Bottom Shaming in the Gay Community
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2022
- One of the most common forms of sexual shaming we see in the gay community is towards bottoming. The closed-minded narratives that are perpetuated around receptive anal sex reflect a patriarchal belief system that inhibits our growth as a community.
In this episode of #GayMenGoingDeeper, we are tackling the topic of bottom shaming. Specifically, we will answer these questions:
1. Where do you think bottom shaming stems from?
2. Why do you think bottom shaming keeps being perpetuated in the community?
3. How do you think we as a community can start moving away from bottom shaming and start empowering ourselves?
Join us as we unpack the causes and effects of sexual shaming and understand how we all play a role in elevating the dialogue around sex and sexuality.
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Have you ever experienced bottom shaming?
Let us know in the comments!
Simple men was never design to play the role of a woman / espically in sex that is y we have so many STD
No
Never overtly. However, like every gay or straight man for that matter, have had to deal with all the patriarchal oppression, and brainwashing about just what sexuality is, and appropriate expressions of it, along with all the shame that goes along with it. So in that I guess I can say I have experienced this phenomenon. But it has never stopped me from having successful, long-term relationships, with healthy sexual activity involved.
But hey, I’m 66, and have been out since I was 13 years old, and have worked both within the gay community and without. So you can say that I’ve had lots of experience’s dealing with this issue
Yes, in the case mentioned by Caelan. I am actually verse, but I was sometimes told that there are no verse guys and that I was really bottom. Mind, I had just topped some of those fellows, and they seemed pretty content with the experience, but why let facts get in the way of comforting theories. I guess it is like being bi. Lots of people say there are no bi men, just gay men who are chicken shit about it. You all have my sympathy.
Indirectly, yes
As a young man I was a sex worker, meaning escort, porn actor, model, and dancer. I bottomed a LOT and I never experienced the shaming that goes on today. The community hasn't evolved its DEvolved into something I don't recognize anymore. I celebrate bottom men. No one gets to shame bottom men in front of me. If anyone does they get a 20 minute lecture from me.
I appreciate your perspective and the stand you're taking. It's important to celebrate and respect all individuals within the community. Keep advocating for what you believe in! 👏🌈
Im a total oral bottom...never been shamed...but applauded.
To all you bottoms out there, don't be sad or upset. Us tops want you to know, we will always stand behind you and back you up all the way baby! We love ya!
Nice play on words 🙂, and true
O you are so cute. I wish I could a man like you
Well, it's true! You can always tell when a bottom isn't fulfilled. He's miserable and very unhappy, very curt, no sense of humor. The poor guy just isn't getting any! When I walk into a room, I can tell who's getting laid in a room filled with bottoms just by the negativity in the air. You think I'm joking! Tops across America, please, for God's sakes! Don't take your bottom partner for granted! Give him the respect and love he needs! Don't be selfish in a relationship. If you don't take care of your bottom, someone else will. Bring him flowers and take the time out of your busy day to show him, you love him and value him as a great partner! A little bit of caring goes a long way!
It's especially weird for guys who present or are perceived as more masculine and by default are expected to be tops. It isn't helped by people who want to insist that there is no such thing as exclusive tops and bottoms, because THERE ARE and it's denigrating to ignore and invalidate them.
There should be a guy in this conversation that identifies as a top. That honest perspective is needed in this topic.
I do really feel like there is this notion that "tops are toxic," that is the mirror image of bottom shaming
I worship the ground that bottoms walk on
I was watching a gay romance and when i read the books it was based on, I was shocked how the characters were offended to be the "bottom" vs "top". Bullying someone over a position just sounds absurd to me.
Absurd yes but it happens far more often than not.
I believe the only people that would try to shame a bottom really are ashamed of themselves.
This was another great episode. I have to say, I truly have not been aware of bottom shaming (and I'm old!) As a top, I'm just the opposite: I treasure, respect and honor my bottoms and I realize that what they do is not feminine or masculine; it's just simply one half of the puzzle that makes intercourse take place. I feel horrible thinking that any bottom has had to endure any type of negative feedback for their choices. How absurd! I loved what Calan said about the fact that everyone should experience both roles before making a judgement on the other side. A top who has never bottomed has no idea what's involved - the prep, the feeling, the managing of pain (hopefully only initially) and so much more. I am glad that more straight men are exploring anal as well; I think it helps normalize the fact that it's pleasurable, and removes the associated taboos. I have certainly come across that type of man, and I always thank them for being so honest with themselves for allowing their natural curiosities to come to fruition; again, with no shame whatsoever.
2 other points that really resonated with me: 1) Bottoming is not always submissive - there are many masculine bottoms in particular who take ownership of their role, and 2) There are definite cultural differences as far as norms. The Middle East was mentioned on the call, and also in my own experience, just as an example, I have found that African Americans are generally expected to be tops due to some sort of societal-imposed role. Some of my most satisfying discoveries have involved meeting and conversing with Black men and giving them the space to be whatever they want to be vs. what society expects them to be.
According to your comment, “many masculine bottoms… take ownership…” Are there feminine people (bottoms, tops, women, men) who take ownership, or is that designation reserved only for those who are “masculine”?
