@@JeanLucCaptainNo I didn't notice that, but after looking, that registry number doesn't belong to an Excelsior class starship but instead a Cheyenne class.
You have to remember the nebula they were in. In a normal fight out in open space with nothing inhibiting any systems, yes, the Excelsior would've torn the Reliant to shreds. However, in the nebula...not so easy. Yes, the Excelsior would most likely be the victor in nine out of ten fights due to shear superiority, but it would be much more difficult to do, since they can't get a weapons' lock.
Despite comments below, I would hope that any Excelsior class would win. It is, after all, the most modern of the Star Fleet vessels (at that time). It is larger so one would presume it had more power for shields and weapons. Based on the model, it has 10 phaser banks on just the saucer as opposed to six on Reliant. The only thing Reliant has for it are the megaphaser cannons and probably more maneuverable. Still, IF you were using Khan and crew, I think the biggest liability for them would be a lack of knowledge and man power to make effective repairs from any damage that they took. Running a ship is not the same as having the know-how to repair it. I seriously doubt any of Khan's crew, including himself, could do very much beyond minor repairs.
+sciguyjeff yup agreed....only an actual veteran starship captain could have a chance going against an excelsior class in a miranda class, something khan was at a disadvantage with going against the enterprise with most of the damage he cause being more or less cheap shots that crippled the ship.
It's not just number of phaser banks, but their output as well. A brand new Excelsior would be 15 - 20 years newer than any Miranda class. That said, the USS Excelsior has one distinct advantage over any Miranda.... it's the only ship in the fleet with Captain Sulu.
mark thompson it’s a concept the fans came up with to explain why the phasers on the Reliant are so much more pronounced than the ones on the Enterprise.
The Excesior with Sulu and Rand in command could have taken down Khan! Sulu, with all his experience with Kirk & Spock, would have noticed Khan's 2 dimensional strategy that Spock pointed out!
Aye, it's a great phaser SFX, shame we didn't get to see and hear more of the pulse phasers throughout the other movies. TWOK is the only movie the connie fires her phasers.
Personally I do not believe in criticizing another's work. If those who do not like someone's work, make your own, oh wait, they don't know how. Keep up the FANtastic work. I wish I had the ability and resources to make such a beautiful, visually stunning video.
I saw a bridge commander video like this one only where it was the Reliant and the Enterprise and during the battle of the Mutara Nebula the Constitution Refit Class U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 became the Galaxy Class U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-D now that was a shocker that a 24th century Starship appeared during a historical battle.
An interesting follow-up would be a naval battle between the two Excelsior classes (referring to NCC-2000 and the Excelsior type that the Enterprise-B falls under).
Exactly why the Excelsior had no problem locking on to the Reliant with phasers and torpedoes at close range. The Reliant was flying blind (so was the Enterprise for that matter...) The "Great Experiment" is indeed far more advanced than either ship...and it was developed at a time when the Klingons were improving their cloacking systems.
at close range one could do manual targeting by visual. The phasors should have some system where a camera is synchronised with the phasor so the weapon aims where the camera looks. A simple crosshair and a joystick will do the trick when they are close up and not dodging wildly.
As the registry number reads NCC-2000 when it was initially NX-2000, would this have been set just before or after Sulu became captain of the Excelsior?
The USS Exelsior is superior to the Miranda Class in every aspect. Especially with a captain in command like Hikaru Sulu. The Exelsior would have turned Khan and the small USS Reliant into confetti in minutes.
That depends.... . In the old timeline Sulu was still helmsman of the Enterprise and the Excelsior was a prototype to be launched under the command of Captain Styles. It took Sulu a couple of more years to become captain of the excelsior. So in order for Sulu to face Khan that alternate timeline would have to be radically different.
Sulu was actually meant to be her Capt but Admiral Cartwright screwed him over due to the genisis event which is part of the reason he was happy to help Kirk and McCoy.
the only reason Reliant damaged Kirks ship so badly was because he was an idiot. Any Starship parking its nose that close to another Starship is up to no good. Trusting a ship because it is federation was no excuse and not in the better interest of his crew. The Reliant had no chance against the Excelsior. Kahn would have never gone up against a ship that size. Sulu wouldnt be as trusting for sure. The fact that they used the Miranda class for many years after Enterprise kind of says alot about its design and usefulness. Kahn certainly picked a good ship,too bad he was so vengeful, they could have gone anywhere and started over. The dish he served only served to kill himself snd all his people. not a smart guy after all. So much for being the more Superior Intellect.
+scott firman Khan was also able to cripple the Enterprise as easily as he did because in the TOS episode he appeared in, he studied the technical manuals for that class of ship so he knew it's weaknesses. Excelsior would have been a design that he was unfamiliar with so he wouldn't know where to hit it to cause the most damage.
At that point in the timeline, Kahn would not be going up against Sulu. He would be facing Styles. And despite Excelsior's superior armaments, Styles is still a bigger idiot than Kirk ever thought of being. So, when Kahn sets off Genesis, the transwarp drive fails and Spock isn't there to get it operational in the nick of time. Both ships lost.
I liked the Miranda Class starship on Starfleet Command "Empires at War" It didn't have the weapons like those big heavy cruisers but I loved how quick it was and its maneuvering capabilities.
The big difference that is missed in the movie (and seems to be less so here) is the crew difference. Khan had only a dozen or zo people on a ship designed for a few hundred, excelsior/enterprise has its full complement. On khan's side, anything that gets hit, stays hit. On enterprise/excelsior there are enough engineers to reroute and makeshift repair stuff on the fly, so any lull in the fire exchange would be heavily advantageous to 'the good guys', as they can far more easily meaningfully incapacitate reliant than khan can do to them. If khan didnt get in his lucky shot at the start, enterprise would have blown him away.
The "Great Experiment" failed if i remember correctly and id just like to ask exactly where you heard that the Miranda class had been retired by the time of the Dominion wars and where its said they were skeleton manned? I dont remember ANY reference to that in any episode of any of the shows.
When I first saw this video one I was always curious about and that is was the Excelsior seen in this video under the command of Hikaru Sulu or it's first captain Captain Styles when he was ordered to go after the stolen U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701.
No problem. Yes, I would think the actual "experiment" was in fact the Transwarp drive. As for the Mirandas, you are right. Although this is not canon, I do find the theory that the Mirandas were retired and thrown back in service for the war to be; reasonable. In fact, the Soyuz class was one of those variants you mention, but we do know from TNG that this ship class was retired by approx. 2330-2340.
Hello ! Yes, the actual transwarp experiement did fail, but the Excelsior did not. In fact it can be said that the Excelsior has proven to be the most reliable starship design even in the 24th century. As for the Mirandas - some of those sources are the database.alpha-command site and the Daystrom Institure Technical Library site. You will also notice in my comment, I had mentioned "some sources claim" ; )
Very nice video. This era has always been my favorite. In my opinion, the constitution refit, miranda and excelsior look better then any tng ship. I do agree with the general opinion that excelsior would win. Not because the weapons are better, because she has more internal space. With more space, there is a better chance reliant could be hitting non essential systems.
Look it makes no difference which ship khan faced if the the SHIELDS are DOWN.It's toast. You are totally wrong.What difference does it make if a photon torpedo comes from a Galaxy class or a Miranda class ? It's still a photon torpedo.
Well it does make a difference, in 80 years they develope new, stronger torpedos, so during this movie they use Mk VI Torpedos and the Voyager already uses Mk XXV Torpedos, so i think they are more effective.
@@esecallum none really. A TOS era D7 still put up quite a fight against much newer Intrepid-class, namely Voyager. Heavy torpedoes and disruptors are still heavy torpedoes and disruptors no matter what fires them. It's like a relatively new Burke-class Destroyer taking on a WWI-WWII Cruiser. Newer weapons and range vs thicker armor plate and 5-8 inch guns and 21 inch torpedoes. Will still cripple and or destroy most ships today with the right crew
It is claimed by some sources that since the Miranda class ships were out of service during the Dominion War, but rushed back out into battle because the Feds needed every ship they had, that the Mirandas were only fitted with skeleton crews of 50 officers or so. Still sad though...
