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Agreed. Like everywhere, there has to be balance. Shaming everything different - literally bullying. No shame at all - literally saying "do whatever shit you want, it's okay👌, no one cares"
Shame is still around and will always be. It’s a natural human feeling. I think the reason we may be seeing more “shameless” people is not because people aren’t shaming them, but because they have better access to validation (internet strangers) to empower themselves. They’re able to find enough like minds that help them overcome the shame they receive at home. For better or for worse.
Cool, now let's all agree on what is "despicable" and worthy of "shame." Oh, oops. Guess you should've thought this more thoroughly since it sounds nice on the surface, until you think about it for a second or two. If we can't agree on moral and ethical standards (and we can't), then it doesn't matter. You can't try to shame someone who thinks they truly did nothing wrong, it just gives them ammunition. Conversely, this can also end up in scenarios where people just arbitrarily decide what is "shameful" and peer-pressure people, regardless of it makes sense or not. Oh hey, would you look at that, it's already the case! This is the reason you get racism/sexism/bla bla, shaming. It won't go away, again, because people will never 100% agree on these things.
This is a really difficult topic to discuss and address, but I think what shame boils down to is a power dynamic. In my own personal experience, I have some things in my past that I still feel shameful about having done to this day, but why? Typically because of someone who told me something was wrong from some moral and/or religious code. Typically what came with a breaking or failing of this said code was a punishment, or a shame experience of being talked down to, with most of them being so far that one thought they’d go to hell if not corrected or stopped. So I think the shift away from shame isn’t really about shame at all, but about removal of retributive punishments that get attached to shame from the power dynamic of the person in authority. Shame has never truly gone away, so I don’t think there is a need to ‘bring it back.’ It’s always there, but I am all for the continuation of public discourse around hard topics and if, at the time, someone is found to have broken some law or code that currently exists, that we would do our best to help them along rather than heap more shame on them through punishment. If someone is that big a problem to others around them, my extent of punishment would be to simply put them in prison and just let them live there.
Thank you for sharing. This is insightful and giving me more to think about. I especially appreciate and I am thinking more into what you said about the power dynamic and the one that is administering the shame. There is a power there that like so many other things, can be taken overboard and like you said the “retributive acts” based on what it is that is being “shamed” could be taken to an extreme. I often forget how engrained religious practices can be for some as I did not personally grow up in a highly strict religious house or institution. But I did grow up with very strict old world values and expectations. I can see some overlap, but it is blind spot for myself that I appreciate you discussing. It’s given me much to think about. Thanks again for sharing your views and being part of this discourse. ✌🏼
@@empathictimes thanks for your kind words, and thanks for posting the video. I was hesitant to watch it because of the very shame that I feel still, and to thus affirm shame again is a bit scary. But I definitely get the point you’re making with this, but I wanted to offer my perspective as something to consider what else comes connected with shame for a lot of people that is often not thought of.
Yes that’s somewhat true unfortunately. But the younger generations are much more diverse than generations of the past, so I feel like that kind of shaming is going away. As for laws. Laws are not just created because one or two people make a video. I could propose legal limitations and regulations, along with penalties all day. But if people are not understanding the severity or regularity of this type of behavior, those proposed laws won’t matter. The more that people wake up to this being problem and seeing that we have to do something about it, then we can have more change in the legal aspect. That all takes time though. Hence why I think we as a collective need to do a better job of not promoting that type of content and reporting it when we see it. And if we see a parent being stupid in public, filming their kid having a meltdown instead of helping them, being all “hey, wtf you doing?” Parents are not perfect. And when they are being shitty parents, we as a society should be able to say so.
for me the only kind of shame that you'll need is like just think of this like MasterChef show just as long as your shame and your criticism is like Gordon Ramsay it's fine his yelling is there to make you better there's the kind of shame that we shouldn't be using don't be like Joe in that masterchef that's the WORST kind of Criticism and shame
I’m not familiar with master chef but I am with Gordon Ramsey. And I completely agree. It’s about making us better. Sometimes the approach might be harsh, but when we are in a world of people that seem to have never received that harshness, it’s necessary. It’s part of life. ✌🏼
First of all, you're using shame as an incredibly broad term. You're also proposing we should shame the shameless? Like that'd work. Secondly, do you know how ruthless the collective is? When we pander to the collective, we're are pandering to the most mediocre of society, to the majority. This means that if we operate under your proposals, whatever the majority deems shame-worthy, it will be shamed. This leaves minorities practically defenseless.
