In this conversation, Michelle asks Jim, “Do you see a reason that believing that Joseph Smith started polygamy and the Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger stories would be less destructive to faith than believing Brigham Young got some things wrong?” My answer to her question is that believing that Brigham Young got some things wrong along with the fact that the church continues to present a false narrative as true causes a person to ask what other false traditions are being presented by the church as true but are not. What Jim termed a “trust crisis” of the church is truly what happens. It is difficult to have a healthy working relationship with someone/something you do not trust. When I presented the idea that polygamy was not of God and that Joseph Smith never practiced it to a close friend, she did a little research on the gospel library app and said it was clear as day that I was wrong and terminated her relationship with me. We are culturally conditioned as members of the church that if we read or consider anything that is contrary to what the church teaches we are putting our eternal salvation at risk. It is so ironic that our religion began with a young man seeking wisdom from God and that we are repeatedly taught in the scriptures that,” every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened,” (3 Nephi 14:7-8). God wants us to discover truth; church leaders encourage us to not question what they have presented to us as truth. I believe the church’s “glorious beauty is a fading flower, " (Isaiah 28:1).
@@michellerowell4947 Thank you for this comment. I honestly feel so validated that you actually heard and responded to the question I asked. That was the question I asked when the direction went completely political -- which I honestly found shocking and horrifying. I spent quite a while beating myself up, thinking I had taken the conversation that direction, or wondering what I had said that might have pushed it that way. Having you so clearly demonstrate that you heard and understood the question, and that it was a valid and worthwhile question helps me feel a lot better. 🙂❤️
@@MichelleBStone I am so happy you read and responded to my comment!! It was unfortunate that the conversation went political, but you handled it so well. The conversation illustrated to me why being open to being wrong is so important to finding truth as the "facts" we believe may be founded on misinterpreted information. I went on to listen to Jim’s podcast where he interviewed you and loved that you were able to articulate your journey and your findings so freely. Both Ian and Jim seemed truly interested in understanding your perspective. I loved your emphasis at the end that polygamy is not of God and Ian’s proclamation that he has never believed polygamy is of God. As a woman, knowing that God holds polygamy to be an abomination in all circumstances is worth the pain and struggle I have experienced learning that the church is not what I believed it to be. I am not seeking to be comfortable, I am seeking for truth. Thank-you, thank-you for your hours and hours of research to find truth. Your work is truly appreciated by me.
@@MichelleBStone you got pretty defensive when he started orienting the conversation over "facts" versus "opinion." Jim might see the world differently than you, but the point he was trying to make wasn't whether he was right and you were wrong. He was trying to make a point about "facts" being the sticking point, and for you to engage on something that's just "opinion" is disingenuous. You _are_ trying to establish a fact around the circumstances of Joseph's life and polygamy, and the election-as a point of radical differences of understanding-is actually a good measuring stick for just how radically different people's views on FACTS can be.
Frankly, sometimes you get a little patronizing when someone "hasn't done as much research as you have." The condescension, in particular, is dangerous territory.
Jim forgot it was himself that brought his hurt feelings of the election results into the discussion. This interview was exhausting to listen to. Some people are just wired differently and set in their ways. So proud of you Michelle for standing up for yourself and being patient with Jim.
Michelle, you handled this episode with master-class. I love so much how you handled this without cow-towing. You stuck to your principles, and was ever so professional. I literally stopped this several times and thanked the Lord for people like you. You are absolutely amazing.
Jim is convinced. Case closed! 🤦🏼♀️ Jim is exhausted, until he can bring it back around to Trump. Why Trump even needed to be a part of this conversation is beyond me… Jim’s body language and dismissal says it all. Not an ounce of humility or curiosity in him.
Cognitive dissonance can take its toll on a person. He’d realizing the facts he holds so dearly are actually alternative facts. He believes the mainstream media has been telling the truth.
Wow! I was nervous when I saw Jim Bennett on here, and I almost quit watching multiple times. The contradiction and hypocrisy were too much at times. The last few minutes were worth it. Well done, Michelle!
@@jimbennett6431 I know right! Imagine my thinking you might turn this episode of the podcast into a bitter political diatribe! Whoo! Thank goodness we avoided that! But don’t waste your breath-You and I don’t share a common set of facts. ✌🏻
Learning that some things I once knew beyond a shadow of a doubt are now doubtful, has taught me to be wary of “facts”. You handled this challenging conversation beautifully Michelle. Of course, I preferred listening to the episode with Jim and Ian. That was less stressful.
Michelle, Thanks for this discussion. I had to break up my viewing of this episode because the good gentleman's arguments were specious and ill informed, and circular. He kept asserting his "facts" should be undisputable but could never cite his sources from which he draws his conclusions. His reliance on his experts and not on his own research is typical of someone who has never done original research or challenged the current narrative. So, sadly the discussion on his part was tedious. He appears a nice guy who thinks himself a broad-minded person who is very secure in his opinions. Lastly, his understanding of what fascism is and who are fascists is not even at a third grader's level. He came to a butt-kicking contest with one leg. Sad. Again, thanks Michelle. You are doing great work.
...and his "facts" that was his hill to die on was that Biden won the 2020 election (WOW) and there are zero cases of people eating pets. Both can be somehow proven with 100% certainty.
Jim Bennett totally went off the rails with his “political facts “ conversation, which lessened respect towards any argument he was trying to make from then on. He probably believes everything that CNN tells him too. He probably lives in an upscale neighborhood with others that more than likely are out of touch with the true reality of 95% of the population & their experiences (objective observations & circumstances ). He lost credibility when he started bringing up lame politics and putting people unfairly into a negative category based on team Democrat vs team Republican. It is sad when people honestly think that 1 man can make or break the United States. There is a system of checks and balances, not a knight in shining armor. It takes “We the people” to make positive changes. The Left have become the party of “the science has been settled, don’t question the science (aka the narrative), “ but true science is never settled, it should always be questioned, tested and proven.
Bless you Michelle for your patience as he was unaware of his hypocrisy and blind spots. One of the very reasons we are here on earth is to learn charity. The foundation of charity is learning how to see another perspective and hold space for people even when we don’t agree. If someone says the sky is green, be humble and curious to understand how they got to that conclusion. Then you might come to find out something you didn’t understand before even if you still disagree. Anger and harsh judgement dissipates when we understand one another. Like you said, our most difficult child teaches us this lesson the most. I’m so grateful for mine who has held my feet to the fire to which I’ve grown and become a better person.
For Jim to talk about FACTS, like he knows them all, concerns me about his judgements about what facts he is talking about. Look at all the things DJT was accused of by his side, and proven false!!!! For him to not listen to all sides tells me all I need to know
Michelle you are spot on. You were illustrating to him that if we just accept the science and the experts, it takes away all our responsibility to be critical thinkers. His arguments are exhausting to me, beyond measure!!!
Jim moved the conversation to politics because he knew he had nothing substantive to offer about the conversation Michelle was seeking. Jim turns a blind eye to Biden/Harris is a way that is just completely dishonest. He needs to cancel his subscription to HuffPost and read more widely.
Michelle! 🎉 Remarkable! 🎉 Well done! 🎉 Admirable! 🎉 It was a joy to watch you engage so politely and kindly. That takes a lot of spiritual muscle! I noticed how easily he became exhausted. Not a lot of muscle.😂 We are all having these types of discussions and this was a perfect example of "how to". I was disappointed that your guest showed little to no intellectual/spiritual curiosity about your point of view, no willingness to learn or understand. His main point seemed to be "You're a heretic, but you can still be in the church and, no, I don't want to hear you out, I'm too tired."😂😂😂.