True, both ships were heavily used in the Dominion Wars...however, they were used very differently. In more than one scene, the Mirandas appeared to be used as canon fodder to distract from the larger ships (Galaxy, Nebula, Excelsior, Akira).
Excelsior class would roflpwn a Miranda, even with Khan on the conn. Khan's only hope would be a decapitating strike, to hit the bridge while Excelsior's shields were down. Judging by the damage the phaser cannons did against a Connie, Excelsior wouldn't even feel it if Khan tried targeting the engine room first. And firing at the nacelles might hamstring Excelsior but she'd still have full core power for phasers. Connie's a beautiful ship but she's a glass cannon. Excelsior's a bruiser.
No disrespect to the Enterprise, but the Excelsior would have mopped the floor with the Reliant on their first encounter. Khan couldn't hope to overpower her, even with the element of surprise.
In all honesty, I feel they should have given Kirk command of the Enterprise-B with Harrison as his first officer with an eye towards training him to be his replacement when the time came, then have that time come abruptly when Kirk sacrifices himself to save the Enterprise and her crew.
Sorry, I assumed without knowing... Have you seen Deep Space Nine and the Dominion Wars ? Do you remember those battle scenes with the Miranda class ships getting torn to bits ? : )
There's no great ship enterprise reliant and excelsior were the backbone of Starfleet anyone who says there bad will answer to us history will remember the name enterprise 'jean Luc picard'
The main thing wrong with this video is that the fight would have never made it to the Mutara Nebula. The Excelsior would have torn the Reliant to shreds even if the Reliant had fired first with the Excelsior's shields were down. The Excelsior is considerably larger than the Enterprise was.
Considering the Excelsior is like WAY newer than the Reliant its shields and sensors would probably function inside the nebula as well as the targeting scanners. so really the reliant would stand no chance either way.
i'd kinda like star trek 3 to be a combination of the timeline being screwed and that episode with daystrom, except this time round daystrom is recognised and accepted by his piers and refuses to make a system commanded by any 1 man or machine. Reliant, enterprise, Excelsior and Avenger class vessals face off against the enterprise A a fully upgraded version of the avenger commanded by kirk, the ships are then fought by klingons wishing to test their worth resulting in events leading up to a potential alliance but left open ended.
True but we also know that the Miranda class had to have been around in the 2280's (Reliant) and must have been in continuos service at least until 2373/4 at the time of the Klingon invasion of Cardassia because Miranda's were sent in the relief force at the end of "way of the warrior" not to mention their constant apperance in TNG. You could be right thought but it would have been a short retirement for the some of the class at least.
Wtf ever happened to the Gorn? I used to play in the 90s and early 2000s. The Gorn were a a thing. Their battleships kicked butt. Heavy super structure, great shields, and plasma weapons.
Some of you guys don't know your Star Trek tech or class of starships. The Miranda class starship that the USS Reliant is apart of DOES NOT have pulse phasers or phaser cannons. The pulse phaser makes its debut on the USS Defiant in the 24th century. The Reliant has standard phasers & photon torpedoes. Same armament as the Constitution class USS Enterprise. Check the manuals & online sources. Starfleet doesn't get pulse phasers or phaser cannons until 90 years later. The Excelsior is the most advanced 23rd century starship. It has a more powerful warp reactor core, stronger impulse engines, stronger shields, stronger hull, better auxiliary power, stronger phaser banks, & more advanced photon torpedoes. The Miranda class has speed & maneuverability. But the Excelsior outclasses the Reliant in every other category. This is such a mismatch. Even a Starfleet cadet could beat Khan in the Excelsior. His genetically engineered intellect cannot win in a pure mismatch. Also, if the Excelsior had a fully experienced officers? Khan would still lose.
The Excelsior was a newer ship Vs. Reliant. Reliant did have more weaponry than the similar aged Enterprise as Spock explained- yet the Excelsior's newer design, was not just aesthetic, but just plainly operationally better in terms of weapons. Was this well made for it's animation? Yes. Could the Excelsior beat it up faster than depicted? Yes. Excelsior was newer than the same Enterprise that was in the sequel, it would be able to beat it comparatively too. ...lol, did I expect edited audio from Captain Sulu and Khan? sorry, yes! imfao.
The Excelsior would have had little trouble dispatching The Reliant. For starters The Excelsior was over engineered to be a testbed class for advanced tech, has more power shields and weapons, a thicker more resilient hull with ablative armor and superior heat dissipation meaning it can stay in a fire fight far longer than could Reliant ever could. It would have been a 1 way curb stomp period assuming equally trained crews...which was not the case. The Reliant's crew were not familiar with the ship to a great extent, further lowering their chances of a win.
Where did it say any of that in the movie? Nothing in the movies stated it had ablative armor. Nothing in the movies stated it had better shields or weapons. These things are made up in tech manuals and ST wiki which usually contradicts themselves. The Reliant is a smaller ship that can maneuver better, with two forward and two aft torpedo launchers just like the Excelsior. Based on Model and movies images, they have the same standard phaser banks with the Excelsior having more of the standard phasers. The difference is the Reliant has the phaser cannons which are more powerful than the standard phasers. The Excelsior is built for exploration. The Reliant was built for Exploration and Defense. Why else would it have the phaser cannons, or as others have called mega phasers? It was being used with the Genesis device because it was a top secret experiment that, if stolen, could make an ultimate weapon of mass destruction. They needed a ship that was better suited in keeping others from taking the Genesis device. ,
That's actually the main cargo bay. A suave captain would depressurize the bay, expelling cargo in attempts to detonate the torpedoes before they struck. If Pat was referencing main engineering, that's located on deck 3, towards the back of the primary hull... AND, a moment of self realization just washed over me...no wonder I lost my virginity at age 22...
The excelsior can match the proxima class (the most powerful starship in starfleet service before excelsior) with much less of a targeting profile, the proxima having 2 secondary hulls and 4 nacelles. The excelsior would block that cheap shot from the reliant fired at the side.
Given the timing of the events (TWOK), the Excelsior's registry should've still been NX-2000, when it was still an experimental prototype on trial runs, not yet a commissioned ship of the line. Either way, this would've made for one hell of a shakedown cruise.
First off this video and scenario is happening like 100 years before TNG. the Excelsior is a ship thats probbly 30 years newer than the Reliant class (whatever the hell it is) i am not going to check to see exactly how "new" it is over the reliant but suffice it to say it has all new technology/shields/sensors as it was a test bed for such things. it would have easily handled the reliant in any battle situation.
+Ken Hill and it's probably Capt. Tyrell that told Khan where to aim the phasers so they would do the most damage. With the Excelsior being a new design, he may not have had the technical drawing and/or clearance to call up the specs to know where to fire at the ship to do the most damage.
Excelsior was only NX-2000 on her maiden voyage/trial run (after Scotty's sabotage there would be some updates) but once she entered proper service, she became NCC-2000, see the Undiscovered Country.
First off, as an Observer; the Reliant lost because; (drumroll , please!) It was fighting 2 ships, both of which of a larger, more powerful, newer class. Look at the segments from (vid time wise) .09 to .54 seconds, and the ship registry number is NCC 50468, and then, from .57 seconds on, it is NCC 2000 (which would be also incorrect, until Capt. Sulu takes the Excalibur out as a non-NX experimental ship, whereupon she's rechristened NCC-2000; O.K., so maybe after Sulu has run her through her first cruise?). This leads to Khan's (and mine, as a viewer!) confusion as to which ship in the fog he's fighting with!! As a Star-Fleet-Battles veteran of many, many battles, I can say the poor reliant is severely outclassed by the Excalibur (even only one!) type ships. Shields would be about 66% of what the Excalibur would have. Photons would be about 50%, and phasers (while the Reliant does have "gatling" close-in defense phasers capable of multiple bursts on a target) would still be only 60% of the Excalibur's potential. Then there's other resources such as shuttlecraft, boarding parties (even if Kirk only had Cadets, he would've, on the Excalibur, MANY young-guns), and just the mass of the ship to absorb whatever the shields didn't.. Khan's butt is cooked, unless some cadet ensign named Barclay takes over!
