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Mocking and Slander Is Not Going to Fix Evangelicalism | Ligon Duncan on The Moscow Mood
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- Опубликовано: 17 мар 2024
- Ligon Duncan discusses The Moscow Mood and the state of modern evangelicalism.
Full Episode:
• Thoughts on Theonomy &...
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Debate Doug, see if he’s in the fetal position
Dr. Duncan has repeatedly declined to speak publicly or privately with Pastor Wilson.
Second this! I’ll attend and bring my own WCF!
All bark no bite from "tail between the legs" Duncan.
😏
It was Jesus who called Herod a fox. Not John the Baptist.....
I had that same thought exactly when he made that false claim
Which, as the late great Greg Bahnsen once pointed out, was tantamount to Jesus calling Herod a “little bitch.” 😂
@@chriscomis9429 oh for crying out loud
Which turns his argument perfectly on its head.
@@chriscomis9429Be careful…you’re offending the delicate sensibilities of those with itching ears. 😂
To say mocking has no place whatsoever is unbiblical. Mocking is a tool that should be used with wisdom and care, but it should still be used to expose high handed sin and rebellion.
You say mockers and slanderers aren’t Christian’s, and you misrepresent and mock everyone you just talked about…..
Amen!!
What a silly interview from a silly man.
💯
A pastor who replaces the gospel with CRT shouldn't be lecturing anyone, on anything.
Who is the audience for Ligon Duncan at this point?
Did he really do that??
@@CalvinMaclure
Anything they disagree with regarding race gets labeled CRT so that they can just pretend it’s illegitimate
That's slander. He didn't do that at all... and you know it, I'm sure.
I guess slander’s only wrong when it’s other people doing it.
Oh, and about that fox comment….
Eve: God said we must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden. Satan: It's actually nuanced
Ligon Duncan slanders Doug Wilson and the Moscow crew in a grievous way here. He needs to be called for account. It's actually shocking how much he lies about and slanders them.
You want to love the world that hates you but you don't make an effort to love your brothers who have some theological differences with them. how does this work?
Wait a minute...Jesus was the one who called Herod, "that fox".
Haha, true. Perhaps he was thinking about John calling the Pharisees a "brood of vipers".
Jesus also affirmed John's entire ministry, saying of him "no one greater than John the Baptist" (Matthew 11:11). Now read the following verses - maybe all the way to the end of the chapter. Maybe we should see who John and Jesus really were at that time and in that situation, and learn (exegete) rather than inject (eisegete) our present-day "Big Eva" sensibilities?
@@arnor811 In Matt 3:7 John the Baptist was using precise theological language when he said "Γεννήματα ἐχιδνῶν" [generation of snakes]. That refers to Gen 3:15 when the human race is divided into the unregenerate "seed of the serpent" and those in Christ as the "seed of the woman". In Matt 12:34 Jesus uses the exact same term. It wasn't just slinging around badass language like a wannabe tough guy. It was very theological. Just like when Jesus said the Pharisees were "of their father the devil'. Or when John talks about Cain being "of the evil one".
@@grahamdugas8729 I'm not making any particular point myself about these texts. It was noted that Jesus was the one who used the term "fox", contra what was stated in the video.
I've taken questions in front of a crowd, and it can be difficult to keep all the details correct when answering off the cuff questions.
So all I'm suggesting is that the vipers text was the one most likely intended. I'm not putting in a judgement as to the correctness of it.
And as Greg Bahnsen once pointed out in a lecture of his, this was Jesus’ way of calling Herod a “little bitch” to his Roman masters.
“If you’re having statist problems I feel bad for you son; I got 99 problems but being a bitch ain’t one!”
"Those Moscow Mood people are a bunch of slanders and that's bad..... (then proceeds to slander)... I don't think they're Christians."
Rank hypocrisy.
Ligan Duncan, who hiccuped on race issue so badly, wrote a forward to Mason’s Woke Church, can sit this one out. Sorry, you had an opportunity to be courageous, and instead you chose self preservation.
Couple of abject hypocrites here. Really repulsive stuff.