It’s not a thing. Young lgbt people just love to over magnify non issues and throw words like toxic thing, internalized that
@@TimSimms7 He didn’t say that… and who cares if that’s what he meant? What a fragile community we’ve become smh.
@@cjthompson420 It’s a direct quote from a published comment. I’m afraid you are demonstrably incorrect.
The other two of you are more in line with my life experience, Bottom Shaming just isn’t really a thing in the Gay Community and even becoming less in the straight community.
So glad that Michael mentioned shaming around being "prude" /not wanting sex which is something men in the asexual spectrum experience quite often. That again reflects the nexus between performative masculinity, sexuality and power. "Intimacy" itself is normalized in problematic ways. And thanks to the three of you for breaking binaries and labels which is highly needed for our times!
Well said - thanks for sharing 👏🏼 You know, we had this idea for quite a long time and finally decided to do it because we saw the rampant stigmatization and sexual shaming as a whole. Surely there's more work to be done on this... stay tuned for more 🌟
@@WellismoCoaching looking forward :)
I seem to have a completely different view of the bottom position in that I feel (although I haven't actually bottomed, but I DO recognize that would be my true preference) that as a bottom, I hold super powers. I'm the ONLY way you're going to get your ultimate experience. YOU want ME. I have what YOU (think) you require in order to be fulfilled. I'm that piece of the puzzle that you NEED. I was in a LTR 32 years and we were actually both bottoms and BELIEVE ME (!!) we were 100% connected on ALL levels and shared immense love and respect for one another... EVERY SINGLE DAY of thirty two years. He'll be gone four years tomorrow. I miss the love and togetherness SO very much. Sex has so little to do with that.
Great perspective! Thanks for sharing it with us.
But this type of thinking is why the topic is “toxic.” I’m vers too and feel like I do all the work and it’s really disheartening to read something like this after someone just sort of stood there and laid there. Like God ….can I get a little appreciation
@@istvanpraha Yeah, but that's "sex". Love isn't like that. Sex IS work. You choose the role you play, then g for it. SWEAT when it counts most! (to you).
@@istvanprahathat’s assuming all bottoms are lazy. I obviously don’t have the slightest clue about your sex life, but in my experience when only one person is putting in all of the work (bottom or top) it’s usually because our hookup culture breeds a kind of emotionally detached and therefore passionless sex..a transaction just to get the rocks off.
Not that you have to be totally emotionally invested and ready for a relationship to have great sex, but the best sex always comes from an emotional place, it’s part of our human experience…partners who are both emotionally secure and open to sharing a human experience even for a hookup have awesome sex.
Our hookup culture prioritizes detached, emotionless and frankly dehumanizing way. Humans are not pieces of meat and sex should not be a transaction.
This is a great perspective. There is so much bottom shaming perpetuated by tops in particular (not all, but it’s prevalent enough to be a common theme) that seem to have disdain for bottoms and have such high standards for them (fem/masc energy, cleanliness, emotional limits like no kissing, dehumanizing shit like “no talking” and so much else) yet at the same time are actively sexually interested and attracted to and pursuing them to get their rocks off.
As always find the content here so meaningful. I completely relate to Matt’s comments about Performative Masculinity/ understanding ourselves as sexual beings etc. This represents my own truths
I agree that why would people would demand to know someone’s position. There is great vulnerability alongside strength to understand how shame works and how we apply this to ourselves.
I identify myself as a sub bottom. I was in verse relationship for a year trying to change my preferences. Now I understand I was suffering with that partner. Stop to criticize people because they dont want to practice more sex forms
We are glad you have found your authenticity and are choosing to honour it ❤️
You did not love him ?Want to be with him ?
I totally dislike the differentiation between top and bottom. I just makes gay dating so much more difficult. It reinforces stereotypes such as all twinks, all Asians are bottoms. All men share the same biology so if you ask me everybody is versatile. Nobody was born with a position. This division is so limiting. People should search for a partner they are attracted to without the need to ask for the sex position.
The first question is often, "Are you a top or a bottom", because I won't bother even getting to know you if you don't have the correct answer?
@@mitchellbarnow1709 if you want a fulfilling relationship you have to look for a matching personality not a sex position. Sexual attraction wears off but intimate friendship doesn’t.
You're not in your right mind. You think everyone likes stuff shoved up their ass because they're gay? Really?
@@sobakakustovsky3909 You are 100% correct! I have been with my husband since 1994!
@@mitchellbarnow1709 that's so encouraging! I'm 22 and most of my gay friends are single so I lost hope to find my man for myself.
This is such a wonderful and thoughtful conversation. Thank you so much for sharing. Look forward to hearing more conversations.
Thank you for your kind words! We're delighted you enjoyed the conversation. Stay tuned for more inspiring content!😍
Love this discussion thank you for this, it does start with addressing our ignorance ❤
I love bottoming if the guy isn't too big. And I have to be mentally and physically ready. In the bedroom, the bottom is actually in charge. That is very important. He decides when, where, how and if it happens. I've had encounters where I had to say 'no, that's not going in me', and still had a good time doing other stuff. Nothing beats a good flip for me though.