Oops, I has 'Excalibur' on the brain (had been watching "Crusade" just a bit before); That's what you get for mixing Sci-Fi shows, and having Lysdexia! Please replace "excalibur" with 'Excelsior' ,when reading my comments. No one's perfect, Eh?
The Excelsior class is a battleship (at the time of TOS movies) and later downgraded to a cruiser (in TNG). 😉 It would’ve very quickly made short work of the Reliant. 😂
Your premise is interesting, but you changed the parameters of the fight, not just the ship. You forgot that Khan didn't think in three dimensional terms during that battle with Kirk. Against the Excelsior with those same exact conditions, the Reliant would have been toast after the first round.
Wasnt much of a match.the reliant had the element of surprise and couldnt breach the exceliors shields with a full strike.the reliant is also 2 generations behind the excelior.
I apologise, i re-read my comment and it did sound a tad confrontational lol, i agree the Excelsior class was for sure one of the most successful designs in trek history but was the ship or the engine what was referred to as the "Great Experiment" ?, id also have to argue that the Miranda class was more reliable, spawning many variants, engaged in many roles over a longer period of time.
The engine was the great experiment. And also not really more reliable, since the excelsior class frame lasted from 2284 to 2401 in the Picard series where the Excelsior ll class was shown. Miranda at that time was just not fit for modern service anymore but the excelsior, being a very durable and reliable frame continued to exist well after 2400.
The transwarp expiriment was not actually transwarp in the tng era. In the tmp(aka the motion picture) era ships had to go through several minutes or hours to reach a certain warp velocity. Like if you need to cruise at warp 5 you would need to accelerate from lightspeed all the way to 5. The transwarp drive was supposed to instantaneously accelerate to the warp speed you desire. Which in TNG era proved to be possible.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done indeed, But unfortunately the Reliant would of been totally destroyed and abiliverated after she fired her first shots at the Excelsior no if ands or buts about it period!.
Your joking right? WHO was in command of Ex “smell” cer ….that indict Styles? That battle should of never lasted that long. A battle ship VS a heavy cruiser. It took Excelisor way to long to start firing Torpedos .
Ships are only a good as their captains and crew. Reliant was from the same development age as the constitution class and Khans great advantage was he knew the design specifications from studying them during "Space seed". If he saw Excelsior he probably would have used a different tactic or said "aw nuts" . Also Kirk did try to take Reliant back and not totally destroy it, Khan is the one who activated the Genesis device while proving he read Moby Dick too many times.
+Ese Callum the difference being the damage khan is able to do to the other ship...he effectively crippled the Constitution class enterprise as they were near evenly matched while the excelsior...yeah that is funny
Look it makes no difference which ship khan faced if the the SHIELDS are DOWN.It's toast. You are totally wrong.What difference does it make if a photon torpedo comes from a Galaxy class or a Miranda class ? It's still a photon torpedo.
In VI Kirk fought that huge guy in the Klingon prison and won because he hit him exactly where the most damage would be done Size is irrelevant in a fight and if this video played like the movie, Excelsior would've gotten the crap kicked out of her as well. But I think that we all like both ships. The way it is now is divisional to the community. Clearly it's biased as Excelsior lumbers along, Reliant flies circles around her. Reliant also has fore and aft firing pulse phaser cannons(predecessors to DS9 Defiant's),Excelsior does not. Excelsior also can't fire aft torpedoes. Make us all happy and have them just ram each other and both explode. lol
Actually, the Excelsior CAN fire aft torpedoes. It has aft torpedo launchers located directly above the main shuttlebay. Also, the Reliant doesn't have pulse cannons. It has two tubular phaser emitters.
I looked up quite a few sources before responding. Reliant is an easy answer. She DOES has four (2 fore 2 aft) PULSE phaser cannons. As well as many more armaments I'd be happy to go over with you. This is on every source of blueprints I could find. Excelsior does NOT have aft torpedo launchers. Also on every source. The Enterprise B refit does, but that doesn't apply here. It's not surprising that your video is so lopsided and unfair-lack of knowledge, with all due respect. It is also Excelsior that has the tubular emitters. I'd suggest familiarizing yourself with what these different weapons are. Pulse cannons are the giant, well cannon looking weapons as seen at the tips of the 1864's rollbar. Tubular are simply round hole-like openings(you can see them in action on DS9's "Paradise Lost" episode-upgraded substantially but same shape). There are also turret phasers, which Reliant does have. I'd be happy to go over any of these topics with you if further clarification is needed.
Actually, the prototype wasn't a failure because of Scotty. The prototype was a failure BEFORE Scotty sabotaged it. He disabled the transwarp drive to allow the Enterprise to leave Spacedock, but also to save the 900+ lives on the Excelsior. After the incident, the transwarp drive was found to be completely unreliable...which is why no Federation starship was ever equipped with one, even 100 years later.
I would've liked to know exactly what "transwarp" was, because it's not likely to be the same kind used by the Borg. Probably just a faster form of warp that allows the ship to traverse much greater distances in a short period of time. In any case, quantum slipstream will blow it out of the water. Either way, the Excelsior-class (even with standard warp drive) proved its worth in the 23rd and 24th centuries, so all's well that ends well.
Good video, but I have to disagree with all the Excelsior would have torn the Reliant to pieces. The Reliant has two forward and two aft pulse phaser cannons. Just because the Excelsior is new does not mean her weapons were that much more advanced. It is no way her phasers were more powerful than Reliant's phaser cannons. Plus the Reliant is more maneuverable. I would say that in a lot of areas the Excelsior's technology was no different than Reliant's due to the failure of it's trans warp drive. Being new does not mean anything. Enterprise A got shot all to crap by Chang's BOP and survived. Enterprise D got shot up by an old BOP and was destroyed. I don't think Captain Style's could have handled Khan. Remember the USS Defiant when you think a larger ship is better. The Defiant kicked the butt of larder advanced ships.
Sorry, but besides being a much larger dreadnought, the original Excelsior had type 8 phaser banks and more of them, 3 banks of torpedo launchers, and far more powerful shields than the Constitution class refit. The Excelsior class made up the bulk of ships and was backbone of Star Fleet in the "next generation" and Dominion war upgrades made it competitive in battle with the freakin Defiant. More than a match for a poor old Miranda class with an inexperienced captain. Yes, we are arguing about fictional ships, but I'm coming from the official technical specs.
