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Why the Cynical Superhero Isn't That Interesting
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- During my quarantine, I’ve finally binge-watched the popular shonen anime My Hero Academia and the Amazon original series The Boys. Two very different shows, that gave me a lot of really deep feelings about superheroes. Both are words in which superheroes exist and both deal with issues of morality, capitalism, and what it means to be a hero, but both deal with it in a very Hobbes vs Rousseau kind of way.
Plus since at this point in time a good 90% of media seems to be related to comics or some sort of IP that is attached to the military or some big cooperation, it is oddly relevant to explore how exactly our superhero content reflects the most cynical and optimistic parts of our entertainment brains. Especially when it comes to the heroes who end up becoming the most popular.
Also, sorry I changed the title twice I got freaked out XD
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One thing about All Might that I love is that he subverts the old adage of “never meet your heroes”. He’s a legitimately kindhearted, caring, self-sacrificing altruist whose biggest flaw is not being PERFECT. When Izuku Midoriya meets him, he’s been worn down by the burden of trying to be the perfect Symbol of Peace, and then the kid with a heart bigger than his whole self inspires HIM, reminds him of the value of the things he was starting to lose faith in...
That’s real heroism. Not that of superheroes, but heroes in general.
Oh yeah, absolutely. What's neat I think is, Midoriya *did* get his rose-colored view of All Might shattered in a way, as he saw him as this perfect idealized hero, and when he met him and later got to know him, he discovered that All Might was, in fact, human. He had plenty of struggles, not to mention the fact he had a literal hole in his chest he'd been hiding from years. But, that doesn't detract from All Might's heroism. It doesn't give the message that everything is a lie and All Might wasn't worth looking up to, it just makes you appreciate him more for the struggle and for pushing past his own mistakes. Sure, he probably pushes himself too far and should've have tried to shoulder everything alone, but that's just the thing--he's human. I like that message. It's just like how we meet people in real life. The real thing is way more complicated and mixed than our first impression. That doesn't always have to be a bad thing.
@@TheRoseFrontier This thread summarizes everything I love about All Might^^
yes keeper of status quo! I like his personality. He is far from perfect which is good. But Izuku never tried to make something different than all might did he? I am sick of this show at this point.
He also answers a much more interesting scenario than "what if Superman is evil" which is, "what if Superman is injured in the line of duty and forced to retire"Which is just much more interesting.
@@berilsevvalbekret772 he will just not yet
The difference is that Homelander is a human who was raised in a lab while Superman was an foreign alien raised on the Kent farm. Superman is who he is because of the Kent’s.
Also Homelander is made out to be the ultranationalist ubermensch that punctuates fascist ideology by a corporation using that ideology to market Homelander.
For all his horrific faults he himself isn't inherently a nazi like Stormfront, rather he is more a tool of fascism and of fascists. He represents the fascist ideal. But before Stormfront sells him on the idea he isn't exactly a fascist.
If anything The Boys is more critical at the lengths capitalism will go to to make money than any of the heroes in it. A point made more explicit by juxtaposing the CEO with the pushing of an ideology that would be harmful to himself.
Thus whereas Watchmen critiques the collateral damage such heroes would cause, The Boys is more focused on how capitalism would interact with heroes. Something even HeroAca does touch on but doesn't really go into with heroes being paid private contractors to some extent. The Boys is just a cynical look at how in our shit world that would play out.
@@lucasstemba Well in HeroAca about everyone has a power of some sorts, it's just that the heroes have the really good powers. So it's more like their the celebrity-police force.
Hence I laugh the idea Homelander is a critique of Superman. Superman actually had a normal life growing up. To justify Homelander's villainy he is given a completely different backstory from Superman.
Superman was created by two Jewish-immigrants in the midst of the Great Depression, as a symbol of hope; especially because the US was not exactly on good terms with those of non-Christian faith. That kind of context is important.
I understand the cynicism toward these characters with absolute-power, because look at what real-world people do with their absolute-power. The problem is, because we know what happens in the end, there's nowhere left to go.
@@afterdinnercreations936 that's why the injustice superman arc is such a huge fucking YIKES for me. He imposes his will on the world and has inforcers with heavy military gear and RED ARM BANDS. His creators where fleaing germany because of those kinds of guys. He simply would not do that.
"Being a hero is a learning process" truer words man.
I'll remember this
There's also the fact of how upbringing affects these heroes. Homelander was raised as a lab rat devoid of love and, as a result, he himself is unable to love. Then, he became the greatest hero of his society and his narcissistic poison spread, creating a culture of toxic ass "superheroes" that are actually just villains in disguise. In contrast, the society of My Hero Academia was built on All Might's example that a hero is someone who helps and inspires others to help and, because of this, the heroes of that world are a lot more wholesome. So you can make the point that the way your culture's most significant public figures are and behave affects how Hobbes or Rousseau your world ultimately is.
Wonder if they’ll be a crossover between the two worlds
That why the concept of "every universe needs a 'Superman'" concept from Doomsday Clock works since when you look at a lot of stories throughout history they all have this "Superman". How Supes changed the whole world in the perspective of Red Sun story.
Between the two, All Might has more to say about the idea of superheroes than Homelander does. In order to make audiences sympathize with Homelander and explain why is such a monster, he has background that means he never had a normal life like Superman did.
As a Superman fan and someone who was thinking just yesterday about how refreshing it is to see characters who are genuinely doing their best at being good people sometimes... This video was SO good. 💖 Thank you.
This is why I really like characters like Superman or Captain America, they are genuinely with no ulterior motive trying to do the right thing. Admittedly I do like the more nuanced interpretations from modern day, but that core ideal is still there.
It would admittedly help if the writers of more recent Superman media would let him be as political as in the Golden Age. BRING BACK DROPPING MINE OWNERS WHO DON’T PROTECT WORKER SAFETY IN THEIR OWN MINES!
I love that Superman is just a good guy trying to do his best in a complicated world. I also love alternate versions of the story, but I usually prefer it not be Superman. Like the comic Irredeemable, which is basically about a bipolar superhero who never got treatment and ended up going manic as his version of the Justice League tried to both figure out what was wrong with him and learn to kill him at the same time.
It basically switches the immigrant story with that of a foster child battling inherited mental health issues bouncing to homes that both made his behavior worse and did nothing to help him. It does the hypothetical "bad Superman" without being like Injustice where they completely misunderstand grief and fascism.
I also hate how Dr. Manhattan gets misunderstood as a realistic Superman or a critique on having absolute power when he's a very clear critique on nuclear weapons and how apathetic Americans have become towards war crimes.
I’ve just sat through a 40 minute video about the same subject by some yuppie RUclipsr who by the end only proved that he didn’t get the topic. Thankfully, this channel was recommended to me afterwards. You get it! And it’s so nice to hear at least one person who actually does. This video was both as sweet and informative as My Hero Academia itself and though I’m very passionate about this subject and adore My Hero through and through, I learned something about the show from this video.
@@TheFlash-rh2el who is said yuppie youtuber?
“I'm not saying I'm gonna change the world, but I guarantee that I will spark the brain that will change the world.”
― Tupac Shakur
God, what a quote
"I'm gonna quote a convicted rapist to seem deep."
-Talia Rock
Is on the same level as
"All men were created equal"
-constitution written by slave owners
@@jixish1768 He literally said he's not gonna change the world himself lmao.
@@jixish1768 You know that those rape accusations were proven false right (and he wasn't even convicted of rape)? Even the woman who accused him admitted to lying.
@Jixish Well, you wont change the world.
I do like the more hopeful direction stories like My Hero Academia take with our heroes. My favorite character is Eijiro Kirishima. He just genuinely wants to protect people. But he gets scared and he sometimes feels overshadowed by his friends, who have flashier powers. That feels real, it feels human, and he’s still ultimately a good person.
Kirishima is low key under appreciated and he deserves the world
@@ShardReaper Under-appreciated? I thought Kirishima was one of the most popular characters in the series? Then again, I may just be spending a lot of time around other Red Riot stans, lol.
Non-toxic masculinity king
@@LimeyLassen We love to see it.
Kirishima is such a perfect boi. He’s just a himbo who wants to kick ass for justice, and I love him so much.
"Too often we make scepticism and realism synonyms"
I've been trying to find words for exactly that feeling for quite some time now, thank you!
Eh, I see a lot of the danger of confusing optimism with realism in these comments. One dude legitimately said that "the west invented tolerance, egalitarianism, democracy, common law rights and the abolition of slavery." This is the kind of dude that Homelander was written to criticize, & maybe he's just a racist, but I feel like it definitely contributes that acknowledging that society & history are actually kinda shitty is frequently written off as "cynicism."
