@@cz19856 i play the London (shame! I know) but i never play it positionally. I always end up attacking on the king side. There are a lot of tactics but it leaves terrible weaknesses on the queen side where you usually have to castle if you do. The counter play is rough and super sharp positions PROVING THE LONDON ISNT BORING
5:40 I think I've played the h4 idea as white before. Trying to break open the black king side, castle long, and win via the open h file. I think Ginger GM/Simon introduced me to this idea via his video Edit: quick side note, usually I don't think I even castle in that system. Just king up to either e2 or d2 to connect the Rooks and go for the attack
Yeah, HingerGMhad a video on this line with h4 but he also pointed out counterplay on the queen side for black. These are really instructional games though
If only people who cheat were fans of Jonathan...maybe they would heed his recommendation to not cheat! May I say that, as a 1600 on lichess, a lot of the comments that Jonathan makes about how he sees (or does not see) the position, and how he sees (or does not see) how to proceed, or when he wonders how the heck he's going to get crushed, these comments are similar to how I feel when I play someone who is stronger than I am. And I suppose that makes some sense; it shows that we all play (feel) the same when we are faced with a much stronger opponent. Thanks for posting this, Jonathan!
@@davorinvilic6763 As "dead" as black's bishop on b7. No, Jonathan was looking exactly for the weird engine minded positional compensation, when talked about piece sacrifice. He was in too much of a hurry to expose cheating and overlooked simple tactic. It would be funny if his opponent defeated him without any engine help.))
12:30 is a perfect example of how engines have changed how people learn chess. Without a Stockfish, no chess player would ever think sacrificing a piece to have that strong pawn and paralyzing the position was a real move because the benefit is only seen like 8 moves later. Honestly, one of Magnus’ advantages was he saw how pieces worked in crazy ways and if engines hadn’t been around to help younger players learn better ways of play (AlphaZero teaching us “eff them pawns”), im not sure anyone wouldve ever caught up to him.
That's the end of the world game. Totally hopeless, you know you can't avoid the inevitable ending and you wonder what went wrong and why you haven't resigned yet. Then you see R2D2 is behind all the madness. R2 is still wondering why he got flagged for unfair play.
I wonder how those cheat detection systems work when it is not straight up top 3 best moves from Stockfish, i always analyse games after finishing them and i oftenly face some opponents who play ridiculous sequences of engine moves in middle game and then play poor technique in an endgame (kinda to lower the accuarcy i guess?) So that feeling that some of "smart" cheaters could not be caught is annoying me
One powerful system is determining how accurate you play normally (how suboptimal your noncheating moves are). Since this is normally a constant, any drastic increase in accuracy suggests you are using assistance.
@@yzfool6639 what if you know a lot of theory in the Roy Lopez as black but if someone plays any other opening you collapse... This in theory would mean whenever you play against the Roy Lopez you would have a vastly more accurate game than any other opening? I ask this because I only know a few openings at the moment and I often score high 80s low 90s and sometimes even mid to high 90s if they fall into a theoretical trap I'm aware of. But then when I get hit with a lot of d4 openings I know nothing and score very low... Yet I've never been banned for cheating as I am not cheating. So they can tell it seems
I played OTB classical once as white with Ne5 as well vs IM and know this h4 idea too, but good line against it is same setup with Nc6 instead of Nbd7 and then go c4 (instead of b6) or jump Ne4, black has 0 problems after that. That's why I prefer Nbd2 (not Ne5) giving black chance to take Bxf4 with some positional play, of course black equalizes there as well if he knows what he's doing (exchange Ba6)
As a 1700 on lichess with 1000+ games with the London, h4 and the king side attack is a great weapon. Pretty sure I started doing it after watching so many GMs have the same sort of idea (in general, not just the London). I blame Levy's recaps.
I mean that knight move just around 1130 appeared pretty obvious to me, although to be fair I was more on f7 than g6 and winning materiel rather than that crazy chain that I completely didnt notice.
Im amateur player of London opening and almost never make short castle, and play like this kind of set up with move forward my pawn king side attack against short castle black.
"I'm going to get crushed, but I don't know how." Don't worry, neither does the 400 elo human that's playing those moves that the computer is telling him to play.
