VDH carries keys with randoms who probably don't know what their CC buttons are. Prot pal carries keys where people know what they are doing but will still need aid. Side note: The whole 'needing externals' thing would probably not be an issue if WoW bosses had any shred of consistency with their casts. Take Yazma for example: Wracking pain can 100% be solved with someone's own defensives even in high keys, the issue is when she decides to wracking pain the same player three times back to back instead of targeting literally anyone else.
I agree, but I would also say to not underestimate the offhealing of prot when your healer doesn't know what they are doing lol. So useful in mid range keys where you often run into questionable healers.
The counter play to wracking pain should be to have it interruptible… oh wait it was like that until blizz changed it 🤡 🤡🤡 blizz actually eats crayons for breakfast
@@Odvic the issue is their philosophy on raising the difficulty of the dungeon by giving you the middle finger as your climb higher in key level with unavoidable RNG damage that is not reasonably tuned because they cba to do their job.
VDH is better for 98% of players because they alone can carry a key to victory since people can't figure out HOW TO PRESS THEIR FUCKING INTERRUPT BUTTON WHEN A GIANT CASTBAR APPEARS ON SCREEN.. but anyways yeah.
Yes but if you are running into One shot checks, Prot paladin will allow you to time higher keys especially on tyrannical. There is an argument to be made that its key dependant and DH has more of an advantage on forti and pala on tyran
the argument is, yes it can carry groups, but only when people shut their brains off and forget they can kick/stun/interrupt too.... like no reason for a VDH to carry 20 kick rotation lol
@@user-jc3vy6tc1n why are you confused? I am saying, that much weight normally doesnt have to fall on one class.. if people know their kick/stop rotations, paladin is just fine in that aspect and it brings survivability to the group. Otherwise, people would not be able to time world first keys with paladin right? Kicks and stuns coming from one class is nice and it opens other dps to do other things however, normally in a high key scenario it is personal responsibility to know your class in and out, this includes kick/stop rotations as well! Hopefully, this was a bit more clear
Great review. I still can’t stand the way consecration plays. They need to make it like an aura that follows you or something along those lines. Same for death and decay on BDK. I likely won’t go much higher than 25s this season so I’ll likely stick with the VDH. But I will focus on getting more practice in on the pally as I can see it’s consistently #1 or 2 every season.
consecration play style does not bother me that much. I got used to being in it.... it does not limit movement as much as people think it does. When you have to be out of your consecration, you pop personals if its a big pull or boss movement and problem solved
@@TiltedGamingYT yeah I honestly just haven’t spent enough time tanking with pally I don’t doubt you get use to it. It’s always a pretty strong tank in both raid and M+ so I should probably start getting the reps in
@@johnmcgahey16 i think if you enjoy the utility but strong tank playstyle, you should give it a shot... until you try it yourself, dont limit yourself to "consecration playstyle is bad"
hardest part about cons is remembering to use it. Beginning of season i was like 20% uptime, and now im up to about 40. Im 3400 rn lmao@@TiltedGamingYT
@@quintit Ehh, thats not an issue for me. Consecration is a big part of pala tanking. If you know the class, you'd remember the consecration. Having said that, it does take some time to get used to it. I am 3300+, so I am up there as well.
I said the same thing about them season 1 when prot warriors were crazy. Sure enough by mid season they were considered the better tank. Avengers shield is crazy strong with being an interrupt. Not to mention better team play with the pally buffs and crazy aoe.
Andy, brewmaster says hi :-( love ya vids man. Hope someone at blizz looks at brew and give them a look over. VDH definitely is ruling the roost right now. How does the dk fare though vs vdh?
VDH is definitely S tier in a group that knows what they’re doing, love tanking on VDH. That said…in most pugs I’d rather be on my pally since I can heal, brez, sac, bof, bop, not to mention all the interrupts.
I'd say its also key dependant, for example tott i feel like i can solo carry even the worst group right now with vengeance, you have like 10 sigils up for any dangerous pull
It depends, VDH is absolutely bonkers if everyone is on high skill level but if the tanker needs to help the no brain dps squad then ofc , the advantage is there
Prot Pally - Mage, Aug, & Havoc - Disc Priest .... that's the new meta after this last tuning patch. Resto Druid might be a solid option in specific keys as well. Mark of the Wild is incredibly strong.
I feel like this vid was a day too late, with the changes to mage, can imagine having mass barrier in the key and mages innate tankinesss is more important than any player in a comp now, frost mage will likely be the best spec for m+ especially linking with an aug which seems mandatory for healers. As long as theres an aug and a mage as well as demon hunter (for brand, kicks, dps and magic dr+darkness), can imagine thats what well be getting as the meta comp, likely to see disc priest too, could be way off tho so well see.
