A Himyarite epigraph dated to July 523 AD. It is a prayer for the Jewish Yemenite king. It ends with the following: “May God, to whom the Sky and the Earth belong, bless the king Yūsuf Asʾar Yathʾar, king of all the communes. With the protection of the Sky and the Earth and the capacities of men, may this inscription [be protected] against any author of damage or degradation, and Raḥmānān Most-High, against any author of degradation [… …] The narration of Tamīm dhu-Ḥaḍyat was composed, written, and carried out in the name of Raḥmānān, Lord of the Jews, with the Praised One (Mḥmd).” The 'bi Muhammad' at the end is rather intriguing. The closest Jewish explanation to this phrase is that the author is invoking the prophet Daniel, who is called Ish Hamidot (one of praises). But that would be quite random, since Daniel was dead, and he lived in the Babylonian period many centuries prior. What if the author was invoking a messianic figure - a 'Muhammad', who was expected?
The date isn't that precise. It is either June or July 523 CE. There isn't necessarily a Messianic figure invoked in this text. There simply isn't enough there in the text to make the case for a definite messianic invocation. Especially if you compare it to Christian texts of the Abyssinian rule over South-Arabia, following the Himyaritic rule. The language there, explicitly states either Christ or Messiah. Even Rabbinical texts that proach the subject are more explicit. What your post reminds me of, is the divine protection formulae for texts. It is one we don't really see in Judaic, and Christian texts committed to vellum, papyrus, or paper. But is there in the Quran. It is something that needs to be looked at in more detail.
Surat spelled with a weak s س is an Aramaic/Hebrew origin word meaning a collection/group/ bundle… of, in the Quran case: verses or ideas, a chapter. Surat with a heavier s ص means a picture, image, model,… Hope this is helpful. Enjoyed this video, thanks.
A Himyarite epigraph dated to July 523 AD. It is a prayer for the Jewish Yemenite king. It ends with the following: “May God, to whom the Sky and the Earth belong, bless the king Yūsuf Asʾar Yathʾar, king of all the communes. With the protection of the Sky and the Earth and the capacities of men, may this inscription [be protected] against any author of damage or degradation, and Raḥmānān Most-High, against any author of degradation [… …] The narration of Tamīm dhu-Ḥaḍyat was composed, written, and carried out in the name of Raḥmānān, Lord of the Jews, with the Praised One (Mḥmd).” The “bi Muhammad” at the end is rather intriguing. The closest Jewish explanation to this phrase is that the author is invoking the prophet Daniel, who is called Ish Hamidot (one of praises). But that would be quite random, since Daniel was dead, and he lived in the Babylonian period many centuries prior. What if the author was invoking a messianic figure - a 'Muhammad', who was expected?
It shows s connection between Iraq and Yemen. The Tayyeye came from Yemen originally. Yemen was part of the Sassanian Empire after 580. So there is an Iraqi and Tenure connection
Not much. We know that Iraq has a sizable population of Yemenite origin, during the early Islamic period. Furthermore we have circumstancial evidence that the Himyarites fled Arabia Felix, after the invasion of the Abyssinians. What it does tell us, is that the Himyarites could have changed something from both a religious as well as a political perspective, in the North. Currently there isn't enough there to definitively prove it, but they could have been the spark that lead to the creation of the Quran, which in turn created Islam. The wars between Byzantium and the Sasanian Empire already created the fuel. It would also provide an explanation the conquest battles that started from the south, for which there is some limited evidence.
One rather confusing point was that he was not making a distinction b/w Mahmad and Muhammad. And the question remains whether we are dealing with Mahmad or Muhammad in early Islam.
All the references in the third section of the presentation were to mḥmd. There are no differences in meaning between muḥammad, maḥmud, and maḥmad. It's the same word, with different vocalizations. If you're referring to mʿmd, that's a different word from a different root, which was not discussed. The Latin /h/ is not the correct letter for transcription of both words. There is no Semitic word transcribed as mhmd as far as I'm aware.
My knowledge of Arabic is very limited, but as I understand it Mahmad مَحمَد (based on its weight وزن) refers to a place (مكان) so most likely it means a place which is praise worthy. Whereas Muhammad مُحمَّد based on its weight (مُفَعَّل) could mean someone who is praised a lot, similarly Muhmud could mean someone who is praised. So I’m not sure what you mean that they are the same word? Grammatically they are obviously different. But my main question is not grammatical or about the meaning necessarily. When we look at the earliest/contemporary sources (which all are non Arab) it seems they all refer to someone with the name Mahmad or Mahmed, this includes syriac, Armenian, Persian coins, and more importantly Greek sources which have vowelization. (There is a video on Greek sources by Paul Ellis on Pfanderfilms). So my question is in early days what was this person called? How come apparently his name changed from Mahmad to Muhammad in later Islamic sources? Does this show a discontinuity in the transmission ?