@@TheLithp There is danger in that, (and "the West" did not invent any of those things). There are a lot of parts of society and history that are definitely shitty. But I'm not dening any of when I say "Too often we make scepticism and realism synonyms" .
But I'm not denying any of when I say "Too often we make scepticism and realism synonyms". Realism is more nuanced then both, and too far either way is dangerous. (And maybe I'm just more sensitive to the negativity)
When you mentioned how writers have stripped away the Jewishness of a lot of these characters, I literally felt so seen and almost cried. So many people forget the context of when and why these characters were created. Anyway I always love watching your videos!!
Right! After BvS Superman kept getting called Space Jesus and like...no. He’s Space Moses.
@@walterobrien8045 Which is weird since Zack Snyder is Jewish
@@walterobrien8045 Yessss thank you! It's fucking insulting to be honest.
@TatzRules Yay hi, thanks for your question, Judaism is an ethno-religion so it’s not based solely on religion you can be Jewish but also not religious(there’s a book you can read called (how Judaism became an religion). Also not all Jews are white, so no it wouldn’t be possible for us to just relate to white people. Also the tradition are deeply ingrained, my ancestors were from Spain and forced to convert to Catholicism and yet they secretly still had Jewish practices that stayed in the family long after my extended family forgot their true origins.
@TatzRules Yay So, first of all, not all Jews are white. There are Jews that come from African countries, from Middle Eastern countries and so on. Second of all, I don't think representation can be summed up by just skin colour. Judiasim is a religion, ethnicity, culture and so much more. We are not represented by Jesus-Superman because that takes away the cultural significance of the charecter. Think about it: he's the most powerful person in DC comics. When do we get that kind of representation? In popular culture, most depections of Judiasim deal with the Holocaust, with our great suffering. But Superman-he's hope. He shows that we're not just perpectual victims, we can be the heroes as well. So yeah-it's insulting when that's taken away from us.
I always viewed Homelander, and the boys as a whole, as more of a deconstruction on America than of the superhero genre itself. Never thought to compare it to My Hero. Great video.
This is the correct take. There's a subsect of comic book fans whose hero worship is so strong that their immediate reaction to something like the Boys is "How dare you make your analogue a terrible person, superheroes are meant to inspire!" And that's the extent of their take. Ironically, this is probably the same sort of reaction the general audience within the world of the Boys would have had it been revealed that Homelander is a secret fascist.
The only problem being that it's a deconstruction of early 2000s Bush-era USA rather that today's US
@@theomegajuice8660 You're thinking of the source material. Did you watch the show?
@@ignorantrempit The Boys IS a deconstruction and making fun of superheroes. The comic at least. And I still like itr. But the show seems more in line with what you're saying although the comic IS ALSO a deconstructionof America.
I agree. I think the superheroes in The Boys are supposed to represent celebrities/billionaires/politicians - the ones who can and do get away with "murder"
"I still like men" *nods in bisexual looking at kurt russel in the thing*
God damn it I'm straight and you still knocked me back to like the last shot of the film.
Kinsey scale creepin' up there.
Yo, Kurt has aged very well and is still an extremely handsome man. Definitely one of my celebrity crushes.
How about KURT Russell in Captain Ron? I'd like me a bit of that.
"The Normies don't know who Namor is." That hit me in my little Namor fangirl heart.
One day we'll get some Namor rep, just gotta hold out for a resurgence in speedo fashion.
@A Self Called L he's the blueprint Aquaman is made off of but essentially yes.
The Namormies, if u will
@A Self Called L more like Namor is aquaman but cooler
Do you have any Namor comic books/arcs to recommend?
I love your comment on that realism is not about having your characters be dark and gritty because "that's realistic", as most people would argue. GoT often received praise for that same reason, because the way the characters acted was appatently "realistic". But in truth, it reveals more about the writer's or the viewer's view on humanity if that sort of dark behavior is deemed as realistic.
I love this comment so much. I watched all of GoT with friends, and a lot of the time I felt very detached from the story because of those elements of “realism” - bc they actually seemed very contrived to me, and their only value was shock value or fan service. Def a cynical show!
I thought GoT was realistic because the designs of their fantasy creatures are scientifically plausible by obeying the laws of physics and gravity. And of course, the lack of supernatural elements like real magic.
@@raphaelmarquez9650 Not sure where you're getting that. The dragons in Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire are definitely not plausible and there is very real, very tangible magic in the series.
@@TheRedname The dragons are plausible because they have wings as their arms instead being an extra appendage with arms and legs, which is only possible in a lab because all creatures evolved as tetrapods.
@@raphaelmarquez9650 I still wouldn't go so far as to call them plausible. More plausible, maybe, but not plausible.
I feel like the piece thats missing from your discussion about the boys is starlight, She is an all american girl next door cheerleader type who is legitimately good, her character isn't super cynical and even trusting to a fault but that isn't encouraged by the people and systems around her. She provides a nice counter argument to homelander that way
I definitely agree, and on my view the boys is not necessarily about how heroes suck but mostly about how heroes would be if big corporations decided who should become a hero and how they would be under a capitalistic society
I'd say the same about Queen Maeve. Sure, she's disillusioned and apathetic now (or at least, at the start of the series), but she still has a good and moral core, just one that's been beaten down by years of tyranny and abuse from Homelander.
In most cynical stories there are characters like that, the way writers decide how to treat those characters tells a lot about their view on the world. Some of them die, some are corrupted and some actually get happy endings
I mean, even Homelander himself is implied to be a mess because of how he was raised.
@@felipeveloso1578 Vast majority of the time, they end up being abused and punished for being good. To quote a shitty DM I had the displeasure of gaming under "In the real world, good deeds don't pay off" after infecting our party with an incurable disease when we went to help a sickly man get to the temple for healing.
"We are taught to be mistrustful of kindness, and affection, and the people who show us their true selves to be good." This is a powerful point and spot-on when it comes to discussing cynicism about superheroes.
It's sad how master works of the late 80s damaged the idea of "serious comics". It has been said a million times, but a lot of people looked at Watchmen and Dark Knight Retuns and thought "this looks cool" without stopping for a second to ask themselves "why is this cool?". There's so much to say about Superman, but it always comes down to "but what if Supes bad?". Also, I love Kill Bill, but that speech about Superman is soooo wrong
Yeah like when I see so many people try to copy watchmen they clearly think it’s just about being cynical and heroes in real life would be evil, when in actuality it’s story isn’t just grimdark but is positive at points. Like take the comedian most people would some up his character as someone who sees society’s true face and decides to accept he’s a monster and that everything is meaningless/a joke, but they forget important scenes like when he discovers the main “villains” plan, he is horrified, he may act nihilistic and that nothing matters but when he sees something actually monsterous that facade is shot and his cynical worldview is shattered. A lot of these people think when making these stories/people “realistic” it means be dark/make them monsters when in actuality it should mean depth to the characters
Don't get me started on the "Rorschach had a point" folks
What do you mean. In real life giving food/money to a homeless person will invariably ruin their lives as they get murdered by others for it !!! Stop believing in dumb fairy tales you snowflake!
/Big sarcasm
That's why he says he HATED how his works were adapted. They created an edgy wave that affected the whole world. People get into the angst and brooding instead of using it as a subversive aesthetic. Like the Blade movie, it was dark yet Blade was such a positive character. People get stuck in the abyss and never get out
@@runakovacs4759 That's basically Kreia from KOTOR 2 tho, that sometimes you can't help somebody yet you shouldn't be afraid to try.
this definition of Hero is inspiratonal because it allows people to act like a Hero in their own life, even when you strip away the the super powers.
reminds me of a lot of Terry Pratchetts writing, especially the witches. "someone should do something...and I guess that's going to be me"
Pratchett, out there writing some of the most life affirming books for years, that man was a legend
Have you ever heard of a Superman story called "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?"
The storyline was published at the tail-end of the 90s Dark Age of Comics and feels prescient because it's like Superman vs. The Boys by having Superman confront a band of 90s Anti-Heroes called "The Elite" and coming to terms with whether he's old-fashioned or not. At first the world seems to cater towards The Elite's brand of crime-fighting by acting as judge, jury, and executioner as long as it gets results and the pressure weighing on Superman to maintain his principles in the face of public opinion. The story climaxes with Superman fighting the Elite. And Superman gives everyone what they want. . . or think they want: he lets loose. It's a horrifying example of what Superman is like if he shakes his morals and the story then turns it into a subversion in that he never truly hurt or killed the Elite, it was all misdirection. Nevertheless, Superman makes a point that it's easy to slip into cynicism and to indulge in our worst instincts, a weakness; true strength lies in maintaining our integrity and principles in the face of evil, and to aspire and dream of a better tomorrow.
