Thoughts on Theonomy & Christian Engagement with Culture | Ligon Duncan
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- Опубликовано: 14 июл 2024
- Join us for a conversation with Ligon Duncan as we discuss Theonomy, the state of modern evangelicalism, how we are to engage with modern culture as Christians, and how we should approach disagreements with other brothers and sisters in Christ.
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0:00 Intro
0:23 Opening Prayer
0:50 Testimony
9:08 The Battle for the Bible
11:42 Christianity Over the Last 5 years
18:16 Complementarianism
21:20 Thoughts on Tim Keller
28:44 Classical Theism
34:50 The Moscow Mood
38:25 Big Eva
40:05 Mocking and Slander
46:10 Theonomy
52:44 Closing Prayer
53:50 Missions Conference AD
55:01 Coram Deo Conference AD
56:03 10ofThose AD
I am grieved by this. Ligon Duncan is a brother in Christ. But he is either speaking out of sheer ignorance, or malicious spite towards other ministers of the Gospel If he is speaking out of ignorance, he needs to ask forgiveness from the ones that he essentially lied about. If he is acting out of spite, he needs to repent, and he needs to confess this publicly before the Evangelical World. Where are his fellow elders? They need to hold him accountable. I am praying for the wounds that he inflicted (and that this podcast broadcast) to be healed, and that God would out of his mercy enable us to walk in the unity that Christ purchased, and demands from us.
Obviously it's not ignorance. He's smarter than that
Sean, thank you for appearing on the program with Doug Wilson and Joe Rigney. You were gracious, and you showed that you really do treasure unity. I was greatly blessed and encouraged.
Forty Seven comments at the time of my writing this: two of them are positive about Ligon Duncan's comments.
This man's comments are shameful and, frankly, entirely inaccurate-- which means that they are, themselves, slander. Ligon has shattered his credibility. I second the recommendations given by many comments on this thread: Bring on Doug Wilson to defend himself from this man's lies.
Someone should point out to Ligon Duncan that it was Jesus who called Herod a "fox". Apparently Ligon Duncan would say to Jesus, "You are a mocker and a slanderer. Why can't you be more like Tim Keller?"
Notice how Ligon Duncan prefaced that specific remark by saying Jesus’ contemporaries in favor of “speaking truth to power” would have called Jesus a weasel. I think Duncan is aware that Jesus was the one who called Herod a fox…but he didn’t do it to Herod’s face (as John the Baptizer had). And calling someone a fox (sneaky, cunning) is a far cry from some of the heated, hateful rhetoric coming out of some Christians today.
CREC member here. Love y’all in these comments. Thanks for not putting up with the slander being lobbed at us.
To Mr. Duncan, we love you too even if you hate us.
Ligon's lies about Moscow are truly absurd. This guy endorsed Eric Mason's heretical book and should be completely ignored.
I have seen this interview posted all over other platforms and just wanted to add my name to the calls for repentance.
Repent to what in particular?
@@heathmcpherson8978just guessing, but I would assume misrepresenting his opponents views on theonomy, accusing others of slander without any justification, going on to question their salvation - which actually is slander, calling the people that have invited him to an open public debate "LARPs" and cowards. Just a guess. That's where I would start if I was going to repent for him.
@@heathmcpherson8978 I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you hadn't watched the video yet before commenting...
Question for Ligon, name one metric that moved in a positive direction while you and your peers lead the Reformed Evangelical church in America. You enjoyed peace and prosperity and spent your children's inheritance. You failed to fight, so now your kids must. You should repent and ask for forgiveness for your failures as a leader.
* drops the mic *
Spot on
Well said. Babies are being murdered and children that did not get murdered in the womb are being murdered through sterilization and indoctrination and grooming into rainbow culture. But now is not the time to be combative in the culture war. We need to be soft-spoken and effeminate and quiet, and we need to listen.
How about interviewing theonomists rather than just slandering them? Is there enough room for that kind of nuance?
That's one of the big things about these guys in my experience. They don't do conflict like that. They prefer to talk about you amongst themselves in their comfortable circles. I don't know if it's primarily a temperament thing or what, but it needs to stop.
This is the Nuance for Me but not for Thee podcast episode, didn’t you read the fine print?
Lol, just did an episode with Doug and Joe Rigney.
@@colinfoster7655comment aged like milk
Theonomy is the answer
Yep. Have you heard of the podcast called Theonomoney?
To what?
This the same guy who appointed Jemar Tisby to his seminary?
*Tisby
Sure is!!!
Didn't Ligon write the foward to the woke church? But Douglas is the bad guy??? Is up really down??? Is green really red???
