I had been preparing to invest in the Woodpeckers parallel guides + track square, but this is the video that swayed me. Seeing the TSO guides connect physically to the track square like that makes me think that system is a no-brainer for the vast majority of cases. TSO also has an incredible giant triangle you can attach to your track, which might even be more versatile for cutting at angles than the Woodpeckers track square.
Before the TSO T connector came out, I was using these on the right angle saw guides. What I found was that the extra width of the guides, you had to use a much longer saw guide if handling full sheets of plywood. TSO realized that they made some mistakes in the fasteners and made their stops and t-brackets use the same size hex key. All that said, I have found the TSO kit very easy to use and accurate. Great video.
Wow, what a brilliant, thorough and well thought out explanation of a set of products which I’ve looked at, but would never have known all the important differences if it hadn’t been for this video. Thank you 👍
I have owned the Seneca parallel guides for a few years now (before TSO had their own) and I like the simplicity of them. At first I was also frustrated with the scales moving, so I hot glued them (later changed to self adhesive ones that don't move). I realized after awhile I don't even use the scales. I premark my first cutline with a ruler (same method of setting up my festool guide rail) and then set the parallel guides to match. The idea of the guides is to make lots of similar cuts, so the scales were only being used for the initial measurement. I do like the low profile look and stop feature of the TSO though.
Just a couple of points of note on the TSO; - If you have the older GRS, you need to drill out the holes for the edge guides, drawings available on the TSO site. - Take your time to make sure the rail is square to the head, on shorter rips its not as much of an issue, but if your ripping 30"+/700mm+ you can get a trapezoidal cut. - The length indicator does give a bit of parallax (would prefer a hair line indicator) so just get a system down, and stick with it
I’ve been watching quite a few of your comparison videos (parallel guides, track saw square, and some Festool product comparisons) and l love your format. Your presentation is enjoyable to watch and you provide a LOT of information without a ton of bias. But you still offer your opinion about your preferred and why. Keep up the good work!!!
I bought the Seneca a few weeks ago and didn’t realize the incra measurement system was two pieces that slightly overlap which could lead to some issues. I wasn’t a huge fan of this and returned them for that reason. Seneca was more than happy to make the return, so hats off to them for that. I ended up going Woodpeckers, as you mentioned, one thing I like about their system is that you can customize the length of the rulers if for some reason you have limited space to work with. I don’t have a table saw so I rely on the track saw for everything, so being able to be nimble with the smaller foot print was a big reason fit me. After seeing this video I would definitely consider TSO however!
The price increase of the TSO set when this video was made (only 2 years ago) compared to now is crazy. The TPG 30-50 set was $289.95 before discount codes, now it is $369.95. Same goes for most of their products. I'm not questioning the quality, but these high price increases from companies will cause us to stop buying their products. TSO isn't the only one, just a quick observation.
@@peterfreeman3317Don’t worry, under Trump you’ll be worrying about food prices, not woodworking tools. FYI, the American economy is the BEST in the world and Trump sure wasn’t responsible for that.
Festool was the first to offer the track saw parallel guide. I bought mine when they were first offered. I wouldn't trade them for any of the 3 that you demonstrated. Thank you for your excellent video presentations, especially the one you did on undermount draw slides.
I purchased the Seneca guides at first and when they arrived I couldn't believe I paid so much for a few pieces of plastic and short t rails. The guides never stayed accurate! I purchased the woodpeckers and don't regret a thing! I do however wish that woodpeckers used there production line to do a micro adjust or a teeth system for locking into the rail. Aside from that I couldn't be happier!
The Seneca Parallel Guide system is fully CNC machined anodized aluminum; Are you sure you didn't buy a knockoff? The rails included are actually Incra T-Track Plus, so they can be easily expanded or replaced if damaged.
I bought the TSO 20, 30, 50 pretty much right after they came out 4 years ago and have never regretted the purchase. I’ve since added heads (Festool) 22:37 and extra stops for multiple set ups. I also have both rail squares and bought them with the initial purchase. I’ve used one track with a square on a 1.5 meter makita track and it works great but I agree with Brent as the rails get longer you need two tracks. Using the squares is a great option to have. It’s a very good system. I have lots of Seneca stuff and love it. Some Woodpecker tools and they’re all good quality. Personally the Seneca and Woodpeckers PG systems seem clunky to me compared to the TSO. JMHO.
@@tallpaull9367 if one is cutting primarily perpendicular to the material, go with the square, if primarily cutting parallel, go with the rails. I use both together.
Thanks for the early description of what these do. I had to watch over half of the squares video to even see what they were - but that video was good, otherwise, so thanks for both.
I have the Woodpeckers, the TSO, and the Festool parallet guide systems. For 24 inches of width or less , the festool parallel guides are the best and the easiest to get accurate and repeatable cuts.
Thanks for this comment. I have a festool track saw and WAS going to buy these TSO guides. I checked them out of saw they were $230 for the set. Then TSO says you also need the adapters for whichever track you have and that's another $60. Then TSO says, and that's the price for each adapter so you will likely want (2) one for each guide. Now we're up to $350, and I already had guide square in my cart which is already $190 bringing my total close to $600. That's bonkers.
Got my tso today had to import by myself no dealers in sweden , i like them alot , not cheap but i hope it will last for a long time. Quality is fantastic. I went for 30 tracks only enough for my needs.
As always great video Jason. I own the TSO and the woodpecker is so let me just chime in on a couple of things. One of the most frustrating things for me about TSO was their instruction manual was absolutely horrible. For example I didn’t even know there was a left or right. I bought the woodpecker’s first so I had some basic knowledge on what parallel guides were all about. Without that I think I would’ve been even more frustrated with TSO. On all of these Parallex is an issue. When you have to calibrate two different arms the possible introduction of error is huge. Granted it will be incredibly small and most people use these just to break down sheet goods so maybe it doesn’t matter. But I found parallax to be much bigger issue with the TSO. Both could be solved with positive indexing stops or ratchet type of system. But maybe that’s not feasible in the engineering. All in all they’re both very good products. You did a great job talking about the difference but I just wanted to bring up the instruction manual because I think that’s important. You are not alone in favoring the TSO. Especially when you can use it with the guide rail square which is an absolute outstanding product. I’m definitely in the minority but I THINK I’m gonna stick with the woodpecker’s. Once I set and calibrate them I leave the short arm on and I never touch them again. But I’m not 100% positive. They’re all rather finicky products. Maybe the answer is just simply buying a European sliding table saw!
