Nobody Cares About Your C-List Heroes
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2023
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Nobody Cares About Your C-List Heroes
C-List, D-List, however you want to describe them, most superheroes are on the rung they are for a reason: Because they aren’t compelling enough to gain attention on their own unless they’re attached to a more popular, well rounded hero. Part 3 of 3 of my “state of the union” on superhero films.
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C- List heroes aren't the problem. It is the horrible writing creating the terrible stories, that is being told.
Yes, this video feels like it's fighting against MovieCynic's other videos, essentially arguing that rehashing more famous characters, rather than developing obscure ones which allow more freedom and creativity for the core of the character, is a good thing. What we need are better writing, focus on intriguing and inspiring characters ... pulling the A-listers brings the early audience yes, good for $$, but for the wrong, short-lived reasons.
Iron Man was my favorite as a kid ... but even I knew then, and now, that he was never better than B-list. His success now is almost entirely due to the movies, not the nostalgia - even I like him more now. You even use Guardians as an example, a perfect example of minor characters done well.
I came here to say this, then discovered this comment! It’s not the C-list heros that make James Gunn succeed. It’s James Gunn, the writing, and the heart brought to the movie that makes the C-list heroes succeed.
@@stcredzeroIndeed Gun made them greater than they were, hardly anybody knew about the Guardians beforehand compared to now.
I think you misinterpreted the argument: It's that these C-list heroes aren't able to succeed based on just name recognition and pretty pictures. They need something deeper, like what created the mainstay heroes like Batman or Spider-Man. Just having someone get a super suit and be otherwise empty is not going to cut it, because "no one cares".
You have to write in a way that will get people invested in said character, rather than treating it as a given.
Exactly any character can turn out to be a great movie given if the story is good. Dude keeps bashing the THIRD Antman , apparently ppl love the character since they seen the first two....smh
The fact that Ironheart begged her teacher to tell her she couldn't achieve her dreams because she's an African-American women is hilarious. The fact the couldn't think of a better origin story is pretty sad though.
When WILL they stop with the victim thing ?? It's embarrassing .
@@thomasvarley380 until it stops happening in real life...?
@@km67654 Only people ruining life for black folks in America , is black folks in America . I feel sorry for the decent , well adjusted ones . These rappers should maybe try singing about love instead of singing about shooting dead other black people for no damn reason . I dont hear any other colour singing songs glorifying killing black people , only black people . To educated peoples , it literally beggars belief .
@@km67654Victims come in all races, it's not an African American thing
@@vb2806 being told that you will never achieve your dreams is being a victim of bullying. Being told that you will never achieve your dreams because you are African American is being a victim of racial bullying. There is a difference. Yes they both happen, but that doesn't make the other one less valid.
What matters is the writing, not the “popularity” of the heroes. Iron Man was a B-List hero. Guardians was a C-List team. 😁😁
Watch the video first
I did! Just stating a fact
@@TheMovieCynic your video seems to put too much emphasis on the popularity of the characters instead of the writing. Thats why a lot of people are saying this.
C-List? I could accept Nova as a C-lister; Guardians of the Galaxy were a goddamn D-list! XD
It's all about execution. The Guardians of the Galaxy and Peacemaker were nobodies until James Gunn came along and made movies that launched them into the public eye.
Bro Peacemaker was trash so that’s not even a good comparison lol. And Gunn is notorious for not following the comics
@@ixlewerx Yes it is. People are hyped for Season 2 of Peacemaker because of how he handled he handled his character. And the Guardians of the Galaxy are iconic now because of the film trilogy he directed. Not following the source material exactly can by a good thing on occasion: not every incarnation of Batman is the same, but each version has it's merits.
@@taurusstudios5497 ok so when Gunn doesn’t follow the characters and butchers the comics it’s fine, but when other directors do it it’s a problem? Jesus Christ you people are so biased. And no, the only people that are excited for Peacemaker Season 2 are lonely comic book virgins who are still obsessed with the MCU instead of growing up and moving on. Plus his DC slate is just nothing but C and D list characters instead of just focusing on the characters we give a shit about like Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg, Martian Manhunter, or the entire Justice League. Gunn is just a one trick pony. If you want a director that emulates Gunn’s style but better, there’s Sam Raimi. And he made the best Marvel Trilogy of all time with the original Spider-Man films so stfu lol
@@ixlewerx Dude there are other good examples of comic book adaptations that deviate from the source material like Invincible and the Boys. Besides, Gunn is literally slated to direct a Superman and Batman film in the near future.
@@taurusstudios5497Wrong comparison, though. Invincible deviates very little from the comics, just what's needed in order to adapt the story into a show, the core of the characters and main events from the story are all there. As for The Boys it was _necessary_ to deviate from the comic in order to have a good product: it isn't an adaptation as much as "Good idea you got, now let's re-use it for something that isn't actual garbage but could acttally interest a sane audience.".
One of the main problems with C-list heroes nowadays is that they are written to be soulless representations of ethnicities or cultures instead of fully taking the crucial time to properly develop and grow as characters. I’m all for diverse casts of heroes, as long as they are written well and there’s an actual reason for people to care about them.
Funny how our reason for caring about Captain America is no more sophisticated than "Because he's a good person." Guess complexion beats complexity.
So you're just pretending Moon Knight and Austin McConnell's Superzeroes franchise don't exist.
@@futurestoryteller he is a good person thrust into a world that is not
I don't care what your dumbass opinions have to say about it, that is compelling as fuck
@@LiMe251 I don’t know about the Superzeroes franchise so I can’t speak for it.
Moon Knight on his own is a very cool and pretty well-written character, so I can see him as an exception.
@@aninother Superzeroes is a franchise made using public domain superheroes (so technically it's about Z-listers)
At this point Star Wars and the MCU are nothing but ashes on a broken mountain
And they don't even habe to. They lgit have both the Xmen and the F4 but don't use them to build hype around their eventual return
I think there's contract issues for both of those properties. And being that they've had 3 mid to terrible FF films and you've got to find an entire X Men cast, and then explain how they fit into the MCU after 15 years is problematic.
