
Lenore likes to live in the present where she knows what to do, that’s why she ended her life in the end of the season because she’s afraid of the future. I like to think that Lenore and her sisters are represents “Time” Camala thinks about the past, Lenore thinks about the present and the other two think about the future but it just my opinion 🤔
The two who thought about the future managed to survive while the other two died, so that's pretty insightful.
Agree
Oooh! I really like this angle!
She "ended" her life because the new writers of the Styria arc in season 4 hated her and the Sisters and wanted her gone.
Glad I’m not the only one who actually likes their dynamic… and Lenore in general.
Looking forward to seeing if we get a "Striga and Morana" episode. I absolutely love their relationship and how they support eachother.
Imagine a cosplay that is like a piece or two of Striga's armour over Morana's dress. Or Morana's dress and attempting to carry Striga's buster sword.
@@richardwarnercool1
Cute! ... And now I'm picturing the two of them in eachother's style of clothes. Very cute.
"Get in the trunk, love."
I do believe Lenore legitimately cared for Hector, though I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say she actually loved him.
He was essentially a pet to her.
It is funny and ironic that he, in his own simple manner, managed to turn everything around on her later.
She ends up more or less just as she had kept him, like a bird in a cage confined within the castle.
And it's telling that she is unable to cope with this state of being in the end.
And unlike her, he freely releases her.
I find Hector to be probably the most "everyman" of anyone in the show.
He's very simple, and not overly complicated.
To both his merit and fault.
It's this simplicity that allowed him to live in captivity for so long.
He hated it, but honestly was he really going to fare better in the world in which they live outside the castle?
It's a conversation he and Lenore actually have very early in their meeting.
He admits he'd not do well outside, lol.
What Lenore did to him was reprehensible.
Don't get me wrong.
But in the state of his captivity he still had it better than most of the common folk outside.
The whole argument of "being a fat cat in a large house" lol.
She also does come to treat him better as time moves along.
It's a very mixed bag.
Which is what the writers wanted.
They knew what they were doing.
They wanted the situation to be complicated and on some levels sympathetic.
It's that which makes the series very compelling.
The characters are very real.
Hector in a lot of ways comes down to what are we willing to live with?
We all have shackles we allow ourselves to wear.
Compromises we make for the sake of comfort, convenience, and frankly dealing with those around us.
And all of our tolerances are different.
ummm...ya, I kind of agree, which is, I think, what the whole "Stockholm Syndrome" concept comes down to...our minds try to adjust to deal with whatever situation we are in (sorry if I am misinterpreting what you meant); we mentally adjust to our circumstances, so that we are able to cope, even if it is, objectively, a "bad situation"...and yes, I do think she partially cared for him...what's the saying? "all lies have a bit of truth?" or something like that....that's how the whole thing works...
Correction: The writers of season 3 knew what they were doing. The writers in season 4 just took away everything from Lenore and the sisters, destroyed their characters and their arc completely. It was so drastic I seriously considered the possibility of them intentionally destroying the Sisters characters out of spite for their original writer. Like "Oooh, nice vampire characters you have there, now watch my Isaac stomp them into the dirt, bia***!"
Had Lenore and Hector met at say, a War Council in Dracula's keep, I feel as if she would have made a more genuine approach. To me, Lenore always seemed curious about Hector and while her very nature is that of reading people and deciphering what they want, she struggled outright with Hector. He is a hard read, but they share empathic nature. Had the War Arc gone on longer and involved Lenore, I easily could see a more natural affection forming between them.
The plot is disjointed in that. It's baffling that Lenore was not sent to Vlad's castle since she is the diplomat and probably would have been important in rallying deals with the other vampires.
@@Suijen86 Yea, as much as I like Lenore, I kind of feel like she was rather unnecessary to the plot. Prior to Carmilla’s sudden character shift, she showed she was fully capable of being charismatic, being manipulative, swallowing her pride to feign diplomacy, etc.
They could have very easily had Carmilla continue playing games with Hector. Instead, they completely dropped all of her subtlety and nuance, in order to make room for Lenore.
Alternatively, Carmilla suddenly showing her “true face” could have been the major character development moment that prepares Hector for dealing with Lenore, but nah. They made Hector a simp instead.
@@theguileraven7014 I feel like it could have been convincing to have Carmilla play all four of the sisters' roles but I have a feeling Ellis wanted them to be different people and represent different elements.