I bought a European sliding saw 8 years ago and it is worth every penny. Most people look at the high price and ignore it's advantages, but if you compare it's abilities and cost to a comparable quality table saw, the sliding saw is not much more. You probably paid more for your table saw and track saw and all the other tools/ attachments necessary to make your "system" work as well as a sliding saw than what a sliding saw would cost.
I just watched your video, "How YOU Should Be Cutting Plywood," and you mentioned the TSO Parallel Guides. That brought me to THIS video! I was just about to buy the Festool Parallel Guide Rails for my Festool system. But your videos fortunately saved me! Your review is excellent, and I will be ordering the TSO's. (Unfortunately, the drop-on heads to attach the guides to the Festool rail are not currently in stock.)
Thanks Jason, very helpful. I am slowly moving to Festool from Dewalt so I am having to makes some investments in tracks and accessories. Videos like this make the process of deciding what to get so much easier and help me to avoid buying the same item twice because I did not understand some of the features. It is one thing to read the specs but quite another to see and hear them explained in detail with respect to the other options available. Great stuff as always. Cheers John
I had the festool, didn’t like them so I sold them, on festool the wood sits between the guides so you always have to move the guides to fit the wood size. I bought the woodpecker guides, blows festool away and I’m a huge festool fan lol. The woodpeckers mount on top of the wood your cutting so it’s so much easier. Extremely accurate and the fact you have all he extensions make it great. Pricey but worth every penny if you use them a lot. And I do.
Thank you for this! Exactly what I needed and wanted to know! Considering I already have the TSO square and Festool track, it's a no brainer! Not that I want to be a copycat. I appreciate you and your channel!
Great presentation! I already have a TSO rail square. Have considered adding on with the TSO parallel guides. Nothing in your video caused me to change my mind once I decide to get a set of parallel guides.
Love this video, Very helpful. But when I got out the calculator, for the same capability 2 sets of stops, out to 55 and 1 set of heads, TSO is the most expensive, by $100!
Jason, I really appreciate this and your guide rail square comparison videos. Having just gotten my first tracksaw (festool ts55) I'm in the market for both a rail square and a set of parallel guides. TSO has been knocking things out of the park with their accessories. For the rail square I decided on the festool FS-WA/90° which is the same as the TSO GRS-16PE, just festool branded obviously. So for the parallel guides I'll go with the TSO as well. The 30" set fits my needs perfectly, and I'll probably add a set of 20" rails too. Again, your comparison videos are much appreciated, especially for new tracksaw owners.
I have the TSO set. I use them with PowerTech track and a Wen track saw. I haven’t made a lot of cuts but so far I think I’m “on the right track”. Sorry couldn’t pass that one up.
Excellent rundown! I bought the Seneca, and am not a huge fan. I feel that the biggest weakness is the way the stops tighten down - they have a bit of slop such that they are perpendicular to the track … that can give you slightly different lengths if you don’t confirm that it square to the rail. Then when you consider the sliding ruler tapes, there is a lot to check when calibrating. I think I will move these on and get the TSO! I love every TSO product I own.
@@bentswoodworking I know I would, and they will be a future purchase. In the meantime I’ve taken a closer look and feel like I’ve worked out a repeatable process for setting the depth gauges. Additionally I’ve taken the advice of a commenter here and ordered the narrow Starrett adhesive tapes for the incra tracks.
I was wondering why the Woodpeckers costs way more than the other two... you get extra rails/track to allow large rips up front. Makes sense now. Great, informative video. Tx!
After I had to wait a year (to gather up funds and the need became a priority), I noted the cost of the TSO system has increased almost $150. Oh well, live and learn. I did just pull the trigger on the 30/50 set with the standard TPG adapter for my Powertec guides. I really wish they would have included the systainer case for the price, to hold the parts (I have a heavy cardboard tube to hold the rails themselves). I'll probably wind up getting the GRS-16 PE some point down the road, as it seems like a great add-on.
I have had the parallel guides in a box for months and finally took them out to see how to use them on my Festool track. I got only one TPG adapter as I had a GRS-16 PE. I wish that I had gotten two of the TPG. I forgot/ didn't think/ didn't think about it but the GRS hangs off the end of the board you are cutting parallels from. What if the sheet is not 90 degrees on the end? You would need to do what another presenter did and cut one length and one width with the GRS-16 to be absolutely square to one another. If you had two of the TPGs you could immediately cut parallel to one edge even if the ends are not 90 degrees to one side and even if the two long edges are not parallel from the woodyard. Get two TPGs. Great video explaining the pros and cons.
Glad you found it it helpful. I had the Festool ones for a very long time and they are actually my least favorite option. I didn’t include them here simply because they are pretty specific to Festool.
Been looking forward to this video for a wile and it did not disappoint. Great job detailing and explaining the differences between the systems. I wonder if they will come out with a soft carrying case for the TSO guides. Storage of any of these is something I can't believe someone has not come up with yet.
I will buy a cheap rifle case and use Kaizen foam for the guides. I work between 3 different homes (mine + 2 daughters) so have to have a good travel solution.
great timing on this video. While breaking down a sheet of plywood for a bunch of shop drawers, I was thinking about finally getting one of these. I was also thinking of you when I set up my dado stack using metric (since I was using 12ml plywood). Glad you left the affiliate links, I'm going to go by the TSO today. ETA: And then I discovered they're out of stock! bummer, but I'm not in a hurry.
@@bentswoodworking That's the impression I got from their page too. I gave them my email so I'll hear when they have material back in stock, no biggie.
So if I understand correctly if you hvae the TSO square you only really need one rail mounted to the square since the square is holding the track square?
Great video and prefect timing as I was just looking at the TSO’s solutions. Yes this style of video is great especially with your conclusions and with your personal choice.
Been looking at the TSO stuff since I went with a Kreg ACS. Thanks for the details even two years later (inflation increased the prices that you quoted, unfortunately)- FYI they have Kreg specific squares now.
Have the Seneca, they work just fine, but I use a story stick gauge to set the depth stops precisely. I also have a TSO Rail Square that is fantastic as well. May try drilling holes in the Incra rails for the TSO Rail Square.
