Can a Flat-Tread Motorcycle Turn? How Motorbikes Steer
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- Опубликовано: 4 май 2024
- Sign up for a Superbike School near you: bit.ly/SuperbikeSchoolSchedule
If you ride, your brain knows how motorcycles work intuitively, but we bet you'll struggle to explain it accurately. We're trading opinions for science in a pursuit to understand how motorcycles really steer.
Links :
Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist Book & DVD : frt9.co/906bn4
Biltwell Bonanza Open-Face Helmet : frt9.co/kekeqb
F9 CBC 3D Printing Template : frt9.co/b42goy
Pirelli Diablo Rosso IV Tires : frt9.co/41odyq
Dunlop Mutant Tires : frt9.co/blvx3m
Avon Cobra Tires : frt9.co/gxh57t
Connect with us:
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/ fortninecanada
Directed and Edited by Aneesh Shivanekar 
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The "draw it explicitly" joke fucking killed me
I was eating my dinner and nearly died. I'm still laughing now.
I immediately started laughing.
Wait I don't get the joke.
Legitimately one of the best jokes i've ever seen.
Где русский перевод 🤝
I appreciate the massive effort of fitting "wheel barrow" wheels on a motorcycle, losing brakes and chain drive to prove a point. Well done. 🙏
You can get a similar demo if you're too cheap to change your front tire and it gets triangle-shaped. Handling will suddenly change in an unsettling way once the bike rolls onto the un-round part of the tire. It feels like you're sliding and gonna crash, but you can sort of get used to it. I don't recommend it though.
@@jamesrindley6215 My friend had a bike that he had driving back several thousand miles on the freeway back from where he used to live and warned me the old tires were a bit square. It was a so unlike riding motorcycle and a huge understatement. I also don't recommend it.
@@NONO-hz4vosame channel has a video on mounting a car tyre to a motorcycle. Check it out, it's similar to a worn, squared off motorcycle tyre
Finally somebody explained it properly. You just countersteer at all time. Period. Thats beautiful.
Not really. There are already proper explanations. Search for "bike veritasium"..
Yeah, I don’t think you get it. He should’ve also said that when you iniciate the turn with counter steer and enter the corner you MUST let the steering go it’s way. If you still countersteer mid corner you will loose the front
Countersteering causes front tire to “track out”, causing the CG of the bike to become out of alignment with the plane of the motorcycle or bicycle. But because you are at speed, the leaning is offset by centrifugal force. In essence, turning a bike or motorcycle is a controlled fall without actually falling. 👍🏼
@@FilosophicalPharmer And this is the same underlying principle of all newtonian dynamics. From orbital injection to motorcycle cornering, all you have to do is balance the forces at play.
@@dustinbrueggemann1875 Amen, Bro! Reminds me of NASA checking in with some astronauts on the way to the moon. “Nothing much happening up here. We’re letting Sir Isaac Newton do the flying….” 😂👍🏼
So many videos of talking-heads just say this stuff to you. But FortNine consistently takes the time and effort to film clear and convincing examples. Excellent work once again!
The over the top acronym of "captive bar control", the 30k vs free lesson and that explicit drawing, this was episode was really densely packed with great humor.
And this comment having 69 likes at the moment of writing this reply is like the icing on the cake
I definitely got someone's 30 grand worth.
not really over the top with the cbc comment, only true.
what does that mean?
@@Francois_Dupont only Canadians can truly appreciate the CBC joke.
OMG Aneesh is back for cameo? Thank you, Ryan!
And to us all: I taught my daughter on a cheap Chinese 2-stroker in that exact method. Leaning is always countered because physic sucks, and use all of the tire's tread as you've paid for. Don't forget to apply a little trail braking along the corner if you're scared, and once it's second nature to ease your cornering.
Broke my knees and almost my left wrist for that life-long lesson.
Much more than a cameo! ~RF9
Back as producer @@FortNine? That sounds like the return of Thobbe Englund as the guitarist of Sabaton.
there are people who have good camera skills and not! these are good
"Cheap Chinese two stroker" hey! I resemble that remark 😢
Thanks, bud. good tip
I've seen sooo many overly complicated explanations of motorcycle steering on RUclips and they still get it wrong. Thank you for this simple and straightforward and CORRECT explanation!
