With 1600 hours teaching in the Cabri... I've been in ground resonance once. The Cabri was designed as a trainer from the ground up. You can do autos with the door closed from left seat, it is just much easier to have the door on the string, the string is the same thing as opening a vent on the door, just larger. They also put in writing that the cabri cannot get unto LTE from vortex ring state of the tail rotor, nor from main rotor interference, it is however susceptible to weather veining. Plasma is just an electronic ignition, like a cars.. much smoother than a mag. Blades are weighted to it is a high inertia system. Hands down, as a trainer it beats the 22 in everything but cost. But... there are only 3 parts that can time out... engine, main transmission, and tail transmission. All others are on condition. Sensors and such do go out on them quite often, but not often enough to cause a problem, as parts can be overnighted.
Great breakdown John and now that I have been flying it consistently I completly agree that it is hands down the best trainer helicopter. I also have been in ground resonance only once, I learned a lot from it!!
Great videos. A small point... it's not the "Zero-360" it's the (letter) Oh-360, abbreviation for (horizontally) Opposed (cylinders). Keep on keeping on.
Great video comparison. I'm a 65 y.o. male private pilot. No longer current. I have taken rides in a Bell 47, Bell 206 Jet Ranger, and an A-Star. My interest in helicopters was rekindled by the latest Robinison crash in Texas. In total there have been more than 1,600 accidents or incidents involving Robinson Helicopter aircraft, more than 425 of them fatal accidents resulting in more than 700 deaths. I am astounded that Robinson has not really made any major redesigns of its models. The mast always has seemed too tall and the rotor system on top looks too small and fragile for it's intended purpose. The Cabri clearly has a larger and more robust system. I get it, Robinson's are cheaper but they appear to lack any desire to make their helicopters safer. If I were looking to learn to fly a helicopter I would stay away from them. Even learning on a Robinson platform is prohibitively expensive in my opinion so no matter what you a going to pay an arm and a leg figuratively speaking. I think Cabri Helicopters is still trying to get the copter certified in the U.S. which will cost some dough. It is already certified in Europe. If I could write a check for any amount I would learn in a Bell 206 Jet Ranger. Very safe and believe it or not more 206's have been sold than Robinsons. Then I would either buy a 206 or buy a MD-500. That is the best bang for the buck in my opiinion. Multiple blades, super stable, highly maneuverable, higly reliable, and turbine power. I thought about learing to fly helos after college but ended getting into other things. The best way still learn today in my opinion is to learn in the Army. They know what they are doing with helicopter training. And, I don't think you need to have a college degree.
Wow! Thank you so much for this! I loved reading your research on Robinson Crash statistics. And even though it does seem extremely dangerous due to the number of crashes and fatalities, you have to compare it to the number of safe flight hours flown. And whatever that crash rate percentage is.... is what they are willing to accept. I have absolutely no clue what it is but I imagine it's far less than 1 percent and then the economic value you get from the design is very high so it's definitely a needle you have to tread carefully. Thank you for the extremely engaging and stimulating comment! I really appreciate you being here.
The Robbinson helicopters are the most popular in the world so crash rate is a more important statistic than overall numbers. Also the bell 206 has the same rotor design as robbinson, its just heavier making less likely to get into mast bumping, the Carbri has a fully articulated making a safer rotor design, the max winds it can fly in is the main benefit in the 206 since it's much heavier than both.
Sad you're leaving but happy for you and I'm excited to witness your journey. This video is really fun and so informative. You guys just were enjoying yourself! Really cool
Another great video Devin.. I just discovered your channel and have subscribed. I'm just an RC heli pilot and a helicopter enthusiast, but i've watched a lot of vids about real helicopters. Concerning the ground resonance problem with the fully articulated rotor.. I undertstand that Cabri has some kind of arrangement whereby the skids are not directly attached to the body of the craft to counteract ground resonance to some extent at least.
Hey man thank you so much for subscribing! So glad to have you here. Yes that is my understanding as well. There is something (and I'm not exactly sure how it works) but something to prevent a shockwave traveling from the skids up into the fuselage and then into the rotor. As I fly it more I will learn more about that system but seems like a sound design.
Thank you for your enthousiastic, complete and fair video! I've done my things in avation (accountable manager of a flying school and CEO of a small fleet), but all just fixed wing. Alas. Helis, however, have allways been pulling & tickling. Here in Europe (The Netherlands) flying is very expensive and heli flying almost unaffordable. Regulations (ICAO JAR-FCL) are extremely strict. To me in the USA flying is almost free, regulations (FAA) less strict and lots of space there in the circuits too. I understand (theoretically) how a heli works, but apart from from just holding the stick of a Bell Jet Ranger for 30 minutes during an overland my experience is really zero. I am orientating a bit for some lessons at R22 vs R44 vs Cabri2. Just to try & taste the fun. Here the Cabri hourly is priced equal or lower than the R22 (I will choose for the best future, not the cheapest). I understand why the hourly price is low despite the high selling price. The hourly cost of the heli is set, apart from maintenance & variable cost, for a big part by the TBO (so too the remaining value at the balance at the end, when selling the heli). The Cabri can fly completely and theoretically on condition, the R22 (engine and airframe) can be thrown away after 12 years/2200 hrs. John Simpson below explains this very well. I'm used to these calculations having been fleet owner. Maybe interesting: we (the first in the country I am proud to say) bought 3 Diamond DA40 (2 x VFR, 1 x IFR, night-VFR isn't allowed here) and one twin DA42 to replace some Pipers and Cessnas. Those DA40's and DA42 are diesel (and JetA1) airplanes and proved to be much more reliable, safe and economic to operate than the old Lycoming stuff. You can compare it very well I suppose with the Cabri vs the R22. Apart from the lycoming. No bringing in the plane for small inspections, but just connect it via the internet directly to the factory for a remote diagnosis with running engine and reading out the logs of engine, gearbox and soms plane sensors. The diesel engine needs a gearbox anyway. Like a heli. I just mentioned this, because a diesel engine seems ideal for a heli. I think. It loves to rev at a low steady RPM (better gearbox ratio), has tons of torque, is light in weight (!) and uses very few cheap fuel. Maybe in the future? I know, certification is a lang and expensive proces. But, my question. I actually allready (in my mind) made my choice. But most USA choppers (as Robinson) turn counterclockwise, as European (and Russian) ones turn clockwise. For me that would mean (in a Cabri) adding right rudder when applying power (or torque), exactly as I am used to in most (if not all, single engine) fixed wing planes. That comes naturally. Another point is, there are less Cabris available than R22 or R44 (those schools first will have to burn their R's, so: how hard important is conversion from Counter- to Clockwise vv. I noticed, if I am right, that the first part of practical Heli training is spent learning the right coordination. And being sensiteve to the controls. For the latter, just maybe I'm lucky, I always fly with just two fingers. I learnes my lesson almost the very hard way, when flying a nasty french plane with a tendency to unexpectly spin (needing an exactly opposite and very fast pilot's reaction to recover). I almost fell back to my training habits and did the wrong thing (for this plane). Almost, otherwise I would have writting my reaction/question. But I then found out how deep one's first training kreeps into one's genes.
Whether mast bumping is pilot error or not, id rather avoid any heli that even with a pilots mishap, is capable of slicing the tail boom clean off n causing a long drawn out most terrifying certain death that u know is coming and u cannot avoid it. Mast bumping has killed SO many of whom made a very quick mistake of a low g push, then free falled in the cabin to their death within seconds. No aircraft or any transport vehicle should have the ability to self destruct, especialy so easily. Id take the Cabri.