I love jim Bennett and align with him politically and I really appreciate you having people on this channel that you disagree with on certain issues. I feel like a unicorn in this monogamy-affirming space because I am a “progressive” and they tend to be very closed minded to the idea that Joseph didn’t practice polygamy, and I find many monogamy-affirming people to be conservative or libertarian and I find my views and opinions clash with them politically. So I find myself not feeling like I belong here but I want to be here because I don’t believe polygamy is of god. So thank you for having someone on your show that you don’t necessarily agree with. We need examples of these types of discussions. Thank you!
I disagree with both Michelle and Jim. If Brigham Young claimed god commanded polygamy and racial preferences at times, that makes him a false prophet, period. Full Stop! There is no 'baby' being thrown out with the bathwater.
I really like the viewpoint that the main body of the church appointed Brigham as their prophet by following him. He had priesthood keys because he was the president of the Quorum of the 12. God allows his children agency even when they choose kings contrary to what God instructs… he allows us to learn sometimes the hard way… false prophet? Nah, he said himself “he is not a prophet like Joseph or Daniel, he is more of a yankee guesser.” 😂 God works within men’s weaknesses. Corse corrections have been made since Brigham and will continue to be made because we have fallible prophets and leaders. We don’t have to freak out and we can take courage because we have been promised “…no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing…”. It’s an exciting time to be a member of the church!
@@tls9382 Problem is the church has never completely 'course corrected',. No current 'prophets' have even admitted polygamy or racial preferences were wrong. They just claim it was a 'temporary commandment' and most members still believe nonsense like an actual perfect loving God commanded old men and multiple's of young girl polygamy and God turned people's skin dark because of their iniquity at least some times. Fix that and maybe it might actually be 'an exciting time to be a member'. However for now, for me, the answer is the opposite.
Exactly. Now Jim Bennet understands how others felt when Obama was in office. No one asked Jim, "Is it a fact that Barack Obama declared this is no longer a Christian nation? Is it a fact that Kamala Harris said she would restore "reproductive freedom" nationwide?
Jim Bennet has been the biggest disappointment of all the online LDS voices. He’s deeply suffering from TDS and unfortunate logic has gone completely out the door with him. I hope he finds his way back to common sense.
@@whyisgamora3721 just because he has TDS and is delusional/wrong (in my opinion) politically, does NOT mean he’s wrong always. He did a great job here. I hope he doesn’t see this, I would hate for him to know I agree with him on something hahaha!!
Most people seem to vote for the person. Why don't people vote for the platform! We live in a two-party system! So if I cast a vote for a third party, I am wasting my vote IMO! We have two platforms, the republican platform and the democrat platform. If you look at the platforms it is obvious to me who we should vote for! We should vote for the "life of the unborn."
We DO NOT have to say or believe that Joseph Smith was as horrible as the church narrative says he is in order to do away with Prophet infallibility! He can still be super awesome and not have to keep Prophet infallibility! I'm so frustrated with this viewpoint.
Prophet infallibility was another of Brigham’s inventions. Feb. 23, 1862 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 9:289 “The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as [they are] capable of doing so.”
Wow, Michelle. First of all, props for navigating and handling this conversation so well. Your communication skills are remarkable and you're a much better person than I would be conversing with Jim. He is the type of person who is solely controlled by "authoritative sources" and then looks for ways to be validated. At the end of the day, what he believes as "fact", is still someone else's opinion that he chooses to believe in because validation is comfortable. I hope he's able to drop the pride and arrogance and become more open minded in the future.
Yeah, that was an adventure. The gradual corruption of once-trusted institutions and sources is, in my view, part of the reason for today's phenomenon of people watching the same movie screen but seeing two different movies. It's disappointing that anyone would find it "exhausting" to explore why people see things differently, or why they see different things.
Well, he's correct that it wasn't Muslims dancing on rooftops on 9-11. They were Israelis. Personally, I couldn't vote for either of the main candidates so I went with the libertarian candidate, as that platform more closely aligns to my political beliefs, even though I knew he didn't stand a chance. Even if I'm not sure I'll appreciate an interview you put out, I always do learn something, thank you for your time in providing this channel❤❤
I disagree with Jim about whether or not we should engage in disagreement about the facts. He rightly believes that the facts should be fundamental because how can you discuss matters of opinion if there are not an agreement about facts. But we live in a world that disagrees about the facts. And, the more I look into it, the more both sets of facts are "verifiable". its really ridiculous how non-factual basically everything is, and no one agrees with facts. I believe it is because the system itself wants us in different camps so that we can argue rather than solve problems, and the only way out of it is to engage with misunderstanding of facts.
You are correct. I was invited to have a conversation about whether differing points of view are welcome in the church, not to debate whether or not JS was a polygamist.
You mentioned you would have a problem if Michelle was advocating for adultery.. I agree, that would be a problem. It strikes me as ironic because as I see it, the question of whether polygamy is of God or not seems to basically ask the question of whether or not God sometimes authorizes adultery as being a good and righteous thing. It seems to me that the problems inherent with adultery don’t just go away if someone says it’s “authorized” or if all those involved in sexual relations with one another get legally married. In my current paradigm it seems disingenuous to have a problem with adultery but at the same time hold space for polygamy to be of God somehow.. though I used to hold that perspective, so I don’t fault anyone for thinking that way. But these thoughts are among the things to be grappled with in this space…
I had the same. Thought. It is hard to see the genuine difference between adultery and "authorized" adultery, simply because it is labeled plural marriage.
This made me think of the quote “humility is the key to wisdom”. He was so sure that he had all the facts and his facts were the correct facts that it made me actually feel sorry for him because that mindset is going to keep him from learning and gaining wisdom. I can’t recall when I last observed someone so close minded and sure of themselves. Poor guy. One of the things I like about your show and you is that you’re always open to learning and the possibility that you could learn something new that could bring you more wisdom. Keep on keeping on.
@@dl1130 Repent? You mean, stop the supposed sin, and change course, while giving grace to all involved? If the church hasn’t repented (even though I don’t believe it’s got anything to repent for regarding plural marriage) then what else do you want?
Here is a fact, Jim. The church never taught over the pulpit, teaching manuals, etc. Joseph was a polygamist. He had but one wife, Emma. It wasn't until the Gospel Topic Essays that they changed their teaching. This problem is because of the church. It's not the members' fault as the church and the apologists attempt to place blame.
Agreed.🫡! I was sooo lost when it came out. That’s when I went completely inactive and joined the Irish union Protestant army and realized Brigham was the pope and Nelson was the head of the IRA. Figuratively of course. It was Time to be a MormonProteatant! I could feel the call!!
"....The revelation (so called) authorized certain men to have more wives than one at a time, in this world and in the world to come. It said this was the law, and commanded Joseph to enter into the law.-And also that he should administer to others. Several other items were in the revelation, supporting the above doctrines." -William Law the First President of the LDS
@@whatsup3270 hello friend. Respectfully, you must be new here. I suggest taking a look at Michelle’s videos from the start and going through them. You’ll come to find this quote was, and many others supposedly given to equate Joseph with Polygamy (whether outwardly or secret) is not a reliable source. It was given many years after Joseph was killed and history was changed and rewritten by men like this. 😊
This man’s hubris is shocking. How does he live in this world? I seriously cannot believe he openly admitted that he’s basing his beliefs on what the “experts” have said 😳😂🤦🏼♀️.