@@traveleurope5756 Ah okay now I understand your question better. The pre-Islamic writings were all without any vowels, when originally written. Even the Quran didn't have any. So we don't known (for sure) which vowels to plug in. And the one vowel that matters the most is the one that comes after the mem. This influences the meaning the most, in all Semitic languages. The rest is not that consequential. But in the presentation we did not look at any MSA, so MSA rules do not apply. So we have to use context to derive the meaning. You have seen all attestations prior to the Quran, in the presentation. It's not a whole lot to go by, to figure out the exact nuance. The earliest mention by name or title outside Islamic sources is in the Syriac BL ADD MS 14461, where it's spelled as ܡܘܚܡܕ - mwḥmd. While Thomas the Presbyter has ܡܚܡܬ - mḥmt. Based on what I have seen I think the first vowel would probably be a /u/. I would have to look into Paul's work on the Greek. But it mahmad in Greek could have been מעמד / معمد in JBA, a Jewish council. But to confirm I'll have to look into Paul's work and refresh myself on Aramaic to Greek historical transcription.
I have, for quite some time, found the polyptoton 'rhmn rhmn' particularly interesting. It appears in pagan, Jewish and Christian inscriptions from S Arabia, plus, of course, the basmala (and the letter to the Queen of Sheba - the Qur'an's only S Arabian character - of Q.27.30). 'The Compassionate, the Merciful' is completely inadequate as a translation, especially since, in the Qur'an, Rahman is never associated with mercy (quite the opposite!) The two forms of the same word, juxtaposed, obviously has a significance that goes beyond the etymology of the word rhmn itself. It seems to be an explicit S Arabian or Ethiopic formula. I suspect it involves the two words' close appearance in Exodus 33.19 'And I will shew mercy [rihamti] on whom I will shew mercy [a-rahem].'
Exo. 33:19 ...and-[give] mercy-mine (ורחמתי) relative pronoun (אשר) I-[will] show-mercy (ארחם). Modern English would be: ...I will give my mercy on whom I will show mercy. This specific structure isn't there in the South Arabian inscription of the Bismillah.
@@TheLinguist601 Thank you. It seems rather tautologous, or at least uninformative, to say 'I shall give my mercy to those to whom I give my mercy.' I assume that the meaning is that God will give His mercy to whomever He pleases. He will not be Merciful to everyone. My point was that the rhmn-rhmn polyptoton had an established S Arabian usage amongst both Jews and Christians, before it became incorporated in the Qur'an. The formula is sufficiently distinctive that it seems likely to me that they are all connected. But what does it mean? If the idea in Ex. 33.19 could be abbreviated to 'I show mercy to those I show mercy to' could this have led to God becoming known as He-who-is-merciful-to-those-to-whom-He-shows-mercy and could this idea lie behind the rhmn-rhmn polyptoton? The idea of God being free to do as He will, even to the point of being capricious, seems an important strand of meaning in the Qur'an which condemns the Jews for saying that God's 'hand is shackled' .
@@paulellis5101 mmm...I haven't considered that way of putting it... I mean the polyptoton. One more thing to think about, thanks. G-ds hands being shackled is only by his own choice, as far as I understand that view.
Yes, kʿb is attested in South-Arabia as a name. It means "masonry block" in Sabaic. It is written as كعب, which is the same root as kaʿba - كعبة, which is simply the feminine version of the name. Coincidently the Kaaba is built out of blocks. The name of it might not directly be related to the shape. It just might mean "[building of] masonry blocks". His "last name" al-Ahbar, could be from the Hebrew כבר - ḥaḇér meaning friend. Which in Rabbinical language refers to scholars or Rabbi's. It also does mean (religious) scholar in Arabic. So not a name but a title, thus Ka'b the religious scholar, from Yemen. Fits right in the Himyaritic origins hypothesis.
@@TheLinguist601 I agree with a south Arabian component of the mission; agree with Joe from red Judaism and an exilarch effort to conquer Jerusalem The SIN mentions multiple people with very similar names: Omar, Ambros, Amir and Omair are all probably the same person who conquered the Levant in the 6th century. There is a figure mentioned in the John of the Seder story: a Jewish adviser to the Amir. Also there is Jewish advisor who appears with Omar on the Temple Mount and advises him on where to build the temple, it is Ka’ab Alahbar, I think he was the original prophet Could these persons be the same one person who later became the Islamic prophet
Everyone from the Arabian peninsula has Jewish ancestors, it is mathematically inevitable. A large portion of mainland Europeans, also have a Jewish ancestor somewhere in their family tree. It is even likely that a large portion of the population in the British Isles have Jewish ancestors, especially if they have Norman heritage. This however doesn't mean that one necessarily carries DNA that can be identified as such.
this shows that hebrew is derived from ancient arabic/aramaic, just like jiddish from german and ladino from spanish. it seems as if they never had their own language.