Exactly When you think about it the bottom or the submissive (I prefer this term) actually hold on the cards especially if you're going down on a guy. You could choose to stop giving him fellatio and then he would have blue balls. At the end of the day it's gay/queer sex being a top doesn't make you any less queer
This is the best channel for everyone! I have learned so much , feeling free from the old thoughts about sex.
Thank you! Please spread the word - and if you're not already in the community, come on over to our FB group: facebook.com/groups/gaymensbrotherhood
Hi. Apologies for the length. First, thank you. I agree with much of your video. Bottom shaming is misogynistic. One's sexual behavior should not be the same as one's identity. Bottom shaming is a form of sex shaming.
I write erotica and explore this topic often. (I confess my characters aren't always emotionally healthy. To be fair, characters need flaws.) Also, I often write from experience. I've been bottom shamed a lot - by married "straight" men, by religious men, and even by partners. And sadly I have to own that I gravitate towards it.
I grew up in a household where wanting sex was bad, so if I'm always the submissive partner and the dominant partner is, in some ways, not treating me like an equal, then I can shield myself from guilt. (I didn't do anything aggressive. I didn't show lust so it's "not my fault" and therefore my family shouldn't be disgusted.) Through these mental gymnastics, I can enjoy sex without responsibility or guilt, but there is still shame.
Your point about identity. I don't think I control that aspect. I have little identity racially or spiritually. I don't have a career that helps define me (few "real life" people know I'm an author) nor is there a particular city or region that helps me feel like I'm at home or part of a tribe. Almost my entire identity is I am bipolar, gay, and a bottom. I don't know how to change that. Maybe that would be okay if I didn't associate bottoming with being weak, dumb, or a failure. I suspect many men face this dilemma.
Calan mentioned animals for a second. I feel you missed a major subconscious source of bottom shaming. We SHOULD absolutely know better than animals. We're intellectual enough to recognize hurtful or illogical beliefs, words, and actions. But as you pointed out in your video about emotional health, we're not always about thought. A lot of it is gut feeling. And we can be subject to even more base animal instinct than just gut feelings. I'm not an anthropologist/psychologist/etc, but I'm almost certain that long before human beings had clear concepts of gay, straight, etc, there was already bottom shaming. Because it absolutely DOES exist in the animal kingdom. Example: Hippos. If a male hippo wants a territory belonging to another, they will fight until one is forced to surrender. As a show of dominance, the victor will mount the loser. I'm sure humans saw this. We know countless stories/fables/beliefs regularly come from observing animals and nature, so there you go. And there are other examples.
Also, I could expand on your mention of impregnation. I know. It makes no sense in gay sex, but from men who have said they needed to "mark" me as well as men who have said no one else was allowed to mark me, that there's some vestigial instinct. Male animals fight, sometimes kill each other, for the privilege of passing on their genes. The one who gets to penetrate and inseminate is the superior male specimen, the victor.
I know on a head level I need to love myself more, accept/own what I enjoy, attempt to overcome internalized guilt/shame, and have open conversations with potential partners. But I feel so much of this issue is not on a head level and not just for me.
Thanks so much for sharing your insights here with us. Indeed, it's quite a loaded topic and there's plenty to discuss on sexual shaming in general. Thanks for watching!
As a 52y/o blk guy, many guys just assume I'm a total hung dom top probably due to all the porn but when they find out that I'm truly versatile, it goes against their little preconceived stereotypes. Back in the 90's, nearly every guy I met was versatile and since then, most seem to be one or the other. World of gay sex has changed a lot.
First question at meeting. Top or bottom. If not compatible, walk on. Missing out on many possible good matches.
Crazy gay world.
60 years old, 40 years ago butch bottoms were more or less considered mythical. Joey Stefano eventually saved us.
@@oldasrocks9121 I'm even older! What I wanted to do depended on the person or persons I was with. I did not think it was something I had been programmed to want. I'm pretty sure I was born to be gay, but I do not think I was born to be a pitcher or a catcher. (I lived in San Francisco when I came out in 1969).
@@oldasrocks9121Who?
That's actually interesting to hear! I've always been curious (even since like early teenage years) about how sex has changed among gay men, but never had the chance to learn, because in my teens there was nobody gay in my family, among grown-up family friends or even in the media, absolutely no representation and no lead to go on.
Hell, for the longest time as a kid I thought I was the only gay boy! Clearly, I wasn't. It's just a manifestation of peer pressure to hide and lie about our true identity IF it doesn't fall into the accepted (stereotypical) niche.
Outstanding. I'm 69 and i learned much and respect all 3 of you. Brought back memories, much from the past 😊. Please do another update. Update. From Connecticut Connecticut !.thanks.
Thank you for your support! We're glad the episode resonated with you. Stay tuned for more updates! 😊🌟
How about all the bottom stop being so fragile and not care what people think about them!
Most aren't; they want a good pounding and they aren't afraid to say so. Hallelujah! 😍
Sometimes hard (no pun) to do.
Omg, this episode is SO enlightening to me on several levels. I would love to be on the show to tell how this conversation help me. Get Works Guys and Be Blessed!!!!❤
Thanks for being vulnerable guys. I am 78 and I learned a lot.