I hope you recognize that it’s equally painful for us on the other side. And I’m not speaking as someone who doesn’t understand your side. I’ve had hours and hours of conversations since 2020 with people who voted for trump then and voted for trump this time including all kinds of tangents. I have found that at the end of the day, we believe a different set of facts and trust different sources. And there is no way for either side to prove that they are correct. So go ahead and say it’s painful for you to watch. I hope you will believe that it’s also painful for us. 🙏🏻
The ignorance in an argument like Jim's is claiming that people don't share common ground on factual data. The truth is that we all share facts, but the ignorance is focusing on the separations. When we get down to basic truths like the color of the sky, we can all observe personally and share that truth. However, there are still alternate realities for some whose eyes do not function the same way and therefore see a different color of sky. Additionally, the color of the sky is not consistent. It changes from black to blue to gray to orange. That doesn't change the reality for the people who see it most commonly, but the truth is that there is a sky that we can all observe. The ignorance in saying there is no point in engaging with people who don't share common facts is dismissing the multitude of common facts that are shared and focusing on just a few minuscule points of data that are seen differently. It's like refusing to talk about constellations because you see a grouping of stars making one shape, and another person sees a grouping of stars split into two different shapes, or whatever it may be. You live in alternate realities because you see different shapes of the stars and therefore refuse to discuss the shapes that you see. In the end, you aren't even seeing all the stars anyway, so what does any of our perspective really matter? Let's just be good to each other and follow the example of Christ. We need to be longsuffering and patient and engage. There's no sense in dismissing any opportunity to engage, especially if you think that you have a truth that the other does not. I am sorrowed to hear Jim say an opinion like that, when I personally have engaged with many who live in alternate realities because of their different perspective. I can say that I have grown more in understanding and proximity to Christ by engaging and not refusing because I dismiss their reality as being a hoax. I would actually say that concerning the sky during a sunny day, it is not blue. It is everything but blue. It absorbs all of the color of light that is not the color that we see. It rejects the color that we see, therefore we perceive it to be blue when in reality it is everything but blue.
I was thinking about that tonight as I watched the sunset, how funny it is that the example he used as the most clear and obvious fact of all is observably not, in fact, what he stated. I really enjoy listening to Jim Bennett and find him to be very likable, I just don’t think any of divisions that this world tries to set up for us are worth tossing aside the love we are invited to experience together in Christ.
1:30:18 - sorry Jim, all the lights are actually the same colour. But there are coloured coverings that give the light the appearance of being red or green or amber. But the light source is the same. This nuance is what Michelle is referring to and is essential to find out truth.
@@MommaCrissa truth is not relative. But is it. Truth is only relative to the perspective. We have to make sense of our world. But at some point there needs to be radical acceptance for change and and reconciliation to actual truth. I have felt the spirit comfort me about a job thought it was telling me I’d get. But did not get the job. I have been to the temple and felt the spirit but then gone at the veil and the celestial room the spirit all but vanished on more than one occasion. Mainly the salt lake temple-the finest of sanctuaries. What does it all mean? I prefer the sound doctrine of scripture. We know of baptisms for the dead in sacred spaces. But down the hall in each temple , to my truth, is a Masonic lodge of endowment. Most would fight me tooth and nail on this. But where is the endowment in scripture? No place. The Book of Mormon teaches us how to baptize. But what of the rest? Inventions of men to enforce compliance.
@@TheOGProtestantMormon idad, i still haven't finished this but will. However, last night I watched a video that I felt brought more truth about what God wants and who God is than anything in the church. There were more moments of burning of the Holy Ghost than any temple or sacrament meeting. We need to be talking about God more than we ever knew in my opinion. Bringing heaven to earth. If you want to watch it too, it is called
You're final perspective, Michelle was perfectly worded about how to hang on to truth and throw out the dross, or as you said to keep as much of the proverbial baby as possible. Our testimony CANNOT be based on a person or (prophets). We DON'T have to let naysayers separate us from the gospel of Jesus Christ. Naysayers are such "all or nothing" types. We can believe in the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and all the teachings in the Book of Mormon without acknowledging any of the fallen teachings of leaders when they speak as a man. Everyone can be a prophet. Everyone can receive revelation. If a church leader speaks for the Lord we can know for ourselves through PERSONAL revelation that he speaks the truth. When the same leader speaks from his fallible self and his limited mortal perception we can also know he is not speaking for the Lord. We are not drones required to follow every little opinion of a prophet. We are children of a loving God who loves us and fully expects us to use our God given gifts and talents to think for ourselves and determine what is truth and error.
I’ve never been LDS. I don’t intend to be LDS. But if I were to be LDS I’d be the Jim Bennett type. He represents the version of a faith that I think is healthy. He believes in breaking down the Us vs Them mindset, embracing differences, and showing empathy towards others with differing points of view. Lastly, I did vote for his dad who I considered one of the few honest, decent politicians.
I agree. I wonder if you found it as interesting as I did how different his approach appeared to be in regard to politics than it is in regard to religion.
@ I’m not sure I can answer your question. But I’m just so disappointed in our political climate. We literally had to suspend any political discussion in our household as it inevitably turned into loud voices and even shouting. We also stopped watching the news. Religion is also touchy as we have differing opinions. Sadly calm dialogue is near extinction. To be honest I do find myself regrettably falling into the passionate side of sports (Go Utes). But I usually find more civility (not always) in sports.
Ha ha ha, JB the great uniter! He lambasted Jordan Peterson, one of the current most enlightening speakers who has influenced 100s of thousands to stop defeating habits ruining their lives. Personally attacking a contemporary icon who empirically improves society just because you disagree w his politics does opposite of unite. By just accusing the othersides leaders being the problem and not your own and claim you want healing falls flat.
2:09:00 ish 😮 What? It's like he doesn't even care about studying scripture. Who cares about how early Church members perceived its meaning. The point is what does it actually mean.
@@frankcastle5513, as per the interpretation of 2 Nephi 5:21, with a handful of modern exceptions, “early Church members” encompasses pretty much every Church member from 1830 until now.
@@jimbennett6431 False traditions abound. How often are "...the humble followers of Christ...led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men." I suppose such a misinterpretation that persisted for generations (and frankly I know people today, with whom it still persists) is an example of why we are still under condemnation for taking lightly the covenant of the Book of Mormon.
It does not require that Joseph Smith is infallible to say that he never fell into the trap of Polygamy. It may be feel that way to some tp, and validating ANYONE'S feelings but that does not mean that their feelings mesh with reality.
Well, while this talk was interesting, I felt like the interview that happened on their podcast was much much better and productive. That episode on Jim’s podcast with Michelle was glorious. This one… mmm.. not my cup of tea. I deeply deeply respect Jim and his work, and generally agree on him on so many aspects, but when he gets talking about politics, my eyes glaze over. That’s not to say that his view is incorrect, it’s just, I’m already bombarded by politics everywhere I go, and I come to these type of podcasts to get away from that. Regardless, I still appreciate him coming on, and also agreeing with the fact that there is a conversation to be had here, and that just because there are members of the church that question the historical record of polygamy, does not mean we need to be kicked out. So I suppose, in essence, this episode was a net positive.
@@wyatttroychristensen1474 , I agree that the second discussion we had was more productive than this one. The focus of the second was to let Michelle tell her story and make her case, not to debate. I don’t ever think debates on Church issues accomplish anything. The idea here was to discuss how we handle and accept differing ideas in the Church. Needless to say, I was not expecting a debate about polygamy.
