SMALL CORRECTION: The tooltip for the technologies is once again misleading (and the devs should change this for clarity). Fish and Huntables do not get affected by the Main three food techs, despite it mentioning in the tooltip that it affects **food gather rates** in general. Did a gut check test this morning just in case - and they don't get affected. Hence, these techs are only for Berries, Farms, and Sheep! This doesn't affect the Rule of Thumb regardless, so you should still adhere to the numbers indicated. Cheers! The long awaited food techs video is finally live - thanks for being patient as I get back closer to more regular uploads! As always, let us know in the comments below on what you'd like to be potentially explored in a future video. Thanks!
So this further reinforces that we should be going for huntables and shoreline fish in the early game, and try to save farms and sheep until as late as possible. Berries are the exception, because they're most beneficial in the early game, but they are affected by these techs which you won't have any/all of in the early game.
Hey Age of Noob, just wanted to say I really think the production value of your videos belies the insanely low number of subs you have - it'll happen my man! You post well thought out and edited videos which are interesting and engaging. Keeping them under 10 mins means you always get through the useful stuff without all the waffling verbage so many other channels succumb to in order to fill out viewing and adspace time. Keep up the great work AoN, you've got an excellent format here and I'll be watching you closely!
@@Karnigel I don’t know if you watch streamers like Turin but skilled players do something called a build order where they put their villagers in a strict order to get certain buildings out asap. I just put a ton of villagers wherever, like on gold because idk what I was doing at the time lol
its a crime to watch your videos on my phone/monitor, i always save them till i get home and watch them on my 4k tv ! waiting for more of your work man peace
@Age of Noob, Great content as always! I find myself rewatching these upgrade videos about once each season. FYI, to anyone that sees this comment it appears that since the making of this video all food upgrade costs were reduced as were some of the research times so the rules of thumb suggested may be more conservative now than at the time this video was created. Still great content but you may consider calculating your own payback times as the gathering rates have remained the same (i.e. upgrade cost / delta increase in resource per min)+Research time = Total Payback in minutes.
Awesome video! But did notice one thing, I the 'Delta' calculation for the first row is incorrect. 324- 294 = 30, not 35. (Just minor thing) but very inspiring to start doing tests whenever a patch comes out
Thank you for this and clarifying with your comment about Fishing/Huntables. I love these analysis videos and would love to see more either about certain units each other (i.e. If vsing elephants with spearmen, does having an upgrade advantage on ranged allow for spearmen to take 1 more hit?) or even a fishing/water themed video considering how many water-maps there are now! Keep up the amazing work!!
Hello Age of Noob, rewatching your video for the 2nd time, because I wanted to see how the payback time is affected by the new cost/research speed. I have taken your numbers and tried to recreate the payback minutes and I believe you made an error as you most likely took 90 sec as research time for all 3 techs instead of 75. also in the first and second table it should read 329(330) resources in the 8 vil row, otherwise the Delta would be incorrect. Although this doesn’t affect your results that much, I think you could be looking to correct this if you are making an updated video for the new cost/research time! Keep up the good work!
would love a stand alone video on Abbasid eco upgrades and golden age numbers. I know some games I can hit 2k food a min with less then 40 farmers. I believe.
Check out this amazing sheet for all the raw numbers you would like to know: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LG0We2pTFZsbFm_k1SKLix8gxSq_9n5R_Ic3G2tVzBg/edit?pli=1#gid=318195195
It’s worth noting that food upgrades not only improves the efficiency of villagers, but also improves the efficiency of farms which cost 75 wood each. A farming eco of 16 vils cost 2100 res including 16 farms and 2 mills, which means the 12% efficiency gain is horticulture gives you 252 res worth of farming investment. That’s roughly the same as the cost of horticulture. Considering eco upgrades increase income without needing to assign additional villagers, this is more efficient in terms of TC time, I’d argue that horticulture is worth getting when there’s more than 10 farmers.
I do belive the age IV eco upgrades need another factor to be considered, which is pop efficiency on 200vs200 late game situations. Let's say you need 55 vills on food to keep up military production for the constant fighting that's happening. If you had PCB, you would need only 50 vills on food. 5 more military units (or an extra siege unit) can make huge differences in the battlefield. Add that to situations where you have Crosscut Saw, and that's another 5 pop space saved. Of course, this only makes sense when resources are at least not scarce. Another situation these techs are useful is when you're trying to strip available resources from the map ASAP, which would allow you to have a late game timing attack when you finish all gold mines and can delete your vills for units. My point is that I don't think we have to ONLY think about the payback time on resources. That's a factor, for sure, but considering it's a war game, and not a economy one, there's way more to it to consider.