What official specs are we talking about? I do not go by official specs. The ones written by the people who worked behind the scenes are flawed and contradict themselves from one publication to the next. I go by comments and visuals on this debate. The standard phaser banks on the Reliant are visually the same as those on the Reliant. The phaser cannons are obviously more powerful. Spock states in Wrath of Kahn when referring to the Reliant “She can still outrun us and outgun us.” The Reliant has two visual forward torpedo launchers and two aft. The same can be said for the Excelsior. The Phaser cannons are the true difference in the two ships. The Reliant, due to its smaller size can do to the Excelsior what Spock said above. The Excelsior is just a beefed up explorer with a few more standard phaser emitters that you see on the constitution class. Excelsior cannot run with the Defiant. Wof kicked the USS Lakota’s butt and that ship, Lokata, had major upgrades.
cowboyborn First, yes, different official tech manuals and such are inconsistent, but they don't differ that wildly. The most neutral aggregate source for arguing trek nerds would be the big wiki - Memory Alpha. Second, you're arguing with an old Trekkie and industrial designer who loves sci-fi specifically because of the imagined technology. I've built lots of large ST models as a teen, including the Constitution class refit, Reliant, and Excelsior. Beyond having more and newer phaser banks, there are 3 sets of torpedo launchers on the standard Excelsior - in the neck, flanking the deflector dish, and aft below the secondary hull. Phaser "cannons" were never implemented until the Defiant and later on the Mirandas, but not when Khan had the Reliant. What you see on the Reliant are just externally mounted phasers on the upper superstructure. Third, the (cruiser) Constitution and slightly small (frigate) Miranda class are fairly evenly matched and only because of Khan's sneak attack did the Enterprise become crippled enough to be out run and gunned as Spock said. The (battle cruiser) Excelsior is almost 2x the length of the Enterprise with far more tonnage. Even if this bigger and far newer ship somehow only had equal shields and weapons to the old Reliant, it can take so much more damage just by mass alone. The smallish Miranda class and Defiant are in no way similar in combat capability. The only reason the small but extremely armed Defiant barely beat the upgraded Lakota was because the Defiant was even further upgraded with ablative armor and the Lakota didn't want to use it's quantum torpedoes. Seriously, if all the events in "wrath of khan" happened with Kirk commanding the Excelsior, he would have had a huge advantage - literally huge.
Phrancis5 I am an old Trekkie also and I have been building, still do, and creating kit bashes for a long time myself. As Scottie said why would you want that bucket of bolts. Just because you have the same number of STANDARD PHASERS does not make you a better fighting ship. The B-17 had more 50 caliber machine guns than a P-51 Mustang, but head to head I would rather be in that P-51. With it's phaser cannons the Miranda has the advantage. the Miranda was built for more than exploration. Like Spock said in the movie, "She can still outgun us." The Defiant would have defeated the Lakota without the ablative armor. She was built to fight the Borg. The quatum torpedoes would not have made a difference, like Kira said "They are worse, probably one shot would finish her." I read an article last night by Adam Buckner who created the USS Centaur and he said the people who wrote the manuals made plenty of mistakes about his ship. In the end you believe the Trek world the way you want to and I will look at it the way I want. That is the fun of it.
cowboyborn Newer things tend to have more capabilities but also tend to be more complex, like the easily sabotaged experimental transwarp drive that Scotty was referring to. Besides, that’s just one old engineer’s opinion. It’s not like he was any more proficient than later engineers and he freely admits that much of his “miracle worker” status comes from over estimations in repair times. (RIP James Doohan) That said, the Excelsior class wouldn’t have been that prolific if it wasn’t an effective design. While I understand your point about the B-17 vs P-51, the logical flaw is in assuming a single big unmaneuvering long range tactical daylight bomber was ever meant to duel with fighters. All those guns were meant strictly for defense and in conjunction with large formations of bombers. (not that it worked very well) You’re avoiding the logical analogy that the series is based on. NAVAL COMBAT. You know, empire building with your fleet or gun-boat diplomacy. When was the last time an Admiral commanded a bomber? And when was the last time an older frigate stood a fair fight one on one with a newer battlecruiser? Acceleration and maneuverability would be the main advantage of a smaller ship and in both “wrath of khan” engagements it was either a ship to ship slug-fest or blindly feeling around in a nebula with no shields and manual targeting. Maneuverability wasn’t a big factor. Again, the Enterprise was out-gunned because they were more crippled, not because a standard frigate was more powerful than a standard cruiser. No, the Excelsior most definitely had more torpedo launchers and more phasers - even if they used the same standard phaser technology, they were newer more powerful type 8 phasers. We still use the basic technology of gunpowder and lead, but you wouldn’t want a musket to fight the Taliban. And seriously, in what logical world (imagined or real) would a smaller older ship be equipped with equal or more powerful weapons? The Defiant would be the purpose built exception, but Mirandas were standard general purpose ships. It was on a freakin scientific survey mission when Khan captured it. And no, the upgraded Lakota stood a very good chance of taking out the Defiant. That’s why the rogue admiral specifically sent it in the first place. It’s not like he didn’t know about the Defiant’s combat capabilities. What he and the Lakota’s captain didn’t know about was the Defiant’s upgraded armor, which made the difference. Sorry, but Adam Buckner was but one of many visual effects people on the franchise and the only fair and neutral database would be the big ST wiki, where Mirandas are not as powerful as you claim. I think most trekkies would agree with that assessment and it seems so in the comments. Newfangled disruptive technologies and overly powerful weapons in the rest of the franchise were never a factor in “wrath of khan” ship to ship combat - at least until the Genesis detonation. We might be arguing about imaginary ships, but I’m coming from the standpoint of a logical progression in weapons development and ship classes in ST cannon. Sure, this is the internet and Sci-fi, so you can say or imagine whatever you want. Live long and may the force be with you!
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IMHO, IF the Reliant had come upon the Excelsior(with Kirk and crew in command) the fight would have never made it to the Mutara Nebula.
Imagine if the Enterprise-A is an Excelsior class and TWOK happened after VOH..
Khan never read the Exelciors Owner Manual! also, did you notice the Ship Registry was different in the first shot?
@@JeanLucCaptainNo I didn't notice that, but after looking, that registry number doesn't belong to an Excelsior class starship but instead a Cheyenne class.
Lol i haven't watched the video, but if there's a Miranda class fighting The Exelsior.... Well we all know who'll win.
EVERY TIME I HEAR THAT MUSIC, I END UP ON THE EDGE OF MY SEAT!!!!!!! LOVE IT!!!!!!!
You have to remember the nebula they were in. In a normal fight out in open space with nothing inhibiting any systems, yes, the Excelsior would've torn the Reliant to shreds. However, in the nebula...not so easy. Yes, the Excelsior would most likely be the victor in nine out of ten fights due to shear superiority, but it would be much more difficult to do, since they can't get a weapons' lock.
"My god that's a Big ship"
Despite comments below, I would hope that any Excelsior class would win. It is, after all, the most modern of the Star Fleet vessels (at that time). It is larger so one would presume it had more power for shields and weapons. Based on the model, it has 10 phaser banks on just the saucer as opposed to six on Reliant. The only thing Reliant has for it are the megaphaser cannons and probably more maneuverable. Still, IF you were using Khan and crew, I think the biggest liability for them would be a lack of knowledge and man power to make effective repairs from any damage that they took. Running a ship is not the same as having the know-how to repair it. I seriously doubt any of Khan's crew, including himself, could do very much beyond minor repairs.
+sciguyjeff yup agreed....only an actual veteran starship captain could have a chance going against an excelsior class in a miranda class, something khan was at a disadvantage with going against the enterprise with most of the damage he cause being more or less cheap shots that crippled the ship.
It's not just number of phaser banks, but their output as well. A brand new Excelsior would be 15 - 20 years newer than any Miranda class. That said, the USS Excelsior has one distinct advantage over any Miranda.... it's the only ship in the fleet with Captain Sulu.
mark thompson it’s a concept the fans came up with to explain why the phasers on the Reliant are so much more pronounced than the ones on the Enterprise.
sciguyjeff minisplitw
The Excesior with Sulu and Rand in command could have taken down Khan! Sulu, with all his experience with Kirk & Spock, would have noticed Khan's 2 dimensional strategy that Spock pointed out!
You used Bridge Commander, right? I'm glad to hear you use the coolest phaser sound from all of Star Trek...
Good comment. Love the mean/nasty phaser sound.
Aye, it's a great phaser SFX, shame we didn't get to see and hear more of the pulse phasers throughout the other movies. TWOK is the only movie the connie fires her phasers.
This music _never_ gets old....
Personally I do not believe in criticizing another's work. If those who do not like someone's work, make your own, oh wait, they don't know how.