@@jimbennett6431totally understandable. Regardless, I still really really appreciate you coming on this podcast and letting Michelle come on yours. Also, I just wanted to say 2 other things: 1. I meant it when I said that I respect you. I have listened to every podcast episode of Inside Out and listened to your appearances on other people’s podcasts as well. You single handedly changed my entire perspective on LGBTQ issues and I will always be grateful for that. 2. I know that this election has been really hard for you, and I just wanted to say I’m sorry, and I feel for you. I may not fully understand all of the intricacies of why you feel the way you do, but I can tell it hurts, and I have nothing but empathy for you. You’re a really good man, Jim. And you have helped me more than I can ever explain, so hopefully this small little comment can help you 🫡
@@jimbennett6431BTW, you're a documents person. Look at the opening business of the Constitution Article 2 (Executive). It's the Electoral College. Then look at the 12th amendment, it's whole business is Electoral College. Then find the copies of the fake electoral slates that Trump and his team of seditionists created to submit and confuse the vote count - this is what was supposed to give Pence cover to declare he couldn't tell which slates were legitimate. Then you can go find something better than the docs, as there's actual video. They filmed the fake signing ceremonies. There are many interviews with the fake electorates claiming they were dupped into signing the fake slates. Someone who would perform this kind of attack on the Constitution cannot be taken seriously when he swears to uphold and protect it. It's all in the docs. Check em out. LDS are supposed to protect the Constitution.
@@jimbennett6431 BTW, we met at usu when you stood in to debate for your dad against Lee. I used to work there. I really made a mistake not voting for your dad that year. Especially after I saw on the court docket that Lee introduced Sydney Powell to Trump, I have so many regrets... It's interesting to see you and me, lifelong conservatives, end up in the same place on him.
At the 48:33 mark. I do understand and agree with what you are saying up to a point. However, there is a difference between genuine seeking of truth and questioning beliefs vs. open opposition to faith. 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Opposition as a gift! Yeah, that's what Lehi tells his son in the first part of the Book of Mormon, there has to be an opposition in all things, and yes, opposition in marriage is a NECESSITY, that's why gender identity is such a threat to family!
This started out so good. Too bad it got bogged down in political differences. For those who are “hating on Jim,” I think you should watch his own podcast that Michelle links here, which they recorded the next day. It was a great conversation and platform, and I think it shows Jim’s magnanimity - that he treated Michelle with such respect and open-mindedness on his podcast, even after this conversation. I completely understand where Jim is coming from, as I tend to see many things similarly to Jim on politics, and see things similarly to Michelle re: polygamy. Michelle, I’ve noticed that many of your listeners have similar political views to you. However, the people who really need to take you/your arguments seriously in order to help get the “accepted historical narrative” revisited for real (and not just in small corners of the Internet) are the kinds of people who have no patience with the kinds of unfounded falsehoods, poor logic and conspiratorial thinking they see happening in much of DJT-land. The last thing you want is for people to label your work on polygamy as being the same caliber of arguments they’ve seen in the public square. You really are a good person, Michelle. And you are a complex thinker, and you’ve done a lot of good work on this polygamy topic. I just can’t wrap my mind around your support of DJT, especially given that I see so many parallels between BY and DJT. (But maybe that in itself is a parallel to the many good, smart people who followed/went along with BY, 😉.). Tbh, both scenarios convince me all the more that my personal turning to Christ, and hopefully many others doing the same, is the only thing that’s going to help us all get through this together. ❤️
Thank you so much for this comment. I appreciate your thoughtful approach. I agree that the conversation the next day (released on his podcast) was MUCH better. I wasn't sure I was going to release this one at all, but I hoped it would still be worthwhile. And to the political question, to be perfectly honest, I have been so busy with research that I have not paid close attention to this election cycle. But, to try to answer the question of why I voted the way I did, I will say that my priorities have been around issues like the borders and wars. Those are huge concerns to me, and I have been very unhappy with how they have been handled. While there are plenty of things I don't like about Trump (including his pushing the latest shots and claiming credit for them) I do appreciate that he is the only president in my lifetime who has not engaged in foreign wars. I thought we made huge strides internationally when he was president. And the border issue has been horrifying. I don't know if you have much use for Brett Weinstein, but hearing him talk about the Darien Gap is horrifying. That is just one example. And I have LONG been deeply concerned and frustrated about the corruption of America's food supply and how unbelievably difficult it is to even try to provide a healthy diet for any of my children, but particularly my son with a serious rheumatoid condition. I HATE what seems to be infinite corruption in the political sphere, especially on the international stage. Because of RFK jr's willingness to take extremely unpopular stances on issues I care about, I am daring to believe that perhaps he may not be subject to the same kind of corruption. I have been deeply concerned about the direction "the left" (I hate using these terms) has been taking our country. I feel deep relief that we are having a change in the whitehouse. While I know many people are feeling the opposite, I am daring to have a little bit of hope for our country. There is much more I would say in a full conversation, but I hope that gives at least a partial understanding.
@MichelleBStone, I do appreciate that you do not love DJT; I have family and friends who think he is an instrument of God, etc. It’s tough. I also appreciate your long response. I don’t intend to get into a long back and forth on politics with you. I too favor peace over war. However, I fail to see how a person who engages in more “personal wars” on a daily basis than anyone I’ve ever seen lead our country, and someone who admires autocrats and dictators is an agent of peace. As for immigration, I’ve spent a fair amount of time on this topic in real life, and from what I see, not only did DJT lie about the topic and use it for fearmongering way out of proportion, but his solution will not solve the problem. His wall -now coupled with deploying the military throughout our country for mass deportation - is more akin to what we see in totalitarian regimes. I have never seen him speak intelligently about real solutions. We haven’t updated our immigration laws for 50 years (last reform of any consequence was over 30 years ago). That is at the root of our problem. We need to reform our immigration laws. As for health, I fear it will be a one step forward, two steps back sort of thing, But my biggest concern is DJT’s complete disrespect and disregard for the Constitution. He seems much more interested in personal benefit and amassing power for particular people and groups than in creating a country that can work for all in our diverse population (liberty and equality). I just hope we can all stay focused on promoting goodness and truth, as we understand it, and don’t turn on each other.
@@txc-yw2ou This was articulated so well. Thank you for replying to her. I feel like a unicorn in this space. I lean left (a never-trumper) so I don't fit with the political views of many in this space but most progessives dismiss the kind of content michelle is providing too quickly. I find both sides frustrating for different reasons. Anyway, it's nice to know there are other people who follow Michelle who view things similarly politically. I don't always want to be in an echo chamber, but it's also hard to always feel like the odd-woman-out.
@mariheward, yes, it’s a shame that there isn’t more diversity in this movement skeptical of the polygamy narrative, and it’s a shame that more people on the less “conservative” side won’t pay attention to this viewpoint in the polygamy debate. I’m glad you’re here, too.
Good job holding your own on this one !! His unwillingness to look at the evidence both in polygamy and about Trump is unfortunate for him. It's lazy in my opinion. Maybe you planted a seed for him.
I sense that jim was not blaming but is dealing with a personal faith crisis. There are times i want to argue just for the sake of arguing, but I'm suffering from something personal, and i dump it on the person I'm arguing with. He conflicted himself many times in this podcast. I see that i need to clean up with my daughter, whom i argued with, and stop doing that.