Mark my words; We'll see Comcast and Apple fight over who gets both of those IPs in by at least 2026 once Disney shoots itself in the foot for the last time.
It started with endgame. I don't care what anyone says.... that was a bad movie with 5 great moments to distract from the garbage
@@johndodo2062 💯💯
Dr Strange had a compelling origin story. A gifted but extremely prideful and arrogant neurosurgeon who lost the use of his skillful hands because of an accident. He slowly lose everything that made him whole, his profession, research, wealth and prestige. Down to his last possessions, he goes on a journey because of a miracle which goes against everything he has ever believed in hoping to turn his life around. We can all relate to such story. Too bad Marvel didn't do too much to capitalize on this character.
Nuance is hard if not impossible when you're controlled by the market driven fears of investors like these big corporate movies mostly are
Yeah and No Way Home basically ruined the character completely for me........ heard MOM didn't do him any favors either.
@@aaronaguilar4004MoM sucked ass
Lionsgate Dr Strange?
@@aaronaguilar4004 yep No Way Home made him a compassionless monster and MOM just made him an annoying and quippy Iron Man rip off. It also ruined Wanda (my favourite character) and her character arc.
In fairness, Iron Man and Thor were C-list characters before the MCU. The only Marvel properties anyone ever cared for were Spider-Man and the X-Men, as evidenced by the fact that when Marvel was in trouble in the 80’s and 90’s, they sold their movie rights away. Nobody wanted the other characters.
True gotg were c listers and now because of the mcu they’re household names you just need talented people craft the stories behind and in front of the camera and success will come
Fantastic four
@@gaylosbernandez579 fantastic four would have been bigger if it wasnt for the fact they got 3 terrible movies in a row.
@@vice2versa before that, they were one of the main reasons people liked marvel, along with Spiderman and the xmen
@@gaylosbernandez579and Hulk
I don’t really think your takeaway is correct. Writing is truly the only thing that matters. If it’s an A list, or Z list, none of it matters if the writing is bad. But at the same time, if the writing is solid, either will work. You can have bad A listers and great z listers simply because of the writing.
Agreed!! The guardians of the galaxy were C list characters but you put them in the hands of a master storyteller BOOM 🙏
@@zarabee2880 right. That’s why the new suicide Squad was so good too. James Gunn just knows how to write good characters regardless of their comic origin
Exactly people only care about the hype
Was about to write this!! Iron-Man was a B-list superhero b4, then his movie came out. Through time and good writing, he became a household name. 😁😁
Exactly,
In reality Iron man and Cap were C list (arguably B list) heroes. Its because of the movies that elevated them to A status. The true A listers are Spiderman, fantastic 4 and the xmen. I feel like what made cap and Tony interesting was the care that they took to tell a cohesive story and the certain modifications that they did to the characters. In the older comics Cap is just a guy who can throw a frisbee however the Russo brothers turned that boy scout personality into a complex character and not to mention a fighting machine. I 100% agree that Marvel thinks that slapping their logo on anything make the audience line up at the cinema.
No iron man and cap were b list. People outside the comic book community knew them through mediums such as cartoons. But only a tiny percentage of audience within the comic book community knows who iron heart or shang chi are. They are d list and below characters and there's a good reason why, they simply sucked. You don't build a franchise around such obsucre characters.
I would argue against F4 being nearly as famous as X-Men and Spiderman
People forget that iron man wasent the biggest hero when his movie came out. It's not the popularity of the hero. It is the quality of it.
@lamasperra50 Iron Man a C tier hero? Stark and Fury were always central heroes in the MCU comic books before 2008. Please educate yourself.
@@bal9187 if we're talking about popularity? Yes, Iron Man was c tier, B tier at best. Being relevant in some stories doesn't mean a character is popular for the big public. A kid back in 2006 would never really ask their parents to dress up as "Iron Man", that's a fact. In the comics, both She-Hulk and sunspot have led teams of heroes (A-Force and the U.S.Avengers) before appearing on tv, but nome of them is "A tier" either
@@MizuhiroUkato Maybe not. But kids also didn't ask to be dressed as professor X, what's your point? Yes he is more popular after 2008 but to say C or B tier is bs. Ironman in the 90s was at least A tier. Again, this black girl superhero is the last letter of the alphabet if Ironman is C.
@@bal9187 if you mean Monica Rambeau, yes, she has always been WAY less popular than iron man and a lot more characters, just like the guardian were also way less popular than iron man who was ALSO less popular than spiderman, hulk, wolverine (and some of the x-men, of course). Popularity with general public is different from relevance inside the universe of comics, Wanda has always been a powerhouse in comics but was often forgotten by the general public (and most people still don't know how impactful she can be)
@@bal9187 Monica/Spectrum IS below C tier, NO ONE knew her, even some comic book reader would have a hard time knowing her, just like the guardians of the galaxy before the movies. That's a whole other level of unpopular
As you mentioned, people who are actually into comic books WANTED to see the C-list heroes in some capacity, but that's only because we wanted them interacting positively and teaming up with the big name A-listers. But now since intersectionality has deemed that all straight white male heroes "le bad", they've shafted or emasculated almost all the A-listers because coincidentally they're straight, white and or males. When you don't have the popular characters holding up the foundation of your verse, who the hell would care about seeing no-name nancies now? (especially smug snarky ones)
The reason why the MCU has the Avengers is because they were C list characters. The problem with the MCU is that it’s a Disney property. The right move after the Inifinty Saga should have been to take a two or three years off. “ I can’t miss you if you never go away!” - Cornette
It's not about B or C tier heroes, it's about good and bad writing.
The guardians of the galaxy game is praised by most of those who play it, and the Avengers game was trashed by most of who played that.
So Guardians did succeed outside film, at least for this one example.
It's really just a non factor. Any goofball can be made into something audiences will enjoy with sufficiently good writing.
GOTG were irrelevant and are incredibly liked and successful. It's not an issue introducing characters that haven't gotten the spotlight.
Iron Man and especially the Guardians were C list comic heroes. It was the writhing and actual care for details that made them popular
Exactly, we don't need the most popular hero, we just need a good story. Having an A list lead didn't make Thor 4 any better than any other current mid superhero movie.