Wow. I get inflation, but they've raised the price of the TSO parallel guide by 33% in like 18 months. That seems a bit out of control to me. You can see in the video the 30 inch set was $189 when the video was maid. Now they are charging $249 for the 30 inch system.
When I was looking the TSO product was not on my radar and Woodpeckers - dang, too expensive for me. So I went with Seneca (I have some of their Domino tools too). Then I discovered TSO and ended up with both of their guide rail squares. Then I saw a video on their parallel guides and like you my eyes got real wide with what they could do and how easy they were to use - so I bought them too. I don't use the measuring system on either - I measure on the material and set the stops from that. If they didn't have any marks on them it wouldn't slow me down.
Festool,Makita and Triton have nearly totally identical saw tracks. The only difference is the position of the plastic gliders on the track and a tiny nose in the track of the makita and may be triton track so the track saw doesn't falls of the track is high angle cuts. The makita track saw does have a small nose on the track so the saw stays safer on the track then the festoon saw. Bosch, Mafell, Metabo, Dewalt do have totally different tracks and will not fit because they don't have T nut slide on the side of the guide rail. Mafell and Metabo saws can use Makita/Festool tracks but come with their own type of tracks. Thumbs up for using metric. Best wishes from southwest Germany where you can draw an 130 miles circle and within it ther will be the headquarters of Festool,Bosch,Metabo,Fein,Hilti, Bessey, Porsche and Mercedes-Benz.
I have the Seneca for a long time but I have to be pretty motivated to use them for the same reasons you mentioned. I have the TSO square and was considering adding their guides. Thank you for doing this video, very informative and just the information I needed.
Great info, Jason~! I don't have a track saw yet, but I am considering the Festool. I've watched your using the TSO gear for a while and I'm leaning that direction if making that purchase. I have a decent collection of Woodpecker gear and yes, they're really and they're really pricey compared to comparable items. Thanks for the comparison~!
If you're making your own stuff, you just use mm instead of inches. But if you're following a design, then you just switch back. Anyone who says imperial is easier is delusional. It's factually not true. However, if you're not used to metric, it's VERY hard to see in your minds how how long or big something is. In the military, we all use metric (except for jets, which uses knots and feets the world over, odd that one) So everyone in the military (well Infantry, anyway) knows how far 5 klicks (km) is instantly.
@@hansangb I find that when doing cabinetry based on lumber that is measured imperially, it is easier to stick with imperial, especially at my age (71). However I grew up working on motorcycles that are all metric, except of course H-D engines. I prefer metric on smaller items. But I have two problems with metric. Most measurement tools including woodpeckers make it very difficult to see a between millimetre markings. I can pick my resolution with imperial measurement tools. Secondly, like you said, trying to visualize a 1236 mm long something is almost impossible for me after all these years. 12mm, I get that. So I have both sets of tools and pretty soon both complete sets of measurement tools. I prefer black markings on a yellow background for my eyes. Next would be black on gray/metal. Last is white on red. The white tends to blur into the red for me and I just can't see the divisions of milimeter clearly enough. And in cabinetry work, a couple of millimeters off and you are screwed.
Few Questions... I ended up with a used TSO because I found on Facebook Marketplace with the guide rail heads and stops for about $175 less than retail! I then added longer rails, with stops, and the one square guide. For a crosscut, would you use both TSO parallel guides with the square attached when cutting 384mm wide rips? Or would one TSO parallel guide attached to the TSO square attachment work? If you remove the rail attachment by removing the star knob screws, does the parallel guide need to be calibrated? Just ripped three sheets of 4x8 plywood for some upper cabinets and went very smooth! So glade I have the TS60 and the TSO Parallel Guides! Onto the crosscuts now. Thanks for the video, yes, like this style and it has been very helpful. Next
How are you keeping the saw cutting wth no dust. Is it the way Festool makes there track saw. What do you have it vac set up. I watch in all your videos such clean dust free cuts on your cutting table. Is it vacing through the tabe also
Nice video Jason. I have the Seneca and the WP. I much prefer the Seneca as they are very easy to get in place and cutting. The WP can be very fiddly to work with. I am also surprised by the price of the Seneca. I think I paid like $120 for the set eight or nine years ago when they first came out.
Amazing how much Markup they do on these. Especially Seneca, you can buy 2 of the exact track they use for $40. So they are adding another $240 for some 3D printed heads and stop. At least woodpeckers and TSO made their own unique designs, but those prices are always crazy. You could probably buy the TSO heads and incra track and you'd have a complete system for $120.
Timely not sure how I missed this video. I watch all of your stuff I have woodpecker and TSO and have been contemplating on getting rid of one of them. Originally I was not happy with the TSO. Their instruction manual sucks. And this is coming from a guy who had the woodpecker’s. But I played around with the TSO and I’ve really come to like them. Both suffer from the same problem however. Parallax. I really wish someone would invent a parallel guide rail system with positive indexing. Great job as always
Been watching a few...another Masterclass lesson, just sub'd. Maybe next, a video on how to remember where tools in covered drawers and cabinets are, lol. I gave up and went "open space concept".
I didn’t notice if you mentioned you can also link any length TSO rail together to make longer rails. I needed to cut a quantity of 65” panels so purchased the joiners to make 80” rails from my 30”-50” kit. Lastly, it appears even Festool is selling the TSO square rebranded to Festool in the UK.
Hi. Thanks for the onformative video. I recently purchased (on OfferUp) the Makita Track Saw system. My question: I'm looking into the TSO parallel guide system. They offer a 20" inch rail, a 30" rail, and a combo set of 30"/50" rail ($100 more than the 30" set). In my spare time, I enjoy building small furniture for family and friends (book cases, shelves, tables, etc. in my side-of-the-garage shop. In your opinion, which rail size would you recommend? Thanks again!
Richard, how did you affix the Starrett tapes? I purchased the 1/2" wide version, but could not find a good way to insert them. I found them to thick to push into the slot with adhesive backing still on, then I tried a short piece with the backing removed and the adhesive "destickyed" but sticking it to my shirt a bunch of times, but still did not work. I went back the plastic tapes that Seneca supplied and calibrated and superglued them.
