Biggest story misconceptions in Final Fantasy: The real villains of FF7, FF12 & FF13? *spoilers*
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- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2024
- It's no fresh news that the Japanese know how to craft a crazy RPG story or two. Final fantasy is no difference and to this day, huge misconceptions exist even on who the main villain is. In celebration of 30th / 20th anniversary FFVII remake hype, I will do my best to see the dynamic of Sephiroth and Jenova explained. For FFXII zodiac age remaster hype I will cover wether Vayne could be the hero of the plot and Ashe the villain. Then rounding out with FFXIII Fal'cie, L'cie and the mad lore that is fabula nova crystallis.
Spoilers for the ost soundtrack, gameplay, cutscene, cinematics and ending of all 3 games. Enjoy!
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Hojo is the main villain of 7 he's the true cause of everyone's misfortune
In some way you might be more right then you think ;>
But to be honest FF 7 has many villains anyway, who is more and who is less is not that important I think.
FF7 is more a story about corruption by taking things from others for their own gain/ideas. FF12 its story is just like how we live. Everyone tries to do good for their own people for the sake of others, and that's why I love FF12. FF13... nah the story was good but after XIII-2 it was rubbish so I didn't finish FF13-3. Actually I never finished the 13 saga because it's not my type of game.
Chee Rpgg It could also be said that FF7 is a story about the dangers of acting on shoddy research. Jenovah deceived the Shinra scientists, making them think she was an Ancient. they went off that incorrect data and used her cells to make human weapons. Hojo, the total bastard that he is, doesn't tell his own son about the truth of his mother. Sephiroth begins to question his humanity, stumbles on the faulty research, is driven mad by it and commits atrocities as a result. All his life, Sephiroth was led astray by lies. He's truly a tragic and pitiable character.
I never picked up on that theme in the story when I was young and first playing the game, but now that I'm older and replaying the game, it really jumped out at me because of similar things happening irl.
Well fun part is .... in Original game, Hojo is on control of many things, maybe even Presiden Shinra. You see JENOVA project was basicly ment to produce a supersoldiers. But not by making superhumans, enchancments were done with MAKO not JENOVA cells. JENOVA cells was implented to CONTROL them, and only 1st Class SOLDIERS had JENOVA cells implented. Whole program was to select strongest and most deadly of them and took full control over them. But all that was changed in Crisis Core, since Zack was alwayas mambling about some honor or something. Honor of a death squad under a evil corp? Eh ok?
But we know that Compilation games are crap anyway and dont stick too much to anything.
Ofc Hojo is based on mad scientists like Eduard Wirths .
Hojo is basically Dr. Frankenstein
13 had such a detailed back story but none of it was communicated during the game, you get to the end and have no idea who you are fighting or why really. Square always come up with interestring worlds and stories but can never communicate them
Definitely had the biggest clusterfuck of a story and it really dragged the game down for me
I was willing to look past the (pretty boring, imo) combat system but the story was all over the fucking place and because neither aspect of the game felt very good I've never been able to finish any of the 13 series.
@@PiPArtemis cluster fuck did you even understand the storry or it connection to the fnc
I'd say only XII, the XIII trilogy and XV were like that. The rest of the series was very well explored.
XIII was the nail in the coffin for the FF series.
Ff12 is one of my favorite stories in video games or any media because it operates in the moral gray area. So many say its a Star Wars like story and in a way it is but FF12 isn't about Light vs Dark its Gray vs Gray!
Matsuno is a master of this as this is also the case in Final Fantasy Tactics!
Basch Lives I love FF12 and thought the story was good. But you can tell that the story just kinda stops towards late game and is very rushed.
Good point.
I'm going to ask for your help understanding some things then since you love FFXII so much. Backstory: my friend is awesome and as a gift for being a groomsman in his wedding gave me some video games back in 2011. One of them was FFXII. I played through it, and did everything except Yiazmat and Zodiark, but I was unimpressed with some characters' motivations. At the time (and I have not replayed it since), I wrote things like this:
"So Cid doesn't like history to be guided by occurians. Venat likes to shit and giggle and help him out because the other occurians never let him play their reindeer games? Or something? Vayne just wants to smash stuff and feel good about himself? If any of these people were believable characters I might have cared more. None of them really have a decent motivation or any kind of redeeming qualities. Cid comes the closest, but nobody ever explains the why or the what-gives behind his opinion on the occurians and why humans have to be liberated from divine shackles. I can understand the "we're not puppets" business, but it's implemented poorly here. For a better example of how that plot can be done well, check out Valkyrie Profile 2 and pay attention to Brahms.
Dear Ashe--please do this for us. Why? Wouldn't you like to know!? But we're not telling.
Dear occurians--no. I will do almost exactly the same as my current opponent and give you the finger. Then I will give him the finger. Then what happens? Shit if I know.
At the end of this game, Dalmasca is free again and on peaceful terms with the Archadian empire. But what became of all the occurian business they introduced into the plot? Only the occurians themselves know, 'cause we sure don't. What significance has the sundering of the sun cryst? Is anything metaphysical explained? No. Even Venat didn't explain to Vayne what was going on, just BOOM! All of a sudden he possesses him and you have a last boss.
Cid was hoping to accomplish what, exactly?
Venat was hoping to accomplish what, exactly?
Vayne was hoping to accomplish what, exactly?
What was the point to all of those plot elements if there was to be no resolution? And I knew by the time I was done at Pharos there wasn't going to be a resolution, but I saw it through anyway. This game didn't end, they just ran out of budget.
These villains suck. Even Dracula has a REASON he hates god. (and on that note, I'd be pretty upset if he killed my wife unfairly too.) If you're going to have a villain like Cid who hates god, either tell us why or expect us to lump him in with suburban emo kids."
That's boring and not worth my time, and I was really asking Basch Lives and not you.
I'm Basch fon Ronsenburg of Dalmasca!
That is ingraved in my mine from that one quest xD
You know I love the Final Fantasy fanbase at times, but I also hate it at times.
The amount of people I see/read complaining about lack of gameplay in one game and lack of story in another, and yet no one seems to appreciate the positives of the games. After FF12, Square had mixed receptions to their new Battle system, and after a wait wanted to return to what made Final Fantasy lovable at its core - what made FFVII so great - an atb turn based combat system and a game story DRIVEN. Then after release of the FF13 trilogy (all probably pre-planned in very early stages), a majority of people goes and hates on Squares' attempt to create a complex interesting universe to explore, saying "the gameplay is so boring" , and "there's too many cutscenes and too many soppy (real) emotions with the characters" and "I don't understand it cause it doesn't tell me everything I need to know about the universe at the beginning of the game". THEN Square sees this, and Tabata decided the people's opinions were important to creating a great final fantasy game.
So he proceeds to create FF15 (in the time allotted) which is Gameplay driven, open world driven, full of places to explore and giving the player full control, things that lacked in FF13 and things people complained about HEAVILY in FF13. They made a slightly less complicated story, and in the end less story cutscenes, with much less hidden lore behind the game than in 13 (especially with the additional content like kingsglaive) - all of which was squares attempt to create context for a still essential-to-the-franchise fantastical world and help people understand the game they've created, which they've tailored to the modern audience through everyone's comments and feedback.
Then of course, what do FF fans do? Complain. "There's not enough story" well you hated that about 13. "Why do I have to watch a movie and an anime" well you wanted more context with 13, and they managed to pull as much as they could together in the time they had for you, and still provided exterior context after the fact. "The gameplay isn't like final fantasy at all, and the fetch quests suck" well you wanted a more explorable and immersive world than 13 had, and you thought the 13 gameplay was stale, boring and un-engaging.
All I wish for would be for the majority of fans to understand and appreciate the separate games for their qualities instead of what they lack, as it seems that no matter what Square do, and whoever directs the game, they will never make a perfect game, and everyone will always latch onto the what the FF in question lacks instead of the bountiful qualities that make it a great game, which a lot of people just ignore. Sorry for the rant, and thanks to anyone who gave this comment the time of day to read :) great video as always Pez
MrKalleen Not 'everyone' otherwise that'd include yourself, and Pez, and all the others who like XIII. What you're really saying is that literally everybody should like every game that they buy, or if they don't they should shut up about it and only talk about it's flaws. I'm sure you never complain when you buy something and it turns out you don't like it. Never seen a movie, tv show, book, game and said it's not good?
I liked FF12 and every other FF before it but 13 (even though the hidden lore is interesting) the game as a whole is lacking the adventure feel that I like in RPG games. But don't underestimate FF12 in hidden lore and the lore about the world because FF12's world is the same one as in FF TACTICS series and revenant wings which makes it a very big story as a whole.
Nah I liked the FF12 style more, it was more true to the original FF's and the battle system was more fun to experiment with.
MrKalleen i want good Story and Gameplay. So is logical that 13 and 15 not the great games which they could be. But i like FF 13 and 15.
And by FF15 i missed Noctis xStella fight and more dark elements from Numora. But i not say FF 15 is bad. I only say it was designed in beginning to be the best( dark setting/Story and Shakespeare elements) This is my point of criticism.
