Every time I come across another response to Ligon Duncan I'm tempted to skip it because I've listened to all so far but I'm learning more with each one. Such principles men. Paul said there must be divisions among the church so that those who are approved may be recognized (1Cor 11:19). That is what is happening here!
This was awesome! Great conversation. I enjoy how gracious you both were to those you may disagree with. Keep being faithful and thank you again for your encouragement!
Rosaria Butterfield was on the podcast and she called out (in a kind and loving way) Demars for the name of his podcast too. As a former college English professor, she gave him some good feedback. Great interview Pastors. Thank you!
Great interview... Glad I stuck through the whole thing. Love the honesty and vulnerability of the host and of Joe Rigney.......Never heard Joe Rigney talk for this long. Really appreciate how Joe Rigney spoke so respectfully and well of John Piper. Maybe the best discussion of this whole Ligon Duncan thing I've seen (maybe other than Doug Wilson's response article/video). Really good and interesting and enlightening. This interview pretty much tied the bow on this whole Ligon Duncan thing for me... I feel like I'm pretty much up to speed on the situation and can move on!
Something I appreciate about the Moscow crew is that when they see an issue, they name names and show receipts. This isn't a matter of feeding my deep-seated desire for controversy; it gives me a chance to evaluate the claims myself. Duncan, at least in this interview, is exactly the opposite, just like most of the rest of Big Eva (with the notable exception of KDY's otherwise-abysmal piece). And thus he gets to lob his grenades indiscriminately while maintaining plausible deniability--"oh no, Joe, I didn't mean *you."* And I as a listener of his have to either believe him on faith, or not. And my willingness to believe him on faith is, shall we say, lessened, when he makes face-plantingly false statements of fact, like that the abolition movement just began after the _Dobbs_ decision, or that Chinese Christians don't have any concept that their government is subject to the lordship of Jesus Christ (as Wang Yi rots in prison for preaching exactly that thing). Oh, and that "they" wouldn't last three seconds in a room with someome (whom he never bothers to name), but then he declines the invitation to visit.
@@RecalledtoLife lol, the idea is that our fundamental identity is a Christian. We are born Americans or w/e nationality, we are born with a given last name, but the most fundamental thing about us is chosen by us, not given to us. If our most basic identity is chosen and not given (this includes our nature) then reasoning down we can choose any identity and our nature then means nothing but what we will it to be.
@@RecalledtoLife ok if you say so but, reasoning down is how the higher things, the first principles, are worked out in daily life. That's how the church shapes culture. Like how the misguided view of subordinationism works itself out in to a totalitarian view of the state.
@@RecalledtoLife so a more direct answer to your question is that identity is chosen and our nature is a product of our will as opposed to both being given to us by God. I don't know how I can make that clearer, but I can try if you have a specific question about what I said.
Everyone leading during these fraught days would do well to remember 2Cor 5:10. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."
Some use Nuance to Blur lines, often when things are simple and straight forward. Some use Nuance to draw lines (of clarity) when things are complex. I appreciated Joey’s critique of the word nuance. Clarity is a much better term.
At 19:50, I think of what you described in terms of a guild, with the older eatablished members playing gatekeeper. Junior aspiring folks need to fit a pattern before they’ll be let in.
O.K. Moore's exam question/"thought experiment" was very creepy. Doug's "Ride, Sally, Ride" is creepiness on steroids. All that "big boy" business. I'm just glad the movie never got made.
37:39 When Rod Dreher was trashing Moscow on-line I lost a lot of respect for him. I may be a little naive, but I believe in a big-tent Christianity and even though I don't fall into any theological camp with Pastor Wilson in Idaho, I find the whole reaction to him to be disgusting. It helps identify the Christians who will never fight for the faith if it puts them at odds with the culture. They take cheap shots at Moscow primarily to signal that they aren't the bad sort of Christian to people they want to stay in good graces with. I'm ex-Calvinist, was never presbyterian. I don't share Doug's eschatology, although I hold my eschatological views very loosely, and there are very limited eschatological views that I would close-handedly reject. But Doug gives a robust defense of Mere Christianity against clown world, and I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with any Christ follower who is willing to do that. I liked Rod Dreher's 'Live not by lies' book and I thought that was an indication that he was starting to understand the times we live in. Now I think he's a totally broken man, and he looks to be more of a cautionary tale of what to avoid. I don't relish his destruction. It scares the heck out of me to be honest. That wreckage could easily be me.
