Discussion about PFD Flotation
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 авг 2024
- Consider signing this petition asking PFD manufacturers to make better PFDs with flotation above the minimum required: www.change.org/p/high-float-p...
Check out Aarons article about PFD floatation at www.brexpeditions.com/rafting....
⚙ SUPPORT GEAR GARAGE:
• Become a Gear Garage member- / @geargaragetv
• Consider supporting the show on Patreon- / zcollier
🚣 ZACH & NORTHWEST RAFTING COMPANY:
• Learn more about Zach-www.nwrafting.com/about/zacha...
• Online Whitewater Rowing Course-www.whitewatereducation.com/p...
• Online Fundamentals of Swiftwater Rescue Course-www.whitewatereducation.com/p...
• Guided trips and instruction-www.nwrafting.com/
• Outfitter Safety Kits: A Handy Checklist-www.nwrafting.com/articles/sa...
📸 SOCIAL MEDIA:
• Instagram- / geargaragetv
• Twitter- / zcollier
• Facebook- / nwrafting
📽️ RELATED VIDEOS:
• Gear Garage Series- • Gear Garage Episodes
• R-1ing with the Hyside Mini Max- • R1-ing with the Hyside...
📦 FAVORITE PRODUCTS:
• Kokatat Huck Throw Bag-amzn.to/3n9wMza
• Spyderco Atlantic Salt Knife-amzn.to/32xThaX
• Fox 40 Sonik Blast Whistle-amzn.to/3zcRpQL
• Bluewater Titan Anchor Sling-amzn.to/3sCkgN1
![Jordan Adetunji - KEHLANI REMIX (feat. Kehlani) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EeJ8n5PxFGE/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for addressing this topic! I don't love a low flotation pfd and am a bigger guy. I've read a bunch of articles lately researching "flush drowning" have you done any videos on this topic? If not would you?
Best advice in the whole video...... if you are not physically fit and unable to "aggressively self rescue" you have no business wearing a low profile pfd.
I really appreciate your candid thoughts on safety. Knowing that you have more experience than I ever will, I listen....
That's nice to hear. Thanks!
Experiences shape our values. Your story of chasing down that swimmer to no avail is gut wrenching. Thank you for taking that negative and allowing it it to help shape you into a strong advocate for river safety.
Glad it was helpful
Great topic Zach thanks for putting this out really appreciate what your doing!
Thanks! I dig you’re channel- thank you for all your videos.
I really appreciate this episode, Zach. I'm a beginner rafter mostly doing class II-III+ and have an interest in moving up, but as a fellow 220lber I really hadn't considered how my vest was basically doing the bare minimum for me. I watch countless RUclips videos on rapids before I run them and I've seen several where the swimmer is underwater for a scary amount of time. I can't help but wonder how much safer those swimmers would have been if they had a vest on that sucked them back to the surface more aggressively. You've inspired me to go in for a NRS Big Water Guide (If the regular had a knife slot I'd get that, but it is what it is) PFD with 23lbs of flotation (over my current one with 15.5) before my upcoming class IV trip next month.
Edit: ordered. My old jacket is much more breathable so I'll hang on to it for packrafting and everything up to class III, but I do feel a lot better about this. I shopped at REI before getting my last jacket and I don't think a single jacket they had in store was more than 16lbs so I didn't even know these existed.
Just letting you know, the algorithm has served me this video, without me being into rafting or any other water sport.
I found it interesting and I learnt something I will be wearing a life jacket appropriate to my needs.
Thanks for the nice comment
I'm a gumby. Some experience but not a whole lot. I've intuitively wanted a higher flotation vest. This is the first time I've ever heard they exist for whitewater. Thank you
Good video and I agree with you 100%. I have always used a NRS Big Water Guide, and find it quite comfortable, even when kayaking. I personally like a higher ride in the water when swimming due to the things that you mentioned, often to the dismay of the very few "macho" boaters I paddle with on occasion.
I agree 100%. Fit with shoulder straps is important too for me. My 2011 Astral LE pfd fixed shoulder straps have it fit too high on me. It still looks new with some fading. For many years I have used a Kokatat ronin pro that enables straps to loosen where I can have it lower on my body.
And all the pros you mentioned hold true for me. Same flotation at 16.5 lbs, but very different performance. 5’8” 170lbs, 17 years rafting experience for reference
Thanks for sharing!
Great video, keeping updates please
Great discussion Zach.
