We had a client once, hubby had drilled through a cable, we came and fixed it and charged minimum of 1hr, we only took 20 mins to repair it. The client said ' you've only been 20mins' I said ' it's taken me 18yrs to only take 20mins' she said 'I never thought about that' 😂👍
I've learnt that when doing estimates its best to price your labour first and stick to that figure. Then add materials. I had a habit in the early days of pruning my labour price back if i thought the estimate was high. Dont do it. The price is the price...... Great video Tom.
yes, underestimating the value of your own time is a common problem especially with younger people... (for whom time is not as lacking lol)... learn the value of your knowledge
Yeah I used to give labour and materials!! Not now. Some clients just look at the total , so you come over as expensive when you could be cheaper at the end of the job.
Indeed - If they truly want to reduce the price, then they can reduce the number of sockets that they have fitted for example or get standard white sockets rather than the fancy brushed steel or chrome ones etc... So you can show them that you are not being an arse and are too rigid but that you actually do care about them and are trying to help them out while still doing a job to the same standard and safety and not selling yourself short . (Apologies for my language, I have been enjoying a few rather unSavery videos if you know what I mean, Dave?) If they are still not happy, sorry that is all I can do and then walk away.
Wife and I both come from trades families, but life took us to professions. From watching this, I suppose that we and friends are High End - there is sufficient money, and it is not our first consideration. What we all worry about most is competence, honest opinion given, turning up when you say you will. We all have little lists of known good people / firms. We talk to each other, and those recommendations count for more than anything. We don't care about the time. We offer to pay the moment the job is done. We hope that gives us credibility / consideration if we find that we have an emergency call out.
I disagree that this should be placed in terms of "you're paying for experience". You're not; you're paying for the delivery of a service. Don't make it about how many hours it takes or how much those hours cost. The quote is for the service to be delivered, e.g. "replace consumer unit with 10-way RCBO unit, conduct testing on existing installation £xxxx + VAT". The cost of that service costs depends on the cost of material, the cost of labour (yours included) for the time it takes (on and off site), the costs of doing business and how much profit you want to make. The problem with making it about 'paying for experience' is with how customers weigh up an electrician's experience and training, and therefore value. If you charge (for example) £100/hour for your experience rather than £100 for a service which takes an hour, the customer will do some mental maths and come up with a figure of how much they think your salary therefore is. Of course they will fail to take into account that you're self-employed, have costs, don't do payed gigs 100% of your working hours etc etc. However they will weigh this up against their own salary and the known salary of professionals such as doctors, polticians, bankers etc. A customer may never value your time at £100/hour but may value the work at £100...
Customer: "Aren't you supposed to be working three hours longer for that board change?" Electrician: "Sure!" *turns power back off* Customer: "Wait, I didn't mean it like _that_…"
Even though you’re a great electrician, when you go into business for yourself you are basically starting out as a brand new apprentice. Hear out other business owners like Tom, they are your business journeyman.
The thing we are always coming up against is clients that will go with the cheapest. An then end up with issues. Which then cost them twice. Tom they are also paying for the job doing correctly
"The less they pay, the more they expect." I used to work in software development in the payment processing space, and it took us way too long to work that out. Sounds counter-intuitive, but the clients who haggled the price down as far as they could were always the ones to demand just that little bit extra, constantly, and were never really happy even when you went above and beyond as much as you could. The clients who didn't care about the price just let us get on with it, and instead of getting us to cover "extra bits" were more than happy to get them done at extra charge, or get external consultants to do them if we didn't want to cover it. Seems this is true in all walks of life!
Yes, couldn't agree more. If someone's giving you a hard time before you even start the job then don't be surprised if they're like that about everything.
I work in industrial automation, writing software for other companies machines. Some of these systems are almost an identical copy. So some customers say "it's just copying the previous software, why is it so expensive". That's not how it works.
As a client (not of Tom's, I live in a different area of the country) planning some big jobs and trying to avoid being That Guy at any point, this was good to know. Thanks.
Great advice!.. I always check the house, car and interior design when arriving on a job. I always charge any materials, and my labour per hour.. Take it or leave it. I think its the fairest way. Never had any client not pay me in 4 and half years, and had loads of repeat work. Quotes if they want that will always be higher than any estimate.
That was extremely informative. Thank you Tom. I once worked in the home improvements industry and it's much the same across the board: Always go in high; because once they've haggled a lower price you can never raise it again. Top-end clients are a breath of fresh air; but they're so hard to find. - Maybe they all live in London?
I get some of my work because I'm the only contractor to turn up to estimate the job. Clients also tell me that a contractor turns up to do an estimate but they never hear from them again. I also find the more money people have the longer they take to pay.
I totally agree with that. I employed an admin staff member to answer the phone and manage the diary is I was so busy and missed things. Customers often tell me that my company has great communication. Best decision I’ve ever made.
Then again someone who looks high end can be on the verge of bankruptcy with a huge mansion and never pays bills for months. Spends money on all the gadgets and never pays a bill. Yet there could be a granny who wants a job done safely and pays everyone in cash on time so what looks high end is not always high end it’s quality of customer
That's why I always do free callous first, that way I can gauge the customer. If it's small and fixable while I'm there I'll do it, if its larger I'll book it in. If it's a genuine rush I up my price, if I'm overly busy I'll add a 20% markup over and above what itll cost If they're a twat I'll either say I cant do, or add a 0 to the end of my quote, if they haggle at all I just say it's not the job for me and move on
100% agree with what you’ve said. Another psychological top tip, never employ a haggler as a salesman! People who try and squeeze the purchase price to within an inch if it’s life will ALWAYS sell at a discount! I had heard a sales trainer I like called Benjamin Dennehy say this and didn’t believe it at first but it’s so true. The price is never the issue in sales. It’s always that you didn’t get across your value to the customer. When a customer asks why they should pay more for you, tell them: Wrong question! The question is; Do you want to be sat in the dark with no power wondering why you didn’t pay that little bit more for a better job?
That would be where I point them in the direction of my old Romanian mates Ionut and Florin 😅 "yes yes we do whole fuseboard for two hundred pounds that includes the nails to hold it on the wall for you" 😅
I'm not a spark I'm a Carpenter and iv had my fair share of very well off people try haggle the price down. Over the years you grow a thick skin from it and any client that starts to haggle I stop them in their track and say You either want my service or not.
It’s funny Tom because you would be your own worst customer doing your own van maintenance and repairs. I’ve had extremely wealthy client that were the tightest people I’ve ever met, I’ve also had clients that have very little but put a bit to one side for a rainy day and just pay the price no questions. Sometimes it’s about being a good judge of character and choosing your customers carefully.
Totally agree Paul . Some of my best clients have been good honest working class people putting money aside for home improvements etc. Not the people who don't want to pay for experience & quality of workmanship because they're more interested in topping out on the latest 30k sound system or 15k sofa . They have no prob paying top end retail shops but a good tradesman with years of experience & quality work they'll screw em to the floor. Judge of character goes a long way .