Exactly how did you distill that conclusion from the presentation? In the presentation, only one explicit mention of Aramaic was made. And that was with regards to šḥm in Ancient North Arabian. In Aramaic שחמא and in Arabic سحم, in both it means black. In Hebrew שחם means brown, though not mentioned in the presentation. Ugaritic isn't ANA, nor Aramaic. It is a different language. A high lexical similarity does not equate to same language. Grammar also plays an important role. Because if you only go by lexical similarity you could easily defend the position that Ugaritic, Cananite, Hebrew, Aramaic, Ancient North Arabian, Arabic, Ancient South Arabian are all dialects of the same language. To be clear no linguist has this position. We exactly know where Hebrew comes from. It is the direct descendant of Amoritic. A language spoken on the western border of north-Akkadia / ancient Assyria. The Mari letters confirm the Biblical narrative of the father of Abraham, who is both the writer and recipient of several of these letters. It is the right location (Urkesh), date (~1800 BCE) , and local language environment (Amoritic).
I really enjoy the "Linguist". His presentations are well researched. This contains great information. 👍
A fabulous presentation, thank you gentleman
Terima kasih atas segala usaha anda.
A Himyarite epigraph dated to July 523 AD. It is a prayer for the Jewish Yemenite king. It ends with the following:
“May God, to whom the Sky and the Earth belong, bless the king Yūsuf Asʾar Yathʾar, king of all the communes.
With the protection of the Sky and the Earth and the capacities of men, may this inscription [be protected] against any author of damage or degradation, and Raḥmānān Most-High, against any author of degradation [… …] The narration of Tamīm dhu-Ḥaḍyat was composed, written, and carried out in the name of Raḥmānān, Lord of the Jews, with the Praised One (Mḥmd).”
The 'bi Muhammad' at the end is rather intriguing. The closest Jewish explanation to this phrase is that the author is invoking the prophet Daniel, who is called Ish Hamidot (one of praises). But that would be quite random, since Daniel was dead, and he lived in the Babylonian period many centuries prior. What if the author was invoking a messianic figure - a 'Muhammad', who was expected?
The date isn't that precise. It is either June or July 523 CE.
There isn't necessarily a Messianic figure invoked in this text. There simply isn't enough there in the text to make the case for a definite messianic invocation. Especially if you compare it to Christian texts of the Abyssinian rule over South-Arabia, following the Himyaritic rule. The language there, explicitly states either Christ or Messiah. Even Rabbinical texts that proach the subject are more explicit.
What your post reminds me of, is the divine protection formulae for texts. It is one we don't really see in Judaic, and Christian texts committed to vellum, papyrus, or paper. But is there in the Quran. It is something that needs to be looked at in more detail.
Surat spelled with a weak s س is an Aramaic/Hebrew origin word meaning a collection/group/ bundle… of, in the Quran case: verses or ideas, a chapter.
Surat with a heavier s ص means a picture, image, model,…
Hope this is helpful. Enjoyed this video, thanks.
First!
Last time I wrote first on Cira International, I was called out. 😆I think it has to count for something, though. 😂
A Himyarite epigraph dated to July 523 AD. It is a prayer for the Jewish Yemenite king. It ends with the following:
“May God, to whom the Sky and the Earth belong, bless the king Yūsuf Asʾar Yathʾar, king of all the communes.
With the protection of the Sky and the Earth and the capacities of men, may this inscription [be protected] against any author of damage or degradation, and Raḥmānān Most-High, against any author of degradation [… …] The narration of Tamīm dhu-Ḥaḍyat was composed, written, and carried out in the name of Raḥmānān, Lord of the Jews, with the Praised One (Mḥmd).”
The “bi Muhammad” at the end is rather intriguing. The closest Jewish explanation to this phrase is that the author is invoking the prophet Daniel, who is called Ish Hamidot (one of praises). But that would be quite random, since Daniel was dead, and he lived in the Babylonian period many centuries prior. What if the author was invoking a messianic figure - a 'Muhammad', who was expected?
Rab makes great looking jackets.
if you define paganism as mutiple deities and/or including antropomorphic deities, christianity is also a pagan religion. lets not forget that.