@@Suijen86 True, they really did simplify Carmilla down a lot, in order to make room for the sisters. lol
I think Lenore could have worked better, had Hector turned the tables on her during the ring scene. That would have showed that he learned from his experience with Carmilla and is fully capable playing Lenore’s games as an equal. Then they wouldn’t have had to completely reset their relationship dynamics in the following season, as they would have already laid the groundwork for him potentially winning Lenore’s respect.
Imagine if the next season, she was bound to him, but had to pretend she was the one in control for her sisters, while being forced to help Hector completely sabotage their efforts.
@@theguileraven7014 I think it would have made more sense for Hector to convince Lenore that Carmilla's conquest isn't what Lenore wants like in S4 and she can figure out a way with Morana and Striga to outvote Carmilla.
Manipulators do love, just they have the unfortunate need to always be in control, and this control hurts both themselves and the ones they do love.
She definitely would have had me with those puns. I also think that at the end Lenore and Hector truly cared for one another at the end.
That burst of violence at the beginning was a great interaction that IMHO deserves some analysis on it's own. Hector attacks Lenore hoping to gain a way out. What made this possible in his head is the cage itself. He tried to hurt her with the bars of the cage, then pulled her to the bars and planed to keep her there, until he gets out. The way Lenore reacted was not by simply geting out of his reach, but to physically go inside the cage and to attack back.
This is a tit-for-tat strategy. This is something that exists in psychology, but there's also a mathematical background of it. There's a part of mathematics called game theory, with the famous prisoner's dilemma being one demonstration of what a game is. There are at least two actors, each with a set of goals, and a utility score that earns them. Depending on the game, these utility scores might be zero sum - so if I win some, you lose some and vice versa. If you play a zero sum game only once you'll often find that the best strategy you can have has the worst outcome. (Like in the prisoner's dilemma - we both choose to talk with the police, we both get sentenced.) If you are allowed to repeat the game n times, and you'll take the sum of all game scores as the outcome, then you'll need to make your opponent collaborate. The most rational way to do this, is to collaborate at first, and see what the other player does. If they defect, you defect in the next round too, and then you cooperate in the third round. This way you can condition your partner to always cooperate, even if you have no other way to talk.
Lenore started with kindness. Hector attacked. Lenore responded to the attack with a show of force. She actually showed Hector, that cage isn't just there to hold him. It is also his defense. As long as the cat is outside the cage, the mouse is safe. The next time they talk, Lenore sits in front of the cage again. She gives him space and starts with cooperation. He has a choice to make - defect or cooperate? He'll want to keep her outside the cage. It is beneficial for both of them to keep the bar between them. Cooperation is the way he can achieve this.
And this cooperation is already a small cognitive commitment. This is something she can leverage upon in the coming discussion.
If Lenore wouldn't have attack back, the message wouldn't have had been this clear to him.
I really liked this video. Lenore is one of my favorite characters in the show.
I think it's also important for people to realize that Lenore isn't weak and that she consciously chooses diplomacy despite her strength, because vampires like Ratko think diplomacy is weakness. Seriously doubt Hector would have tried the same with Striga.
I literally just finished rewatching this series lastnight. Lenore was such a great character.
Yeah, I agree with ya. Everyone else is saying she was trash. I'm not the only one who ended up in the middle and somewhat liked her.😊
@Sapphire Jade yeah I didn't think she was trash at all. She explained it very well when she said Vampires had to look out long term...they don't just bump into things for 60 years and call it a life. She did what she had to do and was mostly kind along the way.
@@collincutler4992 EXACTLY! I still don't understand why people HATE her. She was well played out.
@@sapphirejade5029 I imagine that it's easy to hate her if you've been a victim of manipulation or condescending control, and see it in her actions. As a character we're watching from a distance, though, I agree that she's fascinating.
She defeats Hector by giving him everything he told her he wanted. Humans in cages, his own house, comfort, Dracula's work, etc.
The first time I saw Lenore I was already intrigued and was soaking up every second of screentime
I felt really sad shen she decided to die
You brought me into this show, Georgia and now youtube keeps recommending me Castlevania clips.
I haven't watched it on Netflix but I did basically watch every key moment here on youtube instead :D
I hope you had fun going through them = )
I was hoping on some nuance on how completely acceptant Lenore was of death. This was the most graceful, calm death in the entirity of the show. She was so peaceful and seemed with no regrets.