And FF 13 is ok and for me only first Game i missed mini games. But the trilogy was enjoyable:)
In Final Fantasy 12 i like the combat system so hart, many tactics ( item like Accessories,shield can be changing in battle) and gambit programming for auto tactics in long battle is cool.
So in the end i like all 3 last FF : 12,13,15 and for me they are real FF like other FF too.
My favorite FF is : Final Fantasy 9 and second 8. Final Fantasy 7 is only of 3th best with FF 6 together ^^
Lg from Germany
@ff7soldierff7 I like FF12 as well, and I don't disagree with you, and I never bashed FF12 - all I was saying is that all the Final Fantasy games are flawed in some way, and instead on focusing on those flaws as fans we should be focusing on what makes the games great. And unfortunately this has only become apparent with the new titles such as the 13 trilogy and 15 which is why I mentioned them.
Pez? I LOVE YOU for doing more 13 stuff!
I know 15 is more relevant and will bring in more views and all that good stuff.
But it makes me really happy and I love that a big FF personality is giving 13 the credit it deserves instead of just blind hate of "WAHHHH it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10!" "It's not a REAL FF" etc etc.
You need to do more 13 stuff, us fans are out there!
I would argue that Hojo is 7's true villain, though not the antagonist from a purely narrative standpoint.
Too legit. Everything is his fault.
You talk about FF XII like you've never played it before.
1. Ashe determines on her own accord, by defying her love Rasler, that she must destroy the Cryst in order to destroy any power that great, which could possibly enslave man. a power that Vayne himself wanted, in order to... you know ENSLAVE MAN. Reddas doing it was necessary because A) He alone had the physical strength to do it. and B) it serves as Ashe's key shift, rather than take on the world/empire alone, in order to rule alone, she had to rely on people that she otherwise would never have trusted under any other circumstances. Balthier - Sky Pirate and son of Archadia. Vaan - a thief who stole her prized heirloom. and Basch - The man she believes betrayed her kingdom and killed her father. (As an aside, Reddas is all 3 of those things. A Sky Pirate son of Archadia, who stole a royal heirloom in order to kill a king/kingdom)
Ashe was never going to rule, or be a worthy monarch until she learned to cast off vengeance, and trust again. that's her whole arc as a character.
2. Vayne kills his father, (and brothers) defies the justice system put in place, and seeks to hoard and weaponize what is essentially Ivalices equivalent to Nuclear Weaponry, so that he can attack another empire (Rozarria) and attempt to take them over as well. Forget about the "history back in the hands of man" bit for half a second, and see that this is war mongering, in order to accumulate as much power as possible.
as for the hands of man thing, Vayne recognizes that the only thing capable of completely stopping him, is if the Occuria assign someone the weapon necessary to create nethicite that can be used against him. He wants the Occuria gone, and for history to be "back in the hands of man", so that he will be unstoppable, and rule as a new Dynast-King. He didn't want history in the "hands" of man, he wanted it in the "hand" of man. his hand alone. He is a more political and boring Kefka, he wanted to be God.
Also, suggesting that an "Empire" has elected officials makes no sense
I'd be fine if you said that Venat, is the real villain, or even to say that the Occuria are, but to say that Ashe and the party are, makes absolutely no logical sense.
I'd say he's a more interesting version of Kefka...
But Vayne spent the entire game trying to get Larsa to kill him. I always figured he wanted to defeat the Occuria, defeat Rozaria (which was as militant as Archadia), and start a reign of stability and then turn everything over to Larsa. He never seemed to personally want any power outside of what was necessary for the plan.
Conversely, Ashe spends almost the whole game doing exactly what the Occuria want. Admitetly, she does eventually realize this and stops, but for the majority of the game...
FF12: No, sorry, that argument has always been a load of crap. Vayne is, indeed, a power-hungry megalomaniac only out for his own gain. He literally committed genocide against Nebradia, attacked Delmasca without provocation, then murdered the Delmascan king while he was figuratively under a white flag, all merely to get the pieces of the Suncrist. The fact that he met the bare minimum requirements while governing Delmasca does not change any of that. Seriously, he enforced the law and reigned in his guards, thus "solving" a problem that his conquest had created in the first place? Big deal. Shall we give him a biscuit?
And yes, Ashe was following that same path, but the game made it pretty clear that her actions were morally grey at best. And in the end, she rejected that path. As for the Occuria, they are something of a big question mark, because they don't actually do very much. They try to manipulate Ashe into fighting fire with fire and becoming Raithwall's successor as the next Dynast monarch, and that's about it. Meanwhile, Vayne killed (probably) millions of people, incited war with the Rosarian Empire, and basically sought to conquer the whole known world.
I suppose if we were to look at the bigger picture, it could be argued that Vayne and the Occuria were equally villains in the story. The Occuria's villainy was much longer term, while Vayne's was happening right now. One could say that they were basically waging war against each other and the entire world was caught in the crossfire. That would definitely be an understandable point of view. But to suggest that Vayne is not really a villain and that Ashe is? No. That's utter crap.
You are completely incorrect in regards to FFXII.
Firstly, he is absolutely attempting to amass power for himself and cares not a lick for the rest of mankind. This is apparent by him executing two of his brothers, murdering his father, imprisoning the Archadian consul and becoming the Emperor of Archadia until he decides not to be anymore. Not to mention he started the entire war to get the Dusk & Midlight shards and explore their power.
Secondly, he only managed to win over the people of Rabanastre by framing Basch for the murder of their beloved king, thereby making them turn on one of their own and trusting Vayne into bringing them justice, and throwing the starving people of Rabanastre a feast to show good faith, even though Archaida is keeping a stranglehold on the nation and can be assumed is denying the people food in the first place AND the fete was used a setup to capture the Resistance forces anyway.
And what do you mean in his lifetime? HE'S CALLED THE UNDYING! Something about that name implies that he won't be kicking the bucket for quite a while. And I can only imagine what being ruled by a megalomaniacal metal-dragon-zombie who's obsessed with the fantasy version of nuclear warheads would be like, but we can assume it wouldn't be all sunshine and rainbows.
I will say that Ashe is a selfish and easily manipulated character at the beginning of the story, but she grows into the role of a savior. A character weakness gives her depth. At least she isn't outright evil. The difference is Ashe is unaware of the Occuria and their influence over her, whereas Vayne is aware of them and is in full, deliberate control of his actions. Plus, what did he think was going to happen when he kills the newly wed husband of the heir to the Dynast King's lineage?
Basically, an interesting idea, but one that is easily refuted by events in the game.
A couple of corrections for you. Vayne and Venat were in fact trying to take control back from the Occuria. Venat maybe moreso than Vayne, who can say? Just listen to the lines before the final battle if you want proof.
"Vayne: Venat! [Venat appears] I have failed us both. I am no Dynast-King. You must find another. One who might realize your ambitions.
Venat: They are fulfilled beyond your knowing. The Cryst is sundered, Age of Stones, complete. From the Undying ones the world is freed. You shall not tread this path alone. Together we go, come..."
And the second correction also comes from this. Vayne was NOT The Undying until he merged with Venat as a last-ditch effort to beat the party. There's nothing stating he'd have been immortal had similar events not occurred. What is clear, however, is that Venat felt some sort of camaraderie with Vayne and may possibly have offered him immortality by some means but that's mere speculation.
TenchiHawkwing I was under the impression that the three, Vayne, Cid and Venat worked together from the beginning to usurp the Occuria. I could be wrong on this but from the actions of all three I don't see why this wouldn't be the case.
As for him becoming the Undying to stop the party- who's to say that wasn't his intention anyway? He must have gathered all that mist and nethicite for a reason, and he knew how to become Vayne Novus without the aid of Venat. Whether his Novus form grants him an extended life is uncertain, but clearly he had some idea of morphing his being into something more powerful. Although I will grant that this could merely be a coincidence, and he only figured out he could change his form after he gathered all that power.
But yeah you're right, these points could theoretically go either way. I'm still of the opinion that Vayne is a psychopath that has virtually no charity in his heart, especially after he smacks Larsa, the only person he said he'd never harm.
Well, their basic intentions are pretty much laid bare in those couple of lines.
Venat wanted to (for some reason) free the world from the control of the Occuria. It doesn't seem that Vayne fully understood this since he didn't realize they'd already done what Venat wanted hence her saying "They are fulfilled beyond your knowing." Essentially, Venat won. She chose to die with Vayne there with her mission fully completed.
The line that Vayne says after all that "Won't Cid be eager to learn what has happened here" leads me to believe he knew they were about to die at the hands of the party and yet he didn't seem to be angry or disappointed or anything. That whole end part really makes me think Vayne is just following Venat's orders without fully understanding why. Cid seems to have been a lot more knowledgeable about what was going on than Venat and Cid didn't seem ill-intentioned... just overly zealous.
What Vayne 'actually' wanted, outside of giving Venat what she wants, isn't very clearly defined. It's weird.
I feel like Vayne mentality was for the greater good sacrifice would be needed. He had to remove his brothers, his father, and the consul so he has full control of the country to get what he needed done. Sure people will die and suffer but the end goal was freeing humanity which seem to be on a much higher importance.
And he not about being just or rightous its about getting the job done and in truth is goal is overall good.
