Absolutely fascinating, thank you Jonas. Long since a favorite of mine, but as so often in music, this insight makes it even more fascinating and enjoyable. You are a genius!
Dreamer was composed only by Roger Hodgson when he was 17 years old. He had Sony recorder that (maybe was broken) could record and playback without limit. He played his new Wurlitzer, all the instruments and voices. Used cardboxes and even galsses with water. When the band tried to play Dreamer in the studio the music was so complex that they give up and used the original recording to play over it.
@@jonaswolfmusic1775 I'm not completely certain because i'm 57 years old and I'm a supertramp fan since 13 (a lot of reading about them), but I think I read it in The Supertramp Book, an almost 200 pages biography written by Martin Melhuish By Sound and Vision Omnibus Press published in 1986. There are also a DVD Supertramp 1974 - 1978 where many of the songs of this period are musically analysed by specialists, but nothing like your wonderful analysis. Thank you for your work!
Just watched your Nik Kershaw videos and continued into this since Supertramp also is a favorite band of mine. I've always liked when songs has kick on 2 and 4 instead of 1 and 3 and have never perceived the bridge part of Dreamer as shifted but just a very groovy kick on 2 and 4 with a complimentary base figure to enhance the backbeat feeling even more but I do agree that it is a really neat trick to make the part even more swingy and interesting.
I fully agree with your simpler explanation of a "groovy kick on 2 and 4", which is supported by the later development when the snare drum picks up that beat and kick and base return to their conventional patterns
@@KarstenSie I remember the song where I noted the 2 and 4 kick groove the first time. I think I was like 12 yo and it blew my mind that you could do that. 🙂 Even though the song is way younger the concept is so clear that you can't miss it. Suzanne Vega's "Rusted Pipe", about 56 seconds in: ruclips.net/video/HeDgAzdf8P4/видео.htmlsi=3kh3JjROaMDdnqM_ Supertramp obfuscates it way more with the base line and the electric piano, though, which makes it even more interesting.
I have the feeling that either artists who make music this intricate have to be trained musically or either because they aren't they don't feel any restraint and it let's incredible creativity flow like this. These techniques could even be used in many other styles.
Hey ! Thank you for such an interesting analysis! I am also shocked by the quality of your transcription. I have been looking for the keyboard part and yours is by far the best I have found on the internet, especially the left-hand bass that captures all the rhythmic parts perfectly. Could you make the PDF available in description ? Otherwise, I'm going to screenshot it :p Thanks a lot !
Again a song, I used to listen to turns out to be far more nuanced than I imagined. This explains why I always liked to listen to that scratched Supertramp CD that I found lying on the street as a child 🤣
Interesting observation. When in doubt as to whether this rhythm was made intentionally or casually, knowing the way Roger composed, I would dare to say casually. Roger recorded all the instruments of the song he composed on a multitrack tape and delivered it to the group almost completely finished. Whether he recorded the bass and drums or later changed them to that rhythm during rehearsals, it was most likely done intuitively, thinking that it sounded better that way. They did not put their songs into sheet music and they did not study chords, harmonies or time signatures. They were all self-taught, Roger started with the bass and Rick with the drums and they changed instruments as their needs and tastes changed. The most versatile was Roger, who mastered almost all the instruments to record the complete songs.
Interesting, I’ve never had any issues of feeling the 1 in that section… And considering that the bass line continues with the same groove even in the last A section, I feel that the heavy 2 and 4 beats are just a part of the feeling of this song. But I do think it’s an interesting idea to explore more.