So very well put. I would not even ride in a Robinson, but I'm a fixed wing pilot anyway. It would be the wonderful Hughes 269/300 if it were my skin. That's for sure!!
🇫🇷 1. I definitely would not buy one of these if I had a blank check it would most like be a MD 2. I believe you nailed this video man couldn’t agree more you are doing amazing
Fair comparison. I would only say that the R22 was designed 50 years ago. Think of comparing a 50 year old car to new one in terms of comfort and technology. As you do point out, mechanical design learns and improves (hopefully) over time as it should. It would be quite disappointing if the Cabri was not superior in many ways. That the R22 is still popular and even in a comparison such as this is a testament to how great of a design it was/is.
French flag, I made it! Here's a point of view from the lowest hour guy there is. I only have about five hours, four in an R-22, and one in an R-44. Never been in a Cabri. But just looking at the videos I know I would prefer it to the 22 for the extra room, higher inertia rotor, a normal looking mast, normal cyclic and more comprehensive instruments. The 22 fuselage is suspended from a much higher point giving the aircraft an unnatural pendular feel. I noticed the difference immediately in the 44 which felt worlds better. It has the same mast but it seems to work better in that larger aircraft. On my very last lesson I was actually able to straight and level, change altitude and use the instruments, something I could not do in the 22. Maybe you could drop a quick note here with a thumbnail for comparing Cabri vs R-44 because I love that machine. Also I've been told R-22 is a good training heli precisely because it's small and squirrelly. Graduating to bigger & better machines becomes easier, I haven't experienced it that far ahead though. Looking for your thoughts. Great video, keep em coming!
Enjoyed the video. However, the performance section should include hover performance: For instance, the G2 weighs more empty than the r22. This makes a huge difference at altitude. If both aircraft were loaded at normal “flight training weights (two 180lb pilots and 2.5 hours of fuel) the G2 In ground effect hover is 5500’ pressure altitude at 20 degrees C. The R22 at max gross weight of 1370lbs can hover at 8000’ pressure altitude at 20 degrees C. My home field is at 5622’ MSL, so the G2 wouldn’t even be able to hover here at 1400lbs in a training set-up. The R22 has a much bigger power margin at altitude.
French Flag :D Have only flown Robinsons, but would so love to try the Cabri sometime. If I had a preference, even though not having flown one, I think would prefer to teach in the Cabri, the safety alone, make it the better choice. My only concern is different spin of the main rotor, clockwise verse counter clockwise.
🇫🇷 I have a decent amount of time in both. Got my PPL in the Cabri then switched to the R22. I liked all of the Cabri’s features, but the cost per hour got to be a lot.
I completly agree with this. But is there a peice to be paid on safety and on your life? and is it worth paying more for that 3 bladed rotor system. Is it going to make a diffrence?
The Cabri is the one that you're increasingly likely to see in the air, The R22 however is far more likely to be a smoking wreck in pieces on the ground.
Robinsons as a whole are an accident prone mess. I see and hear about more crashes of R44s and R22s more than literally every other helicopter. The boom connected to the main rotor is a design flow for sure
Its funny, listening to this is like listening to someone compare a Honda Civic from 1979 to a Honda Civic from 2016. In the end though, the view from the air is the same, so why would I pay more for it? Bells and whistles don't impress me, especially given that my eyes are looking outside for the vast majority of the flight. Now, I've never flown the Cabri as the nearest one is about $100 bucks more per hour than the 22 and that's just too much for what is essentially just another two seat piston. I have flown a 300, 500 and Enstrom though and I just prefer the feel of a two-bladed rotor. Fully-articulated rotors just don't feel as responsive as semi-ridged ones,...and I love how sensitive the 22's controls are. Sure that makes it more hair raising for an instructor, but its also what makes it so much fun to fly. Safety features are not a sell for me, partly because my first car didn't even have seat belts (or any noticable safety features for that matter) so that stuff just isn't all that important to me (I'm not as obsessed with crashing as a lot of the younger generation seems to be), but also because I've never felt not safe in the 22. So yeah, I prefer the 22. Its partly nostalgia as I got my wings in one, but I also have 500 solo hours in them and they are just fun as all Hell to fly! If money were no object I would still want to own a 22 simply because I love flying it, but sitting across from it in my hangar (right next to my silver 1975 Countach) would be a Bell 222, as it is the sexiest helicopter design, retractable gear is awesome, and those two incredibly massive blades never cease to leave me in awe everytime I see them!🇨🇵
This was so fun to read. Thank you for saying this. This is why I made this channel. I love talking helicopter stuff with helicopter people. I had never heard of the Bell 222. I just looked it up. That is an insane helicopter!
🟦⬜🟥 1: I would get a H125 B3e or H135 for reasonable private flying 2: My winner between R22 and Cabri G2 is clearly the Cabri G2 hands down, because as you said a lot has been made to improve over the R22 flaws. No offense toward the R22, let's not forget that the R22 was not originally designed to be a trainer. One downside to the Cabri G2 however is that the rotor blades are low to the ground, the rotor is pretty much the same height that you can find on ultralight helicopters. Cheers ! ... from France !
Although in a completely different class in terms of capabilities and performance, the upcoming Hill HX50 is not that far away in price (£495k) from the Cabri, and about the same as a R44 for the base model. I would love to see a comparison video about that helicopter (VS R44, R66, 505, MD500, etc.), and discussion around how you think it will impact the helicopter industry. They already have more than 500 pre-orders, with the first deliveries expected in 2024. If the HX50 performs as expected, it looks like it will make a huge impact on the personal helicopter world. I would definitely appreciate your (and others) analysis. I don't think I would want to own serial #001, but >serial #400 should be relatively safe, as folks start getting hours under their belts and they make any adjustments required. It's strange to me that I don't see more helicopter folks covering the HX50, but I think that's going to change, as the Hill Helicopter team seems to be on a roll. They have also focused on reducing ongoing ownership OPEX maintenance and insurance cost as well. Very exciting for non-commercial, personal applications! (The commercial, certified version is supposed to come out a couple years later)
@@Jimmyjames11111 Are you ignorant of the fact that Hill Helicopters now have orders for almost 1,000 HX50 + HC50??? They release update videos every month, and share them on RUclips. The whole project is on schedule. They're working on their 8th full testing body. They have demonstrated the flight electronics/displays. They have the geartrain developed. They should be able to assemble an engine soon... I guess you're just a hater?
@@DanielShipley Hill is the worlds most expensive "Kickstarter"* project. You still look relatively young, so if you bought one today, you might get it in 3~5 years. But so far they haven't even powered up the engine or tested the transmission or rotors. Hill said they would not deliver any helicopters until they had 3 flying prototypes with over 1000 of flight testing hours on each one. As for the price... we'll have to see. The HC50 is nearing $1 million which wont be shipping for about 6 years (maybe). Remember that the R-22 was named as such because Frank Robinson (the "R") was targeting the price to be $22,000 at introduction. 3 years later the first ones sold for double that and quickly grew to well over $66k in about a year. Are you ignorant of the fact that the HX50 is a KIT that requires the owner to build 51% of it !? Kit built aircraft are licensed as Experimental Aircraft in the US, with interesting restrictions. *FYI: Historically, the majority of all "Kickstarter" product fail.