MORE 13 VIDS PLEASE! I need the "hidden lore" of this game explained thoroughly..
SergeantAnonymous agree
I having played all the XIII, I barely know the lore. I need someone to spoon feed it to me
Oh, I do love me some FFXIII lore. Here's the proper starting point around which everything revolves:
So from FFXIII-2, we find out the universe of Fabula Nova Crystallis exists in three realms - that of the living, the unseen realm of the dead and Valhalla, the realm between the two. There began two gods, Bhunivelze and his mother Mwynn. Bhunivelze wants total control over the mortal realm, and slays his own mother, sending her to the unseen realm.
Despite his newfound total control, Bhunivelze feels troubled (the things matricide will do for you) and becomes paranoid, fearing Mwynn had put a curse on the world. To ease his mind, Bhunivelze desires to finish off his mother once and for all, but in order to reach the unseen realm, he would have to give up his current power.
So, he creates three deities to assist him - Pulse, Etro and Lindzei - before putting himself into crystal sleep. Pulse is tasked with finding the gate to the unseen realm whilst Lindzei is tasked with protecting the universe (and Bhunivelze) and was to be the one to awaken Bhunivelze when the gate was found. Etro however, was created in Mwynn's image, and so Bhunivelze stripped her of all her powers. In her sadness and as a desperate plea to Bhunivelze, Etro tore herself apart and disappeared to the unseen realm. Her blood was later used by Lindzei to create humans.
Etro enters Valhalla to find Mwynn being consumed by Chaos. With her dying breath, Mwynn tasks Etro with keeping the balance of the world.
In the meantime, Pulse and Lindzei create fal'Cie to aid in their search of the gate. Pulsian fal'Cie search the land, seas and skies for the gate (that's why Atomos digs his tunnels, Dahaka flies the skies, etc.) They are also distinctly Darwinian in nature, believing in survival of the fittest, whilst keeping balance to the world.
Lindzei on the other hand has a far more duplicitous scheme. Though initially only tasked with protecting the universe and Bhunivelze, s/he develops an interest in finding the gate for Bhunivelze. Upon death, the humans s/he made pass into Valhalla, and so Lindzei constructs a plan - kill enough humans at once, and the gate will be torn open. He tasks his fal'Cie with creating Cocoon, and luring humans there as it is a paradise. Barthandelus, who runs the Sanctum fal'Cie watches over the construction of this human farm.
But in making Cocoon, Lindzei's fal'Cie steal from the surface of Pulse and this develops a feeling of resentment between the Pulse dwellers and Cocoon, which culminates in the War of Transgression. During the War, Fang and Vanille are branded by the fal'Cie Anima who was Oerba's guardian fal'Cie to become Ragnarok and destroy Cocoon. However, Vanille cannot go through with it and Fang's incomplete form of Ragnarok can only break Cocoon's shell. Then Etro steps in - seeing the potential for disaster she prematurely locks Fang and Vanille into crystal stasis.
Pulse loses the War, and its cultures begin to collapse as the fal'Cie task the humans with Focuses they cannot complete, and cities become Cie'th settlements. Cocoon rebuilds, taking the necessary pieces from Pulse but Barthandelus also organises it such that Fang and Vanille, along with the fal'Cie Anima are brought onto Cocoon as well, all so they can be used to complete his plan when they awaken.
...I should probably stop here or else I won't stop. I hope some of that was new to you and that it was interesting.
randoMMis Holy shit, that was awesome! Definitely didn't know all that. Thanks for taking the time to type all that up! Tho I do have a couple of questions... Valhalla is like purgatory? A realm that you must pass to get to the unseen realm? So Mwynn got stuck there instead of passing? Where did the Chaos come from? Is it a force created by Mwynn's own despair at being murdered by her own son, or was it a pre-existing force within Valhalla? If Etro "stepped in" to crystallize Fang and Vanille during the War of Transgression, that means Etro found the gate Bhunivelze was looking for, and she can pass through it willingly? How? Did Mwynn give her the power to do so? Also, at the end of 13, Fang and Vanille forming a giant crystal pillar to save Cocoon from falling, that was Etro again? What was with the whole 13-2 storyline? Sorry, I know that's a lot of questions... this is why I'd like a Pez video. lol
Well, people tend to forget the smaller details after 8 years
If Vayne's main concern was to liberate mankind from the Occuria, you'd think that instead of wiping out the monarchy of one land, killing his own father, letting Bergan kill the Gran Kiltias, and making enemies of his own people (his little brother and a few of his own judges included), he'd be working to get everyone on the same page. Yes, he wants mankind to be free of the Occuria, but whatever good that might do is warped by the fact that he wants to be the equivalent of a NEW Occuria. I don't think "he's charming and he doesn't want to murder EVERYONE" classifies him as a good guy. He's only a few steps away from Kefka as far as I'm concerned, only slightly less crazy and a lot less entertaining.
Wooow Wooow hold on.... a Few steps from Kefka?
That is waaaaaay over the moral line already xD
Exactly. Vayne was nothing more than a sociopathic snake. Trying to make him out as the hero legit upset me lolz.
This!
@Old Toby AND HE KILLED MY BROTHER!!!
rofl holy shit the people that legit think Vayne is the hero and ask "would it be that bad" are the same ones that would agree that France should've surrendered because "would it really be that bad". god damn thats such a fucking awful take on the plot of XII.
I think the idea behind Vayne is that, unlike most early FF antagonists, he's a politician. The nice speech was just a front, he was willing to murder most of his family in cold blood and completely undermined the "democratically elected" council members by framing them and installing himself as an emperor. Sure his goal is sympathetic, but he's still very much an antagonist, and a very good one at that.
Indeed. We can have sympathies for him, but it stops there, and our care 'should' be for characters like Larsa.
We really need you to do a 13 trilogy lore. Please. Hearing you talking about it makes everything clearer and more interesting than playing the games! Love your channel.
You should do a 13 trilogy/type 0 lore dive in!
Wait... Barthandelus was king of Gran Pulse?! Where did I miss this?!
I saw him more as a space pope.
Makes more sense if you consider that vanille and fang were made in pulse centuries past ff13 events and that he a ascended to power hiding his identity.
From what I remember, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream from the Mt Nibel reactor and ended up crystallized at the Northern Crater, where he existed in a suspended state that allowed him to travel anywhere in the world through the Lifestream. Because of his connection to Jenova, he was able to reshape the headless corpse in Shin-Ra tower and start walking around, manipulate others with Jenova cells, and focusing on Reunion to get the Black Materia and attain godhood by standing at the source of a massive Lifestream flood healing a planetbusting wound.
Jenova...doesn't exist anymore, I think is the whole point. She had been dead for an extremely long time, and was put in a tube up on Mt Nibel for culturing purposes. The Sephiroth in the game is literally himself, but using all of the tricks Jenova used against the Cetra because he's essentially the closest thing to Jenova now.
There isn't even a "will of Jenova," considering Jenova was a parasitic lifeform that rode in on space debris and tried to infect the Cetra to spread itself. Sephiroth's ambitions had absolutely nothing to do with that, because he wanted to become a god-like being.
The closest thing to Jenova's will is in Advent Children when Sephiroth says he wants to kill everyone on the planet and then use it as a vessel to find another planet, with another Lifestream that he can absorb. Even then, that's just an idea he got from Jenova because that's what it did.
The biggest misconception in FFXIII is its overflown lore. All 3 games combined have over 400 pages of lore, in FFXIII-2 we have around 200 pages alone and thats without all those legends and myths and backstories. I love those games, but the fact that the original FFXIII pretty much threw the player into the world without telling anything about its lore hurt the whole Trilogy and the FNC as a whole as well.
That was always my issue with the game... I dont want to read lore logs... I want the lore to be presented in game through what happens...
Who else came for the XIII theory?
I'm game for ANYTHING 13 related and I honestly hope Peasant does more.
I know FF15 is the new hotness and that'll bring in more views and more subscribers but I think a good chunk of us would love/appreciate more 13 videos.
Especially since he's stated 13-2 is his favorite.
Versus is not his area of expertise. He knows this.
Maybe he can do KH.
Haero Archon I did.
Here!
This was awesome, do more like this! I'm stoked you said you'll be tackling FFIX.
Also; I'd watch a 20min video for *each game* if you dug into their lore, especially since I don't have time to play, replay, and get deep into the stories and theories anymore. So, thanks Pez!
I got the feeling from Vayne that he had every intention of dying at the end and that he had planed all along to put his brother on the throne. He had stated that his hands were too bloody to rule and that his brother was far cleaner. Vayne seemed like the type that does what IS right more then what FEELS right. So I think at the end he was successful in what he had planed.
didnt Vayne killed some of his own family?
FF12 REMASTER HYPE ONLY 3 MORE MONTHSSSSSS
Too long !!
FF13's lore is an example of a lore so deep, that the developers themselves drowned in it. So, let me correct a few things:
1. Valhalla is in the unseen realm, there is no heaven and hell, there is only Valhalla.
2. Lightning killed Lindzei actually: "Lindzei personally manifests during Lightning's battle with Bhunivelze, transforming into a half of a twin scythe for him to wield, and is apparently destroyed during the battle." Yes, that was him, he was pretty weak compared to Bhuni.