Dear Ligon,
You asked what today's abolitionists were doing back in the day ...
From 1988-1999, four friends and myself -- 2 Reformed, 2 Baptists and 1 Catholic -- were in court with a local abortion clinic over the right to sidewalk-counsel and protest on the public sidewalk. Ours was one of the early "bubble-zone" cases. One of our judges's wives was on the board of Planned Parenthood. Another's wife was a professor of women's studies at the local city college, and her students made up many of the counter-protesters and clinic "escorts" who followed a training manual they produced on how to assault us and lie to the police. The abortionist had a long history of injuring women, and the clinic was staffed by witches -- literally. While we were constantly photographed, we were enjoined from using cameras or video ourselves to document the clinic attacks on us or our own lawful behavior. The judge refused to allow the clinic training manual that confirmed our testimony into evidence. In order to preserve our case, we scrupulously followed the court's injunction while continuing to try to dissuade women from killing their children. Not surprisingly, the judge ruled against us and hit us with the clinic's attorney's fees ... about $120,000 as I recall. So much for nuance.
Years of appeals followed. We got to the front door of the U.S. Supreme twice, but they didn't take the case. Needless to say, this put great stress on our families. I confess I found myself in your proverbial fetal-position-on-the-floor many times. Our debt to the clinic grew at 10 percent per year, plus the clinic's costs of fighting our appeals. I think it had climbed to over $220,000 by the time we ran out of legal options. The debt was joint-and-several, meaning the clinic could go after any one of us -- including our spouses -- to get its money. Two of our group filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy and got through virtually unscathed, with the clinic getting maybe a couple thousand dollars. I filed and got through, with the clinic getting nothing (and no other creditor affected), but then they appealed, arguing the debt was incurred by "willful and malicious conduct," which prevented a Chapter 7 discharge of the debt. I could not afford to fight it. My only option was a Chapter 13 which would require me to make court-ordered payments for whatever length of time the court required. I was not going to give money to an abortion clinic.
So, for the next year I lived something like a fugutive. All cash, no bank account. I cashed my work check at my employer's bank. I paid all bills with cashier checks. I covered the windows of my home with black plastic. I circled the block when I drove home to check for process-servers before quickly zipping into the garage and closing the door behind me. To my horror one morning, I got on the elevator to go to my office and was joined by one of the clinic attorneys. Unknown to me, she had an office in my building. Thereafter, I used the freight elevator to get to my 15th-floor office. It worked, but it was no way to live. And that debt was climbing ... 10 percent per year.
Then, one morning at work, I received a call from a woman I had never met before or since. I knew of her ... a Catholic woman ... wife of a doctor ... reputation for making life as miserable for abortionists as she could. "Would you like to be free of this debt to the clinic?" she asked. I couldn't wrap my mind around her words. It seemed like a trick question. I asked her to repeat it and then asked how.
It seems "our abortionist" -- the one at "our clinic" we tried to warn women about -- had been put on probation with the state medical board once again. His license was under discipline that allowed him to perform abortions only under supervision of another doctor. The scofflaw, however, was working solo as an itinerate abortionist, hopscotching around the state to various clinics. He got caught when one of his "patients" died in her mother's car on the way home from the clinic. Staff reported he had said, "I think I pulled bowel," during the procedure -- and indeed he had. The woman bled heavily from her perforated uterus, but "our abortionist" was unable to stay to guarantee she was stabilized, because he had a flight to catch. The family, working with this Catholic woman I had never met before, sued and, after negotiations, agreed on a sizeable settlement ... with one caveat: "Our clinic" and its attorney -- who was also defending "our abortionist" in this civil case -- had to drop their attorney-fee judgment against us. Do it or go to trial.
Suddenly and miraculously, we were delivered from our enemies. I still tear up whenever I tell the story. God was so gracious to us.
So, Ligon, there it is. Just one war story among thousands of others. No larping. Just God's grace and faithfulness.
Sincerely yours,
JonJaeden
P.S.: Our abortionist was convicted in criminal court for medical negligence and was given a six-month sentence -- totally inadequate, but still the first abortionist to be jailed in California in 50 years. In the midst of all this, I wrote and distributed a small booklet based on Psalm 10 calling on pro-life churches to pray imprecatory psalms on Sanctity of Human Life Sunday. I gave a copy to Frankie Schaeffer when he spoke at a local Operation Rescue rally -- back when he was still a believer. I later noticed his own publication picked up on the imprecatory theme after that, so another small victory. I also, unexpectedly, found myself in the position to turn our city's No. 2 daily newspaper into a pro-life voice following its purchase by a Christian businessman. The economics of the newspaper business beat us, but a number of other pro-life successes grew out of that. And, I have to say, I don't think I would have been part of any this if I had not discovered Rushdoony's "Institutes of Biblical Law" in 1984 or '85.