While yes, pop efficiency is one thing we need to consider, the ridiculous cost on those tech makes them very hard to justify sometimes. It’s one thing to get better villager. It’s another when your better villager can’t bring you enough benefit to win you the game.
@@estellebright2579 I mean that by pop efficiency what we get back is a military benefit, not an economical one. We pay hella prices for military benefits all game. This is just another nuance that shouldn't be valued by it's [lack of] ROI character.
Just posted a correction on the pinned comment and saw yours. You're partially right - as it doesn't affect fish either. Only Farms, Berries, and Sheep. :)
what if you are fighting and constantly depleting your resources. Would an extra 5% or 10% wood gather rate help to sustain the fight and be de difference between winning and losing the fight? I take lumber upgrades simply because I want to sustain a fight at a higher attrition rate and also because I want to remove as many trees from the map and from my oppenents reach. With the lumber upgrades its not just an economic choice but also a strategic choice.
The answer to that question is, as always, "it depends". That's the reason why my Rules of Thumb require low minutes for payback - so you can focus on expansion and military. The more aggressive you are, the later you should get eco upgrades in general.
Most of my previous videos were manually controlled - so I tried to move my mouse while holding alt as smoothly as humanly possible. I've begun using a mix of software and hardware since as a better solution. I programed certain keys to move the mouse a few pixels per second on either direction with no acceleration - hold that with Alt and you begin moving it smoothly. As far as the game goes, it's the mouse moving with the alt key - so nothing special game-wise.
Do you think, that france receive the benefit of the Economy Upgrades by the half of the villiger numbers, because they have the half costs? I now you didn't Test civ spesifications, but what would you espect? PS: Thank you for your grade tests !!
Half is too aggressive I think - but you can safely assume that you can get those upgrades with 2/3rds of the required vill amount. You also get to those vill numbers quicker in the first place as well - which is another time advantage for sure. :)
I would argue, now that we have a developing FFA meta and games easily go over one and a half hours in FFA, that you can justify the imperial upgrades more often. A good example is if you're one of the civs that likes to turtle up, go 5TC, make 180 workers and stockpile resources for a late game wonder defense. At that point I think a 10 minute payback is actually not the worst so you can get the upgrade real early. People in FFA take really long to die once they've established a big base.
Chinese farms work a bit different. Normal farms have a 4x3 Layout with each little plot being wirth 10 food hence wheelbarrow doesnt change a lot (since a farmer has to harvest 1.5 plots wich increases walking distance). Chinese farms have a 4x4 Layout with 7.5 food per Plot. That makes them worse compared to normal Farms . With wheelbarrow that changes and a chinese farmer can now harvest 2 plots in one trip wich makes them even better than normal Civs. SOTL made a great Video about it : ruclips.net/video/4VvsA3wVNyI/видео.html So if you play chinese wheelbarrow is an absulute must before you start farming
SMALL CORRECTION: The tooltip for the technologies is once again misleading (and the devs should change this for clarity). Fish and Huntables do not get affected by the Main three food techs, despite it mentioning in the tooltip that it affects **food gather rates** in general. Did a gut check test this morning just in case - and they don't get affected. Hence, these techs are only for Berries, Farms, and Sheep! This doesn't affect the Rule of Thumb regardless, so you should still adhere to the numbers indicated. Cheers!
The long awaited food techs video is finally live - thanks for being patient as I get back closer to more regular uploads! As always, let us know in the comments below on what you'd like to be potentially explored in a future video. Thanks!
i will respond here so yt will see how good this content is
So this further reinforces that we should be going for huntables and shoreline fish in the early game, and try to save farms and sheep until as late as possible. Berries are the exception, because they're most beneficial in the early game, but they are affected by these techs which you won't have any/all of in the early game.
Pin this comment
Hey Age of Noob, just wanted to say I really think the production value of your videos belies the insanely low number of subs you have - it'll happen my man! You post well thought out and edited videos which are interesting and engaging. Keeping them under 10 mins means you always get through the useful stuff without all the waffling verbage so many other channels succumb to in order to fill out viewing and adspace time.
Keep up the great work AoN, you've got an excellent format here and I'll be watching you closely!
Thank you, I appreciate the kind words Dynamo. :) Thanks for stopping by!
What he said! My favorite AOE4 channel by far, and there's tough competition there!
I have a bad habit of buying every upgrade the second I have enough gold
It's tough to resist the temptation sometimes :D
Buying upgrade is always better than never :)
@@AgeofNoob playing as Delhi is even harder
First question popping To my mimd, how do you have enough without Holding IT Back for Upgrades?
@@Karnigel I don’t know if you watch streamers like Turin but skilled players do something called a build order where they put their villagers in a strict order to get certain buildings out asap.