Keep up the FANtastic work. I wish I had the ability and resources to make such a beautiful, visually stunning video.
Alternate title: The battle for the title of longest lasting starship class
I love both those ships. The TOS movies really had the best designs in all of Star Trek.
I saw a bridge commander video like this one only where it was the Reliant and the Enterprise and during the battle of the Mutara Nebula the Constitution Refit Class U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 became the Galaxy Class U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-D now that was a shocker that a 24th century Starship appeared during a historical battle.
Nicely done! The Excelsior is my second favourite starship design after the Constitution refit. I enjoyed this. =)
If I were Khan the first thing I would have targeted would be Excelsiours warp nacelle.
An interesting follow-up would be a naval battle between the two Excelsior classes (referring to NCC-2000 and the Excelsior type that the Enterprise-B falls under).
Exactly why the Excelsior had no problem locking on to the Reliant with phasers and torpedoes at close range. The Reliant was flying blind (so was the Enterprise for that matter...) The "Great Experiment" is indeed far more advanced than either ship...and it was developed at a time when the Klingons were improving their cloacking systems.
at close range one could do manual targeting by visual. The phasors should have some system where a camera is synchronised with the phasor so the weapon aims where the camera looks. A simple crosshair and a joystick will do the trick when they are close up and not dodging wildly.
As the registry number reads NCC-2000 when it was initially NX-2000, would this have been set just before or after Sulu became captain of the Excelsior?
"Daren't follow them into the nebula....our SHIP would be useless!"
The USS Exelsior is superior to the Miranda Class in every aspect. Especially with a captain in command like Hikaru Sulu. The Exelsior would have turned Khan and the small USS Reliant into confetti in minutes.
That depends.... . In the old timeline Sulu was still helmsman of the Enterprise and the Excelsior was a prototype to be launched under the command of Captain Styles. It took Sulu a couple of more years to become captain of the excelsior. So in order for Sulu to face Khan that alternate timeline would have to be radically different.
Sulu was actually meant to be her Capt but Admiral Cartwright screwed him over due to the genisis event which is part of the reason he was happy to help Kirk and McCoy.
the only reason Reliant damaged Kirks ship so badly was because he was an idiot. Any Starship parking its nose that close to another Starship is up to no good. Trusting a ship because it is federation was no excuse and not in the better interest of his crew. The Reliant had no chance against the Excelsior. Kahn would have never gone up against a ship that size. Sulu wouldnt be as trusting for sure. The fact that they used the Miranda class for many years after Enterprise kind of says alot about its design and usefulness. Kahn certainly picked a good ship,too bad he was so vengeful, they could have gone anywhere and started over. The dish he served only served to kill himself snd all his people. not a smart guy after all. So much for being the more Superior Intellect.
+scott firman Agreed. The Enterprise would have beaten the Reliant comfortably if the shields had been up. Still they had to make a story out of it.
+scott firman Khan was also able to cripple the Enterprise as easily as he did because in the TOS episode he appeared in, he studied the technical manuals for that class of ship so he knew it's weaknesses. Excelsior would have been a design that he was unfamiliar with so he wouldn't know where to hit it to cause the most damage.
At that point in the timeline, Kahn would not be going up against Sulu. He would be facing Styles. And despite Excelsior's superior armaments, Styles is still a bigger idiot than Kirk ever thought of being. So, when Kahn sets off Genesis, the transwarp drive fails and Spock isn't there to get it operational in the nick of time. Both ships lost.
Joe Snow the refit was “almost a completely new ship” though.
Well Done. Wich softwares do you use?
I liked the Miranda Class starship on Starfleet Command "Empires at War" It didn't have the weapons like those big heavy cruisers but I loved how quick it was and its maneuvering capabilities.
The big difference that is missed in the movie (and seems to be less so here) is the crew difference. Khan had only a dozen or zo people on a ship designed for a few hundred, excelsior/enterprise has its full complement. On khan's side, anything that gets hit, stays hit. On enterprise/excelsior there are enough engineers to reroute and makeshift repair stuff on the fly, so any lull in the fire exchange would be heavily advantageous to 'the good guys', as they can far more easily meaningfully incapacitate reliant than khan can do to them. If khan didnt get in his lucky shot at the start, enterprise would have blown him away.
soooo why does this obviously upgraded reliant not use those Mega phasers and PT launchers more??? especially because it now has them in the back-arc?
The "Great Experiment" failed if i remember correctly and id just like to ask exactly where you heard that the Miranda class had been retired by the time of the Dominion wars and where its said they were skeleton manned? I dont remember ANY reference to that in any episode of any of the shows.
Excelsior is a formidable starship against reliant and more battle worthy, reliant has no chance!!!
When I first saw this video one I was always curious about and that is was the Excelsior seen in this video under the command of Hikaru Sulu or it's first captain Captain Styles when he was ordered to go after the stolen U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701.
No problem. Yes, I would think the actual "experiment" was in fact the Transwarp drive. As for the Mirandas, you are right.
Although this is not canon, I do find the theory that the Mirandas were retired and thrown back in service for the war to be; reasonable. In fact, the Soyuz class was one of those variants you mention, but we do know from TNG that this ship class was retired by approx. 2330-2340.
the Excelsiors registry number is wrong and don't get me started on the watermark
the Excelsior's registry number isn't wrong
Why was the registry at the biginning 5 something?
Hello ! Yes, the actual transwarp experiement did fail, but the Excelsior did not. In fact it can be said that the Excelsior has proven to be the most reliable starship design even in the 24th century.
As for the Mirandas - some of those sources are the database.alpha-command site and the Daystrom Institure Technical Library site.
You will also notice in my comment, I had mentioned "some sources claim" ; )
Very nice video. This era has always been my favorite. In my opinion, the constitution refit, miranda and excelsior look better then any tng ship. I do agree with the general opinion that excelsior would win. Not because the weapons are better, because she has more internal space. With more space, there is a better chance reliant could be hitting non essential systems.
Look it makes no difference which ship khan faced if the the SHIELDS
are DOWN.It's toast.
You are totally wrong.What difference does it make if a photon torpedo
comes from a Galaxy class or a Miranda class ? It's still a photon
torpedo.
Well it does make a difference, in 80 years they develope new, stronger torpedos, so during this movie they use Mk VI Torpedos and the Voyager already uses Mk XXV Torpedos, so i think they are more effective.
@@TKDMaze92 .What difference does it make if a photon torpedo comes from a Galaxy class or a Miranda class
@@esecallum none really. A TOS era D7 still put up quite a fight against much newer Intrepid-class, namely Voyager. Heavy torpedoes and disruptors are still heavy torpedoes and disruptors no matter what fires them. It's like a relatively new Burke-class Destroyer taking on a WWI-WWII Cruiser. Newer weapons and range vs thicker armor plate and 5-8 inch guns and 21 inch torpedoes. Will still cripple and or destroy most ships today with the right crew
It is claimed by some sources that since the Miranda class ships were out of service during the Dominion War, but rushed back out into battle because the Feds needed every ship they had, that the Mirandas were only fitted with skeleton crews of 50 officers or so.
Still sad though...
True, both ships were heavily used in the Dominion Wars...however, they were used very differently. In more than one scene, the Mirandas appeared to be used as canon fodder to distract from the larger ships (Galaxy, Nebula, Excelsior, Akira).
Excelsior class would roflpwn a Miranda, even with Khan on the conn. Khan's only hope would be a decapitating strike, to hit the bridge while Excelsior's shields were down. Judging by the damage the phaser cannons did against a Connie, Excelsior wouldn't even feel it if Khan tried targeting the engine room first. And firing at the nacelles might hamstring Excelsior but she'd still have full core power for phasers.
Connie's a beautiful ship but she's a glass cannon. Excelsior's a bruiser.
Khan on the conn... nice one
No disrespect to the Enterprise, but the Excelsior would have mopped the floor with the Reliant on their first encounter. Khan couldn't hope to overpower her, even with the element of surprise.