@@fotopdo I did have to pull them through with needle noose pliers damaging the end but knew I would be cutting off the width of the track. Also I dabbed soap on the track to lubricate it. It was a bitch for sure.
@@RobyWanKenobi that makes sense! Thanks, I’ll see how the superglue fix holds up. I also got a new 3/4 tape for my table saw fence: I went with Imp/Metric since I build most casework / sheet stuff in Metric.
As always, Bent, your video is excellent! I purchased some of these, but think they’re a waste of $. Because, they are each manually adjusted, so you’ll probably never get the 2 units perfectly parallel. They would need BOTH to adjust simultaneously/attached to each other to be perfect. Otherwise, good luck with manual precision. IMO, You’re much better off just using your track saw and over-measure by 1/2”, then make the Final Cut on your Table saw….
I have the woodpeckers system. Took me ten minutes to swap the fittings to use one tool for setup - and that’s because my coffee was ready halfway through.
If you add two additional flipstops (90$) for the TSO, to make it a fair comparison with Woodpeckers which comes with four. Then they both come in at 479$ except with the woodpeckers you also get the sustainer. TSO is actually more expensive.
they are roughly the same. You get extra rails with TSO in the 30-50 set. drop down to just the 30 or 50 rail sets at 189 and add the stops and it's slightly cheaper than woodpeckers.
When you say TSO Festool only heads, does that translate to the Makita and Tritan too? A few months ago I bought the 10' Makita rail because it was almost $100.00 cheaper than the Festool, but also have 2, 55" Festools' that I bought with my TS75 about 17 or so years ago. And upon your recommendation, I bought the TSO square about the same time as the 10' rail, and I very much like it.
Great video. I am comparing the Woodpecker Tools and the TSO and I am finding that the pricing on the TSO is now in line with the Woodpeckers version. TSO is now 489.85 without a systainer case. Woodpecker Tools is 499.95 with the systainer case. Also pre sales inquiries for TSO products is non-existing. Meaning that TSO does not even answer questions before the sale, how could I trust them to take care of me during the 5 year warranty period. And the final debate was Woodpecker Tools = Made in USA, TSO Products guide system is Not made in the USA.
I’m just getting ready to buy some tracks for my new Dewalt track saw. I’m interested in the Dewalt tracks and interested in these products. Your thoughts on the Dewalt tracks?
TSO just came out with a guide rail square which attaches to the DeWalt track. Unfortunately, you really need two squares to get the parallel guide capability. The parallel guide covers the guide rail square, so it’s hard to see if the guide rail square is firm against the sheet without taking off the parallel guide.
TSO works with Power Tec tracks which is a Makita clone. My TSO i replaced the hex locking to knobs work great with my Makita track saw but cutting 1 3/4 doors my saw hit them 1 1/2inch might be fine but no biggy if doing 3/4 material mostly. purchasing a 2nd set of collar stops for the thin rip rods is a must only 10 bucks. This will insure both stops are locked in accurate when going back and forth. Going to revisit my Power Tech tracks they seem to match the Festool track exactly but with the anti tip feature of Makita added. Ill try the Festool quick connect. If it works id rather do that then knobs.
Completely off topic here, but I'd like to see you do an overview of Woodpeckers miter guide (stealth) system. I bought their DP pro 3624 partly because of your recommendation. With a little mod. on my part it worked out great. Thanks for that!
![Parallel Guides or Rail Square? [Video 473][**Gifted/Ad]](/img/1.gif)
I had been preparing to invest in the Woodpeckers parallel guides + track square, but this is the video that swayed me. Seeing the TSO guides connect physically to the track square like that makes me think that system is a no-brainer for the vast majority of cases. TSO also has an incredible giant triangle you can attach to your track, which might even be more versatile for cutting at angles than the Woodpeckers track square.
Before the TSO T connector came out, I was using these on the right angle saw guides. What I found was that the extra width of the guides, you had to use a much longer saw guide if handling full sheets of plywood. TSO realized that they made some mistakes in the fasteners and made their stops and t-brackets use the same size hex key. All that said, I have found the TSO kit very easy to use and accurate. Great video.
Thank you
Wow, what a brilliant, thorough and well thought out explanation of a set of products which I’ve looked at, but would never have known all the important differences if it hadn’t been for this video. Thank you 👍
You’re welcome
I looked at the tso website and it wasn't very clear how the system worked with the heads. You have cleared that up. Thank you.
You’re welcome
I've been using the TSO guides recently for rips and even crosscuts. Really solid setup. Great overview of all 3 options Jason.
Glad you enjoyed it
I have owned the Seneca parallel guides for a few years now (before TSO had their own) and I like the simplicity of them. At first I was also frustrated with the scales moving, so I hot glued them (later changed to self adhesive ones that don't move). I realized after awhile I don't even use the scales. I premark my first cutline with a ruler (same method of setting up my festool guide rail) and then set the parallel guides to match. The idea of the guides is to make lots of similar cuts, so the scales were only being used for the initial measurement. I do like the low profile look and stop feature of the TSO though.
I used my Seneca for a long time, worked great!
The Incra scales are easily attached with “Blue Tack”. A putty used by artists to temporarily mount paper to surfaces.
Nice Review, I bought last year and had to spend hours of research to come to the same conclusion you summarized in 20 minutes!
Glad you found it helpful
Just a couple of points of note on the TSO;
- If you have the older GRS, you need to drill out the holes for the edge guides, drawings available on the TSO site.
- Take your time to make sure the rail is square to the head, on shorter rips its not as much of an issue, but if your ripping 30"+/700mm+ you can get a trapezoidal cut.
- The length indicator does give a bit of parallax (would prefer a hair line indicator) so just get a system down, and stick with it
Thank you for sharing
I’ve been watching quite a few of your comparison videos (parallel guides, track saw square, and some Festool product comparisons) and l love your format. Your presentation is enjoyable to watch and you provide a LOT of information without a ton of bias. But you still offer your opinion about your preferred and why. Keep up the good work!!!
I bought the Seneca a few weeks ago and didn’t realize the incra measurement system was two pieces that slightly overlap which could lead to some issues. I wasn’t a huge fan of this and returned them for that reason. Seneca was more than happy to make the return, so hats off to them for that. I ended up going Woodpeckers, as you mentioned, one thing I like about their system is that you can customize the length of the rulers if for some reason you have limited space to work with. I don’t have a table saw so I rely on the track saw for everything, so being able to be nimble with the smaller foot print was a big reason fit me. After seeing this video I would definitely consider TSO however!