Hector and his lost Lenore? Hector loved Lenore, of that I've no doubt. When the only practical way to keep her alive was to keep her captive, she preferred death. And Hector, though he tried to talk her out of it, loved her enough to respect her choice. Did Lenore love Hector? Tougher question. In a condescending, patronizing, controlling, unhealthy way; yes, I think. She respected and admired his intellect, and found him attractive; but also knew that setting him free would be his death. She knew he'd have preferred to die on his own terms, which is why she never set him free. At first it was mostly manipulation, then she made him a beloved pet, but I don't think she truly respected him as a person until she realized Carmilla had lied to her, and he pointed out that they were not so different. She was in a partnership with her "Vampire Sisters", but was she really more to them than a pet? What did she actually gain out of any of this? And by the time she developed any actual respect for him, it was far, far too late to do anything about honoring his wishes. Almost makes me want to go back to Arcane and listen to Sting singing about "What Could Have Been".
Also, Georgia, seems you've just about mastered talking with those prosthetic fangs in. Maybe you can dissect the characters in Beastars? Some of those characters would easily let you flex some cosplay and wear your fangs again.
"She knew he'd have preferred to die on his own terms..." No. This is objectively wrong. Hector could have killed himself at any time but didn't. He could have taken his chances and fled at any time and didn't. He knew he'd probably die if he fled, he even said as much to Lenore, but still could have made the attempt, especially if he'd have rather be dead than a captive. Yet he did no such thing. When presented with the choice of captivity or death Hector chose captivity and Lenore choose death.
@@TheRealRightPrice You actually have a point. The ring prevents him from hurting the sisters, transfers loyalty of the creatures, makes him unable to take the ring off, and also makes him unable to run away. It says nothing about suicide.
@@Suijen86 I don't recall that the ring prevented him from simply running away, more that he just didn't think he would survive long on his own if he fled, which is something he said to Lenore in season three when she asked where he'd even go if she freed him. As far as we know all it did was extend command and control (his words) of the night creatures from himself to the four of them, making the creatures follow their orders as if they came from Hector himself, which is why he couldn't order them to stand down from fighting Issac while he still had the ring on, and presumably why he couldn't order the creatures to attack them either. Aside from that the only other thing it for sure did was prevent him from taking it off. It didn't force him to follow their orders, didn't prevent him from turning on them, didn't stop him from capturing one of them and might but have even prevented him from killing her if he'd wanted to, and it didn't stop him from committing acts of self harm, which is how he ultimately got around the anti-removal part. So yeah, he absolutely could have offed himself if he really would have preferred death, which he didn't do, therefore he didn't really want to.
@@TheRealRightPrice It was one of the three conditions for it to activate. "If he tries to harm us or take it off or run away, the ring will cause him so much harm"... but you're right it doesn't force him to do anything, but instead allows him to bargain. After Carmilla dies, he chooses to remain with Lenore so he said he wants to run away but he doesn't actually want to. He just wants Lenore
@@Suijen86 Ah thanks, I didn't remember that line.
Are you going to do a part 2 for Isaac’s story? I genuinely think he’s the best character in the show for how clean his character growth is.
Agreed.
Definitely agree with that one, too. Isaac has matured a LOT compared to his video game/OG version. Would absolutely love that part 2.😁
I personally just really hate Lenore, though I do think that speaks to her being such a good character. She's manipulative in a way that's really understated in some ways, which makes her evil intent trickier for someone like Hector to spot out and understand. She gave me the ick, but I think you did a good job analyzing her.
All I need to see is one sufficiently manipulative or dehumanizing action and I put a person into the "extremely dangerous for me" category.
@@Pensnmusic Tbh I am unsure what your comment means. I agree with you, but abusers can often disguise their dehumanizing actions as a kindness, which can make victims more prone to fall for it and not see it for what it is.
I think it'd be great to do a video on Carmilla, how her domineering, charismatic yet hateful and increasingly unhinged character influenced everyone around her.
I also think the way the writers utilised her hatred, especially her misandry was also very well done. She treats humans as quaint pets or tools to use, but also treats male vampires as arrogant morons who deserve only to be trampled on. Even Dracula didn't escape her contempt.
I think that Lenore thought it was deep and genuine up until Hector told Isaac that Lenore would stay safe with him. Maybe I'm reading into it, but to me her face showed a realization of what she'd done to Hector, that by entrapping and enslaving him the relationship could never be "real". I also get the impression that they'd spent some time (like a week or two) living like that, that maybe she thought it could work and then she realized the full weight and gravity of what she'd done to Hector
In a way, they're very much alike. They both have the potential for a deep level of empathy, but it's undeveloped or tempered by their experiences. If things had been different... But it wasn't, and so it's a tragedy.