Amen
This the same guy who endorsed Eric Mason's book Woke Church?
Yeah.. its gay 🌈
What’s so fundamentally wrong with Dr. Mason’s book that Dr. Duncan should not have endorsed it?
@@davido9080it’s a book endorsing critical race theory/social justice
@@outboardprsnlstndup ahhh Social Justice & Critical Race Theory. Words that are often used as a placeholder for “talking about stuff about black people” so I don’t know in which sense you mean those words.
@@davido9080 ah, the typical brush off. No you kind of show your ignorance it is not just about Black people although that is what it has been used about in the last 4 to 8 years it’s really the incorporating of the idea of power dynamics and disparities into decision-making of all types it can include race sexual orientation, economics and a whole host of other things that you would know if you really cared to learn about it. Eric Mason’s book dealt with a lot of things focusing primarily on Black people, but really kind of got into the perceived, disparities what he viewed as Oppressive power dynamics resulting in injustices. But sure your way is an easier way of blowing things off.
Even if Jesus hadn't called Herod out, and John had, the argument sets Jesus against John, as if John, who Jesus said was the greatest among of the prophets, was somehow wrong for rebuking Herod. I guess Mr. Duncan isn't a fan of John the Baptist?
The abortion abolitionist comment was uncalled for. There are abolitionists who have been doing so much for babies and the pro-life movement. I’m sure that there has been a surge in that movement, but the OG ones have been doing hard work for a long time.
Right Response Ministry just released a great response to this interview with Ligon.
You mean the guy that doesn't let his wife read books on baptism because she would be more spiritually advanced than him?
As Keith Foskey just had in a funny video short, you mean Webbon, President Keith’s Minister of clickbait? 😂
Abolitionists have been fighting the prolife movement for years - well before Roe was done with.
Where’s everyone else been?
What are you referring to, friend?
I'm not with the AHA side on some issues but I'm for abolition and criminalization and this interview shows how Big Eva has had its head in the sand on this issue for years.
@@jesusrocks256it is stated in this interview that the abolitionist movement just popped up after Roe was overturned, but that’s just false. There were abolitionists and abolition bills prior to that.
I’m pro abolition but abolitionists should acknowledge that while there were pro lifers who were fine with living permanently under halfway measures there were many of us fighting for constant increments change, the kind that has now made abolition plausible.
Wasnt born yet, you nag!
Mmm, let’s interview Doug Wilson.
Square what was said about the Moscow mood and basically Doug and how he handled this Q&A
The 'fetal position' threat was a shocker. Throwing grenades accusation - I'd call that outright slander. Our family benefitted beyond words from listening to Ligonier conferences with leaders like Ligon Duncan. I'm grieved he has done this to such Godly men 😣
52:56 It seems to me that he gets Rushdoony's Reconstruct wrong. Rushdoony taught tgat when the majority became Christian, it would want to follow the law. He did not believe a minority could force the majority to follow it.
The allergic reaction to theonomy ignores how much of the civil law we have incorporated already, such as the commandments to not steal, murder or kidnap. A republican form of government comes from Gods rejection of monarchy in I Sam 8. There is nothing objectionable about Israel's civil laws.
No matter what critics of theonomy say, the response to their criticism is usually something like, "You don't understand Rushdoony."
@@jesusrocks256- if one demonstrates they do understand, then their misunderstanding won’t be exposed
Have you noticed how the skittles minority has no problem pushing their "moral" code on the majority, but "Christians" can't stand Christians doing the same.
@@jesusrocks256No, I typically say they deny their heritage going back to Calvin and the 1646 Divines.
So, in the name of “nuance”, you’re going to have Doug Wilson on next? I suggest Doug since Duncan was clearly talking about him but too cowardly to just say it
How come nobody will debate or talk to Douglas Wilson himself on Covenant theology, eschatology, paedocommunion, theonomy, how to fight, changing culture, marriage, Christian education, having your own publishing company, and economics. Like real kuyperianism? it's weird.
All this moscowmood thing started was cool memes and probably future tshirts, mugs, bumper stickers, and books.
Btw i live in California...trust me we need more "moscowmoods" More rowdy christians like our church who wont bow down to wokeism...lgbtqism....etc
"The Puritans would be proud!" Oops the host shot Dr Duncan's premise through the foot.
Go listen to Apologia Radio Responding to Ligon Duncan.....