In all honesty, I feel they should have given Kirk command of the Enterprise-B with Harrison as his first officer with an eye towards training him to be his replacement when the time came, then have that time come abruptly when Kirk sacrifices himself to save the Enterprise and her crew.
Sorry, I assumed without knowing...
Have you seen Deep Space Nine and the Dominion Wars ?
Do you remember those battle scenes with the Miranda class ships getting torn to bits ? : )
Well done..The reliant was a tough little ship.
I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS, THE ENTERPRISE B IS A BEAUTIFUL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
indeed
There's no great ship enterprise reliant and excelsior were the backbone of Starfleet anyone who says there bad will answer to us history will remember the name enterprise 'jean Luc picard'
Without the ugly flange maybe...
The main thing wrong with this video is that the fight would have never made it to the Mutara Nebula. The Excelsior would have torn the Reliant to shreds even if the Reliant had fired first with the Excelsior's shields were down. The Excelsior is considerably larger than the Enterprise was.
Considering the Excelsior is like WAY newer than the Reliant its shields and sensors would probably function inside the nebula as well as the targeting scanners. so really the reliant would stand no chance either way.
Awesome video
What animation program did you use?
None, this is footage from Star Trek Bridge Commander. With the Kobayashi Maru modification.
i'd kinda like star trek 3 to be a combination of the timeline being screwed and that episode with daystrom, except this time round daystrom is recognised and accepted by his piers and refuses to make a system commanded by any 1 man or machine.
Reliant, enterprise, Excelsior and Avenger class vessals face off against the enterprise A a fully upgraded version of the avenger commanded by kirk, the ships are then fought by klingons wishing to test their worth resulting in events leading up to a potential alliance but left open ended.
The score for Star Trek 2 was the best of any ST film by far, 1st Contact 2nd.
Honestly, it would have depended on who's at the helm, Kirk or Sulu. If it was Captain Sulu, the fight would have been over before it even began.
Really good atlernative scenario involving Uss Reliant, go kick some butt Excelsior!!!
1:18 LOVE THESE STYLE OF PHASERS thanks F S
Khan should have used Photon Torpedoes when he had the chance.
wait why did this video pop back up in my feed lol...oh I feel old now lol
Wasn't this vid Originally like a 2007 upload !?
True but we also know that the Miranda class had to have been around in the 2280's (Reliant) and must have been in continuos service at least until 2373/4 at the time of the Klingon invasion of Cardassia because Miranda's were sent in the relief force at the end of "way of the warrior" not to mention their constant apperance in TNG. You could be right thought but it would have been a short retirement for the some of the class at least.
This is excellent
i LIKE IT GOOD JOB. GLAD SOMEONE RLSE IS DOING THIS STUFF
Wtf ever happened to the Gorn? I used to play in the 90s and early 2000s. The Gorn were a a thing. Their battleships kicked butt. Heavy super structure, great shields, and plasma weapons.
good video!
Hmm, none of my battles in *Star Trek : Timelines* ever last that long. Then again, I've yet to acquire let alone come across either class of ship.
there was a star trek novel as to why transwarp was not used.
it seemed to mess with the minds of the crew.it was a good novel.
Some of you guys don't know your Star Trek tech or class of starships. The Miranda class starship that the USS Reliant is apart of DOES NOT have pulse phasers or phaser cannons. The pulse phaser makes its debut on the USS Defiant in the 24th century. The Reliant has standard phasers & photon torpedoes. Same armament as the Constitution class USS Enterprise. Check the manuals & online sources. Starfleet doesn't get pulse phasers or phaser cannons until 90 years later.
The Excelsior is the most advanced 23rd century starship. It has a more powerful warp reactor core, stronger impulse engines, stronger shields, stronger hull, better auxiliary power, stronger phaser banks, & more advanced photon torpedoes. The Miranda class has speed & maneuverability. But the Excelsior outclasses the Reliant in every other category. This is such a mismatch. Even a Starfleet cadet could beat Khan in the Excelsior. His genetically engineered intellect cannot win in a pure mismatch. Also, if the Excelsior had a fully experienced officers? Khan would still lose.
That puny ships phasers wouldn't even put a 4:16 dent into the Excelsior!
They couldn't even disable Enterprise point blank let alone this Big ship!!!
The Excelsior was a newer ship Vs. Reliant. Reliant did have more weaponry than the similar aged Enterprise as Spock explained- yet the Excelsior's newer design, was not just aesthetic, but just plainly operationally better in terms of weapons.
Was this well made for it's animation? Yes. Could the Excelsior beat it up faster than depicted? Yes.
Excelsior was newer than the same Enterprise that was in the sequel, it would be able to beat it comparatively too.
...lol, did I expect edited audio from Captain Sulu and Khan? sorry, yes! imfao.
This is great.
My two favourite ships
The Excelsior would win, only because her commander would have brains enough to raise shields when communications weren't answered
The Excelsior would have had little trouble dispatching The Reliant. For starters The Excelsior was over engineered to be a testbed class for advanced tech, has more power shields and weapons, a thicker more resilient hull with ablative armor and superior heat dissipation meaning it can stay in a fire fight far longer than could Reliant ever could. It would have been a 1 way curb stomp period assuming equally trained crews...which was not the case. The Reliant's crew were not familiar with the ship to a great extent, further lowering their chances of a win.
Where did it say any of that in the movie? Nothing in the movies stated it had ablative armor. Nothing in the movies stated it had better shields or weapons. These things are made up in tech manuals and ST wiki which usually contradicts themselves.
The Reliant is a smaller ship that can maneuver better, with two forward and two aft torpedo launchers just like the Excelsior. Based on Model and movies images, they have the same standard phaser banks with the Excelsior having more of the standard phasers. The difference is the Reliant has the phaser cannons which are more powerful than the standard phasers.
The Excelsior is built for exploration. The Reliant was built for Exploration and Defense. Why else would it have the phaser cannons, or as others have called mega phasers? It was being used with the Genesis device because it was a top secret experiment that, if stolen, could make an ultimate weapon of mass destruction. They needed a ship that was better suited in keeping others from taking the Genesis device.
,
with the shuttlebay open on the Exelsior, all it takes is a torpedo to blast her to kingdom come.
That's actually the main cargo bay. A suave captain would depressurize the bay, expelling cargo in attempts to detonate the torpedoes before they struck.
If Pat was referencing main engineering, that's located on deck 3, towards the back of the primary hull...
AND, a moment of self realization just washed over me...no wonder I lost my virginity at age 22...
I stand corrected, the intermix chambers are located on deck 3. Main engineering is located on deck 10...
My bad...
The excelsior can match the proxima class (the most powerful starship in starfleet service before excelsior) with much less of a targeting profile, the proxima having 2 secondary hulls and 4 nacelles. The excelsior would block that cheap shot from the reliant fired at the side.
Thanks for your ideas!!!
Know you are good enough to creat a new STAR TREK film.
Only your FX graphic engine are not so realistic.
Good luck for you.
Its from a game called Star Trek Bridge Commander.
I had played this game myself. I miss this game.
I'm right with ya there Washington I love that movie. Reliant vs enterprise
Excelsior's number is NCC-2000
***** BUT....changed to NCC-2000 in Star Trek VI.
It original number was NX-2000
Given the timing of the events (TWOK), the Excelsior's registry should've still been NX-2000, when it was still an experimental prototype on trial runs, not yet a commissioned ship of the line. Either way, this would've made for one hell of a shakedown cruise.
Will Vanderbilt
If it were like other shakedown cruises, most of the primary systems wouldn’t have been installed until the following Tuesday.
Nice ,
Now how about IF the NX-2000 caught up with Enterprise in ST III !
you has made this film with a sins of a solar empire mod... that you can see really good
that's about what it would be like.