It's amazing to show a new rider the "Twist of the Wrist 2" DVD and see the improvement within a week. It's also quite interesting to show it to an old rider and see him continue to do everything the same as ever. I can't believe my dad survived from 1968 until ~4 years ago when I finally convinced him to use the front brake.
I never use front brake while rolling, except in emergency stop.
@@caty863What exactly do you mean by rolling.
There are people who dont use the front brake?
@@caty863Why? Dont you think that you can use it better in the emergency stop if you use it regularly?
@@banaana1234 That's kinda what I was thinking as well. If you're not used to using the front brake, and you get into a situation where you have to emergency brake... you'll probably just grab a fistful of brake and instantly trigger your ABS, which increases your brake distance. And if your bike doesn't have ABS your front wheel will lock and slide. That's because you don't have the muscle memory of how to brake correctly. Even when you have to brake as hard as possible, instantly applying full brake power is not correct, you have to apply less force at first and then quickly increase.
The quality of this video is insane. I lost it on the “Oh Marquez is down” reference.
That was perfect indeed
Same reaction 😂
x2 on my favorite joke of the video.
6:24 😂
Aneesh? Is that the man with the legendary editing skills? If it is then thank you Aneesh, you are amazingly talented.
He cameos in like 1 in 20 of F9's videos, but yeah, he's the editor, and he's the man.
As soon as I started watching this video, I said to myself this is exactly what Keith Code and California superbike school and the video they made Twist of the wrist 2 covered.....and behold 4 minutes in and I get that answer!!!!! Love the no B.S bike demo. IYKYK. Well done Ryan reiterated and demonstrating the principals again and some time later that more people can learn these facts.
Same, I have the DVD and all his books.
Good video!! Counter steering is the only way to steer at any speed (on any bike)...yes, even during my low speed MotoJitsu drills.
30 years ago I read Keith Code’s book, “A Twist of the Wrist” and put it into practice. I’d ridden dirt bikes and enduros all my life but had just purchased my first sport bike and wanted to be a better rider, get the most out of the bike and to survive on the street. It’s not just hyperbole to say Keith Code changed my life.
I still recommend his film when anyone asks me how to get better
@@yeeee7145I think the book is better - it sticks better and you can re-reference parts at will.
A Twist of the Wrist is responsible for me not dying on my street bike, I’m 100% convinced of it
@@allanmoger1838 agree, but getting someone to read a book is alot harder than a film
I read that same book and I'm positive it's kept me safe for the last ten years.
Fortnine, Canada's motorcycling gift that keeps on giving, in a good way!
I went road racing in the late 90s. I read Keith Codes Twist of the wrist II in between seasons and knocked 8 seconds off my lap time at the start of season two. To consciously think about counter steering opened up a whole new world in performance motorcycle riding! Thank you Keith & Ryan for for driving the points home.
Learned "Lean does not equal turn" when I first started riding in 1964 on a "52 FL with no front fender. In order to see when riding in the rain I would hook the seat in the back of my knee with the bike leaned over and me pretty much vertical so the rooster tail would be off to the side so I cold see where I was going.
Always look forward to your videos.
Heck, I learned the same lesson as a kid learning to ride my bike. I'd screw around on it all the time and one trick I used to do was lean the bike down WAY over on one side while I coasted down the street.
Bandana tied around the forks, slid down so the triangle drags the tire. Just a trick I'm putting in the comments here for anyone who doesn't know.
I finally got comfortable on my bike, in no short part to the wonderful knowledge that F9 has provided. Thank you and the entire team for making the moto world better.
I had my first taste of motorcycles in the 60’s, got licensed in the 70’s went road racing in 80’s hung up my race leathers in 2013.
Fortnine has absolutely nailed it with this terrific explainer video.
How do you manage to be so informative yet so entertaining? I don't even own a motorcycle yet I find myself getting excited when you guys upload a new video. Amazing, keep it up!
I’ve watched A lot of your videos, and I really like how you take the complicated and make it understandable to the masses. I’ve learned a ton from your videos. Keep up the great work. 55+ years riding and still learning.