Jesus replied, “Go tell that fox that I will keep on casting out demons and healing people today and tomorrow; and the third day I will accomplish my purpose. Luke 13:32 - Why did you say that Jesus did not call out "that fox" Herod, while implying that today's faithful Christians would have opposed his failure to do so?
THANK YOU!
Does anyone else see that Ligon is doing just what he is accusing others of doing? He is slandering and misrepresenting others often in this interview. I can imagine he has Doug Wilson in mind as he is speaking these things. I have seen Doug in action with those outside the church. He has shown himself to be gracious while at the same time not sacrificing truth. Ligon is demonizing him and others in this interview and he should repent of that IMO.
“As good Bible guys, we can’t just say ‘let’s take the country back,’ that feels carnal.” Based on what? Could it be that you have been conditioned by pietism to “feel” this way when confronted with actually living out your faith?
Child sacrifice must be abolished, saying it's impossible in this feminist world we're in, just means we must embrace the Christian patriarchy, a world where abortion abolition will fit like the hand in the glove.
Men will always decide whether women vote and whether women are allowed to spill baby blood.
Doug Wilson has responded to the allegations presented in this interview. Will you respond by having him on your podcast? Will Ligon Duncan? Will you test the fetal position theory? I’m doubtful, but one can hope.
Ligon Duncan: "Mocking and slandering (evil) is bad"
Also Ligon Duncan: Spends nearly an hour mocking and slandering his Christian brethren.
Exactly right!!!
When the history of how Woke ideology spread in the PCA is written, Ligon Duncan will be one of the most prominent people mentioned.
For 6K views and being out for a month, seeing only 83 likes is telling. Glad you interviewed Doug too.
I would consider it to be a fair thing that this RUclips Channel @Room for Nuance, reads the comments section of this disastrous episode, and make a follow up where they would give a voice to the people that have been slandered.
Seems there is No Room for Post Mill brothers. this is a sad and disingenuous take on people he should see as allies.
All theology aside, the lighting on this interview is horrific! 😎
Not according to Jesus, it isn't, but He doesn't carry much weight in the dominant forms of "Christianity" today.
I don't know what you're talking about. :)
He has completely either misrepresented or misunderstood the position of theonomists. And is completely wrong about Moscow. What happened to this guy? Used to be one of my faves.
34:14 And it also should be permeating how we see our Lord’s Law in every aspect of life. That Christ’s reign is putting all His enemies as His footstool. Not just individuals, but nations. This also is part of the doctrine of the sovereignty of God.
I have no clue who this Ligon Duncan guy is. I've just seen his name around. I had to look up this portion because I saw it quoted and I could not believe that a supposed Christian leader of whatever sort he claims to be, would not know that JESUS is the one who called Herod a fox!
And then he has the gall to accuse others of not knowing their Bibles?!
Good grief. How embarrassing.
Luke 13
(This is Jesus speaking. I'm not going to copy the entire prior paragraphs. But it's clearly Jesus.)
31At that very hour some Pharisees came and said to him, “Get away from here, for Herod wants to kill you.” 32And he said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course.'"
That wasnt a compliment. ?
Who is this guy interviewing Duncan? Is he capable of doing anything other than sycophantically head-nodding Duncan's slander? "Mmhmm, ya, that's right, mmhmm..." His tats say "tough", but his words say "effeminate".
You brothers need to repent of the egregious slander in this particular podcast. What Ligon accused Doug Wilson of (larping) is just so obviously false that it’s truly discouraging that you all would stoop to this level to disguise your hatred for them. At least be honest and say you hate them.
I was wondering how far Doug Wilson was going to transfer denominational membership.
Starts off Baptist, then Reformed Bapist, now Presbyterian.
Is this all in the same location?
Hoping he doesn't get super smart like Hank Hanegraaf and end up in the Orthodox Church.
One if the things Ligon accuses Moscow of doing (slander) he does in this interview. Also it was Jesus who called Herod a fox. Repent
Ligon Duncan, however how educated the man is and the good he did for the church, was bkrn between two pages of Bible, and probably lacks street and real life experiences - I'll say that's the main reason why respect can't outrun what comes out of his mouth.
What conference are they talking about at 12:41? It's a missions conference attended by 11,000 college students.
This is abhorrent
How many times does sean say “yeah” in this episode?
I give up, how many?
He certainly didn't provide a significant response to it or an alternative.