Tom would make an exceptional college tutor, if every apprentice or adult learner could spend some time with Tom I think the industry would be in safe hands
Wise words. It's taken me 4 years to get the clients I want. Never work for anyone that tries and reduces the prices. And now have a steady stream of good paying nice clients. Yes I do free bits for some of them. But only once we have developed a relationship.
I was recommended to someone from a previous client. Arrived at his house - brand new Audi Q7 on the drive but inside was a dump. He wanted sockets moved from the skirting up into the wall, external CCTV and external lights. Judging by the existing installation I didn’t want to touch the place. I could tell he’s tried doing it himself, he also wanted a price right there and then. I basically said thank you but walked away. He was 100% the type to hold back money and ask for extras and not pay for it. Best decision of my career. It would of been a horrible job. They actually contacted me recently on a different number to try catch me out to agree to come and quote for an extractor fan. Very sneaky.
On the subject of cars - if you are looking to buy one on Ebay for sure scrutinise the photographs very carefully - but no just of the car but the house the vehicle is parked outside of.
@@stephenwabaxter So very true. Funnily enough my friend was selling his 3 series, he asked me if he could take pictures outside of my house - this was exactly the reason
And what's the excuse you usually use to turn down an order? I cannot imagine anything that's not difficult to say when you're in there in someone else's home looking at the job at hand...
Excellent Vid Tom totally agree with all you said with the exception of the high end clients - we find the more money they have the tighter they are!!! - 30 years in the trade the only aggro i`ve ever had is with some high end company directors and a Rock star!!! -
I couldn’t agree more! Ive had 2 really well off customers (one had a super car parked on the drive) both were incredibly demanding wanting everything now with lots of additional jobs done “while your here” ! Both scrutinised estimates and invoices.
I couldn’t agree more! Ive had 2 really well off customers (one had a super car parked on the drive) both were incredibly demanding wanting everything now with lots of additional jobs done “while your here” ! Both scrutinised estimates and invoices.
Years ago, my dad new a decorator who was going to price a job in Hadley wood, a well off area, he was advised to bump his price up, as they expect to pay more, so he worked out a price, and then doubled it, when he told the client, he said “ you couldn't possibly do a good job for that, and shut the door. More money than sense is very true.
not just your game, I see this in mine ( and am pretty sure others too ) everyone wants to second guess the IT guy and haggle. Best bit of advice I was given when going alone was ( and you've said it too ) don't be afraid to say 'No' and walk away. I've had to get a bit more 'arsey' as we've been coming out of the pandemic and th ewuality of clients has shot up. I may share this video on my business socials so that clients can see we are on to them. Cheers guys
@@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ Spot on, I worked on a firm we did some work for a Russain he was loaded, big house and country estate but he was tighter than a badgers a***, questioned every bill. You just never know.
Loved your tyre analogy. I worked for main dealer in the past (before career change) and have seen exactly what you said. High end car - cheap tyres - terrible road handling. Only the best tyres go on my bikes or car. Keep up the work Tom/team.
At some point we (my business) took a strategic decision to increase the day rates to naturally reduce the load on the schedule and price out a set of clients. 2 surprising things happened: the schedule remained rammed and some of the worst clients (those who haggled the most and were highest maintenance) remained (at a significant premium too). The last bit was a baffling, but at least we started getting some compensation for the hassle.
Mr Nagy, You’ve come on leaps and bounds from when I started watching. When you started your day in the life of an electrician videos. I thoroughly agree with your analogy, when I started my business as a side piece to get through COVID. (My primary job was on hold) I started too enthusiastically with the jobs that I picked up, I went into in-depth explanations. Not good when it’s a layman standing in front of you. This probably scared most customers off. Also I was too nice and people took the piss. I’ve learnt that you’ve got to be Stern but fair. Also I might add, that in my part of the world. If Tradies see a nice car on the drive they double the Bill. Had it said to me all the time.
That cuts zero ice in the commercial world, when you get involved with the big concerns they dictate the price and if you don't like it there is another hungry contractor that will step in. The bigger you get the more your margins are squeezed.
Another perspective, I ended up wiring and plumbing my home myself as I knew I could not afford someone to do the job as well as I wanted it done, I had no other choice.
This video couldn’t of come at a better time for me, I’m a double glazing business owner but what you’re saying about customers is the same for us, I learnt a lot from this video and will put some things into practice after watching this. The haggling part I’ve not walked away in the past and the customers are an absolute pain and you end us losing money and get down hearted. Great advice again Tom.
This is very interesting. I see something very similar in my work. Some clients "get it" and understand that our experience and expertise is what makes up the scope and timeline of a job. Others... Don't. They haggle, they cut on the time whilst attempting to increase the scope. They are happy to thin down the work for the satisfaction of manipulating the deal in their favour. (Spoiler: it isn't in their favour). But there is one thing I disagree with. A service business is very much about time and hour/day rates. Knowledge and skill will cut down the time required but will drive up the rate whilst increasing quality. Marketing and reputation fill in the schedule (in different ways). The ability to handle unknowns successfully most of the times is what makes it work.
Genuinely my mates a carpenter. He was doing a job for a well known very wealthy person who lives local to him. Job was 5 grand. When the job was complete the guy had the 5 grand in cash and counted it out note by note into my mates hand. All in crisp €100 notes until the last €100 which was €20 notes . Altogether gave him €4980 and told him the the last €20 should offset the cost of the electric he used when using power tools and charging batteries.
what a brilliant video Tom, I must say that I already do most of what you said there, I learnt it the hard way and now I have great customers, I occasionally get the odd customer that is a nightmare but I can usually tell that they're a nightmare from the start and don't take the job on!
Excellent video. I do home repair in Southern California. Small job kinda guy, most clients out here have serious money. I tell the clients your home is my home and I never hangle price. I know what I am worth and my 40 years of experience shows in the completed job. You are exactlly right, repeat customers I will do anything for them, and yes they will get a price break. But I learned to judge a book by its cover, in just a few minutes talking with a new client, I know if they will be a PIA or not, if they are a PIA, I bid super high to not get the work...
I recently had a minor dispute with a customer over the price I charged for a job. I had to travel from north london to south to change 4 x downlight fittings which had old school wider than average downlights. I then had to go out find suitable lights and bezels to cover the holes. Overall a good 4 1/2 hrs from pillar to post. Quoted him £250. he said to me he expected to pay £180 for a full days work with other trades. I asked him has he ever had a tooth pulled before!? he said yes, I said " and you paid with no qualms" even though it probably took him 2 mins. I said Ive done as many years training in this field ,probably more longer than a dentist and on top of that I risk my eyes and even my life every time I take off a DB cover and that on top of the job is what you are paying me for. I said sure you may find cheaper but what you will find is people can introduce problems just through bad workmanship and experience. Dont under value yourselves boys and girls just because we get a bit dirty now and then!!!