Short and sweet, move the bars to make the motorcycle fall in the direction you wanna go😂 you could even put that on a T-shirt…
As usual, your videos are fun and entertaining 👍
6:23 "Whoa Márquez he's gone again " 🤣🤣
Man, I just love your videos. Even though I understood 85% of this already, it's the simple delivery of somewhat complex information that most people don't understand, with a hint of intelligent humour. It's just perfect. Well done.
Hi Ryan. Great video. I attended Level 1 of California Superbike school at Eastern Creek Raceway in Sydney about 15 yrs ago after writing off a Honda CBR600. Improved my riding greatly. Keep up the great work. 🇭🇲
The CBC bit is classic Canadian esoterica. ‘Occupies the left’ 😂
Ah, I see..... I wondered about that.....
@@mickwall8 When I was a kid they gave us The Beachcombers at 4pm. When my sister was a teen it was Degrassi Junior High. When I was at uni CTV intervened with the adventures of Constable Benton Fraser.
But, I still dream about living on the coast, driving a tugboat and collecting enormous logs, big enough to mast tall shipts.
But only if you start by counter steer right!
omg lol
@@brycefisher9487 the irony runs deep
The steering is also noticeably different on a brand new pair of tires versus worn ones, presumably because of the difference in cone shape. I had to double check that my mechanic had installed the correct ones last summer. I was buying the same thing, but they felt so different from the old set !
We bought my SOs bike with a flat middle rear tire. I mean literally 3-4 inches wide of nearly flat tire. They only rode it on the highway so I guess it just never saw any action. It was odd having the bike "lift" up on lean initiation. Once we got the new one on, it felt like somebody took the training wheels off haha. Before, you almost had to force it on the side of the tire.
Counter-steering initiates turns, but _in_ the turn you 'normal' steer - as shown repeatedly in this video. That may be where some people's confusion arises, not distinguishing 'turning' (i.e. the whole process of changing direction) from 'initiating a turn'.
Great video!
Love the "explicitly" laid out diagram.
I knew this information, but it was still fun to watch.
Keep the great content coming, I'm a huge fan
The CBC gag is a priceless jab, perfect Canadian content.
ooohhh..now I see it.
Anyone with a EU MC license has probably been through this exercise during their course:
1. Grab a MC with a sidecar.
2. Get the sidecar in the air (so you're on 2 and not 3 wheels)
3. Crank the gas, and notice how you're still going straight despite the MC being leaned over
Oh, and you can still do turns leaned over.
You rode with a sidecar for your license!? That's cool. I've done 3 bike licenses here in the Netherlands and none of them had sidecar
@@luuk341 Yup, it was on a closed course for 2 hours towards the end of the course. It's apparently so MC with a sidecar isn't a seperate category on the license, and they can say they taught us.
Which country? EU license doesn't require any sidecart exercise and you don't need a license to ride with sidecart motorbike.
After loving this channel and getting me into motorcycles YEARS AGO. YOU HAVENT AGED. This video gave me an entirely new perspective on handling and makes me feel the trust in the tire even more!
Absolutely love the Keith code school (and ultra cool beard stripe) mention. I’ve learned so much from attending his school. Also enjoyed watching hundreds of his students learn whole corner working for the school. He’s a true teacher.
Hi Ryan! I love your brilliant mind and presentation style. I don’t have much…any…interest in motorcycles generally, but I really love watching you as a host and I really love when you talk about the science as well as the way you present it. (The goretex video was supreme!!) And I wanted to say that I would really love if you branched out more. I feel like the top gear style of presentation you have perfected and improved upon is so well suited for a more diverse range of topics than just motor vehicles. So here’s hoping that the future will include many videos that have little or absolutely nothing to do with motorcycles. Maybe even just a second channel about products, science, and the ways in which capitalism fools us all into buying things that are not all they claim to be.
