Yuval Noah Harari and Tristan Harris interviewed by Wired
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- Опубликовано: 10 июн 2024
- Yuval Noah Harari and Tristan Harris are interviewed by Wired's editor-in-chief, Nicholas Thompson.
Transcript of conversation: www.wired.com/story/artificia...
Ironically I am watching this as a result of an algorithm-based binge session
Came here to post this...
Hmmmmm
Hello fellow supercomputer hacked robots ✌
Ironically...for sure.
and did you think your time was well spent? I guess if you had learned meaningful ideas and have been able to apply that into your life, it was.
haTrang How would I know?
At around 37:00 they talk about how the algorithms of social media companies could be used in our favor: to teach us the skills we want to learn, recommend friends with similar interests, point out our weaknesses, etc. That sounds amazing. It even sounds like an awesome business model for the social media companies. I would be willing to may a substantial amount of money each month for a RUclips that helps me become the person I want to be.
Indeed, it would be nice to be able to tweak the algorithms which suggest videos, in order to improve yourself, strengthen your skills, etc.
That is what Skill Share is for...
That would be awesome! Being able to communicate with the algo is crucial: "I would like more of this... less of this.." but I guess it goes against the AD companies business model.
You have to realize that not all humans want the same things! For example, not all people are interested in constantly learning new skills or knowledge. You're generalizing your own interests onto others. I'd say the vast majority of humans simply wants to share or watch gossip to feel better about themselves, they want to be distracted from their everyday lives, watch reality TV or be exposed to content that they already agree with and feel good. For example, a religious extremist would have the highest utility (happiness, and thus, willingness to pay, or view ads!) if she is recommended the religious verses, sermons, content, or friends that already agree 100% with her. So your proposal wouldn't work as a business idea, because learning only takes place when we feel uncomfortable and challenged. But the majority of average humans aren't willing to stick around when they're being challenged like that, so then the social media platforms can't make any advertisement money off of us.
Also, how do you define 'learning''? How do you define the ''weaknesses'' to be pointed out? A value in the liberal West, such as tolerance and acceptance of trans or gays, is a corrupt ''weakness'' in an Islamic society. Should the social media platform be seeded with values of the West? Or with values from the local country, like the Islamic Regime of Iran? The Communist Party in China? At the end of the day, we must value the individual above any government-endorsed ideology.
You missed the part where we are hackable animals. Think psychographic targeting and the weaponization of data to sway elections. Then connect the two.
Among all the talks Harari did since the launch of his last book, I found this to be the most interesting, most tend to simplify the issues, this one gave more pragmatic points of view and perspectives on the book's issues. More talks with AI professionals would be greatly appreciated Yuval!
Fantastic discussion facilitated in a very thoughtful and clear way by Nicholas Thompson. These guys are helping humanity pave the way to a better future.
Huahuahuahahauua! yeah right.
Seek real truth my brother. God-created you perfectly to be a vessel unto others. Therefore we can do great things on our own also..this man is a lie.
Totally agree 👍
Such an interesting video. Thank you very much Professor Yuval Noah Harari, your books have been an inspiration for me to study history at the university.