If they had been able to meet in the middle, and been able to say 'let's go, leave this behind us, and travel and live as people do', I think they could have been able to make a new beginning for themselves. But neither had the experience to see that as an option. In vampiric culture, being something lesser is unthinkable. As for Hector, he didn't have the opportunity to really live that way in the first place.
There was one scene that cemented in my mind that Hector and Lenore saw each other for who they were, at least mostly; and that was when Hector captured her in that cage. That cunning, the intricacies of his plan that involved blackmailing and the forethought to create an escape route, it all to me indicates someone who may have feelings for someone but isn't necessarily blinded by them, nor is he dismissive of the power and danger she presents. I believe that war and times of immense tragedy like what they were in can have an interesting and eccentric effect on relationship dynamics, such as, like in this case, seeing beauty and finding connection in someone with whom you are technically an adversary, but it may also demonstrate, in a sense, even from a fictitious standpoint, how human beings' reactions to each other can be multifaceted, even contrarily so. While I *do* believe that the dynamic between them, were it further explored, would reveal issues that might paint their relationship as fatally doomed as opposed to divinely ordained, I also feel that ultimately, there is a love there, if not borne from romance, is rooted in unprecedented mutual understanding that had the potential inspire the envy of even the closest of couples.
This series and your videos are fantastic, very helpful in my thought process and day to day. Enjoying CASTLEVANIA even more.
Absolutely! I can't wait to see more of the content come out. Betting Nocturne will come out this year, but I don't know because of the WSA strike going on. I hope to see more breakdowns of each character. Sypha and Trevor are faves for me.😂
Awesome video, isn't it strange that us as the audience, go through some of the ups and downs with hector & in the end probably mixed feelings about Lenore.
Well thanks georgia, your video are always thought provoking & entertaining a reprieve from the grind.
Ps, the cosplay fur coat looks
comfy & and same with the teeth ;)
thanks Grimm it was a lot of fun
I've been looking forward to you looking at Hector and Lenore. As someone who was previously in a relationship with a highly manipulative partner (who also happened to be small and redheaded) I found myself highly drawn to yet, appalled by Lenore
In a sense, Lenore's conversations with Hector (during his incarceration) were almost like therapy sessions. How much of Lenore's motivation was altruistic is debatable. But regardless of her intentions, Hector opened his mind to see how things were. He realized his arrogance and naivete got the best of him. Lenore might have learned some things from Hector, too.
I know I'm late to comment on this, but I finished Castlevania not too long ago, and my take on Hector and Lenore is that their love for each other was truly genuine. Even though I think their love was true, I also think it could have been much deeper. They're time together was limited and constrained, but like Georgia said, maybe in another time. Had they met under different circumstances, I think they're common interest in caring for pets could've made them see each other as equals. I like to think that they could've had a farm or ranch with a bunch of different animals.
I would like to add the the narrative a perspective of time. If I recall, Lenore was at least 300 years as vampire against Hector's 20-30 whatever. When I was watching the show, I kept getting this sense of endearment from her, as he can't really be her equal in any way. She even describes humans as bumping into things, so that just make sense that she ultimately was wiser than him and aware of her peers. For the lack of better words, she created an environment for him - a lesser creature among vampires - in which he could survive and be comfortable within his circumstances. And her refusing to go on like that is simply leaving the world to younger humans, as she saw her time and world end.
Shouldn't we think of cases of abused children who grow to defend abusive parents as a case of stockolm syndrome?
It depends on whether age/brain development plays a part, I think. Does stockholm symdrome depend on fully formed brains or not
It’s also wildly debated if SS is a phenomena of the captive to captor, OR captor to captive, or if it’s even legitimate (since the term was coined under dubious circumstances and more or less discredited)
For me i see, the relationship was manipulative at first, Lenore doing this just because of Camilla's plan and that's all. Making sure that Camilla got what she wanted.