Dreams save us. Dreams lift us up and transform us into something better. And on my soul, I swear that until my dream of a world where dignity, honor and justice are the reality we all share, I'll never stop fighting. Ever.
----Superman What's so Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way
I HATE "what's so funny..."; Superman basically says "i didn't actually torture you, i just performed enhanced interrogation on you to pretend that i tortured you. this means i am the good guy." It's surreal how people look at it and think "ah yes this is how i want superman to be and act."
@@ungulatemanalpha how would you write superman?
Saw the movie of that. It was alright, but I just don't jive with it. It's like...yeah, I'm sure it's real easy to be a pacifist when you're an invincible flying alien with an army of advanced robots at your disposal. Real convenient everyone forgets that they can breathe a sigh of relief now that Atomic Skull is no longer around to melt them just because you looked scary on TV beating up a British stereotype. That's the kind of thing I find unrealistic about comics, it's a world where super powerful mass murderers regularly threaten whole cities if not the entire world & people are just weirdly okay with them being spared so they can escape from jail & tear up the city in dramatic fights with the heroes "in sequel after sequel, for all time," as Homelander puts it.
I'm personally a little ambivalent about that issue because the Elite is clearly a parody of The Authority, which is itself anti-grimdark. It's about a group of flawed people who don't always like each-other but who put aside those differences to save the world. Within the trappings of 90s gore and darkness.
(Like, I like it. It's a solid story. But I think that the writers didn't really get The Authority. Which I also like.)
(Also because they turned Jenny Sparks, the team founder, into a man. The Authority started out with 3 women. And team couple, Midnighter & Apollo, actual gay characters.)
THANK YOU. Honestly, I've been trying to articulate why the "Superheroes are inherently fascist" hot take is deeply frustrating and you've done it so much better than anyone I've seen on this site. Thanks so much!
I feel like the fascist thing is probably a criticism from leftist or liberal views. I've never heard anyone argue that superheroes are "inherently fascist" though. Only that they've been adopted into the culture of nationalism and American Exceptionalism, which has white supremacy and fascism under its umbrella. I get that superheroes existed in anti-Nazi propaganda, and though I'm all for that, that doesn't mean they aren't fascist today. Not to mention that the US had elements of fascism and white supremacy during WWII (Nazi parties were acceptable before the war, racial segregation laws, eugenics, etc).
However, I also don't think we should be condemning superheroes. We should simply be trying to detangle them from the fascist culture of American exceptionalism and whatnot. Otherwise, the alternative is giving them up and letting conservatives and/or fascists appropriate and control them as symbols in culture.
@@hornedgoddess8191
Captain America is literaly dressed in the USA flag, it is part of his identity to be a patriot and since DC and Marvel are produced in USA by USA, it is rather foolish to think they can be removed from that or that they should. At the end of the day they want to do good and they are doing so by saving people and fighting SUPERVILLAINS! They don't seek revolutions or social changes in an overly complex manner via the use of their powers.
Only in recent years the writers have strated to do questionable things, like the X-men supporting seggregation among other things that are virtue signaling. What the hell have the opposite done recently?
@@Raximus3000 I'm guessing you've never heard of "Nomad," huh?
@@muntu1221
"At the conclusion of Captain America #184 (April 1975) Rogers returns to the role of Captain America when he realizes that he could champion America's ideals without blindly supporting its government."
GovermentCountry
That goes double for countries that use (fair) elections. Why is a comic from 45 years ago more intelligent than people today.
@@Raximus3000 Entirely irrelevant to your, or my, point.
Your original point was that removing the flag from his costume, period, was foolish. You implied it was something that would only arise in recent years. You claimed that heroes don't seek revolutions or social change as an active part of their careers (despite the fact that Superman has actively opposed racism _and_ has been used for war propaganda). All of this is contradicted by the mere existence of Nomad. The conclusion of the story is irrelevant when the story itself contradicts you. It's also hypocritical of you to mention the conclusion of the story, but you're complaining about on-going stories like what's occurring in X-men right now.
You only formed your current comment after looking up Captain America #184, which is very strange because it is so far divorced from your initial comment. You're trying very hard to make it seem like old school Captain America is a MAGA type for no reason. You know you're the people old school comics were making fun of, right? Old comics have always been fairly progressive. You actually would've hated those comics if you grew up in the generation they were written in. _Especially_ in the 70's.
Homelander is suppose to be the version of Superman that was raised by a greedy corporation, in actuality, a facist corporation started by a nazi scientist, and that greed bleeds and infects heros that are brought into the fold. The Boys is just about showing what corporations would do if superheros were created instead of born.
I thought that supervillans was the point of showing that. Having ”heroes” do it is essentielly pointless and just a way to tear down the classic heroes like Superman.
@@christianbjorck816 they are the antagonists, they're just known to the public as "heroes"
@@christianbjorck816 I guess a simpler way of putting it is "The Boys" is utmost depiction of "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
@Jubei Kibagami Fez I get that is what they are going for (which has been done to death already) but that ”power corrupts” as an absolute statement just isn’t true. I understand it’s tempting to think it is though, belive you me the politicians in my country are a prime example.
@Pranav Ganesh Yes, but my point is that supervillans already fill this role. Lex Luthor for example. You don’t have to do the ”evil justice leauge” yet again, which was done pretty good in Batman Brave and the Bold for example. It only works if already have the heroes firmly established and as they are supposed to be - which the Boys does not. Two 20 mins episodes could tell that story and get the point across. Without tearing down the heroes.
Same with the episode when Batman teams up with Superman. Superman is shown as he is and should be, but is exposed to red kryptonite and becomes ”evil” so Batman wants to help his friend and stop him before he ruins his reputation. It did a much better job than the BvS movie.
And as for satire I do think Brat Pack is superior to The Boys, based on the first season I saw. But I don’t follow the show that closely since I’m not that into cynical/morally grey stuff.
I like to think Johnny Bravo's father is All-Might
Maybe its the reverse
and Mirio Togata is his son
@@makaiev good point
@@mathieuleader8601 ikr... thanks... it would be an awesome time line, getting a kid made him clean up his act which lead to teamming up with samurai jack.
That would explain his insecurities lol
"Sometimes goodness matters" the hottest of takes that shouldn't be a hot take
I honestly think that a lot of what the cynical view misses is that these comic book heroes are not meant to physically save us, the reader. But to give us hope, hope that there are other who will do the right thing. Hope that we will do the right thing when the time is right. I think that gets lost in our culture right now. Especially when I see stuff like “who would win in a fight?” discussions. It’s not about who is the strongest, or who could beat up who. It’s about who inspires you to be better.
Comic fans seem to forget that.
Thank you for the beautiful vid. It got me all emotional.
The fact that they ask "Who would win" already marks the extent of the question and its context.
The strength of the Boys tv series is its critique of the military industrial complex through the metaphor of superheroes more than its critique of the other media superhero.
The Boys has a lot of layers, but I do think its criticisms of capitalism are more interesting than its criticisms of superheroes.
Young and angsty teen me: Gawd, Superman and Cyclops are the worst. It is so unbelievable and uncool for people to be so morally good.
Me now: Being morally grey does not by default make you unique and special. Being able to consistently lift people up and think of others is difficult and should be celebrated more. Also, those people exist IRL. They aren't mythical unicorns.
This video does a great job expressing some of the conflicting feelings I had while watching the Boys, and the unbridled joy I get from MHA. Also, Deku Best Boi in a show filled with best bois.
Except Bakugo, he's just an abuser.
@@Fafnd Yes, I don't know why people like him. We only have one episode where he isn't just a bully with a scary power. Bakugo thinks the role of top hero is his by the birthright of having a powerful quirk.
@@griffenspellblade3563 Probably because the creator, Kohei Horikoshi, is trying to tell us he's a hero without actually showing us Bakugo being a hero.
Unfortunately we live in a society, where we will probably worship super humans like home lander, who’s not interested in doing good. Because doing good, is cheesy or dumb.
@@thespider8654 Have any of you actually watch the anime past season one or two
I think the biggest misstep of cynical themes is that you can be aware of the evil of the world without succumbing to it.
✨ They shouldn't have let me read, if they didn't want me to torment men ✨
An interesting thing in approach is that MHA also asks the question of what it means to be a hero more broadly. Is a hero someone who just beats bad people? What about a hero who saves people? Someone who works as a medic can be a hero too, just as disaster relief workers.
that's tackled in the manga
no one tackles broad deep topics like the Japanese, honestly tho.