Exactly. It's the writing that matters more than the characters.
It's annoying how they're doing the "passing the mantle" films before establishing the predessor hero.
We didn't get a Hank Pym Ant-Man even tho he's a founding member of the Avengers in the comics, nor did we get Ted Kord Blue Beetle before Jaime. It makes us less likely to care for these newbies if we have no connection to their mentor
Guardians of the Galaxy were D or F tier. Prior to the MCU that property was considered unfilmable.
Otherwise, the MCU was built on top of the C tier because they didn't have the rights to the A and B tier: Spider-Man, X-Men, Fantastic Four.
I dont think the c list heroes is the issue. When you consider that before the mcu, the avengers were basically c list heroes themselves. Main problem is the writing no longer making any sense and the universe feeling disjointed and like it's actively ignoring itself
Every movie is about a perfect women that just needs to "find her power" and then she kicks ass without any flaws or setbacks. The only setbacks are society telling her she's not perfect
Heres the thing.
We don't hate female characters, we only hate annoyingly/poorly-written female characters
female heroes are awesome I'm just tired of them being written with zero flaws or mistakes, putting down male characters to make themselves look cooler artificially, Tony didn't have to insult Pepper or call her an idiot to become Iron man, he knew he was a fuck up but he worked on himself because of it.
@@LilyApus lol that's the thing, Hollywood wants to act like before this woke nonsense that audiences never went to see movies with female heroes, which is just bullshit. Audiences will literally watch any good movie, if it's well written and well made, audiences in America literally do not care, we watched movies with black heroes, Asian heroes, female heroes, even back in the 80s and 90s, you just have to write them on ways that make sense for their character, and give them obstacles to overcome.
Ironman? Low B to C list hero.
Captain America? B List hero
Hulk? B list, Maybe A list, but had the worse performing movie of phase 1
Thor? C list superhero.
The MCU was built on your argument that "no one cares about C-list heroes" How do you think Heroes move up to A-list heroes? Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor are all now A list and arguably as iconic to the Marvel brand as Spider-man is. The avengers were Marvel's at best 3 rated team; Fantastic 4 and X-Men above them. You absolutely can build movies off of low tiered heroes. Hell, the Guardians of the Galaxy weren't even C-list for Marvel and did well and had little connection to the rest of the MCU until Infinity War.
The issue has nothing to do with the character in question, but the quality of the movie as a whole.
I haven't been an MCU fan at all before I was bored one day and watched "Return of the first Avenger" in a cinema. That's the "german" title of Captain America: Winter soldier. I knew CA existed, but he was far from being a priority for me, other that X-Men, F4 and Spidey. But that movie kinda hooked me in and I've watched every single MCU movie since then, right up until and including Shang-Chi and Dr Strange in the Mom. Not Eternals tho. Interesting enough I didn't even watch the earlier Phase 1 movies until I needed sth to bridge the waiting time between Infinity War and Endgame.
What I'm getting at: I don't really care if a character is A- B- C- or Z-List, as long as the trailer convinces me and the movie keeps the trailer's promises. But with what Marvel (and DC) have done these past 5-ish years, I have my doubts if I EVER feel the need to punish myself enough to watch one of their movies again.
Nah bruh, Hulk was at the top of A-tier. He has always been the most iconic superhero alongside Spider-Man, Superman and Batman. Like, which kid didn't know the Hulk?
Don't confuse the popularity of a superhero's _mythos_ with that of the superhero itself. Yes, the average person cannot really name any of Hulk's supporting characters, but the same applies to Superman (besides Lex Luthor, _maybe_ Zod but I'd argue that's because of the movie if anything). However, ask somebody who knows absolutely nothing about superheroes to name a few, Hulk is always gonna be among the first mentions.
400% Chris Pratt. Without him, I genuinely don't care about that entire world. Chris Pratt is straight up the glue that holds the guardian series together.
Also drax is cool.
Also Bradley Cooper as Rocket and Vin Diesel as Groot.
Idk, Karen Gillian as Nebula is also good
groot is beyond terrible, even with vin@@chasehedges6775
There's so much more to just Chris Pratt, even though he's a huge reason why we love gotg, expertly directed
The gardians movies were GOOD. Thats why they hold well. All these stupid takes are getting annoying.
I think you mean 'C-List Heroes written by C-list writers'
It's b list heroes by c list writers
According to Kevin Feige, Marvel chose Iron Man for the first movie of what would become MCU specifically because he was a C-list character, so no lasting harm would be done had the movie flopped.
..but is not Iron Man a pretty important character in the comics ?
@@lexnight8345 being an important character and being a popular character are 2 seperate things
@@billthedoritoguy4770 ... but people knew of him... had even animated series long before the movie.
In 1994, 8 years before Spider-Man, we had The Crow AND The Mask. Perhaps we actually need MORE C-list flicks. If you make them disconnected from the Avengers it could work well. There's a reason why everyone loved Netflix Daredevil but fear what will become of him now
Iron man was a c-lister, guardians were f tier. No one except the biggest nerds knew the guardians. Now they're the biggest thing.
True but it's about how you can market certain characters.
what's the problem with recent characters marketing@@smeekle2000
@@smokedsanjl they are all kids
"Nobody Cares About Your C-List Heroes" yet most of the MCU's A-list heroes were B & C tier heroes prior to the MCU.
They always say that. There was never any x-men crossover because it was a distinct property. You're retconning history. Do you consider spiderman a C level hero instead of the #1 marvel thing ever. Is your #1 Miss Marvel because Marvel put Marvel in his/her name? Fantastic 4 is A list? The only reason I know of those character is the movies where i knew who ironman captain america and thor were forever. I used to think Ironman was some kind of cyborg but I knew about him. Cap not A list? Captain America is to Marvel what Batman is to DC. For decades. No that doesn't contradict Spiderman is Superman in each universe in my parallel. The big 2.
@HustleTB Before the MCU casual fans knew The Hulk, Cap, Ironman, and Thor. If casual fans know these characters it means they were not B and C list. They may have been that because of comic sales but the average MCU fan is not an avid comic reader.