Just watched too much of your videos especially the long one on nik kershaw which i’m obsessed with lol and subscribed cos you do an incredible job at explaining all that !! Theres a strange thing though i find in the perception of music and how we feel it differently as humans with different backgrounds and maybe nature anyway my perception here is that even though the concept of shifted meter is really interesting but i wouldnt apply it there as the groove in the bridge feels more simply like a kind of rythmical call and response with the keyboard and vocals putting the accent on the 1 and 3 and the bass and drum on the 2 and 4 which has this ping pong exchange effect that makes you want to dance Meaning the bass and drum probably feels where the 1 is like all the other instruments through all the song but makes it bouncy with the emphasis on the 2 and 4 instead but thats my perception how i feel the song i guess everyone can feel it differently .. Also Never noticed the chord progression changed keys and used modal interchange it sounds much simpler than it is its all really consonant Anyway Great analysis 😊😊
I disagree that switching the emphasis to 2 and 4 forces you realign the '1' in the bar. I have always heard he C section as a rock beat with emphasis on 2 and 4. If there was a 3 beat bar preceding then that might trick me query the 1 beat.
@@jonaswolfmusic1775 I still think the piano gives the clue to the '1' but then I am comfortable with strange timings and emphases being a Frank Zappa fan!
Popular music piece: *has beats 2 and 4 louder than 1 and 3 for some time* Classical music theorists: "Wow there is some shifted meter illusion going on, was it intended?" To me it seems like the thing gets way less spectacular when you look beyond the idea of classical music theory that beat 1 is supposed to have more weight than the others. It might make more sense to generalize the concept of a beat 1 to the point of a bar where a change of harmony feels the most organic. That's what beat 1s actually have in common through all music styles as far as I know. In Jazz it's actually the norm to put the weight on 2 and 4. Btw I found a correlation between music and politics: When it comes to identity politics, we observe that there is such a thing as conservative music (Schlager, most marches etc.) and anti-conservative music (jazz, metal etc.), which tends to be associated with some kind of progressive left. Why do we feel that way? I think it's because of the relationship of harmony and beats. In conservative music, the weighted beats are in line with the harmony changes, while in anti-conservative music, the weighted beats go against the harmony changes, either regularly (like in mainstream jazz) or wildly (like in progressive metal which is even named that way). In that way, you can express if you strive for mirrored hierarchies, no hierarchy at all or a complete different kind of hierarchies (polyrhythm etc.). But cool video, the song is pretty interesting indeed.
While I definitely agree that it can simply put to be "the 2 and the 4" are "louder" for some time (which on its own really isn't spectacular), I don't think that captures the whole point I am trying to make: that at the same time, the singer and the keyboards keep up the original 4/4 with the according stressing, and so we have a conflict of two different layers for some time, which in that 'shifted' constellation has never been described on a theoretical level as far as I am aware (I am happy to receive hints on material where it actually is described and I haven't found it). It is very telling that it hasn't been described at least to a level where I would easily have found it, since it seems to be a more common thing (at least from my very limited experience) in Western African music for example.
And I definitely agree that music where there is a clear hierarchy in parameters - especially the rhythm - is more appealing to a conservative mindset.
Hmm... If you listen to it as a performer I don't think there's so much pushing you to drop or add a beat... there's something on the backbeat all through the middle section. As 'just a listener' who's not necessarily still tapping out the back beat the moment the bass or the kick drum comes back in I can see you're more likely to have that feeling - a feeling that I can't have again knowing where 2 and 4 are! I'm wondering if the game would fall apart for new listeners if you just replace those kick drums (or toms) on the back beat with a snare. If it is just our understood convention of placing the kick drum on 1 and 3, then Reggae folk probably won't have that feeling.
i though the same thing im gonna make something out of the middle part :3 i feel like on that day the spirit fell upon them but it did not stay it shall stay with me though
Thanks for the great video. I know the song, but haven't listened to it very often; this is giving it a whole new perspective! I have an unrelated question... I don't have any musical skills, but I have a decent sense of rhythm. But when I listen to the song "Talk or Take a Walk" by Laura, it feels like there are notes... "missing" from the verses and bridge (the chorus is okay). Could you explain that? ruclips.net/video/rDH-Fo1pEeA/видео.html
Congratulations for your work. But, I have to say, though, I strongly disagree with your point about the time shift. What you're hearing in the bridge I would not actually define as a shift in meter, but rather a stylistic choice in the arrangement-something that's very common in popular music, especially with weak beat accents. For example, listeners familiar with the one-drop rhythm in reggae (where the kick and snare land on 2 and 4) might find this sensation of displacement you're talking about simply non-existent. It's all about the arrangement, not the meter itself.