I watched a lot of your videos and share a lot of the same experiences. I just other electricians listen and stop trying to cut each other throat so we all can earn a decent profit. Excellent job and great content.
100% agree, totally different industry however (3D graphics). My pet hate is the ones who think 'just this little bit extra' for free. I've had them screaming at me that I'm unprofessional because I won't do work that's not in the agreement... like mate, you came to me because you're tired of being ripped off by third world sweat shop suppliers (who give exactly zero craps about you or your project), you want a professional, this is what we look like!
Oh man your bang on the buck there. Nothing worse than customers trying to beat the price down. Unfortunately I'm in the mid price bracket for the valeting and detailing in Edinburgh which I may have to out my prices up again at some point to get rid of they agonying customers
Coming from Canada our market seems to work quite different. We almost never give estimates, just a concrete quote but the UK have more safety items that could cause issues so I see why you estimate. We also work off of extra's alot. Like say I quote $12,000 for a standard trim 2000 ft/2 house and now they want pot lights instead of ceiling lights or add more outside outlets, etc. Then we do up a separate contract for that extra and the price is usually more expensive than the rate we use to calculate the job overhead. The thought process is we have a permit open so they cant hire another spark to do the extra while we are there and its less tear up for us to do it while the job is on going so we have a opportunity to charge a little more. I also used to double guess my labor alot when the job price with mats seemed high but you gotta hold fast with the labor price. They want the job done right then it takes the time it takes.
Another great video. Back in the early nineties and old boss of mine complained that customers want a rolls royce job for a ford fiesta price. It seems somethings never change... and that car a analogy is something we all understand.
Apart from a couple of minor points I whole heartedly agree with you. When ever I get a trades person in I always make a point that its a good job I want. Yes price is important but I'm not here to haggle and bother with that crap. If there is something I can do before hand like put on back boxes to save a bit of time then excellent. But if they aren't level or I've done them wrong that's on me not the trades person. The issue I have is being quote £700 pounds by a sparky to put in a new garage board and connect 1 light switch and 1 socket. Where the list material at around 60 quid and the rest is not even one days labour. I wish I could find a sparky like Tom near me!!! Unfortunately we have a few too many trades people charging high end prices for a mid range job. If you find a good trades person then treat them well and pay them right!
Great video 👍. Like many tradesmen who have been in this game for a long time, spend time on those regular customers who appreciate your time and work quality. Keep a way from the low end clients who want everything for ‘Nothing’ !!! 😁
I've got an interesting one currently. Had expected them to fit well into that higher end category of "wants the job done right and so long as it's not a rip-off it's all good". But started questioning the price and what I count as a "full day". Doesn't seem happy with the fact that, because they changed their mind about what they wanted the morning the job started, I've had to sod off early on the first day to go source and order/collect a bunch of different materials. Now I usually don't worry about time to initially take a look, plan, and get the parts for a job (within reason). But having to do it again last minute? Yes I'm going to charge for the hours spent looking up parts that will work the way they want and driving around out of town to get them in time, not everything is available off the shelf in the local Screwfix!
Bloody _great_ analysis / breakdown, Tom. Can't recommend this enough 👍 And most of these haggly / squeezy c***s are usually buy-to-let landlords. Never haggle, just _walk away_ -- unless it's a _major_ client who is giving you _lots_ of regular work, as you say, but _those_ ones probably wouldn't dream of haggling.
Here's my recent experience.. need small shed wiring, 4x internal and 1x external socket, 2x internal lights, 1x external light. I've done all the conduit and mounted back boxes and lights to good standard. So all I need is supply and fit CU, SWA (~5-10m), run in singles and test. ~4hrs work I reckon. First quote wanted £630 incl VAT! Second quote despite two promises is non existant. Nothing odd, didn't ask to haggle or any unrealistic requirements. I guess when trades wanted Brexit this is why, to jack up prices and just pick and choose juicy jobs. Well great for the trades but sucks if you happen to be in a poor area and not Chelsea or leafy shires £££ and want a basic job done. Can't be bothered with a 3rd quote if this is the state of the market (heard similar stories from other people) so for now I have given up with this and may just do a lighting feed on a plug top. And people wonder why DIY dave 'has a go'...
Tom what a refreshing contractor you are, I have a 60M house in Holland Park that I have a PPM contract with, which is very close to your office..................... I promise I will be in touch. I swear i'm adopted with handwriting like this 🤣😂🤣Top man! I will drop by one afternoon.
I paid full price for the professionals to do the job as promised before job done , what they didn't tell me they had a nightmare job in the morning a little job turned out to be a big job ... then come to my home late and did a rush job to catch up and the quality and finish was shocking as they had another job planned after my job ... but the building site closes at 4.30 or no access but because of this pressure or work I got the raw deal ... spent most of the day ripping it out and tidy up the wiring and making things look straight and fixed up properly ... snapped wall fixing / screws ... no one use hand tools anymore ? Annoyed and when they called today as a courtesy call follow up I told them how it was and I wont be recommending them to anyone and even sending another team of 'fitters' to rectify the work that should have been done originally to a certain high standard for top money paid up in full before .... told them no Bodgit and Scarper ....
im a new self employed spark/gas fitter, i have had several quotes turned down some people getting irate at the price who think im ripping them off, i don't argue i just say no problem good luck
A problem we often come across is when the client says can we have a breakdown of costs or we ‘ l get the materials, .. can u give us a labour only cost ..’ the only thing about that is you often end up still using things out the van they’ve forgotten about or they buy the cheapest materials they can find that take longer to install , I’ve had it so many times especially with crappy light fittings which when you open the box you find they need assembling or are just awful to install . What’s the best thing to do when you get the ‘ we l buy the materials scenario ??
Add an obvious explicit significant markup on labour only estimates to account for time waiting on forgotten materials or replacement of substandard or faulty materials. Make sure they know it's going to be painful to them to go down that route.
Hi Paul B, I've had cheapskates try that old chestnut on me in the past. "Come and put a light up" they say, then you arrive to find a thousand piece puzzle, and they start questioning your ability because their mates boyfriend told them it's an half hour job. The other one about the customer supplying materials, well the goods will be wrong, won't arrive in time, bits will be missing, you'll end end installing second hand or knock offs. In my experience the customer thinks they are being savvy but they are simply turning a into a poor version of what it could be. From another Paul B.
Thing is I had a central heating engineer out he was the 1st quote I had and I took that price straight off and haggling I wouldn't dare to as I don't like customers to haggle with me and plus its pointless, to be honest I don't haggle with anything I just take what price they say.