@@Drak976 No he's not really retconning history, just cause you know specific characters from the comics doesn't mean they weren't obscure at the time, Plus he said *Most, not "All". Iron Man being a decent example, was a relativity obscure character in the popculture zeitgeist whose only prominent roles in the comics was being on the Avengers, "Demon in a Bottle", and Civil War. Same goes for Captain America, who yes was pretty much a pop culture Icon due to WW2, but fell into obscurity as WW2 ended with Marvel putting him "on ice" for pretty much a decade, only making brief appearances here and there until Kirby picked him up. Marvel seems to agree seeing that they sold movie rights to their most popular characters they had: Spiderman, X-men, and Fantastic Four to film studios because they were going bankrupt during the 80s-00s.
The Box office number suggest "nobody cares about these C List Heroes"
The problem isn't that the MCU is introducing unknown c-list heroes, the MCU was founded on lesser known heroes like Iron Man, Captain America, and the Avengers. The problem with the MCU now, is that unlike with the start of the MCU, Marvel is failing to get us properly invested in these new heroes which only further exasperates the other problems that they are having.
Captain America is not a lesser known character and it's absurd to claim he is. I agree that Marvel is not getting fans invested but that is because they're injecting lesser known boring characters and there is no character development or character arcs. It's lazy garbage writing with no substance. The message of phase 4 and 5 has been obvious. Inject as many female characters and if fans dislike them they're toxic misogynistic fans. You're not allowed to critique any of the female characters. She-Hulk was a great character in the comics but what they've done to her in the MCU is an abomination. And if you point that out you supposedly hate women.
this foundational myth that the MCU was created out of z listers is laughable. Iron Man and Captain America and Thor were all part of the original 60s avengers. Hulk was always popular. To compare these characters to z listers like ironheart (literally an iron man ripoff) ms marvel (who has never made a profit), and teyonah paris (is she even in the comics or is she just a minor character from a disney plus spinoff show?) is insane.
@@roboninja3194 Captain America was one hundred percent a lesser known character. He was at best a B-tier character prior to the MCU and even then, he'd be towards the bottom of that list of B-tier characters. The only character that the MCU had who would be considered A-Tier was The Hulk as everyone else was pretty much at best C-Tier or below. Marvel injecting lesser known characters has nothing to do with their recent failures, the MCU is founded on a character who was completely irrelevant, Iron Man. The MCU's current problems lie in it's execution. It doesn't matter if their agenda is to "inject as many female characters as possible", it can work so long as they give us reasons to invest in these characters, just as they did for the Guardians, the Avengers, etc.
@@jacobmatthews7524Yeah, all part of the original 60s Avengers that nobody outside of hardcore comics dorks knew or gave a shit about.
All those characters sucked. Hulk was only semi-popular because of a shit TV show.
Marvel has always been propped up by Spider-Man, X-Men, and Fantastic Four.
All the others are wack-ass goofballs that were only ever made “cool” by the movies.
@@Redjack10 newsflash comics were never popular outside of weird nerds except for spider man / superman / batman. can you honestly tell me with a straight face that iron man and captain america and the pre-movie avengers are on the same tier as "ms marvel", "teyonah paris", "echo", "agatha harkness", "america chavez", etc?
I have no problem with C List heroes being given a spotlight, but I have a problem with directors and writers not giving me reasons to care about these characters. If they want to make a story about them, then give us reasons to be invested in their story. It’s simple as that. And if a good story can’t be told, leave it to somebody else who can and will
Remember GEORGE LUCAS pushed Marvel's Howard The Duck 1980s .... 🎬
Thing is, Iron Man was a solidly C-tier level hero before RDJ brought him to life. Superhero films are dying because no one has anything new to say or new to show. The MCU was built almost entirely upon the back of RDJ and his original character creation. Now you have a bunch of RDJ Iron Man knockoffs, and they all stink. Even Superman can't save you when it's being helmed by no-talents like Zack Snyder or JJ Abrams. - - Godzilla is currently dominating US theaters with its 70-year old franchise, with no advertising, pure word-of-mouth, and subtitles! I was at a showing tonight, in its 3rd week of release, and the crowds are just as big (or bigger) as week 1, with applause at the end! People will show up when quality is placed on the screen.
Disagree, to Normies, Iron Man, Thor andd Captain Amerrica were very well known. and Hulk, none of the others.
It's not the selected heroes; it's the quality of the films and shows.
Well to be fair Guardians of the Galaxy were C list heroes as well. Real problem is bad writing and direction
They were D-listers in comics, right up there with Winter Soldier and Falcon. Unless you read their stories, no one knew of them outside of the comic book community. Thor, Iron Man, Black Widow, and Nick Fury were C-listers. Before the MCU, only Hulk and Spider-Man and Wolverine were A-listers from Marvel Comics. Even Captain America was a B-lister at best before the MCU.
Real problem is the women behind the scenes who hate superheroes and are only there to pander to women, push feminism, alienate men, and brainwash children.
An important detail with Spiderman is when he first got his powers he didn't want to be a superhero and was even using his powers to try to make some extra money, whether that be wrestling or even appearing on glorified circus acts and variety shows. It was only after his uncle was killed by a robber ( who he let get away thinking it wasn't his problem to deal with ) that he realized that with great power comes great responsibility.
Ironically Iron Man was a C-List Marvel hero before the MCU.
It worked because of the similarities to Batman but Fun. At that time the Chris Nolan Batman series was smoking hot.
@@thejuniors5345Bollocks. It worked because it was brilliantly written, shot & produced. The movie was exciting, fresh & had heart. Smh Go back to cheering on your favourite Kardashian mate.
No. Iron Man was definitely B-list before the MCU.