@@Brindlebrother now that's just Orientalism, even if it is positive
Me sitting through ads: don't do it. Don't hit skip. Support the creators you love.
Me: *twitches for 2 minutes holding myself back*
...is that a thing? Does skipping ads affect video revenues?
@@snuffles504 It does actually! I've learned that it actually doesnt matter if you have ads in your video, but how the viewers _interact_ with it. So like, if I click an ad link, the content creator gets more money than if I sat through it, and if I sit through it, that's more money to the creator than just skipping. hope this clears things up :)
@@mirahxo_ do you have any sources bc I've heard something different
@@lunarwaning Um I'll have to look up the video again. It was talking ab monetization because I want to try out being a youtuber.
Hah, I got like 20 unskippable 6 second adds
To me it felt like The Boys is less comic book satire and more political satire. Like Homelamder to me isn’t a Steve Rogers or Clark Kent satire, but commentary on the real world privileged and powerful white men who have too much power and are motivated by petty things. (Like Elon musk if he got his hands on a Nuke). All the super hero stuff seems secondary and about how easily fascism can be dressed up as something else. The quote from the show runner definitely runs counter to how I interpreted the show, but the political and social commentary seems to be a much larger aspect than just parodying existing comic characters. Like if the show were made 50 years ago it would have been cowboys, 30 and it would have been space marines, it’s just about who the “strong man” character in popular culture currently is.
People behind The Boys may be cynical about superheros, but the commentary that hits hardest for me with characters like Homelander is not that Superman could ever become him (because I agree completely with you, Superman simply isn't this character, they share only a similar facade), rather it is the commentary Homelander embodies and how truly impossible it is to make that commentary hit home. There exists a dissonance in the USA with the atrocities committed in the name of patriotism by its government (among so many other tangential problems). I'm afraid to think that there is no medium with which to convey this idea, since the very nature of nationalism combats any notion that the United States could ever be at fault. For me personally, I feel an analog between my own feelings of helplessness to correct the course of the country I live in, with the helplessness felt by non-super people in The Boys, where regardless of how they feel, there is no way to advocate for change (in real life it being a political system that resists change and/or accountability to the degree of being seemingly immutable, and in The Boys being capricious individuals with god-like powers).
I really liked your video, and personally value the perspective you offer, and it gives me a lot to think about. So I guess I'm trying to say, thank you for an awesome video!
And trust me, you don't want to read the original material
small groups of people can change the world because only they have in the past. It is possible to fix things at the block, city, and county level. Things like the Baby Tooth Survey and MADD have had outsized impacts.
i need to go rewatch into the spiderverse again now
Thank you. I've honestly become so exhausted by the cynicism and lack of empathy that seem to be the only take on superheroes that U.S. media / pop culture are interested in these days.
When even the faintest bit of hope in the capacity of humanity to help each other and be empathetic towards one another feels subversive, something's gone wrong.
It's fueled by the cynicism and lack of empathy of the audience, who have now been trained to hate and question everything, and to believe that the world is nothing more than a sexist white supremacy, even though it's nothing of the sort.
Hell, remember when One Punch Man first became popular? Yeah, the joke of him beating anyone in a single punch is funny, but what people like me focus is what he says all the time: "I'm just a hero for fun." Imagine that, someone wanting to help others...just because they want to. What a concept. /Sarcasm That's how bad it's gotten, to the point where the idea of someone *actually* being that kind...is a subversion or joke.
This isn't even true. The Marvel movies and Into the Spiderverse are some of the most popular movies and those aren't cynical at all. Even the Spiderman game was a popular hit.
@@hornedgoddess8191 yeah but most of the time when other stories (ie not main marvel/dc) try to do a more dark/deconstructive superhero story they usually try to be knockoff watchmen and be all edgy and nihilistic, without realizing watchmen isnt just nihilistic and is actually hopeful at points. I really blame the school of thought of cynical = smart a LOT of modern writers tend to go with and think there smarter then they are
@@christopherauzenne5023 I think most mainstream writers are like this too. I wouldn't say it's an issue of modernity but mainly an unwillingness to understand the core ideas and criticism beneath Watchmen. Instead, a lot of people just think sex and violence are cool.
It's so refreshing to hear someone talk about superheroes in this way. As I get older I realize that the world has enough cynicism in it without us making every story have that tone or perspective. Humans can be so much better than we give ourselves credit for. We need only the light to show us the way.
ALSO did the people who made the Boys actually READ any Superman books? Like, for example, Peace on Earth, one of the most famous graphic novels ever written, which uses Superman's power and moral incorruptibility to demonstrate how a single person cannot solve a systemic issue, and how we need to empower people in need and work with them, that solutions must come from the ground up and not the top down? You know, the opposite of fascism?
If Superman was just Homelander, no one would have ever bothered to write Homelander in the first place!
I just LOVE your comment!
I think this is spot on. "People with power do bad things with it" isn't a compelling point, especially not to our generation- it's obvious. It's a "duh." What's extraordinary is the idea of people having power and doing good with it, and maybe the struggles on the way to that. Powerful sentiment.
There are a bunch of examples that come to mind. Groundhog Day, Spiderman, and Bruce Almighty. Movies about people who obtain supernatural-powers, initially use those powers (or in Spiderman's case, desire to) for their own personal-gain, but are burdened by the enormous responsibility and eventually learn to let go of their egos to help people.
I feel like a lot of "Cynic" authors see stuff like Alan Moore, Kentaro Miura, etc, and want to replicate what they do without knowing what makes those stories work. I love dark stuff but like with all writing, it has to be done well, just having someone dressed as Superman murder a bunch of babies and then yell "Corporations!" is like something an edgy 8th grader would write.
Its funny, cause while Miura's Berserk is a very dark story, it never really went into being cynical. Sure Guts loses his true companion and his lover is in a vegetative state, but there's always hope and that you could change things for the better.
Most of these cynical author would just go "the world suck, there's no hope, and you can't change that"
Yep and Watchmen even brings it up where the newspaper seller talks about how much he miss stuff like Superman comics as that to him was a real hero and he is not treated like an idiot for saying that. It's obvious that Moore loved superheroes, he just wanted to explore them in a different context. Which is obvious when he wrote Supreme and Tom Strong later which were love letters to silver age superheroes. Honestly, if someone decided to write a sequel to Watchmen (not counting the HBO series), it's should kind of be about heroes trying to be dark and gritty but realizing that's not what the world needs. We could say have a guy who get superpowers like Superman and he decides to use it for power only to realize that people fear him instead of respecting him. So he decides to use his power for good and helping the world.
MHA is excellent for characters, they don't shy away from tropes, they toggle them a little, fleshing out characters and bothering with everyone.
I see the appeal towards the likes of Bakugou, who in many other series would be a the textbook thoughtless bully, a side character there simply to be toppled, yet in this case, we have someone who takes everyone and everything seriously, has seen someone who wasn't on par with him as a rival from a young age and loves and admires the main superhero.
My favourite is Kirishima, he's just on his own journey of improvement, he's supportive and portrayed as a bit dopey, yet it fits, as he's not looking to criticize others and his past criticism of himself was a very black and white thinking. I like how he's drew motivation and inspiration from a retro superhero and his female peer Mina, who's also one of my favourites (her charisma is inspiring even to me, she stands out everywhere she goes without opening her mouth and her attitude just fits), I like how these two now inspire one another, they're both upbeat and transparent.
I have too many favourites.
I don't think that even in the world of The Boys all heroes are "MAGA" and bad people; Maeve is a jaded cynic, she's an alcoholic and she seems to be angry or depressed most of the time...but she does care, despite how often she says that she don't, that she's no hero that she doesn't care anymore, she does...I mean, she has saved Starlight, Billy, The Boys more than once, she did fight Black Noir and Stormfront to protect Starlight and the boys, even if she did yelled Hughie.
Plus, Starlight herself is shown to be pretty heroic.
Evil Superman will never not piss me off. No matter how good the story it always angers me.
I feel you
@caitlyncarvalho7637 nice speech kiddo, why for me though?
I'm reminded of a comment Moviebob made in his dissection of Batman vs Superman. About how if you're going to deconstruct something it helps if you have something to actually say about, a previously unrecognized or unexplored facet of the subject that may be present but often overlooked.
While "Superheroes being people/having problems" was a concept that had been touched on or dabbled with before (see...pretty much all of Marvel) in Watchmen Moore took a much deeper and surprisingly nuanced dive into the subject. All the various characters, with the possible exception of the original Nite Owl, are some flavor of compromised, damaged, or misguided. Each one has very human and very flawed reason for putting on the cape and none of them end particularly well for it. But we also come to learn and understand who and why they are under those masks and capes. Even Doctor Manhattan, the resident "Superman" stand in, isn't portrayed as "evil" so much as he is apathetic. His great power gradually eroding his humanity and connection with the very people he is supposed to protect. And while there is much one can read in both text and subtext in the work one message that does come through pretty clearly is...