After reading the comment about the car analogy I was expecting the one about "wants a rolls Royce job for Ford focus prices" But I haven't heard that one about tyres before and I've got to say never a truer word said. Unfortunately some people only care about looks, and safety falls way down their list of priorities.
Heard the interview you gave with the chap on Fix Radio. Very well presented show, always look forward to listening in, even though I'm not a spark. Fantastic stuff, top advice and very well explained. Thank you.
'Estimates versus quotes' isn't a thing: you can estimate a job and give a quote for it, but that quote may not be binding - Terms and Conditions are important, legally, and must sent with every quotation and invoice for them to have validity in law. Always remember Accuracy, Brevity, Clarity: (ABC) and that a pad of three-part carbonless forms can be used to run any and all small contracting businesses. The back of each copy should be printed with you Standard Terms and Conditions of Sale - having them on a website Is not sufficient in the event of a dispute. To avoid ambiguity of terms and meanings, for your staff and your customers alike, work should be priced as either 'A fixed-price job', or 'On an hourly rate.' The costing of both needs to include an element for both fixed and variable costs, materials--which should be marked up---and profit, which can be variable, but which is not allowed to drop below a minimum rate. This variability, or the lack of it depending on the circumstances, can drive customer and staff incentives, in a number or ways.
My ethnicity is Chinese, and I must say, what you said on 8:55 is something that Sun Tzu, the author The Art Of War would have said if it was in the 21st century 🤣😂. Man that made me laugh 😆.
Great insight. Have to admit I've always quoted following a visit to site, and only every had one issue with payment, in fact I've had one or two clients specifically say to me to not send an estimate, but I can see your argument for estimates over quotes
I don't understand quotes in a service market. I very rarely give quotes and when I do it's 3x or more the low estimate I think the job will be. My estimates are always a range, whatever I think it will cost low end and doubled for high end. Bill them hourly+costs no matter what and if they ring me up to complain I just tell them they're paying for the time it took to do the job, the estimate is just to give an impression. I'm not a spark though, maybe people don't understand how much work it is to get a job done right because "it's just some wiring", idk.
I'm interested (looking at the client side and wanting to never be one of the bad clients) how do you control costs with estimates? If you make an estimate for a board change but find, after starting, that the wiring is so bad it cannot be fixed, but the customer cannot budget for a re-wire how do you finish the job? You're vet analogy was very accurate, its the knowledge and experience people are paying for. My 'fear' if I as a client received a job estimate is that what if it costs 3x more and I don't have 3x more money in the bank? I appreciate very much you consult at every stage with the client before making alterations but some things are out of your control (like finding old rubber cables in random places etc..) too. I also appreciate however, fixed quote is bad for sparks in like instances so it very much is a fine balance.
The cheapest car currently in the UK is the Ford Dacia, is it the best seller? No. Give a price then walk away. Never haggle, worst thing you can do. Client thinks they have you on the ropes and that you were out to cream them from the get go. Best advice I heard recently was “Present/give your quote with the air of no bullshit attached with it” clients will consciously & unconsciously pick this up from you. Know your worth!
I deal with a lot of different businesses the one I find it harder to get money out of is the bigger one the small business or the the client with not that much money pay on the spot or within the week I recently had a hell of a time to get money from a large business I honestly don't know how smaller businesses survive wait months and months to get paid when I'm buying I have to pay on the day or within a week when it's the other way round it needs to be the same for them it definitely a learning experience knowing who not to do business with I work with a lot of small businesses which are fantastic but the big ones nothing but hassle and grief
Great information. I’ve been mulling over how to move forward and get away from pricing a day rate and running around like a headless chicken. I need to price the job not the time. It’s just an easy trap to fall into when you don’t have time to sit and think about it. Just make a bit of money on the materials but then end up doing 10 hours for £200. Not doing it anymore.
I don't pay contractors to work for a set amount of time i just want the job done. As long as the price for labour is fair the guy could get it done in 30 mins for all i care.
Thanks for the vid tom I wanna do more of my own work but customer haggle is real and draining.however even through a company is so much better just pick up your wages every friday with a pay slip the real money is dealing and pricing jobs on your own and learning how to negotiate and stay firm
Great content Tom. We've all been burned by 'that client'. It's good to get it out there from a trades point of view. There's a lot of scrutiny on poor contractors but not much on the bad customers who want everything for nothing. They never understand experience as opposed to hours. On a separate matter; Betty's getting married?! That came out of nowhere! Also, we need an update on your stalker?
Retail is the worst for squeezing I did work for a very well known low-cost hotel chain I called double dodge and they were the pits they wanted first-class work for bargain basement prices plus freebies, and they took their time paying and always haggled the invoice. Their plant rooms were the pits they only ever did work they had to i.e. compliance and only fixed equipment that could reduce revenue everything else could rot. Let us not get onto pub chains the most mercenary bunch of f*** you will ever come across, they have zero loyalty everything is price based. It's a very competitive world out there and these firms know how to play it. God knows what it's like now after COVID, dread to think. Hey, Nagy, you think domestic customers are difficult you are in for a shock with commercial. Have you worked out how many street lights per day you have to change just to break even?
We had a client once, hubby had drilled through a cable, we came and fixed it and charged minimum of 1hr, we only took 20 mins to repair it. The client said ' you've only been 20mins' I said ' it's taken me 18yrs to only take 20mins' she said 'I never thought about that' 😂👍
I've learnt that when doing estimates its best to price your labour first and stick to that figure. Then add materials. I had a habit in the early days of pruning my labour price back if i thought the estimate was high. Dont do it. The price is the price...... Great video Tom.
I do that now maybe time to stop.
yes, underestimating the value of your own time is a common problem especially with younger people... (for whom time is not as lacking lol)... learn the value of your knowledge
Yeah I used to give labour and materials!! Not now. Some clients just look at the total , so you come over as expensive when you could be cheaper at the end of the job.
Guilty
Indeed - If they truly want to reduce the price, then they can reduce the number of sockets that they have fitted for example or get standard white sockets rather than the fancy brushed steel or chrome ones etc... So you can show them that you are not being an arse and are too rigid but that you actually do care about them and are trying to help them out while still doing a job to the same standard and safety and not selling yourself short . (Apologies for my language, I have been enjoying a few rather unSavery videos if you know what I mean, Dave?) If they are still not happy, sorry that is all I can do and then walk away.
Loved the car analogy, seen the situation many times but never thought of it like that 😀
I think the same when I see white cars. Buy an Audi but won't pay the 1500 quid for a nice colour.
It is indeed spot-on.
I’ve used this analogy many times before too
These videos are an absolute gold mine for electricians starting their own business. Thank you Tom!
Wife and I both come from trades families, but life took us to professions. From watching this, I suppose that we and friends are High End - there is sufficient money, and it is not our first consideration. What we all worry about most is competence, honest opinion given, turning up when you say you will. We all have little lists of known good people / firms. We talk to each other, and those recommendations count for more than anything. We don't care about the time. We offer to pay the moment the job is done. We hope that gives us credibility / consideration if we find that we have an emergency call out.