@@shazam6274 LOL, I don't think there's any apt comparison of Hill Helicopters, which has raised tens of millions of $$ in pre-orders, has >50 employees, has tens of thousands of square feet of office and production space, and shown complete airframes, with a measly Kickstarter project. Comparing them to an early version of Tesla would be more accurate. You can't "buy a HX50 today". You can only pre-order, and based on the now huge backlog of orders, yes it may be 3-5 years before receiving one. If you wanted one sooner, you would have to have ordered sooner. Everyone who has pre-ordered has a locked in price & S/N, well below $1M, even for the HC50 (commercial/non-experimental version of the HX50). It has been widely discussed that the price would be increasing as Hill approaches delivery. Even at $1M, the HC50 would be less than half the cost of its competitors, with better performance/features. The HX50 really doesn't have any direct competitors in the market. The R66 would be closest in price, and is not experimental, but doesn't have the performance, features, or size. Are you ignorant that everyone who pre-orders the HX50 signs a contract with respect to what they're buying? Obviously it's clear, everywhere, that it's built under experimental rules. That's the whole reason there's two versions of the same helicopter: one built for personal ownership at minimal cost under experimental rules, and one that's for commercial use. Perhaps your ignorant that the entire idea of the HX50, from the start, was to minimize cost by benefitting from the experimental classification, among other strategies (such as vertical integration, group insurance, etc.)? I'm not aware of any significant restrictions on experimental aircraft for private owners, except on operation over densely populated areas until approved by an Administrator. Additionally, you compare the final phase of build of the HX50 with a "KIT", which suggests your lack of understanding of the build process, whereby the owner completes final assembly of major components under expert supervision, at the factory, within ~1 week. You seem convinced Hill Helicopters will fail. Well, so far, their rise has been meteoric. Time will tell. For the benefit of general aviation, which has been in a slow death spiral due to ever increasing cost and stagnation in design, I hope they are successful in delivering their new and invigorating products to the market.
One thing worth mentioning is why these helicopters were created. The R22 was created to make helicopter flying more accessible to more people, hence the bare bones design to keep the operating cost low. I don't know why the Cabri was created, but it certainly wasn't for that reason. So its almost an apples to oranges comparison.
Absolutley a great point. I think the Cabri was just an evolution on the R22 for the same reasons! Thank you so much for watchin Joseph. I really appreciate it!
@@PilotDevin Personally I'd call the Cabri an evolution of the S300. The R44 Cadet is more of an evolved R22,...and a very nice ride I must say, as I flew one a couple months ago.
🇫🇷 Ok. The Cabri is certainly more up to date than the R22. The 3 bladed rotor is the cat's meow. It's what allows it to carry more weight. The "having to open" the door for Autorotations can easily be fixed by fabricating a plexiglass bubble, with coupla inches more clearance, cutting a hole in the door, and attaching the plastic bubble with a thin rubber gasket n rivets or glued/bonded in place. The Cabri is also waay more expensive than the R22, however, if your goal is just to fly, the R22 fills the bill, plus, parts n technicians are easy to find. The Cabri is a bit more luxurious. But me? For that kind of money I would look for a Bell 47, n probably find it for much cheaper, n it would come with the 6 cylinder Lycoming engine. The other helicopter you should look at is the Safari Helicopters. They are mini versions of the Bell 47's, and they have high "Cool factor", they just look Bad Ass. I'm ok with the R22's, that's what I'm learning on now... Thanks for your comparison, Devin. It's always cool to learn about new helicopters...
Thank you so much Dan. Great points. For the price your paying of the Cabri you would think the door thing would be an easy fix. That exposed tail boom on the bell 47 just makes me feel like something is left undone haha. Feels like its 90% complete. Thanks for the info!!
@@PilotDevin 🇫🇷 While the fenestron tail rotor is much safer, they also have the Notar system on bigger helicopters. While I agree that exposed tail rotors look unfinished, many helicopters, including military helicopters have exposed tail rotors, and these are huge choppers. On that note I have to add that propeller driven airplanes have exposed propellers. It's just the nature of the beast. While Fenestron tail rotors are much safer, they add weight, mechanical complexity n cost to the overall design. One cannot deny that the iconic UH-1 Hueys and Bell47's are Bad Ass helicopters. Take a look at the Safari Helicopters, The 400 (Bell 47 look alike) has a 26ft rotor and a 28gal fuel capacity. They also have a sleeker looking 500, and both are under 150K!!! Waay cheaper than the R22 n Cabri. You can build it yourself if you are so inclined, or have them build it for you, for an added cost. If you build it yourself, you can also get a repairman certificate, so that you can do all of your own maintenance n overhauls on your helicopter. I would love to see you do a comparison and/or an evaluation of these helicopters. To many aspiring pilots Cost is a Big factor. And another thing, these Safari Helicopters are made here, in the good ol' USA!
Bell 47 is a great option for those who are all about safety. Rotor system has a ridiculous amount of inertia. I saw a video of one that did a hovering auto, the guy did the auto to the ground, then picked it up, hopped over a 5ft fence, and put it back down, all with the energy left in the rotor system. Only big downside and a low-key reason why a lot of schools don't use them (other than their age) is they don't have a rotor brake. High inertia system + no rotor brake = takes literally 15-20 minutes to spin down.
Hi Devin, great video, like you I’ve flown both aircraft. I will always like the R22 because that’s the aircraft I did my first solo in and I’ve become comfortable with it. Mast bumping is a pilot error issue and that can be corrected with training. I have encountered ground resonance in the G2 on run ups and aborted the flight. Most ground resonance is a mechanical problem. The G2 has a lot of issues with sensors failing as well. The other problem with the G2 is because all your main instruments are on the one display if that display fails you lose most of your instruments. For me if I had to decide between the 2 aircraft it would be the R22 because of its purchase price and it’s simple design. But if I had an open cheque book it would be either a Bell 505 or 407.
Wow this is timely topic for me, who get helicopter pilot certificate in last month! My training was with R-22. I think flight training market is pretty much about cost. (including me, I'm not rich) As Devin says, R-22 derated its engine on purpose for longer mechanical life = lower maintenance cost. Second hand repair parts should be also much cheaper for R-22. Most of the superior points of Cabri G2 is great for fun/practical flight, but unnecessary for basic training purpose. So I think, in the flight school, R-22 will survive as before. But for helicopter to own or having fun with after getting certificate, you might want Cabri G2.
🇫🇷 Good video and good content, and I like the younger perspective. Keep it up - it's a grind to build a YT channel worth watching, but I think you're onto something if you stick with it. I'll be watching..
In regards to horsepower. Do you think maybe you could find out from an engineers perspective? Because this may give you some perspective. My Mitsubishi Pajero has a 6g74 engine. Which has the same engine as a Mitsubishi Magna. Although the both have a 6g74 engine. There are a few things internal and external that separate a significant amount of HP and Torque ratings including Software as well. Something to keep in mind.
this issue "mast bumping". its like a sign on your car dashboard," dont collide with solid objects". for gods sake, know your aircraft and then buy a rotorway, they are brilliant and cheaper.
I learned in the Enstrom, sad to hear they are going bankrupt. Good review, yes the Cabri is very much more modern, hard to compare with 40 year old technology. If I won the lottery, I would buy a 505.
