IF??? IMHO, no one can afford NOT to have a good bike fit with James or anyone equally as knowledgeable, just look at how much money he saved that lady?
I had knee pain, I thought it was the setback. I moved my seat all the way back and it got fixed but my reach was too long and I got neck pain... After watching this and the saddle height video, I returned my setback to center and reduced 30mm of seat height. All Fixed!!!!
As a fitter, i also find that riders tend to self-select a saddle height that is too high and that seems to necessitate a "too far forward" saddle. James would be pretty hilarious with a whiteboard. Love you guys, keep up the great vids.
he would end up looking like a conspiracy nut that needs a red string to connect all of his thoughts. Better to leave it to the skeleton and parts to be the demonstration aids.
You've just described me. It's tempting to keep going higher but it's been a real problem for me. As has too low. After that I paid a fortune for a fit which was a total waste of money.. best way is trial and error
You guys are legends for doing these videos. So informative, so helpful, would also be for the millions of people who don't watch these. Bad positions on bikes are so common, spreading the word on proper bike fit is now more important than ever with the increase in popularity of cycling. Keep up the great work fellas!
YOU'VE SOLVED MY PROBLEM! I'm 6 feet tall with a long torso and short legs. I was putting my saddle all the way forward because my large bike has so much reach. But in doing so, I had to raise my saddle and ot gave me so much pressure in my shoulders and lower back. Now I can lower my saddle and reduce the stack for my short arms. Thank you.
I wish there was an emoji I could use on here to demonstrate me slapping my forehead with the expression of....I’ve been doing it wrong 😑. There has been a few vlogs on RUclips of late covering this subject and guys this was without doubt the best explanation to date. No one else has ever mentioned seat posts. Thx.
My God James you could be a college professor and teach the art of bike fit for a full semester! I love listening to your bike fit advice! I sometimes wonder how can you know so much? James please take your bike fittings on the road and come to California. I will gladly pay for one of your awesome bike fittings. Even if you didn’t have to change anything on my bike, just listening to you would be worth the price. Then if we went and had a couple beers (pints) at the local bar (pub)and heardJames spew bike talk while intoxicated I would think I died and went to heaven! Keep up the great videos. Next thing you know I am going to start saying “bloody” and “mate” from listening to you guys so much. Thanks guys!
Thanks for this one Francis and James!. I got into cycling late and had a LOT of hand discomfort until I followed James' advice to lower the saddle. Fore/Aft has been a big question for the last few months
I also just got into cycling. You can also change your stem to shorter and/or more up-raised (+-10* vs. +-0*). Both will have the effect of a slightly more upright position, which will transfer weight from hands to bum. Keep your current stem to try out over time to test your development, and adjust as needed. It's not an expensive swap.
1 James should be a bike fitter for bike fitters, so they understand their mistakes ( on the idea, if you don’t like what you have done, don’t do it to others) 2 He is like a cool Einstein, you can see his brain flooding with information, but he’s mouth cannot cope with the output ( i mean it in a good way, as a compliment ) 3 (Maybe for next bike fit video ) How often should you have your bike fit redone? Work/life style can change your flexibility....I suppose that will affect your position/comfort on the bike. Again, kudos for the content 🤘🏼
I did a bike fit in a local shop when I got into cycling, and the guy used the Kop's Method... I wish I had seen his video before, since I did not run away then! To be honest, I did felt like it improved a lot my pedaling mechanics, in that I felt kind of "behind the pedals" before, and "above the pedals" after moving the saddle forward, per Kop's Method... but lately (since I now have an indoor trainer because of pandemic and stuff) I've been experimenting more, and after watching some of your videos I lowered the saddle and slid it back closer to the center of the rails... and it feels good! I'm doing it slowly, I will try lowering it a bit more and see how that feels. What I mean to say is, thanks for the excellent and scientifically-based advice here!
My opinion is most professional bike fitters are watching and learning from bfj! If not they should be! James knows his craft and try's to educate. Cheers Francis and James.
I’d love to get a fit with this guy but being I live in Texas and I’m now over 70, I don’t see that happening 😂 Great information and I really like his explanations and presentation
Another video that totally changes my understanding. I've got very long femurs and a short torso. Was fitted twice and both had a lot of saddle setback. I'd done the usual balance tests but never took it far enough. Now after watching this I wondered just how forward I could get and still not have a bunch of weight on my hands. The answer was all the way forward with an inline post.
Tha'ts very interesting to read. I have the same problem. I'm a medium size person usually, but my legs goes better with a large size. I'm trying with no setback seatpost and things are going better!
That is a genius tip to measure saddle setback! Cant believe I never thought of that. I need to get that right on my track bike's tt position to be within the uci rules. Same with the extensions. Definitely going to be using that when I'm next playing around with my position. I'd love to have a fit with James, but being in Dublin and covid (and a broke student ha) is putting a pause on that.
Watched your video on shoes. Happened to have a pair of lake cx302s I’d bought but never used because I loved the look of my Victoria retro lace ups. Decided to put some cleats on and give the lakes a go. Revelation. 1.2 km/h increase in average speed in 1 ride. No knee hamstring or ITB pain ~ I have some rugby induced knee injuries from 30 years ago. Still on the zero pedals though. Can’t yet justify the $1000 to go to spd’s. Thanks so much.
Any chance you could do a video on how to open the hips up with stretching and exercises? As someone over 35 and who sits at a desk all day I feel I need it.