I had to add a few more comments. The tire (or as I like to call them truncated variable slant bicone)/ cone discussion is great and once you start to think of tires this way you begin to understand the intricacies of tire design. However, the discussion of counter steer is still weak. To truly understand the countersteer/lean duality, hold a rapidly spinning bicycle wheel with one side of the axle in each hand. Try to turn the wheel about the Y axis as if making a slow turn to the right. It will lean so hard to the left that it could rip out of your hands if it is spinning fast enough. Now try to lean the wheel to the left. It will turn to the right duplicating the motion you made previously. The lean and the twist are powerfully linked by the gyroscopic effect. When you try to accelerate the wheel around the Y axis you are acting against the huge momentum of the spinning wheel which creates a large slanting force. If you try to lean the wheel while preventing the twist, you will have a very hard time indeed. That is why you can turn a bike by leaning if you are riding no hands. When we turn by leaning we either instinctively do not prevent the twist or do not have the means to (hands free). We counter steer in unison with the lean because we have to. If you try to lean steer while tighly holding the handle bars, your grip is fighting your lean. So does it make a difference if you think you are initiating a turn by leaning or counter steering? I say it does. To shift your center of gravity is a big and slow motion which requires you to shift your body weight. Counter steering is short and fast and it uses the rotational momentum of the front wheel to lean both you and the bike with great force. For every day steering the difference is not important but for many rapid changes in direction and/or high acceleration turns, countersteering is faster, more easily controlled and ultimately less tiring because it generally takes less energy to apply a turn initiating force in your arms than it does to shift your weight. Love to see a video with you turning a spinning bicycle wheel in your hands.
I really like how Fortnine videos are so concise and to-the-point.
You're videos are getting even better. Cheers from the Pacific West Coast of Canada.
I've been riding a motorcycles for almost 15 years and I feel like there's still stuff I can learn from you I hope you keep making videos for a long time
Nice to see Aneesh back. Ryan and him are an amazing team and the videos they've made together really made this channel what it is.
Best bike channel on RUclips, hands down!
Awesome video to help clear up steering , thanks again.
These videos are always so well shot
Yes! Fresh F9!
Hoping for a new one to go back on their 285 crossplane video, given it was mostly wrong
Wow Aneesh is back?
thought the filming style seemed back to normal
Exactly my thought! When he left, the cinematography on the channel dropped drastically. I hope this means a return to more beautiful videos of Ryan reviewing bikes in the wilderness.
@@gdijkema yeah no offence to the new camera person but it's just not what we grew to love the channel for
Sounds promising:
Creative Production Manager
FortNine
Permanent Part-time
Jan 2024 - Present
@@gdijkema I wouldn't say it dropped drastically, it's just different. And there are more 360 video since they got the sponsorships
I attended California Superbike School @ Virginia International Raceway in 2019, it was amazing- the coaches really know their stuff and you see improvements in your riding after every lesson. It’s expensive, but worth it!
Thanks for the great explanation!
THIS is what I come to this channel for. GENIUS ❤️
Another excellent video as always. Yet again I learned something I didn't know that I didn't know. 😁
Thank you for answering the questions I would never think to ask.
i recently started watching your videos and i dont even ride motorcycles. So beutifully made videos. Captivating, educational, funny. Very quickly becoming one of my favourite channels
You're back ❤
The quality of your videos is just insane.
The jazz track is underrated..
Great Work Aneesh. Your creative input is bringing this channel back to how great it was.
Perfect explanations!
Will the monster chopper steer?
I sure hope so! Looking forward to the video where you give them some more shape. Been trying to figure out how you'll do that.
depends how well you trim those beastly tires into a con shape, can't wait to see it run!
@@californiaholtzthis ^^^^ if just like in the flat tread explanation, if its flat then no steer. gotta finally trim them puppies down !!!
Aneesh is back 👍🏻
I only have limited mobile data to browse the web, but fortnine videos i stream in the highest resolution.
I never regret it.
Thank you RyanF9
awesome content! always wondered the science behind it all.
Possibly the best video ever on moto steering. I have been trying to explain the cone of a tire to other riders for years (even included a comment to you a while back). So many people are confused. They need to watch this video. Well done. Next time I am in town I am going to buy something frivolous from you just because of this video. I am on a techno euphoria.
Simon Crafar does a pretty good job of it as well
@@edwardtupper6374 Thanks. I picked one Crafar video at random on inertia and gyroscopic effect and sadly he was wearing a face mask that kept slipping off his nose, while filming alone, outside. . No matter how experienced he might be, my opinion of him was forever tarnished. I will give him one more chance.