@அபிலாஷ் வாஸுதேவன் avan Italian . Playlist paaru
I love that Tristian uses "human animal" expression :) Great interview, great minds there! Thanks
*Tristan
Watching this video taught me that according to Yuval Noah Harari, we are *Yuman* *Beans!*
*_Thank you gentlemen for the informative discussions._*
*_I'm a Chinese freedom advocate and I used to naively believe that the internet age means more transparency, more empowerment of the ordinary people. As I believed that the internet would make it harder for authoritarian regimes and big businesses to silence individuals and keep the dictators’ dirt under the carpet._*
*_However, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) regime’s success in total internet surveillance means that Chinese individuals’ voices are not better heard. On the contrary, the CCP regime has used anonymity on the internet to make the world a more opaque, less transparent, more dangerous place._*
*_Use RUclips as an example, the ratio of Chinese language videos critical of the CCP's human rights record & expansionist agenda vs CCP's own propaganda videos (disguised as "casual RUclipsr's account") is about 1 to 100. Some CCP's misinformation accounts on RUclips upload a new video every few minutes, and upload the same misinformation video under different sensational titles to several accounts within the same hour, in order to achieve the “drowning dissenting voices” effect, with great success. The CCP also use some of the methods already mentioned by Mr Harris to boost its own propaganda videos’ view counts and cheat algorithms._*
*_The CCP's aim is to eventually create confusion, sow social division and mistrust in all liberal democracies by massaging the idea that “democracy is hypocritical, full of dark secrets, and hidden discrimination, your vote is useless” into its audience’s head. (At this stage its focus is Taiwan, New Zealand, Australia… some of its neighbouring democratic “test laboratory”). So for anyone who loves freedom and cares about the survival of the liberal democratic ideal, we must think about how to protect our fragile liberty and democracy in this dangerous times. We need to protect democracy using technological, legislative, political means. We need to do it with a great sense of urgency._*
win winwin As a New Zealander and an Australian dual citizen we all need our own AI agents that understand how we are influenced by our informational overlords.The Data Lords must Pay more for access to my attention.
A new data valuation framework is required that is biosphere based (at a minimum) then we have a new opportunity to build distributed capitalism.
Your post is extremely important and I agree with your sense of urgency. The Chinese social credit scoring system is also deeply concerning to anyone who cares about liberty. It's about time western democracies woke up and focused more on cyber threats and less on conventional ones. Unfortunately, many of our politicians are not up to the challenge.
I understand you. I was grown up in communist Czechoslovakia. So I know exactly what you are talking about. Freedom and democratic societies are under serious attack and I do not see any major politician in a west nowadays address those important issues (unfortunately).
Quantum processing will allow for complete internet privacy with unbreakable encryption. Surveillance will be impossible, so the CCP won't have this leverage much longer. In general, I tend to think Harari has gained attention - weather he realizes it or not - by stoking fears. His dire warning about being "hacked" by algorithms ignores how these algorithms are designed to be trained by user preferences. RUclips, Google ads and Google newsfeed, for example, all operate according to choices/preferences the user makes. Stirring up fear can be a bit manipulative. There's always plenty to be concerned with, like gene editing being exploited by the wealthy (I assume Harari discusses this, but have yet to hear him mention it). People may like how Harari communicates, but none of these concerns are new insights for anyone paying attention. I read about CRISPR years ago when the first peer reviewed research was published, and it was immediately obvious how it might play out in a world with great wealth disparity. There's nothing new here, just the latest forms of fear and cynicism that pique our pessimistic wiring evolved over millions of years spent anticipating all variety of troubles.
I think what we need is a multi-nation west-created "manhattan project" type situation, where our finest minds in the field can collaborate in a big projects across boarders, not reporting to any one government, for the sake of all of humanity.
How is Australia (Or my country, Sweden) going to match the Resources / Capacities / Ethics of players like China?
And lets say you catch China red-handed, then what? You cant exactly take them to task. No, in my mind we need something like a functioning UN (unlike the old thing), perhaps armed with a mission statement of prosperity for all and military grade AI power to defend us.
Perhaps base it on countries that fit a certain ethics consideration and expand from there. Hell, it could if it works become one of the biggest reason for nations to improve their ethics so they can participate.
Something that really “scares” me is that I have been following both Noah and Tristan throughout RUclips mainly because of the Recommendations that this very system showed to me, and now they are together having an interview... Do not misrepresent me; we can argue that they seem to share a lot of point in theirs views and that’s why wired organised this meeting but, at the same time, who know if all this was “boosted” by the algorithms? The reputation of both philosophers speed up and “oriented” in a certain way that this interview was something inevitable?
That's a great twist. Could be worked into a nifty tech oriented sci-fi thriller, maybe directed by Christopher Nolan or Dennis Villeneuve.