I would be add a little to the discussion on performance so that you are not inadvertently misleading people. The engine is the same engine. There is no more "power available in reserve" in one over the other .You get the same 100% of the available power at the same altitude and temp in both aircraft because its the same engine. What is different in the aircraft is the gross weight envelope and other components that interact with the engine which limits and demands what power is required to maintain that performance. A derated engine is not physically derated in these aircraft. This is not true in all aircraft were power available is intentionally limited by a ECU or FADEC etc. to prolong engine life/ TBO or protect other components (XSMN, airframe etc.). In both the Cabri and the Robinson the limit is strictly in the POH limitations. Engines are derated for a variety of reasons but never to provide a safety cushion or more reserve. Generally, derating is done because of a limit of another component. In helicopters it is usually the transmission, mast or tail rotor components. The engine can produce more torque than can me handled by the transmissions or the masts. You can exceed the limit without drooping the rotor but will likely have now weakened the other components lifetime or airworthiness and thus a limit is stated. Torque on the airframe is also a major factor. The more power you demand the more twist on the airframe is possible which leads to metal/composite fatigue. The other is the TBO or recommended TBO, which makes sense. If you operate the engine at 100% all the time it will likely fatigue at a faster rate than if operated at 75% power overtime. In other cases derating an engine is done for environmental reasons, limiting noise etc. Finally engines are derated so that performance can be maintained at higher altitudes. An engine does not produce that same horsepower at differing altitudes and temperatures. The higher you go the less horsepower is available so a 180HP engine will not produce the same 180HP in less dense air, but the engine can generate up to that derated power when operating at POH altitude limits before you droop the rotor. If you just put a 135HP engine in than you would not have the higher altitude performance a 180HP engine provides with derated POH limitations. In the end a given engine doesn't know if it is in a Cabri, Robinson or a Cessna. You fly to the performance specs and limits because that's what the engineers determined along with the certifying body FAA, EASA etc. as the limits for safety, airframe/component wear and tear and environmental concerns. As a point of contention on this video, limit the "I have heard this or that", to what you know as fact. There is too much of the I heard this and that, that becomes folklore repeated and is just incorrect or not fully correct. These are great videos that can generate discussion and learning but if you don't know, just say I don't know, rather than I heard this or that. Have a definitive reference. Opinions are great and we can debate among ourselves on things of preference but other discussion points that are based on facts do not care about your opinion or mine. Anyways, any talk about flying is always fun and educational so keep at it.
Devin, nice presentation but as a 20000 hrs turbine helicopter pilot who flew over 40 years as a commercial pilot. After listening to to your presentation the biggest concern is the door needing to be opened for the CFI to roll of the throttle. My concern is LTE especially in a hover… as you well know a corrective action is to get rid of the torque by rolling the throttle to idle…… bad design ! The Cabri folks need to redesign that area and give the CFI a way to get that accomplished. In an emergency such as LTE, you have to react instantly you don’t have time to unlatch a door. Have a great career!
400 hrs in robinson, and yes unless doors off there is no room, unless bubble window doors in the robinson, and honestly for training purposes that does add a extra hazard not being able to move with ease. You did not bring up clock wise and counter clock wise difference in rotor direction, dont know why cabri hasnt been redone to the counter clock wise as most other us helicopters . I agree robinson was built and designed a long time ago,and it shows, cabri is better looking and more updated and the glass cockpit does make transition over to more advanced turbine helicopters easier ,what to look for quicker and easier . The cost up front is a difference but it really needs to be broken down to hourly cost. You are also new york based so im figuring the 22 cost at ur school is approx same here on long island 300 or so a hour, from a other youtuber pilotyellow ,who use as their primary helo the cabri i think they said its about 450 an hour ?not sure canadian or U.S. but 450 an hour is a lot, if u have that much then should rent 44 cadet, which goes for about that much. Viva Le France !
Great point!! If you are going to spend close to that amount of money you should honestly just be in a R44. It will give you much better return on value in many areas. I think Cabri will always have a clockwise rotating rotor system, I think it is a personal "screw you" to the counterclockwise companies lol
I believe the backwards spinning rotor (like the tail rotor design) is so that students who learn in the Cabri will have a more seamless transition into the EC 130, which is commonly used in the entry-level turbine tour business.
🇫🇷G2 all the way. Eng overhauling is same both but the 2200 is 6months/80k+ R22(12yr limit) or 3weeks/17k+ for G2(no calendar limit) so after the second OH the G2 is winning the price game.
If this were illustrated by walking around each aircraft, it would be more useful. As it is, I can compare published specs myself without spending half and hour looking at a talking head.
I think the R22 was an awesome helicopter when it first came out some forty years ago, but now they are relying on its heritage and not updating it. The G2 is a modern helicopter, electronic cockpit and engine management system. The 22 only had a two blade head, the G2 a three so potentially more inertia, so safer in autorotations. Lastly I prefer the proper two sticks of the G2.
G2 sounds like a winner over the number of improvements in comparison to R22. However form my perspective of European guy who drove different car brands and from all mechanics who I ever met. The French technology starting from motorcycles, cars, guns, tanks, up to such a simple devices like home heaters has been widely known as the worst, unreliable, unpredictably breaking, often beautifully designed but still a horrible peace of junk. These opinions were build since WW1 and WW2 up to present days. As always with their technology everything looks great in specifications but when it comes to real life it starts to break so often that at the end you have to be crazy(stupid) or very wealthy to buy something used. Example in general cars prices drop for more then 60% with the end of guaranty - think about that. No wonder why G2 has shorter overhaul time. If I was about to choose between 10 year old G2 and R22 with the same flight time and production year, I would choose Robinson. France has plenty of great inventions and products but not technology.
That is incredibly intresting! I have never thought about it like that and you have a perspective that I dont so that makes a lot of sense. I guess time will be the ultimate test to the quailty of the helicopter!
Others were more polite. To say it as it is: extremely superficial comparison with zero understanding. Maybe fly for 10 years before billing yourself as an expert.
With 1600 hours teaching in the Cabri... I've been in ground resonance once. The Cabri was designed as a trainer from the ground up. You can do autos with the door closed from left seat, it is just much easier to have the door on the string, the string is the same thing as opening a vent on the door, just larger. They also put in writing that the cabri cannot get unto LTE from vortex ring state of the tail rotor, nor from main rotor interference, it is however susceptible to weather veining. Plasma is just an electronic ignition, like a cars.. much smoother than a mag. Blades are weighted to it is a high inertia system. Hands down, as a trainer it beats the 22 in everything but cost. But... there are only 3 parts that can time out... engine, main transmission, and tail transmission. All others are on condition. Sensors and such do go out on them quite often, but not often enough to cause a problem, as parts can be overnighted.
Great breakdown John and now that I have been flying it consistently I completly agree that it is hands down the best trainer helicopter. I also have been in ground resonance only once, I learned a lot from it!!
Great videos. A small point... it's not the "Zero-360" it's the (letter) Oh-360, abbreviation for (horizontally) Opposed (cylinders). Keep on keeping on.
Great video comparison.
I'm a 65 y.o. male private pilot. No longer current. I have taken rides in a Bell 47, Bell 206 Jet Ranger, and an A-Star. My interest in helicopters was rekindled by the latest Robinison crash in Texas. In total there have been more than 1,600 accidents or incidents involving Robinson Helicopter aircraft, more than 425 of them fatal accidents resulting in more than 700 deaths. I am astounded that Robinson has not really made any major redesigns of its models. The mast always has seemed too tall and the rotor system on top looks too small and fragile for it's intended purpose. The Cabri clearly has a larger and more robust system. I get it, Robinson's are cheaper but they appear to lack any desire to make their helicopters safer. If I were looking to learn to fly a helicopter I would stay away from them. Even learning on a Robinson platform is prohibitively expensive in my opinion so no matter what you a going to pay an arm and a leg figuratively speaking. I think Cabri Helicopters is still trying to get the copter certified in the U.S. which will cost some dough. It is already certified in Europe.
If I could write a check for any amount I would learn in a Bell 206 Jet Ranger. Very safe and believe it or not more 206's have been sold than Robinsons. Then I would either buy a 206 or buy a MD-500. That is the best bang for the buck in my opiinion. Multiple blades, super stable, highly maneuverable, higly reliable, and turbine power. I thought about learing to fly helos after college but ended getting into other things. The best way still learn today in my opinion is to learn in the Army. They know what they are doing with helicopter training. And, I don't think you need to have a college degree.