Yeah to say someone can’t disciple their cat, that’s mocking 😂 and the fetal position thing. He clearly is ok with it, as long as he’s not the one it’s pointed at
I don't disagree that Ligon was using caricature and mockery. I don't disagree Moscow does it too. I despise its use inside the Body of Christ whenever I see it. Rules for Radicals has no place in the Body of Christ. Increasing factionalism is borderline heretical. Biting and Devouring fellow believers is reprehensible. One day, we will all have to stand before Our Lord and answer for how we treated His Bride. I think we all would be better served by cherishing it as much as He does.
Amen. I don't understand why these podcasters spend the majority of their time blasting away at their brothers. (I don't think I have ever seen a reform podcaster warn of the growing dangers of Islam in America.)
I don't get what all the hullabaloo is about. All the reform pod-jockeys have been indignantly sputtering into their Moscow approved scotch for days now. (I have seen the word "gay" and "effeminate" constantly lobbed at Duncan by the Wilson acolytes). It's weird.
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I think one way Moscow and Apología can go a long way in helping others get into the "mood" is by not wearing baseball caps backwards indoors!! 😊
This was an edifying conversation. Thank you!
Every time I come across another response to Ligon Duncan I'm tempted to skip it because I've listened to all so far but I'm learning more with each one. Such principles men. Paul said there must be divisions among the church so that those who are approved may be recognized (1Cor 11:19). That is what is happening here!
This was awesome! Great conversation. I enjoy how gracious you both were to those you may disagree with. Keep being faithful and thank you again for your encouragement!
Rosaria Butterfield was on the podcast and she called out (in a kind and loving way) Demars for the name of his podcast too. As a former college English professor, she gave him some good feedback. Great interview Pastors. Thank you!
Great interview... Glad I stuck through the whole thing.
Love the honesty and vulnerability of the host and of Joe Rigney.......Never heard Joe Rigney talk for this long.
Really appreciate how Joe Rigney spoke so respectfully and well of John Piper.
Maybe the best discussion of this whole Ligon Duncan thing I've seen (maybe other than Doug Wilson's response article/video).
Really good and interesting and enlightening.
This interview pretty much tied the bow on this whole Ligon Duncan thing for me... I feel like I'm pretty much up to speed on the situation and can move on!
U guys are great. So happy to see some smart courageous MEN
Something I appreciate about the Moscow crew is that when they see an issue, they name names and show receipts. This isn't a matter of feeding my deep-seated desire for controversy; it gives me a chance to evaluate the claims myself. Duncan, at least in this interview, is exactly the opposite, just like most of the rest of Big Eva (with the notable exception of KDY's otherwise-abysmal piece). And thus he gets to lob his grenades indiscriminately while maintaining plausible deniability--"oh no, Joe, I didn't mean *you."* And I as a listener of his have to either believe him on faith, or not.
And my willingness to believe him on faith is, shall we say, lessened, when he makes face-plantingly false statements of fact, like that the abolition movement just began after the _Dobbs_ decision, or that Chinese Christians don't have any concept that their government is subject to the lordship of Jesus Christ (as Wang Yi rots in prison for preaching exactly that thing). Oh, and that "they" wouldn't last three seconds in a room with someome (whom he never bothers to name), but then he declines the invitation to visit.
Thanks Chase for saying what I’ve been thinking about these guys 54:00
Great conversation. As a Muscovite, it was refreshing to hear Rigney's gracious response to Duncan.
As a self-admitted Muscovite can you explain to me how Baptists beliefs caused transgenderism?
@@RecalledtoLife lol, the idea is that our fundamental identity is a Christian. We are born Americans or w/e nationality, we are born with a given last name, but the most fundamental thing about us is chosen by us, not given to us. If our most basic identity is chosen and not given (this includes our nature) then reasoning down we can choose any identity and our nature then means nothing but what we will it to be.
@@Christ_is_King1646 Nice try but you didn't answer the question. "Reasoning down" is a non-starter.
@@RecalledtoLife ok if you say so but, reasoning down is how the higher things, the first principles, are worked out in daily life. That's how the church shapes culture. Like how the misguided view of subordinationism works itself out in to a totalitarian view of the state.