An issue with whitewater especially, is the aeration. A swimmer might be in water that is 50% or more, just air, which negates much of the flotation.
Another good reason for higher flotation.
Not a rafter, but I enjoy your channel as lots of your gear reviews and risk management mindsets cross over with canoe tripping. I'd love to see a pfd design where you can add a piece of foam to boost up the floatation based on the needs for the specific trip. Flat water trip, low profile, sleek, lots of mobility for paddling. Whitewater trip, add a foam insert into a sleeve to gain some lbs of floatation. I could see this being beneficial across the paddling industry for those that are into multiple disciplines of their activities.
That's a great idea. Did you sign the petition and leave a comment there?
The old Lotus p-Vest used to have this option. You could add a foam ‘implant’ to the front pocket for extra floatation.
I wore an Astral Green vest on the GC last summer and, after some of Gear Garages earlier conversations about this, cut a pool noodle and would stuff it in my hand pocket for the bigger water. I realize that it goes against the manufacturer's design and could create other hazards but, three pounds of added float is three pounds. Fortunately, I kept the boat upright and never swam on that trip so I didn't get a real life scenario test. I did use it a bit in a swift water rescue class prior to the trip and it didn't hamper my ability to swim.
I’ve been shoving thin foam sheets into pfd pockets if there’s room for them. The Astral Green jacket has somewhat of a sleeve/pouch potential on the inside of back panel. I have yet to cut a price of foam to insert here but I think a thin foam “sheet” inserted here could add a few more pounds of floatation.
Fit is so important. Had a bad swim in a high flotation vest. It was tight, but rode up so that my mouth was below water level much of the time. I ended up using one hand to hold my life jacket lower, which inhibited self rescue. Have swam since in rescue classes in a vest with lower flotation but a much more secure strap and buckle system and did much better.
Yep it would be great to have a PFD with more flotation and proper fit
Think this is probably the best video I've seen from you. Note that the body is below boyancy neutral, that's why you sink to the bottom when you have no air in your lung, but with air and the air in your clothing you are near neutral. Where it comes to be 'stuck in a hole' because of high flotation I'm pretty sure that comes from Weir incidents, never seen that on the river.
It does happen on the river but it's pretty rare. I'm glad you enjoyed this one.
@@GearGarageTV Remember seeing 2 videos of that kind of incidents, both involving pourovers, one is relativly new actually. But never experienced or seen it myself.
Good discussion Zach. Mobility vs flotation. The users body type and ability seems to be the defining points of which pfd suits them best. Sometimes I even call it a “life jacket”
Yep. I refer to Type 1 PFDs as "Life Jackets" as they are designed to turn unconscious swimmers on their backs.
@@GearGarageTV I’ve had one too many people say “what?” When I say ‘pfd’. It makes me feel like I’m patronizing them. Not everyone (mostly commercial guests) readily understand what ‘pfd’ means; however, “life jacket” is very clear. As a side not: I won’t go into the whole pfd vs life jacket discussion in a safety talk. It’s just useless info and takes up precious time of the audience’s attention span. Blah blah blah.
Well said Zach. As an ageing middle aged man who has been naturally floating a little more these days ;) , agree with everything your saying especially in bigger water and spring flows. In big hydraulics with more mass these days I definitely flush deeper than years past which can be alarming for sure.
Also, NRS used to have a shirt that had built in extra floatation years ago but haven't seen anything like it for many years now. That could be a nice addition to a typical (low float) 16-17lbs PFD when needed. Any thoughts on something like this?
I ended up swimming Tumbleweed in Alberton Gorge mid May of 1997. I think the river was around 30,000 CFS. I was wearing a full 7mm wetsuit and a low float PFD. Despite being a young, strong swimmer, the river sucked me down and kept me down for over a minute. I agree that we should all probably be wearing higher floatation PFDs.
Thanks for sharing
Maybe Hiko's guardian PFD is interesting then: 17 lbs for size M, 20 lbs for size L and 21 for XL. I don't get why the other manufacturer's PFDs don't increase in buoyancy if they increase in size.... Gear Garage is great, keep up your great work! Thanks!
Thanks for the vid! What astral pfd are you wearing?
I'm 250 with a lot of it in my gut. Most whitewater pfd's ride up on me when I end up in the water.
So I wear the nrs big water. It keeps me up really good. The down side is I don't have pockets and it's kind of bulky.