A Miranda Class light cruiser taking on an Excelsior Battleship-suicide!
Awesome production. But, what is this? B-2s in Vietnam what if? Excelsior-class vs. a Miranda? Arleigh Burke DDG vs Belknap CG. Fun but not fair.
First off this video and scenario is happening like 100 years before TNG. the Excelsior is a ship thats probbly 30 years newer than the Reliant class (whatever the hell it is) i am not going to check to see exactly how "new" it is over the reliant but suffice it to say it has all new technology/shields/sensors as it was a test bed for such things. it would have easily handled the reliant in any battle situation.
I wish I could make a video like this. It would be my ass firing photons at Obama's face.
#mademyday
I assume Sulu is in command?
NX Naval Experimental - NCC Naval Commisoned Class or something close.
+Rax Savvage NCC stands for Naval Construction Contract.
In answer to your question, for one, the Excelsior would have had a different registry number it was the NX-2000.
+Ken Hill and it's probably Capt. Tyrell that told Khan where to aim the phasers so they would do the most damage. With the Excelsior being a new design, he may not have had the technical drawing and/or clearance to call up the specs to know where to fire at the ship to do the most damage.
Excelsior was only NX-2000 on her maiden voyage/trial run (after Scotty's sabotage there would be some updates) but once she entered proper service, she became NCC-2000, see the Undiscovered Country.
At the time of the battle of the Mutara Nebula, Excelsior was NX-2000, not NCC-2000.
Depends when. When Sulu was captain, it was NCC-2000.
First off, as an Observer; the Reliant lost because; (drumroll , please!) It was fighting 2 ships, both of which of a larger, more powerful, newer class. Look at the segments from (vid time wise) .09 to .54 seconds, and the ship registry number is NCC 50468, and then, from .57 seconds on, it is NCC 2000 (which would be also incorrect, until Capt. Sulu takes the Excalibur out as a non-NX experimental ship, whereupon she's rechristened NCC-2000; O.K., so maybe after Sulu has run her through her first cruise?). This leads to Khan's (and mine, as a viewer!) confusion as to which ship in the fog he's fighting with!!
As a Star-Fleet-Battles veteran of many, many battles, I can say the poor reliant is severely outclassed by the Excalibur (even only one!) type ships. Shields would be about 66% of what the Excalibur would have. Photons would be about 50%, and phasers (while the Reliant does have "gatling" close-in defense phasers capable of multiple bursts on a target) would still be only 60% of the Excalibur's potential. Then there's other resources such as shuttlecraft, boarding parties (even if Kirk only had Cadets, he would've, on the Excalibur, MANY young-guns), and just the mass of the ship to absorb whatever the shields didn't.. Khan's butt is cooked, unless some cadet ensign named Barclay takes over!
Oops, I has 'Excalibur' on the brain (had been watching "Crusade" just a bit before); That's what you get for mixing Sci-Fi shows, and having Lysdexia! Please replace "excalibur" with 'Excelsior' ,when reading my comments. No one's perfect, Eh?
The Excelsior class is a battleship (at the time of TOS movies) and later downgraded to a cruiser (in TNG). 😉 It would’ve very quickly made short work of the Reliant. 😂
First it was called NX afterwards NCC
Your premise is interesting, but you changed the parameters of the fight, not just the ship. You forgot that Khan didn't think in three dimensional terms during that battle with Kirk. Against the Excelsior with those same exact conditions, the Reliant would have been toast after the first round.
Wasnt much of a match.the reliant had the element of surprise and couldnt breach the exceliors shields with a full strike.the reliant is also 2 generations behind the excelior.
I apologise, i re-read my comment and it did sound a tad confrontational lol, i agree the Excelsior class was for sure one of the most successful designs in trek history but was the ship or the engine what was referred to as the "Great Experiment" ?, id also have to argue that the Miranda class was more reliable, spawning many variants, engaged in many roles over a longer period of time.
The engine was the great experiment. And also not really more reliable, since the excelsior class frame lasted from 2284 to 2401 in the Picard series where the
Excelsior ll class was shown. Miranda at that time was just not fit for modern service anymore but the excelsior, being a very durable and reliable frame continued to exist well after 2400.
The transwarp expiriment was not actually transwarp in the tng era. In the tmp(aka the motion picture) era ships had to go through several minutes or hours to reach a certain warp velocity. Like if you need to cruise at warp 5 you would need to accelerate from lightspeed all the way to 5. The transwarp drive was supposed to instantaneously accelerate to the warp speed you desire. Which in TNG era proved to be possible.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done indeed, But unfortunately the Reliant would of been totally destroyed and abiliverated after she fired her first shots at the Excelsior no if ands or buts about it period!.
The only way the Reliant could beat the Excelsior would be by ramming it.
Nice
Your joking right? WHO was in command of Ex “smell” cer ….that indict Styles?
That battle should of never lasted that long. A battle ship VS a heavy cruiser. It took Excelisor way to long to start firing Torpedos .
Ships are only a good as their captains and crew. Reliant was from the same development age as the constitution class and Khans great advantage was he knew the design specifications from studying them during "Space seed". If he saw Excelsior he probably would have used a different tactic or said "aw nuts" . Also Kirk did try to take Reliant back and not totally destroy it, Khan is the one who activated the Genesis device while proving he read Moby Dick too many times.
+Thomas Flansburg Look it makes no difference which ship khan faced if the the SHIELDS are DOWN.It's toast.
+Ese Callum the difference being the damage khan is able to do to the other ship...he effectively crippled the Constitution class enterprise as they were near evenly matched while the excelsior...yeah that is funny
Look it makes no difference which ship khan faced if the the SHIELDS
are DOWN.It's toast.
You are totally wrong.What difference does it make if a photon torpedo
comes from a Galaxy class or a Miranda class ? It's still a photon
torpedo.
That's you shouldn't mess with captain Sulu
In VI Kirk fought that huge guy in the Klingon prison and won because he hit him exactly where the most damage would be done Size is irrelevant in a fight and if this video played like the movie, Excelsior would've gotten the crap kicked out of her as well. But I think that we all like both ships. The way it is now is divisional to the community. Clearly it's biased as Excelsior lumbers along, Reliant flies circles around her. Reliant also has fore and aft firing pulse phaser cannons(predecessors to DS9 Defiant's),Excelsior does not. Excelsior also can't fire aft torpedoes. Make us all happy and have them just ram each other and both explode. lol
Actually, the Excelsior CAN fire aft torpedoes. It has aft torpedo launchers located directly above the main shuttlebay. Also, the Reliant doesn't have pulse cannons. It has two tubular phaser emitters.
I looked up quite a few sources before responding. Reliant is an easy answer. She DOES has four (2 fore 2 aft) PULSE phaser cannons. As well as many more armaments I'd be happy to go over with you. This is on every source of blueprints I could find.
Excelsior does NOT have aft torpedo launchers. Also on every source. The Enterprise B refit does, but that doesn't apply here. It's not surprising that your video is so lopsided and unfair-lack of knowledge, with all due respect.
It is also Excelsior that has the tubular emitters. I'd suggest familiarizing yourself with what these different weapons are. Pulse cannons are the giant, well cannon looking weapons as seen at the tips of the 1864's rollbar. Tubular are simply round hole-like openings(you can see them in action on DS9's "Paradise Lost" episode-upgraded substantially but same shape). There are also turret phasers, which Reliant does have.
I'd be happy to go over any of these topics with you if further clarification is needed.
you messed up
It's
NX-2000
not
NCC-2000
STAR TREK 3 and 4
Nope. Both registries are valid. I never specified WHEN this fictional scene occurs. In Star Trek 5, the Excelsior was re-commissioned under NCC-2000
FederationStarfleet
the NEW
USS EXCELSIOR
was NCC-2000
STAR TREK 6
NX-2000
was a failed prototype
thanks to SCOTTY
STAR TREK 3 4 5
Actually, the prototype wasn't a failure because of Scotty. The prototype was a failure BEFORE Scotty sabotaged it. He disabled the transwarp drive to allow the Enterprise to leave Spacedock, but also to save the 900+ lives on the Excelsior. After the incident, the transwarp drive was found to be completely unreliable...which is why no Federation starship was ever equipped with one, even 100 years later.