As far as interview videos go this is by far the most interesting and informative one I have seen on this subject, I will be watching it again in the future to recoup what I may have missed or forgotten...
This is such an important video! PLEASE CONSIDER RE-TITLING the video so more people can find it or are likely to watch it. For example: HOW NOT TO BE HACKED BY YOUR SMART PHONE, Wired interview with... etc. The people who will find this video, titled as it is, are probably people who have already watched Yuval or Tristan in other videos and so are aware of at least some of these issues. It is imperative that this be seen by as many people as possible! Thank you again for sharing this knowledge, I will do my best to share this information with as many people as I can.
Well, depending on the person different titles will catch attention. I personally tend to click on low-key titles like this one. Your title would probably work better with bubbly upbeat people. I'm guessing you are a bubbly upbeat person (which is great), so that makes sense why you would think that
Yuval mentioned something in this video that computer science students in college or university need to learn more echics to handle those big issues during their future work. Currently I'm a data science student and I came here because my college introduced us to this video in the cyber security and ethics related course. Therefore, I think things have been moving in the right direction over these years.
This is the best comment by Andrea Laing not about the internet but about meditation practice.
"Attention is the highest currency you have, therefore everybody wants your attention, your friends, television media etc.
Including you.
including your own ego, wants your own attention, constantly interrupting you from your passion.
Therefore you have to bring it back with your meditation and with your breath 100 times a day." :)))))
And as Dr. Joe Dispenza says statistically people lose attention 6 times per minute.
Thank you Yuval, Tristan and Nicholas. Excellent and important discussion.
It's very important to have these dialogues and ideas in different lenguages. Thanks!
Ironically youtube keeps recommending more Yuval videos who warns against the algorithms that feed me his own videos. Actually, youtube wins. It is more pleasurable to listen to an articulate writer touting "know thyself" than it is to turn off youtube and meditate and do the hard work of self discovery.
You can use it though to learn how to
Try finding apps that automates your ability automatically to consume this content
Block site, offtime and pi-hole (on a raspberry with custom scripts) can be a good start
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I think
Both of these thinkers are titans of our era. We cannot talk about the most pressing issues today without mentioning Yuval and Tristan.
Humanity is doomed because of people like you, Let me guess stunning and brave right. Lol stupidity on a dangerous level 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
“Know thyself”… the absolute key best advice you’ll ever receive. Make it a priority and be honest it’s the only way to become successful and find true happiness.
Amazing interview thanks so much!!
Great conversation! I love RUclips; great internet tool for learning; when well used, of course.
Today is 3rd Dec 2020, exactly 2 years after this video was posted. I wonder if either speaker thinks we've made any progress in the right direction yet? Or whether it has become more urgent? Personally I think it's the latter case. Absolutely great video btw, plus I have your books; Sapiens and Homo Deus
Only 70k views. This needs to be watched everywhere.
That's a great interview!
Amazing talk! Very, very interesting
You legends, very important points raised and good solutions proposed. Thanks guys
This discussion is so important
I have watched more than 10 talks of Yuval, All extents more than an hour, But still whenever there is a new upload I watch that and always come with something new worth knowing, I don't what's the path of being that smart but definitely I have this notion for me telling some wisdom at some point of my life.
I also watch him all I can and always come away knowing more.
Fantastic video. Thank You.
Yuval mentions joining organizations that act towards spreading awareness against these algorithms and coming up with solutions. I checked Sapienship for this by Yuval. But can we know more such organizations?
we dont need to stop technology development, we need ETHICS!
Great interview, thank you!
Thank you very much Tristan.
Excelente como sempre Yuval Harari ..
Great video, very insightful!!
thank you for this
Don't know what the ukulele is. And not gonna search for that but rather if someone knows please tell me that.
The Ukulele is a small 4 string instrument that looks like a small guitar.
Brilliant people, thanks for info.