Go back to 2007: Tony Stark is, at best, a C-lister that Marvel had been trying to unsuccessfully make happen since the seventies for the merchandising opportunity. Before Robert Downey Jr. made Iron Man relatable he was a worse Batman from the competition. The problem is that they struck gold once, and hope springs eternal that it will happen again...
if u make a good movie then anyone will love it. i think it goes without saying an a list hero in a good movie will do better than a c list hero in a good movie
B-list, you oaf. Guardians of the Galaxy were c-list
@@pyropulseIXXI c list with a list actor 👀
@@pyropulseIXXI no, the Guardians of the Galaxy were D-listers; only those really, _really_ deep into the weeds of Marvel had ever heard of them, much less have followed their comics and know their background. To be a B-lister your character needs to be known by normies; A-listers are the ones well-known enough that you wouldn't think of cancelling their series; In the case of Marvel those were the X-Men as a team and Wolverine in particular, Spider-Man and very much maybe the Fantastic Four. _Iron Man (2008)_ changed all of that, and ended up pulling the core Avengers up with them.
@@LaMirah Iron Man was definitely a b-lister. I never read or followed comics and I knew who Iron Man and Captain America were
A C--list hero alone doesnt equal boring or un interesting, how ever being put into un interesting interfered with shows/movies does. Guardians were a C-list super hero team but when they were adapted properly they became a mainstream super hero team that a lot of people loved.
Yeah blue beetle may be a lesser known hero but he's still cool. The problem is that dc obviously wanted their own version of spiderman no way home instead of making an interesting story for jaime
The only counter argument is that a lot of the Avengers - Iron Man, Thor, Captain America - were B tier at best when the MCU kicked off.
The problem is it really invested in those heroes and gave you time between films to let each one kind of have a moment. You had a whole summer where the only marvel movie was Thor or Cap, and now, they hit you with so many that it's overwhelming and they all blur together.
To add onto your point, the Guardians of the Galaxy were Z-listers and now they're house hold names, same with the actors. RDJ was at rock bottom when he did Iron-man, Hemsworth was relativity new to hollywood, Scarjo was a rom-com typecast, and Chris Evans was a B-list actor known for indie movies like Teen Movie and Scott Pilgrim.
Yeah, the problem is that they're not trying to do that again anymore. They're just making solo projects for characters that they don't know how to write.
@@friendlyastronaut6462but who was the franchise? Who is must see? Iron man, cap and Thor carry the franchise.
Prior to the MCU, there were literally only a small group of household name superheroes: Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, Wolverine, and The Hulk, in that order. THAT IS IT. Those were all the A-tier heroes, and really, only Spider-Man, Batman, and Superman were S-Tier and recognized worldwide by their logos alone. Even Wonder Woman and The Flash are B-tier, and so were Captain America and Iron Man prior to the MCU. A lot of people have selective memories or seem to think legacy characters equate to popularity, even though most normies couldn't tell you Wonder Woman's real name, weaknesses, or her arch nemesis despite her being a well-known character even in the 1970s.
So yes, every single current MCU Avenger besides Spider-Man were NOT popular in the mainstream. It took Marvel four years to get to The Avengers, and even phase 1 is severely overrated. Right now, Marvel has lost all goodwill with the public with crap like She Hulk, Wakanda Forever, Thor Love and Thunder, and so on. And DC pretty much never got a single damn thing right except casting Henry Cavill.
@@MarvinPowell1 Honestly I think people know less about Wonder Woman BECAUSE of the 1970s TV show. That's all anyone ever took from it, pop culture wise.
It's very clear that 90% of the comments did not finish the video first
Yeah, I'm 12:00 into the video and just started reading some comments, someone went as far as putting skin color as something that he mentioned in the video when he doesn't mention that at all
Batman: My parents were murdered.
Ironheart: Oh yeah? Well I…made a suit of armor in shop class!
Ironheart: Look how original and exceptional I am by borrowing someone else's identity! Also BLM!
@@pendekarlautbiruIronman: I got a heart disease after being blown up and shot, had the government turn against me and had to build my reputation back singlehandedly, I even defeated a version of the man who wiped out half of all life!
@@pendekarlautbiruironheart is making me hate black gals
C list Hero are never the problem, it's the oversaturation and horrible writing
it is really difficult to turn a B-D list hero into an A list hero but it is possible with good writing as shown with ironman and captain america. also Homelander is a good example because he was legit unknown before The Boys and now he is really iconic tbh
I was actually excited for Blue Beetle until the "Batman's a fascist" line. Literally why? A lot of people already like Blue Beetle thanks to Brave and Bold and Young Justice, they didn't need to insult the more popular ones to try and force the audience to like him.
Right!
That line sank the ship.
That was a joke, a joke ruined the entire movie for you.
@@theirongiants well first of all it was an awful joke and I'm sure they didn't think that one awful joke ruined the entire film cuz the entire film was also garbage 🤣😂😂
I thought it was Injustice 2.
Well peacemaker is a C list hero. Might even be Z list, but James Gunn and John Cena made me care about the character. 🤷♂️
Bro it doesn't matter if the character is C-tier or Z-tier. What matters is how the narrative is written for that character. Take an example of Spot. He is kinda C-tier villain in Spider-man lore but Across the Spider-verse made him a great villain.
A great villain would be talked about quite often. The spot is very forgettable.
@@RyanG0899he was not after that movie. He was one of the most talked about aspects of it. You’re just out of touch most likely
A movie that was sold on spider man
@@HardlyQuinn Yes...and Spot is a Spiderman villain that went from z teir to S Teir because of that movie which was the comments point😂
We were robbed of a Michael Keaton Batman Beyond movie for The Trash Flash.
Seriously
The reason many in the media and Online are saying 'Superhero movies are dead' is because they did what Westerns did back in the day. The studio producers, writers and directors got puffed up and convinced themselves that they had an unbeatable formula, so their work slacked off and they failed to properly adapt comics and/or made terrible choices with knock off characters, made-up and inferior versions of what made their genre great. Hence, the audience got bored, and moved on, which is what we see with things like John Wick and Top Gun. It's a cycle, and this will happen as we move into the anime adaptation phase as one piece picks up steam and they decide to do Fullmetal Alchemist, Death note (again??), Demon Slayer, etc. then, this cycle will repeat after a while, and another genre will replace this one, and on and on until the end. But this is my 0.02 cents.