Coming from a MTB background for several years prior to getting a road bike, I immediately felt more "natural" with a good amount of saddle set-back. Realized within the first few rides that my initial saddle height was a bit too high; once I took care of that, I've been very comfortable on the bike.
Awesome Information! Can you do a video on how to level a saddle? I know that there are different types of saddles but it would be great to hear where is your starting point
So far, during watching bike fit Tuesdays, I’ve had colleagues hear and ask if I was listening to bike info from 1) Thor and 2) Boris Johnson. I thought James might find at least one of those a compliment 😉
I'm 6'4 on a 60cm cyclocross bike that I use for gravel and road biking... they have slightly different geometry from a strict road bike... I find myself never being able to find a true/perfect position. I'd say my limb lengths, torso lengths are all proportionate (in other words, I'm not 6'4 with long arms/legs short torso, or short legs long torso... I'm proportionate). In order to get full leg extension... I extend my seat post fully at its limit. Maybe 1cm passed it actually. Not only that, but I have to slide my saddle all the way back for a bit more leg extension, and reach (Since if I keep the saddle neutral or forward, I feel cramped up front). I even have a 110mm long stem. The position this puts me in.. gives me a feeling of kicking forward while my femur bones are too close to my torso (which doesn't allow me to put out as much power... although it puts me in a more aero position). Issue is... If I shorten the stem... I'm cramped. If I slide seat foward... I'm cramped. If I slide seat post down... legs don't get extension. I think I've come to the conclusion that my frame just isn't enough for me... Gotta go full road bike, maybe a 61cm. Thoughts from anyone? Looking for all the ideas I can get...
I've been struggling with this a lot. Thanks to James' videos I've lowered my seat a bit, set my tilt to almost neutral, raised my brake levers a bit and got a shorter stem, my bike feels lovely now but I can't get my seat aft/fore right. I'm a 5ft9 170 lbs male using an L sized frame (mistake, I know) and I have short legs. I've found that setting the seat at the middle makes me overuse my hamstrings, and too far forward kills my quads, so I guess I'll get a proper bike fit soon. My seatpost has that backwards position thing going on too, it's not straight or neutral, which I guess I don't need in a long frame to begin with. It's challenging.
Absolutely obsessed w your Bike Fit Tuesday vids since I’m shopping a new pair of shoes (giving the Lakes a shot) and looking for a new bike for my wife. 1 correction to how to measure the seat set back. You need 3 things, you forgot to include the “wall” 😊. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for the info about setback. I’ve got short torso and long legs and arms, and I find I feel best when my saddle is as far forward as possible. I need to try a zero setback seatpost!
Bernard Hinault famously described the feeling of his hands on the bars as like “playing the piano”, that is, just floating on the tops when pedalling moderately hard. I use that to determine the perfect weight distribution, hence the perfect fore and aft. I totally disregard KOPS, but I’m not far off from it.
I have adjusted setback and trialed varying setbacks, with each setback tested on climbs, flat sprints etc. For each noting what feels good.. On average my body type seems to like 80-90mm. During these trials I left the reach and bar to seat drop constant. While it's not scientific, this has worked for me on several bikes.
I had mine too far back and definitely felt a lack of power which was especially noticeable when pedaling away from a stop. Scooting forward a bit gave me the powerful stroke feeling back, and I think will be easier on my knees too.
I'm an Engineer and a maker and I was thinking of building a small setup with a side-facing (to me on my bike on the turbo obviously) camera which allows me to draw angles over footage of myself cycling such that I can at least get an ok basic fit in when I buy a new bike. Seeing as many (non-flexibility related) issues result from improper saddle height and (to a lesser extent) reach, this may at least be a good starting point I reckon. Then, if I experience other problems (which will inevitably arise because I'm not considering left-right imbalance and no human being is perfectly symmetrical) I can go to a proper bike fitter and spend much more time on dialling in a much better fit because I'm likely to already be within most basic fit windows.
I really never thought my big head might be a cause of numb hands hahahahaha I'll give it a try and set my saddle a little to the back and give it a try
This may be a dumb question but why is my Ergon SR Pro (road) so much more comfortable than my SM Pro ( mountain) in the same size? I spend so much more time seated on the road bike and far less on the mountain bike but I’ve come to really hate my MTB saddle and love the same version on my road bike. Is it…ok? to ride a road saddle on my mtb or is that a big no no??
I found that putting the saddle further forward improved power per heartrate. I ride a giant contend ar size L which definitely is on the smallish side- I’m 193cm tall with short legs and long neck and torso. I feel that giant seat angles just are very slack.
When I got my bike I felt like I was being pushed too much in the back of the saddle, so I set my saddle almost all the way back. When I got some trouble in the back of my knee, I put my saddle a little bit more forward, as it wasn't excessively high. It helped my knee. It's still more to the back though, maybe because I'm on the heavier side, so don't want my weight too much on the front.
Issue I find myself getting is, I've recently slid my saddle forward and I'm comfortable while riding seated and it just feels right! However, while riding, especially on the Turbo, over-engages my quads and they seem to do all the work in the pedal stroke and my glutes/hamstrings are just there for the ride (literally) after the ride my quads will be toast and will be on fire. I'd maybe touch the saddle back bit by bit but doing this means I have to move myself back on the saddle and feels unnatural.
You should have the saddle as far forward as you can tolerate before too much pressure on your hands, and you should keep your cleats all the way back.