That actor from Friends died yesterday. He was very famous for saying "I am moving to Yemen".
There are no coincidences.
What does this do to the "Northern Origin" theory?
It shows s connection between Iraq and Yemen. The Tayyeye came from Yemen originally. Yemen was part of the Sassanian Empire after 580. So there is an Iraqi and Tenure connection
Not much. We know that Iraq has a sizable population of Yemenite origin, during the early Islamic period.
Furthermore we have circumstancial evidence that the Himyarites fled Arabia Felix, after the invasion of the Abyssinians.
What it does tell us, is that the Himyarites could have changed something from both a religious as well as a political perspective, in the North. Currently there isn't enough there to definitively prove it, but they could have been the spark that lead to the creation of the Quran, which in turn created Islam. The wars between Byzantium and the Sasanian Empire already created the fuel. It would also provide an explanation the conquest battles that started from the south, for which there is some limited evidence.
@@TheLinguist601 Thanks for that very helpful reply
The Tayyeye were from Yemen and they settled in Iraq.
One rather confusing point was that he was not making a distinction b/w Mahmad and Muhammad. And the question remains whether we are dealing with Mahmad or Muhammad in early Islam.
All the references in the third section of the presentation were to mḥmd. There are no differences in meaning between muḥammad, maḥmud, and maḥmad. It's the same word, with different vocalizations.
If you're referring to mʿmd, that's a different word from a different root, which was not discussed.
The Latin /h/ is not the correct letter for transcription of both words. There is no Semitic word transcribed as mhmd as far as I'm aware.
My knowledge of Arabic is very limited, but as I understand it Mahmad مَحمَد (based on its weight وزن) refers to a place (مكان) so most likely it means a place which is praise worthy. Whereas Muhammad مُحمَّد based on its weight (مُفَعَّل) could mean someone who is praised a lot, similarly Muhmud could mean someone who is praised. So I’m not sure what you mean that they are the same word? Grammatically they are obviously different.
But my main question is not grammatical or about the meaning necessarily. When we look at the earliest/contemporary sources (which all are non Arab) it seems they all refer to someone with the name Mahmad or Mahmed, this includes syriac, Armenian, Persian coins, and more importantly Greek sources which have vowelization. (There is a video on Greek sources by Paul Ellis on Pfanderfilms). So my question is in early days what was this person called? How come apparently his name changed from Mahmad to Muhammad in later Islamic sources? Does this show a discontinuity in the transmission ?
@@traveleurope5756 Ah okay now I understand your question better. The pre-Islamic writings were all without any vowels, when originally written. Even the Quran didn't have any. So we don't known (for sure) which vowels to plug in. And the one vowel that matters the most is the one that comes after the mem. This influences the meaning the most, in all Semitic languages. The rest is not that consequential. But in the presentation we did not look at any MSA, so MSA rules do not apply. So we have to use context to derive the meaning. You have seen all attestations prior to the Quran, in the presentation. It's not a whole lot to go by, to figure out the exact nuance.
The earliest mention by name or title outside Islamic sources is in the Syriac BL ADD MS 14461, where it's spelled as ܡܘܚܡܕ - mwḥmd.
While Thomas the Presbyter has ܡܚܡܬ - mḥmt.
Based on what I have seen I think the first vowel would probably be a /u/.
I would have to look into Paul's work on the Greek. But it mahmad in Greek could have been מעמד / معمد in JBA, a Jewish council. But to confirm I'll have to look into Paul's work and refresh myself on Aramaic to Greek historical transcription.
I have, for quite some time, found the polyptoton 'rhmn rhmn' particularly interesting. It appears in pagan, Jewish and Christian inscriptions from S Arabia, plus, of course, the basmala (and the letter to the Queen of Sheba - the Qur'an's only S Arabian character - of Q.27.30).
'The Compassionate, the Merciful' is completely inadequate as a translation, especially since, in the Qur'an, Rahman is never associated with mercy (quite the opposite!) The two forms of the same word, juxtaposed, obviously has a significance that goes beyond the etymology of the word rhmn itself. It seems to be an explicit S Arabian or Ethiopic formula. I suspect it involves the two words' close appearance in Exodus 33.19 'And I will shew mercy [rihamti] on whom I will shew mercy [a-rahem].'
Exo. 33:19 ...and-[give] mercy-mine (ורחמתי) relative pronoun (אשר) I-[will] show-mercy (ארחם).
Modern English would be:
...I will give my mercy on whom I will show mercy.
This specific structure isn't there in the South Arabian inscription of the Bismillah.