3. FF13, has no villains: Bhunivelze created Pulse and Lindzei to find a way to the unseen realm, where he could kill etro because he thought she was plotting against him. Etro does not want to die and uses any means necessary to survive as long as she could.
The biggest Problem with FF13 and villains, is that you have closed loops of cause and effect. This is so incredibly complex, that I would literary have to write a thesis of 30 Pages to explain this stuff, and that is not an understatement. Small example:
In 13-2 when Noel's Yeul dies, she sees a vision and tells him "WE WILL MEET AGAIN".
This Vision does come true, BUT it comes true in 13-3 AFTER Bhunivelze has been defeated. This means, that from this moment, his defeat was already Fate, but think of all the things that needed to happen after that, and that includes the actions of people who knew about this vision, it could be argued that even Caius knew about this. So did he know what would happen?
Did Etro know what would happen? Was it her plan all along?
And this gets more and more complicated from there on xD
PS: Also the timeline is AT LEAST in 6D
Except that Bhunivelze kicked everything off by murdering his own mother, Mwynn. Now, she was a god, so being murdered just meant that she was trapped in the unseen, but still. Even giving him a pass for being above human morality that's pretty villainous.
From there, Bhunivelze set about trying to play the creator, but since he refused to accept that chaos was a necessary component of existence, he sucked at it. The only reason life existed at all in the FFXIII world is that Mwynn (and after she expended herself, Etro) were feeding chaos across the veil. Mwynn quite literally sacrificed herself to keep life humming in spite of Bhunivelze's idiocy, and so did Etro after her. And once Etro was gone, the world started disintegrating in one of the few instances in the series of a world falling apart due to a lack of darkness.
Only by killing Bhunivelze (and by extension Pulse and Lindzei) could the energies making up the world be put into a proper balance of light and darkness and get reset, because Bhunivelze simply wouldn't accept that darkness was a necessary component (and he may not have been capable of directing chaos anyway, meaning the worlds were doomed from the moment he killed Mwynn). Or at least that's what I've come up with.
This is all assuming that "darkness" from other games in the series equates to chaos from the XIII games, which may not be exactly right but it seems pretty close from what I can tell.
Bhun. could not see chaos or the human souls that were a part of the chaos. If he had succeeded, he would have been the ultimate "God in the machine" philosophical example where everything was a part of some infallible program where nothing had a choice in what they did. In essence, there would be no true life, no true growth, no true destruction... Nothing to overcome, nothing to love.... He would have failed at everything he tried to copy.
Final Fantasy 13 is extremely extremely deep on the concepts of free will. What you say is just the surface. I would argue, that final fantasy 13 has Hard Incompatibilism (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FreeWillTaxonomy4.svg) .
Chaos is Indeterminism, but Bhuni was the God of Determinism, so he could not see Chaos.
But even Chaos does not free someone from Fate in FF13, as Visions still exist, and there is NO known instance in universe, where Fate was avoided actually (And all the instances where it seems that way, can be originated to a God (This actually deconstructs Deus Ex Machina also)). It is just 6 Dimensional Fate, with Timetravel (and it has lots of plot holes, because it was impossible to write something this
complicated). That is actually in itself a really radical statement about Quantum Mechanics that we have here.
I originally thought, the Devs just mashed everything together without thinking about it at all. But then we have things like a Quest From 13-3 that is called: "Free Will" it is essentially about if THE PLAYER himself has free will or not. And that makes it seem like they did indeed think so far.
That just makes me love the game even more
I am so glad to see someone on youtube who is not hating on FF13. in my humble opinion, 13 has one of the most rich and amazing lores on the series, grounded characters like hope and Sazh are hard to find (as much as hope is annoyng, he pretty much acts according to his age) Sazh, Lightning and Caius are my favorite characters and oh boy the combat system is just sweet af.
That's EXACTLY it and I don't see why people don't get it.
The characters have flaws...that what makes them so relateable...Vanille isn't just "Happy go lucky giggly ditzy girl" that's just an ACT to hide her pain/sorrow but most people write her off.
Lightning isn't just "A bitch" she has a reason to be that way and even then, she warms up and even starts cracking casual jokes with the gang and smiling. She changes in midway into 13, even more in 13-2 and even MORE in 13-3.
Or like you said with Hope, yes...he is whiny and annoying but...he's a 14 year old boy who watched his mom die right INFRONT OF HIM. Anyone would be upset/distraught over it.
And infact, I'd say Hope has the BEST character development in all of 13.
I would say FF13 is not that bad (still I dont like the tone and design of this game anyway) BUT FF13-2 and versus are.
Edzoneko I hated everything about 13 expect for Sazh he was the only likeable thing about that entire game. My opinion though, I also loved FF8 so everyones different.
Edzoneko 13 has an insane amount of lore, but the reason "most people didn't understand" is because it generally did a terrible job of explaining it
I can usually follow complex stories with complicated plot points but I have to admit FF13 lost me at points. liked it a lot more during a second play through!
hmm I always believed the real villain in 7 was Hojo.
true villain wise the whole gray area of 12 is huge and more or less would take hours yk go through all the dialogue of any npc, story event, and interaction that can happen in game to explain it at it's best. Though the story for 12 kinda everywhere I do believe it has the best world of any ff game and I will stand by that thoroughly
i also loved the 13 series lore, for all its short comings in gameplay, the story rly impressed me and kept me playing. MORE PLEASE, MORE !
shout out to my fellow 13 fans where u at guys, unit we are the ultimate FF fan group
Represent! I love FF13 and I think it's one of the best FF games and I've 100% all 3 of them, and am beginning to practice speedrunning them.
I've even got some of the rare "Elixir" merchandise, collectors editions, play arts figures etc...such a great game
Sohtak 😁 👍
I love the 13 series, I think only the nostalgia fans are the ones that hate it or never gave it an open minded chance
First FF I've played and it is still my fave
BlackSteel KeyChain lightning is bae just came to say that
Yea for FF12 I think you can frame either side as the villian or the hero.
Thats why I liked 12... the rogue occuria actually had good motives... to put the destiny of man into their own hands. I love when antagonists arent a dark lord
There's a good reason most people don't know that Etro helped the party at the end of XIII, which is that THE BLOODY GAME DOESN'T EVEN HINT AT IT. I guess this got explained in an untranslated test story and it does get more or less explained in XIII-2, but jeez.
I like the underlying lore of the XIII series, but the execution was just miserably bad.
It's hint at the end of Chapter 11, where Etro saved Fang and Vanille 700 years before the main story.
Lindzei COULD be fought in Type Next/1 or even 2 or whatever, but, they couldn't be killed, bc they're still around in XIII3 when Bhunivelze summons them and Lightning destroys them with Bhunivelze and Pulse to become the god of the new world
The clones gravitated towards Jenova. _Jevnoa_ gravitated towards Sephiroth, which is why Jenova left the Shinra building.
Sephiroth's behavior is irrelevant because it wasn't him. This is borderline objective fact. The real sephiroth was in the crater and the person you chase is jenova. Her cell was broken out of from the inside and that's where the blood trail starts. Her being in control makes sense during the flashback but he likely takes control sometime after traversing the livestream and cloud disturbing her cell.
There's videos out there that break it down better I'm just going off memory, but she didn't know who you were and left pieces of herself behind to fight you each time you catch her, but she was likely trying to bring the name of sephiroth back to stir up the clones and resume the reunion.
except it isnt borderline objective fact as it is directly stated that they have a joint conciousness. Theres no such thing as a 'real sephiroth', your are talking about a game and two villains that transcend the physical.
"Sephiroth is devoted to Jenova and its cause, even though its body serves as little more than his avatar. It is also stated he is now an agent carrying out Jenova's will." "Through his control over Jenova, Sephiroth can shapeshift her cells into his visage and other forms, and act through them as though they were his own body. " Jenova is a proxy body for Sephiroths mind, that is the objective facts compadre ;)
Then at what point did they become one? In the livestream? And I suppose in the process he gets his God complex and talks as if no ones there despite that person being the man who killed him? It seems like you're making it more convoluted than it needs to be in order to make a point.
Yes in the lifestream. Not only was that when the assimilation fully happened, though you could argue Jenova didnt need that for assimilation. It was also when Seph cut away parts of his humanity. For sephiroth to endure only the most important aspects of his will could endure, things like empathy, sympathy etc were lost. Thats a part of why he doesnt remember cloud, his god complex was even beginning to form in the damn library for goodness sake. You literally here him talking about taking the world back from traitors before he jumps so explain that? Im not making anything more conuluted, I'm stating facts of the game, facts the directors have confirmed. The other part of not remember cloud is as explained, the balance of control between seph/jenova was an ever moving scale in the game
OP edited to concede an element of control was in sephiroths hand? That there was a mental link?
I edited it before you commented to fix a spelling error because iPhones don't think sephiroth is a proper name. I never argued the mental link or any of that, I simply disagreed that it was always sephiroth and he didn't recognize cloud because of his God complex. It seems more likely to me that sephiroth was in control but that it was still jenova talking to them, and that they aren't literally one mind. The idea that jenova was deceiving him because she couldn't fully control him is interesting though.