@@RecalledtoLife so a more direct answer to your question is that identity is chosen and our nature is a product of our will as opposed to both being given to us by God. I don't know how I can make that clearer, but I can try if you have a specific question about what I said.
Everyone leading during these fraught days would do well to remember 2Cor 5:10. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."
In my opinion, Duncan is in spiritual declension and that's why he's responding this way. If he were spiritually healthy, he would display grace.
I think people are being way too “kid gloves” with Duncan
Ha, Ha, AD has a SIX part series on Duncan. Every Reform podcaster has weighed in on this. Ad nauseum.
@@RecalledtoLife i know, I’ve seen most of them. Ad as usual getting closest to the weight of it
Incredible conversation with 2 Godly and faithful brothers!
Some use Nuance to Blur lines, often when things are simple and straight forward. Some use Nuance to draw lines (of clarity) when things are complex. I appreciated Joey’s critique of the word nuance. Clarity is a much better term.
At 19:50, I think of what you described in terms of a guild, with the older eatablished members playing gatekeeper. Junior aspiring folks need to fit a pattern before they’ll be let in.
fantastic brothers.
Could you do a podcast on how the Cross Politic guys "nuanced" the interview with Klaven? It was a big Wiff.
Thanks, brother - this is very good. Keep going!
Great idea to make interesting podcasts much shorter and more pithy - outlaw the use of "like" and "you know"...
Like, you know?!?
And "super"
Despite Rigney’s association with John Piper, I’m beginning to have a deep appreciation for him.
This was fantastic!!
O.K. Moore's exam question/"thought experiment" was very creepy. Doug's "Ride, Sally, Ride" is creepiness on steroids. All that "big boy" business. I'm just glad the movie never got made.
I guess I should give you credit that unlike Moore and Duncan and DeYoung you're more than happy to engage in these conversations...
37:39 When Rod Dreher was trashing Moscow on-line I lost a lot of respect for him. I may be a little naive, but I believe in a big-tent Christianity and even though I don't fall into any theological camp with Pastor Wilson in Idaho, I find the whole reaction to him to be disgusting. It helps identify the Christians who will never fight for the faith if it puts them at odds with the culture. They take cheap shots at Moscow primarily to signal that they aren't the bad sort of Christian to people they want to stay in good graces with. I'm ex-Calvinist, was never presbyterian. I don't share Doug's eschatology, although I hold my eschatological views very loosely, and there are very limited eschatological views that I would close-handedly reject. But Doug gives a robust defense of Mere Christianity against clown world, and I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with any Christ follower who is willing to do that. I liked Rod Dreher's 'Live not by lies' book and I thought that was an indication that he was starting to understand the times we live in. Now I think he's a totally broken man, and he looks to be more of a cautionary tale of what to avoid. I don't relish his destruction. It scares the heck out of me to be honest. That wreckage could easily be me.
Rod Dreher speaks of being beaten up in school while the teachers laughed, and made money on the anti-Trump circuit. Dude is no bueno.
Yeah to say someone can’t disciple their cat, that’s mocking 😂 and the fetal position thing. He clearly is ok with it, as long as he’s not the one it’s pointed at
Oh, come on guys. Doug and his buddies have said a lot worse. Who cares.
@@RecalledtoLife it’s not wrong, it’s just the hypocrisy of saying mockery is bad and then do it 5 min later
@@hammerbarca6 Well, let's all cry in our beer.
I don't disagree that Ligon was using caricature and mockery. I don't disagree Moscow does it too.
I despise its use inside the Body of Christ whenever I see it. Rules for Radicals has no place in the Body of Christ. Increasing factionalism is borderline heretical. Biting and Devouring fellow believers is reprehensible.
One day, we will all have to stand before Our Lord and answer for how we treated His Bride. I think we all would be better served by cherishing it as much as He does.
Out of curiosity, did you listen to the interview?
Amen. I don't understand why these podcasters spend the majority of their time blasting away at their brothers. (I don't think I have ever seen a reform podcaster warn of the growing dangers of Islam in America.)
Showed this to my sister. Her comment was, "Cry-Babies." She also wants to know, "Do y'all have cats and have you ever tried to discipline them?"
I don't get what all the hullabaloo is about. All the reform pod-jockeys have been indignantly sputtering into their Moscow approved scotch for days now. (I have seen the word "gay" and "effeminate" constantly lobbed at Duncan by the Wilson acolytes). It's weird.