I only pay up to about +22 and always with randoms. You simply cannot beat Prot paladin in that set-up, I have saved so many keys that would have failed on VDH because my DPS or healer are slacking majorly. BoP, Sac, off healing, poison dispel. Just can't beat it.
@@danieltodd9038 legendary will not make BDK meta. BDK's problem is eventually at a certain key level they just get one-shot, and Fyralath actually nerfs your survivability because you are rooted and channeling for 3 seconds, so you can't Death Strike.
@@danieltodd9038it does dmg and survives, but it doesnt provide as much group utility/survivability. BDK should deal twice as much dmg to be considered in very high keys.
@@danieltodd9038it won’t. It doesn’t bring enough utility / control compared to the other 2 meta tanks. For it to be meta it would need to be so insanely overtuned with dps it would get hotfixed nerfed - we are talking 30-50k dps higher to be
DPS for tanks is nice, but it's not what we are there for. Also, isn't divine toll an additional AOE interrupt for prot pallys? Along with blinding light.
tankier? nah. As prot pala im currently @ 110% avoidence which means i block 70 of the hits meaning they deal 37% less damage per hit plus more armor which makes hits lower already so the damage is more consistent. And then on op there is 30+ pary and dodge which is 100% damage reduction. Damage is trash tho. Since they moved everything to holy damage the damage barely scales. plus i party heal a LOT saving the situation several times a instance.
According to simulationcraft, Vengeance is the tankiest tank in a sustained single target fight, Prot pally's a close second. That's a physical damage patchwerk fight, not clear how well that translates to M+ tankiness. I feel like there's only a few scary places as a tank this season (Tyr, Oakheart, Dulhu, Soulbound Goliath), I don't think tank tankiness is a bottleneck for the best groups right now with either tank.
@@asdf198 Problem i see on most pala tanks is not making sure block+dodge+ parry is 100%+ that maters a LOT. Crit is really important for prot as crit gives a huge boost in parrt. iu have 41% crit but also 33% parry. thats 36% of the sameg being blocked 100% and the rest is blocked for 37-39% after the armor reduction. that makes damage reduction a lot more then most other tanks. if you fail to set it up right gear wise you are taking a lot of damage spikes that arent pretty. plus the right tallents where you get absorb shields matter too. I see many go for dps which is irrelevant or focus on consecration damage and healing which is so minimal its irrelevant. 1k heals with a million health lol. i have bin a pala main tank for almost 2 decades now and i come from a time where strategyes on gearing matterd a lot more then it does now as the difficulty shifted. you get away with a lot now but in the hard content it matters.
That’s not how a avoidance on tanks works anymore. It’s not additiv, the get checked after each other. Basically layers,not parts of a whole avoidance number.
@@doublem7709 yes but if a DH can solo cc a whole pack until it’s dead or pala can give u a defensive/heal and carry a bad healer or dps that doesn’t press buttons it can be the difference between failing and timing keys sadly. I was loyal to my spec every patch since legion but finally gave it up and already reaping the benefits carrying pug brains
![Tee Grizzley - Detroit (Feat. 42 Dugg) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aeKfTtt0x14/mqdefault.jpg)
give my prot warrior twilight devastation and we'll call it all even
Leave the effect, rename it something cool like “Decimation Roar” or something and give it to us imo.
How bout nah @@draegin2566give that to Warr, or Guardian, they're the roaring tanks 😂
VDH carries keys with randoms who probably don't know what their CC buttons are.
Prot pal carries keys where people know what they are doing but will still need aid.
Side note: The whole 'needing externals' thing would probably not be an issue if WoW bosses had any shred of consistency with their casts. Take Yazma for example: Wracking pain can 100% be solved with someone's own defensives even in high keys, the issue is when she decides to wracking pain the same player three times back to back instead of targeting literally anyone else.
I agree, but I would also say to not underestimate the offhealing of prot when your healer doesn't know what they are doing lol. So useful in mid range keys where you often run into questionable healers.
It's so dumb how polarized it can be. Targets warrior? Spell reflect and laugh. Targets shaman? Hope you saved ankh
The counter play to wracking pain should be to have it interruptible… oh wait it was like that until blizz changed it 🤡 🤡🤡 blizz actually eats crayons for breakfast
@@TheCherrypoppinI mean aren’t players timing it with no problem though?
@@Odvic the issue is their philosophy on raising the difficulty of the dungeon by giving you the middle finger as your climb higher in key level with unavoidable RNG damage that is not reasonably tuned because they cba to do their job.