I see what you’re saying and I know what I am proposing is not fool proof. You bring up a good point. “Who is the arbiter of what is shameful?” I feel like the basics that are laid out in almost every religion and spiritual practice of not hurting one another, not committing heinous acts of depravity (r*pe, incest, adultery etc.), protecting the young, old and disabled etc., is a decent start. But I hear what you mean about the collective and who ultimately decides. In a perfect world, we would all have our basic needs met, be critical thinkers and a well educated populace. Maybe that’s where more of the focus should be and everything else would naturally fall into place?
Pshhh. It would not change anything, because the people who impact the world and our lives the most don't even feel it. The cancel culture and outrage posting us plebes do amongst ourselves has increased dramatically, and that is true shaming as it implies someone's a 'bad person'. Guilting would be for bad behaviors. We need to be uniting.
I hear y’a. I don’t think people will get to guilt if shame doesn’t happen but that’s just my thought on it. We definitely need more guilt in our society as well. ✌🏼
@@mamandapanda185 you are right. I read that a little too fast and didn’t see more of the depth you went into. You are right that the people at the top, won’t feel this. Unfortunately many of the worlds leaders are likely psychopaths that feel nothing. Hence our many, many problems. This video was not for them though. It’s for us. I guess us “plebs” as you would say, doing all our “rage posting” and “cancel culture” to one another as part of the distraction campaign the elites have us taking part in. It’s all part of the illusion. I was just saying my piece. As for “not understanding a lot of psychology” I never said I was a psychologist or that I knew “a lot.” I’m talking from experience and observation. I had a lot of research for this video that I didn’t include or even go into because frankly, most people don’t care and click away when you’re trying to go more in depth. Can’t make everyone happy. ✌🏼
I didn’t say we shouldn’t have laws. I believe we should, which is something I addressed in a previous video that I linked here. But we also can’t just create laws. That comes from elected officials and we see how well they do with things now. Lol. This is about when WE see something, instead of looking away and telling ourselves “someone else will take care of that or report that” we do it. I think this involves all aspects of society. Not just laws but the people that believe in the enforcement of those laws and the necessity of having them. A lot of people don’t see how bad this content is getting.
Wouldn't need laws if people acted right or in a decent manner. You shame the parents, don't watch their videos and they can't expose their children for clicks because then no one is clicking on them. People steal, murder, etc. which are all illegal by law but either people don't get caught, skate around with a good lawyer or just don't care. We can't always rely on the law/other people to do the job.
Its sad seeing so much "fat pride". If you are someone I care about, I will shame you. Not to mock you, but to motivate you to improve. Seriously, many of my family members are crazy obese, and its sad because I don't wanna see them die early due to health issues.
I’m very concerned with the “body positivity” movements swing towards “fat is healthy.” It’s dangerous. It’s stupid and I can’t help but feel like it’s an entire op. Like so many things, it started from a good place (body diversity, disabled representation etc.) all of which I do agree with. But acting like obesity isn’t a thing, going to “obesity” doctors that don’t give you the slap in the face you need when you need it 🤦🏻♀️. It’s sad. And I’m seeing it everywhere.
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I've been saying this for years. I fear shameless people
Agreed. Like everywhere, there has to be balance.
Shaming everything different - literally bullying.
No shame at all - literally saying "do whatever shit you want, it's okay👌, no one cares"
This!
Shame is still around and will always be. It’s a natural human feeling. I think the reason we may be seeing more “shameless” people is not because people aren’t shaming them, but because they have better access to validation (internet strangers) to empower themselves. They’re able to find enough like minds that help them overcome the shame they receive at home. For better or for worse.