@jimbennett6431 i don't think it was your intent to dump on Michelle. In your interaction with her, what happened is what's called a "crystallization of evil," which is not a bad thing. It's an opportunity to look at something that is and was a blindspot to you before the interaction with Michelle. I would venture to say that what happened with Michelle happens everywhere in your life. It is something which i call machinery that is running the show. The impact of engaging with that machinery is exhaustion. Which was evident to watch as your interaction with Michelle progressed. It wasn't engaging in the conversation that was exhausting but engaging with the machinery, which always shows fruits antithetical to the Spirt. It's not the people who voted for Trump that's exhausting you, it's your justification to allow yourself to be your machinery one more time. The cost of engagement with machinery is loss of love, affinity, peace, power, and full self expression. The payoff of engaging as machinery is that you get to be right, and you're justified in dominating and avoiding domination. You turn into a combatant who will win while the other loses. The way out is to expose the machinery for what it is; get present to the impact that the machinery has on yourself and others; be willing to engage authentically and responsibly until edification is present: where both parties are edifified and a new way of being becomes possible that wasn't available before.
Jim is spot on about the primary and secondary questions. Resolving the secondary questions is essential to coming to conclusions on the primary questions. My scenario was similar to what was said, I had much more of a trust crisis than a faith crisis, and although I’m active I still struggle to trust the church as an organization.
Jim I really liked what you said about politics. What you said about whether someone thinks they voted for a fascist or not, they are still voting for a fascist. I 100% agree with you on that and have said similar things. I know you’re not interested in hearing Joseph out on the topic of polygamy, but I’m going to post the sources that I have in hopes that you have an open enough mind to take a look at what Joseph ACTUALLY did and said. If you don’t, that’s on you and proves your closed mindedness, but I don’t think that you actually are closed minded and think you are a fair enough person to take a look at even just a few of our beloved prophets words. Much love.
May 1837 - Latter Day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate (Kirtland, Ohio), May 1837, page 511. The May 1837 issue of the Messenger and Advocate contained a warning from the presidents of seventies meeting held 28 April 1837 that "we will have no fellowship whatever with any Elder belonging to the quorum of the Seventies who is guilty of polygamy or any offense of the kind."
29 November 1837 - Kirtland Elder’s Quorum Record, 1836-1841, edited by Lyndon W. Cook and Milton V. Backman, Jr. (Provo, Utah: Grandin Book Company, 1985), 35. “the charge that was preferred before the quorum against Elder Sollomon [sic] Freeman by William Perry for the crime of polygamy was brought forward. Elder Freeman plead not gilty of the charge [.] [T]estimony for the Complainent came forward (Dexter Stilman) and Stated the Elder Freeman had a wife in Tollan township Co. of Berksheir in Mass. And it was told him there that he (E. Freeman) Came a way [without his] wife Elder Harlow Redfield Stated that when he and Elder Stilman went to See Elder Freeman. Elder Freeman ackno[w]loged that he come away and left his wife as was testified Elder Freeman ackno[w]loged before the quorum that he had left his first wife came away with and Soon Commenced living with another woman he further Stated he did not know but his first wife was yet living he further Stated he would not go acros [sic] the room to obtain a bill from her Elder Freeman Manifest a Car[e]less indifferent spirit.”
July 1838 - [Editorial,] Elder’s Journal, 1 (July 1838), 43. "Question 7th. Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one. [sic] Answer. No, not at the same time. But they believe that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again. But we do disapprove of the custom which has gained in the world, and has been practised [sic] among us; to our great mortification, of marrying in five or six weeks, or even in two or three months after the death of their companion. We believe that due respect ought to be had, to the memory of the dead, and the feelings of both friends and children." 7: 1838 Dec 16 - Joseph Smith, Liberty, Missouri to Saints in Caldwell County, Missouri, December 16, 1838, published in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2002), 419-20. “We say again unto you we are innocent of these things they have represented us falsely Was it for committing adultery, we are aware that false slander has gone abroad for it has been reiterated in our ears. These are falsehoods also. Renegadoes, mormon dissenters are running through the world and spreading various foul and libelous reports against us thinking thereby to gain the friendship of the world because they knew that we are not of the world and that the world hates us; therefore they make a tool of these fellows...We have heard that it has been reported by some that some of us should have said that we not only dedicated our property but our families also to the Lord, and satan taking advantage of this has transfigured it into lasciviousness such as a community of wives which is an abomination in the sight of God. When we consecrate our property to the Lord it is to administer to the wants of the poor and needy for this is the law of God it is not for the purpose of the rich those who have no need and when a man consecrates or dedicates his wife and children he does not give them to his brother or to his neighbor for there is no such law for the law of God is thou shalt not commit adultery thou shalt not covet they neighbor’s wife. He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in his heart...”
April 1840 - While the prophet Joseph was in Liberty Jail reports were circulated that the imprisoned Church leaders were polygamist. Joseph responded in a letter that was printed in the Times and Seasons, April 1840. Know assuredly Dear brethren, that it is for the testimony of Jesus, that we are in bonds and in prison.... Was it for committing adultery? We are aware that false and slanderous reports have gone abroad, which have reached our ears, respecting this thing, which have been started by renagadoes, and spread by the dissenters, who are extremely active in spreading foul and libilous reports concerning us; thinking thereby to gain the fellowship of the world.... Some have reported that we not only dedicated our property, but likewise our families to the Lord, and Satan taking advantage of this has transfigured it into lasciviousness, a community of wives [polygamy], which things are an abomination in the sight of God. When we consecrate our property to the Lord, it is to administer to the wants of the poor and needy according to the laws of God, and when a man consecrates or dedecates his wife and children to the Lord, he does not give them to his brother or to his neighbor; which is contrary to the law of God, which says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife." "He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in his heart."Now for a man to consecrate his property, his wife and children to the Lord is nothing more nor less than to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the widows and fatherless, the sick and afflicted; and do all he can to administer to their relief in their afflictions, and for himself and his house to serve the Lord. In order to do this he and all his house must be virtuous and shun every appearance of evil. Now if any person, has represented any thing otherwise than what we now write they have willfully misrepresented us. (Times and Seasons 1 [April 1840]: 82-85)
15 October 1841 - An “Intelligent” Non-Mormon, “The Mormons,” reprinted in the Times and Seasons, 2 (October 15, 1841), 580. “[Their faith] is a faith which they say encourages no vice, nor immorality, nor departure from established laws and usages; neither polygamy, nor promiscuous intercourse, nor community of property.
The LDS Gospel Topics essays were my final straw. The church is the ultimate fence-sitter. The weak engagement to save their face for being dishonest about everything I was told were "AnTi-MoRmOn" lies was heartbreaking. Jim's correct--it's more of a trust crisis than a faith crisis. My faith was never the issue. The dishonesty is disqualifying. And it's not just doctrinal. My family went without insurance for two years so we could afford to buy a home AND pay tithing. Then, I learn the church was using church funds those same years to bail out their private insurance company to the tune of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS!! They are corrupt pushers of priestcraft.
Indirectly related, I believe I have cohresponded with the historian at Community of Christ Rachel whom you mentioned in a previous video. If it's in fact the same lady, I can confirm Michelle that she was very helpful when I requested documents on my family past in the church.