Hi James Wish to consult with you- Im not sure i understand or agree with the balance method for aft/fore position. I believe the balance method is relative to the bars position/height. therefore i suggest to use this method maybe to the reach adjustments. For the saddle fore aft issue, i believe its all relates to the p o w e r of the stroke like you mention to be on "top of the stroke": If your sitting too forward i feel that your upper front muscle - quads will be the only one to work or mostly.. If your sitting too backward, The feeling will be that your pushing the pedals forward instead of down direction while feeling weak from that. There is a point in the middle, when you can feel your entire leg is working, and in the right direction. This point is what were looking for and im not sure there is a real method to measure it (kops not convince me) but only by asking the rider himself when he feels most powerful and using his full front,back,up,down legs muscle. Still investigating. What is your opinion? Thanks
I don't believe it can be said better. And guys who care about their fit on their bicycles, if you want to achieve 'your' best fit and performance on a bicycle, there is no formula or short cut. In fact, even visiting someone as knowledgeable as James will not get you to the top because each of us only know our own bodies. Dogged trial and error. Almost all don't follow this advice but the only way to know what works best. James didn't touch on the following but also worth mentioning. Saddle to bar drop affects amount of setback you can or can't run which affects hip impingement and of course relates to crankarm length as well. A multi-variant puzzle. To me, it takes years to find a best fit on a bicycle. For those...even tallish riders like me, try shorter cranks if you want a higher RPM, smooth pedal stroke for good sustained power. Owning different bicycles and setting them up differently helps accelerate the process of determining what works best. I am now an old, fit cyclist after decades of experimentation. I am a tallish, longer of leg and run a bit less setback, shorter cranks and not much saddle to handlebar drop to promote an unfettered pedal stroke. Because I am still fit and not overweight, I am not plussed by how much weight I carry on my hands. Lack of hip impingement is more important. I use the drops a lot and can still get my back down but not as much as a younger, more flexible rider who can tolerate more setback resulting in less weight on the hands. Finding Goldilocks is the goal. No substitute for trial and error. A sidebar many don't consider is, the stronger the cyclist you are, the more force you apply to the pedals with each pedal stroke which naturally reduces weight on the hands which allows a bit less setback. There is synergy between strength of a rider and the position they can sustain on the bike. This is why a good cyclist is typically more sore when riding with the wife at 12mph on your roadbike because there is more weight on your hands due to reduced pedal force. People talk about watts all the time but watts can be correlated to pedal force. Watts aka Power = Torque X RPM....Torque = Pedal Force X Crankarm Length. Therefore at a given cadence, the more force you apply to the pedals, the greater power you generate which naturally unweights both hand pressure and saddle pressure...why hard to stay seated at full sprint pulling UP on the handlebar.
I moved my saddle back a bit to give me more room to slide off and put a foot down at traffic stops. My body just feels comfortable when I can put a foot down next to or just slightly ahead of the bb, and the saddle kept getting in the way of it!
Just curious if BikeFitJames would be interested in doing a State of the Watch Collection video. It seems like he is a watch hound and has some good looking timepieces. I love these bike fit videos. They have helped me dial in my position on my bike over the past month. I am doing a pro bike fit next month. Unfortunately, I already have a bunch of bikes so it is too late for the recommended "fit first, buy later" approach. I will be buying a long distance touring bike soon so all the data I get from the fit session will help me order and buy the right damn bike! --Michael
@@MrTomCrx Absolutely, I had a vodka for every 'furthermore' - 7 shots. Totally blotto now. Could have chosen 'individual' though, and I'd be in A and E by now. Having said that, it was very interesting and useful (if only to tell me to leave it where it is). I did find this useful for giving potential reasons for shifting, whilst highlighting a couple of good reasons not to.
My rule of thumb is if I feel I am having to shuffle myself forward on the saddle as I feel my bum is hanging too much off the back then I need to put the saddle back a bit. If I feel that I am constantly having to shuffle backwards as I am feeling too much on the nose, I need to put the saddle forward a bit. It's all a bit trial and error in my experience. My current bike has a 20mm setback post on it (replaced the original in line post as I had the saddle on the max aft and still felt like I was hanging off the back of the saddle). I have quite long legs and a short torso.
Interesting stuff! As a tall guy with really long legs/short torso (but still quite a lot of upper body weight), I feel a little better now about having mine at the furthest forward point of the limit of the saddle rails. Didn’t know about the different seatposts, but now I’ve looked mine comes with probably a 20mm setback, so might try to find an inline post! Please keep doing these!
Been messing with the saddle setback and reach . . . but the real test is in the ride. When powering the bike at different levels, your back and arms will stretch and your butt will find its natural position, and you can tell if you are falling off the back of the seat (too far forward) and can adjust accordingly for making the seat a comfortable pivot point. When you coast, your butt will come forward and more weight on the hands . . . that is another 'feel' of the seat and more weight into your genitals, so that also indicates the ideal setback position to get the horn from digging into your crotch.
Very informative video...as are all your videos. After riding in basically the same position for over 30 years I started to develop neck and shoulder pain this year as well it feeling as though my pedaling efficiency suffering a bit. The position I had adopted back in the late 80's/early 90's was based on the Greg LeMond philosophy of bike setup...stretched out, saddle pushed way back, wide bars, etc. That position worked very well for me for a very long time. Being 30+ years older now, I realized that it's pretty ridiculous to think that I can still ride efficiently in that same position. So I'm thinking of moving my saddle forward and most likely up a bit. You mention a 1 to 3 ratio of this relationship. Which way does it work? My thought is that for every 3mm you move forward, you move the saddle up 1mm. Is that correct? Any comment on my overall thinking here? Thanks!