@@RiccardoDiPaola thank you for your kind comment. I agree that one can come to different solutions / hearing dispositions. I am aware that putting kick and snare on 2 and 4 is a common practice, but what I try to bring about with this video is that it is a special phenomenon with this track for several reasons, as discussed in the video. I am trying to share my perception while fully aware there is lots of different hearing dispositions. So, thanks again for your thoughts, I totally understand your point!
@@jonaswolfmusic1775I understand, but the feeling you’re referring to is a perceptual one influenced by your academic background. When you say, “we can’t do anything but accept this as the new one,” you’re making a statement that you present as universal, but it’s very much your own. I find it extremely difficult to perceive it as you do, especially because you add that the perception of two different meters comes from the fact that the vocals remain where they are, which is exactly what anchors everything to the regular meter. It would have been a different story if the melodic line had shifted as well. Another element you mistakenly assume as universal is the downbeat of the bass, which you perceive as the 1, whereas to my ears it clearly remains on the 2, and my reasoning is backed by the fact that the phrase starts on the upbeat, even in the previous section.
@@RiccardoDiPaola To your first point: yes, it's presented in the video as universal. I take this critic with me. Second point: if the melodic line shifted as well, then everything would be the same, so (in my understanding) no shifted metre, right? But I think both of us can live on with different perceptions, especially with such a personal thing as a listening experience, it's only the most natural thing to happen. Again, presenting something as universal fact in the video is a critic I take as valid with me, and I thank you for pointing it out.
Thanks for your comment. I don't like the "you're just perceiving it wrong" part about it. It's a common thing to make accents on 2 and 4 in pop music, but there's a difference whether you play them like a 2 and 4 or whether you play them like a 1 and 3. I would admit that one can debate which of the two options is true here. The specialty with this case is that we will never be ultimatively sure because of the musical context.
@@jonaswolfmusic1775 I say it is a matter of perception, because I am certain the band counted those strong beats on 2 and 4 as 2 and 4, regardless of how they were stressed. You could call it a deceptive rhythm, but I really don’t think it requires analyzing as two different downbeats spread across the band. I have been listening to this song since childhood and never heard (perceived) it the way you do. As you pointed out already, the 4/4 is indicated clearly by the melody and where the chords change, there’s no meter shifting required. Other Supertramp songs use this deceptive downbeat feeling on 2 and 4, especially Fool’s Overture.
@@jonaswolfmusic1775 in the rehearsal section D from Grosse Fuge, the theme is shifted by half beat, creating a weird off-beat accent effect similar to this one.
Absolutely fascinating, thank you Jonas. Long since a favorite of mine, but as so often in music, this insight makes it even more fascinating and enjoyable. You are a genius!
Dreamer was composed only by Roger Hodgson when he was 17 years old. He had Sony recorder that (maybe was broken) could record and playback without limit. He played his new Wurlitzer, all the instruments and voices. Used cardboxes and even galsses with water. When the band tried to play Dreamer in the studio the music was so complex that they give up and used the original recording to play over it.
Hey there, thanks for the insight! I would be happy if you coud share a source where all of this can be looked up. Thanks in advance. :)
@@jonaswolfmusic1775 I'm not completely certain because i'm 57 years old and I'm a supertramp fan since 13 (a lot of reading about them), but I think I read it in The Supertramp Book, an almost 200 pages biography written by Martin Melhuish By Sound and Vision Omnibus Press published in 1986. There are also a DVD Supertramp 1974 - 1978 where many of the songs of this period are musically analysed by specialists, but nothing like your wonderful analysis. Thank you for your work!
@@PauloBaptista-jj6ek Thanks for your response!