Anyone who apologizes for the Wilsonites can sit out commenting on anyone else’s perceived hypocrisy
@@paulacoyle5685 What you’ve done is called “ad hominem”- an insult or criticism without substance or justification. That’s the tactic of liars when they know they have no ability to counter their opponent. It’s how angry children and Leftists argue.
@@matthewdyer2926 Actually that's what you just did too... ad hominem against @paulacoyle5685. You said she's a liar and has no ability to counter her opponent. Neither you nor @jennal8684 have made a substantive Biblical argument against anything Ligon said.
@@JonathanNYCity I know they don't teach logic in government schools, but if you're going to attempt to hang, I suggest you pick yourself up a textbook and give it a glance.
Pointing out a textbook example of ad hominem and stating the kind of person who employs that particular fallacy is not itself a fallacy; it is just a true statement. Exposing ad hominem is not ad hominem. It's embarrassing that this needs to be explained.
My "substantive Biblical argument" against Duncan is that _he is lying._ God hates lies and liars. Is it possible the reason Duncan's lies don't bother you is because he's speaking your native language? Choose your side more carefully.
thank you so much for providing us with this very fine gold.
Ligon Duncan and Kevin deyoung have made me stumble with this whole Moscow fiasco. Publicly rebuking but ignoring Doug Wilson when he says he was misrepresented by the article. If a brother says I misrepresented him, it is my duty to scripture to hear him out. If ligon and KDY are so bold, I implore them to sit publicly with Doug Wilson on this instead of lobbing grenades behind a keyboard.
I dont read a single comment in support of Duncan
Ligon is a manipulator. Not sure if its Wolf, fox, viper or... tactics?
Indeed. During the Federal Vision controversy, I'm quite sure some people tangentially involved (like 6 degrees of separation) lost jobs or didn't get hired for positions in PCA-affiliated organizations due to Duncan and others.
I already do not like this guy by just listening to this before it finishes.
Duncan is just completely off the mark here. Those who embraced the "Moscow Mood" aren't "lobbing grenades indiscriminately", nor are they LARPing. They are living our their Christian convictions in their daily lives, and that means standing up against secular and antibiblical ideologies that have engrained themselves within the popular culture, and within Christianity. They are specifically targeting those idols, and refusing to bend on doctrines that Duncan and Big Eva have.
At the end of the day, this really does just seem like Big Eva being mad that Moscow holds a more biblical worldview, and they don't have the 11th Commandment of "Don't be mean." I hope this causes Duncan to engage in some self-reflection, and begin to ask why so many of the most faithful Christians have stood up and accused them of betraying their constituents, and refusing to stand up for truth.
Honestly the more I listen to this the more disgusted by Duncan I am. He spends his entire interview saying that mocking and slandering is bad, and then proceeds to mock, slander, and call into question the salvation of his Christian brothers. The "Moscow Mood" folks mock evil, while Duncan mocks the righteous. Truly foul, and Duncan *dreadfully* needs to repent.
Ligon Duncan Mood: 💤
The Mood of Compromise, to paraphrase the title of one his students' awful books.
@@johnp7739or the mood of not knowing what time it is, because in his wokeness he's actually oversleeping!
seems like a lot of grenades gettin lobbed here
I encourage people to listen to Contra Mundum's, Right Response Ministries', Apologia Studios', and Conversations That Matter's response to this video.
and AD Robles
@@Glennfariss just listened to his videos and yes!
and Joe Boot at the Ezra Institute
Yes to all. Especially Joe Boot/Ezra Institute. Theirs was fantastic, esp on the theonomy bit.
Anyone down for the fight would actually be willing to speak with their opponent. That applies to these two gentlemen as well. Sean, when are you going to invite DW for a friendly convo on this channel?
Yes please!
It happened!
This is the guy who was Mr. CRT
"...put them in a room and you'd have them in a fetal position in three seconds."
"If some of these folks had been around, they would have been going, "Yay John the Baptist. Jesus, you're a weasel...."
No mockery or slander here. Incredible.