I would've liked to know exactly what "transwarp" was, because it's not likely to be the same kind used by the Borg. Probably just a faster form of warp that allows the ship to traverse much greater distances in a short period of time. In any case, quantum slipstream will blow it out of the water. Either way, the Excelsior-class (even with standard warp drive) proved its worth in the 23rd and 24th centuries, so all's well that ends well.
Its not the ship its the crew!
Excelsior´s Number is NX-2000
No contest Excelsior easy victory
Good video, but I have to disagree with all the Excelsior would have torn the Reliant to pieces. The Reliant has two forward and two aft pulse phaser cannons. Just because the Excelsior is new does not mean her weapons were that much more advanced. It is no way her phasers were more powerful than Reliant's phaser cannons. Plus the Reliant is more maneuverable.
I would say that in a lot of areas the Excelsior's technology was no different than Reliant's due to the failure of it's trans warp drive. Being new does not mean anything. Enterprise A got shot all to crap by Chang's BOP and survived. Enterprise D got shot up by an old BOP and was destroyed. I don't think Captain Style's could have handled Khan.
Remember the USS Defiant when you think a larger ship is better. The Defiant kicked the butt of larder advanced ships.
Sorry, but besides being a much larger dreadnought, the original Excelsior had type 8 phaser banks and more of them, 3 banks of torpedo launchers, and far more powerful shields than the Constitution class refit. The Excelsior class made up the bulk of ships and was backbone of Star Fleet in the "next generation" and Dominion war upgrades made it competitive in battle with the freakin Defiant. More than a match for a poor old Miranda class with an inexperienced captain. Yes, we are arguing about fictional ships, but I'm coming from the official technical specs.
What official specs are we talking about? I do not go by official specs. The ones written by the people who worked behind the scenes are flawed and contradict themselves from one publication to the next. I go by comments and visuals on this debate. The standard phaser banks on the Reliant are visually the same as those on the Reliant. The phaser cannons are obviously more powerful. Spock states in Wrath of Kahn when referring to the Reliant “She can still outrun us and outgun us.” The Reliant has two visual forward torpedo launchers and two aft. The same can be said for the Excelsior. The Phaser cannons are the true difference in the two ships. The Reliant, due to its smaller size can do to the Excelsior what Spock said above. The Excelsior is just a beefed up explorer with a few more standard phaser emitters that you see on the constitution class. Excelsior cannot run with the Defiant. Wof kicked the USS Lakota’s butt and that ship, Lokata, had major upgrades.
cowboyborn First, yes, different official tech manuals and such are inconsistent, but they don't differ that wildly. The most neutral aggregate source for arguing trek nerds would be the big wiki - Memory Alpha.
Second, you're arguing with an old Trekkie and industrial designer who loves sci-fi specifically because of the imagined technology. I've built lots of large ST models as a teen, including the Constitution class refit, Reliant, and Excelsior. Beyond having more and newer phaser banks, there are 3 sets of torpedo launchers on the standard Excelsior - in the neck, flanking the deflector dish, and aft below the secondary hull. Phaser "cannons" were never implemented until the Defiant and later on the Mirandas, but not when Khan had the Reliant. What you see on the Reliant are just externally mounted phasers on the upper superstructure.
Third, the (cruiser) Constitution and slightly small (frigate) Miranda class are fairly evenly matched and only because of Khan's sneak attack did the Enterprise become crippled enough to be out run and gunned as Spock said. The (battle cruiser) Excelsior is almost 2x the length of the Enterprise with far more tonnage. Even if this bigger and far newer ship somehow only had equal shields and weapons to the old Reliant, it can take so much more damage just by mass alone. The smallish Miranda class and Defiant are in no way similar in combat capability. The only reason the small but extremely armed Defiant barely beat the upgraded Lakota was because the Defiant was even further upgraded with ablative armor and the Lakota didn't want to use it's quantum torpedoes. Seriously, if all the events in "wrath of khan" happened with Kirk commanding the Excelsior, he would have had a huge advantage - literally huge.
Phrancis5 I am an old Trekkie also and I have been building, still do, and creating kit bashes for a long time myself. As Scottie said why would you want that bucket of bolts. Just because you have the same number of STANDARD PHASERS does not make you a better fighting ship. The B-17 had more 50 caliber machine guns than a P-51 Mustang, but head to head I would rather be in that P-51. With it's phaser cannons the Miranda has the advantage. the Miranda was built for more than exploration. Like Spock said in the movie, "She can still outgun us."
The Defiant would have defeated the Lakota without the ablative armor. She was built to fight the Borg. The quatum torpedoes would not have made a difference, like Kira said "They are worse, probably one shot would finish her."
I read an article last night by Adam Buckner who created the USS Centaur and he said the people who wrote the manuals made plenty of mistakes about his ship.
In the end you believe the Trek world the way you want to and I will look at it the way I want. That is the fun of it.
cowboyborn Newer things tend to have more capabilities but also tend to be more complex, like the easily sabotaged experimental transwarp drive that Scotty was referring to. Besides, that’s just one old engineer’s opinion. It’s not like he was any more proficient than later engineers and he freely admits that much of his “miracle worker” status comes from over estimations in repair times. (RIP James Doohan) That said, the Excelsior class wouldn’t have been that prolific if it wasn’t an effective design.
While I understand your point about the B-17 vs P-51, the logical flaw is in assuming a single big unmaneuvering long range tactical daylight bomber was ever meant to duel with fighters. All those guns were meant strictly for defense and in conjunction with large formations of bombers. (not that it worked very well) You’re avoiding the logical analogy that the series is based on. NAVAL COMBAT. You know, empire building with your fleet or gun-boat diplomacy. When was the last time an Admiral commanded a bomber? And when was the last time an older frigate stood a fair fight one on one with a newer battlecruiser? Acceleration and maneuverability would be the main advantage of a smaller ship and in both “wrath of khan” engagements it was either a ship to ship slug-fest or blindly feeling around in a nebula with no shields and manual targeting. Maneuverability wasn’t a big factor. Again, the Enterprise was out-gunned because they were more crippled, not because a standard frigate was more powerful than a standard cruiser.
No, the Excelsior most definitely had more torpedo launchers and more phasers - even if they used the same standard phaser technology, they were newer more powerful type 8 phasers. We still use the basic technology of gunpowder and lead, but you wouldn’t want a musket to fight the Taliban. And seriously, in what logical world (imagined or real) would a smaller older ship be equipped with equal or more powerful weapons? The Defiant would be the purpose built exception, but Mirandas were standard general purpose ships. It was on a freakin scientific survey mission when Khan captured it. And no, the upgraded Lakota stood a very good chance of taking out the Defiant. That’s why the rogue admiral specifically sent it in the first place. It’s not like he didn’t know about the Defiant’s combat capabilities. What he and the Lakota’s captain didn’t know about was the Defiant’s upgraded armor, which made the difference.
Sorry, but Adam Buckner was but one of many visual effects people on the franchise and the only fair and neutral database would be the big ST wiki, where Mirandas are not as powerful as you claim. I think most trekkies would agree with that assessment and it seems so in the comments. Newfangled disruptive technologies and overly powerful weapons in the rest of the franchise were never a factor in “wrath of khan” ship to ship combat - at least until the Genesis detonation. We might be arguing about imaginary ships, but I’m coming from the standpoint of a logical progression in weapons development and ship classes in ST cannon. Sure, this is the internet and Sci-fi, so you can say or imagine whatever you want. Live long and may the force be with you!