Superheroes AREN'T supposed to be like this.
Rorschach ISN'T some cool badass loner fighting uncompromisingly against what he sees as "evil." He's a dirty, smelly, violent and emotionally unbalanced and stunted tramp. The Comedian ISN'T some truth to power speaking, laughing at the absurdity of the world tough guy. He's a bully and a sadist who uses his work as a cape to hurt people. Nite Owl II is a schlub and ascended fanboy who puts on the costume because it makes him feel cool and powerful. Silk Spectre II is a pageant kid being lived through vicariously by her mother. Ozymandias is a megalomaniac with delusions of greatness and Dr. Manhattan, for all his power, is apathetic and an automaton just going through the motions.
Now granted, true to Moore's skill as a writer, he does give them each layers and depth as he explores them each in turn so you do feel some sympathy or understanding for them. But in each the point is explored and dissected through various lenses with final message being this ISN'T how we should want superheroes to be. That looked through lens of "glass half empty" they stop being "Superheroes" and should not be recognized as such.
Or to put it more simply: his deconstruction of the genre was a commentary and refutation on the very impulse to make superheroes "realistic."
And I think that's where many of the works like The Boys or the Snyderverse or even the 90s antihero craze itself fall down. They "deconstruct" be don't have anything to really say other than "What if Superman was a dick?" And while that can indeed be fertile narrative ground in the short term or small doses it inevitably comes back the same answer no matter which path you take.
What if Superman was a dick? Well, then he wouldn't be Superman.
It is possible to write superheroes as compelling and human. To give them character flaws and troubles that offset their powers and daring deeds. You hit the nail on the head with Miles who, like Peter before him, was just a regular kid who won the superpower lottery and choses to put those powers to good use, even if he himself is scared as Hell and stumbles along the way. Even the strange visitor from another planet can be (and is) pretty interesting if you delve into him with more a perspective on the "Man" rather than "Super." I mean, think about it. His chosen career is that of journalist. Even if he didn't have all those powers he'd still be crusading for truth and justice and all that stuff. That's just who he is. That's who he will always be, big red S or not.
And that's who all superheroes ultimately are. Yes, the powers and enchanted hammers and armored suits and magic lassos and super soldier serums help. But at their core the thing that really defines them is their courage. Their willingness to stand for those who can't stand and speak for those who can't speak and show us not who we should be but rather who we can be. After all, even Clark himself once opined:
"In the end, the world didn't really need 'Superman.' Just a brave one."
You shouldn't put The Boys with the Snyderverse. At least the show.
I’m crying thinking about these sweet sweet heroes learning and growing! I think Prodigy said it best in Young Avengers
“Saving the world from yourself is the first, most important step.”
It's so wonderful to hear someone speaking so kindly of All Might... the fandom seems sometimes be so full of hate towards him, it sometimes make me feel ill.
Capitalism was the true nemesis all along :0
* surprised pikachu face *
communism is just a red herring.
@@msfthe1st117 Well it is red, but I don't get how it is a red herring?
@@belegl.7721 it’s a reference to clue
@@msfthe1st117 Thanks!
I’m sure I’ll like this video since the premise is A+ but I just wanna say the Froppy figure in the back of the intro is very cute.
Comment brought to you by the algorithm engagement gang and the Tsu is best girl gang
Edit: I have now watched the whole thing, and was 100% correct that it was, in fact, A+ content. Sometimes cynicism gets the best of you and you take good things and ruin them for fun. Sometimes, you gotta let your weary soul enjoy growth and change for the better and let your superheroes be who they were ultimately meant to be- figures of hope.
I think The Boys among many other things is a response to the emptiness of the Marvel movies. Here we have these movies, that supposedly preach “good values” while being owned by a monopoly, one of the richest companies in the world. To me at least, the cynicism towards “superheroes” is deserved.
As much as I like Marvel movies, I always felt some emptiness from their messages. It's very clean who's the villian and who's the hero, but what the hero represents it's always so bland and never represents true change in society, it's just maintenance of what's already bad.
They are great action movies, but when it comes from the moral it's always so superficial, and ok I don't expect much from a Disney movie but come on, they try to act smart, Thanos is a great example. Having Thanos being basically purple Thomas Malthus, but the fact they never refute how wrong he is, the movies even reforce Thanos was right but the beginning of Endgame. I learned about Thomas Malthus when I was 15 years old and how his theory is wrong because the problem is not too much people but how the resources are not well distributed, but I guess the truth is too much of a communist idea for a capitalist movie empire to show their audience, so why make this his philosophy anyway????????? Now I have to deal with people blaming poor people with many children as the cause of environmental problems 'cause their only source of information about it is freaking Thanos from Avengers movies.
I feel like that view of the MCU is a bit too over-simplifying, though. It's mostly a very good criticism-- this huge awful corporation is making movies about characters that were essentially meant to be vigilantes. It's terribly ironic. But that doesn't mean every person working under the corporation represents those monopolistic values. The higher ups at Disney/Marvel only care about money, but they know to hire artists who actually care about their art and telling a story. (if they hired filmmakers who also only cared about money.. well their movies probably wouldn't turn out good enough to even MAKE that money.) Ryan Coogler for instance had an artistic vision for Black Panther than was very personal and important to him. See also: Taika Waititi and James Gunn (like him or not, I think he's a good example).
@@thabittercourt These are good points. Though, "but what the hero represents is always so bland and never represents true change in society, it's just maintenance of what's already bad." I think Captain Marvel would beg to differ, given it's a film about a woman realizing the side she was fighting for are actually imperialistic fascists, so she turns on them and protects the alien immigrant refugees they were persecuting. It's also about said woman realizing she was being gaslighted, that she deserves better than that, and she shouldn't have to prove herself to the men that gaslighted her... oh, also depicts a creep who tells her to "smile" as someone who deserve to have his arm twisted. Those few messages seemed to piss off a lot of people. Especially white western men. Not saying Marvel/Disney generally steps out of their way to be progressive-- these big studios DO in fact only care about money, and so they cater to what's already (or is at least becoming) the most popular opinion... so they don't lose money. But the US is such a divided country today, even stuff like Black Panther, Captain Marvel, and Thor Ragnarok, which all should've been the norm a long time ago, are still rather "progressive" in ways. The negative side is that Disney only makes them to make money. The positive side is, well: the fact that these movies make BIG bank is proof most of society supports their messages.
Yeah, also "Superman as a fascist" to me is often more about the cultural impact of Superman and the superhero industry in general, than it is about anything that is actually in the story of Superman.
Superman is in some ways a more charismatic Uncle Sam, the US uses the character as propaganda to represent an all powerful force that is uncorrupted and cares for the weak, as if the US empire was the same.
It's easy to see a cynical Superman because it's easy seeing him as a stand in for the US government/military/values at the same time, because he has been used for it.
@@nikotina899 yes! And the idea of a singular hero to “fix everything” that we as a society can depend on, leans a little into fascism, or at least plays into what makes fascism attractive to people. All we need is a hero who can save us all, we’re pretty much useless without them. Fascism is easy and democracy is hard.
I dont think "the boys" talks about the characters, and how all of them are secretly a piece of sh**. I think the show talks about our society, and how it molds and corrupts our intentions, how it exploits our fears and hopes, making everything a product to gain power and control.
Also, thats not power what makes a hero, but actually, the lack of it. Heroes are those who dont have power, but fights anyway.
Right. And I'd argue The Boys adheres more to the Russo philosophy, with capitalism being the corrupting entity and people like Starlight being the pure, good intentioned humanity
@@troyareyes *Rousseau, Jean (John) Jacques (Jack) Rousseau.
And yes absolutely, In the boys, it's a corrupt system that creates the evil heroes. The reason homelander is the sociopathic imperialist creep he is, is that he was lab grown and deprived of human connections during his childhood. He's been raised to be a weapon. The deep has been made insecure about his body and his powers, and he takes it out on women, the list goes on... its the financial_military-media complex that turns potentially good people with powers into supercharged nightmares.
I agree. Starlight is a perfect example and even after bring f*cked over, she is still trying to make the world better. Same with Queen Maeve.
With the video briefly mentioning Alan Moore, I feel the need to point that Moore has long gotten sick of and moved away from 'deconstruction' (well, he's now moved away from superheroes altogether, but that's a different discussion). His series Tom Strong and work on Supreme were both reactions against his own Watchmen (and all the comics trying to ape it)
Kripke's statement is pretty hilarious given that he made Supernatural, one of the whitest shows in the history of television.