Your insanely stupid if your going along with this horrible idea of slavery and losing your constitutional amendments. This is dangerous you don't want this I promise you
Thanks for organizing wired! Gah, this setup looks so uncomfortable :p
Seems like the emphasis on ethical design principles needs to be supplemented with a new set of legal concepts that require transparency in algorithm design, in turn leading to the need for dis-interested mediating institutions. Not clear that this challenge (sic: responsibility) will be ultimately addressed by the Big 3 given the costs of modifying a successful business model.
I am the same amazed by this and worried about how little this is known by people. We need to wake up yesterday.
I found the "underlying value" that Harris mentions at 35:30 confusing. Isn't that just basic social/self-awareness, which we have to rely on ourselves for, and not technology? He seems to suggest that the algorithm should be doing this for us, which seems to contradict their whole argument that getting "hacked" is a bad thing
Does anyone know any organizations to join where I can learn more and help?
I created a system that uses numbers colours & words to help me become medication free & the last time I was hospitalised I was told that I don't need to be medicated, but I do need to sleep. For me a psychosis is related to when you have not slept for a long time you enter your REM your dreamworld & as I look back over my thought processes I realise how much relates back to what I read about or watched as a child.
What you say about the system you created is fascinating. Could you tell us more about it/indicate where we could access information about it. It seems like something everyone could do with.
Great stuff.
Thank you.
Hoping software programmers will be the focus of ethical decisions for software developed is foolish. Most will follow orders, do the work they are paid to perform, much like those who build any other product that has some "bad" side effects (think bakers/confectioner, car manufacturers, plastics manufacturers, oil producers, war/weapons systems makers, bankers, pharma, politicians,....).
Superbly interesting talk .....
Great wisdom !
This is a fascinating conversation!
4:23 Brexit is a good example.
The English elite Brexited from the English people a long time ago.
Wow you three kings !
Great Thoughts for saving humanity from the dark pit of markets
Enlightening & scary at the same time!!!
how the fuck did i miss this video, for 2 years?
these two were together 2 years ago and I didn't see it immediately? RUclips algorithm clearly fell short.
I wonder if human sourced data will soon be worthless: the best AI chess player (Alphazero) does not need it anymore, and is largely superior than the best database principled player (Stockfish).
It won't.. because humans / societies change, rules of chess don't
What should I study in school if I wanna go into the field of Internet ethics
Maybe you should talk to your local adviser but I would think a combination of humanities courses and computer science courses
It seems to me that you may have, albeit unintentionally, positively generalized the potential impact of joining any organization. There being any potential (and/or even any actual) benefit(s) to joining any organization does not necessarily occur without there also possibly - if not also actually - being any potential drawback(s) to that, as well. Any organization might have a professed aim (whether that aim is or is not - in and of itself - all and only beneficial), but may also have any number of established policies and/or it practices that happen to be (whether more, or less, or not at all obviously so) not particularly, if at all, in accordance with and conducive to the reaching of that aim. Is there any way to diminish, or even to dissolve, that possibility's occurrence? If so, in what way or ways can that be done?
This is the harsh reality that they are talking about. I'm so deeply connected to their thoughts and such beautifully they've explained that how we are being manipulated. It's high time we should think in these lines and bring more self-awareness and try and stay away from algorithms that are hacking our choices in life.
Wow, these guys totally miss the most obvious solution: think local, act local, and emphasize face-to-face interactions. Harari mentions a few times that you should know yourself as well as possible, by meditation or other means. How about knowing your neighbors better by talking to them face-to-face? As they mention at one point, FB and other software tools can suggest that, in certain situations, people get off their screens and deal with others in the real world. There are app categories that do this - neighborhood social networks (e.g. Nextdoor), apps for facilitating in-person get-togethers (e.g. Meetup & Evite), and location-based games (e.g. Pokemon GO).
How does AdBlock come into the equation?
I had to laugh, because the video I watched on youtube just before this one was a video on learning to play Ukulele (which was not suggested to me by youtube, though, but which I actively sought out, because I lost my instructional book).