Same here, I wish there was a way to get a lash tab or pocket on that pfd
To your point. As a guide, dealing with crews of multiple capabilities (body types, swim-ability), my gear might differ greatly from that of my crew.
Great video.
I was swimming in my Astral last weekend I’m 200 pounds Didn’t seem like much flotation probably should go on a diet what are your thoughts on the NRS big water life jacket. Also love the show watch every episode when’s the next gear garage. I think it’s been a week or two. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. 👍
Yep the NRS Big Water jacket is cool
Im a little older with mobility issues, 6'4" 230, i use force 6 r3, 32lbs flotation. Allows me to access water I wouldnt otherwise be able too safely.
I have been looking a lot of pfds online, and you are right, there are not many options for more float. Some of us definitely need more than the minimum. I sink like a stone and I only weigh 185. I hope more manufacturers will figure out there is a demand for more float. As far as what is on the market now, the newer version of the NRS Zen Rescue has 18.6 llbs, which isn't as much as I would like, but it seems better than the most other vests. Many sites online are still listing the older specs for the Zen, which has 17.5. I emailed NRS customer service and they told me the new ones all have 18.6. Of course, I don't know if the extra weight of the rescue harness offsets the extra float or not. Hope this helps.
Did you sign the online petition?
@@GearGarageTV Yep!
thanks for the video! can you recommend a light whitewater pfd (for packrafting) with a lot of buoyancy? I weigh 110 kg and 70N is not enough buoyancy for me. but I only find ww-pfds up to 75N.
I don't think a light PFD exists with high buoyancy
Havent seen full video yet, but last year i had a very nasty swim in a Rio Claro, Chile in a hidraulic of a waterfall wall, i ended up being suck all the way to the buttom and released. If the water didnt suck me i would probably have died because i was stationary against the wall.
I have always wondered what would have happen if i had a high flotation pfd, it is possible that with more flotation the water didnt suck me down.
I was using a very old tipycal astral rescue pfd that im sure it have lost flotation.
I got a NRS big water guide PFD this season for doing more challenging rafting trips, the only downside is the pockets kind of suck, idk where i will put a knife. Ill get a NRS Zen when my blue jacket wears out in a year or so. the ZEN seems to be a good sweet spot at 19.6 lbs of float.
Just because I like to argue I would contend that a bigger pfd will increase your drag in the water. Drag is based on surface area and the way a pfd works is by being low density by virtue of large volume and low mass. Large volume = more surface area = more drag. Even if you are bringing some volume of your body out of the water, the volume of PFD required to do that will be greater than what is displaced. That being said the benefit from a bigger PDF of coming to the surface quicker to start swimming sooner is a larger factor, plus giving better vision and preventing dunks to need to re-orient yourself.
Have you ever seen the whistle get caught on a perimeter line? I moved my whistle from the shoulder spot to the pocket zipper as that's where I keep my knife on my green jacket. Petition signed ty Zach
This "Large volume = more surface area = more drag" is absolutely incorrect. A PFD can have more volume and maintain pretty close to the same surface area. A rocket has a small surface area and a large volume. A parachute has a large surface area and low volume. The surface area that matters for drag is what is facing the fluid. A PDF doesn't generally take up space outside of the body so it's effect on surface area for drag is negligible.
@@GearGarageTV Certainly the relationship between surface area and volume is influenced by shape (rocket vs parachute) but it is still proportional, you cant increase one without increasing the other without changing the shape of the object. for PFDs and bodies I think we can say they have a similar ellipsoid segments. I would agree the drag created by a pfd would be negligible compared to your overall body...its just less negligible than the negligible gain of displaced out of the water.
Definitely getting into the weeds, but the surface area beyond what is "facing" the drag would also have an effect i.e. if you are freestyle swimming your thighs still create drag with dynamic friction and all that. Plus pfds like the green jacket have the external pocket with created more surface area for drag than if it was a solid piece.
Don’t forget it’s easier to hit a roll kayaking with more flotation. It will help get your hands to the surface faster
The big problem I have with my high float vest (NRS Guide vest, 22#) is that it makes it harder to row. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I took both my vests on the Grand Canyon last month, since we needed an extra vest per NPS requirements. Mostly I wore the low float, but but the high float on for some of the more difficult rapids. I rowed the whole thing, and never swam, so who knows?
I think the PFD manufacturers could make a 22 lb vest that is more comfortable and ergonomic than the NRS guide vest
@@GearGarageTV I agree. It would be good to have a high float vest that didn't snag the oar handles in Lava.