Wow! Thank you so much for this! I loved reading your research on Robinson Crash statistics. And even though it does seem extremely dangerous due to the number of crashes and fatalities, you have to compare it to the number of safe flight hours flown. And whatever that crash rate percentage is.... is what they are willing to accept. I have absolutely no clue what it is but I imagine it's far less than 1 percent and then the economic value you get from the design is very high so it's definitely a needle you have to tread carefully. Thank you for the extremely engaging and stimulating comment! I really appreciate you being here.
The reason the mast is high is to mitigate mast bumping.
It doesn’t work. The damn things kill more people than any other bird!
The Robbinson helicopters are the most popular in the world so crash rate is a more important statistic than overall numbers. Also the bell 206 has the same rotor design as robbinson, its just heavier making less likely to get into mast bumping, the Carbri has a fully articulated making a safer rotor design, the max winds it can fly in is the main benefit in the 206 since it's much heavier than both.
@@Bren39The height of the rotor head is an aerodynamic factor mainly. Don't remember why, some aeronautical engineer or instructor can explain it.
This guy deserves more subscribers!
🇫🇷 Thank you for the informative and encouraging videos! I’m planning to attend Mauna Loa Helos and your vids have been a major part of that decision.
Hey Mariner! Congratulations! I hope you enjoy your experience and stay in touch. I look forward to your journey!
Great work Devin, very interesting comparison and safe flying mate from Australia
Awesome, thank you so much!!
Great video well documented ! Many thanks
My pleasure!
Sad you're leaving but happy for you and I'm excited to witness your journey. This video is really fun and so informative. You guys just were enjoying yourself! Really cool
Thank you so much man. I really appreciate you and everything you have to say. I wish you all the luck and success on your path!
Another great video Devin.. I just discovered your channel and have subscribed. I'm just an RC heli pilot and a helicopter enthusiast, but i've watched a lot of vids about real helicopters. Concerning the ground resonance problem with the fully articulated rotor.. I undertstand that Cabri has some kind of arrangement whereby the skids are not directly attached to the body of the craft to counteract ground resonance to some extent at least.
Hey man thank you so much for subscribing! So glad to have you here. Yes that is my understanding as well. There is something (and I'm not exactly sure how it works) but something to prevent a shockwave traveling from the skids up into the fuselage and then into the rotor. As I fly it more I will learn more about that system but seems like a sound design.
Would love to see a video like this of the 22 and 269/300
🇫🇷 keep grinding dude. Vids are awesome.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that!!
Thank you for your enthousiastic, complete and fair video!
I've done my things in avation (accountable manager of a flying school and CEO of a small fleet), but all just fixed wing. Alas.
Helis, however, have allways been pulling & tickling. Here in Europe (The Netherlands) flying is very expensive and heli flying almost unaffordable. Regulations (ICAO JAR-FCL) are extremely strict. To me in the USA flying is almost free, regulations (FAA) less strict and lots of space there in the circuits too.
I understand (theoretically) how a heli works, but apart from from just holding the stick of a Bell Jet Ranger for 30 minutes during an overland my experience is really zero. I am orientating a bit for some lessons at R22 vs R44 vs Cabri2. Just to try & taste the fun. Here the Cabri hourly is priced equal or lower than the R22 (I will choose for the best future, not the cheapest).
I understand why the hourly price is low despite the high selling price. The hourly cost of the heli is set, apart from maintenance & variable cost, for a big part by the TBO (so too the remaining value at the balance at the end, when selling the heli). The Cabri can fly completely and theoretically on condition, the R22 (engine and airframe) can be thrown away after 12 years/2200 hrs. John Simpson below explains this very well.
I'm used to these calculations having been fleet owner. Maybe interesting: we (the first in the country I am proud to say) bought 3 Diamond DA40 (2 x VFR, 1 x IFR, night-VFR isn't allowed here) and one twin DA42 to replace some Pipers and Cessnas. Those DA40's and DA42 are diesel (and JetA1) airplanes and proved to be much more reliable, safe and economic to operate than the old Lycoming stuff. You can compare it very well I suppose with the Cabri vs the R22. Apart from the lycoming. No bringing in the plane for small inspections, but just connect it via the internet directly to the factory for a remote diagnosis with running engine and reading out the logs of engine, gearbox and soms plane sensors. The diesel engine needs a gearbox anyway. Like a heli.
I just mentioned this, because a diesel engine seems ideal for a heli. I think. It loves to rev at a low steady RPM (better gearbox ratio), has tons of torque, is light in weight (!) and uses very few cheap fuel. Maybe in the future? I know, certification is a lang and expensive proces.
But, my question. I actually allready (in my mind) made my choice. But most USA choppers (as Robinson) turn counterclockwise, as European (and Russian) ones turn clockwise. For me that would mean (in a Cabri) adding right rudder when applying power (or torque), exactly as I am used to in most (if not all, single engine) fixed wing planes. That comes naturally. Another point is, there are less Cabris available than R22 or R44 (those schools first will have to burn their R's, so: how hard important is conversion from Counter- to Clockwise vv.
I noticed, if I am right, that the first part of practical Heli training is spent learning the right coordination. And being sensiteve to the controls. For the latter, just maybe I'm lucky, I always fly with just two fingers. I learnes my lesson almost the very hard way, when flying a nasty french plane with a tendency to unexpectly spin (needing an exactly opposite and very fast pilot's reaction to recover). I almost fell back to my training habits and did the wrong thing (for this plane). Almost, otherwise I would have writting my reaction/question. But I then found out how deep one's first training kreeps into one's genes.
Fully articulated rotor system all day long they are the best and safest Enstrom are back in business now
Great Video!!!! I would love to fly a Cabri!! If i had all the money in the world i would own .. a cabri and MD530🇫🇷🇺🇸
You and me both!
Whether mast bumping is pilot error or not, id rather avoid any heli that even with a pilots mishap, is capable of slicing the tail boom clean off n causing a long drawn out most terrifying certain death that u know is coming and u cannot avoid it. Mast bumping has killed SO many of whom made a very quick mistake of a low g push, then free falled in the cabin to their death within seconds. No aircraft or any transport vehicle should have the ability to self destruct, especialy so easily. Id take the Cabri.
So very well put. I would not even ride in a Robinson, but I'm a fixed wing pilot anyway. It would be the wonderful Hughes 269/300 if it were my skin. That's for sure!!
🇫🇷 I got a lot from this video, thanks
🇫🇷 1. I definitely would not buy one of these if I had a blank check it would most like be a MD 2. I believe you nailed this video man couldn’t agree more you are doing amazing
Thank you so much Karson. I always look forward to your comments!!
Man that made my day u are a huge inspiration I can wait to start flying I should be going to school in 5 months
Fair comparison. I would only say that the R22 was designed 50 years ago. Think of comparing a 50 year old car to new one in terms of comfort and technology. As you do point out, mechanical design learns and improves (hopefully) over time as it should. It would be quite disappointing if the Cabri was not superior in many ways. That the R22 is still popular and even in a comparison such as this is a testament to how great of a design it was/is.
Cabri was 1980, first flown 1992/3 look at the Designer and who he worked for..
great videos ,good job man
That means a ton! Thanks man!