So off the top of my head, at the final position, before pushing the e pawn, why not sacrifice the knight on h7 and then just move the rook to f8? Queen defends g7, and your rook is definitely worth less than that supported black bishop. He'll have to sacrifice a lot of material to win that, and then if he is not following the engine all the time, might blunder.
you won't get caught on lichess, but on chess cm you surely will, cause they very often pair you with their bots disguised as real players that will b an you in the middle of the match... those bots always have a short name followed by 2 numbers, have no pic, they played a bunch of games around 500-1000, with 50% winnings and 50% losses... and they will never interact with you in the chat, no matter how much you try... those bots not only serve to inflate their traffic, but also to detect cheating... so if you see this kind of profile, just abort the game... but you will have to do that so many times in a row that the best thing is not playing there... if there's something worse than using engine against human players is deceptively fooling your users into thinking they are playing against another person, when actually is a bot that play weird inhuman moves... it's boring... now they're saying they doubled the number of players around (5 million+) in just 1 month, because of a chess boom that for no reason just happened from december to january... but of course it's all marketing and their new bots!
Funny: I have just been watching a video 30 minutes ago, in which Leela crushed Stockfish 8 in the Colle System with the same ideas of h4 followed by Rh1 - h3 - g3 and following sharp tactical attack on the King's side. London and Colle actually are attacking systems, that is what I have found out after years of exploring these 2 openings. And yes: Cheating sucks. I quit Correspondence Chess because of that.
I'm also curious how the game would have ended. You could just play the final position against stockfish. I guess stockfish needed revenge after all the times you humiliated it. Love your content, keep up the good videos 🙂
Interesting that the cheat detection came in almost immediately after the opponent recaptured on g6 with the pawn rather than the queen. Can't imagine any human ever taking back with the pawn there... Moral of the story: don't castle in the London until your opponent has castled based on this evidence. Also: don't play on that other site. The recent boom in chess has obviously also spawned a boom in cheaters who want to emulate their new heroes.
Cheaters should be allowed only if you can hear their ridiculous rationalizations for why its “not really cheating” in their case. Especially te guy i played the other day with 100% accuracy and *4* average centipawn loss 😂
Cheating in chess is boring. It's taking an activity of intellect and making a menial task. What's the point? And it is frustrating the sheer volume of cheaters that seem to exist now. Many seem to toggle and some can play very fast. It's just annoying though when you want a battle of intellect to have some idiot turn it into a battle of computational resources.
I've played against cheaters before but I have a slightly different perspective. At the time it is frustrating this is true but like what Jonathan has done here is turned it into a learning experience. At the end of the day losing to a computer doesn't mean anything but learning from it is where the fun starts
@Allan Morella in fast time formats most of us don't have time and effort to memorize a monstrous amount of deep patterns. Even the best players in the world will get crushed. If we want to learn from an engine we will play it without a time control. So you can try to glorify it but it's generally considered disgusting. Learning to identify cheaters is the best thing to learn from it. Time control matters.
@@gregorymorse8423 sorry. I wasn't trying to glorify it. Just saying we can try to take something positive away from it by looking at the situation differently. Maybe not necessarily learning a line in depth but a pattern or idea that we can use in the future
Please don't get me wrong I wasn't trying to disagree with you at all. In my experience dealing with cheaters in the past i have actually learnt quite a few things. I do get frustrated by it I'm nothing special, but every so often that past loss learnings have helped turn a game im playing into a win
@Allan Morella yea i get your point and echoing the spirit of what Jonathan said. My only point is the faster the time control, the more disgusting cheating is. I can't imagine why someone would waste their time cheating either. It's not like you can make money off that. Like a sick pleasure of secretly stealing others enjoyment. I can't imagine how stupid the psychology behind such people is.
I'm not a very good chess player or avid consumer of videos, but I remember this Carlsen London game that stuck in my mind because of the very aggressive attack he used on the king side. I'm not sure if it's particularly novel, but I was reminded of it. ruclips.net/video/PNEVfwmRczw/видео.html
Based on the moves alone there was no evidence of cheating, so Chesscom must have picked up on something else suspicious he was doing. He seemed to really have tilted you because what you called a sacrifice was simply a favorable exchange of pieces that won a pawn and sustained the attack on your king.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Most honorable London player
h4 is already a red flag that he's not a legit London player
@@cz19856 i play the London (shame! I know) but i never play it positionally. I always end up attacking on the king side.