+
He also wrote it fifteen years ago and he's been doing other stuff for ten years. People change (but not his criticism of the Power That Be).
NO WAY,,,
It's also pretty hilarious since he made this show for Amazon.
I’d say starlight is kind of the counterpoint to the general cynicism of the boys, also Mauve’s change in the end of S2
I would like to add one thing about MHA's heroes. They also help out at natural disasters.
there disaster relief, cops, EMT's etc
all rolled into one profession(you can actually specialize in certain things)
@@dangerouslydubiousdoubleda9821 Yep. Here's a fun thing, what would you specialize in... granted, you'd need to choose a quirk that goes along with. I'd probably go for disaster relief, and have reality warping or time manipulation powers. Basically, I'd save people by either reversing the localized time, so that they wouldn't get hurt, or I'd make it so that whatever is trapping them is gone.
Let's say they're in a collapsed building, I could either reverse time so that I can evacuate them while the building is still in tact, or blip all the debris away (except for stuff that's keeping them from bleeding out) and get everyone immediate medical attention.
@@jonathanstern5537 Yeah, you don't necessarily have to be a combat hero(rescue heroes like Wash can get really good deals like being the mascot for a major washing machine company)
This AND Patrick's video about "gritty" superheroes in a row! 🙏🥺💖
Exactly my thought when I saw the title of this video. Different thesis, same message. “Superheroes can be good, actually.”
Love Patrick but think this hits the point a bit better
Not enough Gritty pictures in this one imo.
@@DumbIdeaPresentedStupidly Different aspects of “gritty superheroes” are discussed in the two videos. Patrick focused on the studios pandering/fan entitlement/ownership over canon and how it affects the text, while Princess focused on the philosophy behind the idealism vs cynicism takes of the superheroes. Both are interesting IMHO.
Gritty has been a hero for years; 2020 made Gritty a Superhero (in memes anyway)
"Everytime he wears a sweater I'm like "I am attracted to men still...wOW" is such a bisexual mood and had me wHEEZING
I haven't watched the video yet, but I'm going to guess this is a comment about Chris Evans.
@@jacobd1984 chris Evans has nothing on the sweater wearing finesse of the man in the video 😔
You had me at the Oliver and Co. reference. That's my favorite song from the movie.
I pretended to be a music snob for a while. Part of that meant dissing billy Joel. Then I grew up and realized I've loved his songs forever. I'm a bad hipster.
I don't know what point Kripke what trying to make, and it sounds a bit monolithic. But, I think a point about many superheroes having fascist/authoritarian streaks tied into its DNA is very connected to the notion of "benevolent" wielding of disproportionate individual power. Superman is far from a fascist character because of how his personal morality is depicted most of the time. But the idea of relying on or looking up to such a centralized power structure and depend on its moral benevolence and virtue has a fair bit of overlap with the authoritarian ideology of people like Hobbes.
Thinking of people who have immense power in terms of their personal ethics and virtue, rather than consider the position of power they hold as inherently the problem is kind of a biproduct of an authoritarian perspective. Hobbes wants benevolent "Supermen" on top to control/guide society, but I don't want "Supermen" in the first place whose personal character matters to me.
For me, it ties into the problems with the majority of stories where individuals solve and cause grand/structural problems, rather than social movements creating and deconstructing social structures. That disproportionate "great man/ubermenschen" focus is a bit of a wink and a nod away from dear leader territory a lot of the time.
At least that is my take on it.
This!
Yeah! I was trying to put into words what was cause me dissonance while I was watching this video, and that was definitely it.
+
Thank you for articulating my feelings
I think you could put it that way: If a nazi were writing kid friendly propaganda, his superhero wouldn't be THAT different . He'd be strong, handsome, virtuous, he'd be friendly with the government, he'd lock up villains... probably most of the villains would be socialist, jewish, POC or LGBT, but the superhero themselves would be the boyscout type you'd expect from the genre.
That said, superhero ensembles, especially if they are diverse, can efficiently neutralize the undertones you mention, because suddenly the power is not absolute, it is shared.
Thank you for injecting some positivity and optimism into discussion of these genres. I agree that much of it does fall into this kind of limiting dichotomy and that there are other less cynical lenses through which to critique. Solid video. Glad you used Spider-Verse to drive it all home, too. Made me feel hopeful, which is something I’m seeking more than ever these days. Cheers 🙏
💕💖 loved this!! i think the whole cynicism thing is a result of our fear of sincerity (maybe fear isn’t the right word but you know what i mean). it’s nice to see mha be so unapologetically sincere in its portrayal of superheros, it reminds me why i love the genre
I just never really get into the cynical superhero stories (except maybe Deadpool, but that’s more black comedy). Because the appeal for me has always been people who, through whatever circumstances, have the ability to do more than others around them and are now trying to do the right thing. Because I know that there are people out there who want to do good, but for whatever reason can’t.
It’s why, no matter how flawed and imperfect it was, Wonder Woman is still one of my favorite superhero films (competing with Into the Spiderverse and Mask of the Phantasm). I bawled in the theater when Diana climbed up into No-Man’s Land to save a town that wasn’t part of her objective just because the people there needed help. And again when Steve sacrificed himself to stop a horrible weapon from being unleashed and that sacrifice ultimately convinced Diana that humanity was worth fighting for even when staring the worst example in the face. The movie reminded me of what superheroes were originally. They did good just for the sake of it.
I’ll admit that I’m more skeptical about humanity than Rousseau was (and definitely hard disagree about the sexism). But it’s less that people are inherently corrupt and more that people can be stupid and easy to manipulate (which describes the large portion of MAGA folks).
I mean the point with rousseau is that a poorly conceived society corrupts. like if you were lost in the wilderness and you met a MAGA person, odds are you'd be able to collaborate, but the misery of late stage capitalism and the MAGA cult turn basically good people into pieces of shit. so I think you have a pretty Rousseau-esque view of humanity.
I feel like Wonder Woman would've had way more of a punch if they had just taken Ares out of it. Him being behind the war just sorta makes the 'sometimes humans are just assholes' thing pointless.
@@shagohad3 Yeah, but it’s a superhero movie; they needed a final enemy for her to fight. And for what it’s worth, I think how he was handled in the movie wasn’t bad, with him just influencing people who already had violent inclinations. It’s a decent compromise.
Into The Spider-Verse was terrible though... misunderstood Spider-Man completly and also pushed a token instead of the real deal.
@@animeotaku307 I think the issue was more that the final confrontation was pretty unmemorable as far as smashy smashy CGI battles are concerned.
Also, Ares having his 1918 mustache in the mythological flashback certainly was... a choice.
The fact that the humans still had WW2 and its atrocities after ares was offed for good also loomed over the ending, which certainly puts the victory into perspective. And raised the question of what the fuck Wonder woman was doing then.
This is so good. Everytime someones comes with the "all superheroes are fascists" thing I always ask "what about spider-man?" Both Peter and Miles are guys who help arround - it's "your neighborhood spider-man" after all. How are they power hungry fascists?
I feel the only point of harm superheroes do are their constant contact with the police. Even in Gotham, where it's cannonicaly entirely corrupt - and as such, negative even for the mainstream standard - you still get the "good cops" that help Batman.
Even Spider-Man, who the cops frequently antagonize, often has such "good cops" characters.
While superheroes aren't the only doing this, I wonder what the genre would look like without it, with a more critical outlook on the police.
@ULGROTHA I feel like some of them, like Moon Knight, kinda evolved in this weird thing and, at least on what I've seen of him, his cop background doesn't come up much.
I think the worst case of this is when the main motivation for the cop is that "they can't go after the real criminals within the system, man" and resort to vigilantism to """solve""" this. The Punisher approach to vigilantism that it's all a war and as such it justifies every bad thing they do and is often used in real life to justify police brutality.
"Showing law enforcement in not-a-negative-light is harmful" is the most unhinged take I have ever read in my life. Go outside more, kid.
@@CelestialNerd336 there's plenty evidence out there that cops don't really do much to prevent crime and in fact, increase instances of violence wherever they go. Cops are simply bad at what they are supposed to do and yet, media only ever show them as competent and essential to society. It's propaganda.
Not all art that has the trope of the good cop is automatically bad, but police apologetics can gtfo wherever they are.
There were nearly 700,000 full time peace officers (not even counting reserves and non-sworn public safety) in 2019, yet only around 1,000 fatal officer involved shootings. That's less than .1% of personnel, so miss me with your nonexistent 'plenty' of evidence.