I am encouraged that the comments section seems to be full of people who aren’t buying what’s being sold here. Ligon Duncan used to have my respect, but he’s compromised and has commended compromise with the world as a tactic. One can critique the “Moscow mood,” by throwing out a bunch of phrases like “lobbing hand grenades” and “wounding brothers,” but it does little to actually address the issue at hand. I’m tired of poetic sounding language used by folks from SBC, TGC, and others who aren’t willing to address specific issues. What sort of criticisms are the Moscow mood people giving, and are they valid? That’s what needs to be asked. What’s more, mockery is not evil, slander is. Jesus mocked the Pharisees. Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal, and Paul often used a “harsh” tone in his letters. Ligon lumps the two together all while accusing other brothers of wanting to wound the church and some of not being Christians. If nothing else that is borderline slander.
Whats interesting is Ligon and Kevin don't seem willing to engage Moacow Mood folks when invited...who's in the "fetal position"?
Dr. Duncan, if you're going to make accusations against the brethren, please do so with a higher degree of specificity. And please do it according to the Matthew 18 heuristic, not with this public-first bombasticism.
Pastor DeMars, please call your guests to this standard as well.
Can’t believe you have a stud guest like Rosaria on your show then follow it up with this guy.
Michael, you intend this as a critique, but I take it as a compliment. Jesus had a tax collector and a zealot on the same team of disciples. The kingdom of God is not composed of only those most narrowly reformed people we think get it all exactly right.
@@jesusrocks256 Thanks, Sean. We look forward to your Doug Wilson interview. 😀
Ligon is woke. We shouldn't expect more of him.
Easy way to address this......one on one debate with Doug Wilson. Person who refuses is in the wrong.
Yup. It was good enough for John Piper ...
the funniest part of the interview was him saying that he'd have guys like us that are "larp-ing" crying in the fetal position...give me a break
Pure slander. Both of you need to repent and owe Doug an apology.
We lose RC and then the rest of the T4G crew goes nuts. Pretty sure Doug Wilson is doing more for the Kingdom than Duncan has in a hot minute.
Interesting, made me go read RC on this, after referencing his "theonomic friends" -->
"…be careful not to heed those critics who have precious little understanding of theonomy or reconstruction. Those on the left, both theologically and politically, delight to present these heirs of the Puritans as evangelical jihadists hell-bent on imposing a Calvinistic fascist regime on the rest of the world. Nothing could be further from the truth. Theonomists, like the rest of us, long to see justice in the political realm. They long to see the nations discipled. They long to see the kingdom made manifest. They long to see every knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Who, within His kingdom, could ever argue with that?"
Ligon Duncan lost major credibility with me long ago when I saw his shift to embracing Neo-Marxist derivative CRT and mixing it with the gospel. Also, does Lingon's statement represent the truth that Moscow throwing grenades is THEE model for Moscow's faithfulness ? I think beyond a shadow of a doubt that is a false statement given all of the ministries Moscow focuses on. I think Ligon did not do himself any favors in this video in my humble opinion.
P.S. Jesus did call the pharisees a brood of vipers. Not so winsome would Lingon say? I don't want to put words in his mouth but I have a strong feeling Lignon would have heartburn over Jesus's anti-winsome characterization to the pharisees faces. BTW winsome is not a biblical principle.
Really? This is the LORD speaking in Proverbs 1:26.... "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."
Wow he accused Moscow of slander which was actually Duncan committing the slander. Duncan is a snake. This interview is chock full of lies. Oh my😮. Based I this and other things Duncan has done in the last few years, he is prone to lying. Very sad that this is one of the “conservative” evangelical leaders. I mean look at the broader conservative evangelical church in the US and it makes sense. “A student will be like his teacher.”
Ironic that this is called "Room for Nuance," because that wasn't nuanced at all
KDY is down for the fight? Even though he literally said in his article that he is not willing to have a conversation? Talk about lobbing a grenade and walking away...
For someone who has observed fairly both sides of the debate on the "Moscow Mood", Duncan loses credibility early in this video. He makes a caricature of those he opposes. Caricaturing an opponent is a form of lying. Just sayin...