It Really really does, thanks
I disagree that this should be placed in terms of "you're paying for experience". You're not; you're paying for the delivery of a service. Don't make it about how many hours it takes or how much those hours cost. The quote is for the service to be delivered, e.g. "replace consumer unit with 10-way RCBO unit, conduct testing on existing installation £xxxx + VAT". The cost of that service costs depends on the cost of material, the cost of labour (yours included) for the time it takes (on and off site), the costs of doing business and how much profit you want to make.
The problem with making it about 'paying for experience' is with how customers weigh up an electrician's experience and training, and therefore value. If you charge (for example) £100/hour for your experience rather than £100 for a service which takes an hour, the customer will do some mental maths and come up with a figure of how much they think your salary therefore is. Of course they will fail to take into account that you're self-employed, have costs, don't do payed gigs 100% of your working hours etc etc. However they will weigh this up against their own salary and the known salary of professionals such as doctors, polticians, bankers etc. A customer may never value your time at £100/hour but may value the work at £100...
Customer: "Aren't you supposed to be working three hours longer for that board change?"
Electrician: "Sure!" *turns power back off*
Customer: "Wait, I didn't mean it like _that_…"
😁 gotta smile when I read this comment
Even though you’re a great electrician, when you go into business for yourself you are basically starting out as a brand new apprentice. Hear out other business owners like Tom, they are your business journeyman.
The thing we are always coming up against is clients that will go with the cheapest. An then end up with issues. Which then cost them twice. Tom they are also paying for the job doing correctly
"The less they pay, the more they expect." I used to work in software development in the payment processing space, and it took us way too long to work that out. Sounds counter-intuitive, but the clients who haggled the price down as far as they could were always the ones to demand just that little bit extra, constantly, and were never really happy even when you went above and beyond as much as you could. The clients who didn't care about the price just let us get on with it, and instead of getting us to cover "extra bits" were more than happy to get them done at extra charge, or get external consultants to do them if we didn't want to cover it. Seems this is true in all walks of life!
Yes, couldn't agree more. If someone's giving you a hard time before you even start the job then don't be surprised if they're like that about everything.
I work in industrial automation, writing software for other companies machines. Some of these systems are almost an identical copy. So some customers say "it's just copying the previous software, why is it so expensive". That's not how it works.
I was briefly in software development and my only good client was a Chartered Accountant. Everyone else wanted everything for peanuts.
Absolutely positively true.
What about bungs and brown envelopes to get work and keep clients, and don't pretend you don't do it.
As a client (not of Tom's, I live in a different area of the country) planning some big jobs and trying to avoid being That Guy at any point, this was good to know. Thanks.
Great advice!.. I always check the house, car and interior design when arriving on a job. I always charge any materials, and my labour per hour.. Take it or leave it. I think its the fairest way. Never had any client not pay me in 4 and half years, and had loads of repeat work. Quotes if they want that will always be higher than any estimate.
That was extremely informative. Thank you Tom. I once worked in the home improvements industry and it's much the same across the board: Always go in high; because once they've haggled a lower price you can never raise it again. Top-end clients are a breath of fresh air; but they're so hard to find. - Maybe they all live in London?
I get some of my work because I'm the only contractor to turn up to estimate the job. Clients also tell me that a contractor turns up to do an estimate but they never hear from them again. I also find the more money people have the longer they take to pay.
I totally agree with that. I employed an admin staff member to answer the phone and manage the diary is I was so busy and missed things. Customers often tell me that my company has great communication. Best decision I’ve ever made.
THIS exactly Tom... your analogy with the vet was perfect
Then again someone who looks high end can be on the verge of bankruptcy with a huge mansion and never pays bills for months. Spends money on all the gadgets and never pays a bill. Yet there could be a granny who wants a job done safely and pays everyone in cash on time so what looks high end is not always high end it’s quality of customer
That's why I always do free callous first, that way I can gauge the customer. If it's small and fixable while I'm there I'll do it, if its larger I'll book it in. If it's a genuine rush I up my price, if I'm overly busy I'll add a 20% markup over and above what itll cost
If they're a twat I'll either say I cant do, or add a 0 to the end of my quote, if they haggle at all I just say it's not the job for me and move on
I wonder if Tom payed sticker price for his vans or whether he haggled?
100% agree with what you’ve said.
Another psychological top tip, never employ a haggler as a salesman! People who try and squeeze the purchase price to within an inch if it’s life will ALWAYS sell at a discount!
I had heard a sales trainer I like called Benjamin Dennehy say this and didn’t believe it at first but it’s so true.
The price is never the issue in sales. It’s always that you didn’t get across your value to the customer.
When a customer asks why they should pay more for you, tell them: Wrong question! The question is; Do you want to be sat in the dark with no power wondering why you didn’t pay that little bit more for a better job?
That would be where I point them in the direction of my old Romanian mates Ionut and Florin 😅 "yes yes we do whole fuseboard for two hundred pounds that includes the nails to hold it on the wall for you" 😅
Bloody brilliant way of explaining it. Thanks.
I'm not a spark I'm a Carpenter and iv had my fair share of very well off people try haggle the price down. Over the years you grow a thick skin from it and any client that starts to haggle I stop them in their track and say You either want my service or not.
It’s funny Tom because you would be your own worst customer doing your own van maintenance and repairs. I’ve had extremely wealthy client that were the tightest people I’ve ever met, I’ve also had clients that have very little but put a bit to one side for a rainy day and just pay the price no questions. Sometimes it’s about being a good judge of character and choosing your customers carefully.
Totally agree Paul . Some of my best clients have been good honest working class people putting money aside for home improvements etc. Not the people who don't want to pay for experience & quality of workmanship because they're more interested in topping out on the latest 30k sound system or 15k sofa . They have no prob paying top end retail shops but a good tradesman with years of experience & quality work they'll screw em to the floor. Judge of character goes a long way .
I found that extremely informative and appreciate the thought processes and experience you bring to the industry and RUclips!
Tom would make an exceptional college tutor, if every apprentice or adult learner could spend some time with Tom I think the industry would be in safe hands
Wise words. It's taken me 4 years to get the clients I want. Never work for anyone that tries and reduces the prices. And now have a steady stream of good paying nice clients. Yes I do free bits for some of them. But only once we have developed a relationship.
I was recommended to someone from a previous client. Arrived at his house - brand new Audi Q7 on the drive but inside was a dump. He wanted sockets moved from the skirting up into the wall, external CCTV and external lights. Judging by the existing installation I didn’t want to touch the place. I could tell he’s tried doing it himself, he also wanted a price right there and then. I basically said thank you but walked away. He was 100% the type to hold back money and ask for extras and not pay for it. Best decision of my career. It would of been a horrible job. They actually contacted me recently on a different number to try catch me out to agree to come and quote for an extractor fan. Very sneaky.