Thank you Francis, James! Very useful information. May I ask/request episode regarding bike sizing tips? What I mean- I’m 182cm with 86cm inseam(as far as I can understand- short legs, long back AKA sausage as James sad) but running 56 size frame and feel a bit stretched, in one previous video James sad that he runs 53 size frame, can he explain a bit more about it? Thank
Got a question about moving cleats and saddle setback: if you put the cleats towards the mid-foot, should you move the saddle to compensate? Understood that it will need to go down a bit as well.
I had a Thomson sit tube that has a angle tilted backward (I don’t know the purpose of this, except of getting you really backward). And I had hip + knee pain on my 50+ miles rides. I went back for a standard sit post avec went the furthest I could on my saddle, and all the pain are gone + I feel that my pedal strokes are way stronger
A bit late to the party, but enduro (MTB) typically has the saddle more forward, as most pedaling is done uphill. This is reflected in modern enduro bicycles having pretty steep seat tube angles.
I found if the seat was too far back ( i e when it slipped) I would get soreness around the perimeter of my kneecaps. I just put that out there for someone who has experienced that type of pain and is looking for an option to try for relief. I have been chasing the perfect fit for thirty years of racing as riding and found the perfect fit is a bit dynamic.
My physiology is just off the rails... I have hip impingement, but it improves with greater levels of anterior pelvic tilt. That does make my legs not quite track straight, but any variation of varus wedging, q factor etc. doesn't help that even with a baseline neutral pelvis. I'm quite comfortable on the bike, but it is kind of annoying to have the chest-high knees when getting aero. It's quite nice in a way, though, because the large degree of anterior pelvic tilt fixes any reach issues of my short torso long legs situation.
Hey Francis! Would be cool to know how someone becomes a bikefitter, and even more: how to become a good one. There are more and more people fitting bikes & it's difficult to have a way to find a good one without spending 200+ euro's on a failed fit.
I'm also that short leg guy, but if you then also have more setback, are your knees then properly aligned with the pedals? My uninformed intuition was that shorter legs require less setback because of knee position? Why is that incorrect?
I did the setting saddle at home , here's what I got , wall to saddle nose is 675 and wall to center of bottom bracket is 735 , subtract the two so I get 65mm. NOW HOW TO MEASURE THAT ? 😅 please help me
Hey Francis/James can you say anything for those of us with long feet? I'm EU 47 and I'm wondering if that makes it harder to dorsiflex the foot all setbacks being equal. Would moving the saddle back a bit be a viable solution?
So ultimately, what is trying to be achieved with this adjustment when done by a bike fitter? Comfort? Efficiency? If efficiency, how would the most efficient setback be determined?
Thanks for all of these bike fit videos and the information in them. Now I'm going to drink a Long Island Iced Tea and I'll have one for you gents too. 🍻🥂🍻🥂🤪
Short torso/longish legs here. Guess I’m shopping for a zero setback seatpost. Already running 70mm headset with +35 degree rise to help with reach issues.
Over the years(many) I’ve tried all sorts of setups but always come back to 15mm setback post, in the middle of the rails, totally flat and totally straight 😀 so dull....
James: dont move the saddle forward to shorten the reach
Me: FUCK
I love coming to this channel every day to hear James tell me that every single fit I've ever had is 100% wrong.
One day if I ever get a fit with James I can't wait for him to tell me how all my previous fits were wrong 😂
IF??? IMHO, no one can afford NOT to have a good bike fit with James or anyone equally as knowledgeable, just look at how much money he saved that lady?
I can listen to this guy lecture about bike fit all day.
Me also, (If he cut out all the ERR...)
As a total amateur, this series has really opened my eyes to all the stuff I've done wrong so far!
...as have we all
I had knee pain, I thought it was the setback. I moved my seat all the way back and it got fixed but my reach was too long and I got neck pain...
After watching this and the saddle height video, I returned my setback to center and reduced 30mm of seat height. All Fixed!!!!
I was slow to comment because my saddle was too far away from the keyboard.Also, great video, thanks!
As a fitter, i also find that riders tend to self-select a saddle height that is too high and that seems to necessitate a "too far forward" saddle.
James would be pretty hilarious with a whiteboard. Love you guys, keep up the great vids.
he would end up looking like a conspiracy nut that needs a red string to connect all of his thoughts. Better to leave it to the skeleton and parts to be the demonstration aids.
Guilty of this
The white board could be scary! But great!
You've just described me. It's tempting to keep going higher but it's been a real problem for me. As has too low. After that I paid a fortune for a fit which was a total waste of money.. best way is trial and error
and then they never ride on the drops because they don't have the flexibility for the saddle drop
You guys are legends for doing these videos. So informative, so helpful, would also be for the millions of people who don't watch these. Bad positions on bikes are so common, spreading the word on proper bike fit is now more important than ever with the increase in popularity of cycling. Keep up the great work fellas!
Thanks guys, been wanting this episode for ages. 👍 It's become clear over the last couple years that my next frame will be 1 size smaller.
James, looked for this video on purpose today, I am a Michigan based fitter and this helped me so much with a client. Thanks
“What if your saddle is too far forward?”
You’d get a call from UCI.
its never too far forward. just dont slam your stem and your all good. ask obree
YOU'VE SOLVED MY PROBLEM! I'm 6 feet tall with a long torso and short legs. I was putting my saddle all the way forward because my large bike has so much reach. But in doing so, I had to raise my saddle and ot gave me so much pressure in my shoulders and lower back. Now I can lower my saddle and reduce the stack for my short arms. Thank you.