They all have their pros and cons but the TSO is the clear winner for me.
The price increase of the TSO set when this video was made (only 2 years ago) compared to now is crazy. The TPG 30-50 set was $289.95 before discount codes, now it is $369.95. Same goes for most of their products. I'm not questioning the quality, but these high price increases from companies will cause us to stop buying their products. TSO isn't the only one, just a quick observation.
Bidenomics at work!
@@peterfreeman3317Don’t worry, under Trump you’ll be worrying about food prices, not woodworking tools. FYI, the American economy is the BEST in the world and Trump sure wasn’t responsible for that.
Festool was the first to offer the track saw parallel guide. I bought mine when they were first offered. I wouldn't trade them for any of the 3 that you demonstrated.
Thank you for your excellent video presentations, especially the one you did on undermount draw slides.
Glad you find them helpful
I purchased the Seneca guides at first and when they arrived I couldn't believe I paid so much for a few pieces of plastic and short t rails. The guides never stayed accurate! I purchased the woodpeckers and don't regret a thing! I do however wish that woodpeckers used there production line to do a micro adjust or a teeth system for locking into the rail. Aside from that I couldn't be happier!
The Seneca Parallel Guide system is fully CNC machined anodized aluminum; Are you sure you didn't buy a knockoff? The rails included are actually Incra T-Track Plus, so they can be easily expanded or replaced if damaged.
I bought the TSO 20, 30, 50 pretty much right after they came out 4 years ago and have never regretted the purchase. I’ve since added heads (Festool) 22:37 and extra stops for multiple set ups. I also have both rail squares and bought them with the initial purchase. I’ve used one track with a square on a 1.5 meter makita track and it works great but I agree with Brent as the rails get longer you need two tracks. Using the squares is a great option to have. It’s a very good system. I have lots of Seneca stuff and love it. Some Woodpecker tools and they’re all good quality. Personally the Seneca and Woodpeckers PG systems seem clunky to me compared to the TSO. JMHO.
Thanx Jason! I just received my TSO parallel guide which i will use with my TSO square. You have confirmed for me that i made a good decision.
You will not be disappointed!
If you could only afford one, which would you get? TSO square or TSO Parallel Guides?
@@tallpaull9367 if one is cutting primarily perpendicular to the material, go with the square, if primarily cutting parallel, go with the rails. I use both together.
Thanks for the early description of what these do. I had to watch over half of the squares video to even see what they were - but that video was good, otherwise, so thanks for both.
Glad it was helpful!
I have the Woodpeckers, the TSO, and the Festool parallet guide systems. For 24 inches of width or less , the festool parallel guides are the best and the easiest to get accurate and repeatable cuts.
Thanks for this comment. I have a festool track saw and WAS going to buy these TSO guides. I checked them out of saw they were $230 for the set. Then TSO says you also need the adapters for whichever track you have and that's another $60. Then TSO says, and that's the price for each adapter so you will likely want (2) one for each guide. Now we're up to $350, and I already had guide square in my cart which is already $190 bringing my total close to $600. That's bonkers.
Got my tso today had to import by myself no dealers in sweden , i like them alot , not cheap but i hope it will last for a long time.
Quality is fantastic. I went for 30 tracks only enough for my needs.
You will love them!
I own a TSO square. Didn’t know that you could complement it with their parallel guides. Easy decision for me.
Excellent review.
Glad you found it helpful
As always great video Jason. I own the TSO and the woodpecker is so let me just chime in on a couple of things.
One of the most frustrating things for me about TSO was their instruction manual was absolutely horrible. For example I didn’t even know there was a left or right. I bought the woodpecker’s first so I had some basic knowledge on what parallel guides were all about. Without that I think I would’ve been even more frustrated with TSO. On all of these Parallex is an issue. When you have to calibrate two different arms the possible introduction of error is huge. Granted it will be incredibly small and most people use these just to break down sheet goods so maybe it doesn’t matter. But I found parallax to be much bigger issue with the TSO. Both could be solved with positive indexing stops or ratchet type of system. But maybe that’s not feasible in the engineering.
All in all they’re both very good products. You did a great job talking about the difference but I just wanted to bring up the instruction manual because I think that’s important. You are not alone in favoring the TSO. Especially when you can use it with the guide rail square which is an absolute outstanding product. I’m definitely in the minority but I THINK I’m gonna stick with the woodpecker’s. Once I set and calibrate them I leave the short arm on and I never touch them again. But I’m not 100% positive. They’re all rather finicky products. Maybe the answer is just simply buying a European sliding table saw!
Thank you so much for sharing that insight! 👍👍
I bought a European sliding saw 8 years ago and it is worth every penny. Most people look at the high price and ignore it's advantages, but if you compare it's abilities and cost to a comparable quality table saw, the sliding saw is not much more. You probably paid more for your table saw and track saw and all the other tools/ attachments necessary to make your "system" work as well as a sliding saw than what a sliding saw would cost.
Geese, I can’t read that. Can u use paragraph breaks next time?
Thank you for this. Useful, efficient, and importantly, honest. I appreciate that!
Glad it was helpful!
I just watched your video, "How YOU Should Be Cutting Plywood," and you mentioned the TSO Parallel Guides. That brought me to THIS video!
I was just about to buy the Festool Parallel Guide Rails for my Festool system. But your videos fortunately saved me! Your review is excellent, and I will be ordering the TSO's. (Unfortunately, the drop-on heads to attach the guides to the Festool rail are not currently in stock.)
You will be pleased with your decision. They are excellent
Thanks Jason, very helpful. I am slowly moving to Festool from Dewalt so I am having to makes some investments in tracks and accessories. Videos like this make the process of deciding what to get so much easier and help me to avoid buying the same item twice because I did not understand some of the features. It is one thing to read the specs but quite another to see and hear them explained in detail with respect to the other options available. Great stuff as always. Cheers John
Thanks John! Welcome to the addiction!
Ive been wanting one for a while but could not decide. Thanks for sharing!