I just put a ton of villagers wherever, like on gold because idk what I was doing at the time lol
its a crime to watch your videos on my phone/monitor, i always save them till i get home and watch them on my 4k tv ! waiting for more of your work man peace
Thank you my friend! Good to see you here again.
Great meticulous analysis. Thanks
You're welcome!
Your video style is really cool. Background videos with the moving camera are relaxing and the way you blend in ui elements is very clean
Glad you liked it! :)
Age of Noob is the Spiritofthelaw for Aoe4. I hope your channel grows as much as his did!
Got this game in a sale, your videos are a big help thank you man
You're welcome - enjoy the game!
@Age of Noob, Great content as always! I find myself rewatching these upgrade videos about once each season.
FYI, to anyone that sees this comment it appears that since the making of this video all food upgrade costs were reduced as were some of the research times so the rules of thumb suggested may be more conservative now than at the time this video was created. Still great content but you may consider calculating your own payback times as the gathering rates have remained the same (i.e. upgrade cost / delta increase in resource per min)+Research time = Total Payback in minutes.
Awesome video!
But did notice one thing, I the 'Delta' calculation for the first row is incorrect.
324- 294 = 30, not 35. (Just minor thing)
but very inspiring to start doing tests whenever a patch comes out
Super useful and high quality content that gets right to the point - I smashed that like button
Thank you!
Thank you for this and clarifying with your comment about Fishing/Huntables. I love these analysis videos and would love to see more either about certain units each other (i.e. If vsing elephants with spearmen, does having an upgrade advantage on ranged allow for spearmen to take 1 more hit?) or even a fishing/water themed video considering how many water-maps there are now!
Keep up the amazing work!!
Thank you so much, love your analyses!
You're welcome!
Hello Age of Noob,
rewatching your video for the 2nd time, because I wanted to see how the payback time is affected by the new cost/research speed.
I have taken your numbers and tried to recreate the payback minutes and I believe you made an error as you most likely took 90 sec as research time for all 3 techs instead of 75.
also in the first and second table it should read 329(330) resources in the 8 vil row, otherwise the Delta would be incorrect.
Although this doesn’t affect your results that much, I think you could be looking to correct this if you are making an updated video for the new cost/research time!
Keep up the good work!
Amazing information in this video 👍🏻
Great information
I would love a video about mongol improved upgrades! Combat and eco would be great!
would love a stand alone video on Abbasid eco upgrades and golden age numbers. I know some games I can hit 2k food a min with less then 40 farmers. I believe.
I will look into Abbasid techs for sure :)
Hi, Age of Noob. Thanks for your analysis.
Would you plan to do the fishing part? Including fishing tech and speed tech.
I will look into these in a future video!
What you need to know about fishing? Do fishboom with Rus, it's insane.
I'd also argue any form of trading eco has a similar benefit of being infinite on paper at least, cause food is infinite as well as it's own gold gen.
Do you have an analysis comparing food source base gather rates for hunting, sheep, berries, farms, etc?
Check out this amazing sheet for all the raw numbers you would like to know:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LG0We2pTFZsbFm_k1SKLix8gxSq_9n5R_Ic3G2tVzBg/edit?pli=1#gid=318195195
@@AgeofNoob oh wow! Just got into Platinum Ranked so I am looking to improve my game! This will help immensely! A million thanks 🙏🏼
@@jseels Np :)
Great vid
It’s worth noting that food upgrades not only improves the efficiency of villagers, but also improves the efficiency of farms which cost 75 wood each. A farming eco of 16 vils cost 2100 res including 16 farms and 2 mills, which means the 12% efficiency gain is horticulture gives you 252 res worth of farming investment. That’s roughly the same as the cost of horticulture. Considering eco upgrades increase income without needing to assign additional villagers, this is more efficient in terms of TC time, I’d argue that horticulture is worth getting when there’s more than 10 farmers.
I do belive the age IV eco upgrades need another factor to be considered, which is pop efficiency on 200vs200 late game situations. Let's say you need 55 vills on food to keep up military production for the constant fighting that's happening. If you had PCB, you would need only 50 vills on food. 5 more military units (or an extra siege unit) can make huge differences in the battlefield. Add that to situations where you have Crosscut Saw, and that's another 5 pop space saved.
Of course, this only makes sense when resources are at least not scarce. Another situation these techs are useful is when you're trying to strip available resources from the map ASAP, which would allow you to have a late game timing attack when you finish all gold mines and can delete your vills for units.
My point is that I don't think we have to ONLY think about the payback time on resources. That's a factor, for sure, but considering it's a war game, and not a economy one, there's way more to it to consider.
While yes, pop efficiency is one thing we need to consider, the ridiculous cost on those tech makes them very hard to justify sometimes. It’s one thing to get better villager. It’s another when your better villager can’t bring you enough benefit to win you the game.