We’re glad you got value from it 😊
I have never felt that this topic has ever been an issue at least for me. Maybe I’ve been living under a rock of oblivion but I have always thought of it backwards. The bottom to me has my respect and admiration. I used to mostly only top but that was because I was scared of the pain. If anything I thought of myself as “the weak one,” if there was a weak one. I’m now versatile 50/50 because not only does it feel really good, it makes things fair in my mind. That’s just my feelings.
Likewise. I admire the bottom. I started out top, but noticed the bottom having such a grand time, i got jealous
This is literally a non issue
Love it, love it, LOVE IT!
I found this trialog (if I may use the term) really intriguing, a discussion that could go on for weeks without a break, the mention of the Universal Mind especially so. But for now, my 'two cents' refers to a generality I found in a healthy BDSM relationship: it's the sub/bottom who actually controls the action. I agree that we as a species don't handle the sexual dynamic very well. Our social construct on the subject of sex seems that of the typical 15-year-old: at once fascinated and embarrassed, yet it's one of the most profound experiences we share. Now we're at a crossroad, with the introduction of gender fluidity and the concept of sexuality on a spectrum.
Hats off to you gents! We should have been having these discussions decades ago!! Please keep it going!
Thank you for your enthusiastic response! It's truly fascinating how discussions like these shed light on complex dynamics. Your insight into the power dynamics and the evolving landscape of sexuality is thought-provoking. Let's indeed keep the dialogue flowing and embrace the diversity of human experiences and expressions.😍
Hi, first time watching any of your vids.
It was giving me a feeling of a straw man arguement, given that there was the indication early in the video that there are so many bottoms out there (in the city,) however I'm glad that you all touched on some of the topics you did. I was wondering when bottom shaming used as a method of competition between so many other bottoms would come up, and sad it didn't. This discussion could have given more insight into transorming the community if that topic would have been broached. I *did* find Michael's insight into bottom shaming as a substitute for slut shaming super legitimate. So much more to say but this will do for now. Thank you for the vid.
I don't think I've ever experienced shaming for it. It affects who we can be together with sexually, I find. There can be physical attraction that doesn't take a relationship far if both are bottoms. That's my experience. I've only found myself gravitating to tops, and they don't shame bottoms because it's what they want.
I would love to hear a discussion about “side shaming.” (FYI - a side is a gay man that doesn’t have anal sex). That seems to be more of a problem these days in my experience. Thanks.
I usually top, but not always; I think it’s because I so much enjoy earning my way in.
When I was in my late teens to early thirties, I was ashamed of being a top. In my teens and twenties I thought "I'm young, yeah I'm tall but I'm not masc enough to be a top." all my friends were bottoms and they assumed I was a bottom. Thanks to friends and other gay men I thought tops were assholes. I did not want to be an asshole who reminded me of bullies. In my early thirties I convinced myself I was vers, but my version of vers was oral only. I stopped topping and trying to force myself to bottom... I only did oral.
Then in my mid thirties, and it took way to long. Why did it take so long? I accepted and gave myself permission to be a top. I let go of a bunch of bull crap in my head. I always wondered, are there other tops that were ashamed of being a top? Probably yes.
28:00 Why are dom/sub dynamics so enmeshed with top/bottom roles?
I don't want my romantic life to be a live-action-role-play of a porn plot.
Amen 🙏
Michael, you are the first person I have heard finally say out loud that the sexual and the spiritual are symbiotic. I have always experienced this. My spiritual path *drives* my libido! Any ups and downs in my spiritual journey affect my sex life.
I completely agree! I think that's more common but maybe we're just not talking about it as much! Thanks ENZO for all your comments and observations on these episodes😀
I think this is a bit exaggerated personally. The only ones “shaming” are just other mean bottoms so it’s hard to take seriously anyway.
I agree
I would not necessarily say "mean" bottoms per se. It's just in general, in my subjective experience, there are more bottoms than tops in gay community, so the competition for bottoms is rather fierce. So "bottom shaming" is purely an expression of internal frustration between bottoms themselves.
To give an example. I went out with one of my bottom gay friends recently, and he was trying to get laid. Each time he would get attracted to someone and start flirting, later only figuring out that the object of his attention is only bottom in bed, he would get totally frustrated and say something like: what a waste, this guy, he is a f*cking bottom. But my point was to him - so are you, my dear! That other guy is probably is just as frustrated as you that you are bottom only too. So, it is kind of a mutual bottom shaming process. It's like a beatch (sic.) fight to get laid. It's a shame though! I think bottom shaming is in essence a phenomenon found in the gay scene which is very much sex oriented. In fact, best friends for a bottom are other bottoms. You have much in common to discuss. So why shame each other and not embrace each other? Because primary interest in the circumstance is sex, not friendship. Another point is that we judge by looks in any case. A beautiful bottom is much less bottom shamed than an average looking feminine middle aged one. It's really a tough life for an older not very good looking bottoms. For gorgeous ones it is a rather easy and enjoyable journey. If you are ugly, you need to be loaded with money to make any chance to get laid. In my humble opinion, of course.
@@seeer1978 bottom catfights are hilarious, it's like watching RPDR. 😂
Yes and they won’t date each other 😂 so weird
Love this convo! Thank you!!