Damn you, physics! Stop making sense of what my brain was hard-wired to do since I first threw a leg over a machine some 55 years ago! But just for fun, try pushing forward on your left handlebar as you roll along (at speed) and witness the immediate effect of counter-steer... Thanks for yet another great installment F9 & Team!
Yes. Which is why putting weight on the inside handlebar of a turn WILL actually make the bike turn. It's pushing the steering not offsetting weight from the center. Unfortunately Ryan equated that with "weighting the bike" and said it wouldn't make it turn. He also left off the part about the geometry of the steering and forks being the thing that is always trying to right the bike (it's not just rotational inertial, you can see this effect in a riderless bicycle going walking pace) which is why a constant pressure is required. Ease that pressure off the inside handlebar mid corner and the bike will want to stand back up.
You just changed my whole perception of what I was doing to negotiate a slow turn on my bike, thanks for setting the record straight for turns.
I love this. Your content is awesome. Instant-subscribe. First video I've seen. The absolute mechanic-type mindset that you portray and the no-BS attitude you give off.. Pure awesome. Big like.
FWIW, all balancing modes of transport use countersteering to initiate a turn. Skiing, snowboarding, running, etc require that you outtrack to initiate a quick turn. Anyone who's ever been running and got trapped on the edge of the sidewalk or a curb unable to turn away without putting their foot in the grass or on the street will understand this one. We even do it at walking speed, but it's less obvious because our feet are naturally a little bit to one side or the other of our CG, so an outtrack to the right just means putting your right foot down not exactly under your CG, causing you to lean to the left slightly to start a left turn. For skiing and snowboarding it's a little tricky to outtrack while going perfectly straight, which is why we tend to carve out large continuous turns with the skis or board just flat enough to cause a little bit of side slip. If we're in a large radius left turn, we initiate an outtrack further to the left, by setting the edge to decrease the turn radius. The board or skis go left quicker (an outtrack to the left in a slow left turn) causing our CG to cross over to the right side, and initiating a right lean, and thus the right turn. Understanding that all turning requires counter steering, really helped me learn how to ride a snowboard.
Me remembering my mogul hardman days at Taos, NM circa 1984-1992 on 197mm to 200cm skis. Yeah(BREATH), you're going to have to forget that advice and hammer your poles, imagine the fall line can only be seen by eyes on your nipples(BREATH), full extension of the human shock absorber(BREATH), weight the tips, keep turning(EAT a Knee to the face) and when all else fails. Fix it in the air and hopefully land it.
You did a good job on the basic mechanics of turning locomotion with respect to slippy cold gravity.
You have exceeded your knowledge by a fair amount. Single track vehicles countersteer. Skiing and walking/running are not that.
@@kenthartfield3237 You're entitled to your opinion but the physics is clear, and entirely testable. They're both still balancing activities. Try this easy one yourself. Establish a brisk walk right on the right edge of a sidewalk (for safety find some place with grass at same level on both sides) and then at some point try to initiate a quick 90 degree turn to the left. You may be able to make a slow turn by just shifting your upper body weight over the course of a couple steps (much like riding a bicycle without hands), but if you want to change directions quickly you'll find that you have to step off the right edge of the sidewalk (outtrack/countersteer) to do so.
Now try going straight, then zig zag at fast walk, then jog, then running pace. Notice that subconsciously (until now) you always wait until you can plant your right foot wide to initiate a hard left, and vise versa.
As for skiing. If you're going down the hill in a wide stance you may not think you're countsteering because your weight is on both skis, but consider that to initiate a left turn you have to put more weight on the right ski. You're shifting your contact point to the right below your CG, to turn left, and vise versa. But what I was talking about is the way people ski when they go fast on packed/goomed snow, feet mostly together carving big turns. If I'm carving a left turn and need to switch quickly to the right, I can either force my left foot out further left and put my weight there (still outtracking as above) *or* I can roll up onto my skis left edges which (due to their shape and our rearward position on the ski) causes the skis to turn more sharply to the left which throws my body over the skis to the right. Visually we may perceive it as the skis cutting left and right while body just goes down the fall line, but you can't make that transition quickly without countersteering. To be clear, I do ski, and I transition this way. What I do looks no differently to how anyone else skis, I just am aware of *how* I'm doing it, just like someone who knew how to ride a bike and now consciously countersteers.