On the subject of cars - if you are looking to buy one on Ebay for sure scrutinise the photographs very carefully - but no just of the car but the house the vehicle is parked outside of.
@@stephenwabaxter So very true. Funnily enough my friend was selling his 3 series, he asked me if he could take pictures outside of my house - this was exactly the reason
And what's the excuse you usually use to turn down an order? I cannot imagine anything that's not difficult to say when you're in there in someone else's home looking at the job at hand...
Excellent Vid Tom totally agree with all you said with the exception of the high end clients - we find the more money they have the tighter they are!!! - 30 years in the trade the only aggro i`ve ever had is with some high end company directors and a Rock star!!! -
I couldn’t agree more! Ive had 2 really well off customers (one had a super car parked on the drive) both were incredibly demanding wanting everything now with lots of additional jobs done “while your here” ! Both scrutinised estimates and invoices.
I couldn’t agree more! Ive had 2 really well off customers (one had a super car parked on the drive) both were incredibly demanding wanting everything now with lots of additional jobs done “while your here” ! Both scrutinised estimates and invoices.
Years ago, my dad new a decorator who was going to price a job in Hadley wood, a well off area, he was advised to bump his price up, as they expect to pay more, so he worked out a price, and then doubled it, when he told the client, he said “ you couldn't possibly do a good job for that, and shut the door. More money than sense is very true.
not just your game, I see this in mine ( and am pretty sure others too )
everyone wants to second guess the IT guy and haggle. Best bit of advice I was given when going alone was ( and you've said it too ) don't be afraid to say 'No' and walk away. I've had to get a bit more 'arsey' as we've been coming out of the pandemic and th ewuality of clients has shot up. I may share this video on my business socials so that clients can see we are on to them. Cheers guys
Another great video Mr Nagy. I wish I had a penny for every time I've heard the 'while your here can you just'
I've found that many high end clients who can well afford anything will still try to haggle. It's a sport for them.
cheap skates ...
that's just how many of them make money. cut 1k on every service 10 times and they made 10k that month that they reinvest in a new project.
Most wealthy folk I know didn't get that way by being charitable. It's not uncommon I find the poor/average man more generous than those with money.
@@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ Spot on, I worked on a firm we did some work for a Russain he was loaded, big house and country estate but he was tighter than a badgers a***, questioned every bill. You just never know.
Loved your tyre analogy.
I worked for main dealer in the past (before career change) and have seen exactly what you said. High end car - cheap tyres - terrible road handling.
Only the best tyres go on my bikes or car.
Keep up the work Tom/team.
Wow, great insight to the customer psyche, great content, very helpful and informative.definitly sharing it.
At some point we (my business) took a strategic decision to increase the day rates to naturally reduce the load on the schedule and price out a set of clients. 2 surprising things happened: the schedule remained rammed and some of the worst clients (those who haggled the most and were highest maintenance) remained (at a significant premium too). The last bit was a baffling, but at least we started getting some compensation for the hassle.
Mr Nagy, You’ve come on leaps and bounds from when I started watching. When you started your day in the life of an electrician videos.
I thoroughly agree with your analogy, when I started my business as a side piece to get through COVID. (My primary job was on hold) I started too enthusiastically with the jobs that I picked up, I went into in-depth explanations. Not good when it’s a layman standing in front of you. This probably scared most customers off. Also I was too nice and people took the piss. I’ve learnt that you’ve got to be Stern but fair.
Also I might add, that in my part of the world. If Tradies see a nice car on the drive they double the Bill. Had it said to me all the time.
Know your worth, don't let a customer decide it for you.
As one of my best high end clients used to say "life is about managing people's expectations"
What if the car is on bricks?
Great advice all around! I especially liked that they're paying for experience, not hours.
That cuts zero ice in the commercial world, when you get involved with the big concerns they dictate the price and if you don't like it there is another hungry contractor that will step in. The bigger you get the more your margins are squeezed.
Another perspective, I ended up wiring and plumbing my home myself as I knew I could not afford someone to do the job as well as I wanted it done, I had no other choice.
Same! I had a plumber fit some pipes and ended up ripping it out and doing it again but properly!
This video couldn’t of come at a better time for me, I’m a double glazing business owner but what you’re saying about customers is the same for us, I learnt a lot from this video and will put some things into practice after watching this. The haggling part I’ve not walked away in the past and the customers are an absolute pain and you end us losing money and get down hearted. Great advice again Tom.
Love the commitment to PPE, nice pair of ear defenders on the top of your board
This is a good lesson well though out, it applies to all sectors not just sparks, great content well presented again
Love this channel !!! Keep em coming sir !!!
This is very interesting. I see something very similar in my work. Some clients "get it" and understand that our experience and expertise is what makes up the scope and timeline of a job. Others... Don't. They haggle, they cut on the time whilst attempting to increase the scope. They are happy to thin down the work for the satisfaction of manipulating the deal in their favour. (Spoiler: it isn't in their favour).
But there is one thing I disagree with. A service business is very much about time and hour/day rates. Knowledge and skill will cut down the time required but will drive up the rate whilst increasing quality. Marketing and reputation fill in the schedule (in different ways). The ability to handle unknowns successfully most of the times is what makes it work.
Genuinely my mates a carpenter. He was doing a job for a well known very wealthy person who lives local to him. Job was 5 grand. When the job was complete the guy had the 5 grand in cash and counted it out note by note into my mates hand. All in crisp €100 notes until the last €100 which was €20 notes . Altogether gave him €4980 and told him the the last €20 should offset the cost of the electric he used when using power tools and charging batteries.
what a brilliant video Tom, I must say that I already do most of what you said there, I learnt it the hard way and now I have great customers, I occasionally get the odd customer that is a nightmare but I can usually tell that they're a nightmare from the start and don't take the job on!
Excellent video. I do home repair in Southern California. Small job kinda guy, most clients out here have serious money. I tell the clients your home is my home and I never hangle price. I know what I am worth and my 40 years of experience shows in the completed job. You are exactlly right, repeat customers I will do anything for them, and yes they will get a price break. But I learned to judge a book by its cover, in just a few minutes talking with a new client, I know if they will be a PIA or not, if they are a PIA, I bid super high to not get the work...
bid super high, then if they do want you, just subcontract it out and make your money without the aggravation :D
This help me a lot for my mindset as an electricians. Will keep in mind of this guide.