Just be yourself and don't worry about it ! ❤😊
I was pure top when I was younger then I turn 30 and I started experimenting now I enjoy btmng.. tbh I felt immense pleasure in my GSpot btmng. but I agree that in our community btm is not just sexual position but sometimes they view it as a stereotypical character of a very feminine gay. Which isn't always true. I even dated guys and they would say I'm still top just because I have more masc characteristics.. and I hope most of us would be more awaken and more understanding and don't be rigid in always putting people in a box.
Thanks for sharing and I can fully resonate with your share 👌🏼
Haha I was the opposite! I’m from nyc and everyone wanted to be a bottom so I fought in the race to the bottom for the burliest top. And the fantasy was always ten times better than the reality. Then one day I saw a younger guy that looked like a young Chris Pine and I threw him against the wall and he loved it and I loved it….
Great discussion by the way...I'm a sociologist...I like how you relate these gay issues to issues of the patriarch and racism. The black problem with bottoming is very much tied to the indignities of slavery.
Top, Bottom. What does it matter if you are both enjoying yourselves?
where can we post some private issues and concerns for advice but not wanting to air it on RUclips?
Feel free to email us at info@gaymensbrotherhood.com
I'm so confused by hearing your opinions and experience stories. Although I DO BELIEVE you guys ROCK for being so out in the open about your journey, there are a few points that need addressing. Like Education and awareness may help us feel differently about our roles in bed, but is that also triggering? Shame creates a hidden channel through which valid ways of experiencing pleasure become even more exciting by passing through that channel. I'm overwhelmingly ashamed of my sexual existence, and only now I get how I need to work on that. I don't know how else I can show my appreciation, I only thank you from the bottom of my heart for keeping up doing this and not giving up on us as the community.
Últimamente he estado viendo tu discusión. Gracias Matt por expresar tu punto de vista feminista. Pensé que no sólo era gay sino también femenina. Mi viejo era sargento instructor en la USAF.
I'm a bottom and I don't think it has anything to do with patriarchy. Masculinity is very attractive and coupled with being a top is very attractive. That is what it is all about.
Thanks for sharing your perspective! It's essential to recognize and celebrate the diversity of preferences within the LGBTQ+ community. 🌈😊
Love This !
Good topic and discussion. Thank you. I would plan to engage more but I have a difficult time with excessive upspeak. It drives me nuts.
I keep butt spotless clean😅 everyday and I'm not sexually active, but if you stay ready you don't have to get ready. 😂❤❤❤ Love the channel keep making videos ❤
As top in Toronto I’d say there are very little bottoms, mostly tops , if you go to any bathhouse there are very little men bottom so here you go another perspective
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It's interesting to hear the diversity of experiences within different communities. 🏙🌈
I liked a lot of the views from the guys. In my view, because there are more gay men exploring versatility it is creating a majority. In conversations, my take always has been that the logic of pursuing versatility is a need to break away from heteronormative views as well as supporting the notion that if I am a gay man I want to experience ALL pleasure possible with another man. However, because there are varying degrees of psychological experiences at play, it is unwise to assume that one is
attached to heteronormative positions or that they are not truly gay because of a lack of desire towards versatile sex. Some people have pushed themselves to be versatile (like myself) and have not yet felt the same way that those enlightened by versatility have. Experiences do vary so, shame is in the mind of the beholder. The collective and often disguised jargon used within everyday life doesn’t help especially when it echoes loudest from the corners of those who are happy in their versatility as it has become authentic to them. When there is a majority, by default suffering is created because now something is out of trend and to be honest, I don’t believe that sexual self awareness should be polarized in that way. But, society does with what society is given. I’m happy for those who have been seemingly “more liberated” because assimilating to versatility yielded positive results.
8:55 “…and straight people are starting to realise it though..”
Yeah, 100%. There’s a song that’s very popular on TikTok at the moment, and one of the lyrics are “I’ll hit it from the back just so you don’t get attached.”
Absolutely! It's interesting to see how mainstream media is reflecting evolving perspectives. The lyric you mentioned definitely captures a modern sentiment about relationships. Thank you for sharing!😍
Moral of the story... know you're gay and bottoms up!
Thanks for lifting me above the old notion of top n bottom. I am a gay bodybuilder and yet with my depression I am always the bottom. I am done with that craziness.
Paxil guarantees you'll be a bottom.
Im 6'5 and often mistaken for a top lol
I am 99% bottom. People have been bothered by my lack of topping bcuz im so tall. As if being tall and a top are synonymous. I just prefer being the receiver...😊
We love that you are owning who you are and what you want ❤️
@src3360
My very first experience was as a Bottom, as I imagine it is/was for 99.9% of the folks here. But like you, being tall and somewhat muscular quickly got me "pigeonholed" as a Top. I have had a VERY limited experience as a Bottom and know that with a thoughtful and respectful partner I not only might enjoy it but might be able to switch. The idea/dream of a truly BUTCH Top educating me to be his idea of a Bottom...I know will never happen. It is the stuff many of my fantasies are made from.
Same for being a man of color and hung. Its like you’re not allowed to want to bottom. And phrases like “Such a waste…”.
Are you husky as well?
@@ronniebutlerjrHi, how are you doing?