Without opposition where would we be? We all must discover our "inner" foundation for the truth. Most find it in the "outward," with Christ, some with Father in Heaven, some with a prophet, some with the cross, some with Buddhism, some with ordinances and ceremonies, some find it in a temple of brick and mortar, some with the Pope, and it goes on and on. I have never read the CES letter and I don't feel I am missing out on anything, not to say that I won't someday, but I have found my "inner truth" and it serves me with "inner" peace and joy. For example, let me share my experience. Ask yourself this question. What comes first in your life? Ponder that for a while! If you say Christ comes first or "God" comes first or family comes first and then religion, or yourself, or work or anything you can see, touch, taste, smell, and hear; then I would say to myself, I have missed the purpose of mortality and why I am here. What are the two great commandments? "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40) What should come first in all our lives is "LOVE!" God does not come first, Christ does not come first, the scripture says "love." "Thou shalt 'love' the Lord thy God...thou shall 'love' thy neighbor as thyself..." If “love” is not our first intention, then what is? [money, greed, power?]. We should be intelligent enough to understand that “love” is a divine attribute, not the love of money, or the love of the appetites of the flesh, but the “pure love” of godliness should come first in our lives. “Love” is honesty, and “love” is being a virtuous person with ourselves and others. “Love” is patience, respect, kindness, joy and peace, gentleness, meekness, all the divine attributes of holiness. This is what sanctifies us!!! If we do not “love” first then we are missing the real purpose of our existence, why we are here, where we are going, and how to get there. If this kind of “love” came before politics, or religion, or any relationship, wars would cease, poverty would cease, conflict would cease and godliness and holiness would rule our lives!!!
I am rather slow to settle on what I call "facts" because our knowledge is always limited. But I do find this answer that Emma gave in her last testimony to be worth listening to. This is the most compelling piece of evidence I have seen. Q. What of the truth of Mormonism? A. I know Mormonism to be the tmth; and believe the Church to have been established by divine direction. I have complete faith in it. In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, , and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.
@@MichelleBStoneit is possible it was real he used a hat. The “glasses” were too big for his face. I have yet to hear an explanation of what the 2 things are. “Urim and thummim. (Spelling). 2. Not a rock. Not an iPhone. 2 things. If he used a hat it would have likely been the first iPhone case. But again. 2 things. The problem with Nelson is he is flippant. Most psychopaths are. And the vast majority of surgeons are psychopathic or lack the concern for consequences. The problems with flippancy are the consequences-i.e. membership. If you just saw there is a now call to ban the jab after a long peer reviewed study article. It’s that serious. So back up to my 5 solas Mormon Protestantism. What do the scriptures say. “Urim & Thummim”. Cases closed the details are null. God spoke via his servant. Over and out. Nelson or the church DO NOT have the liberty to change the authenticity and authority of scripture. Amen!
@@TheOGProtestantMormonWell said. Think about for a moment, what we do know. What was in the stone box when Joseph opened it? Was there any mention of a special rock or a hat? In the stone box there were two things, the gold plates, and the Urim and Thummim. There was nothing else. And Joseph repeatedly said that he translated “by the gift and power of God, and with the Urim and Thummim”. There was a bad rumor that spread throughout the land about Joseph’s magic rocks, etc. Emma was very well aware of that. In her last testimony she was approaching 80 years old, her mental state was off, her physical health was bad. It was in the last hours of her life. We don’t even know how accurate the information was that she relayed, nor the accuracy of the scribe, and what was written down. Why would the gold plates even be necessary? Why was that record even kept if it was not to be used for translation? Why was Laban killed if those plates were not necessary? Why did Mormon compile all of the different writings onto gold plates if they weren’t not even important or necessary? Why would these records even be kept if they were not going to be used later? I believe Joseph. I believe he is a true prophet of God. I believe he is a prophet, seer and revelator. I believe he translated directly from the gold plates, and we are now the recipient of those writings contained in the Book of Mormon. I believe the Book of Mormon testifies of Christ, speaks of secret combinations that run our world today and even exposes the current LDS church as something that has grown into a lucrative corporation that has definitely gone astray. The book of Mormon testifies boldly about a church that would take peoples money, adorn, large, and spacious buildings, lie and deceive, practice priestcraft (paid clergy), commit adultery (polygamy), and false teachers would teach false, vain and foolish doctrines. The rock and hat theory is just one of those foolish doctrines. The Book of Mormon tells us specifically that every church will become polluted, and every church will go astray, “everyone of them“. And Moroni asks current church leadership a very strong and certain question, “why have ye polluted the holy Church of God“? We are completely blind if we can’t see what Moroni is talking about.
@@TheOGProtestantMormon Absolutely. 2 Nephi 28, Mormon 8 and Ether 8 call the current LDS church out for the corporation it has truly become. The Book of Mormon is not a Mormon book, it’s a volume of scripture given to those of us who will read and understand it to guide us in these last days. It is truly our handbook of instruction on how to awaken to our awful situation.
Jim. you are accepting others to form your opinion. Do some research on the subject you are discussing and come to your own opinion based on your research.
I think the disagreement is on what subject we were discussing. I made it clear from the outset that I had no interest in debating Joseph Smith’s polygamy. The subject was how different ideas should not be disqualifying when it comes to Church membership.
I'd like to hear Jim defend his certainty that he KNOWS why the records of Joseph's polygamy are scant. Actually, I guess he told us. He said people didn't want their Polygamy known, but the issue is that what other people wanted has nothing to do with Joseph, who himself denied that he was practicing and teaching Polygamy publically, that is not generally contested, and, second, no Prophet of God was afraid for long to reveal a message that they really believed was Divine. Furthermore, earlier Jim stated that he thought Polygamy was wrong. That means Joseph was not just fallible, according to his narrative, but Joseph made a HUGE gross error. Furthermore, many of the other false doctrines taught rely heavily on the truth of Polygamy. If Joseph Smith was a Polygamist, the likelyhood that he taught these additional false doctrines is much greater, so if Jim takes his narrtive and his "set of facts" to their logical conclusion, Joseph Smith at the very least becomes a fallen Prophet! That's a serious claim to make! And, if Joseph was a fallen Prophet, then Brigham was not a prophet at all, and out the window goes the succession of prophetic keys, through the Apostles or anyone else! I will not advocate forcing Jim to leave the church, but why would he want to stay in a church where prophetic keys never existed after the fall of Joseph!
Interestingly when I attended seminary in the late 90’s I was taught about the seer stones & the hat and not that Joseph practiced polygamy but of the great love story of Joseph & Emma.
Nephi made no mistake regarding race. Nephi's words about skin color are literally true, but taken out of context and misinterpreted throughout history.
Oh my gosh, he sure likes to hear himself talk! Big fan of you Michelle! Not a big fan of Jim! My idea of hell would be to have to listen to him for one more minute!
I have been digesting this conversation between two people who have nothing much in common other than having serious criticism of the Church and I think the only positive thing to say is this....stay with the Lord's Church. Be faithful first and your questions will be answered or you will have peace in not knowing now. Truth comes from the Lord through the Holy Spirit. It does not come from kindling our own sparks even as pleasing as those little sparks may be to us. Ultimately, it is a path of sorrow. Believe God calls Prophets and Apostles to lead us in these days. And has since the days of Joseph Smith. Not because they are the most knowledgeable, but because they are who the Lord wants to lead. Them...not us. This is not to say not to question, but do so in faith and not rebellion. If you stay with the Lord's Church even when you don't understand yet, you will be blessed. If you seek light from alternate sources you will not find peace.