New to this phrase or title .. What is the Moscow Mood?
@@cat-bg3rvgoogle an article by Kevin DeYoung about the Moscow Mood
It's a phrase that Kevin DeYoung coined in a recent article he wrote to describe the ministry of Canon Press. @@cat-bg3rv
@@cat-bg3rv Moscow, Idaho is the city in which Wilson's ministry is located. "Moscow Mood" simply is a catch phrase for the overall 'mood" of the ministry there. To really understand it fairly, go read/listen/watch some of the stuff they produce.
@@nazhospes Thank you. Blessings.
" How do I love a world that hates me?" " Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."-James 4:4. "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof; but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever."-1st Jn. 2:15-17.
What's he doing here? Justin Peters already exposed his wokeness.
So did Pulpit and Pen years ago. Ligon is also pals with a guy named James Riady, who's donated to RTS. Riady lives in Malaysia (I believe), is friends with the Clintons, and was banned from entering the U.S. by the State Deparment. Very shady guy, along the lines of George Soros.
Truly unbelievable! Just cannot believe Sean was part of this, he seemed to display so much integrity and discernment in the past.
Integrity confirmed, thank you Sean! May God bless your ministry!!!
Ligon is clueless. He didn’t offer a single honest criticism, only slander.
Yall need to repent of this slander.
Wow. Condemning slander that never happened with slander of his own. Seems a bit tone deaf.
"tone deaf" = perfect comment!
It is pretty funny that Doug was being interviewed by Tucker Carlson about the time this "we-don't-want-people-taking-cues-from-them!" speech was being made. The Wilson/Carlson interview has been out for a day and it has 6.9 million views on X.
There needs to be a council where all these guys sit down and hash it out. I hear great points from both sides; but probably more points from the Moscow & Ogden guys (King’s Hall Podcast guys). Many times these guys are talking past one another. But when I look at guys who are institutionally connected with a lot of money at stake if they come across as a prophet calling out sin it makes me wonder if they are forced to protect their interests over against saying something that needs to be said. Many of these well connected guys many times remind me of politicians.
The Moscow and Ogden guys would be willing. But Duncan here admits he doesn't even see those folks as Christian.
@@kylesimmons9457 I heard that. Very bothersome he said that. I wish he would have said more about why he thinks they’re not Christian.
Yeah, Moscow and Ogden maybe. People like Duncan, Owen Strachan and the Escondido crowd would have zero interest.
Is nuance just euphemism for compromise? Self loathing, wokeness pandering Duncan is going to lecture us about Moscow mood? Risible if it weren’t tragic.
Kevin and Duncan have a Christian duty to have a mic off conversation with Doug Wilson. "mocking and slander is not way to deal with Christians," immediately after Duncan mocks his online trolls saying "they'd be curled up in a fetal position" how is that not hypocrisy?
This whole interview really gets at the heart of the theological and cultural differences between a postmill approach to culture, and the amill approach to the same. And LD (along with the dude interviewing him) are definitely showing their “amill colors” here. Big Eva, and the entire PCA/Reformed church in our day is thoroughly infected with emasculated and effeminate Christianity. And they try and pass it off as more “winsome” and “loving,” too. But in the final analysis, it’s just another form of cultural disengagement.
I like the sense of your comment, but the vehicle to carry your point misses the mark.
I am died in the wool Amil. As is Voddie Baucham. There is no connection to effeminate Christianity and eschatology.
Winsome is a slick lie from Satan infecting much of the church these days. In many churches and many denominations. I am thankful for Doug and many other great Christian brothers who are died in the wool Postmils - I don't even mind that it influences the "Moscow Mood" (as it should).
I've heard plenty of righteous mockery by those in the Moscow mood, but all the slander I've heard has been directed at them, as Duncan does here. Shame on him.
You should know better Sean but yet you persist.
More Moscow Mood, please!!
[Luk 13:31-32 NIV] 31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you." 32 He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.'
Ligon Duncan talk around the subject. It was a word salad. He doesnt define what 'Moscow Mood' means for instance. Weak.