Shame and shun the shameless!
Specifically leaders see themselves as above reproach from the workplace to the government. They think the job title is to be shameless.
You are right.
Damn right girl!
Cool, now let's all agree on what is "despicable" and worthy of "shame." Oh, oops. Guess you should've thought this more thoroughly since it sounds nice on the surface, until you think about it for a second or two. If we can't agree on moral and ethical standards (and we can't), then it doesn't matter. You can't try to shame someone who thinks they truly did nothing wrong, it just gives them ammunition.
Conversely, this can also end up in scenarios where people just arbitrarily decide what is "shameful" and peer-pressure people, regardless of it makes sense or not. Oh hey, would you look at that, it's already the case! This is the reason you get racism/sexism/bla bla, shaming. It won't go away, again, because people will never 100% agree on these things.
0% dislikes for a reason
People hate shame but don;t avoid what would make them feel it.
Oh I love this!!
I told my friend he's getting fat, and he needs to change.
*He thanked me*
This is a really difficult topic to discuss and address, but I think what shame boils down to is a power dynamic.
In my own personal experience, I have some things in my past that I still feel shameful about having done to this day, but why? Typically because of someone who told me something was wrong from some moral and/or religious code. Typically what came with a breaking or failing of this said code was a punishment, or a shame experience of being talked down to, with most of them being so far that one thought they’d go to hell if not corrected or stopped. So I think the shift away from shame isn’t really about shame at all, but about removal of retributive punishments that get attached to shame from the power dynamic of the person in authority.
Shame has never truly gone away, so I don’t think there is a need to ‘bring it back.’ It’s always there, but I am all for the continuation of public discourse around hard topics and if, at the time, someone is found to have broken some law or code that currently exists, that we would do our best to help them along rather than heap more shame on them through punishment. If someone is that big a problem to others around them, my extent of punishment would be to simply put them in prison and just let them live there.
Thank you for sharing. This is insightful and giving me more to think about.
I especially appreciate and I am thinking more into what you said about the power dynamic and the one that is administering the shame. There is a power there that like so many other things, can be taken overboard and like you said the “retributive acts” based on what it is that is being “shamed” could be taken to an extreme.
I often forget how engrained religious practices can be for some as I did not personally grow up in a highly strict religious house or institution. But I did grow up with very strict old world values and expectations. I can see some overlap, but it is blind spot for myself that I appreciate you discussing. It’s given me much to think about.
Thanks again for sharing your views and being part of this discourse. ✌🏼
@@empathictimes thanks for your kind words, and thanks for posting the video. I was hesitant to watch it because of the very shame that I feel still, and to thus affirm shame again is a bit scary.
But I definitely get the point you’re making with this, but I wanted to offer my perspective as something to consider what else comes connected with shame for a lot of people that is often not thought of.
It depends on what theyre doing and if its wothin their control the change. Poor behavior usually.
Idk man i think taking legal action or placing new laws where needed are better than shaming.The collective will always shame minorities.
Yes that’s somewhat true unfortunately. But the younger generations are much more diverse than generations of the past, so I feel like that kind of shaming is going away.
As for laws. Laws are not just created because one or two people make a video. I could propose legal limitations and regulations, along with penalties all day. But if people are not understanding the severity or regularity of this type of behavior, those proposed laws won’t matter. The more that people wake up to this being problem and seeing that we have to do something about it, then we can have more change in the legal aspect. That all takes time though. Hence why I think we as a collective need to do a better job of not promoting that type of content and reporting it when we see it. And if we see a parent being stupid in public, filming their kid having a meltdown instead of helping them, being all “hey, wtf you doing?” Parents are not perfect. And when they are being shitty parents, we as a society should be able to say so.
for me the only kind of shame that you'll need is like just think of this like MasterChef show just as long as your shame and your criticism is like Gordon Ramsay it's fine his yelling is there to make you better
there's the kind of shame that we shouldn't be using don't be like Joe in that masterchef that's the WORST kind of Criticism and shame
I’m not familiar with master chef but I am with Gordon Ramsey. And I completely agree. It’s about making us better. Sometimes the approach might be harsh, but when we are in a world of people that seem to have never received that harshness, it’s necessary. It’s part of life. ✌🏼
Certainly a take empy!