I felt and still feel some embarrassment for being a fem bottom who people think I'm masculine but inside I want to be Daddy's princess and wanting a masculine man to be my romantic daddy
Thát is Hot 🥵.
Most gay men want that but are fem and single and rather then date another fem they stay single and mess around with men who are looking for dl action. Sad.
After reading the comments first (sorry about that), I told myself that Bottom shaming is stupid. Whether you are Top or Bottom you are 1/2 of the pleasure that will be derived from your time together. Then I realized that while I have never Bottom shamed, I have made somewhat subtle "gestures" that I didn't think someone was a decent candidate to be my Bottom. Dismissing someone without giving them a true chance to make an impression is foolish. Dismissing them because you THINK they don't fit your preconceived ideas is hateful. I hope that I never do that, ever.
What’s a great comment. More people can learn from your open display of empathy and humility
What is your bottom?
This has been an incredible podcast for me! Thank you!
We’re glad you found value in it 😁
Total Top and loving it🙂
Interesting, but bottomshaming/male sexual dominance has existed throughout history in Greece, Rome, even the Viking Era as well as across cultures, e.g. Muslim culture , Chinese & Japanese culture, etc. I don't believe this is really about "suppressing the feminine" as much as it is about "promoting the masculine", which is tied into notions of "independence", "growth", "prosperity".
I don't like labels and I've bottomed throughout my life, but the climax from topping is by far much more intense and cathartic. I love topping any chance I get.
As a gay bottom I find it difficult to make a connection due to the more bottoms than tops scale. I've tried verse but it doesn't work for me so now I'm stuck being single and alone. Lonely in Michigan.
No god did not make u to play the role of a woman it was not design to be inserted in you bottom an act of corruption
@@alanaban1840😆
Without bottoms there would be no tops.
But with too many bottoms there wouldn't hardly be any tops either..lol
Absolutely rubbish !!! How toxic
Most interesting discussion, thank you. - Small observation: You three wear beards. Body hair has always been considered an attribute of virility - so much so that in Turkey, in Istanbul in particular, there are beard implant clinics. Yet these considerations are the fact of Western anthropologists. Half of male humans have no body hair, from Southeast Asians to men in South America and Africa.
I hate that term “no homo bro” the last time someone said that to me I said yes homo bro.
Thank You! Great Presentation! :)
A man who won't penetrate his partners, straight people (not just men) will definitely think less of, that's like the main thing a man is supposed to be for, and if you ain't good for that, it's like what are you even here for? Among gay men it's an entirely different matter, it's a matter of competing for scarce resources, bottom shaming someone is a way of saying that their value on the market is below zero, which by contrast means you're some kind of Chad if you're a top or at least versatile, and you can brag about it, big time.
really enjoyed your podcast about this subject,but just to address the elephant in the room..i'm a top and i believe we are not represented in the best light.The moment we experience isn't about top dom its about you and how we make you feel, many tops are aware and support this reasoning.
we do respect and appreciate the connection and moment we are in.
I think it’s hard to speak for a whole group of people. Some tops might be as you are and some may not. Same for bottoms and all others groups out there. But I do appreciate you being more considerate 👍🏼 - Matt
After the sex...bottom or top...we need many more programs about relationship and specially long term. Long or short, relationships seem to be the most important part of ones journey. It seems that we are still hung up on the sex part. Important, however, to have fullfilling relationships and how to deal with all the issues, seems very important. How to deal with with two people and all their issues and make their relationship successfull should be part of our goal. Sex, financial, ficycal, family, goals, living conditions. "in sichness and in health". Two people and especially two gay people are meeting and in many cases with lots of issues because of our society, how to build great friendships seems very important, and sex is just part of that.
In my country I don't see much bottom shaming.
That's great to hear! Positive and inclusive attitudes contribute to a healthier community. 🌈👍
There is nothing wrong with defining yourself (sexually) as a total top or bottom. We need to stop shaming those who identify that way. There is nothing wrong with seeking out someone who complements you sexually for a relationship either. None of us have the right to tell each other what to do or how to be sexually. There ARE total tops and bottoms out there. Have been for a lonnnng time. And sometimes its just how you're wired. Just the way it is.
the question "are you top or bottom" was originally not contemplated, everything was regulated by our body waves, after years of close encounters i think that the best way to have sex is to make Love Kundalini way. My book The American dream of a gay european guy attests that
The only thing I think was missing is the "cleanliness factor" involved with anal sex, which at a visceral level probably plays an important role with bottom shaming. The episode was all around very good, however, so thanks!
True. Understanding douching and 12 hour fasting is a really important step sone baby gays don't always get. Getting railed creates a vacuum in the anus and we all know how it can sometimes end. You know what cracks me up? Porn depicting spit as a successful lubricant. Gurl.
Well, shit happens. That's why soap and water were invented. Anyone unwilling to deal with that reality is someone that would never be able to take care of an infant. It comes down to a maturity issue.