I had the festool, didn’t like them so I sold them, on festool the wood sits between the guides so you always have to move the guides to fit the wood size. I bought the woodpecker guides, blows festool away and I’m a huge festool fan lol. The woodpeckers mount on top of the wood your cutting so it’s so much easier. Extremely accurate and the fact you have all he extensions make it great. Pricey but worth every penny if you use them a lot. And I do.
Yeah I had the Festool as well and they were my least favorite
Yes I agree on the festool, pain in the ass, so I saw the woodpecker and copied them in wood
Thank you for this! Exactly what I needed and wanted to know! Considering I already have the TSO square and Festool track, it's a no brainer! Not that I want to be a copycat. I appreciate you and your channel!
Glad you found it helpful
Great presentation! I already have a TSO rail square. Have considered adding on with the TSO parallel guides. Nothing in your video caused me to change my mind once I decide to get a set of parallel guides.
Glad to hear it
Definitely appreciate your reviews. I am planning to buy a tracksaw and the square and guides seem like great additions.
They definitely are!
This saved me a lot of time and money thanks for making it.
You’re welcome
Love this video, Very helpful. But when I got out the calculator, for the same capability 2 sets of stops, out to 55 and 1 set of heads, TSO is the most expensive, by $100!
This brings up the topic of Dewalt needing to offer a second Festool style of rail that will work with these products.
Excellent video! And thanks for doing it. I have been eyeing the TSO rails so this helped with my decision.
Glad to hear it
The TSO system sure did go up in price drastically since your video was filmed.
Thank you for the very useful and detailed comparative review!
You’re welcome
Jason, I really appreciate this and your guide rail square comparison videos. Having just gotten my first tracksaw (festool ts55) I'm in the market for both a rail square and a set of parallel guides. TSO has been knocking things out of the park with their accessories. For the rail square I decided on the festool FS-WA/90° which is the same as the TSO GRS-16PE, just festool branded obviously. So for the parallel guides I'll go with the TSO as well. The 30" set fits my needs perfectly, and I'll probably add a set of 20" rails too. Again, your comparison videos are much appreciated, especially for new tracksaw owners.
Glad you found it helpful
This was great. Thanks a million for showing these other examples.
Like always, going above and beyond! Thanks Jason.
You’re welcome
Jason ,
Just wanted to say thanks for all the valuable content, I am using Jay for my Nordfab dust collection design. He has been great!
Thank you this is a super video, I was just thinking about adding parallel guides and this was most helpful.
Glad you found it helpful
I have the TSO set. I use them with PowerTech track and a Wen track saw. I haven’t made a lot of cuts but so far I think I’m “on the right track”. Sorry couldn’t pass that one up.
I see what you did there 🤣
Excellent rundown! I bought the Seneca, and am not a huge fan. I feel that the biggest weakness is the way the stops tighten down - they have a bit of slop such that they are perpendicular to the track … that can give you slightly different lengths if you don’t confirm that it square to the rail. Then when you consider the sliding ruler tapes, there is a lot to check when calibrating. I think I will move these on and get the TSO! I love every TSO product I own.
You will like the TSO for sure
@@bentswoodworking I know I would, and they will be a future purchase. In the meantime I’ve taken a closer look and feel like I’ve worked out a repeatable process for setting the depth gauges. Additionally I’ve taken the advice of a commenter here and ordered the narrow Starrett adhesive tapes for the incra tracks.
I was wondering why the Woodpeckers costs way more than the other two... you get extra rails/track to allow large rips up front. Makes sense now. Great, informative video. Tx!
Glad you found it helpful
After I had to wait a year (to gather up funds and the need became a priority), I noted the cost of the TSO system has increased almost $150. Oh well, live and learn. I did just pull the trigger on the 30/50 set with the standard TPG adapter for my Powertec guides. I really wish they would have included the systainer case for the price, to hold the parts (I have a heavy cardboard tube to hold the rails themselves). I'll probably wind up getting the GRS-16 PE some point down the road, as it seems like a great add-on.
I have had the parallel guides in a box for months and finally took them out to see how to use them on my Festool track. I got only one TPG adapter as I had a GRS-16 PE. I wish that I had gotten two of the TPG. I forgot/ didn't think/ didn't think about it but the GRS hangs off the end of the board you are cutting parallels from. What if the sheet is not 90 degrees on the end? You would need to do what another presenter did and cut one length and one width with the GRS-16 to be absolutely square to one another. If you had two of the TPGs you could immediately cut parallel to one edge even if the ends are not 90 degrees to one side and even if the two long edges are not parallel from the woodyard. Get two TPGs. Great video explaining the pros and cons.
Thanks so much for this. I had been leaning towards the TSO, but already having one of the squares really sells it for me.
Glad you found it helpful
All of these are far superior to the Festool guides. i hate using mine.
Why?
Great review! I’ve been considering getting something different than the original Festool guides so this is a very timely review for me. Thanks!
Glad you found it it helpful. I had the Festool ones for a very long time and they are actually my least favorite option. I didn’t include them here simply because they are pretty specific to Festool.
Been looking forward to this video for a wile and it did not disappoint. Great job detailing and explaining the differences between the systems. I wonder if they will come out with a soft carrying case for the TSO guides. Storage of any of these is something I can't believe someone has not come up with yet.
Sorry it took so long 🤣🤣. I planned on this one a long time ago but wanted it to be right.
I will buy a cheap rifle case and use Kaizen foam for the guides. I work between 3 different homes (mine + 2 daughters) so have to have a good travel solution.
great timing on this video. While breaking down a sheet of plywood for a bunch of shop drawers, I was thinking about finally getting one of these. I was also thinking of you when I set up my dado stack using metric (since I was using 12ml plywood). Glad you left the affiliate links, I'm going to go by the TSO today. ETA: And then I discovered they're out of stock! bummer, but I'm not in a hurry.
Unfortunately that’s a realization with most companies these days. I don’t think they’re backlog is that much though
@@bentswoodworking That's the impression I got from their page too. I gave them my email so I'll hear when they have material back in stock, no biggie.
Great review! Well thought out and presented. Thanks for the ‘guide’ance.
So if I understand correctly if you hvae the TSO square you only really need one rail mounted to the square since the square is holding the track square?
Great video and prefect timing as I was just looking at the TSO’s solutions. Yes this style of video is great especially with your conclusions and with your personal choice.