'Media' does not always portray police as infallible, or even benevolent. Ever seen 'Dear White People'? Anything by Shonda Rhimes? The Wire? The Shield? Some misguided person just tagged me with a link to Renegade Cut, who is part of Breadtube, which very rarely has nice things to say about law enforcement. Again, you're painting with a brush so broad it should be in a Bugs Bunny cartoon.
Statistics aside (although they're overwhelmingly on my side, when not manipulated by cop-haters), I have personally seen peace officers rescue people from suicide attempts, take detailed reports of misconduct allegations against their peers to insure a proper investigation, and go out of their way to play psychologist for inmates crying in their jail cells.
Look, I'm sure you're not a bad person. But like much of the audience of these content creators, your words only make sense to people caught in a virulently anti-police echo chamber that is almost entirely divorced from the general public. Go outside and talk to normies. Talk to your friends and family in law enforcement. You'll find that, depending on where you live, most of them are active allies in bettering our flawed criminal justice system.
There's a spectrum of violence of which killings are in the end of.
"Cops don't kill as much as you think" isn't such a good point, specially when cops walk free from them even when evidence of wrongdoing is clear.
There's no justification for the employment and actions of police during protests.
Consider that your experiences and of your friends and family with the police aren't universal. If I went asking my friends and family how they feel about the police, the response would be far from positive.
I’m looking forward to watching this! Our culture needs to look on the bright side of life more. And it sucks how it feels people so often want to tear something down for showing genuine goodness nowadays.
I like writing stuff all across the idealism-cynicism spectrum, though ultimately I do want to have some optimism in there. Like, I’ve been writing what is basically Arthurian fan fiction lately, and I’ve seen some BS takes on how these types of stories somehow support feudalism or whatever, or how they’re unrealistic. Knights are basically the medieval equivalent of superheroes after all if you get down to it. Despite the fact that these stories are way more tragic and complex than people give them credit for, yet good and joy still exists, and it’s that balance I really like. Hell I’ve been brainstorming a lot of heavily religious stuff recently despite being agnostic, and I think I’m drawn to the idealism that religion often preaches people should live by.
I like writing dark stuff, but in the end I usually like coming back to the conclusion that ultimately, good ideals are worth fighting for.
Can't say I agree. It feels like you can't criticize anything without getting hit with "yOu'Re ToO nEgAtIvE!" For example, newspapers just love to run stories about an office paying for their coworkers' rent or something. If you point out that these are repackaging stories of people who are exploited (the underpaid employee & everyone else who has to sacrifice because the CEO won't give them a raise) as inspirational, people get mad because they want to feel good, even though that's totally what they're doing. Because of this, the problem is never addressed.
I think cynicism can make things really one dimensional.
That scene in Spiderman 2 is among one of the greatest scenes in a comic book film
Oh my gosh this tickles my fancy so well. Thank you for blending so many different interests that I don't hear talked about much together (the arts, scholars, anime, popular shows). Thank you!!
1:17 "He also thought women would torment men if we were taught to read...and ummm...I mean that's my goal every day!"
XD
Me: [breaks down into tears the second princess starts playing the "United States of Smash" scene]
Princess: "so beautiful I a l m o s t c r i e d"
Me: [shoving gummy melatonin in my mouth and ugly sobbing at the spiderman 2 follow up] "o worm"
This is the best video about the superhero genre I've seen in a long time.
While I love what you're saying here about the fundamental misunderstanding a lot of people have of Superman, I also do think you're projecting too much of your affection for the Justice League onto their analogues on the Boys, who only serve to share the same powersets and aesthetics as them but none of their background and upbringing. Homelander simply isn't Superman, even a non-cynical take on his character history would likely still lead to fascism.
I also personally feel there needed to be a balance in the superhero genre. Yes, the industry was filled with bad, bad cynical take on superheroes post-Watchmen-but that time has long past, we're in the Marvel Cinematic Universe era now, where superheroes are innately designed to be awe-inspiring and hopeful. The new media these stories are told now, TV and films, haven't really had their "But maybe superheroes are bad" phase yet until the Boys. And what a breath of fresh air it is even to someone who's tired of gritty superhero comics.
I'm not sure I find most of the MCU heroes to be hopeful or awe-inspiring, more quip spewing smartasses really.🤷♂️
I dunno, I just find myself struggling to get invested in those stories. Maybe I'm becoming the cynical one...
This. Agree with everything you said.
Dawg have you actually read The Boys comics? Garth Ennis fucking hates superheroes and that is 100% what his stories revolve around. He's not even remotely subtle about his intense hatred of any hopeful and altruistic superhero story.
Sure, the tv show dialled this cynicism down a lot, but Homelander was without a doubt created as a reference to Superman.
On point, and I still think the JL and JLU cartoons are the best depiction of the DC characters to date because they made them nuanced and layered and flawed without compromising their moral foundation, which is just as realistic as anything.
18:47 this this this. People are so distrusting of genuinely kind people. There just always has to be an agenda when there is none. So sad
Can I like this video more then once? I love my unironically heroic heroes.
That scene in JLU is so, so good!!!
" Good doesn't mean perfect"- Superman
Adding to engagement... Some positive feedback: The script for this video is very good! Clear structure presenting great arguments to deliver a hopeful message during a dreadful year that is 2020. And using Miles and Into the Spider-verse near the end is just *chef’s kiss.*
I haven’t seen either show but I’m interested in checking them out now. Thanks for this video!
i'm glad you caught up with MHA, i like their take on heroes as public servants, leave it to japan to make them pay taxes lol
Earned my sub for that fantastic "torment men" joke. 10/10
Stories that are stories meant to just bring joy are powerful in their own right. These tales and characters have the incredible power to carry hope into the dark places stretched through and around reality. And that is no small thing.
This is only the second video of yours that I've seen, but it has honestly really helped me to feel just a little bit more optimistic about life, the world, and humanity. Even if it's only a bit, that bit means more than I can adequately communicate. I'm going to be keeping an eye out for your videos in the future.
Wow her face just lights up when she starts talking about My Hero haha love it
Preach!!! I'm right there with you. I have always thought the point of Super heroes is to show us something to strive for. especially Superman
If you watch the first five seasons of "Supernatural", what you find is Kripke`s a cynical humanist as in "Sure, people suck but everything else sucks more so there!We`re all we`ve got"
There’s also Gabriel’s more optimistic outlook on humanity, in that “sure they’re flawed, but they always strive to do better and that’s awesome.”
@@animeotaku307 Exactamundo, love Gabriel!:)
omfg this is amazing and nails so much of what i’ve felt and attempted to express for years while lacking the talent you have... also MIDORIYA IS MY BB TOO 🥰
RUclips showed me a recruitment ad for the police on this video, smh
7:40 I was so hyped for Cyclops embracing Magneto's philosophy and Marvel just...squandered it
I couldn't tbh Cyclops was one of the cornerstone of the X-Men landscape now he's such an ass
It makes my heart happy that you appreciate the wonderful good boy that is Deku.
I actually got a good description of the Superman paradigm from Bob Chipman. (At the time I was researching that Superman gets to be a messianic figure but Supergirl and Power Girl do not -- In their stories the world levels up to match them, and they get government agencies that regulate them and make sure they're _team players._ )
Here we go, from Bob Chipman:
_The fantasy of Superman is about the power to stabilize and restore. Superman doesn’t create good situations. He protects them and builds them back up when they fall down._ _That’s why this character and his world only work when approached from a place of optimism:_ _…Superman only makes sense in the context of a worldview where good is the default setting of the universe and the job of a being of godlike power who aims to do good is to fix things when they break and thwart evil from spoiling the natural state of goodness._
_Because if the universe is not good at its core then the moral responsibility of that same godlike being who wants to do good is to assume power absolutely and make the universe good by force._
_And that’s not Superman._
Even in the 1978 _Superman_ we were beginning to see that this kind of hero is becoming obsolete. It's not that there aren't natural disasters, though our criminal element is too few for Batman or Jessica Fletcher, and could be reduced more by social programs (which is to say they're typically crimes of desperation). Much the way that asset forfeiture by law enforcement displaces more value than all the burglary, elite deviance (white collar crime) causes more death, devastation and cost than all petty crime _by orders of magnitude._ And if we could prevent Subprime Mortgage Crises and Deepwater Horizon disasters, that would do way more for society than catching every street crook.
US prisons (many of them private) are comparable in treatment to Soviet gulags or German concentration camps. This isn't Superman's world anymore.