Please have a debate with Doug, Ligon. Settle it. This is exactly what we’re all frustrated by. You throw the grenade and then refuse to have an actual debate with Doug. If his theology is so wrong, why don’t you directly criticize that? State your issues, and defend your side. Instead you say Doug is more interested in branding or whatever but never get to the point.
Couple of abject hypocrites here.
😂😂 On top all this nonsense he spoke did he really compare Daniel working for the government to today’s politicians corruption??? Is he serious???
I'm really disappointed with Lig here. He was one of my role models (along with John Piper, RC Sproul, Francis Schaefer, Mohler, Dever, Grudem, McArthur, etc) back in the early 2000s when I came to reformed theology. His mocking, slander, and indiscriminate grenade throwing in this interview is appalling. He was way out of line. Is the PCA really becoming the PCUSA of the 21st century?
Sir, you just slandered and sent to hell thousands of people! Amazing! The Hypocrisy!!! 😳😔
I already love the world. I need to unlearn that.
Amen!
Both the interviewer and the interviewee are prime reasons why we must have mockery in our toolkit. I wouldn't follow either of these squishy dudes into a kickball tournament.
Dang, the narrative really is getting away from y'all if your own comment section is turning on you.
Keep being faithful, Dr Duncan!
He speaks of mockers and slanderers while slandering by saying they are not Christians🤦🏽♀️😣
Fetal position? Has Ligon Duncan ever stood against the winds of the wicked secular culture?
Is KDY down for the fight if he won’t follow up on his own article and the pushback it has gotten from those he wrote it against? 😂
Look. I would go as far as to say “he owes” the Moscow crew an opportunity to directly address this kind of talk. But it would be appropriate for them to have a private discussion OR a public forum debate or dialogue addressing these items.
I'm not sure if I'm sad or angry. The lack of desire to reconcile and communicate is unacceptable for a professing believer.
Very poor from Duncan , it seems he doesn’t mind flinging a Grenade towards Christians just not towards anyone in the world. Also his statement about fetal position was very disrespectful. The world would know Christ by just our love for them, but more importantly our love for one another. Very dispointing.
I’m really disappointed with KDY, probably for the first time. He’s usually more careful, more balanced. But Ligon. Oh, my, my. It appears the man is a total sell out. Incapable of nuance. He really needs to be booed off the stage.
So, ‘Room for Nuance’ - are you going to respond to the criticisms here?
For all you saying that Ligon Duncan should debate Doug Wilson, let me remind you that its PHD vs no seminary training.
Yet he cant correctly attribute scripture. Ill take the over / under on that all day long.
@@NealBenedict just go listen to Ligon Duncan speak about covenant theology and I promise you he knows what's he's talking about. I don't agree with everything Ligon says, but to blatantly call him a false teacher is an entirely different thing
These type of guys really need to look into trt. We're not supposed to have women in the pulpit
lol the irony
It is a result of the type of argument that you prefer, where it can only be shown wrong reducto as absurdium. So the absurd is presented and it usually comes across mockingly, intended or not. People who hold ridiculous beliefs should be mocked... because you usually can't reason with them anymore and it warns others to stay away. If you believe the earth was once ruled by giant angel babies who established the first human empires, you are unqualified to teach. If you believe taking a bath in public after saying some lines glorifying Christ indebts God to you for a mansion in eternal paradise... you have lost your marbles.
Confession through projection.
Oh, yeah, now I remember why I stopped listening to preachers. I guess I thought things might have changed. Nope.
This coming from a woke false preacher? I say false preacher in that you preach a woke theology. I think you need to repent and seek God.
Pot, meet kettle.
This is a ridiculous take. If you feel so strongly then name names. And saying that they would criticize. Daniel is ridiculous as God told the Israelites to seek to prosper the nation that they were in.
Logon Duncan nails it. He’s 100% correct
Nails what? Nails his own ignorance.
I encourage people to listen to Contra Mundum's, Right Response Ministries', Apologia Studios', and Conversations That Matter's response to this video.