Glad to hear that!
Great comparison Jason! Thanks for the feedback! 👍
Thank you and you’re welcome. Would be happy to chat more about it sometime!
Been looking at the TSO stuff since I went with a Kreg ACS. Thanks for the details even two years later (inflation increased the prices that you quoted, unfortunately)- FYI they have Kreg specific squares now.
Very helpful, but I would love to see Festool's parallel guides included in this comparison too so I can decide. Thank you!
Have the Seneca, they work just fine, but I use a story stick gauge to set the depth stops precisely. I also have a TSO Rail Square that is fantastic as well. May try drilling holes in the Incra rails for the TSO Rail Square.
Excellent info and very explanatory.Thankyou
Glad it was helpful!
Wow. I get inflation, but they've raised the price of the TSO parallel guide by 33% in like 18 months. That seems a bit out of control to me. You can see in the video the 30 inch set was $189 when the video was maid. Now they are charging $249 for the 30 inch system.
When I was looking the TSO product was not on my radar and Woodpeckers - dang, too expensive for me. So I went with Seneca (I have some of their Domino tools too).
Then I discovered TSO and ended up with both of their guide rail squares. Then I saw a video on their parallel guides and like you my eyes got real wide with what they could do and how easy they were to use - so I bought them too.
I don't use the measuring system on either - I measure on the material and set the stops from that. If they didn't have any marks on them it wouldn't slow me down.
They are all good options. TSO is definitely my favorite
Such a great quality video. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Jason, I purchased a Festool guid rail square a year or so ago and it’s made by TSO. Good video as always.
Festool,Makita and Triton have nearly totally identical saw tracks. The only difference is the position of the plastic gliders on the track and a tiny nose in the track of the makita and may be triton track so the track saw doesn't falls of the track is high angle cuts. The makita track saw does have a small nose on the track so the saw stays safer on the track then the festoon saw.
Bosch, Mafell, Metabo, Dewalt do have totally different tracks and will not fit because they don't have T nut slide on the side of the guide rail. Mafell and Metabo saws can use Makita/Festool tracks but come with their own type of tracks.
Thumbs up for using metric.
Best wishes from southwest Germany where you can draw an 130 miles circle and within it ther will be the headquarters of Festool,Bosch,Metabo,Fein,Hilti, Bessey, Porsche and Mercedes-Benz.
I lived in Baumholder for 5 years. 👍
I have the Seneca for a long time but I have to be pretty motivated to use them for the same reasons you mentioned. I have the TSO square and was considering adding their guides. Thank you for doing this video, very informative and just the information I needed.
Glad you found it helpful
Great info, Jason~! I don't have a track saw yet, but I am considering the Festool. I've watched your using the TSO gear for a while and I'm leaning that direction if making that purchase. I have a decent collection of Woodpecker gear and yes, they're really and they're really pricey compared to comparable items. Thanks for the comparison~!
Right on!
Nice cabinets on the miter saw wall
Thank you! Video on those will be out in a couple weeks
I’d love to hear more about metric vs “standard” and how you work primarily with metric while living in the US. Thanks!
I have a video discussing that
If you're making your own stuff, you just use mm instead of inches. But if you're following a design, then you just switch back. Anyone who says imperial is easier is delusional. It's factually not true. However, if you're not used to metric, it's VERY hard to see in your minds how how long or big something is. In the military, we all use metric (except for jets, which uses knots and feets the world over, odd that one) So everyone in the military (well Infantry, anyway) knows how far 5 klicks (km) is instantly.
@@hansangb I find that when doing cabinetry based on lumber that is measured imperially, it is easier to stick with imperial, especially at my age (71). However I grew up working on motorcycles that are all metric, except of course H-D engines. I prefer metric on smaller items. But I have two problems with metric. Most measurement tools including woodpeckers make it very difficult to see a between millimetre markings. I can pick my resolution with imperial measurement tools. Secondly, like you said, trying to visualize a 1236 mm long something is almost impossible for me after all these years. 12mm, I get that. So I have both sets of tools and pretty soon both complete sets of measurement tools. I prefer black markings on a yellow background for my eyes. Next would be black on gray/metal. Last is white on red. The white tends to blur into the red for me and I just can't see the divisions of milimeter clearly enough. And in cabinetry work, a couple of millimeters off and you are screwed.
Love these videos! Keep ‘‘em coming mr Bent
Few Questions... I ended up with a used TSO because I found on Facebook Marketplace with the guide rail heads and stops for about $175 less than retail! I then added longer rails, with stops, and the one square guide.
For a crosscut, would you use both TSO parallel guides with the square attached when cutting 384mm wide rips? Or would one TSO parallel guide attached to the TSO square attachment work?
If you remove the rail attachment by removing the star knob screws, does the parallel guide need to be calibrated?
Just ripped three sheets of 4x8 plywood for some upper cabinets and went very smooth! So glade I have the TS60 and the TSO Parallel Guides!
Onto the crosscuts now.
Thanks for the video, yes, like this style and it has been very helpful.
Next
TSO set 30/50 up from $290 to $370. Shipping to Australia with a guide rail square is over $200USD additional. These prices are getting ridiculous.
How are you keeping the saw cutting wth no dust. Is it the way Festool makes there track saw. What do you have it vac set up. I watch in all your videos such clean dust free cuts on your cutting table. Is it vacing through the tabe also
I use a festool extractor with it
Great video. Do you know where TSO manufactures their tools?
You are a great teacher
Thank you, I appreciate that!
Great video! I wish you would have also included the Festool parallels too. I’m trying to decide which is best for me.
Nice video Jason. I have the Seneca and the WP. I much prefer the Seneca as they are very easy to get in place and cutting. The WP can be very fiddly to work with. I am also surprised by the price of the Seneca. I think I paid like $120 for the set eight or nine years ago when they first came out.
Thanks Guy! Yeah, I was actually a little shocked when I opened up the website and say that was the price.
Have you compared the Festool to the TSO? Thanks
Amazing how much Markup they do on these. Especially Seneca, you can buy 2 of the exact track they use for $40. So they are adding another $240 for some 3D printed heads and stop. At least woodpeckers and TSO made their own unique designs, but those prices are always crazy. You could probably buy the TSO heads and incra track and you'd have a complete system for $120.