VDH is better for 98% of players because they alone can carry a key to victory since people can't figure out HOW TO PRESS THEIR FUCKING INTERRUPT BUTTON WHEN A GIANT CASTBAR APPEARS ON SCREEN.. but anyways yeah.
This.
Idk man, pala is insane for sure but double silence, double grasp, fear and stun is INSANE for these keys; straight carries especially on fortified.
Yes but if you are running into One shot checks, Prot paladin will allow you to time higher keys especially on tyrannical.
There is an argument to be made that its key dependant and DH has more of an advantage on forti and pala on tyran
the argument is, yes it can carry groups, but only when people shut their brains off and forget they can kick/stun/interrupt too.... like no reason for a VDH to carry 20 kick rotation lol
@@TiltedGamingYT what are you saying?
I am so confused. The fact is people do shut off their brain in 20s so what precisely is your point.
@@user-jc3vy6tc1n why are you confused? I am saying, that much weight normally doesnt have to fall on one class.. if people know their kick/stop rotations, paladin is just fine in that aspect and it brings survivability to the group. Otherwise, people would not be able to time world first keys with paladin right? Kicks and stuns coming from one class is nice and it opens other dps to do other things however, normally in a high key scenario it is personal responsibility to know your class in and out, this includes kick/stop rotations as well! Hopefully, this was a bit more clear
Yup. Let's promote the game design towards carry and getting carried. Like the game isn't already rushed and boosted enough.
i need to find your UI, its so clean.
Great review. I still can’t stand the way consecration plays. They need to make it like an aura that follows you or something along those lines. Same for death and decay on BDK. I likely won’t go much higher than 25s this season so I’ll likely stick with the VDH. But I will focus on getting more practice in on the pally as I can see it’s consistently #1 or 2 every season.
consecration play style does not bother me that much. I got used to being in it.... it does not limit movement as much as people think it does. When you have to be out of your consecration, you pop personals if its a big pull or boss movement and problem solved
@@TiltedGamingYT yeah I honestly just haven’t spent enough time tanking with pally I don’t doubt you get use to it. It’s always a pretty strong tank in both raid and M+ so I should probably start getting the reps in
@@johnmcgahey16 i think if you enjoy the utility but strong tank playstyle, you should give it a shot... until you try it yourself, dont limit yourself to "consecration playstyle is bad"
hardest part about cons is remembering to use it. Beginning of season i was like 20% uptime, and now im up to about 40. Im 3400 rn lmao@@TiltedGamingYT
@@quintit Ehh, thats not an issue for me. Consecration is a big part of pala tanking. If you know the class, you'd remember the consecration. Having said that, it does take some time to get used to it. I am 3300+, so I am up there as well.
I said the same thing about them season 1 when prot warriors were crazy. Sure enough by mid season they were considered the better tank. Avengers shield is crazy strong with being an interrupt. Not to mention better team play with the pally buffs and crazy aoe.
Andy, brewmaster says hi :-( love ya vids man. Hope someone at blizz looks at brew and give them a look over. VDH definitely is ruling the roost right now. How does the dk fare though vs vdh?
VDH really does carry i feel like I just fall over when I switch over to my paladin and my dh never dies
VDH is definitely S tier in a group that knows what they’re doing, love tanking on VDH. That said…in most pugs I’d rather be on my pally since I can heal, brez, sac, bof, bop, not to mention all the interrupts.
Rare on his VDH has a bunch of world first keys, 29s and 30s. You obviously don't *need* a prot paladin for dps to be able to live those keys.
going forward those keys will be irrelevant, and most keys above it will have prot pala tanks.
Paladins wills never be same as they were in wrath.
I'd say its also key dependant, for example tott i feel like i can solo carry even the worst group right now with vengeance, you have like 10 sigils up for any dangerous pull
As a prot pally, I can say the same thing too... Fire dot on ToTT boss, I can save people with bop, spellward etc...
It depends, VDH is absolutely bonkers if everyone is on high skill level but if the tanker needs to help the no brain dps squad then ofc , the advantage is there
What is the name of the weakaura that has the double green glow either side of the character for the VDH please?