You are just spouting nonsense. Nothing you described is countersteering. Both skiing and walking are analogous to a double tracked vehicle which does not countersteer to initiate a turn.
It may be that you like to turn in the wrong direction before you turn in the right direction while walking or skiing but it is neither required nor helpful to making a turn. Have you wondered why no book or video on skiing has ever mentioned countersteering? Have you ever wondered why no book or youtube video has ever discussed countersteering in the act of walking? It's because it doesn't apply.
So tell me, Is ignorance actually bliss? Inquiring minds want to know.@@daemn42
@@kenthartfield3237 My assertion is testable and falsifiable but you didn't bother to take the 5 minutes to step outside and test it yourself. Just because people don't realize they're doing something doesn't mean it's not still happening. The idea of "countersteering" didn't exist for about a century yet people were still doing it while riding bicycles first and then motorcycles every day. Then people would assert "it only applies at high speeds" and that myth persisted for almost another half century, but is easily disproven.
As for "multi track vehicles" the wiki article for countersteering points out "Free-leaning multi-track vehicles must be balanced by countersteering before turning." For skiing to not be free leaning you would have to maintain a fixed super wide stance where you don't lean your body, especially leaning inside your inside ski.
And walking is 100% a balancing activity. There's no way to walk while keeping both feet in contact with the ground all the time.
Fortnine is the only youtube channel ive seen that gets more and more professional as time goes on.
That shot at 3:55 looks so professional its insane.
I am guessing a skate board was involved.
Brilliant explanation, thanks.
Excellent video, Ryan and team. Thank you. 👍
The best information motorcycle, cycle, two wheelbarrow tire channel on RUclips and possibly the planet. Thanks Ryan and crew!
This cone explanation is also why new tyres feel like they tip into corners a lot easier than old squared off tyres.
If that's the way your tires wear. Mine get more cone shaped towards end of life especially the front. It gives the opposite effect.
You have a unique ability to make what sounds like a b.s. video into something absolutely watchable and informative.
Thank you!
Nicely produced video. You have skills most RUclipsrs would dream of having. Your delivery, choice of music and cadence are spot on...
Lol. As soon as anesh comes back the video quality skyrockets
Well done. I learned this almost 50 years ago but it's amazing how few people understand it.
Keeeeeith Coooooooooooode. Legend. Remember seeing ads for his school in magazines back in the late 80's, early 90's.
Alright, You're Back! Great Video! Yeah, I Don't Always Understand Everything You Say But I Definitely Believe You Have Motorcyclists Best Interest At Heart. Thank You.
That Mutant is an absolute miracle. Turned my run of the mill commuter NC750X into something you can actually have a lot of fun with! Also, not unimportant when riding year-round in rainy Dutch weather, it’s great in the wet!
I have never heard of „normal steering“. I actually have never heard of anything else than counter steering for any kind of speed. Maybe I am just too old and cannot remember any of the „alternative facts“. Fun to watch anyway, as always.
Yeah it's the newer gibberish online 😂
Watch any of Motorman’s Ride Like a Cop videos. Last I knew, he still taught the “magic speed” theory where you countersteer when faster than the “magic speed” and “normal” steer below the magic speed. And last I knew Total Control still taught this in their curriculum.
@@LTVoyager cornering at speed is not at all like cornering at parking lot speeds or cornering when accelerating away from a stop. I would not teach a novice that you counter-steer at ten miles/hour as you would counter-steer at 70 mph. Thought the video above was a commercial for riding school and what better way to get someone to go to school other than make people seem stupid.
@@runeveryday1069 Counter steering works EXACTLY the same at 5 MPH as at 50 and at 150. The only stupid folks are the folks who can’t understand that once taught. Those who have not yet been taught are just ignorant. Those taught and still refuse to understand are stupid.
Genuinely excellent description of the subject. Fun too.
At last, a correct explanation of the science of motorcycle steering. I've had countless debates and arguments with mainly US bikers about counter steering. Most refuse to accept that you can't steer a bike without counter steering. Here, in most European countries, counter steering is explained and practiced in preparation for driving tests. You have to prove during the test that you know how to counter steer to do an emergency sharp turn at speed.