I feel like a lot of people missed the point of the video, he’s not saying lesser known hero’s are bad and uninteresting he’s is saying they need to be handled correctly to be interesting and he’s right because like he said in the video, iron man, Thor, guardians of the galaxy etc. were all lesser known but because they were handled correctly people started to care about them.
Idk how they were lesser known. Kids of the 90s and 00s grew up with Avengers cartoons.
@@TheFourthWinchester yea but those shows weren’t mainstream or anything. Sure people talk about them now but that’s because the characters are popular now. Even though those shows were good they weren’t enough to reach a broader audience.
Agreed with him until he dissed plastic man
Here’s the thing: They can make us care if they write GOOD narratives & motives for their characters. Don’t overly complicate things, don’t try to do too much all at once, do try to stick to the canon you’ve already established & if you want to go in a more “campy comic book” direction, pick a character we can still root for and get behind. That’s what made GOTG work. It had camp, but it was heartfelt & fascinating.
The issue is they struggled with where to take things after Infinity War. Now they’ve got a chance to reset everything with Deadpool & Wolverine… and Fantastic Four.
Nobody cares about C-list stories.
Guardians of the galaxy proved people will care about C-list heroes.
That was luck.
@@AlexPerez-yx9xg No.
@@e13kidyes
@@tylerberg4832 So nobody likes “the boys” TV show since the superheroes weren’t already famous?
@@e13kid no
The problem isn't the b or c list characters, it's about the story and writing of these characters.
You can make a great stories with z list characters (it's easier than A listers)
Agreed!
And the writers of today DO NOT CARE about disgracing or demeaning Legacy Actors. In fact, that seems to be their Primary Goal. Destroying our Pop Cultural History sure seems to be their plan.
That's why Austin McConnell's Superzeroes is popular
The problem isn't the less known heroes. It's the writing. Bad writing can knock down even the most popular heroes. Just look at Batman and Robin. That movie made Batman into a big joke until it got a reboot with The Dark Knight. The issue is garbage writers ruining everything. It's actually exciting to learn about the more obscure heroes. I don't need to learn more about Batman or Spiderman because they have become too mainstream at this point. I need something fresh and these obscure heroes are a great option. We just need good writers that actually care about giving them a proper backstory and motivation.
Guardians of the galaxies was barely known before the movies. Nothing wrong with lesser known heroes.
Statements like this let me know probably 4 out of 5 people just comment and don’t watch the video.
@@TheMovieCynic you realize that you can comment while watching a video?
@@TheMovieCynicI think the video didn’t get this point so well, I finished it and it continues like c-list super heroes are the problem 😂
Fight Fight!!!
Plastic Man might actually be GOOD for DC Movies. He's fun, charismatic, and has a wacky power.
Oh yeah, and then there's the possibility of a Flashpoint story that actually USES Plastic Man, who is an evil, psychopathic cannibal
To be fair most of the avengers were C list characters which is why nobody bought the rights beforehand. Spiderman, X-men, and the Fantastic Four are marvel’s biggest IPs by far. They are now transitioning to those characters but it’s so much ground work they have to set just to establish them properly
I don't know man. Iron man wasn't exactly the most popular superhero either... (He was for me, but no one knew him when I was a kid)
But RDJ and the passion for his first movie was what kicked it all off and made Ironman arguably the most popular superhero of our time.
The logo effect is the single most IRRITATING thing I can think of, because my Dad falls for it all the BLOODY time! He still wants to see Dial Of Destiny just because he’s seen every Indy Jones movie despite the shit reviews
I used to fall for the logo effect with the mcu until multiverse of madness completely broke that effect by being one of the most dissapointing mcu movies I've ever watched.
The problem with MCU isn't the C-list heroes. You can write amazing stories with any character. These people behind the failure movies, give them Iron Man, Captain America, they'd still f*ck up the same. Guardians of the Galaxy is the best case to prove this. To save MCU, you need to fire these writers, get better ones who love the content, stay away from stupid agendas, and have solid direction. Nothing more.
To be fair, the entire MCU was started on the back of C-List heroes. I know that sounds weird now but back in 2008 nobody gave af about Iron Man or Captain America.
Those were solidly B-list where ant man for instance is C
@@sulacoqueen3483 Before 2008 most people (average movie-goers) hadn’t even heard of Iron Man.
I think Black Panther (Chadwick) would have been the new face of the MCU. Without him, they didn't know what direction to go in. Cap was the leader. Stark was the tech guy and financier. In their absence, Black panther was the natural choice for leader and financier, while his sister was the tech genius. All that's left are side characters too involved in their own journey to see the bigger picture. Without a Nick Fury character to find and bring them together, how will this current mess have any chance of coming together in any way that makes sense AND keep the average viewer engaged? ENDGAME indeed...
Think they will eventually replace him with his son fast forward to teenage years or adulthood to course correct to what u said
They could have then used Shang Chi since he basically *SPOILERS* inherits his dad's entire fortune, army, and power. Pair him with Dr.Strange's spiritual powers and with Shuri's intelligence, then you can have a great trio of leaders for the next phase. Unfortunately, Marvel dropped the ball big time on that one since they didnt make the character as compelling and interesting as he is in the comics.
It has nothing to do with C-list heroes. Nobody heard about Guardians of Galaxy before the movies, but the movie was unique and good, unlike the latest cape trash that has been coming out past few years.
EXACTLY!! I was just going to write that the MCU is almost entirely made up of C-Z list heroes AND Villains.
Remember when Iron Man is also a C-List Hero? Good times.
Plastic Man is pretty baller...
Which is exactly why I would not trust our current studios to make a film with him in it
Iron Man and Captain America were C list heroes until the MCU. Difference is they used to care about good writing.
What? who told you that? They both had a really popular runs beforehand. ESPECIALLY with Civil War and New avengers. Im pretty sure ironman had like 2 tv series well before the MCU
@@DiddleDallyBodanical exactly I'm pretty sure it was 3 tv shows for iron man
They werent, you're just ignorant.