@@estellebright2579 I mean that by pop efficiency what we get back is a military benefit, not an economical one. We pay hella prices for military benefits all game. This is just another nuance that shouldn't be valued by it's [lack of] ROI character.
Awesome! Thank you kardes ;)
Rica ederim :)
horticulture and the like works on deer and boar? or did I misunderstand what you said
Yes they do. It affects all food gathering, not just farms.
@@ArawnOfAnnwn I know they affect farms, berries, and fish. just didn't know they affect hunt.
Just posted a correction on the pinned comment and saw yours. You're partially right - as it doesn't affect fish either. Only Farms, Berries, and Sheep. :)
@@AgeofNoob ah kk good to know!
How about the Chinese dynasty gather rate bonus. When will it be worth it?
I haven't tested Civ specific bonuses yet - will do so in the future. :)
You need the imperial food tech, because cap pop is a thing.
Delhi: confused elephant noises.
Delhi, the exception of AoE4!
what if you are fighting and constantly depleting your resources. Would an extra 5% or 10% wood gather rate help to sustain the fight and be de difference between winning and losing the fight? I take lumber upgrades simply because I want to sustain a fight at a higher attrition rate and also because I want to remove as many trees from the map and from my oppenents reach. With the lumber upgrades its not just an economic choice but also a strategic choice.
The answer to that question is, as always, "it depends". That's the reason why my Rules of Thumb require low minutes for payback - so you can focus on expansion and military. The more aggressive you are, the later you should get eco upgrades in general.
Could you do some tests for the abbasid-unique technology phalanx? I really like the concept of it, but am not so sure how viable it actually is.
Definitely important if you are attacking in numbers .... Plus it is what makes the Abbasides spearmen different than others. Always research it
like it !
How do the English bonuses change things?
I haven't tested Civ specific bonuses yet - will do so in the future. :)
where would the rus bounty come into all this? im generally curious if you even need to invest in food upgrades like other civs
anyone know how he rotates the image while recording it? is he doing it ingame? or is it the video software?
Most of my previous videos were manually controlled - so I tried to move my mouse while holding alt as smoothly as humanly possible.
I've begun using a mix of software and hardware since as a better solution. I programed certain keys to move the mouse a few pixels per second on either direction with no acceleration - hold that with Alt and you begin moving it smoothly. As far as the game goes, it's the mouse moving with the alt key - so nothing special game-wise.
@@AgeofNoob thank you so much. I commend the hand discipline you have my friend. XD
what about when we use granaries?
I will explore Granaries specifically in a future video. :)
@@AgeofNoob cool.. looking forward for it. your vidios are always very good and useful.
Do you think, that france receive the benefit of the Economy Upgrades by the half of the villiger numbers, because they have the half costs?
I now you didn't Test civ spesifications, but what would you espect?
PS: Thank you for your grade tests !!
Half is too aggressive I think - but you can safely assume that you can get those upgrades with 2/3rds of the required vill amount. You also get to those vill numbers quicker in the first place as well - which is another time advantage for sure. :)
@@AgeofNoob Ok,thank you for your answer !
Güzel video bazen zayıf ingilizcem nedeniyle anlıyamıyorum türkçe altyazı gelirse iyi olur :D
I would argue, now that we have a developing FFA meta and games easily go over one and a half hours in FFA, that you can justify the imperial upgrades more often. A good example is if you're one of the civs that likes to turtle up, go 5TC, make 180 workers and stockpile resources for a late game wonder defense. At that point I think a 10 minute payback is actually not the worst so you can get the upgrade real early. People in FFA take really long to die once they've established a big base.
I mean, if you're even allowed to go 5TC, 180 vills without dying, then yes by all means get all eco upgrades. :D
@@AgeofNoob Oh man I dream of that like twice a week
❤
Hey I matched up with hacker 2 days ago in AoE4 Custom. Do you want to make a video on it? I can send you screenshots or the whole video
Mongol Imp wheelbarrow will be included for the wheelbarrow video?
I'll take a look at Mongol upgrades in a future video! :)
Chinese farms work a bit different. Normal farms have a 4x3 Layout with each little plot being wirth 10 food hence wheelbarrow doesnt change a lot (since a farmer has to harvest 1.5 plots wich increases walking distance). Chinese farms have a 4x4 Layout with 7.5 food per Plot. That makes them worse compared to normal Farms . With wheelbarrow that changes and a chinese farmer can now harvest 2 plots in one trip wich makes them even better than normal Civs. SOTL made a great Video about it :
ruclips.net/video/4VvsA3wVNyI/видео.html
So if you play chinese wheelbarrow is an absulute must before you start farming
Mongols :')
Is this really how the nice the game looks? Man I need a better PC