There are a lot of tactics but it leaves terrible weaknesses on the queen side where you usually have to castle if you do.
The counter play is rough and super sharp positions PROVING THE LONDON ISNT BORING
@@MyBiPolarBearMax copium
@@MyBiPolarBearMax imagine playing the london
there are two types of London players: The ones who hate jokes about london players and the ones who make jokes about london players
5:40 I think I've played the h4 idea as white before. Trying to break open the black king side, castle long, and win via the open h file. I think Ginger GM/Simon introduced me to this idea via his video
Edit: quick side note, usually I don't think I even castle in that system. Just king up to either e2 or d2 to connect the Rooks and go for the attack
Have you tried the duck chess mode? Is really fun 🦆
Yeah, HingerGMhad a video on this line with h4 but he also pointed out counterplay on the queen side for black. These are really instructional games though
@@hazelelloyd Oh yeah. So many ideas to pickup here :) gotta love chess
I think gingergm has a lot on the London with White playing h5
12:00 your oponent didn't sac a piece, it was a knight for bishop, you can count the pieces, you both have 2
I just start to imagine the cheater. His joy, or hers: "I am winning!" When in reality this person is not even part of the game.
Your fantasy is soo boring, lol
@Molb0rg hurt much?
If only people who cheat were fans of Jonathan...maybe they would heed his recommendation to not cheat!
May I say that, as a 1600 on lichess, a lot of the comments that Jonathan makes about how he sees (or does not see) the position, and how he sees (or does not see) how to proceed, or when he wonders how the heck he's going to get crushed, these comments are similar to how I feel when I play someone who is stronger than I am. And I suppose that makes some sense; it shows that we all play (feel) the same when we are faced with a much stronger opponent. Thanks for posting this, Jonathan!
12:07 He didn't sacrifice a piece, he took on d6 your bishop. He was up a pawn and still had a strong attack.
white bishop is now "dead" for long time. I think "sacrifice" piece in that way (activity).
@@davorinvilic6763 As "dead" as black's bishop on b7. No, Jonathan was looking exactly for the weird engine minded positional compensation, when talked about piece sacrifice. He was in too much of a hurry to expose cheating and overlooked simple tactic. It would be funny if his opponent defeated him without any engine help.))
12:30 is a perfect example of how engines have changed how people learn chess.
Without a Stockfish, no chess player would ever think sacrificing a piece to have that strong pawn and paralyzing the position was a real move because the benefit is only seen like 8 moves later.
Honestly, one of Magnus’ advantages was he saw how pieces worked in crazy ways and if engines hadn’t been around to help younger players learn better ways of play (AlphaZero teaching us “eff them pawns”), im not sure anyone wouldve ever caught up to him.
There is no piece sac at all though in this game. White gets the piece back right away. White just won a pawn.
You clearly haven't watched Tal's games. Sacrificing a piece when your opponent's pieces were a little out of play was just his game.
That was crushing. Just slipping into a worse position then to a almost hopeless one with no meaningful counterplay.
That's the end of the world game. Totally hopeless, you know you can't avoid the inevitable ending and you wonder what went wrong and why you haven't resigned yet. Then you see R2D2 is behind all the madness. R2 is still wondering why he got flagged for unfair play.
9:10 lol at the computer showing the checkmate for *black*
@@sambelld1 What?
I wonder how those cheat detection systems work when it is not straight up top 3 best moves from Stockfish, i always analyse games after finishing them and i oftenly face some opponents who play ridiculous sequences of engine moves in middle game and then play poor technique in an endgame (kinda to lower the accuarcy i guess?)
So that feeling that some of "smart" cheaters could not be caught is annoying me
I have the same curiosity.
That's what puts me off playing too - the fact that people might use their engines only at particular times.
One powerful system is determining how accurate you play normally (how suboptimal your noncheating moves are). Since this is normally a constant, any drastic increase in accuracy suggests you are using assistance.