BTW, in Finland I have often seen bikers with normal car tyres mounted on their rear wheels. I've asked how this solution fairs and was told it needs getting used to, but after that is no different to a standard motorcycle tyre.
part #3 is totally wrong and messed up. - the beginning is the pure truth though.
@@tubixtz I was only interested in #1. #2 is unimportant - I have handlebars to steer with - and I could care less about #3.
This is the first time I've heard cone shape as a major contributor to steering. Also very interesting that the trailing rake of the front axle wasn't mentioned at all. I think there may be more at play here and would love some references to follow up on
He's covered caster angle and caster displacement on his Rune video.
Minute Physics's video on why bicycles self balance is probably the best overall video.
That really taught me that the art of riding is off balancing the bike in a controlled way, and letting its dynamics do all the work to actually steer. At least over about 10 mph.
Now just add an addendum about how much turning benefits from steering INTO the turn after the bike is leaned over and this will be the perfect all-in-one video. So many people think that because you keep pushing on the bar throughout a turn that you're actually turning the bar out of the turn the whole time, but when you lean over the caster effect of the forces are necessarily pushing your front wheel back into the turn more than you're pushing the bars out of the turn.
Steering into the turn once leaned over is only to maintain the desired lean angle. If that is what you mean by “turning benefits”, then I agree 100%.
@DianaTheLance that is not correct, since the axis of the steering head falls in front of the contact patch, you have a self aligning moment given by the cross product of the combined force on the contact patch and that caster axis. The simplified moment arm is trail which comes from the caster angle you mention and the intersection of the tyre with the ground. If caster were in fact turning the tyre into the turn, then a motorcycle with no rider should instantly fall at any instability, there's plenty of examples that show that that is not the case!
@@LTVoyager What I'm saying is that you physically cannot turn left if your wheel never points left of center during your "turn". If you countersteer to the right to lean the bike over and then are able to hold the bar to the right of center the whole time, you're never going to turn to the left. You're going to keep leaning over until you hit the ground. Go put that CBC device on your bike and try to turn towards the direction the CBC device blocks off. You'll have no issue initiating the countersteering and I'll have no issue saying "I told you so" when you come back telling me that your bike hit the ground and never turned in. In the video you can clearly see that the bike never goes left while the CBC is installed. You can clearly see that the bike never starts going into the turn until the handlebars turn back into the turn.
@@dovilacus
> since the axis of the steering head falls in front of the contact patch, you have a self aligning moment
> If caster were in fact turning the tyre into the turn, then a motorcycle with no rider should instantly fall at any instability
These are contradictory statements. What do you think the self-aligning moment does when a bike starts to lean over, if not steer into the turn to straighten the bike out? I didn't mention "the caster angle," I mentioned "the caster effect," the thing that you're describing but clearly don't understand well enough to argue about.
As Ryan said, a free opinion is what you've paid for it. Go get that CBC device. If it blocks off steering to the left and I'm wrong about your bike necessarily steering left during a left-hand turn, you should have no trouble making a left-hand turn and posting video evidence of it. I look forward to seeing a nice video of you crashing your bike as it just keeps leaning and leaning until you're on the ground while the bike never points more to the left than it did before the turn.
If you don't trust your own understanding enough to put your bike on the line, here's many instances, in this video alone, that support my claim that the bike isn't turning unless the front wheel is steering into that turn.
0:58 - 1:20
1:37
1:55
2:23
2:40 - 3:00
3:55 - 4:08
6:29 - 6:45
It's probably worth noting that this is basically every instance in the video where the bike can be seen turning at all. The only clips left out are ones where there's not clear enough indication of the direction of the wheel/bars to support or refute either claim.
@@DianaTheLance First of all you're a [redacted for youtube] for the demeanor in the counter-arguing for my point aswell as @LTVoyager's
Second, those statements are not contradictory, if you didn't have self-aligning moment, you would have an unstable equilibrium point on a straight wheel, and you would have to fight the steering more and more with higher steering angles and lateral forces generated on the tyre.
However, there's some nuance, you do in fact have an unstable equilibrium, sometimes, but this will depend on the dynamic condition on the system:
E.g. there will be situations where the bike will lean more and more until it falls, some where it can reestablish it's upright position, and some where it oscillates for a while before falling to one of those points, in fact, there's a reason why you're not seeing bikes constantly riding themselves when riders fall over.