To give Ligon the benefit of the doubt one comment that folks seem upset about here is he didn’t know Jesus is the one calling Herod a Fox and he should have known it. To be clear Jesus said “”Go and tell that Fox….” Ligon’s point was people would ask why didn’t Jesus tell Herod to his face like John the baptist did. He didn’t say John was the one who said that. I of all people defending him is funny because I lost a lot of respect for him over the woke views he’s stated online but he deserves to be represented rightly. I’m trying to come here with open ears and not already angry because he sounds like he’s attacking my favorite beliefs. I’m trying to give him another listen. I think he gave a lot of generalizations mixed in with specific criticisms. He could have spoken clearer. I am not going to doubt his Bible knowledge maybe just his application.
Did he just say people would think John the Baptist was more fiery than Jesus? He should know better.
Did you tell Ligon that you had a conversation with Doug Wilson and he didn’t get into the fetal position? Side bar: does that make Ligon a false prophet 😂
Mr Demars surely messed up on this one. He's barking up the wrong tree! That's for sure. Lol
Ligon slandering as he accuses others of slander. Astonishing. He doesn't even understand what he is critiquing. What happened to these TGC guys... just a bizarre hive mind on full display.
faithful to scripture? is this guy for real?
This just shows me Jesus aint coming back for a long time😢 man we aint gunna change the culture with this thinking...we the small c catholic church needs to reform....so settle in believers....we gotta long fight.
But take heart believers....the gospel is going to win
Habakkuk 2:14
Yep, both of them, slanderous
I hope this episode is an anomaly. If not, Demars should do some serious soul searching
Duncan is BETA
This from the man who apologized and cried over his “white privilege”?
SQUISHFEST
CRU is woke…
His comments on abolitionism were disgraceful.
So the Law of God is "The Zombie"? Got it...
That’s not what he said…
@@graceb710 Were you watching the same video as I?
What an embarrassment this man is. But of course, RTS never had an answer for Theonomy when Bahsnen was there, why should this man who doesn't even know who called Herod "That fox" do any better?
So disappointed in Ligon at many points.
Comments are crazy
Ligon is irrelevant these days and this bothers him, so instead of stepping up and engaging the culture, he’s attacking those who do, and even more surprising, he’s saying things that are patently unbiblical and illogical, like Jesus and John the Baptist being different in how they engaged the culture. Not only is this untrue, it doesn’t make sense. Jesus wasn’t “gentle,” in how he engaged, and he never rebuked John for having the, “Moscow Mood,” toward the culture. I’m life long PCA and I’ve decided to walk away because of this stuff.
I nodded vehemently at some points, and others I am puzzled by inflammatory remarks.
The blatant slander and demonization from him reeks of elitism and duplicity. Ligon Duncan you should repent.
This level of disrespect and lack of charity without repentance means you're either unfit for ministry (as you're demonizing brothers in Christ) or you have fallen away.
Both necessitate prayer. I hope fellow brothers in Christ have more grace towards you than you showed for others.
This is the first video of yours I’ve come across. I love this interview and everything your channel is about. You are serving a much needed niche in the Reformed Evangelical world!
Thank you, brother. It's a niche ministry for sure. We pray it bears much fruit.
Lol, what a joke
@@jesusrocks256
Sean, I’m sure you’ve seen a lot of the comments calling for repentance or even to have Pastor Doug Wilson or another representative from Moscow on to hear their perspective.
Proverbs 18:17 (NASB95): 17 The first to plead his case seems right,
Until another comes and examines him.
It seems the biblical thing to do would be to extend that invitation and possibly invite both parties onto your show to have a true conversation as brothers in Christ.
I’m posting this in hopes that you take it as a loving encouragement from a brother in Christ to do the right thing.
I’ve seen clips and responses but now am taking the time to watch the interview for myself so as to understand Dr. Duncan’s statements in context.
Thanks for your time.
@@UnlimitedMercy Thanks for your cordial comment, friend. Stay tuned. ;)
@@jesusrocks256
To be clear, I am on the Theonomic Postmil side of this one. My hope is to show that brothers can differ and still show respect to one another during theological discussions.
Brilliant, wise, timely, humble. Thank you. 💛
Idiotic
Talking about the abortion abolition movement like Lig Duncan does, as an historian (!), is shameful.
Always admired Ligon Duncan. Poignant words he shares from the late Tim Keller: “don’t think you have time”. RIP Tim 🙏🏾
Duncan and Keller are/were two of the most compromised and cowardly "Christians" of this era. What a sad choice for heroes.
Disappointed with these men.
What an embarrassment this podcast is.... I would be ashamed Mr Demars
Lig is a choice gift of the Lord to the Church.
Maybe, but sure isn’t from what I’m seeing here. This gift is from another place
You are blind