Just watched your Nik Kershaw videos and continued into this since Supertramp also is a favorite band of mine. I've always liked when songs has kick on 2 and 4 instead of 1 and 3 and have never perceived the bridge part of Dreamer as shifted but just a very groovy kick on 2 and 4 with a complimentary base figure to enhance the backbeat feeling even more but I do agree that it is a really neat trick to make the part even more swingy and interesting.
I fully agree with your simpler explanation of a "groovy kick on 2 and 4", which is supported by the later development when the snare drum picks up that beat and kick and base return to their conventional patterns
@@KarstenSie I remember the song where I noted the 2 and 4 kick groove the first time. I think I was like 12 yo and it blew my mind that you could do that. 🙂 Even though the song is way younger the concept is so clear that you can't miss it. Suzanne Vega's "Rusted Pipe", about 56 seconds in: ruclips.net/video/HeDgAzdf8P4/видео.htmlsi=3kh3JjROaMDdnqM_
Supertramp obfuscates it way more with the base line and the electric piano, though, which makes it even more interesting.
I have the feeling that either artists who make music this intricate have to be trained musically or either because they aren't they don't feel any restraint and it let's incredible creativity flow like this. These techniques could even be used in many other styles.
One of my favourite songs of all time
The final keey change always seemed somehow "bigger" than others --- thanks for helping shed light on why!
Like the other commenters, I have often wondered where the happy tension in Dreamer came from. Nice job. Great band, great songwriting.
Hey ! Thank you for such an interesting analysis! I am also shocked by the quality of your transcription. I have been looking for the keyboard part and yours is by far the best I have found on the internet, especially the left-hand bass that captures all the rhythmic parts perfectly. Could you make the PDF available in description ? Otherwise, I'm going to screenshot it :p Thanks a lot !
Hey there, thanks for your enthusiastic feedback! I can share my transcription if you send me a personal message via my facebook or instagram account.
Again a song, I used to listen to turns out to be far more nuanced than I imagined. This explains why I always liked to listen to that scratched Supertramp CD that I found lying on the street as a child 🤣
So baseline of the story: always pick up those random CDs lying on the street.
Won't happen too often today in the age of streaming, however.🤔
@@jonaswolfmusic1775maybe I'll find a QR code to an album somewhere 🤷♂️
Interesting observation. When in doubt as to whether this rhythm was made intentionally or casually, knowing the way Roger composed, I would dare to say casually.
Roger recorded all the instruments of the song he composed on a multitrack tape and delivered it to the group almost completely finished. Whether he recorded the bass and drums or later changed them to that rhythm during rehearsals, it was most likely done intuitively, thinking that it sounded better that way. They did not put their songs into sheet music and they did not study chords, harmonies or time signatures. They were all self-taught, Roger started with the bass and Rick with the drums and they changed instruments as their needs and tastes changed. The most versatile was Roger, who mastered almost all the instruments to record the complete songs.
Interesting conclusion about the perspective how music is intended/percieved by different listeners with different backgrounds.
Thanks, Michael!
Interesting, I’ve never had any issues of feeling the 1 in that section… And considering that the bass line continues with the same groove even in the last A section, I feel that the heavy 2 and 4 beats are just a part of the feeling of this song. But I do think it’s an interesting idea to explore more.
Just watched too much of your videos especially the long one on nik kershaw which i’m obsessed with lol and subscribed cos you do an incredible job at explaining all that !!
Theres a strange thing though i find in the perception of music and how we feel it differently as humans with different backgrounds and maybe nature anyway my perception here is that even though the concept of shifted meter is really interesting but i wouldnt apply it there as the groove in the bridge feels more simply like a kind of rythmical call and response with the keyboard and vocals putting the accent on the 1 and 3 and the bass and drum on the 2 and 4 which has this ping pong exchange effect that makes you want to dance
Meaning the bass and drum probably feels where the 1 is like all the other instruments through all the song but makes it bouncy with the emphasis on the 2 and 4 instead but thats my perception how i feel the song i guess everyone can feel it differently ..