I like the 11 theory, it's interesting. FF13... That story was a mess, if you're gonna have that much background lore that's convoluted on it's own, on top of a convoluted story you need to explain things carefully cuz it was SO confusing. Constantly referencing things they haven't actually explained yet, we don't even see most of the gods who are the core of the story. Just a mess.
I think the other gods were to show up in Agito/Type-0 and Versus but 13 kind of ruined that hence the chances with those games.
jlwest23 That's a problem with Square lately though, they want to do multiple games and shows that interconnect but a good story gives you everything you need to know to understand it. If they walled off info you needed to understand 13 in Agito/Type-0 and Versus then that's bad writing. They could still connect but they didn't give you the info you needed to understand 13 in 13.
Etro was to play a big part in Versus and we can see how that turned out.
jlwest23 Hopefully they stop doing this is future games, FF stories usually have a lot to follow already with all the necessary info.
Considering the ties between Tactics and XII and the plot of Tactics and the Ramza and Delita drama, I assume the perspective was meant to be muddy when zoomed out to the big picture like that. Thank you for calling that out, excellent upload
Love these long videos! Gives me something to do at work! We get slow.
Chameleon in a bag of Skittles is the real most gem of the vid.
The pattern I’ve seen through all Final Fantasy games I’ve played is that there’s usually (if not always) a personal antagonist (main villain) who shares a personal connection/history with the protagonist thru which their conflict is the focus of the story, and an impersonal antagonist (overall villain) who has no connection to the protagonist but is the one who overall is responsible for the world events leading up to the protagonist’s story.
For example, FF7 has Sephiroth and Shinra serve the role of the main villains because of their history with Cloud & company whereas Jenova is the overall villain because she’s ultimately responsible for all the events that lead up to FF7 and whose presence is still a lingering threat in the world of FF7.
In FF12’s case, I’d say Vayne is definitely the main villain because of his history with the 2 main heroes, Ashe & Vaan, while the occuria are the overall villains. Eventhough Vayne does mankind a solid by setting man free from occurian manipulation he still would’ve caused mass genocide through the world war he provoked with the Rozarrian Empire.
So really it shouldn’t be about which villain in a FF story is the 'better' villain when they serve different roles that are mutually important to the story in the end.
Trying to choose sides between Ashe and Vayne, from a moral standpoint, is like trying to chose sides between Hitler and Stalin.
Ultimatedly both were good and evil, and either victory would have caused both progress and suffering. The problem with politics is that the world is not a monolithic entity and what benefits one country may destroy another.
FFXIII real villain is Bhunivelze is in the lore, since that was He that created the Pulse, Etro and Lindzei to search Etro's gate, but since Etro reminded so much of his mother, He decided to kill her, us humans in FFXIII lore are Etro offsprings, their children, and Etro in Valhalla met a dying Mwynn, that pass her power to protect both worlds, later Etro passes to Lightning, that's why Caius sometimes calls Lightning, goddess, that what I understood fromm FXIII lore!
The villains of FF13 are the writers. Everyone else is just a victim of horrendous writing.
fat4eyes LOL! Nice
I honestly don't think it's written poorly, I think it's just so vague and hard to piece together that you might as well be playing Demon's Souls and trying to figure out THAT lore. Or, to compare trilogy+related title to trilogy+related title. Fabula Nova Crystalis == SoulsBorne lore-wise. Hard as hell to piece together and explain, but with a basic narrative that gets you through the game.
I played XIII, loved it, hated XIII-2 because I always hate pets-as-party-member systems like Tales of Symphonia 2 had. Played Lightning Returns, loved it. I liked the stories they told for the simpler narrative that mainlined the plot. I don't have the brainpower to put together the pieces to get the whole picture, but I found that what I COULD understand was good enough for me.
But yeah, the writing could pull people into the deep lore a bit harder.
Agreed Kenji. I would also place KH in the group of games that have a lore and story that requires much digging on the players part
The thing is, all the supplementary material, should be just that, supplementary and not required to understand the main story. Many games with good stories (most classic Bioware titles, Skyrim, Bioshocks) are able to present a good understandable story but are still filled to the brim with little stories that flesh out the lore. A game that REQUIRES the supplemental material just to understand the main story has failed in its presentation.
What's even more annoying is that there are some actual interesting characters in FF13 (Lightning and Sazh) who are more than the typical anime stock characters. These characters were wasted on a very badly presented story, which makes the game's failings even more noticeable.
fat4eyes I have to ardently agree with you on your point regarding the role of supplemental information in storytelling. One of my cardinal "oh no no's" in gaming is when the writers depend to much on external sources in order to deliver what should be a 'stand alone' story. And in my opinion, every game that isn't a direct sequel should be stand alone.
FF15 lost points with me on that one big time, as it depended far too heavily on extra movies, amines, demos, and even PR spots just to deliver the primary story. Halo 5 was just as bad. FF13 I thought overly relied on their codex and frequently committed to sin of "too much tell/not enough show" in world building (over reliance on exposition in other words).
And good grief....Kingdom Hearts is a category unto itself what with all its dependencies on spin offs (on various platforms no less), Retcons, and winning the Olympic Gold Medal in confusing plot development with plot overcomplication (and I even like KH!).
Definitely in agreement here. Supplements are awesome bonuses--not primary story telling devices.
originally the enemy was originally shinra corp which was simply draining the life from the palnet inself which started the heros journey, it then shifted to hojo who worked for shinra corp for recreating jenova and the soldier program which in turn created sephiroth, so strictly speaking any one of those could be considered the main enemy dependant on your own values (but i would personally say the root enemy and cause of the effects and of the events of FF7 was shinra corp and remained so during the aftermath of the events of FF7).
and the trouble with your agument that sephiroth doesnt remember cloud, is that he wouldn't remember him, as cloud was always wearing his soldier gear the blue uniform with the helmet, unlike zack who's memories clouds are based on at that point in the game, cloud later seperates zacks memories from his own memories and only then upon knowing the truth did he overcome jenovas control with the help of tifa (a lot of the sory before the events of FF7 was in zacks story in FF7: crisis core).
The ultimania of ff7 straight up tells us Jenova was used by Sephiroth at all times. He used her head to begin regenerating his body, he initiates the reunion to have his clones bring him the black materia, he instructs Jenova to assume his form and even free Cloud out of his prison. Jenova is, as described in the ultimania, only concerned with destroying everything. Sephiroth's goal isn't total destruction. it's to rule the world.
And why would Sephiroth even remember Cloud? Cloud falsely remembers himself as a soldier first class that had a relationship with Sephiroth. The reality was that Cloud went on a single mission with him, where he never showed his face, as an infantryman that was friends with Zack. The one and only time Sephiroth saw Cloud's was when Cloud stabbed him.
furthermore the ultimania tells us there are people who can resist Jenova's influence. All SOLDIERS are an example.
and finally, Jenova is a virus. Her singular purpose is to infect and destroy everyone and everything. her mimic ability was to allow her to infect the cetra, because it allowed Jenova to get close to them. Only those with Jenova cells in them go "mad," because Jenova cells have a need to return to the main body, thus collapsing the individual's own psyche. Zack and Cloud being part of the Sephiroth clone experiment helps illustrate the point: Zack was a failure because he resisted Jenova, a trait SOLDIER possesses; Cloud however couldn't.
I could see Sephiroth remembering Cloud because he was probably the one person to ever defeat him(with a crazy feat of strength that shocked Sephiroth no less) even if they had only met briefly. Though, Sephiroth not remembering him very well is also plausible. I mostly think Sephiroth not remembering Cloud was there to hint at the fact that Cloud was not the ex-SOLDIER he believed himself to be and it certainly did even though it is later revealed that Cloud did meet Sephiroth beforehand after all.
xseraphx219 I kinda agree, but I also think that Pez has a point when he says that Jenova, exactly like a disease, in a way "infected" Sephiroth's mind and thus altered his path. I don't think he was in control from the start, he probably "wrestled" with Jenova's will for a while and he was pretty surely changed by this fight because he had to sacrifice parts of himself (the "weak parts") in order to be strong enough to take control and porsue his own goal. So yeah, in the end he managed to subdue Jenova but she did have a huge role in the development of his new "self", enhancing some aspects of his personality and destroying others.
Lutz I I have to disagree. The Sephiroth clones and Cloud show us what Jenova does to a person. It firstly makes them want to go to Jenova and reunite, a trait Jenova's cell's possess. And secondly they have a weakend mimicry ability that essentially creates a dissociative identity. in other words Jenova is like a voice in one's head whispering the same desire over and over, as well as having multiple personalities. the combination of both is what drives people into insanity.
Sephiroth doesn't display either. Sephiroth's new self was brought about because of pride. He thought himself the strongest human, and a hero, to find out he was a lab rat, Hojo's in fact (he doesn't even respect him as a scientist), and a monster. Having his pride hurt, he latches on to Gast's incorrect belief that Jenova, and thus he, is an ancient. Learning all of the truth in the lifestream (probably in the same manner materia teaches magic) Sephiroth discards all notions of being a hero or a savior. he focuses on the only thing that matters: he is the strongest. His pride make him fancy himself a God, and thus he has to become a God. This sets in motion his plan to fuse with the lifestream and become one with the world.