Prot Pally - Mage, Aug, & Havoc - Disc Priest .... that's the new meta after this last tuning patch. Resto Druid might be a solid option in specific keys as well. Mark of the Wild is incredibly strong.
disc is trash, mw is the meta healer
@@Ducktamerlol
@@Ducktamer you must be kidding
Big content
I feel like this vid was a day too late, with the changes to mage, can imagine having mass barrier in the key and mages innate tankinesss is more important than any player in a comp now, frost mage will likely be the best spec for m+ especially linking with an aug which seems mandatory for healers. As long as theres an aug and a mage as well as demon hunter (for brand, kicks, dps and magic dr+darkness), can imagine thats what well be getting as the meta comp, likely to see disc priest too, could be way off tho so well see.
it'll still be fire because of their cheat death and uncapped aoe as always. Havoc and Aug also are the locks with the mage being in the flex spot.
I only pay up to about +22 and always with randoms. You simply cannot beat Prot paladin in that set-up, I have saved so many keys that would have failed on VDH because my DPS or healer are slacking majorly. BoP, Sac, off healing, poison dispel. Just can't beat it.
The real question is, will blood dk be meta with the legendary?! 🙃
That's the talk. Has nobody gotten it yet and ran numbers?
No
@@danieltodd9038 legendary will not make BDK meta. BDK's problem is eventually at a certain key level they just get one-shot, and Fyralath actually nerfs your survivability because you are rooted and channeling for 3 seconds, so you can't Death Strike.
@@danieltodd9038it does dmg and survives, but it doesnt provide as much group utility/survivability.
BDK should deal twice as much dmg to be considered in very high keys.
@@danieltodd9038it won’t. It doesn’t bring enough utility / control compared to the other 2 meta tanks. For it to be meta it would need to be so insanely overtuned with dps it would get hotfixed nerfed - we are talking 30-50k dps higher to be
For pure solo pugging, VDH is just 10x better.
DPS for tanks is nice, but it's not what we are there for. Also, isn't divine toll an additional AOE interrupt for prot pallys? Along with blinding light.
Dps as a tank is absolutely something you need to be doing on any dungeon and almost always matters to what the meta tank is
devine toll and avenger shield are both silence/interrupt. This is why palas are better at aoe pulling casters.
In higher keys even your healer damage can matter.
@@TheRealBezani id rather have a healer focus on healing to often i see them focussed on the wrong stuff.
When tanks can do between 120 and 140 single target their DPS absolutely matters
Imagine playing prot pala in 2023
tankier? nah. As prot pala im currently @ 110% avoidence which means i block 70 of the hits meaning they deal 37% less damage per hit plus more armor which makes hits lower already so the damage is more consistent. And then on op there is 30+ pary and dodge which is 100% damage reduction. Damage is trash tho. Since they moved everything to holy damage the damage barely scales. plus i party heal a LOT saving the situation several times a instance.
According to simulationcraft, Vengeance is the tankiest tank in a sustained single target fight, Prot pally's a close second. That's a physical damage patchwerk fight, not clear how well that translates to M+ tankiness. I feel like there's only a few scary places as a tank this season (Tyr, Oakheart, Dulhu, Soulbound Goliath), I don't think tank tankiness is a bottleneck for the best groups right now with either tank.
@@asdf198 Problem i see on most pala tanks is not making sure block+dodge+ parry is 100%+ that maters a LOT. Crit is really important for prot as crit gives a huge boost in parrt. iu have 41% crit but also 33% parry. thats 36% of the sameg being blocked 100% and the rest is blocked for 37-39% after the armor reduction. that makes damage reduction a lot more then most other tanks. if you fail to set it up right gear wise you are taking a lot of damage spikes that arent pretty. plus the right tallents where you get absorb shields matter too. I see many go for dps which is irrelevant or focus on consecration damage and healing which is so minimal its irrelevant. 1k heals with a million health lol.
i have bin a pala main tank for almost 2 decades now and i come from a time where strategyes on gearing matterd a lot more then it does now as the difficulty shifted. you get away with a lot now but in the hard content it matters.
That’s not how a avoidance on tanks works anymore. It’s not additiv, the get checked after each other. Basically layers,not parts of a whole avoidance number.
Brain is better. Doesnt matter what you play. Play with your brain!!!
Even the brainiest dk/war/monk can’t do what the pal/DH are doing, they need rework that’s all
@@Dilllll26 95% of people will never pass a 23+ key. Below that doesnt really matter what you pla
@@doublem7709 yes but if a DH can solo cc a whole pack until it’s dead or pala can give u a defensive/heal and carry a bad healer or dps that doesn’t press buttons it can be the difference between failing and timing keys sadly.
I was loyal to my spec every patch since legion but finally gave it up and already reaping the benefits carrying pug brains
That makes me happy to be playing guardian druid 26 keys with pugs @@doublem7709
@@doublem7709 but the discussion here isn't what's "good at +23~" is it now? a brain won't help specs that lag behind a full level or two on average