Also
Never noticed the chord progression changed keys and used modal interchange it sounds much simpler than it is its all really consonant
Anyway Great analysis 😊😊
Thank you for your enthusiastic comment and also your honest feedback!
I don't think you have a license to be able to sell this arrangement, but is it available for free? What other songs have you scored?
Hey there, write me via my instagram or facebook page, then I can share you a score.
Could it be called inferred delayed rythmic response
IDRR, I like it
Ligeti would have given props! :D
As I see that you read the comments, I suggest another song by Roger in which almost all the downbeats are the 2nd and 4th: Lord is mine
I disagree that switching the emphasis to 2 and 4 forces you realign the '1' in the bar. I have always heard he C section as a rock beat with emphasis on 2 and 4. If there was a 3 beat bar preceding then that might trick me query the 1 beat.
Interesting! How do you experience it when you start to play from a point where the emphasis is on 2 or 4 already? For example as shown here 15:46
@@jonaswolfmusic1775 I still think the piano gives the clue to the '1' but then I am comfortable with strange timings and emphases being a Frank Zappa fan!
Popular music piece: *has beats 2 and 4 louder than 1 and 3 for some time*
Classical music theorists: "Wow there is some shifted meter illusion going on, was it intended?"
To me it seems like the thing gets way less spectacular when you look beyond the idea of classical music theory that beat 1 is supposed to have more weight than the others. It might make more sense to generalize the concept of a beat 1 to the point of a bar where a change of harmony feels the most organic. That's what beat 1s actually have in common through all music styles as far as I know.
In Jazz it's actually the norm to put the weight on 2 and 4.
Btw I found a correlation between music and politics:
When it comes to identity politics, we observe that there is such a thing as conservative music (Schlager, most marches etc.) and anti-conservative music (jazz, metal etc.), which tends to be associated with some kind of progressive left.
Why do we feel that way? I think it's because of the relationship of harmony and beats. In conservative music, the weighted beats are in line with the harmony changes, while in anti-conservative music, the weighted beats go against the harmony changes, either regularly (like in mainstream jazz) or wildly (like in progressive metal which is even named that way).
In that way, you can express if you strive for mirrored hierarchies, no hierarchy at all or a complete different kind of hierarchies (polyrhythm etc.).
But cool video, the song is pretty interesting indeed.
While I definitely agree that it can simply put to be "the 2 and the 4" are "louder" for some time (which on its own really isn't spectacular), I don't think that captures the whole point I am trying to make: that at the same time, the singer and the keyboards keep up the original 4/4 with the according stressing, and so we have a conflict of two different layers for some time, which in that 'shifted' constellation has never been described on a theoretical level as far as I am aware (I am happy to receive hints on material where it actually is described and I haven't found it). It is very telling that it hasn't been described at least to a level where I would easily have found it, since it seems to be a more common thing (at least from my very limited experience) in Western African music for example.
And I definitely agree that music where there is a clear hierarchy in parameters - especially the rhythm - is more appealing to a conservative mindset.
Hmm... If you listen to it as a performer I don't think there's so much pushing you to drop or add a beat... there's something on the backbeat all through the middle section. As 'just a listener' who's not necessarily still tapping out the back beat the moment the bass or the kick drum comes back in I can see you're more likely to have that feeling - a feeling that I can't have again knowing where 2 and 4 are! I'm wondering if the game would fall apart for new listeners if you just replace those kick drums (or toms) on the back beat with a snare. If it is just our understood convention of placing the kick drum on 1 and 3, then Reggae folk probably won't have that feeling.
i though the same thing im gonna make something out of the middle part :3 i feel like on that day the spirit fell upon them but it did not stay it shall stay with me though
thank you so much for your analysis its genius!!!!
@@KenjiStarwolf thanks for your kind words. 🙂
Thanks for the great video. I know the song, but haven't listened to it very often; this is giving it a whole new perspective!