@@johnmeehan7884 what ever you say champ
The people replying to this thread are clearly not older than 18 if they don’t remember this. It’s not even up for debate it’s just a fact. The big three were Spider-Man, hulk and wolverine
Thanos fading away into ash was also Marvels success fading away. They will never have a great villain again, they will never have the avengers again. They should have known it was all downhill from there.
So it’s a no on Squirrel Girl?
The thanos destroyer herself?
Man, at this point, I would actually prefer Squirrel Girl as compared to the weak , stupid woman heroes llike Ironeheart.
What’s ironic is Ironman and captain America were c tier before marvel got them 💀
I think Captain America and the Hulk were well known outside of comics due to other media such as films and TV appearances. You're right about Iron Man, though. Nobody who didnt read comics had a clue before the MCU.
Imagine if Blue Beetle and even the Venom films were R-rated and could tackle the subject matter of what makes one human and the dire tale of body horror from being taken over by a symbiotic/nigh-parasitic alien organism. There's a reason why I think a film like Upgrade is a better Venom film than Venom itself.
Deadpool isn't exactly a top tier hero but people love his movies. It's not the type of hero that matters, it's more about if Marvel can make a compelling story for that hero. I'm sure a lot of people actually like lower tier heroes because you can make a narrative about them doing something other than saving the world from some massive cataclysmic event and tell a smaller and more nuanced story.
He's B list, that'e a difference
@@ywoisug8845 My point still stands though, he isn't a big name hero and his stories are usually smaller scale.
Deadpool doesn’t have to be a top tier hero bro is an pop culture icon now, he’s more popular than the character he was a parody of,
@@RequiemNocturne1
Not a big name hero? Oh I see what you did. Since he's really an antihero this sentence is technically true. Cuz he's definitely big name at this point.
11:23 smh my man over here ignoring 1998 Blade. $45m budget, $70m domestic, $130m worldwide
Good stuff can be made out of lesser known superheros.
The Avengers used to just be where Marvel dumped characters who weren't popular enough to have their own book. And now their a household name largely thanks to the MCU.
You just need talented writers, directors, and actors.
Marvel made a good film with Iron Man, a B Lister, and it made him into an A Lister. Since DC has failed with their actual A Listers, fans don't have leeway for them to use b or c listers. It's possible, but not likely.
@anibal5845 Peacemaker was like a Z lister and everyone loves his show.
Exactly. Iron man, Capt America, Thor, and Black Panther were all once C-list (maybe B-list if you want to be generous) superheroes too. The difference between then and now is that then they actually put time and energy into building these characters. Now they just expect the fans to latch on because it's marvel.
Son: Mom, I want the Avengers
Mom: But we already have the Avengers at home
The Avengers at home:
You forgot to mention how Blade in 1998 saved Marvel and it was the first Marvel Superhero movie. It gets overlooked, but the movie was a game changer
He pander to white conservatives. This is why he doesn’t mention that
@@GuyWhoConquersMainexactly what I was about to say.
Plastic Man is great. C-list, shure. But in the animated movies, he's a goat.
Plastic man is a list. He's probably new to you.
Black Panther is B-List at best.
1998 Blade actually kicked that shit off😂
It annoys me to no end that people don't mention this movie when talking about Marvel super hero movies. It's an amazing trilogy.
All the characters that started the MCU were B-List heroes, simply because Marvel had to sell Spiderman and X-Men which is the reason these B-Listers became A-Listers, good writing and character development made them more and more famous, like who tf knew Black Widow or Hawkeye before the MCU, its like a couple of Comics nerds, Blue Beetle is like that in the world of DC, I personally liked the character after watching Young Justice
What sucks is it’s not that they’re using C-list characters, it’s the fact they are making stories that people don’t care about. I mean it took 2 movies and a movie series for people to give a care about Punisher and even Nicholas cage couldn’t save ghost rider.
C-List can became A-list if used properly.
True but lately, they dropped the ball on making good stories regardless of the tier.
C- list. Kinda like how Iron Man was
You are missing the reason why some are absolutely terrible. They don’t earn anything,they are just given everything without any struggle at all. They never get injured or are at risk of getting injured because they just know everything and are to smart to get injured.
Honestly you could write a really cool story about a character like that. But it...would involve them coming to terms with the reality that their sweet new powers/job aren't as great as they appear, and there is a heavy weight to bear being a hero. I mean stories like that have been done lots of times.
But it certainly doesn't involve them just being awesome and just as good as better heroes because they were just born special. That should be the attitude that gets knocked out of them after a while. Y'know, a character arc.
Passing the mantle/torch characters can work if they're written in a way where they earn the mantle. A good example I would point yo is Izuku Midoria (Deku) from My Hero Academia. Deku was born quirkless (powerless) in a world where 80% of the world's population possesses a superhuman ability of some kind. And that percentage is growing because quirks are hereditary by nature.
Deku's idol is the #1 hero All Might, and after a chance encounter with his idol, where All Might tells him it's impossible to be a hero without a quirk, a discouraged Deku ends up facing a crisis situation. It was a stalemate situation All Might couldn't jump into because of a moment of weakness, but by pure heroic instinct, Deku joined in before he even had the chance to think. Someone *needed* to be saved, and it wasn't in Deku's character to sit idly by. This moment inspired All Might, who after the crisis, passed on his quirk to Deku as the next symbol of peace.
I mean I like some of those lesser known heroes I don't just want to see the top picks and generalized favorites every single time, but imagine if they actually wrote less known characters well and gave them good stories, that would be crazy wouldn't it.
Tony Stark didn’t have a ‘Need to be Iron-Man’ .. he had an epiphany that showed him his great burden of responsibility. And then he chose to do something about it. And that’s the difference. Duty and Burden of responsibility … that’s what the males have in common.
The women on the other hand have the whole “POWEERRRR!! .. UNLIMITED POWWWWEERRRRR!!” Thing going on. Where all the care about is themselves as they girl-boss their way through everything. The failure of the MCU is in choosing to showcase characters that have rampant narcissism .. but no sense of duty to others, and no burden to reckon with.
And if you do it with enough of the characters, people will stop going to see all of them, even the characters who aren't like that, just out of a general disgust with Marvel. It's sad.
