EXCELLENT VIDEO, very interesting and useful when trying to play notes through the whole range. As a saxophonist the tongue really makes a difference, and the same for the trumpet.
Awesome video thanks so much. A couple of items come to mind that weren’t really discussed, perhaps because they have no bearing on the analysis. I play both the Trumpet and French Horn. I am in my late 60s and started playing the French Horn about five years ago in addition to the Trumpet in several community groups. I personally have a very limited range of E above high C, if I am lucky. I have noticed in my playing that if I don’t hear a higher pitch in my mind first in the upper register there is no way that I can actually play a note in the upper register. By hearing the upper register in my mind, rather than the lower register, something is changing physiologically to allow me to play higher. Wish I could figure out what is changing anatomically. The other observation is that everybody is different from the start anatomically. Different tongue shapes and sizes along with the shape and size of the oral cavity through which the air is being blown, and still another factor could be if the tonsils and uvula have been removed in a surgical procedure. Is the difference between the ultimate range of a player at some point limited by the anatomical structure of the oral cavity and its components, 🤷🏼♂️. Again thanks for a very informative well researched and interesting video. I just came across your RUclips site and thoroughly enjoy it ,besides learning a lot from it.
For me.. when I change registers, or do lip trills the tongue automatically shifts to the upper part of the mouth. However, I find that the slight jaw movement makes a much stronger difference.
To me it feels like the tongue is making the air stream smaller, giving me less weight against the aperture, allowing the aperture to become smaller without having to resist the wide activation of a very large airstream. Like, at G above high C, my tongue is extremely high (the air sounds like a cat hissing), but my aperture is also very firm and small. It's as if the tongue puts a "brake" on the air, removing stress on my aperture while allowing my abdomen to maintain air momentum. With my tongue down as low as possible, I lose about an octave of range. Personally, as a player who discovered how to play high early in their development, I am HIGHLY skeptical of the Venturi effect as it pertains to trumpet playing. I have always maintained that air velocity is to volume as aperture length is to pitch. That's just my perception though and I have been dying for a physicist to discover, conclusively, the primary mechanisms for register manipulation on the instrument. I think this would give teachers a much higher batting average when it comes to the success of their students. In any case, amazing work. Thank you for being so thorough.
The "weight" you are describing is the outward force due to the air pressure against the boundaries of the oral space. Making the oral space smaller reduces the outward force in that area making it easier to hold things together in regard to the embouchure requirements of higer tones.
Great Content and very informativ… if the tongue would play no role in playing and changing pitch How would, the old trumpets and the clarin trumpet players in the Baroque area, for example, play in that range or doing Ornamentiks or any kind of thrill and fast movement.. not possible at all.. and if you know that the trumpet is in case no wind instrument(among of air) it’s a compressive instrument, then you will recognize that you have to use your tongue as a second compress tool.. So as many top, Baroque, trumpet players, and lead trumpet players do and use.. and in case it’s totally simple.. thanks for your video. And good luck to all of you, who are looking for the best way to play and make beautiful music..❤️👋😊🎺
Thats fascinating, great run down on tongue use! I am still trying to figure out how to use it (almost there). I either exaggerate the movemnt and forget about airflow. It all has to work in complete harmony and played with intention. 🎺
in order to prove the tongue has an effect, you could have restricted the airflow in your ballon - lip setup by squeezing the pipe and create resistance this way like the tongue does :D Also when you moved the tongue lower at the high C, you probably altered the air pressure also otherwise you should have gone louder if the lips stay the same. Great discussion and new ideas. My goal as a scientist to solve this problem soon :)
There is no problem to solve. The tongue movement is related to lip posture by natural anatomical actions and habits. The tongue doesn't pressurize the air. It doesn't make the air "faster," and it has no direct influence on the pitch.
@@darryljones9208 I already know who you are and what you believe.. unfortunately - regarding all your convincement - there is no scientific work I have seen from you yet to prove your points.
@olympicfan2 what points? That the tongue doesn't "compress" the air ? There are established air mechanics that support that. The tongue can only add additional resistance in the flow path from very little to practically infinite, depending on the position . Poiseuille law is a scientific fact .
In other words, there's at least three systems all acting together and focusing too much on any one is going to be an issue/vary with the player's own awareness/enervation of a particular system -- and our lips and tongue have as much nerve/brain space as our fingertips...
You are misunderstanding the Bernoulli principle. The lip aperture is obviously the only thing qualifying as a venturi. Simply narrowing the oral space with the tongue creates no venturi relative to the lip aperture. Also, narrowing the flow path before the lip aperture DOES NOT increase the air flow velocity through the lip aperture. Your "venturi" diagram does not represent the geometry of the flow path when playing. The tongue and the lips are part of an EATING machine. The lips tensioning and tongue movements are quite anatomically linked. THAT is the truth of it. And it is no mystery. It has no direct effect on pitch. It should not be discouraged obviously because playing is more natural and comfortable when allowingthe mouth to mimic natural postures related to spitting out a grain of sand or the like.
EXCELLENT VIDEO, very interesting and useful when trying to play notes through the whole range. As a saxophonist the tongue really makes a difference, and the same for the trumpet.
Thank you for making these! As a dad of a young trumpeter, but a non player, this is very useful to help support his learning.