French flag, I made it! Here's a point of view from the lowest hour guy there is. I only have about five hours, four in an R-22, and one in an R-44. Never been in a Cabri. But just looking at the videos I know I would prefer it to the 22 for the extra room, higher inertia rotor, a normal looking mast, normal cyclic and more comprehensive instruments. The 22 fuselage is suspended from a much higher point giving the aircraft an unnatural pendular feel. I noticed the difference immediately in the 44 which felt worlds better. It has the same mast but it seems to work better in that larger aircraft. On my very last lesson I was actually able to straight and level, change altitude and use the instruments, something I could not do in the 22. Maybe you could drop a quick note here with a thumbnail for comparing Cabri vs R-44 because I love that machine. Also I've been told R-22 is a good training heli precisely because it's small and squirrelly. Graduating to bigger & better machines becomes easier, I haven't experienced it that far ahead though. Looking for your thoughts. Great video, keep em coming!
From what I understand pretty well any Airbus/ Eurocopter mechanic can work on a Cabri, Now Robinson parts are everywhere.
Enjoyed the video. However, the performance section should include hover performance:
For instance, the G2 weighs more empty than the r22. This makes a huge difference at altitude. If both aircraft were loaded at normal “flight training weights (two 180lb pilots and 2.5 hours of fuel) the G2 In ground effect hover is 5500’ pressure altitude at 20 degrees C.
The R22 at max gross weight of 1370lbs can hover at 8000’ pressure altitude at 20 degrees C.
My home field is at 5622’ MSL, so the G2 wouldn’t even be able to hover here at 1400lbs in a training set-up. The R22 has a much bigger power margin at altitude.
great comparison, merci ! 🇫🇷
French Flag :D Have only flown Robinsons, but would so love to try the Cabri sometime. If I had a preference, even though not having flown one, I think would prefer to teach in the Cabri, the safety alone, make it the better choice. My only concern is different spin of the main rotor, clockwise verse counter clockwise.
French flag great video very very good
H125, H130, Bell 505 or AW109 that it all the best and happy new year
Happy new year!
great helicopter
They both are!!
🇫🇷 great videos
Glad you like them!
🇫🇷 I have a decent amount of time in both. Got my PPL in the Cabri then switched to the R22. I liked all of the Cabri’s features, but the cost per hour got to be a lot.
I completly agree with this. But is there a peice to be paid on safety and on your life? and is it worth paying more for that 3 bladed rotor system. Is it going to make a diffrence?
31:43 🇫🇷 1) I don’t know enough to answer, 2) G2 for the safety and style!
The Cabri is the one that you're increasingly likely to see in the air, The R22 however is far more likely to be a smoking wreck in pieces on the ground.
Robinsons as a whole are an accident prone mess. I see and hear about more crashes of R44s and R22s more than literally every other helicopter. The boom connected to the main rotor is a design flow for sure
The 3 bladed rotor means the G2 wins hands down, end of, plenty of R22 mast bumping and killing folk.
I tend to agree
Its funny, listening to this is like listening to someone compare a Honda Civic from 1979 to a Honda Civic from 2016.
In the end though, the view from the air is the same, so why would I pay more for it?
Bells and whistles don't impress me, especially given that my eyes are looking outside for the vast majority of the flight.
Now, I've never flown the Cabri as the nearest one is about $100 bucks more per hour than the 22 and that's just too much for what is essentially just another two seat piston. I have flown a 300, 500 and Enstrom though and I just prefer the feel of a two-bladed rotor. Fully-articulated rotors just don't feel as responsive as semi-ridged ones,...and I love how sensitive the 22's controls are. Sure that makes it more hair raising for an instructor, but its also what makes it so much fun to fly.
Safety features are not a sell for me, partly because my first car didn't even have seat belts (or any noticable safety features for that matter) so that stuff just isn't all that important to me (I'm not as obsessed with crashing as a lot of the younger generation seems to be), but also because I've never felt not safe in the 22.
So yeah, I prefer the 22. Its partly nostalgia as I got my wings in one, but I also have 500 solo hours in them and they are just fun as all Hell to fly!
If money were no object I would still want to own a 22 simply because I love flying it, but sitting across from it in my hangar (right next to my silver 1975 Countach) would be a Bell 222, as it is the sexiest helicopter design, retractable gear is awesome, and those two incredibly massive blades never cease to leave me in awe everytime I see them!🇨🇵
This was so fun to read. Thank you for saying this. This is why I made this channel. I love talking helicopter stuff with helicopter people. I had never heard of the Bell 222. I just looked it up. That is an insane helicopter!
🟦⬜🟥
1: I would get a H125 B3e or H135 for reasonable private flying
2: My winner between R22 and Cabri G2 is clearly the Cabri G2 hands down, because as you said a lot has been made to improve over the R22 flaws. No offense toward the R22, let's not forget that the R22 was not originally designed to be a trainer. One downside to the Cabri G2 however is that the rotor blades are low to the ground, the rotor is pretty much the same height that you can find on ultralight helicopters.
Cheers !
... from France !
Although in a completely different class in terms of capabilities and performance, the upcoming Hill HX50 is not that far away in price (£495k) from the Cabri, and about the same as a R44 for the base model. I would love to see a comparison video about that helicopter (VS R44, R66, 505, MD500, etc.), and discussion around how you think it will impact the helicopter industry. They already have more than 500 pre-orders, with the first deliveries expected in 2024. If the HX50 performs as expected, it looks like it will make a huge impact on the personal helicopter world. I would definitely appreciate your (and others) analysis. I don't think I would want to own serial #001, but >serial #400 should be relatively safe, as folks start getting hours under their belts and they make any adjustments required. It's strange to me that I don't see more helicopter folks covering the HX50, but I think that's going to change, as the Hill Helicopter team seems to be on a roll. They have also focused on reducing ongoing ownership OPEX maintenance and insurance cost as well. Very exciting for non-commercial, personal applications! (The commercial, certified version is supposed to come out a couple years later)
might make a video covering thing! thanks for the idea
How are those Hill Helicopter 500 pre-orders coming along ? Oh right we still have 2 months left of 2023 😂. Can you say PIPE DREAM?
@@Jimmyjames11111 Are you ignorant of the fact that Hill Helicopters now have orders for almost 1,000 HX50 + HC50??? They release update videos every month, and share them on RUclips. The whole project is on schedule. They're working on their 8th full testing body. They have demonstrated the flight electronics/displays. They have the geartrain developed. They should be able to assemble an engine soon... I guess you're just a hater?
@@DanielShipley Hill is the worlds most expensive "Kickstarter"* project. You still look relatively young, so if you bought one today, you might get it in 3~5 years. But so far they haven't even powered up the engine or tested the transmission or rotors. Hill said they would not deliver any helicopters until they had 3 flying prototypes with over 1000 of flight testing hours on each one. As for the price... we'll have to see. The HC50 is nearing $1 million which wont be shipping for about 6 years (maybe). Remember that the R-22 was named as such because Frank Robinson (the "R") was targeting the price to be $22,000 at introduction. 3 years later the first ones sold for double that and quickly grew to well over $66k in about a year.
Are you ignorant of the fact that the HX50 is a KIT that requires the owner to build 51% of it !? Kit built aircraft are licensed as Experimental Aircraft in the US, with interesting restrictions.
*FYI: Historically, the majority of all "Kickstarter" product fail.
@@shazam6274 LOL, I don't think there's any apt comparison of Hill Helicopters, which has raised tens of millions of $$ in pre-orders, has >50 employees, has tens of thousands of square feet of office and production space, and shown complete airframes, with a measly Kickstarter project. Comparing them to an early version of Tesla would be more accurate.