I'd like to hear Jim explain why Joseph did not publish the revelation if received it almost a year before his death, and why he never said it should be cannonized. Also, if in fact Joseph received any revelation, even just pertaining to Eternal Marriage, wouldn't he have wanted to publish it at the very least in the Times and Seasons to clarify the churches position and to clear the air in the midst of opposition and rumor? Why did Hyrum wait until the Expositor mentioned the revelation if it was that important? How do we know the words Hyrum spoke, any version of them, not ever addressed by Hyru in his own hand, are trustworthy?
Although I refuse to be a part of the appostate Community of Christ, since I was a 5th or 6th generation member of the TRUE movement before it became the current Community of Chpist, and while I believe especially the past leadership will be held answerable for the actions of that group, I knowstand the pull one might feel to stay connected to at least some people within the church your family gave so much to defend.
I feel like something put Jim in defensive mode from the beginning and this was probably not his best showing. He seemed intelligent enough to recognize that his arguments were close minded. The convo on his podcast was better for sure. This one was rough. I think maybe both people were talking about different things half the time and neither knew it.
How could Jim believe Michelle has excellent reasons for believing what she believes but yet think Michelle's beliefs are wrong. That's a logical falacy. If the reasons behind Michelle's beliefs are "excellent" then Jim has a moral obligation if he wants to be intellectually honest to reevaluate his claims based on Michelle's position and information.
Cain and his descendants were cursed with black skins, but using that evidence in isolation of other Scriptural instruction on this matter will inevitably lead to wrong conclusions.
Michelle, my mind is twisted into a pretzel with the amazing work you have done in regard to Polygamy -- then the sheer lunacy and dogmatic defense of MAGAism.
Well, this was a very unexpected episode! Very interesting and surprising! I thought Jim’s experience with sending in his audition tape was hilarious! What has surprised me was the political factions that we are so seemingly opposed in. The bottom line is Donald Trump began the hyperbolic hypocritical rhetoric from the beginning and that is what has been so divisive in the current political climate. Yes, Jim’s logic was a little circular about facts because news publications are different from historical evidentiary sources. But you can’t simply discount news based sources simply because they’re biased or because the person you are demanding the proof from doesn’t produce the source immediately. This is exactly what continues to be the cause of contention - one side immediately dismissing the other without any attempt to look into where the information was obtained, when was it obtained, who it was from, and why was it shared? If we took some time to look into these things, we can actually start to heal and come together.
@@ajenks9 Do you know who used the term fake news first? It was not Trump, it was Obama (when talking about the only “conservative news channel” in existence, FoxNews. Sure, Trump says stuff in the open that most politicians say but only behind closed doors! But while Obama saying “I’m (we’re) going to fundamentally transform America” sounds nice it was the most *divisive statement* I think I’ve ever heard a POTUS speak, especially seeing his and Biden’s “fundamental transformation of America” so soundly rejected by 76+ million Americans on Nov 5! Do you remember Obama saying “if I had a son, he would look like Trayvon Martin” as he was helping foster racial hate in the US when a Latino-mixed race and democrat George Zimmerman shot a black teenager who was beating the sh** out of him in self defense but Democrats used to show white on black violence? There’s plenty of divisive or hyperbolic rhetoric to go around, but many people have their blinders super glued on and just go around calling people fAsCiSt to pass blame or feel better about themselves when others don’t vote the way they think we should. I hated that we got stuck with Biden/Kackles in 2020, but I never *specifically* called my fellow church pew ward mates communists and then combined it with myself having a faith crisis because of how others voted, and I have some *MAJOR* leftist ideology friends/church members in my ward who make JB seem like a reasonable moderate. Anyway, I’m tired texting so not even sure I should hit send but here we go…
Fact is important in this conversation. Jim is right to bring that as a point to bear. Perhaps it was a mistake to bring Trump as a controversial as he is, but fact is essentially what Michelle is arguing. Everything she's trying to do is to establish a fact. For some reason when someone else brings up "fact" as a point she seems to want to dismiss it-quite dismissively actually. You can't have it both ways. What Michelle is trying to do is establish a fact, and she's set up this whole podcast under that framing. It's not just about opinion.
Michelle, I want to speak directly to you for a few moments, though the message is equally important for many others. I could tell when this video started where it was going. Michelle, I'm going to be very bold here because I strongly believe what I'm saying is TRUE. At the same time, I consider you a friend and hope that that won't change. If you can still be friends with Jim, I hope you can be friends with me, and don't forget, we're likely at least distantly family. Jim is dead wrong and you are dead right on Polygamy, but Jim is dead right about Trump and about how supporting Trump is just as destructive to our culture and nation as you and I know believing Joseph Smith was a Polygamist is to the church and to the world. One reason Jim alludes to that is absolutely correct is that both falsehoods, his falsehood about Joseph and your falsehood in not being very strong in criticism of Trump, our modern King Noah, and in many ways our political Brigham Young, even to the point of altering our documentary and cultural and historical foundations as a country much like Brigham did to the church. Jim also is correct in his foundational starting point about how these issues need to be discussed. A distinction always must be drawn between perceived reality and perceived facts and true reality and true facts. Very much like feelings, everyone's perceptions must be validated as real to them and even seemingly real for them, in the current space and time, but neither perceptions, thoughts or feelings CAN and never should be put above facts in terms of actual prioritization for knowing what is truth versus falsehood, what is reality versus fantasy. It's also important to distinguish between reality that is true for me but which, by order of a higher reality, should NOT be true for me, and if it is, then the law of the higher Law is violated, and even where that becomes necessary, the consequences of violation of higher laws of reality that transcend me will still follow like night follows day. In such a situation, my best hope, if I cannot come into conformity with higher reality, is to find a way to bare the consequences of violating the higher unalterable reality in favor of mine that I am truly boxed into if that's truly the case. People make a similar mistake when reading the promise Moroni gives us that the Book of Mormon can be tested by feelings that might be stirred within us when we read it. Is that promise untrue? No, so, one might ask me, why do I object to it being hammered over the head of perspective believers? The anser is simple. Feelings are an important test, but feelings are not the only test we are given throughout the broader context of scripture, so, to isolate that test alone to the exclusion of all others given in Scripture sets us up for trouble. Moroni is correct in his admonishments, but he's also speaking to us from a very specific context and he surely knew that we would have the words of people like Paul who make it very clear that God has appointed additional tests to tuck in our toolbox besides just the feelings we might get when reading ANY Scripture or ANY piece of literature, and more especially any literature designated by Him to be Scripture. I'm glad to hear you say you don't care for Trump, and I don't necessarily disagree that some well meaning people might falsely criticize Trump (though factually and sensibly there's not much to give him credit for) just like they falsely demonize GREAT men like Joseph Smith and just like I'm sure they've made false demonizing judgments against Brigham Young, though again, there's not a lot to give Brigham credit for. I also do know of at least two issues where though Trump is not handling them correctly, and never has to my knowledge, at least not since he came to prominence for me in 2016, nevertheless he makes some good points, as much as I dislike and am even terrified of what he'll do to our country and I verily believe that folks like myself and my family will be first on his chopping block path of destruction if he has his way, and some of his supporters are even more scary than he is, nevertheless, I would be a partial, hypocritical, and ungodly judge if I did not extend credit in the very few instances where credit is due. Nevertheless, the reality and fact remains that whatever problems the other side has, and I agree they have serious problems, the path Trump proposes, at least in terms of the potential swiftness and decisive nature of the suffering and destruction heaped upon our inspired Divinely given constitution as well as to innocent people and families whom Trump and his people tout as useless thorns in the side of America, far outweighs the same things that may very well be the result of the policies and worldviews