Their relationshio slowly became love though, it's was proven that instead of caring for Camilla's safety, Lenore went for Hector first and propose the idea of them escaping together, leave this hell and let Camilla suffer her own consequence alone. Second is that, she looked at Hector instead of the sun, he was her sun and not the one that is rising up in the sky right now, even teasing him like usual before her death
I think it’s really important to emphasize that Stockholm syndrome is not a legitimate diagnosis as there are no real criteria for it and is not in any diagnostic manual due to to lack of research and researchers not agreeing on what Stockholm actually is. Plus the psychiatrist that coin the term Stockholms syndrome, who worked with the police during the Norrmalmstorg drama never actually even spoke to the women held hostage. He called them unreasonable and refused to listen to their perspective and opinions of the situation. It’s also worth noting that he only “ diagnosed” the women after they publicly criticized his and the police’s actions during the whole ordeal… so there’s that.
I like the fangs and the costume, Georgina
lenore and hector is tricky. because i think if she hadn't put that ring on hector he'd have genuinely been loyal to her, which i think that caused him to snap out of what was happening and turn on her. that said though i do think he developed affection towards her, but more as a friend rather than someone he felt deeply for thanks to her betrayal.
as for her, i think... i want to say given enough time she would gain genuine affection for hector, but because she's been playing the role of superior and vampire so long such a thing would be difficult for her. after all you don't see her with a partner wether vampire or human even being that close to any of her sisters. i think a part of her seems broken and it probably happened before her vamporism. though it could have been during similar to what happened to carmilla. but that damage is part of the human element and not vampire i believe.
but i think hector genuinely seeing her as a person and not just a monster was getting to her but it needed more time and hector was closing a part of himself off after her betrayal so it made things harder for both. it is her fault for how she played things. but that said she also gave him a lot more freedoms after the betrayal, things she needn't have done after putting the ring on, so she does hold to her word and does have some kind of affection towards him. how far it goes is more the question.
that's why as compared to dracula with his love, the connection with lenore and hector is a lot more complicated. it isn't as simple as both are deeply in love, but i do think they feel some kind of love for one another. as hector too didn't need to protect her. he could have left her to die, but it is a question is it stockholm or someone he was starting to feel for? and with him being more childlike in personality that adds to the questions and complexities here, of what may have developed.
The way Hector and Lenore reflect the same ideas of 'love' at each other is interesting - both aren't really capable of empathy for others on the level of themselves, but are capable of expressing it in the fashion of a pet. Hector's entire worldview is about humans as animals who can't know better and oughtn't be blamed but must be controlled, it's his justification for following Dracula. And when his experience with vampires proves they are not higher beings at all, he quickly reclassifies them as some sort of pet. Lenore sees him in a similar way, though in her case because he is slower, weaker, more fragile and of a prey class. Being temporarily held as a pet and escaping by playing along teaches Hector what that is like, but in the end when he is freed and captures Lenore, he still can't view another being as more than a very special and prized pet.
I think that's part of what drives Lenore to sun-kill herself at the end. She knows that they can't have a relationship as equals, that so long as they're both alive they will - willingly or not - each forever be trying to reduce the other to the pet. She can't let herself be reduced to that, and won't do that to him, so the clearest way out is the sunrise.
I do like how asymmetrical the "love" was between the two of them. I mean, vampires live long enough to see generations born and die and I feel like the writers really showed how even the most empathetic of vampires really can't easily pick back up the value of human life. So the best a vampire can do for a human would be uneven, would be ownership, would be loving them as a lesser thing.
One thing with Hector is that he always saw other people beneath him just as tools to create his creatures or just as livestock, still things he cared for in some way, and now the whole situation is reversed.
Now he is in the position of the pet.
Isn't keeping humans like himself in humane cages what he always wanted?
Georgia you're best! I'm surprised you kept the fangs throughout the video.
This relationship from Castlevania was very intriguing to me, with Lenore's manipulation and Hector's imprisonment. Mistaking kindness for weakness is dangerous.
I do agree that these two came off as Super Feelers. That was a good way to put it. They both ended up being karmic with each other. Keeping each other safe in dire situations. Even if there was a relationship of master and pet between Lenore and Hector to a certain agree, there is also a level of care and affection between a human and a dog for example. Even though Lenore is Manipulatively Captivating, I admit I'd fall for that Vampiric Charm. Perhaps in another realm and in different circumstances... their endings would be optimistically different
Thanks heheh i had to = )) after my first failed attempt at fangs. I do lisp quite a lot though. Yes it is a really interesting dynamic
I think they did love each other in the end but they're so used to manipulation that they assumed one was manipulating the other.