I wish there was an emoji I could use on here to demonstrate me slapping my forehead with the expression of....I’ve been doing it wrong 😑. There has been a few vlogs on RUclips of late covering this subject and guys this was without doubt the best explanation to date. No one else has ever mentioned seat posts. Thx.
🤦🏽♂️
@@Bikefitjames 🤦🤦🤦🤦😂😂😂
My God James you could be a college professor and teach the art of bike fit for a full semester!
I love listening to your bike fit advice!
I sometimes wonder how can you know so much?
James please take your bike fittings on the road and come to California.
I will gladly pay for one of your awesome bike fittings.
Even if you didn’t have to change anything on my bike, just listening to you would be worth the price.
Then if we went and had a couple beers (pints) at the local bar (pub)and heardJames spew bike talk while intoxicated I would think I died and went to heaven!
Keep up the great videos. Next thing you know I am going to start saying “bloody” and “mate” from listening to you guys so much. Thanks guys!
Thanks for this one Francis and James!. I got into cycling late and had a LOT of hand discomfort until I followed James' advice to lower the saddle. Fore/Aft has been a big question for the last few months
I also just got into cycling. You can also change your stem to shorter and/or more up-raised (+-10* vs. +-0*). Both will have the effect of a slightly more upright position, which will transfer weight from hands to bum. Keep your current stem to try out over time to test your development, and adjust as needed. It's not an expensive swap.
@@daviddauza I've had my road bike for about two years at this point. I own two handlebars and 4 stems. Nothing felt right until I lowered the saddle.
1 James should be a bike fitter for bike fitters, so they understand their mistakes ( on the idea, if you don’t like what you have done, don’t do it to others)
2 He is like a cool Einstein, you can see his brain flooding with information, but he’s mouth cannot cope with the output ( i mean it in a good way, as a compliment )
3 (Maybe for next bike fit video ) How often should you have your bike fit redone? Work/life style can change your flexibility....I suppose that will affect your position/comfort on the bike.
Again, kudos for the content 🤘🏼
2. I thought he'd had a few beers...
@@plantpoweredhealth9383 Einstein ?
I did a bike fit in a local shop when I got into cycling, and the guy used the Kop's Method... I wish I had seen his video before, since I did not run away then!
To be honest, I did felt like it improved a lot my pedaling mechanics, in that I felt kind of "behind the pedals" before, and "above the pedals" after moving the saddle forward, per Kop's Method... but lately (since I now have an indoor trainer because of pandemic and stuff) I've been experimenting more, and after watching some of your videos I lowered the saddle and slid it back closer to the center of the rails... and it feels good! I'm doing it slowly, I will try lowering it a bit more and see how that feels.
What I mean to say is, thanks for the excellent and scientifically-based advice here!
My opinion is most professional bike fitters are watching and learning from bfj! If not they should be! James knows his craft and try's to educate. Cheers Francis and James.
I’d love to get a fit with this guy but being I live in Texas and I’m now over 70, I don’t see that happening 😂
Great information and I really like his explanations and presentation
Another video that totally changes my understanding. I've got very long femurs and a short torso. Was fitted twice and both had a lot of saddle setback. I'd done the usual balance tests but never took it far enough. Now after watching this I wondered just how forward I could get and still not have a bunch of weight on my hands. The answer was all the way forward with an inline post.
Tha'ts very interesting to read. I have the same problem. I'm a medium size person usually, but my legs goes better with a large size. I'm trying with no setback seatpost and things are going better!
Nice Skx on James there, we need to see more of his collection! Also, great explanation on the saddle setback.
Love these recent videos, there are similar online but some conflict with one another, James makes it so clear to the point
That is a genius tip to measure saddle setback! Cant believe I never thought of that. I need to get that right on my track bike's tt position to be within the uci rules. Same with the extensions. Definitely going to be using that when I'm next playing around with my position. I'd love to have a fit with James, but being in Dublin and covid (and a broke student ha) is putting a pause on that.
I got a a MASSIVE head....so I guess I need to sit on a pannier rack!!! 😭
Watched your video on shoes. Happened to have a pair of lake cx302s I’d bought but never used because I loved the look of my Victoria retro lace ups. Decided to put some cleats on and give the lakes a go. Revelation. 1.2 km/h increase in average speed in 1 ride. No knee hamstring or ITB pain ~ I have some rugby induced knee injuries from 30 years ago. Still on the zero pedals though. Can’t yet justify the $1000 to go to spd’s. Thanks so much.
Any chance you could do a video on how to open the hips up with stretching and exercises? As someone over 35 and who sits at a desk all day I feel I need it.
Coming from a MTB background for several years prior to getting a road bike, I immediately felt more "natural" with a good amount of saddle set-back. Realized within the first few rides that my initial saddle height was a bit too high; once I took care of that, I've been very comfortable on the bike.
James looks like he belongs on a 1930s freighter
Maybe he was planning to go burgle some hamburgers after the filming.. 🤔
Awesome Information! Can you do a video on how to level a saddle? I know that there are different types of saddles but it would be great to hear where is your starting point
So far, during watching bike fit Tuesdays, I’ve had colleagues hear and ask if I was listening to bike info from 1) Thor and 2) Boris Johnson. I thought James might find at least one of those a compliment 😉
😂
I'm 6'4 on a 60cm cyclocross bike that I use for gravel and road biking... they have slightly different geometry from a strict road bike...
I find myself never being able to find a true/perfect position.