You can't "buy a HX50 today". You can only pre-order, and based on the now huge backlog of orders, yes it may be 3-5 years before receiving one. If you wanted one sooner, you would have to have ordered sooner. Everyone who has pre-ordered has a locked in price & S/N, well below $1M, even for the HC50 (commercial/non-experimental version of the HX50). It has been widely discussed that the price would be increasing as Hill approaches delivery. Even at $1M, the HC50 would be less than half the cost of its competitors, with better performance/features. The HX50 really doesn't have any direct competitors in the market. The R66 would be closest in price, and is not experimental, but doesn't have the performance, features, or size.
Are you ignorant that everyone who pre-orders the HX50 signs a contract with respect to what they're buying? Obviously it's clear, everywhere, that it's built under experimental rules. That's the whole reason there's two versions of the same helicopter: one built for personal ownership at minimal cost under experimental rules, and one that's for commercial use. Perhaps your ignorant that the entire idea of the HX50, from the start, was to minimize cost by benefitting from the experimental classification, among other strategies (such as vertical integration, group insurance, etc.)? I'm not aware of any significant restrictions on experimental aircraft for private owners, except on operation over densely populated areas until approved by an Administrator. Additionally, you compare the final phase of build of the HX50 with a "KIT", which suggests your lack of understanding of the build process, whereby the owner completes final assembly of major components under expert supervision, at the factory, within ~1 week.
You seem convinced Hill Helicopters will fail. Well, so far, their rise has been meteoric. Time will tell. For the benefit of general aviation, which has been in a slow death spiral due to ever increasing cost and stagnation in design, I hope they are successful in delivering their new and invigorating products to the market.
One thing worth mentioning is why these helicopters were created. The R22 was created to make helicopter flying more accessible to more people, hence the bare bones design to keep the operating cost low. I don't know why the Cabri was created, but it certainly wasn't for that reason. So its almost an apples to oranges comparison.
Absolutley a great point. I think the Cabri was just an evolution on the R22 for the same reasons! Thank you so much for watchin Joseph. I really appreciate it!
@@PilotDevin Personally I'd call the Cabri an evolution of the S300. The R44 Cadet is more of an evolved R22,...and a very nice ride I must say, as I flew one a couple months ago.
R22 was NEVER designed to be a trainer, never,!! Per Frank D. Robinson!!
@@scotabot7826 Yeah, that's why its so much more fun to fly than an S300, or Enstrom 280.
🇫🇷 Ok.
The Cabri is certainly more up to date than the R22. The 3 bladed rotor is the cat's meow. It's what allows it to carry more weight. The "having to open" the door for Autorotations can easily be fixed by fabricating a plexiglass
bubble, with coupla inches more clearance, cutting a hole in the door, and attaching the plastic bubble with a thin rubber gasket n rivets or glued/bonded in place. The Cabri is also waay more expensive than the R22, however, if your goal is just to fly, the R22 fills the bill, plus, parts n technicians are easy to find. The Cabri is a bit more luxurious.
But me? For that kind of money I would look for a Bell 47, n probably find it for much cheaper, n it would come with the 6 cylinder
Lycoming engine. The other helicopter you should look at is the Safari Helicopters. They are mini versions of the Bell 47's, and they have high "Cool factor", they just look
Bad Ass. I'm ok with the R22's, that's what I'm learning on now...
Thanks for your comparison, Devin. It's always cool to learn about new helicopters...
Thank you so much Dan. Great points. For the price your paying of the Cabri you would think the door thing would be an easy fix. That exposed tail boom on the bell 47 just makes me feel like something is left undone haha. Feels like its 90% complete. Thanks for the info!!
@@PilotDevin 🇫🇷
While the fenestron tail rotor is much safer, they also have the Notar system on bigger helicopters. While I agree that exposed tail rotors look unfinished, many helicopters, including military helicopters have exposed tail rotors, and these are huge choppers. On
that note I have to add that propeller driven airplanes have exposed propellers. It's just the nature of the beast. While Fenestron tail rotors are much safer, they add weight, mechanical complexity n cost to the overall design. One cannot deny that the iconic UH-1 Hueys and Bell47's are Bad Ass helicopters. Take a look at the Safari Helicopters, The 400 (Bell 47 look alike) has a 26ft rotor and a 28gal fuel capacity. They also have a sleeker looking 500, and both are under 150K!!! Waay cheaper than the R22 n Cabri. You can build it yourself if you are so inclined, or have them build it for you, for an added cost.
If you build it yourself, you can also get a repairman certificate, so that you can do all of your own maintenance n overhauls on your helicopter. I would love to see you do a comparison and/or an evaluation of these
helicopters. To many aspiring pilots Cost is a
Big factor. And another thing, these Safari Helicopters are made here, in the good ol' USA!
Bell 47 is a great option for those who are all about safety. Rotor system has a ridiculous amount of inertia. I saw a video of one that did a hovering auto, the guy did the auto to the ground, then picked it up, hopped over a 5ft fence, and put it back down, all with the energy left in the rotor system. Only big downside and a low-key reason why a lot of schools don't use them (other than their age) is they don't have a rotor brake. High inertia system + no rotor brake = takes literally 15-20 minutes to spin down.
🇫🇷 Is it a really big deal switching from counter to clockwise system or is it a non issue?
Great question and I think I will make avideo on it but no. It was pretty much non eventful lol. A bit weird at the start but mostly unproblematic!
Hi Devin, great video, like you I’ve flown both aircraft. I will always like the R22 because that’s the aircraft I did my first solo in and I’ve become comfortable with it. Mast bumping is a pilot error issue and that can be corrected with training. I have encountered ground resonance in the G2 on run ups and aborted the flight. Most ground resonance is a mechanical problem. The G2 has a lot of issues with sensors failing as well. The other problem with the G2 is because all your main instruments are on the one display if that display fails you lose most of your instruments. For me if I had to decide between the 2 aircraft it would be the R22 because of its purchase price and it’s simple design. But if I had an open cheque book it would be either a Bell 505 or 407.
top marks
Wow this is timely topic for me, who get helicopter pilot certificate in last month! My training was with R-22.
I think flight training market is pretty much about cost. (including me, I'm not rich)
As Devin says, R-22 derated its engine on purpose for longer mechanical life = lower maintenance cost.
Second hand repair parts should be also much cheaper for R-22.
Most of the superior points of Cabri G2 is great for fun/practical flight, but unnecessary for basic training purpose.
So I think, in the flight school, R-22 will survive as before.
But for helicopter to own or having fun with after getting certificate, you might want Cabri G2.
Completely agree and couldn't have said it better myself!
🇫🇷 Good video and good content, and I like the younger perspective. Keep it up - it's a grind to build a YT channel worth watching, but I think you're onto something if you stick with it. I'll be watching..
Means a lot thank you!!!
I really hate the Robinson T-Bar cyclic and semi rigid 2 bladed m/r. Cabri wins hands down in my book.
I would fly 520 N Notar
I can't help it, but every time I see one of those helicopters I'm looking for the guy with the remote control 🤔
In regards to horsepower. Do you think maybe you could find out from an engineers perspective? Because this may give you some perspective. My Mitsubishi Pajero has a 6g74 engine. Which has the same engine as a Mitsubishi Magna. Although the both have a 6g74 engine. There are a few things internal and external that separate a significant amount of HP and Torque ratings including Software as well. Something to keep in mind.
🇫🇷 French kiss, French fries, French cheese, and French Cabri : all the best ! 😁
I heard engines in the r22 are derated to allow the engine to live until overhaul.
this issue "mast bumping". its like a sign on your car dashboard," dont collide with solid objects". for gods sake, know your aircraft and then buy a rotorway, they are brilliant and cheaper.