Glad to be able to help!
Thank you for the wonderful two part video (and the third part of the duology)!
I think I liked that and I think I understood most of it.
Thank you.
Awesome video thanks so much.
A couple of items come to mind that weren’t really discussed, perhaps because they have no bearing on the analysis. I play both the Trumpet and French Horn. I am in my late 60s and started playing the French Horn about five years ago in addition to the Trumpet in several community groups. I personally have a very limited range of E above high C, if I am lucky. I have noticed in my playing that if I don’t hear a higher pitch in my mind first in the upper register there is no way that I can actually play a note in the upper register. By hearing the upper register in my mind, rather than the lower register, something is changing physiologically to allow me to play higher. Wish I could figure out what is changing anatomically. The other observation is that everybody is different from the start anatomically. Different tongue shapes and sizes along with the shape and size of the oral cavity through which the air is being blown, and still another factor could be if the tonsils and uvula have been removed in a surgical procedure. Is the difference between the ultimate range of a player at some point limited by the anatomical structure of the oral cavity and its components, 🤷🏼♂️. Again thanks for a very informative well researched and interesting video. I just came across your RUclips site and thoroughly enjoy it ,besides learning a lot from it.
For me.. when I change registers, or do lip trills the tongue automatically shifts to the upper part of the mouth. However, I find that the slight jaw movement makes a much stronger difference.
It’s great you’ve done all this research for us 👏🎶🎺making a lot of sense to me 😊Thank You Sir great teacher 😊
To me it feels like the tongue is making the air stream smaller, giving me less weight against the aperture, allowing the aperture to become smaller without having to resist the wide activation of a very large airstream. Like, at G above high C, my tongue is extremely high (the air sounds like a cat hissing), but my aperture is also very firm and small. It's as if the tongue puts a "brake" on the air, removing stress on my aperture while allowing my abdomen to maintain air momentum. With my tongue down as low as possible, I lose about an octave of range. Personally, as a player who discovered how to play high early in their development, I am HIGHLY skeptical of the Venturi effect as it pertains to trumpet playing. I have always maintained that air velocity is to volume as aperture length is to pitch. That's just my perception though and I have been dying for a physicist to discover, conclusively, the primary mechanisms for register manipulation on the instrument. I think this would give teachers a much higher batting average when it comes to the success of their students.
In any case, amazing work. Thank you for being so thorough.
The "weight" you are describing is the outward force due to the air pressure against the boundaries of the oral space. Making the oral space smaller reduces the outward force in that area making it easier to hold things together in regard to the embouchure requirements of higer tones.
Great Content and very informativ… if the tongue would play no role in playing and changing pitch How would, the old trumpets and the clarin trumpet players in the Baroque area, for example, play in that range or doing Ornamentiks or any kind of thrill and fast movement.. not possible at all.. and if you know that the trumpet is in case no wind instrument(among of air) it’s a compressive instrument, then you will recognize that you have to use your tongue as a second compress tool.. So as many top, Baroque, trumpet players, and lead trumpet players do and use.. and in case it’s totally simple.. thanks for your video. And good luck to all of you, who are looking for the best way to play and make beautiful music..❤️👋😊🎺
No. The tongue is not a "compression tool." It does not compress the air.
Thats fascinating, great run down on tongue use! I am still trying to figure out how to use it (almost there). I either exaggerate the movemnt and forget about airflow. It all has to work in complete harmony and played with intention. 🎺
in order to prove the tongue has an effect, you could have restricted the airflow in your ballon - lip setup by squeezing the pipe and create resistance this way like the tongue does :D Also when you moved the tongue lower at the high C, you probably altered the air pressure also otherwise you should have gone louder if the lips stay the same. Great discussion and new ideas. My goal as a scientist to solve this problem soon :)
Be sure to let me know what you come up with!
There is no problem to solve. The tongue movement is related to lip posture by natural anatomical actions and habits. The tongue doesn't pressurize the air. It doesn't make the air "faster," and it has no direct influence on the pitch.
@@darryljones9208 I already know who you are and what you believe.. unfortunately - regarding all your convincement - there is no scientific work I have seen from you yet to prove your points.
@olympicfan2 what points? That the tongue doesn't "compress" the air ? There are established air mechanics that support that. The tongue can only add additional resistance in the flow path from very little to practically infinite, depending on the position . Poiseuille law is a scientific fact .
In other words, there's at least three systems all acting together and focusing too much on any one is going to be an issue/vary with the player's own awareness/enervation of a particular system -- and our lips and tongue have as much nerve/brain space as our fingertips...
You are misunderstanding the Bernoulli principle.
The lip aperture is obviously the only thing qualifying as a venturi. Simply narrowing the oral space with the tongue creates no venturi relative to the lip aperture.
Also, narrowing the flow path before the lip aperture DOES NOT increase the air flow velocity through the lip aperture.
Your "venturi" diagram does not represent the geometry of the flow path when playing.
The tongue and the lips are part of an EATING machine. The lips tensioning and tongue movements are quite anatomically linked. THAT is the truth of it. And it is no mystery.
It has no direct effect on pitch.
It should not be discouraged obviously because playing is more natural and comfortable when allowingthe mouth to mimic natural postures related to spitting out a grain of sand or the like.