Hector’s emotions felt so genuine. Also Lenore stole the show every scene she was in
I found it interesting how the inmate, or in this case Hector, is usually the manipulator. In prison the first thing they teach guards is to beware an inmate becoming your 'friend'. However it's Lenore who played him. I loved that twist.
I do believe that at first she did see him as a pet, but toward the end they did have affection. A part that I wished was touched on was their discussion on the nature of Vampires. Part of the reasons he does it was that he said her nature could not change. Which literally goes against the entire show. So I do believe that Hector kinda pushed her to her death because of it, and if he didn't she may have chosen to stay with him. I wasn't sure if he had stockholm syndrome till this video, but I do believe he did. It was just mixed as you said.
Not gonna lie, I absolutely hated Lenore because such manipulators, who honestly believe themselves to be kind and nice, but in reality are sadistic and vile, just turn my stomach. So I did enjoy Hector's triumph over her - and even more, I really grew to respect him for not sliding to her level, for choosing to treat her like a human would treat a human, rather than like a monster treats a pet. And I'm glad she killed herself. She didn't have a purpose anymore because she didn't have anyone to manipulate anymore - what she calls "diplomacy", but of course it has nothing to do with diplomacy. She managed to think better of herself than even her "sisters" and she paid the price for her infantile pride. She is a great character, very well written, and her introduction really allowed Hector to shine when before he was overshadowed by much more impressive characters. Great analysis, as always.
Jesus christ dude
i agree with you, lenore is hot but shes vile. hector was nothing but a pet to her..
The power dynamic definitely shifts, over time, much like a human and a pet. First it's Master/Pet, then Parent/Child, finally Friend/Friend.
I don’t like how you portray the “intimate scene” between Lenore and Hector. Definitely on a second watch through, that scene between Lenore and Hector was at the very least approaching r***. Hector has quite simply been kidnapped and put in a cage from which he cannot consent. He is obviously coerced into intimacy. Lenore is not only physically more powerful than Hector but also has almost absolute control over him (even before the ring). Short of killing him, as one of the leaders of the castle she can do pretty much whatever she wants to him. Restrict his food and water, possible torture are all options for Hector if he does not comply to Lenore’s wishes.
I was really hoping you'd make a video about Hector and lenore!
I recently rewatched the ending of Castlevania and my big take away was that Lenore trapped hector without a second thought and was happy to use him. But when she was trapped with Hector she almost immediately killed herself. There was never going to be a world where they had a healthy and equal relationship
I truly feel like under different circumstances they would be absolutely perfect for each other
Oh my sweet God, THANK YOU SO MUCH!! I've been scouting over the internet looking for something like this for the past few months❤
I'm sorry but season 4 completely ignores the abuse and manipulation that Hector went through and made his relationship with Lenore a cutesy lovey thing for some reason, and I think that's pretty disgusting. any "care" that she has for Hector seems out of character from her season 3 self to me
Even if she did actually love him, Lenore, like her "sisters", is a cruel, manipulative, murderous, abusive monster
Wow, didn't expect this video so quickly, but I was definitely looking forward to it, since Hectors and Lenores relationship is probably the most complex in this series and it actually affected me the most while watching and is still affecting me now.
It's crazy how I feel exactly the same about Hector and Lenores relationship. It might have started out as Lenore just wanting to help her sisters, but it developed into so much more and deeper, in the end showing genuine affection and care towards each other. It might not have been true love (although I'd like to think that), or at least none that is reciprocated from both parties, but it was very close to it and you could feel that the potential for true love at least was there. I really wished that, if some of the circumstances were different, Hector and Lenore could have been living happily ever after, which makes her decision to just vanish from this earth all the more tragic to me. But in the end I enjoyed the moments they shared together, the good and the bad and I can apreciate the bittersweetness of it all.
One thing I think about that shows how genuine Lenore cares and perhaps loves Hector is when she had the opportunity to see the Sun one final time… she chooses to have Hector be the last thing she see. She turns to him and instead of calling him a pretty boy she calls him a silly man… because Hector has become in a sense her equal with opposing ideas that are silly to her, but endearing I’m sure to a sense. She did enjoy talking to him for some reason. There’s respect there with playful teasing.
How he ended up attached to her in this situation might have been circumstance, but seeing what happens between them, and the fact that Lenore does have a softer side that seems to want to understand, there is a chance even if they had met differently they would have eventually grown to enjoy each other's company.