I recently had a minor dispute with a customer over the price I charged for a job. I had to travel from north london to south to change 4 x downlight fittings which had old school wider than average downlights. I then had to go out find suitable lights and bezels to cover the holes. Overall a good 4 1/2 hrs from pillar to post. Quoted him £250. he said to me he expected to pay £180 for a full days work with other trades. I asked him has he ever had a tooth pulled before!? he said yes, I said " and you paid with no qualms" even though it probably took him 2 mins. I said Ive done as many years training in this field ,probably more longer than a dentist and on top of that I risk my eyes and even my life every time I take off a DB cover and that on top of the job is what you are paying me for. I said sure you may find cheaper but what you will find is people can introduce problems just through bad workmanship and experience. Dont under value yourselves boys and girls just because we get a bit dirty now and then!!!
My old gaffers rule was haggleing cost 25% extra
I watched a lot of your videos and share a lot of the same experiences. I just other electricians listen and stop trying to cut each other throat so we all can earn a decent profit. Excellent job and great content.
Sage advice Tom,
I only deal with the High End, the Low End killed my business 5 years ago.
So true. High end have high expectations and demand high quality, skill and experience to meet them.
100% agree, totally different industry however (3D graphics).
My pet hate is the ones who think 'just this little bit extra' for free.
I've had them screaming at me that I'm unprofessional because I won't do work that's not in the agreement... like mate, you came to me because you're tired of being ripped off by third world sweat shop suppliers (who give exactly zero craps about you or your project), you want a professional, this is what we look like!
I go for cheaper tyres, but have never haggled a tradesmen once, never will.
Oh man your bang on the buck there.
Nothing worse than customers trying to beat the price down.
Unfortunately I'm in the mid price bracket for the valeting and detailing in Edinburgh which I may have to out my prices up again at some point to get rid of they agonying customers
Coming from Canada our market seems to work quite different. We almost never give estimates, just a concrete quote but the UK have more safety items that could cause issues so I see why you estimate. We also work off of extra's alot. Like say I quote $12,000 for a standard trim 2000 ft/2 house and now they want pot lights instead of ceiling lights or add more outside outlets, etc. Then we do up a separate contract for that extra and the price is usually more expensive than the rate we use to calculate the job overhead. The thought process is we have a permit open so they cant hire another spark to do the extra while we are there and its less tear up for us to do it while the job is on going so we have a opportunity to charge a little more. I also used to double guess my labor alot when the job price with mats seemed high but you gotta hold fast with the labor price. They want the job done right then it takes the time it takes.
Another great video. Back in the early nineties and old boss of mine complained that customers want a rolls royce job for a ford fiesta price. It seems somethings never change... and that car a analogy is something we all understand.
I have found this to be exactly the right mentality to use.. and it works for me.
Great advice! Trying to be too competitive can be a race to the bottom! 👍🏻
Apart from a couple of minor points I whole heartedly agree with you. When ever I get a trades person in I always make a point that its a good job I want. Yes price is important but I'm not here to haggle and bother with that crap.
If there is something I can do before hand like put on back boxes to save a bit of time then excellent. But if they aren't level or I've done them wrong that's on me not the trades person.
The issue I have is being quote £700 pounds by a sparky to put in a new garage board and connect 1 light switch and 1 socket. Where the list material at around 60 quid and the rest is not even one days labour.
I wish I could find a sparky like Tom near me!!! Unfortunately we have a few too many trades people charging high end prices for a mid range job.
If you find a good trades person then treat them well and pay them right!
Great video 👍. Like many tradesmen who have been in this game for a long time, spend time on those regular customers who appreciate your time and work quality. Keep a way from the low end clients who want everything for ‘Nothing’ !!! 😁
I've got an interesting one currently. Had expected them to fit well into that higher end category of "wants the job done right and so long as it's not a rip-off it's all good". But started questioning the price and what I count as a "full day". Doesn't seem happy with the fact that, because they changed their mind about what they wanted the morning the job started, I've had to sod off early on the first day to go source and order/collect a bunch of different materials. Now I usually don't worry about time to initially take a look, plan, and get the parts for a job (within reason). But having to do it again last minute? Yes I'm going to charge for the hours spent looking up parts that will work the way they want and driving around out of town to get them in time, not everything is available off the shelf in the local Screwfix!
25% on materials if I have to get them or more if a long way.
Many thanks Tom.
Bloody _great_ analysis / breakdown, Tom. Can't recommend this enough 👍 And most of these haggly / squeezy c***s are usually buy-to-let landlords. Never haggle, just _walk away_ -- unless it's a _major_ client who is giving you _lots_ of regular work, as you say, but _those_ ones probably wouldn't dream of haggling.
Brilliant episode.... something you want really hear from experience sparks
Here's my recent experience.. need small shed wiring, 4x internal and 1x external socket, 2x internal lights, 1x external light. I've done all the conduit and mounted back boxes and lights to good standard. So all I need is supply and fit CU, SWA (~5-10m), run in singles and test. ~4hrs work I reckon. First quote wanted £630 incl VAT! Second quote despite two promises is non existant. Nothing odd, didn't ask to haggle or any unrealistic requirements. I guess when trades wanted Brexit this is why, to jack up prices and just pick and choose juicy jobs. Well great for the trades but sucks if you happen to be in a poor area and not Chelsea or leafy shires £££ and want a basic job done. Can't be bothered with a 3rd quote if this is the state of the market (heard similar stories from other people) so for now I have given up with this and may just do a lighting feed on a plug top. And people wonder why DIY dave 'has a go'...
I think the car tyre analogy is absolutely spot on.
Tom what a refreshing contractor you are, I have a 60M house in Holland Park that I have a PPM contract with, which is very close to your office..................... I promise I will be in touch.
I swear i'm adopted with handwriting like this 🤣😂🤣Top man! I will drop by one afternoon.
I paid full price for the professionals to do the job as promised before job done , what they didn't tell me they had a nightmare job in the morning a little job turned out to be a big job ... then come to my home late and did a rush job to catch up and the quality and finish was shocking as they had another job planned after my job ... but the building site closes at 4.30 or no access but because of this pressure or work I got the raw deal ... spent most of the day ripping it out and tidy up the wiring and making things look straight and fixed up properly ... snapped wall fixing / screws ... no one use hand tools anymore ?
Annoyed and when they called today as a courtesy call follow up I told them how it was and I wont be recommending them to anyone and even sending another team of 'fitters' to rectify the work that should have been done originally to a certain high standard for top money paid up in full before .... told them no Bodgit and Scarper ....
im a new self employed spark/gas fitter, i have had several quotes turned down some people getting irate at the price who think im ripping them off, i don't argue i just say no problem good luck
A problem we often come across is when the client says can we have a breakdown of costs or we ‘ l get the materials, .. can u give us a labour only cost ..’ the only thing about that is you often end up still using things out the van they’ve forgotten about or they buy the cheapest materials they can find that take longer to install , I’ve had it so many times especially with crappy light fittings which when you open the box you find they need assembling or are just awful to install . What’s the best thing to do when you get the ‘ we l buy the materials scenario ??
typical breakdown - £x to do the job and £0 to not do it :D
just a different type of haggling, they don't value what you're about to do
Add an obvious explicit significant markup on labour only estimates to account for time waiting on forgotten materials or replacement of substandard or faulty materials. Make sure they know it's going to be painful to them to go down that route.