@@yzfool6639 what if you know a lot of theory in the Roy Lopez as black but if someone plays any other opening you collapse... This in theory would mean whenever you play against the Roy Lopez you would have a vastly more accurate game than any other opening? I ask this because I only know a few openings at the moment and I often score high 80s low 90s and sometimes even mid to high 90s if they fall into a theoretical trap I'm aware of. But then when I get hit with a lot of d4 openings I know nothing and score very low... Yet I've never been banned for cheating as I am not cheating. So they can tell it seems
It works when someone with clout reports them, eg Jonathan.?
I don't know.
It looks like if you cheat, you'll get lot of attention.
Looking at the analysis the larger jumps are down to JS's bad moves.
I played OTB classical once as white with Ne5 as well vs IM and know this h4 idea too, but good line against it is same setup with Nc6 instead of Nbd7 and then go c4 (instead of b6) or jump Ne4, black has 0 problems after that. That's why I prefer Nbd2 (not Ne5) giving black chance to take Bxf4 with some positional play, of course black equalizes there as well if he knows what he's doing (exchange Ba6)
Position play? 🤮
It does have its positives. Because we learn a lot more from a loss than a win. And this was very interesting content
In saying that if we wanted to get crushed by stockfish we can just do that knowingly. And not against a cheater.
As a 1700 on lichess with 1000+ games with the London, h4 and the king side attack is a great weapon. Pretty sure I started doing it after watching so many GMs have the same sort of idea (in general, not just the London). I blame Levy's recaps.
Jonathon had too much coffee before filming this video. Chit chat to the max.
I mean that knight move just around 1130 appeared pretty obvious to me, although to be fair I was more on f7 than g6 and winning materiel rather than that crazy chain that I completely didnt notice.
Im amateur player of London opening and almost never make short castle, and play like this kind of set up with move forward my pawn king side attack against short castle black.
"I'm going to get crushed, but I don't know how." Don't worry, neither does the 400 elo human that's playing those moves that the computer is telling him to play.
So off the top of my head, at the final position, before pushing the e pawn, why not sacrifice the knight on h7 and then just move the rook to f8? Queen defends g7, and your rook is definitely worth less than that supported black bishop. He'll have to sacrifice a lot of material to win that, and then if he is not following the engine all the time, might blunder.
I hate to tell you, but that is a well known trap line from Gata Kamsky, and has been in the Public knowledge since the 90's.
Jonathan Schantz kind of reminds me of Matt Walsh from the Daily Wire.
you won't get caught on lichess, but on chess cm you surely will, cause they very often pair you with their bots disguised as real players that will b an you in the middle of the match... those bots always have a short name followed by 2 numbers, have no pic, they played a bunch of games around 500-1000, with 50% winnings and 50% losses... and they will never interact with you in the chat, no matter how much you try... those bots not only serve to inflate their traffic, but also to detect cheating... so if you see this kind of profile, just abort the game... but you will have to do that so many times in a row that the best thing is not playing there... if there's something worse than using engine against human players is deceptively fooling your users into thinking they are playing against another person, when actually is a bot that play weird inhuman moves... it's boring... now they're saying they doubled the number of players around (5 million+) in just 1 month, because of a chess boom that for no reason just happened from december to january... but of course it's all marketing and their new bots!
This tells me I need to watch out for YOU.
Just think twice before castling to keep up the king..where he is safe...
Funny: I have just been watching a video 30 minutes ago, in which Leela crushed Stockfish 8 in the Colle System with the same ideas of h4 followed by Rh1 - h3 - g3 and following sharp tactical attack on the King's side.
London and Colle actually are attacking systems, that is what I have found out after years of exploring these 2 openings.
And yes: Cheating sucks. I quit Correspondence Chess because of that.
You couls have just asked a master and save yourself two years. The Queen Pawn games are all attacking systems.
I love cheating at chess. To beat stock fish.
Jon has never heard of Harry?
I'm also curious how the game would have ended. You could just play the final position against stockfish. I guess stockfish needed revenge after all the times you humiliated it. Love your content, keep up the good videos 🙂
uhhhhhh? at about 7:11: "white is able to remove this bishop" as white takes the horsey...huh?
Interesting that the cheat detection came in almost immediately after the opponent recaptured on g6 with the pawn rather than the queen. Can't imagine any human ever taking back with the pawn there...