THANK you for speaking to them in such an open honest manner without it sounding hateful or disgusted. Obviously you're a therapist so there shouldn't be a bias shown, but I really appreciate your break down of these two because I love them so much, the good and the bad.
Am I the only one who would love to see a video on Carmilla?
I kinda realized that Lenore treats Hector how a lot of older, sexist men treat "their" women. Possession. Sub-human (or lesser human). Entertainment. To be used, guided, treated as a pet. To satisfy their ego.
Aww those damn “super feelers” 💔
Thanks for the video. 🖤
Rip Lenore
I just finished watching this series and I really need to hear what a therapist's perspective of this kind of relationship. The kind of love that revolves around deceit, manipulation, and cages. You can totally see that there is love and innocence in them both its just if they had different circumstances things wouldn't be this complicated and wrong and tragic.
Hector at the end gave freedom of choice to Leonore, even knowing he will lose her, something she didn’t for him in the first place. That’s the difference, Leonore couldn’t overcame her nature, she didn’t want to sacrifice anything and freedom was her most valuable thing, more than Hector, and she explained perfectly before he killed herself, vampires don’t like changes, it’s part of being inmortal beings. The complete opposite than humans that has almost the need to adapt themselves constantly because their existences are constantly changing.
I would say that the two are largely experiencing a curiosity about how their species COULD interact.
Hector can envision a world dominated completely by vampires when he is taken and subsequently abused. He accepts all of the ways that Lenore treats him in different circumstances and changes tactics accordingly. He is shown violence, so he uses violence. He is shown kindness and utilizes kindness. Lenore shares a bit of lust and he is into it, curious and inquisitive as ever.
Lenore, I suspect, wants to see what it is like to have a person, HER person, as far as her capacity for affection can take her. She has a direct set of expectations for Hector to be their forgemaster, but as a person, she wonders what it is like to be so emotionally entangled with somebody for the sheer delight of... being entangled with them.
I'm loving the getup. Also enjoyed the examination of a complex character like Lenore. Her and Hector were some of the more fascinating standouts of the later half of the show.
Their dynamic was great and it was fun and bittersweet watching them grow as characters.
I love Lenore. She's a rose. Beautiful, gentle and has the ability to hurt you if she wants.
I feel like everyone got a happy ending in S4 of Castlevania except Hector & Lenore. I get why they ended it this way but it still hit me hard seeing Lenore die instead of being with Hector.
Lenore is my favorite she is so cute. Her fate makes me cry every single rewatch 😢
For your comments, I think by not going to her scarf; he was letting her go.
Glad people are still talking about this masterpiece.
In another time, another place, with a proper discussion of limits and safewords, they could be a beautiful couple.
Finally. Been waiting for this episode.
Lenore is a monster and this video feels incredibly weird. What she does to Hector is like a romanticized version of what interragators at Guantanamo Bay did to torture inmates. Pretending to be a sympathetic face to get on their good side an then brutally torturing and punishing them for disobeying. This is abuse and I didn't know people treated the relationship as any kind of wholesome. The fact she developed a crush on her prisoner does not change that
Finally someone not simping over her
She is a full on monster, an abuser
I loved their last discussion about change, the virtue of continuity, and the distinction between strength and power. I believe you can perceive how they have grown closer during that conversation. And during the last moment of Lenore you can feel they were not in love just close.
The thought occurs that Lenore seriously misjudged. I think if she hadn't made him a mystical slave, he actually would have been loyal. This is Hector we're talking about.
Loyal to Lenore. Not to Carmilla, and Carmilla wouldn't trust him without that ring.
@@Suijen86 which is a miscalculation, because with the ring, he "betrayed" all of them.
@@MrThewalkingdead He technically could be said to be loyal to Lenore since she wasn't onboard with Carmilla's plans and he protected her.
I'm glad she and Hector didn't end up together. Lenore humilited,dehumized and enslaved hector. Hector was her slave, her "pet" she didn't deserve him
I don't think it was too much trauma bound. They shared a similar view of the world just from different perspectives. They both had their pets, they were both loyal to their group, and both didn't liked conflicts and seeked for an efficient and stable solution.
While she couldn't see him equal and kept him "a boy" to the very end he was still a forgemaster and very capable of standing his ground if he was free.