I'd say my limb lengths, torso lengths are all proportionate (in other words, I'm not 6'4 with long arms/legs short torso, or short legs long torso... I'm proportionate).
In order to get full leg extension... I extend my seat post fully at its limit. Maybe 1cm passed it actually.
Not only that, but I have to slide my saddle all the way back for a bit more leg extension, and reach (Since if I keep the saddle neutral or forward, I feel cramped up front).
I even have a 110mm long stem.
The position this puts me in.. gives me a feeling of kicking forward while my femur bones are too close to my torso (which doesn't allow me to put out as much power... although it puts me in a more aero position).
Issue is...
If I shorten the stem... I'm cramped.
If I slide seat foward... I'm cramped.
If I slide seat post down... legs don't get extension.
I think I've come to the conclusion that my frame just isn't enough for me... Gotta go full road bike, maybe a 61cm.
Thoughts from anyone? Looking for all the ideas I can get...
I've been struggling with this a lot. Thanks to James' videos I've lowered my seat a bit, set my tilt to almost neutral, raised my brake levers a bit and got a shorter stem, my bike feels lovely now but I can't get my seat aft/fore right. I'm a 5ft9 170 lbs male using an L sized frame (mistake, I know) and I have short legs. I've found that setting the seat at the middle makes me overuse my hamstrings, and too far forward kills my quads, so I guess I'll get a proper bike fit soon. My seatpost has that backwards position thing going on too, it's not straight or neutral, which I guess I don't need in a long frame to begin with. It's challenging.
Absolutely obsessed w your Bike Fit Tuesday vids since I’m shopping a new pair of shoes (giving the Lakes a shot) and looking for a new bike for my wife. 1 correction to how to measure the seat set back. You need 3 things, you forgot to include the “wall” 😊. Keep up the good work.
What about the issue with muscle strain (thighs vs hams)? Too far back, sore hams. Too far forward, sore thighs.
Thank you for the info about setback. I’ve got short torso and long legs and arms, and I find I feel best when my saddle is as far forward as possible. I need to try a zero setback seatpost!
I am in the same camp. I was thinking about fixing my reach issue with a shorter stem. Glad to know a new seat post is also an option.
Francis is a savage for the sausage dog clip!
Bernard Hinault famously described the feeling of his hands on the bars as like “playing the piano”, that is, just floating on the tops when pedalling moderately hard. I use that to determine the perfect weight distribution, hence the perfect fore and aft. I totally disregard KOPS, but I’m not far off from it.
I have adjusted setback and trialed varying setbacks, with each setback tested on climbs, flat sprints etc. For each noting what feels good.. On average my body type seems to like 80-90mm. During these trials I left the reach and bar to seat drop constant. While it's not scientific, this has worked for me on several bikes.
I love these videos!! I am always learning something new!!
I had mine too far back and definitely felt a lack of power which was especially noticeable when pedaling away from a stop. Scooting forward a bit gave me the powerful stroke feeling back, and I think will be easier on my knees too.
I'm an Engineer and a maker and I was thinking of building a small setup with a side-facing (to me on my bike on the turbo obviously) camera which allows me to draw angles over footage of myself cycling such that I can at least get an ok basic fit in when I buy a new bike. Seeing as many (non-flexibility related) issues result from improper saddle height and (to a lesser extent) reach, this may at least be a good starting point I reckon. Then, if I experience other problems (which will inevitably arise because I'm not considering left-right imbalance and no human being is perfectly symmetrical) I can go to a proper bike fitter and spend much more time on dialling in a much better fit because I'm likely to already be within most basic fit windows.
great way of measure saddle seatback
Why is this a Francis Channel and not a James Channel?
Pulled my SPD cleat to back of shoe amazing difference 🙏
I really never thought my big head might be a cause of numb hands hahahahaha I'll give it a try and set my saddle a little to the back and give it a try
This may be a dumb question but why is my Ergon SR Pro (road) so much more comfortable than my SM Pro ( mountain) in the same size? I spend so much more time seated on the road bike and far less on the mountain bike but I’ve come to really hate my MTB saddle and love the same version on my road bike. Is it…ok? to ride a road saddle on my mtb or is that a big no no??
I found that putting the saddle further forward improved power per heartrate. I ride a giant contend ar size L which definitely is on the smallish side- I’m 193cm tall with short legs and long neck and torso. I feel that giant seat angles just are very slack.
Thank you for your channel, BFT & other content simply the best IMO 👌, def my desert island content
When I got my bike I felt like I was being pushed too much in the back of the saddle, so I set my saddle almost all the way back. When I got some trouble in the back of my knee, I put my saddle a little bit more forward, as it wasn't excessively high. It helped my knee. It's still more to the back though, maybe because I'm on the heavier side, so don't want my weight too much on the front.
is it bike fit everyday on the channel now! loving it
Everyday is Tuesday in Francis' and James' world.
Issue I find myself getting is, I've recently slid my saddle forward and I'm comfortable while riding seated and it just feels right! However, while riding, especially on the Turbo, over-engages my quads and they seem to do all the work in the pedal stroke and my glutes/hamstrings are just there for the ride (literally) after the ride my quads will be toast and will be on fire. I'd maybe touch the saddle back bit by bit but doing this means I have to move myself back on the saddle and feels unnatural.
Did the same and ended up getting knee pain. Saddle is all the way back and I improved the reach by changing the stem.
How about the Steve Hogg balance test on Setting the Saddle set back ??
You should have the saddle as far forward as you can tolerate before too much pressure on your hands, and you should keep your cleats all the way back.