James Gunn is the one guy capable of making you care about C-Tier comicbook characters
The problem isn’t C-Tier comic book characters it’s just shitty writing, Iron Man and the Avengers weren’t exactly considered S-Tier characters before the MCU came along.
@@jaijoerik6233 I agree. The reason James Gun's portrayal of "C-Tier" characters work so well is because he treats them as such, as underdogs, and he does it well.
Disney tries too hard to make them top stars without earning it, especially the "minorities".
Yeah, no one cares about The Guardians of the Galaxy or anything not Hulk, Cap, or Spidey.
All we really care about is putting the same 5 most popular characters, who've been around for nearly a century, through the same scenarios presented in a slightly different fashion.
It's not the heros, it's the presentation, the writing.
I disagree with the premise here. I don't think the main problem with the MCU right now is that they tried to introduce lesser-known characters and make them the next Avengers team. I think the specific execution of that plan is where the MCU completely derailed itself.
People tend to forget how obscure Captain America, Ironman and Thor were to normie audiences 15 years ago. Of the three Cap was probably the best known, but he was practically a joke character to the non-comics public, essentially a patriotic version of the Adam West Batman. Focusing on these B-listers rather than an A or S tier Known Name like Spiderman or Hulk gave the early MCU much more leeway to do their own thing, much less expectations to meet and in turn it allowed them to get people invested in these "new" characters, in a way that would have been hard to pull off with a more familiar character.
I think the MCU could have pulled off the same trick again had they taken a similar approach with phase 4. What absolutely did not work with their new approach was a) introducing way too many characters in too little time. b) not spending nearly enough time to flesh out these new characters and get people invested. c) Using the few remaining fan-favourites as bait to lure in viewers, only to side-line or replace them with [new character], often with the added cringe of having the established hero mocked, degraded and outdone by the newbie. d) Fookin' mantle swaps. Things would have gone down so much better if there were a new roster of differently-powered heroes rather than an assortment of extremely on the nose copy-cat versions like female Iron Man, female Black Panther, female Thor, female Loki, female Hawkeye, etc.
Clearly, the new direction shows a staggering lack of confidence. Where 15 years ago they took the risk of allowing people to get invested in Tony Stark without baiting them in with the promise of a Hulk or Spiderman, nowadays they are so concerned with mitigating risk that they themselves never give these new characters a chance to stand on their own. If they feel this insecure about their characters in inspires zero confidence on my end that they have anything going for them other than the increasingly cheap gimmick of using the MCU and its last remaining popular characters as a hook. And there's massively diminishing returns there with every bad new chapter of the MCU.
Completely agreed.
Ong
Hmm now that is a wall of text sheesh
PSA to those saying Iron Man and many other staple MCU heroes weren’t A-List:
Please watch the entire video. He’s well aware.
Ironman and Guardian of the Galaxy were C-tier characters lol.
was about to comment exactly this, the only reason the MCU started with Ironman was because nobody cared about him, so even if the movie flopped they wouldn't be burning one of their main characters
They were. No argument. Guardians were the back up group for Adam Warlock, and Starlord/Groot/Rocket were not even in the Guardians to begin with. Marvel died when Image was created, period.
That $250 Million budget is just how much we know of right now. Not the whole thing yet.
People would care if they took the time to develop interesting characters but unfortunately they don’t. Iron Man, Captain America and Thor were C list characters when Marvel started making these movies and turned them into A list by focusing on making good movies with relatable characters who actually had an arc.
Yeah, Tony Stark was a nobody before Iron man.
I wish movies weren’t made to fit corporate agendas. It doesn’t matter if the hero is popular or not. If there’s a story you want to tell, and it has meaning to it. Then that should be the focus. Not marketing, not Hollywood’s status quo, not race, not gender, none of that. Because those things will never be as important as the message of the story. That’s what gives stories meaning. Entertainment is important, but it how that entertainment inspires us that gives them meaning. And it seems a lot of people have lost sight of that. It’s really sad.
It wouldn't be such a big deal if corporations remembered rule #1:
Make money.
Because if your agenda was 'make money' you would make the best movie possible for the lowest possible cost.
And there is nothing wrong with that, to be sure.
You wild for forgetting to mention how integral Blade was in the 90s to making superheroes seem serious.
Side note: I see you mentioned blade at the end 😂
Carol Danvers existed in comics for many decades, noone gave a shit about her,ever.
I saw The Creator on Saturday night and they played the new trailer for The Marvels. The guy next to me turned to his date and said “that looks like absolute shit” and she nodded in agreement.
Hilarious! I saw Saw X on Saturday. I also saw the trailer to The Marvels, turned to my girl and asked her if she would go see it. She frowned and said "Nah." She told me that she didn't have to see every female led movie when I pointed it out to her.
Why does everyone forget that between Burtons Batman and Raimi's Spiderman was a trilogy of films about Blade? Those films were both successful and proved that you could make adult comic book movies.
True. But Marvel will claim that Black Panther was the first comicbook movie with a black lead. Just like they lied about Captain Marvel being the first female led superhero movie.
Correction: Black Panther is only the first MCU black led film but Blade is the first overall Marvel black led film!
Get it right modern news. Oh wait, that goes against their agenda@@nerychristian
@@nerychristianalso Steel exists.
@@LiMe251 I prefer aluminum.
@@nerychristian I meant the movie.
Correction: Guardians of the Galaxy was greenlit and began production before The Avengers released, and it only got made because they DIDN'T know if The Avengers would catch on. It was a case of them not wanting to put all of their eggs in one basket. Of course, then The Avengers was The Avengers and every movie and TV show after Guardians that WASN'T Avengers or Guardians got either scrapped or shunted to lower budget TV specials, like The Inhumans and The Runaways, which were also planned to be part of the proper MCU portfolio and just got pushed out in favor of more Avengers like Dr. Strange and Black Panther.
To be fair most of the characters in mcu were c-list characters.
Nah, I would say writing is way more important than the characters themselve. ( Guardians, Iron Man, the Boys, Omniman and a few others are the proof ) ( most people including myself, had no idea who these characters were before the movies