A Dialogue between Dr. Daniel Ingram and David Germano on Elemental Meditations - 9/09/2022
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- Опубликовано: 14 сен 2022
- Buddhism in South Asia and Tibet involved extensive theorization of the material world in terms of five elements-earth, water, fire, wind, and space. These five elements were also the subject of important contemplative practices, though their form and importance fluctuated across time and tradition. Particularly of note is early concentrative practices on colored disks understood to represent the elements and referred to as kasina meditations in the Pali language. Subsequently in Tibet these emerged in quite different forms within its Great Perfection traditions (Dzokchen) as a variety of meditations focused on deep sensory-based contemplative experience of the same five elements, whether in terms of sound, vision, smells, tastes, and textures.
Dr. Ingram has led interesting modern efforts at exploring the possibilities of deep concentration on fire, while Professor Germano has been a leading scholar on such early Tibetan elemental meditations. The dialogue will thus explore such practices and associated experiences in historical and contemporary forms.
Learn more about the speakers: bit.ly/IngramGermano
Love the enthusiasm and energy Daniel always brings to his talks. Much appreciated Daniel.
You too David! That bit about Earth's sound is very useful for me to meditate on. That being said, I would like to non-judgmentally point out that your focus on the elements seems to be only focused on sound. For me the earth element is the easiest to meditate on. Our body is made of the earth. The food we eat. The ground we stand on. I can feel the Earth's (or mother earth if you like!) pull. There's a lot of ways I can feel it.
Sati Sampajanna : The key is to bring this clear comprehension to all of life's activities. Gestalt of contemplation.
What Pali Canon Texts are good to read ?
What are the texts that describe the kasinas
I always liked Barbara Brennan's higher sensory perception.
Daniel, your visualized and embodied releases (after the repeating nightmares)… might you describe these as ‘sankaras’ ?
yeah as a real noob to this stuff but having done a 10 day vipassana retreat in the goenka style, this was explained as the point of vipassana, to eradicate/erase sankaras. exactly how this erasure was to manifest was not explicitly described (Goenka stuff is very vague for better or worse) but for me it was these visuals during bodyscanning which related to traumas and unpleasantness. Actually the visuals were not excessively vivid, what was striking about them was their rapidity and the number of them arising and passing in a short span of time. My equanimity was about 80% and I was pretty exhausted after the first sit like this. I had a second experience preceded by a dream, which I was more prepared for. Interestingly, whilst I half-accepted the interpretation Goenka gives that bodyscanning leads to the erasure of past traumas as they are recoded with equanimity (much like in trauma psychology and self-hypnosis) they were more ambigously erasures and less directed than what Daniel describes. I wondered at the time if I was sticking a spanner in the works. nonetheless, Daniel's experience does seem somewhat similar. just what it would be like for a very experienced meditator to go through this sort of thing. and the physical sense of emotional fatigue afterwards is exactly right on (though I didn't get it as bad as daniel ofc), but a real weepy feeling in the face etc..
A little confused. Is it the case that the classical elements (fire, earth, water, wind, etc.) are simply useful conceptual tools for practice, and their classification as "elements" is ultimately arbitrary? Or is there a claim being made that there's objective merit to their status as elements (like any element you could find in the periodic table)?
I can't speak for Dr Ingram, but for the Tibetan Buddhist traditions I don't think its arbitrary at all. It is an entire complex theory and practice that is based upon these five natural elements as encountered in nature, analyzing there characteristics, locating those characteristics in physical and mental processes, and so forth.
@@favorites3652 From my practice-oriented point of view, rather than ontological point of view, it turns out that experientially the elements make for a really nice set of focuses that connect to various aspects of the body and the natural world, and they also begin to show up as types of experiences that clearly have specific elemental qualities that are often well categorized by the framework, and they also can lead to effects that also clearly seem to be well described through an elemental lens, so, practically, the elements, once you begin to appreciate them for yourself, have a lot going for them as a framework.
Said another way, very "windy", or "watery", or "fiery", or "earthy", or "space-related" focuses produce effects that correspond to those focuses. I think it less useful to debate contructivist vs essentialist ideas, at least for me in this case, and more useful to notice what is being pointed to directly for yourself, in your own experience, for enough time for those components of your experience to show you useful and interesting things.
By way of a clear and straightforward example, if suddenly powerful heat begins to arise in the body, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to think of that as fire element, same with a vision of flowing, bubbling water as water element as another example, and, through this mix of arising experiences and specific focuses, one can begin to live in a world where one can see both the essentialist and semi-constructivist (or more "radio-tuning") perspectives. I hope this is helpful and not held in some tight way, just a practical way.
neither. they are not arbitrary and are not elements in the sense of elements in periodic table. these are meant as fundamental building blocks of anything manifest. there are outer or gross elements, then inner or subtle elements appearing as lights, and secret or innermost that are just root syllables or sounds.
maybe start here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mah%C4%81bh%C5%ABta#Four_primary_elements
Fire is related to Tummo
You should be able to concentrate for 45 minutes straight before attempting most practices which involve moving energy around. Zen is Sutra Yana not Tantra Yana.
Zergna
In a few months AI will be able to determine if someone is lying or telling the truth.
It will be interesting to see if M. Ingram pass the test
you know already!!! listen to your inner self!!!
@@masta12ful
Sorry. I don't
what do you think he's making up?
That he is an arahant.
@@Woody-wz9vb That he is an Arahant
Daniel I don’t know if you wasn’t prepared or weather you needed to be prepared for explaining the elements but I got No foundation or build up to anything you was doing it was just weird as you say and fantastical experiences but no real strategical or conceptual I dead for profession very airy fairy this talk I got nothing from it tbh just being honest nothing to take away but wow wouldn’t this be great well yes