Fascinating interview, really appreciate it. Interestingly enough I didn't find this video thru YTs algorithm, I had a link in one of my podcasts (Best of the Left). It will be interesting to see if this affects my YT recommendations in the next week or two, lol
It's definitely true how social media algorithms are a double or even triple-edged sword. We've all seen how they can magnify bad or misleading content to users, with sometimes really destructive results; but it can also be a good thing, helping users discover more positive, uplifting, fact-based, or enlightening content. Hopefully in time the negative potential of these algorithms can be minimized while it's positive potential is strengthened.
I am not being able to think that ''How the future is gonna emerge and into something what?'' But I believe there is a lot of scope for everyone so just always make your mind ready for something unpredictable.
I think it is becoming more and more difficult for someone to focus on one thing because there is always a thought that hinders the mind, That something very useful is getting missed.
FOMO (fear of losing out) is what drives a lot of unintended activity on RUclips.
So, true
Wonderful
Bless Nicholas for being optimistic lol
It may be hard for "us' to admit "our" own weaknesses and "our " own biases, because of there possibly being no weaknesses and no biases that are ours - even if each of us does, nonetheless, happen have any particular one or more weakness(es) and/or any particular one or more bias(es) - whether shared in common with one or more of "us" or not.
I tell you what's on my recommended playlist after yours and you tell me: Harris' TED Talk (That's quite on point), your Steven Pinker interview (mmm... ok.. I guess?), a video complaining about "millennial socialism and centrist dads" and an interview with Richard Dawkins (ugh). I mean, I can't make this sh*t up
I fell into the 2016 Cambridge Analytica and the weaponization of data rabbit hole.
HEY EVERYONE Let's all put together a list; what's RUclips suggesting for you? What video (aside from another Harari or Harris) is "Up next" for you?
For me, the next three suggestions after other Harari and Harris videos are a Sam Harris podcast about Christianity, a Steven Pinker video about linguistics, and a Jordan Peterson video titled "IQ, Race, and the Jewish Question."
When you speak about the British Empire surrendering power, I would like you to be more specific. It seems to me that you are underestimating the role of people's resistence and struggle against the empires. It almost seems as if these empires ceased to exist, because the ruling elites decided that they didn't want to opress people any longer. That undermines the effort of thousands of people that fought and resisted the empires and contributed to their "surrender" of power.
Thank god I came here actually looking for this on a sugestion from a journalist
"That data" was not "stolen by a researcher". FB was so naive that they left it in the public view, with, as far as I know, no restrictions on it's intended use. Tristan, why repeat this 'stolen' framing? Especially as the far bigger issue is that FB continues to use the data as they like & to share it as they like. Cambridge Analytics....
Muchas gracias por tus consejos Yuval, la plática fue excelente sí, me quedé toda la hora viéndolos 😊
You three need to talk to Michael Laitman very soon.
Need more scientist,computer engineers in our political system.
Whatever the number of words used in the talk..... Just try to imagine the same talk with Jordan Peterson, There you have 75% more words in the same amount of time.
And less accurate information. Jordan is a magical thinker who claims he isn't.
Interviewer seemed very passive. What do you guys think about him?
Yuval will never stops his talks and conversations until he got his AI sidekick
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And I won't stop supporting and promoting Yuval
:)
hahah finally figured out the mans agenda
if i want to join or support an organization like professor Harari suggest - is someone can recommended this kind of organization? global one are good to know about, but if someone know an organization that have roots in Israel, where i from, it will be even better.
thanks!
I don't know any specific in Isreal
But figure something that really sparks your emotion
Be prepared to face true horrific things (reality) and not become crazy
Learning meditation is good to keep a balanced mind
What interests you the most?