Way over thinking 🤔- 57 and the best part of being gay in my day was that all rules were gone Love ❤️ is Love w/ out all the technical talk
I've dealt with it my whole life. The shaming. We are a group of highly talented men, who can be terribly viscious to each other in this matter of feminine versus masculine. Time for it to stop! My shame and the rise of Aids without a cocktail, cost me a good deal of my youth. No victim, survivor! Onward. Sadly, I've had Gay men really be awful and nasty about it, which actually has made me wary of getting involved with men. Like I'm less then, as you've mentioned. I love men's bodies totally! Closet cases are also part of the equation. Idealizing straight men is a huge issue. Always has been. Idealizing male physical perfection is also a problem. In many ways we have been, and Are, an over over sexualuzed culture. There's a lot of sex addiction in our world. D...ck and a...s are everything. *Is it over compensation? How about romantic feelings?, real intimacy. Tik Tok, RUclips, all of it has heightened the whole thing. Good you're that you're opening this dialogue. I'm glad this is being revealed. Thank you for opening this up! Some of us are still finding our way , not being 26 or 35 in this era of sexual fluidity. I'm impressed with your candor and honesty. EN
Really? Your whole life by who and how? And who is worshiping straight guys especially in the woke days of side eyeing anything “heteronormative” this seems like your own struggle not all gay folks
Perhaps this has been said. Back in the 80s, I read an article in a porn mag. The writer said that a bottom had tremendous power in a relationship because he gives consent. This gave me a bias toward bottoms and away from tops, which is the opposite of bottom shaming. Actually I prefer to accept that tops have power too. Each person has a self to honor in sexual encounters and relationships.
Blessings
Great discussion. Wish the Christian Brothers taught us this in school. I can't imagine why they didn't.
Is bottom hard and does it hurt . and it want to experiment it but how do if start
Start with SMALL dildos plenty of Lube also anal plugs never forget douching . Also prostate stimulates are good . When you do meet a top make sure he's a pro and knows what he's doing . Relaxation of rectum is a must .. Go forth my friend and enjoy 😊❤
Are you being "dominated" if you're bottoming? 💭 Just wondering if that's one of the reasons why we may think there's shame in it?
Thank you. I love the idea of not identifying with labels.
My take on this is,we've become a society too hung up on shaming others for their likes,and as I clearly put it,their are many men who give dick to other men stay in their mindset that they aren't gay because they are the givers and not receivers,and that's a whole lotta bull because being a giver or receiver doesn't define who u are as a person,sex is about exploring your desires and likes,even to this day we still haven't come out of the taboos of sexual desires,the ignorance that is still taught about sex needs to be changed in order for us to stop looking down on those who are just enjoying their best life.
This whole concept of "sexual compatibility" (i.e. top, bottom etc.) is unhealthy...people should not be seen as objects of sexual desire only....that's why you see "shaming" and people engaging in all types of self-destructive behaviours. Thus "love" is thrown out of the window and no wonder such relationships don't work very long, esp if people are looking only to have sexual intercourse through Grindr. The G community itself "shames" and hurts its fellow members unfortunately from time to time.
For that matter, with regards to "bottom shaming" or whatever terms are used, the question is why is there a need to have anal intercourse in the first place? Gay relationships are different from straight ones and in the case of latter, there's a need for procreation and thus penetration...in the case of former, there's no such need and so it doesn't make sense even from a logical or a scientific POV. Anal intercourse is harmful in general and very risky sexual behaviour (even though it might feel good for some)..the thing is one doesn't need to engage in anal intercourse to fulfill one's sexual needs....there are other ways....it's a false perception that has been promoted and normalized by LGTV leaders over the past 50 years and that's why people in G community who are referred to as "sides" are shamed as well.
The G community talks about "love" but everywhere (in media, public, movies, TV shows, series) G relationships are always shown in the form of anal intercourse, giving a subliminal message in the process that G relationships are all about anal intercourse at the end of the day.
Because people want to? And how is that not involved with love for some? Weird how everyone screams sex positive, don’t shame anyone for hooking up with 50 randos for twitter… but also they’re just so ashamed. Stop trying to change everyone’s preferences and find someone compatible sheesh lmao
I have a weird personal take on this. I would never bottom shame anyone, that's dumb & also I'd never get a date again. So I top but I have low sex drive & I get the impression from the bottoms I've met that they have very high sex drives & are more outgoing sexually. & that brings up my own insecurities about not being like other guys, not having as many partners, & in dating am I going to live up to this dude's other experiences; it's actually gotten quite neurotic for me with certain people who've given me waaay too much information about their pasts, which I really did not ask for. So maybe at points I've bottom shamed in my mind with specific people, but it came from my own personal insecurities not from equating someone with being feminine. Plus I don't equate bottoming with being feminine to begin with. I date bears/cubs so what you do in bed doesn't make you seem any less masculine to me. Sorry that rambled a bit, hope there was a clear-ish point in there somewhere.
I really don't agree that bottoms are the masses. I think that's a perception or myth. There are just as many tops. Why wouldn't there be? Or people that at least prefer to top or mostly top... maybe there's slightly more that prefer bottoming but not a complete imbalance.
30:36 Basically what you said there is a bottom shaming because what if someone's just a bottom and they're happy with it, they don't wanna be a versatile or a top, they don't wanna explore other options in sex, what's wrong with bottoms wanting to have sex with tops only? I don't get it.
If you are not versatile then you are simply being selfish.