In my opinion the greatest indicator of this is how Squaresoft designed him. His name is Hebrew in origin, and his final form possibly being an allusion to the ten aspects of creation in Jewish mysticism; thus implying Sephiroth has become one who can create anything. The black wing may be symbolic of a fallen angel. All in context it has many similarities to the ultimate story of pride being what drives one into madness and begins their downfall: the story of Lucifer.
xseraphx219 I do see your point, and the analogy with Lucifer is absolutely fitting (and beautiful I may say), I just find hard to completely discard the notion of Jenova as at least a catalyst. I can't see her as completely irrelevant in the making of the "god" Sephiroth, whose character is built on pride but also desire for annihilation, a primal drive that does echo the destructive instinct that is Jenova (and if Jenova is a parasite than Sephiroth is quite the perfect host since his will is largely in tune with hers, it's pretty much a symbiotic match). Yes, Sephiroth is "a man (god) of his own making", every choice is his own as he is in control of the calamity, but would have it been really the same without Jenova's call for blood poisoning his mind? The worst obsessions can be born from a simple fleeting intrusive thought, I could see Jenova as at least something similar. But this is a matter of slightly different interpretation, because Sephiroth is in charge anyway, I do agree that it's his Pride that made him, with or without Jenova's "push".
Lutz - Jenova was a parasitic lifeform, but not necessarily something with a "desire" like that of a person. Look at cordyceps, it is one of the most evil infections ever seen, and it controls hosts to keep spreading. It feels like fiction because how could nature make such a perfectly dangerous parasite that can brainjack a host.
Not once did Sephiroth's intentions of becoming a god line up with Jenova's nature of infection and spread, and in fact, Sephiroth used Jenova's nature to make his goals a near-reality. The thing is that Jenova has been dead for centuries before Sephiroth ever came along, and Sephiroth was able to use all of Jenova's tricks like mimicry and Reunion for his own goals, because he was the closest thing to a Jenova-like organism, so he capitalized on what he truly was to get what he wanted.
Jenova isn't the villain of FFVII, but she is definitely the catalyst for a lot of the antagonists, chief among them Sephiroth.
My favorite villains in FF are Ardyn Izunia, Caius Ballad and Vayne Solidor.
That's the thing I've always tried to argue about the FF13 series...
It has a DAMN GOOD story... but it was just horribly written from a technical perspective.
Its horribly presented. Good story if it was actually told as the game unfolds...
I would like to add the story and role division of 7 has ties the a poem/play named loveless and even though Sephiroth and Jenova are indeed forces to be reckoned with they do not seem to fit the role of villain but rather that of a tool being used to play out scribed words on paper, most important part that seems to be forgotten is that the prologue of this actually describes the ending as much as the premise of the following text thats seems to keep adding a chapter once one is played out.... upon further investigation that means they are all just puppets of fate tied to that single story in a never ending loop for as long as they live reaching for that ultimate answer to their bound existence "When the war of the beasts brings about the world's end
The goddess descends from the sky
Wings of light and dark spread afar
She guides us to bliss, her gift everlasting"
I say that play/poem is a curse and the true villain of the story driving men mad to chase the dream that ends in death.
Ondore was the main villain of FFXII. He tells the story of the game, he wrote the book of History about the events of the game and he twisted what the player learns and sees to his own ends. He directs Ashe, He creates the resistance and he provokes Vayne into bringing the Bahamut to destroy Dalmasca by amassing an armarda. As the game itself says "Don't believes Ondores lies" he frames Vayne as the villian.
Pulse and Lindzei are the main villains in the first game as the Ultimania reveals they left deliberately so as to manipulate their respective Fal'Cie to open the Door of Souls for them and knew they would want to meet them which led to the Fal'Cie causing the War of Transgression and everything else that happens in that game.
Bhunivelze is the ultimate villain of the FFXIII Trilogy though since everything that happens in it all goes back to him.
Well we do sort of get to face Lindzi, just as a part of Bhunivelze's weapon when he summons both gods to do battle with Lightning.
wow! I feel like playing FFXIII series now...mind boggling
I'd whole heartedly recommend it!
The FF fanbase is just a bunch of babies that want EVERY FF game to be 4,6,7,8,9,10 and literally nothing else ever, just the same game again and again and again and again.
Go into it with an open mind, don't listen to haters and I'm sure you'd enjoy it.
Sohtak If you really say FF 4,6,7,8,9,10 was the same you not FF Fan! You mainstream. FF 13 is good FF 15 yes but to easy in combat system. FF was to linear and have not much mini games(this was main point) F F 15 story problem.
So if i wish me good Story and good gameplay : Iam say in you eyes every FF should be the same?? Whats wrong with you?? If i pay 70€ for a game so i want more that fucking DLC contest for complete the game!
But ok you mainstream gamer all casual easy player which pay Games with mom's and Dads credit card 💳:)
So ok iam old school and lets like Quality🤗
Before Games was mainstream many goodies/stuff virtually or physically like DLC /Hartcover was normal version you must not pay again.
And in the and i dont hate FF 13,15 i only now both FFs the FF13 series and FF15 universe can be perfect if not mainstream buy 30-60% of the Game and say yeah.
But that IS the case, look at any new FF game that comes out.
12 is trash because it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10
13 is trash because it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10
14 is trash because it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10
15 is trash because it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10
(In the future) 16 is trash because it's not 4,6,7,8,9,10
It ALWAYS comes back to those select games.
FF2 dawn of Souls FF5, FF6, FF7, FF8, ff10, and FF12 copy each other a whole lot. FF13 and FF15 go back to FF1 and FF4. The original FF12 Zodiac age is more like FF4. FF4 has a Highwind army like in FF12, but everbody is a hybrid Class like in ff5-Ff8/10. FF112 Zodiac age makes you stick to one class ,like a true FF4. FF13 is linear, but it sticks to classes like FF4 and FF1. Wait, FF10 is linear also to a degree. FF13 is Linear, but makes since being Linear because it's what the whole story is about. Being forced to move as directed by Fal'cie. FF15 has an open ended story, but It feels like FF1. Meaning that FF15 was kind of a remake of FF1 if the characters could talk. You're just on an adventure with a plot twist at chapter 13. The dungeons in FF15 brought that classic longevity to them that classic FF games had. Is FF15 easy, yes. Yet, so is FF7. You don't have to fight Ruby weapon. If you just follow every FF games story, it's linear. FFV, FF2 Dawn of souls and FF13 are the hardest. There's also a reason why if the character you controls dies is a game over. You need every character to be in the game to fulfill the focus. Plus, if the main character in Persona 5 dies, you start from the save spot, rather than getting a retry like in FF13. So why hate on FF13? The greatest FF game is FF10 to me. To make every character similar is not easy and the true bad guys are the Yu Yevon holier than thou crew.
You got me. I love V, VI, VIII, and IX and want more. I thought XV sucked because it wasn't one of those games instead of because it had no plot to speak of. I disliked XIII because it wasn't one of my favorite FF games instead of because Hope is nails-on-chalk-board and the mythology is too convoluted and written into the corner of a Greek Amphitheater. (By which I mean it clearly aims for a catch-22 tragedy that it then tries to deus ex machina out of because the set up to the tragedy was so airtight that they wrote themselves into a corner. Not to mention that they repeated this exact process for both direct sequels.) XIII had some great characters, but a terrible setting/exposition. It got a lot better when they introduced Caius and Yeul, and a lot worse again in Lightning Returns (even though LR had arguably one of the best battle systems in the franchise; one that clearly IS the future of ATB and desperately needs adapted into a multi-character party system, the initial proof of concept for which is already in LR itself with AI Fang and AI Noel being able to do their jobs at least as well as a "Tales of" computer).
my impression from playing it years ago was always sephiroth was never actually there.. Everytime you see him hes a figmant of clouds imagination to cope with the horrible things hes actually doing. No one says anything but its implied several times through. Cloud escaped his cell killed pres shinra,cloud stabbed aeris, was talking to no one on the boat as you can see he melted up through the floor, and the ancient temple. Hell he even convinced himself he was going to rescue aeris at shinra HQ and chase sephiroth for revenge.. In reality he was pulled to jenovah who then awoke and began moving to a reunion with sephiroth who cloud continued to follow...cloud was the one being controlled the entire first 1/2 of the game and before when him and zack began moving towards midgar to jenovah. Everytime hes talking to sephiroth its like the party is watching him have a conversation with himself. The real villian and hero is cloud
Hojo is definitely the main villian in the entire game. And Jenova is not a female. The woman infused with Jenova you're talking about is most likely Sephiroth's mother who died at birth because of the Jenova infusion. Jenova did not take over Sephiroth's mind.
It is all his own act.
He studied the library's books in the Basement (basically) his parent's mansion, by accident, finding the information about... literally, himself.