For me it was animal rights that forced me to learn to have difficult conversations with fellow humans - on both sides
I think by practicing, learning, going out to events that goes in that direction and becoming authentic about your values you will attract situations and people where you will find organizations
Try not to become dark in your mind - but this a way to generic advice to make sense I guess
Maybe you'll understand what I try to say
World peace begins with inner peace
Realize you shouldn't start wanting others to change and understand, but rather change and understand yourself and human nature with a higher priority and then slowly help other and be a good influence (as good as you can)
It has many layers and I just spitting out random pieces
And who knows what of these are right or useful
If you got any questions though, feel free to ask :)
Whoa....
I don’t think putting up barriers online is going to help us solve this issue, even if the intentions of these barriers are in the right place. We need to educate people about why this is happening.
Harari, i like your accent.
Love you great minds 😍😍
Yuval's middle name is noah！Wow wonder if this has sort of metaphorial meaning？Are we humans going to be flooded by the AI？The 18 century idealology with 21century techenology look definitely like a great flood that is coming soon！Who is going to build an ARK？
8:46 he prays to the machine...this is instructive, and chilling
edit:sp
12:32
Actually the analogy made between slavery and manipulation of the human mind is very apt, not in any way an exaggeration
harari is always cufusing coding with product design, the coder translates in computer language a process to solve a problem but the choice of process is up to product designers
23:45 “We can design a different political and economic system in order to prevent this immense concentration of data and power in the hands of either government or corporations that use it, use it, use it without being accountable and without being transparent about what they are doing. The message is not ok, it’s over, humankind is in the dustbin of history.”
~Yuval Noah Harari
Sure... we could design a political and economic system that minimizes moral corruption and cognitive capture... It may be the only way to escape the multitude of existential threats facing all life on the planet. Or... I could just click on the next video. Who's working on designs for systemic revolution and not just new market creation?
I've a bias towards a sort of intellectual hedonism, this lead me to click on this video, does this mean that Yval has hacked me? Did he hack me back in 2013 when I did his online course? Giving me a dopamine hit with his awfully fantastical and exciting ideas.
I have a bias towards intellectual hedonism too, which has ironically given me insight into how intellectualism is a double-edged sword, like any powerful tool. It can become yet another addiction, or it can cut to the root of humanity's problems. The problem is, in our society we have no alternatives to the intellect yet so we turn to it to tackle our inner demons. This it cannot really do. It can develop tools to hack them, though ;)
Isn't the root of "intellectual hedonism" the *need* for the profound in one's life, and hence we listen to people like NYH, Sam Harris, et al?
Many/most people find the profound in giving birth to life, shaping their young minds, supporting them while they grow up; and others - myself included - need to listen to brilliant visionary thinkers, meditate, spend time in spectacular natural beauty, etc.
This is a watershed conversation of philosophy and daily life of our time. Join an organization!
Glorious discussion! 💙 YangGangLove 💙
I tried to join Tristans and well 🤷🏻♀️he’s too cool
only a matter of time ... Yuval cites biotech merger as threat to individual freedoms ... so can block chain technology be used to create a safe hack field environment for humans ...?
an analogy might be what kind of biotech/electronic Faraday cage needs to be built to protect the individual from all of the 'noise' in their environment?
also the qubit is intimate with the CHIRAL anomaly being used to build computers ...
👍
major in comp sci minor in philosophy?
Business models need to go past the dichotomous "for profit" vs "not for profit" conversation. Consider Robert OWEN and Hamdi ULUKAYA
thank you for these references. wish more of these conversations had grounded actionable to-dos to make this future happen
35:00 sense-making cognitive process - absolutely and technology designers that design algorithms to guide by countering fringe and fundamentalist attitudes by presenting more attractive and rewarding alternatives is only a good social move. So maybe we can design governance not solely for profit but for achievement of raised intellect , social awareness and therefore emotional well-being. Peace and true success in life is found in neither a utopia nor a dystopia. A life of reason aside of our tendency to fall into Greek Tragedy’s and reach for Hollywood’s silver screen.
16:35 top 5 personality traits
The RUclips algorithm brought me here.
Chess vs Poker ...
I Think Poker Is Greater ...