Hi James
Wish to consult with you-
Im not sure i understand or agree with the balance method for aft/fore position.
I believe the balance method is relative to the bars position/height. therefore i suggest to use this method maybe to the reach adjustments.
For the saddle fore aft issue, i believe its all relates to the p o w e r of the stroke like you mention to be on "top of the stroke":
If your sitting too forward i feel that your upper front muscle - quads will be the only one to work or mostly..
If your sitting too backward,
The feeling will be that your pushing the pedals forward instead of down direction while feeling weak from that.
There is a point in the middle, when you can feel your entire leg is working, and in the right direction.
This point is what were looking for and im not sure there is a real method to measure it (kops not convince me) but only by asking the rider himself when he feels most powerful and using his full front,back,up,down legs muscle.
Still investigating.
What is your opinion?
Thanks
I don't believe it can be said better.
And guys who care about their fit on their bicycles, if you want to achieve 'your' best fit and performance on a bicycle, there is no formula or short cut. In fact, even visiting someone as knowledgeable as James will not get you to the top because each of us only know our own bodies. Dogged trial and error. Almost all don't follow this advice but the only way to know what works best.
James didn't touch on the following but also worth mentioning. Saddle to bar drop affects amount of setback you can or can't run which affects hip impingement and of course relates to crankarm length as well. A multi-variant puzzle. To me, it takes years to find a best fit on a bicycle. For those...even tallish riders like me, try shorter cranks if you want a higher RPM, smooth pedal stroke for good sustained power. Owning different bicycles and setting them up differently helps accelerate the process of determining what works best.
I am now an old, fit cyclist after decades of experimentation. I am a tallish, longer of leg and run a bit less setback, shorter cranks and not much saddle to handlebar drop to promote an unfettered pedal stroke. Because I am still fit and not overweight, I am not plussed by how much weight I carry on my hands. Lack of hip impingement is more important. I use the drops a lot and can still get my back down but not as much as a younger, more flexible rider who can tolerate more setback resulting in less weight on the hands. Finding Goldilocks is the goal. No substitute for trial and error.
A sidebar many don't consider is, the stronger the cyclist you are, the more force you apply to the pedals with each pedal stroke which naturally reduces weight on the hands which allows a bit less setback. There is synergy between strength of a rider and the position they can sustain on the bike. This is why a good cyclist is typically more sore when riding with the wife at 12mph on your roadbike because there is more weight on your hands due to reduced pedal force. People talk about watts all the time but watts can be correlated to pedal force. Watts aka Power = Torque X RPM....Torque = Pedal Force X Crankarm Length. Therefore at a given cadence, the more force you apply to the pedals, the greater power you generate which naturally unweights both hand pressure and saddle pressure...why hard to stay seated at full sprint pulling UP on the handlebar.
very helpful video for my short torso. thanks
Love these explanation videos. So informative.
_Furthermore_ , this was extremely informative - thank y'all! 😇
I moved my saddle back a bit to give me more room to slide off and put a foot down at traffic stops. My body just feels comfortable when I can put a foot down next to or just slightly ahead of the bb, and the saddle kept getting in the way of it!
I have anterior pelvic tilt and its a real bastard to find a good comfy set up
Just curious if BikeFitJames would be interested in doing a State of the Watch Collection video. It seems like he is a watch hound and has some good looking timepieces.
I love these bike fit videos. They have helped me dial in my position on my bike over the past month. I am doing a pro bike fit next month. Unfortunately, I already have a bunch of bikes so it is too late for the recommended "fit first, buy later" approach.
I will be buying a long distance touring bike soon so all the data I get from the fit session will help me order and buy the right damn bike!
--Michael
@Andrew Dwyer Bond NATO strap too to boot
hell yes!
Someone else noticed! One of his other vids had a speedmaster.
was "furthermore" on james' word of the day calendar the day you shot this?
😂 Came here to say this
@@MrTomCrx Absolutely, I had a vodka for every 'furthermore' - 7 shots. Totally blotto now. Could have chosen 'individual' though, and I'd be in A and E by now. Having said that, it was very interesting and useful (if only to tell me to leave it where it is). I did find this useful for giving potential reasons for shifting, whilst highlighting a couple of good reasons not to.
As somebody with a massive head who gravitates towards pushing the seat back, I feel validated.
My rule of thumb is if I feel I am having to shuffle myself forward on the saddle as I feel my bum is hanging too much off the back then I need to put the saddle back a bit. If I feel that I am constantly having to shuffle backwards as I am feeling too much on the nose, I need to put the saddle forward a bit. It's all a bit trial and error in my experience. My current bike has a 20mm setback post on it (replaced the original in line post as I had the saddle on the max aft and still felt like I was hanging off the back of the saddle). I have quite long legs and a short torso.
Interesting stuff! As a tall guy with really long legs/short torso (but still quite a lot of upper body weight), I feel a little better now about having mine at the furthest forward point of the limit of the saddle rails.
Didn’t know about the different seatposts, but now I’ve looked mine comes with probably a 20mm setback, so might try to find an inline post!
Please keep doing these!
If one could choose either to be to much back or to much forward what is safer and better is one cant get it totally right?
Measuring setback from the wall with a tape measure is genius! Way easier than fiddling with plumb bobs... ;-)
Been messing with the saddle setback and reach . . . but the real test is in the ride. When powering the bike at different levels, your back and arms will stretch and your butt will find its natural position, and you can tell if you are falling off the back of the seat (too far forward) and can adjust accordingly for making the seat a comfortable pivot point. When you coast, your butt will come forward and more weight on the hands . . . that is another 'feel' of the seat and more weight into your genitals, so that also indicates the ideal setback position to get the horn from digging into your crotch.