Zach thumb through “Total Immersion Swimming”. Talks about head position while swimming, chest position, hip position in swimming to make you float and move faster through the water. When you need to swim faster. More float is better🤘🤘🤘
Great suggestion - I'll check it out
A lot of rafting companies use high float pfds for their guests. Many of these guests probably aren't going to aggressively self rescue. They may get pulled into the raft by a companion or guide. This supports your contention.
I think one thing to consider is when boaters are wearing old PFDs (sun damaged and lots of mildew) that may not have the full level of flotation. They also may not realize this pitfall. It may look cool and telegraph your level of experience, but may not be a good risk management approach.
Yep older pfds should be replaced
I’m always nervous when I see the surfers on Lunchcounter rapid on the Snake River in Alpine, WY. They surf with no PFD and swim it all the time. It does have a gentle pool after it, but the currents run deep.
Yep that makes me nervous too
What are your thoughts on the new PFD rating system the USCG and Transport Canada have implemented? What do you think the minimum standard should be for white water under the new system?
I don’t know much about the first thing you mentioned so I do t have an opinion. I think the minimum is good but that PFD manufacturers should recognize that is a minimum and that we need some options with more buoyancy.
Do you think that the water in a rapid is less dense than “normal” water because there is more air in the same volume of water? If that is the case, it would seem a higher flotation PFD would be more beneficial. Always enjoy your views on boating. Thanks!
Good point joe, aerated white water definitely makes it harder to float at the surface.
Yep probably but as with many things in the real world "it's complicated"
Absolutely aeration plays a huge difference, but do u think manufacturers are considering that when they build their pfd’s to the minimum standard?! Yeah, me neither. When was the last time you swam and thought to yourself, “damn I’m floating too high, wish I had less buoyancy”?! Yeah me neither! 😁
I don't think you are heavy enough to see the benefit of additional flotation from flubber. After having lost 110 lbs, I can tell you there absolutely is a difference in my flotation (I'm much less buoyant now). And while the heat is much easier to deal with, the cold is much harder, lol. Thanks for this talk... it's great to hear from someone with far more experience than I have (well, maybe not in the flubber dept, lol)
Stolquist, why you stop making the kahuna?
That is a very good question
An afterthought, I have an NRS Vapour XL. It has 15.5 pounds of flotation. Does that mean that the size small has less flotation? I would be surprised. It seems that the pounds of flotation should be proportional to the size of the boater.
On most pfds the only difference between the sizes are the straps
I wear an NRS guide vest based on watching Zac’s PFD videos. I will say I get dork shamed for wearing a rental vest a lot but I’m cool with it
Good choice
Been rocking the same old, 16 Ibs of float, NRS ninja for years and years, but just grabbed the NRS rapid rescuer. There are some possibly very long gorge swims where I boat now and I was tired of getting beat up and fighting to get above water the whole damn time. Makes it hard to recover a boat and guests if you're already smoked from the swim by the time you get on top of it.
Good call!
I've seen you wearing that pfd in a prior video....thought to myself "surely he doesn't wear that on the river?"
I wear it kayaking often
Prompted me to check... my extrasport only has 16 lbs buoyancy, my perception has 20lbs. Lol well, 😆 I'm partial to the extrasport for exactly the same reasons you mentioned. I'm 170lb. Strong swimmer, active self rescuer. Switched from the old-school hi-float to that perception pfd in 90' and the extrasport soon after.
Why do most “pfd” are maximizing 16”? And, they are quality pfd.
Why not offer more floatation?
I understand $.
But, guides and hard core guys (girls)
Want more?
So a "Dad" body is more buoyant than someone fit due to the difference in density. This may be offset by the swimming ability of a "fit" person, but still, a factor to consider. 45% body fat would render you neutrally buoyant, lol.
You dad bod means more mass so it takes longer to resurface and your ability to self rescue will be diminished.
@@GearGarageTV Let me clarify my first statement. Both bodies with the same mass but different BMIs; the dad bod would be more buoyant. So a 100kg man with 45% bmi vs a 100kg man with 10%bmi, dad bod would float, fit man sinks
@@GearGarageTV Buoyancy is determined by displaced water, not mass. The more water you displace, the more buoyant you are.
Both bids with the same mass is a big assumption. Most people with dad bods have a higher mass than their fit counterpart. Based on your assumption yes the dad bod has slightly more buoyancy.