My headcanon is that "Sephiroth is the new Jenova". Either his will subsumed Jenova's when he merged with her, causing him to take her place; or the Jenova cells were seeking a new personality because the original Jenova was long since dead. Regardless, he states that his goal is to use the Planet as a ship of sorts and find other worlds with other living beings to infest, much as Jenova had done. He's still Sephiroth but with the full maturation of Jenova's powers in him, Jenova's goals become his goals.
I was shocked when Sephiroth intelligence was beyond human comprehentsion, even beyond Jenova.
>Vayne is just a mortal man
>literally turns into The Undying in the final battle
One thing about the occuria, with venat and his motivations is why did he leave the occuria? The scene with ashe talking to the consul of the occuria in the heavens/crystal it is apparent to me that the occuria seem to have a hierarchy with the occuria who talked first being in charge and with venat's seat at his right, that would lead me to believe that venat is second in command. And we must assume venat to be number 2 since they sealed themselves off after scions of dark rebelled, so for eternity. Maybe this is not venat -a being who has no qualms controlling history for eternity- to suddenly switch sides, by giving mankind the gods weapons, (possibly the only weapons that can hurt them as the suncryst is made by their power, but when the cryst was destroyed the occuria didn't seem to be hurt, so I may be reaching) to start a new rebellion. Not to free mankind from the will of the occuria but rather to bind mankind to the will of one occuria, venat. I don't understand how a god can all of a sudden become a champion of free will without his actions serving a purpose in his favor. This could be argued against as venat makes himself vulnerable by joining with vayne, though my counterpoint is that venat sees his plan has failed to supplant the occuria and he decides death is preferred than eternal exile that the scions are currently dealing with. any thoughts? thanks for reading this.
Pez, if you haven't yet, you should look up the FF8 theory that rinoa is ultimecia. its by far the most perfect, almost flawless theories that I've ever heard. My heart started racing, I was sweating while reading it, the whole 9.
***spoiler***
i cried like an infant when I got to the part where it said that the scene at the end of the game with the hole in squalls face didn't mean that squall was dead, but that rinoa/ultimecia couldn't remember his face anymore because of her GF. It turns the entire game into the most tragic love story ever told in ff history.
Brendin Bullard That bit at the end was Squall forgetting himself and Rinoa, just as Ultimecia said he(and everyone else that was there) would and all they will know is her, that's why Rinoa was replaced by Ultimecia in that scene, those were the last bits of his memory being lost. Play or watch the entire scene starting right before the boss fight and you can see that everything she told them that would happen happens
It might be a cool theory but it's made impossible by a fair few facts in the game (such as the lifespan of sorceresses for starters). And Ultimecia has such a stunning story if you buy into the 'unjust persecution' idea, which goes into a whole lot of detail on the timeline of VIII how Ultimecia's story is a pretty tragic fate. Definitely recommend it, especially if you just enjoy FFVIII's lore because it goes over a whole lot of the timeline and how everything transpires in the game very well before it goes into the theory side of things.
Lindzei personally manifests during Lightning's battle with Bhunivelze, transforming into a half of a twin scythe for him to wield, and is apparently destroyed during the battle.
finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lindzei
Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells before birth by Hojo (big villain) , he finds out bout it in goes against Shinra & decides to follow what Jenova was trying to do - find a new holy place by using the planet as a ship in destroy all others without Jenova cells.
Cloud threw Sephiroth into the life stream (cloud/zack then get infected by hojo), Sephiorth got struck in a crystal of materia but the Jenova cells in the life stream projected Sephiroth to follow his will (shadow/monster) which also effected Cloud to hand over the Black Materia in then Sephiroth was freed from the Materia.
The end story, Sephiroth / Jenova worked together - Hojo, Shinra is another evil group & in Cloud in co the rebel party, you take shinra down & they end up doing some good.
There are no heroes in FF12....My issue with that one was battle system, nothing of story.
complete opposite for me
Mileage will vary... xD
I enjoyed the battle system very much.
I sure didn't, so cumbersome and slow....FF7's was faster as is FF15's so I got used to that... >_>
digitalreframe you can change the battlespeed in the config menu. if you never changed that then yeah its slow xD
I think what makes FFXII so great is that there is no true villain (other than the Occuria) for the reasons as you stated. Vayne was after liberation from the Occuria and Ashe just wanted liberation from the Empire.
a few key points of FFVII you mentioned here I agree with, many people have argued with me over details here and there. one thing of which I have thought about is the fact that cloud has killed sephiroth, I don't believe that any encounter with him through the game other then the ending is a physical being- maybe a consciousness of him presented by jenova as each has resulted in a piece of jenova being a demi form. I feel like the plot hole is left because it leaves it to be interpreted by the player. we also know that when sephiroth died he was already some what apart of the life stream at one point and was creating is new physical body. we know this is a possibility because of advent children. they were born out of the life stream where his body rest.
Just pointing this out, most people forget the sub-plot of FF12, the rebellion of the Espers. That's actually an important element seeing as how that goes on to be the big plot point in FFT where the Espers became known as the Lucavi. So while they aren't the main plot point villains of FF12, to say they weren't villains in some regard I think is a bit of a disservice.
The lore of XIII is so dense and fantastic. I wish more people could get over the whole linearity thing and enjoy the game for what it is. Plus, it's got the best implimentation of ATB in any final fantasy game to date.
Did Jenova even have a consciousness? That is a pertinent question. Sephiroth didn't even start to change until he read about Project Jenova and connected that with what he was told was his mother's name. It begs the question of whether it was all a delusion on the account of Sephiroth becoming mentally unbalanced by the vicious confrontation of all that information and deluding himself into thinking a long-dead corpse was his mother. From there, his delusion could lead him to act on Jenova's cells within him to influence the cells within others. If her cells were capable of such a thing, he could will them to behave in whatever way he wished; should he learn how to bend them to his will. Given the storyline I remember, it is hard to definitively say that Jenova was more than a figment of Sephiroth's insanity. I'm not saying Sephiroth was the main villain. His actions were too reactionary for that. I think Hojo was the mastermind behind it since he is at the center of it all. Sephiroth is just the poor cudgel that was left to spiral in reaction to his surroundings.
Sephiroth's story reminds me a bit of Darth Vader, for some reason...
All that manipulation and "fall from grace" business...
Btw, that was the best explanation I've seen of the dynamic between Jenova and Sephiroth XD
I always thought in the beginning Sephiroth was a victim of Jenova and Hojo, he was injected with her cells when he was still in the womb, so who knows what kind of effect that had, taken from his mother, told his mother's name was Jenova who knows by who, raised by Shinra? Because Sephiroth says he doesn't have a hometown. Professor Gast and Sephiroth seemed to be very close he respected him more than Hojo. Saying "even doing this would never put you on the same field as professor gast." *(probably one of the reasons Hojo got mad enough to kill him and Ifalna) Even asking "Why didn't you say anything? Why did you die?" that line was always interesting to me because 1. it assumes that sephiroth and him had some kind of bond and that he was never told anything about Gast's murder by Hojo by anyone else not even the guards that were there. So Sephiroth had kinda been lied to his entire life. Then he finds out about all these experiments thinking himself a monster. Jenova I think used that, because at first Sephiroth is under the assumption that Jenova is a cetra and wants to take the planet back for her. Then later after the black materia comes into play Sephiroth wants to wound the planet enough that the lifestream comes in and he was going to absorb all of that to essentially become a god. Jenova I don't think cared either way as long as the planet was destroyed. So I was always confused, which was the real sephiroth, the one who cared about at least professor gast, and didn't want to be a monster, who thought that he was the last living cetra taking back the planet for them in some misguided attempt based on lies, or the power hungry planet destroyer we meet later.
Being a thief doesn't make you evil. Vaan was a thief because the Arcadians frequently stole from Rabanaster. "To take back what's ours." That was Vaan's reason for breaking into the palace. He also stole the gil purse off that Imperial after the ass stole fruit from a vendor and bullied him into 'giving' it to him. Vaan didn't steal from his own. Balthier and Fran weren't much different. Balthier saw his own father degrade into what looked like madness to him and abandoned the Judges and Arcadia. I don't know enough about Fran other than that she is romantically loyal to Balthier.
Ashe saw all of that on some level and people notice more than they think, even when they don't realize it, and act on what they see. Even after all she experienced, she still clung to what she was taught and sought to destroy the Suncryst and the deifacted nethicite in honor of her father's teachings to never use the nethicite "even should their need be dire".
Vayne was a manipulator. He had Basch's brother dress up as him to play Basch to Reks and gain the excuse to deny Dalmasca sovereignty. Playing the role of the noble conqueror is just a ploy to get the people on his side. It would be entirely different if the people knew he murdered their king for his own purposes. He killed his own father and had a loyal Judge lie about the dead Senator confessing to the murder. I suspect he even framed his late brothers just to goad the Senate into calling for their execution and, like a good "pawn", he killed them himself. He is no hero. A hero doesn't murder so many people merely as a means to an end; however noble that end happens to seem.
Thanks FFP for that :-) Funny I always adored Basche and Balthier but I never trusted or liked Ashe until the end, now I understand why...