The baggage compartment in G2 looks like it can be converted into a 3rd seat for a passenger.
🇫🇷 and between the two a g2 …money no object bell 429,407, Astar b3
I learned in the Enstrom, sad to hear they are going bankrupt. Good review, yes the Cabri is very much more modern, hard to compare with 40 year old technology. If I won the lottery, I would buy a 505.
The 505's are incredibly nice and that turbine power is awesome. What color would you pick?
@@PilotDevin Have you seen the video of the 505 painted in candy cane colors? I like it. Looks happy :)
Sorry for the typos :(
"I have spent a lot of time looking at it and touching it"
🇫🇷1 - yes, G2 - Bell 206.2) G2
I would be add a little to the discussion on performance so that you are not inadvertently misleading people. The engine is the same engine. There is no more "power available in reserve" in one over the other .You get the same 100% of the available power at the same altitude and temp in both aircraft because its the same engine. What is different in the aircraft is the gross weight envelope and other components that interact with the engine which limits and demands what power is required to maintain that performance. A derated engine is not physically derated in these aircraft. This is not true in all aircraft were power available is intentionally limited by a ECU or FADEC etc. to prolong engine life/ TBO or protect other components (XSMN, airframe etc.). In both the Cabri and the Robinson the limit is strictly in the POH limitations. Engines are derated for a variety of reasons but never to provide a safety cushion or more reserve. Generally, derating is done because of a limit of another component. In helicopters it is usually the transmission, mast or tail rotor components. The engine can produce more torque than can me handled by the transmissions or the masts. You can exceed the limit without drooping the rotor but will likely have now weakened the other components lifetime or airworthiness and thus a limit is stated. Torque on the airframe is also a major factor. The more power you demand the more twist on the airframe is possible which leads to metal/composite fatigue. The other is the TBO or recommended TBO, which makes sense. If you operate the engine at 100% all the time it will likely fatigue at a faster rate than if operated at 75% power overtime. In other cases derating an engine is done for environmental reasons, limiting noise etc. Finally engines are derated so that performance can be maintained at higher altitudes. An engine does not produce that same horsepower at differing altitudes and temperatures. The higher you go the less horsepower is available so a 180HP engine will not produce the same 180HP in less dense air, but the engine can generate up to that derated power when operating at POH altitude limits before you droop the rotor. If you just put a 135HP engine in than you would not have the higher altitude performance a 180HP engine provides with derated POH limitations. In the end a given engine doesn't know if it is in a Cabri, Robinson or a Cessna. You fly to the performance specs and limits because that's what the engineers determined along with the certifying body FAA, EASA etc. as the limits for safety, airframe/component wear and tear and environmental concerns. As a point of contention on this video, limit the "I have heard this or that", to what you know as fact. There is too much of the I heard this and that, that becomes folklore repeated and is just incorrect or not fully correct. These are great videos that can generate discussion and learning but if you don't know, just say I don't know, rather than I heard this or that. Have a definitive reference. Opinions are great and we can debate among ourselves on things of preference but other discussion points that are based on facts do not care about your opinion or mine. Anyways, any talk about flying is always fun and educational so keep at it.
What do you mean by "droop the rotor?"
Devin, nice presentation but as a 20000 hrs turbine helicopter pilot who flew over 40 years as a commercial pilot. After listening to to your presentation the biggest concern is the door needing to be opened for the CFI to roll of the throttle. My concern is LTE especially in a hover… as you well know a corrective action is to get rid of the torque by rolling the throttle to idle…… bad design ! The Cabri folks need to redesign that area and give the CFI a way to get that accomplished. In an emergency such as LTE, you have to react instantly you don’t have time to unlatch a door. Have a great career!
400 hrs in robinson, and yes unless doors off there is no room, unless bubble window doors in the robinson, and honestly for training purposes that does add a extra hazard not being able to move with ease. You did not bring up clock wise and counter clock wise difference in rotor direction, dont know why cabri hasnt been redone to the counter clock wise as most other us helicopters . I agree robinson was built and designed a long time ago,and it shows, cabri is better looking and more updated and the glass cockpit does make transition over to more advanced turbine helicopters easier ,what to look for quicker and easier . The cost up front is a difference but it really needs to be broken down to hourly cost. You are also new york based so im figuring the 22 cost at ur school is approx same here on long island 300 or so a hour, from a other youtuber pilotyellow ,who use as their primary helo the cabri i think they said its about 450 an hour ?not sure canadian or U.S. but 450 an hour is a lot, if u have that much then should rent 44 cadet, which goes for about that much. Viva Le France !
Great point!! If you are going to spend close to that amount of money you should honestly just be in a R44. It will give you much better return on value in many areas. I think Cabri will always have a clockwise rotating rotor system, I think it is a personal "screw you" to the counterclockwise companies lol
I believe the backwards spinning rotor (like the tail rotor design) is so that students who learn in the Cabri will have a more seamless transition into the EC 130, which is commonly used in the entry-level turbine tour business.
🇫🇷G2 all the way. Eng overhauling is same both but the 2200 is 6months/80k+ R22(12yr limit) or 3weeks/17k+ for G2(no calendar limit) so after the second OH the G2 is winning the price game.
🇫🇷 G2 for the WIN
0:20 "I think im gonna try and say Cubree in this video but I have flown the Cabri" 🤔
Why the British Union flag on the G2? It's a totally French chopper.
If this were illustrated by walking around each aircraft, it would be more useful. As it is, I can compare published specs myself without spending half and hour looking at a talking head.
Had to train in a 22. I dont like them. I dont like flying something i can almost dead lift. Way too light
Cabri!!!!! 🔵⚪🔴 Vive la France.
I think the R22 was an awesome helicopter when it first came out some forty years ago, but now they are relying on its heritage and not updating it. The G2 is a modern helicopter, electronic cockpit and engine management system. The 22 only had a two blade head, the G2 a three so potentially more inertia, so safer in autorotations. Lastly I prefer the proper two sticks of the G2.
Cabri designed in 1980 first flown early 90's.. they have just updated it as they should.
🇫🇷. 1 yes
G2 sounds like a winner over the number of improvements in comparison to R22. However form my perspective of European guy who drove different car brands and from all mechanics who I ever met. The French technology starting from motorcycles, cars, guns, tanks, up to such a simple devices like home heaters has been widely known as the worst, unreliable, unpredictably breaking, often beautifully designed but still a horrible peace of junk. These opinions were build since WW1 and WW2 up to present days. As always with their technology everything looks great in specifications but when it comes to real life it starts to break so often that at the end you have to be crazy(stupid) or very wealthy to buy something used. Example in general cars prices drop for more then 60% with the end of guaranty - think about that. No wonder why G2 has shorter overhaul time. If I was about to choose between 10 year old G2 and R22 with the same flight time and production year, I would choose Robinson. France has plenty of great inventions and products but not technology.
That is incredibly intresting! I have never thought about it like that and you have a perspective that I dont so that makes a lot of sense. I guess time will be the ultimate test to the quailty of the helicopter!
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🇨🇵. Bell 47 or Hughes 500
MD530 $2,200,000 woohoo
Others were more polite. To say it as it is: extremely superficial comparison with zero understanding. Maybe fly for 10 years before billing yourself as an expert.
🇫🇷 G2 best
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we know the Answer
I choose the Boeing AH-64. 😂😂😂
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Haha thanks!!
The R22 was NEVER designed to be a trainer, Never, per Mr Robinson. Popularity for the R22 is only because of economics
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Please don't fly Robinsons anymore. They just crash.
French flag...Cabri wins
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