I have an unrelated question... I don't have any musical skills, but I have a decent sense of rhythm. But when I listen to the song "Talk or Take a Walk" by Laura, it feels like there are notes... "missing" from the verses and bridge (the chorus is okay). Could you explain that? ruclips.net/video/rDH-Fo1pEeA/видео.html
Nice to hear that this gives you a new perspective.
I will listen into your suggestion at a later stage.
For the hell of being pretentious, if the B part was repeated after the long bridge section, the structure could be described as a sonata form.
Congratulations for your work. But, I have to say, though, I strongly disagree with your point about the time shift. What you're hearing in the bridge I would not actually define as a shift in meter, but rather a stylistic choice in the arrangement-something that's very common in popular music, especially with weak beat accents.
For example, listeners familiar with the one-drop rhythm in reggae (where the kick and snare land on 2 and 4) might find this sensation of displacement you're talking about simply non-existent. It's all about the arrangement, not the meter itself.
And before your reply, I'm talking about the displacement of chords and anticipating rhythm as well. 🙂
@@RiccardoDiPaola thank you for your kind comment. I agree that one can come to different solutions / hearing dispositions. I am aware that putting kick and snare on 2 and 4 is a common practice, but what I try to bring about with this video is that it is a special phenomenon with this track for several reasons, as discussed in the video. I am trying to share my perception while fully aware there is lots of different hearing dispositions. So, thanks again for your thoughts, I totally understand your point!
@@jonaswolfmusic1775I understand, but the feeling you’re referring to is a perceptual one influenced by your academic background. When you say, “we can’t do anything but accept this as the new one,” you’re making a statement that you present as universal, but it’s very much your own. I find it extremely difficult to perceive it as you do, especially because you add that the perception of two different meters comes from the fact that the vocals remain where they are, which is exactly what anchors everything to the regular meter. It would have been a different story if the melodic line had shifted as well. Another element you mistakenly assume as universal is the downbeat of the bass, which you perceive as the 1, whereas to my ears it clearly remains on the 2, and my reasoning is backed by the fact that the phrase starts on the upbeat, even in the previous section.
@@RiccardoDiPaola To your first point: yes, it's presented in the video as universal. I take this critic with me. Second point: if the melodic line shifted as well, then everything would be the same, so (in my understanding) no shifted metre, right?
But I think both of us can live on with different perceptions, especially with such a personal thing as a listening experience, it's only the most natural thing to happen. Again, presenting something as universal fact in the video is a critic I take as valid with me, and I thank you for pointing it out.
@@jonaswolfmusic1775 glad to have such a nice and polite confrontation. Thank you.
When you cover Supertramp on your channel, you will get my like and my sub and i consider you as a friend :) thanks
Hello friend :)
There‘s no tomfoolery with the beat, it’s a standard rock beat, you‘re just perceiving it wrong. It’s common to accent beats 2 and 4 in pop music.
Thanks for your comment. I don't like the "you're just perceiving it wrong" part about it. It's a common thing to make accents on 2 and 4 in pop music, but there's a difference whether you play them like a 2 and 4 or whether you play them like a 1 and 3. I would admit that one can debate which of the two options is true here. The specialty with this case is that we will never be ultimatively sure because of the musical context.
@@jonaswolfmusic1775 I say it is a matter of perception, because I am certain the band counted those strong beats on 2 and 4 as 2 and 4, regardless of how they were stressed. You could call it a deceptive rhythm, but I really don’t think it requires analyzing as two different downbeats spread across the band. I have been listening to this song since childhood and never heard (perceived) it the way you do. As you pointed out already, the 4/4 is indicated clearly by the melody and where the chords change, there’s no meter shifting required. Other Supertramp songs use this deceptive downbeat feeling on 2 and 4, especially Fool’s Overture.
Beethoven use this a lot
What exactly are you referring to? Polyrhythm? Cross Rhythm? Any examples?
@@jonaswolfmusic1775 in the rehearsal section D from Grosse Fuge, the theme is shifted by half beat, creating a weird off-beat accent effect similar to this one.