@@TheLinguist601 Thank you. It seems rather tautologous, or at least uninformative, to say 'I shall give my mercy to those to whom I give my mercy.' I assume that the meaning is that God will give His mercy to whomever He pleases. He will not be Merciful to everyone.
My point was that the rhmn-rhmn polyptoton had an established S Arabian usage amongst both Jews and Christians, before it became incorporated in the Qur'an. The formula is sufficiently distinctive that it seems likely to me that they are all connected.
But what does it mean? If the idea in Ex. 33.19 could be abbreviated to 'I show mercy to those I show mercy to'
could this have led to God becoming known as He-who-is-merciful-to-those-to-whom-He-shows-mercy and could this idea lie behind the rhmn-rhmn polyptoton?
The idea of God being free to do as He will, even to the point of being capricious, seems an important strand of meaning in the Qur'an which condemns the Jews for saying that God's 'hand is shackled' .
@@paulellis5101 mmm...I haven't considered that way of putting it... I mean the polyptoton. One more thing to think about, thanks.
G-ds hands being shackled is only by his own choice, as far as I understand that view.
Ka’ab Al-Ahbar is said to be a Jewish sage from Yemen !!
Yes, kʿb is attested in South-Arabia as a name. It means "masonry block" in Sabaic. It is written as كعب, which is the same root as kaʿba - كعبة, which is simply the feminine version of the name.
Coincidently the Kaaba is built out of blocks. The name of it might not directly be related to the shape. It just might mean "[building of] masonry blocks".
His "last name" al-Ahbar, could be from the Hebrew כבר - ḥaḇér meaning friend. Which in Rabbinical language refers to scholars or Rabbi's. It also does mean (religious) scholar in Arabic. So not a name but a title, thus Ka'b the religious scholar, from Yemen. Fits right in the Himyaritic origins hypothesis.
@@TheLinguist601
I agree with a south Arabian component of the mission; agree with Joe from red Judaism and an exilarch effort to conquer Jerusalem
The SIN mentions multiple people with very similar names:
Omar, Ambros, Amir and Omair are all probably the same person who conquered the Levant in the 6th century.
There is a figure mentioned in the John of the Seder story: a Jewish adviser to the Amir. Also there is Jewish advisor who appears with Omar on the Temple Mount and advises him on where to build the temple, it is Ka’ab Alahbar, I think he was the original prophet
Could these persons be the same one person who later became the Islamic prophet
Around 20mins the speaker says he finds the root word for Mohammed 8 times in the ot scriptures but does not qualify those references? Can he enlarge?
All 8 are shown and discussed in the presentation
1Ki 20:6
Eze 24:16,21,25
Hos 9:6,16
Lam 2:4
SnG 5:16.
So, the name Mauwiya does not mean "from Merv"?
I think it was Ohlig who claimed Marwan meant from Merv. But, I have my doubts on whether he is correct on that.
Hopefully the Saud family has Jewish blood line.
That rumour has been around in the middle east for decades.
Everyone from the Arabian peninsula has Jewish ancestors, it is mathematically inevitable.
A large portion of mainland Europeans, also have a Jewish ancestor somewhere in their family tree. It is even likely that a large portion of the population in the British Isles have Jewish ancestors, especially if they have Norman heritage. This however doesn't mean that one necessarily carries DNA that can be identified as such.
How can you possibly date a rock inscription?
Rock inscriptions are dated by epigraphy, if no explicit date is given. The dates in the presentation are based on the fields consensus.
this shows that hebrew is derived from ancient arabic/aramaic, just like jiddish from german and ladino from spanish. it seems as if they never had their own language.
Exactly how did you distill that conclusion from the presentation?
In the presentation, only one explicit mention of Aramaic was made. And that was with regards to šḥm in Ancient North Arabian. In Aramaic שחמא and in Arabic سحم, in both it means black. In Hebrew שחם means brown, though not mentioned in the presentation.
Ugaritic isn't ANA, nor Aramaic. It is a different language. A high lexical similarity does not equate to same language. Grammar also plays an important role. Because if you only go by lexical similarity you could easily defend the position that Ugaritic, Cananite, Hebrew, Aramaic, Ancient North Arabian, Arabic, Ancient South Arabian are all dialects of the same language. To be clear no linguist has this position.
We exactly know where Hebrew comes from. It is the direct descendant of Amoritic. A language spoken on the western border of north-Akkadia / ancient Assyria. The Mari letters confirm the Biblical narrative of the father of Abraham, who is both the writer and recipient of several of these letters. It is the right location (Urkesh), date (~1800 BCE) , and local language environment (Amoritic).
Second
Alraabie
Third.