See I have a different take on this. Because when you go to any gay dating site literally everyone seems to be a bottom and can't find tops barely. And it's the other bottoms who are doing the shaming. Because they want more tops. So they are basically shaming others like themselves.
There is "top" shaming among our community also, especially from guys who insist that everyone should be "versatile." Considering how so many of us came out of the closet in order to be able to finally be able to express ourselves sexually, it's still amazing to me how much discrimination there continues to be over sexual preferences within many members of our own group.
Yep! So true! Also, think of all the bottoms who say they prefer a HUNG top so any tops that are averaged seem to be ignored or looked down on.
A really good beginning was made here, though I do think you overemphasized the anti-woman angle in a way typical of treating all homophobia as a subset of misogyny, which is a huge political and social dead end. If you are going to make the case that patriarchy is no good, that should include why matriarchy is no better.
Looking forward to the next part.
Matriarchies have been studied actually, and shown to be more egalitarian, peaceful and harmonious with nature. Not surprising, look at the animal kingdom: male-domination means more violence and destruction.
@@noelliebtsie Matriarchy would be no good for gays; we'd be the first people exterminated. Too many people just love to parrot that the female side of anything is always superiour to the male side without realizing how catastrophic taking such a line is for us.
If it is true that there are so many more bottoms as you suggest, is it really they are worshipping tops, or rather they know this is the type of man I'm looking for? Also, I would suggest maybe people like hanging around people like them and without thinking it they self-group with others who are like them? It's no different than girls sitting around talking about boys.
I am 51 years old and out since I was 29 and I have never heard of another gay men engage in this.🤔🤔🤔
I wish they had pointed out that it comes more from outside, though this discussion made a good start. The people I've seen most inclined to bottom-shame are bi male tops.
Me neither. I'm a 56 year old bottom out since 18...no bottom shaming ever. I don't get it. Or we're from a different generation and don't over-think it.
This isn’t a thing. The young generation has equality and it’s too boring for them so they’re making up all types of mess smh
@@cjthompson420 this! 💯
I’m so lucky my first sex experience I went full in every aspect….everything…. we did everything to each other…except make love…, it was pure lust, no shame, guilty trip…, it open my mind, chooses, and possibilities… it may sound silly or korny but sometimes it feel like I got some superpowers, I don’t give it a dammed what other think about me… I’m not perfect
I doubt if a feminine bottom would prefer a feminine top.
If you're really Hot, you can do BOTH !
We do respect your opinion. Being hot doesn't invalidate anyone's preferences or experiences. Bottom shaming perpetuates harmful stereotypes and diminishes the diversity within the 🌈community. Let's embrace and respect each other's choices without judgment.✌❤
It’s everywhere and keeps being perpetuated but they couldn’t give any examples other than “uhh society says…” which isnt a thing. Half the dudes got an OF showing you how “shameful” they are with everybody any everybody and you better not suggest it’s unhealthy or unsafe or you’re perpetuating stigma? 🙄 what the “community” doesn’t have a lot of is accountability or healthy ways of dealing with rejection if we’re being honest.
I am more bottom and not so top.But the last time i am thinking about top.Would liké to do thé expérience in a love relation.
This was so apt, accurate. Very informative and very blatant and unapologetically true.
Thank you for your feedback!🙌
I've never come across it but maybe it's a US thing. Why would gays bottom shame? It must be tops doing it if at all and without bottoms tops would be screwed for want of a better adjective 🙂🤷♂
I'm ONLY approaching 57 however came-out to a scene of camp effete queens who referred to each other as she/her/ using names like MsVagina Wade, Ms JoanCrawford, Ms Lucille Ball & SHUDDERED - NO! I needn't have feared - we DONT turn into that uktracampsickstereotype so beloved by TV companies
"~Who was the woman & who was the man¿~" was once asked of me at a Sexual Heath Clinic in the 80s
what a great community i have found and joined
5:52, ya, idolizing is no good.
Personally, I’ve never understood the whole illogical reasoning behind bottom shaming. On the other hand we have people talk about either “toxic tops“ or how there aren’t enough tops. It’s absolutely stupid, but it just goes to show how we in the gay community are not much different from the rest of the world, in terms of some of our flawed thinking.
Oh, and that whole “not enough tops” foolishness, is NOT just in Toronto. Lol
It’s in San Diego (where I live) as well, and I’m inclined to believe that it’s COMMUNITY-WIDE.
I am from NYC and I think it’s simply that many of the bottoms here are super narcissistic and bitchy and rude and the attitude is not worth it compared to the way they look and are. Many have no self reflection. Like, you look like the crypt keeper but act like you’re super hot and I should want to bang you
So many of us “bottom shaming” are talking about that unfortunately popular type and not all bottoms
There's far more bottoms than tops everywhere, even in rural areas. It's awesome for tops, but not so much for all the bottoms. 😂
OMG, Matt! EXACTLY. STOP GIVING AWAY YOUR POWER!!!!!!!!! YOU get to bring your own energy to each situation.. Sounds like you've grown immensely aver time. You're like THERE, dude!!! You are incredibly awesome (and intensely beautiful, BTW!).
Thanks for this reflection James. I appreciate it 🙏☺️