I feel like Umbrella Academy's characters strike the perfect middle ground. The heroes there are flawed, but not to the exaggerated extend of The Boys.
humans have a natural inclination to empathy and compassion. we are just living in a world in which those who lack such heartful qualities are in control. we outnumber those who are empathy-deficient and we can organize to overcome them if enough of us have the heroic nature and community support to try
I'm glad to see videos like this happening. Although the idea of cynical and corrupted superheroes is nothing new, I feel the ideas as they are in the modern context as brought about by Alan Moore and Frank Miller have been stretched as far as they can go. Though DC characters leave themselves open for parody because they are so well known, they also inspire the desire to do good when written by people who care about the characters. Probably my all time favorite episode of JLU is "Flash and Substance" because it shows how great of a hero the Flash really is and that he operates differently than the more serious heroes for a reason. That he's a hero because he wants to do the right thing, which is beautifully summed up in the last line of the episode where he tells Orion, "Hey, the bad guys went down and nobody got hurt. You know what I call that? A really good day."
Long story long, loved this video. :)
I do really love that episode, because it shows a method of handling crime that we as a society should aspire to.
OMG praise the algorithm, this is such a good analysis! It gave me a fresh perspective that I've never considered before!
I'm just still hesitant to get really involved in studying old philosophers. I feel like people like you (Melina) are just so much more important to listen to and understand. What you have to say about Hobbes and Rousseau both is so much more relevant than they are now. The idea of people still considering choosing between the two actually disgusts me just a bit. You, on the other hand, are looking at both, separating the chaff, and evolving the discourse.
These philosophers of course can’t make things relevant to the pop culture of the 21st century, but that’s not why you engage with them. We look at them because of the timeless nature of their works, with ideas taken from their time that ring forth into the future. The discourse always evolves because time moves forward, but to discard them as relics of our past is to reject growth itself. By only consuming modern interpretations of the world we are inherently limiting ourselves, sticking our minds into the present. Old philosophers will have many comments that today seem despicable, and I have no problem with calling them out for that, but to disengage with the ugliness of our past and only want to consume what the modern mind sees as acceptable will limit us.
Voltaire is a fun fucker, and contra points stands by David Hume despite being racist and Scottish
I want to be really clear that I am in NO way slighting Melina's interpretation of Hobbes and Rousseau, but the advantage of reading old philosophers yourself (and not even in a comprehensive way--just having some unfiltered acquaintance with their writing) can help you evaluate how people use them. Both in the sense of: it's interesting that Melina chose those two philosophers to illustrate the dichotomy she was talking about, *and* in the sense of: that guy is really twisting what X philosopher said to try add authority to his argument.
tl;dr Learning things gives you tools to evaluate stuff on the basis of your own knowledge. But that's true for anything, and if old dead philosophers really aren't your bag, that's okay too. ;)
Yeah, the thing is you kinda have to read old philosophy to do current philosophy. The whole field is one of "standing on the shoulders of giants."
Every new generation of ideas is in response to the last generation's, so in order to understand what 21st century philosophers are saying you gotta read 20th century philosophy, and to understand that stuff you gotta read 19th century philosophy, and so on....
It's hard saying something new in the discourse when you don't know what all has already been said.
But yeah, nobody should just read a 17th century philosopher like Hobbes and then base their whole worldview around it, that would be a pretty bullshit strategy. But I also think reading someone more modern like Angela Davis is way less useful without having first read someone like Hobbes or Rousseau.
+
Oh my, did Green Arrow said "I am an old leftie" 09:32? Love that. Also, you made me be more in love with Spider-Man, Miles and Peter, I needed that
venture brothers really should be part of this conversation
why doesn’t melina have more hype??? this is one of the best and most interesting video essays I’ve seen in 2020
All Might is low key a reverse weeaboo
I think the critique is more nuanced than you're giving it credit for. It's not that Superman or any other superhero is literally fascist - it's that there exists an underlying reactionary narrative of "I am driven by an internal moral compass to do good, but this manifests almost entirely in attacking criminals and those who oppose the status quo, instead of fighting the violence inherent in the status quo which creates both crime and other suffering." It's a cop narrative.
Now, of course, there's more to the superhero genre than that: Most superhero stories do not fit this mold perfectly, and many subvert it or reject it. And this one theme is not the only theme of the superhero genre. But it is one of the themes of the superhero genre, and it's worth being critical of it.
The problem with this position is that once superheroes seek to change the world by changing the status quo, they become another interest group attempting to impose their beliefs on the world. However, unlike regular people they are neither bound by traditional logistics nor legal obstacles. The sheer disparity in power between a mid-tier hero and the average Joe outstrips the relative advantages people get via social standing and money. And this deliberately ignores the insane capacity of heavyweights like Black Adam and Martian Manhunter.
If Superman decides to overthrow a dictatorship in the Middle East, most people will cheer him on under the naive assumption he will continue to advocate for humanity's best interests. But if he is suddenly inspired to censor democracies due to them being massively inefficient bureaucratic systems prone to corruption, who's going to stop him? Which individuals can stop him who can't pulverize moons into atoms? And if he bewitched the superhero community into backing him up, mankind is screwed.
It's not like comics haven't covered this ground in the past. Magneto's whole history contends with the topic. He has an inner struggle between the drive to guarantee equity and justice for his fellow mutants versus his conviction that such a world can only be brought about by force. Yet it's the antithesis for one man to dictate what the future should be. The same dilemma formed the basis of the Justice Lords arc in JLU and Remender's Uncanny X-Force dystopian future.
Ironically the notion superheroes have the prerogative to exercise their superior powers to bring about change, ignoring the laws and social norms mere mortals must follow, is fascist (in the proper sense of the term, not the regurgitated invective). That was one of the foundational beliefs of Italian syndicalism, which was later adopted by the National Socialist Party: "we are extra-state actors tasked with bringing about our vision of the future by the most expedient means necessary".
@@chodori2041 but that’s what superhero’s are them doing stuff is there ideals. Like she said with My Hero Academia it’s about hope and all that but they ignore other issues like corruption or how society rejects those who are different
@@shanespencer8754
*but that’s what superhero’s are them doing stuff is there ideals*
That's also an apt description of a dictator. The difference is a superhero acts in accordance with the general social norms and ethics of the time (which is why the Punisher is distinctly referred to as a vigilante).
*they ignore other issues like corruption or how society rejects those who are different*
I can tell you didn't read anything in my post. Wide-scale problems in a society are best solved by wide-scale solutions, not an elite - which is what superheroes ultimately are - posturing as moral busybodies.
@@chodori2041 first off their are a number of times multiple super hero’s have gone against social norms to get something done.
@@shanespencer8754
Our norms, not the comic book universe's - it's easy to make the "public" bad in fiction. You'll be hard pressed to find any examples that don't portray the involved heroes as moral compromised or villainous.
Its nice to hear some positive words about Superman and Cyclops its real refreshing, thank you!
Thank you for this video. The "Evil Superman" thing is super lazy in my mind and incredibly boring but it seems to be the only place a lot of "serious, adult" filmmakers/writers/producers know to do with superheroes. That extends to cynical superhero takes also. They're always predictable and carry a sense of sneering down their noses at the superhero genre, fans, etc. There's always an element of "Take that, neeerds!"
The most recent issue of Captain America has a back up story called the Promise where Steve is speaking at the funeral of a friend of his who came here for a better life for his family. It's a really frank discussion of the realities of America compared to it's ideals and how Captain America fits into that and it's fantastic
I don't like cynical heroes because they tell people humanity is bad no matter what they do. They also tell people that they shouldn't look up to anyone. Telling those kinds of messages, especially to kids creates more cynical people instead of inspiring people to be better
Appreciate the picture you used of Deku. He’s my unapologetic favorite character.
I really loved watching this video as it shows why heroes are cool. I think heroes are fundamentally loved because they help people. Any of us can be a hero simply by making someone feel better about themselves. It’s important to uphold the idea that people being kind and caring for others is important, that no matter how hard it can get we can always try to be better. Cynicism is only good when you’re disappointed with reality, but at your core you hold ideals that drive you to try and improve. Cynicism is not an excuse to not give a shit. It is always better to give a shit.
I think my biggest issue with overly cynical outlooks and grimdark motifs in general is that they don't really serve a purpose. People and society are bad... okay and? I feel like well written versions of cynicism and grimdark will at least try to say something more about how to improve the world or at least prevent reaching that lowest point. But when it's just used for "realism" it tends to be satisfied with just being brooding and depressing without really trying to make any change or impact.
I think that a lot of the time, they are both cathartic and a wake up call. I know I really like The Boys because sometimes I feel like the only idiot going "why are we celebrating this, this is bullshit, why can't anyone see this is bullshit" (I'm thinking in particular of the "girl power" scene in Season 2)