It's a real shame they closed their story that season. Would have been interesting to see them build something and most likely fail. But in letting her go he also showed he matured.
your cosplays are always so cute :) the teeth suits you well, too !
thanks so much I really had fun with them
2:40 i always thought the "shit talkers will drop in a hit and the calm guy will put you in a grave" was a helpful myth didnt realize its actualy real
I felt the writing between these two characters was quite good. This is a fun video; I appreciate your insights. Thank you.
I don't see anyone mentioning one moment of their story that I think is absolutely fulcral. The moment he cuts his own finger after having already said he was ready to die. The look of sheer horror on her face, it's not because he caged her and has effectively turned against her and her sisters, she had already come to take him to safety, the battle around them be damned.
The sheer horror on her face is her realizing how much she'd hurt him. How he'd rather die than be a pet, even if a well cared for one. How, without a second thought, he put himself through the pain of cutting his own finger to be rid of her and sisters dominion over him.
That was the moment she realized what a monster she had become and why she later chose to end her life.
It's an interesting and valuable analysis. When looking at the narrative, I kind of see why they match each other. I have to disagree and argue that Lenore does love Hector, but it's a very different love. In S2, Carmilla defines that vampire loves by keeping things with them and keeping them safe:
S2E4,
Carmilla: "Dracula has failed his own people. He believed he fell in love with a human woman. He took a pet"
Hector: "I believed her loved her"
Carmilla: "If you love something, you act to keep it as long as you can...instead, he allowed her to be killed by other humans"
Hector: "He wasn't there"
Carmilla: "He wasn't, no...not once did he move to protect her, not once did he consider making her a vampire and bringing her into our community...you would have protected her."
I think Hector would have understood that's his approach to his own pets, to keep them with him indefinitely. I think that might be a good hypothesis as to why Hector is so forgiving of Lenore, because it's hard to be angry at someone who genuinely has your been intentions, even if it's warped. And Lenore really, really emphasizes his safety.
Good video. Can’t wait for your analysis of Trevor and Sypha.
I love that you cover Castlevania, can't remember if I asked you in past videos to do so, I'm pretty sure I did, regardless of that it's a great series and having people make content about it is always nice
Lenore is easily one of my favorite characters in the whole series and I absolutely adore how her death subverts the trope of vampires being in a trance when experiencing the sun before death.
Lenore's definition of power is staggering!❤
I wouldn't really call it Stockholm Syndrome because he never actually aligned his goals with the sisters'. In fact, he is a contributing factor to its downfall.
He developed sympathy and connection with Lenore. That's just a natural human development to grow close with the people you're spending time with. Many prison guards become friends with their inmates without releasing them. Both are not mutually exclusive.
The mention of characters with a sense of bravado having lower self esteem really reminded me of one of my dnd characters
Would you be interested in doing a video on Dominant and Submissive power dynamics in relationships and how psychology plays in that? I see this dynamic between them and wonder if Lennore just likes that dynamic in thier relationship as well Hector?
I know that most people concentrate on the relationship between Lenore and Hecto but if you have read vampire lore, most vampires are extremely solutionist. I dont know if the writer knew this but it touches on Lenore tearing apart the castle to find a splint to fix a spider leg. In some stories people have broken mirrors or have thrown puzzles at vampires because it stops them in their tracks and they have to fix them. Nothing is ever perfect for them
But that only seems to apply to that one scenario. The other vampires are fairly normal.
it's tragic but god it's so good. if only things were different
4:55 and slightly before could not be any more on the button. Absolutely spot on.
You will struggle if you watch Death Parade. Great show with multiple levels of thinking. Surprised how many people don't like it because they misinterpret it. It's a show that fucks with the characters in the show and the audience, but in a very considerate way for how it's manipulating the topic at hand. It works on three levels: what's being said, what's being implied, and what specifically isn't being said (which applies to everyone but is a significant focus of this show). It's a short anime of 12 episodes and does its best to simplify a very ambiguous train of thought so that the audience may feel some sense of closure when they reach their destination. It's a show about what happens to people when they die and how they are sorted into the next stages of existence... or the lack thereof. I would very much enjoy watching what you choose to focus on if you were to react to it. And I need an excuse to keep thinking about it because it only took a day to watch it and it was very beautiful.
Hector played the long game. He won at the very end despite all odds
I've read that the secret wish of caretakers is to be taken care of themselves. Maybe Hector was really happy being Lenore's "pet."
Hector's mom: "I never wanted you"
Isaac: "He is still a little boy...he really only wants pets, you see? He really only understands pets."
Lenore: "I gave you what you always really needed. I made you into my pet"