The generation of a lateral force on the tyre, is mostly contingent on there being a relative velocity vector to the direction of the tyre, along with other smaller effects. On the front tyre, an inwards force with a trail in front of the contact patch, will generate a torque that aligns the tyre with the relative velocity vector, negating it's value. That in fact, creates an instability effect that will be more aparent at higher lean angles, when the center of gravity is leaned over enough to create a significant roll axis torque that brings the bike down. However, the force on the rear tyre, which is something that is seldom talked about, is also generating a torque around the steering axis in the opposing direction, that builds a relative increase in steering angle. Two oposed effects related to the same quantity, due to the fact that motorcycles are multibody mechanisms!
"What do you think the self-aligning moment does when a bike starts to lean over, if not steer into the turn to straighten the bike out?"
This is a point I tought about and researched a bit before posting my own comment. While your statement with respect with the tyre having a turning angle is correct, although trivial, in terms of rider control, as in the input on the steering axis, you are absolutely incorrect. In fact, I suspect that after you account for the equilibrium of moments from the tyres in steady-state turning, to have a stable steering angle there should be a countersteering moment that you need to exert on the handlebar (in the direction out of the turn) to compensate for what is being generated on the back wheel minus what is generated on the front wheel. This is a model which I would very much like to see confirmed with a dynamic simulation, but I don't have that ready yet, so I can't, but it matches what I feel when I ride where I keep aplying a counter steering force all throughout the turn and yet the axis rotates a bit into the turn :)
But I "clearly don't understand well enough to argue about" right? We'll see what your rebuttal will be ;)
A very fun and well produced video that casually mentions you could still download the 3D printed file; is such a mix of fun content and science that makes this channel on a whole other level! 👏👏👏👏
Great video. This is a true service to the people, thank you.
Hi
Fun fact: when i drive my bicycle with no hands i still do counter steer
Really enjoy your videos. I find them very educational.
Excellent as always....thank you!!
Veritasium has a damn good video on this. Its similar to how people dont understand the need to countersteer for changing lanes in a car.
Still no reply to driving4answers on the 270° crank?
God bless F9! You guys always make my day when a new video comes out. Another informative and hilarious episode!
Always informative
The problem with the "normal steer" portion of the video is that he's going way too fast for the normal steer domain. It's only applicable when you're going slow enough to be putting feet down. Everything Ryan says is true, it's just not applicable unless his intended audience has never ridden a bike before.
Wow earlier than sex bots.
Thanks Ryan, I've really enjoyed watching you cover some of the motorcycle training schools. Can't wait for you to go to a Moto Trials school!
I'm a confident rider, but I'd never thought about the physics of how my bikes corner.
Today after watching this video, I have to say knowing how it works improved my handling.
Thanks Ryan!
very well put. I applaud you
Yes, Counter-Steering sets up the lean, but then the turn involves old-fashioned Car-Steering. Look carefully at videos of motorcycles
coming straight at the camera and then turning, and you'll see the 2 actions. This 2-step steering occurs with all bodies with the
center-of-mass above the control surface - bicycles, 2-track roller skates, ice skates, skate boards, surfboards, water skies, snow skies -
there is 1st a control surface input to cause a *ounter-turn* , then a "regular" control surface input to turn *toward* the intended direction.
For paragliders, where the control surface is *above* the CofG, the turn proceeds in 1-step.
Yes, counter steering is used to lean the bike over. Further steering is used to balance between gravity pulling the bike to fall toward the turn and centrifugal force trying to stand it up. I think he is fundamentally wrong with his last point.
Yes ! finally somebody said it ! The front wheel goes where the handlbar tells it.
Awesome video as always! Really great content in a fun format ;)
For people that don’t ride or have a way to feel this, grab a broom.
Balance the tip on your hand. And get you and the broom to a walking pace. You’ll quickly learn you have to move the broom backwards, then let it rip over, and then you can move forward as it tries to fall and impart enough force to keep it up.
I constantly say watching your videos has made me a more informed rider. Thank you.
Brilliant episode, as usual. 👍
I was already planning to go to the Mutant for my next tire set, nice to see some extra approval.
highly entertaining and informative at the same time - genius
Brilliant as always!