First of all, you're using shame as an incredibly broad term. You're also proposing we should shame the shameless? Like that'd work.
Secondly, do you know how ruthless the collective is? When we pander to the collective, we're are pandering to the most mediocre of society, to the majority. This means that if we operate under your proposals, whatever the majority deems shame-worthy, it will be shamed. This leaves minorities practically defenseless.
I see what you’re saying and I know what I am proposing is not fool proof. You bring up a good point. “Who is the arbiter of what is shameful?” I feel like the basics that are laid out in almost every religion and spiritual practice of not hurting one another, not committing heinous acts of depravity (r*pe, incest, adultery etc.), protecting the young, old and disabled etc., is a decent start. But I hear what you mean about the collective and who ultimately decides. In a perfect world, we would all have our basic needs met, be critical thinkers and a well educated populace. Maybe that’s where more of the focus should be and everything else would naturally fall into place?
Pshhh. It would not change anything, because the people who impact the world and our lives the most don't even feel it. The cancel culture and outrage posting us plebes do amongst ourselves has increased dramatically, and that is true shaming as it implies someone's a 'bad person'. Guilting would be for bad behaviors. We need to be uniting.
I hear y’a. I don’t think people will get to guilt if shame doesn’t happen but that’s just my thought on it. We definitely need more guilt in our society as well. ✌🏼
@@empathictimes I don't think you understood my comment--any of it. I don't think you understand a lot about psychology, either.
@@mamandapanda185 you are right. I read that a little too fast and didn’t see more of the depth you went into.
You are right that the people at the top, won’t feel this. Unfortunately many of the worlds leaders are likely psychopaths that feel nothing. Hence our many, many problems. This video was not for them though. It’s for us. I guess us “plebs” as you would say, doing all our “rage posting” and “cancel culture” to one another as part of the distraction campaign the elites have us taking part in. It’s all part of the illusion. I was just saying my piece.
As for “not understanding a lot of psychology” I never said I was a psychologist or that I knew “a lot.” I’m talking from experience and observation. I had a lot of research for this video that I didn’t include or even go into because frankly, most people don’t care and click away when you’re trying to go more in depth.
Can’t make everyone happy. ✌🏼
Why do you wanna shame parents that expose their children for clicks and not have laws placed to protect children from such parents?
I didn’t say we shouldn’t have laws. I believe we should, which is something I addressed in a previous video that I linked here. But we also can’t just create laws. That comes from elected officials and we see how well they do with things now. Lol.
This is about when WE see something, instead of looking away and telling ourselves “someone else will take care of that or report that” we do it. I think this involves all aspects of society. Not just laws but the people that believe in the enforcement of those laws and the necessity of having them. A lot of people don’t see how bad this content is getting.
Wouldn't need laws if people acted right or in a decent manner. You shame the parents, don't watch their videos and they can't expose their children for clicks because then no one is clicking on them.
People steal, murder, etc. which are all illegal by law but either people don't get caught, skate around with a good lawyer or just don't care. We can't always rely on the law/other people to do the job.
Its sad seeing so much "fat pride". If you are someone I care about, I will shame you. Not to mock you, but to motivate you to improve. Seriously, many of my family members are crazy obese, and its sad because I don't wanna see them die early due to health issues.
I’m very concerned with the “body positivity” movements swing towards “fat is healthy.” It’s dangerous. It’s stupid and I can’t help but feel like it’s an entire op. Like so many things, it started from a good place (body diversity, disabled representation etc.) all of which I do agree with. But acting like obesity isn’t a thing, going to “obesity” doctors that don’t give you the slap in the face you need when you need it 🤦🏻♀️. It’s sad. And I’m seeing it everywhere.
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