Having a drinking game, drink for every "furthermore" during Bike Fit Tuesdays. Everyone blacked out
Very interesting. Very very interesting. Lot to process there.
Extra points for slicing in the sausage dog, Fight Club style.
Very informative video...as are all your videos.
After riding in basically the same position for over 30 years I started to develop neck and shoulder pain this year as well it feeling as though my pedaling efficiency suffering a bit. The position I had adopted back in the late 80's/early 90's was based on the Greg LeMond philosophy of bike setup...stretched out, saddle pushed way back, wide bars, etc. That position worked very well for me for a very long time. Being 30+ years older now, I realized that it's pretty ridiculous to think that I can still ride efficiently in that same position. So I'm thinking of moving my saddle forward and most likely up a bit. You mention a 1 to 3 ratio of this relationship. Which way does it work? My thought is that for every 3mm you move forward, you move the saddle up 1mm. Is that correct? Any comment on my overall thinking here? Thanks!
Thank you Francis, James! Very useful information. May I ask/request episode regarding bike sizing tips? What I mean- I’m 182cm with 86cm inseam(as far as I can understand- short legs, long back AKA sausage as James sad) but running 56 size frame and feel a bit stretched, in one previous video James sad that he runs 53 size frame, can he explain a bit more about it? Thank
Got a question about moving cleats and saddle setback: if you put the cleats towards the mid-foot, should you move the saddle to compensate? Understood that it will need to go down a bit as well.
I had a Thomson sit tube that has a angle tilted backward (I don’t know the purpose of this, except of getting you really backward). And I had hip + knee pain on my 50+ miles rides. I went back for a standard sit post avec went the furthest I could on my saddle, and all the pain are gone + I feel that my pedal strokes are way stronger
Bike fit question for James:. Are there differences in position/fit for different disciplines? i.e. road to cross to track to MTB, etc.
A bit late to the party, but enduro (MTB) typically has the saddle more forward, as most pedaling is done uphill. This is reflected in modern enduro bicycles having pretty steep seat tube angles.
The man knows his stuff!
My head was spiralling with questions on this and James was ticking them of as if he were a little chainlink in my mind
Tnx for the tip Francis and James...
✌️
I'll make sure to have my laptop in the garage with the bike when I do this. I do what James says. Period.
I found if the seat was too far back ( i e when it slipped) I would get soreness around the perimeter of my kneecaps. I just put that out there for someone who has experienced that type of pain and is looking for an option to try for relief. I have been chasing the perfect fit for thirty years of racing as riding and found the perfect fit is a bit dynamic.
Hello Francis, TUESDAY WEEK!!
My physiology is just off the rails... I have hip impingement, but it improves with greater levels of anterior pelvic tilt. That does make my legs not quite track straight, but any variation of varus wedging, q factor etc. doesn't help that even with a baseline neutral pelvis. I'm quite comfortable on the bike, but it is kind of annoying to have the chest-high knees when getting aero. It's quite nice in a way, though, because the large degree of anterior pelvic tilt fixes any reach issues of my short torso long legs situation.
I always like this segment, Bones and Beard.
How do you find a decent bike fitter? Lots of times you see bike fitters saying they've had to correct other bike fitters mistakes 🙈
Hey Francis! Would be cool to know how someone becomes a bikefitter, and even more: how to become a good one. There are more and more people fitting bikes & it's difficult to have a way to find a good one without spending 200+ euro's on a failed fit.
I'm also that short leg guy, but if you then also have more setback, are your knees then properly aligned with the pedals?
My uninformed intuition was that shorter legs require less setback because of knee position? Why is that incorrect?
Bahahah. You missed out on.the Tyler Durden little circle top right of the screen! Brilliant. 😂🤣
I did the setting saddle at home , here's what I got , wall to saddle nose is 675 and wall to center of bottom bracket is 735 , subtract the two so I get 65mm. NOW HOW TO MEASURE THAT ? 😅
please help me
Hey Francis/James can you say anything for those of us with long feet? I'm EU 47 and I'm wondering if that makes it harder to dorsiflex the foot all setbacks being equal. Would moving the saddle back a bit be a viable solution?
Super tip at the end of the video. thx!
Good summary! Cheers guys.
Slide it back allll de wayy. Like a ganster.
what's a ganster?
@@Cade_Media they make sausage rolls don’t they?
Might as well replace the saddle with a deck chair
@@Cade_Media gansters paradise... coolio... right? ;-)
@@Cade_Media haha, I think he meant 'gansta'
I always half expect James to break into Tommy Cooper when he's explaining things. Just like that. 😆 That said I could listen to his knowledge all day
A plumb line from knee to toe is perfect on my lectric bike
So ultimately, what is trying to be achieved with this adjustment when done by a bike fitter? Comfort? Efficiency? If efficiency, how would the most efficient setback be determined?
Thanks for all of these bike fit videos and the information in them. Now I'm going to drink a Long Island Iced Tea and I'll have one for you gents too. 🍻🥂🍻🥂🤪
Short torso/longish legs here. Guess I’m shopping for a zero setback seatpost. Already running 70mm headset with +35 degree rise to help with reach issues.
Over the years(many) I’ve tried all sorts of setups but always come back to 15mm setback post, in the middle of the rails, totally flat and totally straight 😀 so dull....
Always telling my wife to open up her hips! Haha she never listens :)