Hi Paul B, I've had cheapskates try that old chestnut on me in the past. "Come and put a light up" they say, then you arrive to find a thousand piece puzzle, and they start questioning your ability because their mates boyfriend told them it's an half hour job.
The other one about the customer supplying materials, well the goods will be wrong, won't arrive in time, bits will be missing, you'll end end installing second hand or knock offs. In my experience the customer thinks they are being savvy but they are simply turning a into a poor version of what it could be.
From another Paul B.
Someone trade mark that tyre brand quick.
Is not a quote a legal contract whereas the estimate is that. and you need to state it might change if the situation, results etc change?
Interesting video Thomas, there are also clients that will pay over the odds if they think they are getting top end. The key is, finding them
Thing is I had a central heating engineer out he was the 1st quote I had and I took that price straight off and haggling I wouldn't dare to as I don't like customers to haggle with me and plus its pointless, to be honest I don't haggle with anything I just take what price they say.
Keep them coming Tom!
08:50 Ooh, the more of your videos I watch, the more awesome you become!
After reading the comment about the car analogy I was expecting the one about "wants a rolls Royce job for Ford focus prices"
But I haven't heard that one about tyres before and I've got to say never a truer word said.
Unfortunately some people only care about looks, and safety falls way down their list of priorities.
Bloody amazing Tom, this works in my cabinet making trade as well
Heard the interview you gave with the chap on Fix Radio. Very well presented show, always look forward to listening in, even though I'm not a spark. Fantastic stuff, top advice and very well explained. Thank you.
'Estimates versus quotes' isn't a thing: you can estimate a job and give a quote for it, but that quote may not be binding - Terms and Conditions are important, legally, and must sent with every quotation and invoice for them to have validity in law.
Always remember Accuracy, Brevity, Clarity: (ABC) and that a pad of three-part carbonless forms can be used to run any and all small contracting businesses. The back of each copy should be printed with you Standard Terms and Conditions of Sale - having them on a website Is not sufficient in the event of a dispute.
To avoid ambiguity of terms and meanings, for your staff and your customers alike, work should be priced as either 'A fixed-price job', or 'On an hourly rate.' The costing of both needs to include an element for both fixed and variable costs, materials--which should be marked up---and profit, which can be variable, but which is not allowed to drop below a minimum rate. This variability, or the lack of it depending on the circumstances, can drive customer and staff incentives, in a number or ways.
Spot on with the car and tyres thing!
Great Tom, so true 👍🏻🙌🏻
My ethnicity is Chinese, and I must say, what you said on 8:55 is something that Sun Tzu, the author The Art Of War would have said if it was in the 21st century 🤣😂. Man that made me laugh 😆.
Great insight. Have to admit I've always quoted following a visit to site, and only every had one issue with payment, in fact I've had one or two clients specifically say to me to not send an estimate, but I can see your argument for estimates over quotes
I don't understand quotes in a service market. I very rarely give quotes and when I do it's 3x or more the low estimate I think the job will be. My estimates are always a range, whatever I think it will cost low end and doubled for high end. Bill them hourly+costs no matter what and if they ring me up to complain I just tell them they're paying for the time it took to do the job, the estimate is just to give an impression.
I'm not a spark though, maybe people don't understand how much work it is to get a job done right because "it's just some wiring", idk.
I'm interested (looking at the client side and wanting to never be one of the bad clients) how do you control costs with estimates?
If you make an estimate for a board change but find, after starting, that the wiring is so bad it cannot be fixed, but the customer cannot budget for a re-wire how do you finish the job?
You're vet analogy was very accurate, its the knowledge and experience people are paying for.
My 'fear' if I as a client received a job estimate is that what if it costs 3x more and I don't have 3x more money in the bank?
I appreciate very much you consult at every stage with the client before making alterations but some things are out of your control (like finding old rubber cables in random places etc..) too.
I also appreciate however, fixed quote is bad for sparks in like instances so it very much is a fine balance.
Here Here
The cheapest car currently in the UK is the Ford Dacia, is it the best seller? No. Give a price then walk away. Never haggle, worst thing you can do. Client thinks they have you on the ropes and that you were out to cream them from the get go. Best advice I heard recently was “Present/give your quote with the air of no bullshit attached with it” clients will consciously & unconsciously pick this up from you. Know your worth!
Can you please tell me what camera you are using? Excellent picture quality. Great video as always 👍
Great video. 😎
Welcome back
Really helpful, all this stuff that wasn't taught in college that is extremely well needed.
I deal with a lot of different businesses the one I find it harder to get money out of is the bigger one the small business or the the client with not that much money pay on the spot or within the week I recently had a hell of a time to get money from a large business I honestly don't know how smaller businesses survive wait months and months to get paid when I'm buying I have to pay on the day or within a week when it's the other way round it needs to be the same for them it definitely a learning experience knowing who not to do business with I work with a lot of small businesses which are fantastic but the big ones nothing but hassle and grief
Nice material, I wish you the best.
Great information. I’ve been mulling over how to move forward and get away from pricing a day rate and running around like a headless chicken. I need to price the job not the time. It’s just an easy trap to fall into when you don’t have time to sit and think about it. Just make a bit of money on the materials but then end up doing 10 hours for £200. Not doing it anymore.
I don't pay contractors to work for a set amount of time i just want the job done. As long as the price for labour is fair the guy could get it done in 30 mins for all i care.
Thanks for the vid tom I wanna do more of my own work but customer haggle is real and draining.however even through a company is so much better just pick up your wages every friday with a pay slip the real money is dealing and pricing jobs on your own and learning how to negotiate and stay firm
Great content Tom.
We've all been burned by 'that client'.
It's good to get it out there from a trades point of view.
There's a lot of scrutiny on poor contractors but not much on the bad customers who want everything for nothing. They never understand experience as opposed to hours.
On a separate matter; Betty's getting married?! That came out of nowhere!
Also, we need an update on your stalker?
Retail is the worst for squeezing I did work for a very well known low-cost hotel chain I called double dodge and they were the pits they wanted first-class work for bargain basement prices plus freebies, and they took their time paying and always haggled the invoice. Their plant rooms were the pits they only ever did work they had to i.e. compliance and only fixed equipment that could reduce revenue everything else could rot. Let us not get onto pub chains the most mercenary bunch of f*** you will ever come across, they have zero loyalty everything is price based. It's a very competitive world out there and these firms know how to play it. God knows what it's like now after COVID, dread to think.
Hey, Nagy, you think domestic customers are difficult you are in for a shock with commercial. Have you worked out how many street lights per day you have to change just to break even?