Moral of the story: don't castle in the London until your opponent has castled based on this evidence. Also: don't play on that other site. The recent boom in chess has obviously also spawned a boom in cheaters who want to emulate their new heroes.
11:26 and then he sacrifices THE KNIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!
90% have been playing against a cheater before. The 10%, who never played a cheater before, ARE the cheaters themselves
Pretty sure thats not how it works
imagine being a cheater and having to play the london system... you kind of played yourself!
Amen!
Aww man I feel soo bad for you man. Cheaters suck
Cheaters should be allowed only if you can hear their ridiculous rationalizations for why its “not really cheating” in their case.
Especially te guy i played the other day with 100% accuracy and *4* average centipawn loss 😂
You forgot to mention he beat you with the Scholar's Mate.
Cheating in chess is boring. It's taking an activity of intellect and making a menial task. What's the point? And it is frustrating the sheer volume of cheaters that seem to exist now. Many seem to toggle and some can play very fast. It's just annoying though when you want a battle of intellect to have some idiot turn it into a battle of computational resources.
I've played against cheaters before but I have a slightly different perspective. At the time it is frustrating this is true but like what Jonathan has done here is turned it into a learning experience. At the end of the day losing to a computer doesn't mean anything but learning from it is where the fun starts
@Allan Morella in fast time formats most of us don't have time and effort to memorize a monstrous amount of deep patterns. Even the best players in the world will get crushed. If we want to learn from an engine we will play it without a time control. So you can try to glorify it but it's generally considered disgusting. Learning to identify cheaters is the best thing to learn from it. Time control matters.
@@gregorymorse8423 sorry. I wasn't trying to glorify it. Just saying we can try to take something positive away from it by looking at the situation differently. Maybe not necessarily learning a line in depth but a pattern or idea that we can use in the future
Please don't get me wrong I wasn't trying to disagree with you at all. In my experience dealing with cheaters in the past i have actually learnt quite a few things. I do get frustrated by it I'm nothing special, but every so often that past loss learnings have helped turn a game im playing into a win
@Allan Morella yea i get your point and echoing the spirit of what Jonathan said. My only point is the faster the time control, the more disgusting cheating is. I can't imagine why someone would waste their time cheating either. It's not like you can make money off that. Like a sick pleasure of secretly stealing others enjoyment. I can't imagine how stupid the psychology behind such people is.
What is the London system?
its an opening used mainly by white, i encourage you to look it up there are many many videos on it
Cheating in the London is funny because you just copy paste the same opening moves no matter what your opponent does anyway lol
i've played this game as white until move 11 not cheating of course.
the game starts about 2:33.....you can skip the excess yapping about cheating
I'm not a very good chess player or avid consumer of videos, but I remember this Carlsen London game that stuck in my mind because of the very aggressive attack he used on the king side. I'm not sure if it's particularly novel, but I was reminded of it. ruclips.net/video/PNEVfwmRczw/видео.html
I mean if you make everyone not want to play chess by cheating you could become the world champion!
In the future there will be AI chip implantation allowing chess players to have a stockfish cpu inside their brains. You also need some RAMs too. LOL
Is that really enough evidence of cheating?
I am not furious playing a cheater. But I hate people calling me a cheater.
Based on the moves alone there was no evidence of cheating, so Chesscom must have picked up on something else suspicious he was doing. He seemed to really have tilted you because what you called a sacrifice was simply a favorable exchange of pieces that won a pawn and sustained the attack on your king.
I cheated in you game today , hehe i was sathvik
Day 47 of asking for a video on my funny English lines
I'm sorry, I don't see how or where your opponent cheated!!! Please explain.😇
Jonathan and all chessplayers, you know there is no Stockfish in hell?
Only JESUS can help you.
Think about it. Greetings from Germany.
Amen!!!
@@wolvesdengaming9358 you are welcome, brother
Tow dirties londn system and cheating
Someone played that h4 + rook lift to h3 combo on me recently, got totally crushed, my kNight did end up on e8 not helping, oh boy!
Knight on f8 and there's no mate classic saying
Firstttt
3rd 😂😂
I'm a dirty London Player 😉
Is there any other kind of London player?
@@TeaAndCreampie No
1st comment 🔥
Nice