Now will you please give us all the full investigative stories of FF 13 from beginning to end, dig in to all and each characters and explain they're plans, changes, disappearances and reappearances and what we didn't get to see, and how little Claire became a separate being under the guise of Lumina, cos I think there are lots of mysteries here including lots I don't even know (I bet), and confusion with time not just for me but lots of others. What's with the two Hopes I mean he grows up and he's a kid again...Time travel affect? And what did Snow do for Yussnan in the 500 yrs he lived there, being he changed and became Lord of the Feast Hall...changed from what? Did he build up Yussnan then? And how is it both he and Sahz lived for 500 yrs without being crystalized, I suspect that Chaos is the suspect behind Snow's longevity, so what's Sahz excuse lol?! questions, questions questions...
Years later, (I just happened across this video while I was doing more research on L'Cie for my FF D&D supplement) with Tabata gone, I don't think we'll ever see Type-Next unless Chiba takes up the reins. In that regard it would be amazing to finally see someone confront Lindzei since most people don't subscribe to the implied Bunhivelze is dead therefore Pulse, Diva, and Lindzei also died. ( I know I don't) and who would be better to be the one to take down Lindzei than Ace in the final Spiral as a L'Cie (Using the term loosely to imply that since he was chosen and resurrected by Suzaku Crystal and chosen by Dr Arecia to essentially be the Warrior of Light against Lindzei) Though I would pre-order the super deluxe version of Type-Next if it ever did happen because I'm just that big of a fan of the Fabula Nova Crystalis series.
I think Hojo is the real villain of FF7, he is the one who is responible for everything. And also all people who knew about this and didn't do anything, maybe even everyone who used Mako energy
I haven't finished Final Fantasy XII, but I can see what you mean about Vane. His brother, who I have a LOT of respect, even count as one of my favorite characters besides Balthier, is a very smart person. He also seems to be a very fair person too. So the fact that he had respect for his brother. Even believing that his brother had reasons for his actions, make me find truth in your theory. Now, as far as I got is a little past meeting Cid for the first time. But that still is enough time to get some impressions.
its quite clear to anyone with a rational understanding of the plot and the ideas the devs had that Jenova was indeed, the actual villain and Sephiroth was the vehicle.
the villain of 7 is Sephiroth, 13 is barthandalus... don't remember anything from 12 lol
I don't know about the FFXII part. I think Vayne and Cid were being held fools by that deity that in the end takes over Vane and controls him. Maybe they actually started out thinking they were doing something "for the greater good". But to behonest, many villains believe they are acting for the greater good, that doesn't make them less a villain. Ashe on the other side has seen her country invaded, her people slain, her husband and father murdered. And she seeks revenge, she wants to free the people of dalmasca. Vayne makes a speach in which he appears to be a good guy towards the people he invaded. But he shows his true nature soon enough. He is without mercy, what stands in his way has to be dealt with, that inclueds his little brother.
Ashe is not wanting to get her throne back to have power, she wants her country to be free once again.
Also even if she's full of anger in the beginning, the journey and her meeting with Larsa gives her perspective. She's not fighting agains Arcadia anymore, she's fighting against Vayne.
"Even if he was the nastiest, bloodful dictator of all time, mankind would be free."
In my opinion this opinion doesn't add up.
My guess is that the empire is that only the nobles could vote, that's a thing that happened in Imperial nations.
Venat is the main villain of FFXII; he made the empire aware of Nethicite as a superweapon.
I REALLY REALLY LOVE listening to your ff13 stories. 13 and 7 for me is the most vastly thought of final fantasy (havent played 15 tho). So deep and needs a lot of thinking afterwards. Ive tried replaying 13 but replayability of this game is really poor haha but hell the story keeps me thinking for long.
Great video Pez!!! Looking forward to the next one.
Isn't that we saw Lindzei and Pulse during the final battle? Bhunivelze summoned them as his weapons.
I thought it was pretty clear that Ashe was trying to stop the war between Empire and Rozzaria. If she didn't, it would take place in her homeland and it would be destroyed as collateral damage.
Also after playing crisis core, Genesis should get more villian credit for the whole series. He was the one who pointed Sephiroth in that direction that sent him down to the path to madness
Good f'ing vid, loving your detailed vids, im discussing this shit at work with my assistant manager on saturdays so thank you for fueling this.
The Final Fantasy Peasant that soundtrack opening at 21:56...Where can I find It please? Still looking since the first time I asked the question on your 'Final Fantasy Ending Explained' video.
About FFXII and King Raithwall:
Wasn't he one of the chosen kings of the Occuria? I would argue that the 400 years of peace he (technically) brought was thanks to the fear of destruction through Nethicite.
It's almost like being the only country with nuclear power in the world and forcing the rest into non-violence through fear, which sounds like the sort of thing the Occuria wanted...
Loved it man and I love the theory videos for fifteen
I just think ff12 is more complicated than Vayne vs the party. There's a physical war going on in Ivalice, and there's a war between spiritual being. Vayne saw himself as a God and didn't want to be hindered on his conquest by divine intervention. Also, the "gods" hadn't really done much to intervene in any scenarios until Ashe had to meet them because their kingdom was being overrun by Vayne and his lust for power.
Whether you think these people are being enslaved by thr gods or not, if Vayne were to win, he would enslave the people, and with the help of Venat could possibly become immortal himself so i think it's very touchy. I think it's the difference between doing something good with bad intentions vs doing something bad with good intentions and that's pretty much where Vayne and the party sit, respectively while both being used by Venat and the Occuria in their disputes, pretty much wanting power for themselves.
I always view it as Vayne and Venat being very similar in that they display themselves as being benevolent and having good intentions but behind the scenes they are just doing anything they can for power much like the relationship between Sephiroth and Jenova, but this is also why the ending of the game had the best possible outcome because Ashe was being tempted by the Occuria to take revenge and instead she decided not to but Reddas shattered the Sun-Cryst and thus the power the Occuria used to hold over the people was sundered. Venat and Vayne didn't stop there and both had to be destroyed in order to bring true peace to Ivalice without the Occuria imposing their will on the people any longer. Therefore everyone was being used as pawns in the games of the occuria, but ultimately it wasn't that Vayne or Ashe and Co alone won the day, but together they won for mankind since Venat used Vayne to get it that far, it's just Venat thought he could get away with it and rule with Vayne as his new Dynast king in the name of "freedom"
In XII Vayne wages war above Rabanatre at the end of the game, he doesn't care if it gets destroyed or not. Then when the resistance tries to surrender he refuses to accept and forces them to attack.
i'm kinda wishing that the FF7 remake goes further into JENOVA like where she came from and how she was born.
FF13 is the best Game of it's Franchise and you can't tell me that none of you wanted a piece of that Lightning.
My question is, If FF 'Type-Next' or ''Type-1' (or whatever name it might end up with) ever appears, would it be in the same 'world' as 'Type-0' or a new world, but still connected to F.N.C. ?
since you mentioned L' cie and brands i was wondering what you thought about the 2 types of them. Do you think the types apply to the 13 trilogy? and if so what type would the main cast be?
Well, Sephiroth wasn't a normal man.
He was filled with Jenova cells in the womb of Lucrecia, so her influence should be extremelly strong inside him, and remained dormant until Sephiorth searched about Jenova, that maybe triggered her influence to re-awaken in his mind and body.
Given how strongly influenced Archadia seems to be by the structure of the Roman Republic, I'd wager that only the nobles and upper classes get to vote. You even see going into Archadia that there's the slums and Archadia proper, and they are divided heavily by class and social status. It even becomes part of the gameplay for a bit while you're getting those ...thingies to get into progressively classier parts of the city. So they definitely have a very limited and restrictive democracy if even that, but that's still not enough to call Vayne the villain. Actually, I don't think the game had a real *big bad* like other FF games, which I found refreshing. There's many different conflicts going on that all play into each other.
I think that Jenova and Sephiroth are definitely more mutual partners than you'd think. Remember in Advent Children when the one guy puts part of Jenova in his body and suddenly he turns into Sephiroth, mind and memories and all? Obviously Sephiroth is at a bare minimum Jenova's "favorite". So he does get special treatment.
When you talk about thirteen I was actually interested then I remember playing the game, yeah no matter how good a salesmen you are I am not going back to that hot mess
I have this pet theory that all Final Fantasy games take place on the same planet over a span of eight years. That way, it shifts the theme from "epic adventure" to "Lovecraftian horror."
Yes do Type-0/Type-Next videos. Love that game. Can't wait for you to finally play Tactics and do videos about how amazing that game is. Oh and that soundtrack.
I'd say the main vilain of ffvii is actually Hojo, Jenova is more of a parasite (awfully evil based on our standards of course) but it mostly *functions* according to its nature than really plans to me. Sephiroth and Jenova being indissociable after they united in the life stream really, one serving each other and living the same ambition .
Hojo however uses this specimen and everyone he gets his hands on to fulfill his twisted ambitions, he's the real cause of the planet's tragedies at some point of the story , Jenova is a means to an end for him even if he does not really control it.
The fact he's human without genetic modifications (at least before you finally meet him at the end of disc 2) that set aside any kind of ethic makes him top the other vilains
That was a great explanation of XIII - I actually hated that game but you really made me want to revisit it and take a deeper dive.
Ashe never wanted help, she only accepted that Balthier and Vanne wouldn't let her go on alone.