Lots of great info. I greatly appreciate it 👍🏼
👍👍
Timely not sure how I missed this video. I watch all of your stuff
I have woodpecker and TSO and have been contemplating on getting rid of one of them. Originally I was not happy with the TSO. Their instruction manual sucks. And this is coming from a guy who had the woodpecker’s. But I played around with the TSO and I’ve really come to like them. Both suffer from the same problem however. Parallax. I really wish someone would invent a parallel guide rail system with positive indexing. Great job as always
TSO made a video just on this issue on how to avoid parallax
Thank you so much for your video....now with that said, what would you purchase first? The TSO Track Saw Square OR the Parallel Guide???
The square.
Been watching a few...another Masterclass lesson, just sub'd. Maybe next, a video on how to remember where tools in covered drawers and cabinets are, lol. I gave up and went "open space concept".
Thanks for the sub!
Great video.,very nice comparison. Really enjoyed your video.
I didn’t notice if you mentioned you can also link any length TSO rail together to make longer rails. I needed to cut a quantity of 65” panels so purchased the joiners to make 80” rails from my 30”-50” kit. Lastly, it appears even Festool is selling the TSO square rebranded to Festool in the UK.
I did not but that’s a good addition as well
Ah, with three choices it often comes across as Goldilocks. Nice review and discussion of the features of all 3 systems.
Glad you found it helpful
Great review. I’m sold on TSO
Awesome! They are great
Hi. Thanks for the onformative video. I recently purchased (on OfferUp) the Makita Track Saw system.
My question: I'm looking into the TSO parallel guide system. They offer a 20" inch rail, a 30" rail, and a combo set of 30"/50" rail ($100 more than the 30" set). In my spare time, I enjoy building small furniture for family and friends (book cases, shelves, tables, etc. in my side-of-the-garage shop. In your opinion, which rail size would you recommend? Thanks again!
I use Starrett metal tapes in both my Incra t track and Incra track on my MFT table with very good results.
That’s a great tip!
Thanks! I will check that out, I don’t love the sliding tapes on incra
Richard, how did you affix the Starrett tapes? I purchased the 1/2" wide version, but could not find a good way to insert them. I found them to thick to push into the slot with adhesive backing still on, then I tried a short piece with the backing removed and the adhesive "destickyed" but sticking it to my shirt a bunch of times, but still did not work. I went back the plastic tapes that Seneca supplied and calibrated and superglued them.
@@fotopdo I did have to pull them through with needle noose pliers damaging the end but knew I would be cutting off the width of the track. Also I dabbed soap on the track to lubricate it. It was a bitch for sure.
@@RobyWanKenobi that makes sense! Thanks, I’ll see how the superglue fix holds up. I also got a new 3/4 tape for my table saw fence: I went with Imp/Metric since I build most casework / sheet stuff in Metric.
As always, Bent, your video is excellent!
I purchased some of these, but think they’re a waste of $. Because, they are each manually adjusted, so you’ll probably never get the 2 units perfectly parallel. They would need BOTH to adjust simultaneously/attached to each other to be perfect. Otherwise, good luck with manual precision. IMO, You’re much better off just using your track saw and over-measure by 1/2”, then make the Final Cut on your Table saw….
I'm looking for one comparable with milwaukee . Any recommendations?
I have the woodpeckers system. Took me ten minutes to swap the fittings to use one tool for setup - and that’s because my coffee was ready halfway through.
Yes,wish Bora has the same, sometimes my cut is off
If you add two additional flipstops (90$) for the TSO, to make it a fair comparison with Woodpeckers which comes with four. Then they both come in at 479$ except with the woodpeckers you also get the sustainer. TSO is actually more expensive.
they are roughly the same. You get extra rails with TSO in the 30-50 set. drop down to just the 30 or 50 rail sets at 189 and add the stops and it's slightly cheaper than woodpeckers.
When you say TSO Festool only heads, does that translate to the Makita and Tritan too? A few months ago I bought the 10' Makita rail because it was almost $100.00 cheaper than the Festool, but also have 2, 55" Festools' that I bought with my TS75 about 17 or so years ago. And upon your recommendation, I bought the TSO square about the same time as the 10' rail, and I very much like it.
I believe they are only for festool
Great video. I am comparing the Woodpecker Tools and the TSO and I am finding that the pricing on the TSO is now in line with the Woodpeckers version. TSO is now 489.85 without a systainer case. Woodpecker Tools is 499.95 with the systainer case. Also pre sales inquiries for TSO products is non-existing. Meaning that TSO does not even answer questions before the sale, how could I trust them to take care of me during the 5 year warranty period. And the final debate was Woodpecker Tools = Made in USA, TSO Products guide system is Not made in the USA.
Very informative video Jason. Do you have a video showing you using the TSO product with a setup explanation?
Have a good one.
Ron
I don’t but that’s a video idea I will add to my list. Thanks!
@@bentswoodworking
Thanks Jason.
Awesome video/information. Thank you!
You’re welcome
Hi, yes I do like the style of your videos. Very helpful, thanks!
I’m just getting ready to buy some tracks for my new Dewalt track saw.
I’m interested in the Dewalt tracks and interested in these products.
Your thoughts on the Dewalt tracks?
I have no experience with them personally
TSO just came out with a guide rail square which attaches to the DeWalt track. Unfortunately, you really need two squares to get the parallel guide capability. The parallel guide covers the guide rail square, so it’s hard to see if the guide rail square is firm against the sheet without taking off the parallel guide.
TSO works with Power Tec tracks which is a Makita clone. My TSO i replaced the hex locking to knobs work great with my Makita track saw but cutting 1 3/4 doors my saw hit them 1 1/2inch might be fine but no biggy if doing 3/4 material mostly. purchasing a 2nd set of collar stops for the thin rip rods is a must only 10 bucks. This will insure both stops are locked in accurate when going back and forth. Going to revisit my Power Tech tracks they seem to match the Festool track exactly but with the anti tip feature of Makita added. Ill try the Festool quick connect. If it works id rather do that then knobs.
Good to know, thanks
Completely off topic here, but I'd like to see you do an overview of Woodpeckers miter guide (stealth) system. I bought their DP pro 3624 partly because of your recommendation. With a little mod. on my part it worked out great. Thanks for that!
Very nice and interesting video. Many thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it