of the Trump opponents. We've been forced to choose between two evils, and it appears clear that in 2024 Americans collectively (though our very electral college system is very harmful and harms the true representation of the will of the people) have chosen the greater of the two evils. Having said that, it does not matter in foundation whether Trump, Harris, or even Kennedy take office, if we do not take the side of God and stop fighting against Zion, either passively or actively, no President and no appointed leadership will save us from the ultimate ruin and devistation that will hit us. By the way, if you really want to see what Trump is not and what we really need in a President, including radical departures from conventional ideas about crime and imigration, reread the 1844 campaign speech of Joseph Smith. Also study the law of consecration, and consider how that might look if it were implemented not only in the Church, but in the government, and ask yourself, would Joseph Smith or even Jesus promise equality through the policies and views of Trump or even his friend Kennedy? And in case you didn't catch it, I think Jim is hinting at the same thing I am. Trump has it right when he sends messages about the evils of the modern GLBTQ community, however, exagerating the situation does not help win GBLTQ people to the truth. Likewise, while there are issues with problematic people crossing the borders, some of this is because of a combination of harmful, inconsistent Trupp-like policies and worldviews that better fit Hitlar and racist evolutionary pegan concepts rather than Christian ones. Again, go reread Joseph Smith's campaign, ask yourself if Joseph would stereotype, label, vilify, and demonize every single person here illegally, whether infant, child, man or woman, no matter from which country they fled from to become undocumented here. Before you can ever expect God to fully bless your efforts to engage people like Jim, you MUST call out Trump and his people for what and who they are, the destroying angels of America who can't be surpassed in the wickedness by even problematic democrats except perhaps on the more extreme fringes of their own party. Trump and his people are actually on the very extreme fringes of their party. The problem is it's all too tempting to throw the baby out with the bathwater and to swing from one extreme to the other and not judge each issue on its own merit. Another issue is Covid. Covid cannot be wholely pinned on any one government or leader or group, though I am sure there are many mitigating factors. However, since this is one area I know has been emotional for many, and since they have consequently thrown the baby out with the bathwater, thus creating a further risk of great harm and death for the public at large, let me make a couple things clear. First, while emotionally it was difficult, and while it can't be considered completely right because LDS Temples in themselves are in direct virlation of God's laws, the LDS church was as right as they reasonablly could have been in their fallen state to close things down at the start of the pandemic. Even if the Temples were within the law of Christ, certainly Jesus values protecting the health of others as much as he values any spiritual worship or glory we might try to give Him through the church activities. Jesus words that to love God and our neighbor as ourselves trumps all other moral laws, no pun intended with regards to Trump! Besides, you might gain a better perspective if you reread John 4 and the account of how Alma dealt with people who were taught they could only worship God in the appointed places. I do have Autism and sensory issues. I know better than some that any requirements to wear masks must be seasoned with care for people for whom that is impractical or impossible. Very rarely, the same may be true for requirements for vaccinations. However, to vilify masks and vaccines broadly as evil or unnecessary and to discourage those who can use them or encourage them not to use them is to put others in danger, and to further NOT encourage those same folks to stay isolated as much as possible, especially during peak pandemic crisis or if they are sick, is fool hearty in the extreme. And, to vilify the pharmisutical companies and vaccine manufacturers and accuse them of greed without leveling the same charges against those who provide any drug or medical treatment in existence, as well as those who provide food, shelter, communication, and other urgent and needed infrustructure to people, even when they charge way more to sell their wares than it costs them to produce and market them, is hypocritical and unChristian. The short story here is truth, reality, and love must be the top priorities, Jesus is the way, he is The Truth, or The Reality, he is The Only way to life, and He is Love, and to have a incorrect view of any of these things is to have an incorrect view of Him, which will lead to nothing good, and cannot be negotiated or put on the shelf of agreeing to disagree.
God settled certain fixed realities before the foundation of the world, other realities he fixed and settled spiritually before the foundation of the world, but physically later. With God, no reality remains subjective, changeable or unsettled, yet with us as humans, our perception of reality will never be settled perfectly until the end of the current age and the beginning of the age of Christ's dogmatic rule.
The doctrine of deafication is contradicted by every other authentic Scripture inside and outside of Mormon thought. The doctrine of deafication is essential to the Polygamy doctrine, they work hand in hand, so to exalt one and decry the other is logically inconsistent. Also, being like God and a child of God is not, if in the proper context, the same as the doctrine of deafication presented in 132. By the way, the original author who wrote the song I Am A child Of God originally did not add the doctrine in that song, but only did so after pressure from the church.
These two have hurled the worst insults at fellow members, so it falls a little flat when they complain about how unthinkable it is when others criticize them.
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9miVG2xT5jY/mqdefault.jpg)
In this conversation, Michelle asks Jim, “Do you see a reason that believing that Joseph Smith started polygamy and the Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger stories would be less destructive to faith than believing Brigham Young got some things wrong?”
My answer to her question is that believing that Brigham Young got some things wrong along with the fact that the church continues to present a false narrative as true causes a person to ask what other false traditions are being presented by the church as true but are not. What Jim termed a “trust crisis” of the church is truly what happens. It is difficult to have a healthy working relationship with someone/something you do not trust.
When I presented the idea that polygamy was not of God and that Joseph Smith never practiced it to a close friend, she did a little research on the gospel library app and said it was clear as day that I was wrong and terminated her relationship with me. We are culturally conditioned as members of the church that if we read or consider anything that is contrary to what the church teaches we are putting our eternal salvation at risk. It is so ironic that our religion began with a young man seeking wisdom from God and that we are repeatedly taught in the scriptures that,” every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened,” (3 Nephi 14:7-8). God wants us to discover truth; church leaders encourage us to not question what they have presented to us as truth. I believe the church’s “glorious beauty is a fading flower, " (Isaiah 28:1).
@@michellerowell4947 Thank you for this comment. I honestly feel so validated that you actually heard and responded to the question I asked. That was the question I asked when the direction went completely political -- which I honestly found shocking and horrifying. I spent quite a while beating myself up, thinking I had taken the conversation that direction, or wondering what I had said that might have pushed it that way. Having you so clearly demonstrate that you heard and understood the question, and that it was a valid and worthwhile question helps me feel a lot better. 🙂❤️
@@MichelleBStone I am so happy you read and responded to my comment!! It was unfortunate that the conversation went political, but you handled it so well. The conversation illustrated to me why being open to being wrong is so important to finding truth as the "facts" we believe may be founded on misinterpreted information.
I went on to listen to Jim’s podcast where he interviewed you and loved that you were able to articulate your journey and your findings so freely. Both Ian and Jim seemed truly interested in understanding your perspective. I loved your emphasis at the end that polygamy is not of God and Ian’s proclamation that he has never believed polygamy is of God. As a woman, knowing that God holds polygamy to be an abomination in all circumstances is worth the pain and struggle I have experienced learning that the church is not what I believed it to be. I am not seeking to be comfortable, I am seeking for truth. Thank-you, thank-you for your hours and hours of research to find truth. Your work is truly appreciated by me.
@@MichelleBStone you got pretty defensive when he started orienting the conversation over "facts" versus "opinion." Jim might see the world differently than you, but the point he was trying to make wasn't whether he was right and you were wrong. He was trying to make a point about "facts" being the sticking point, and for you to engage on something that's just "opinion" is disingenuous. You _are_ trying to establish a fact around the circumstances of Joseph's life and polygamy, and the election-as a point of radical differences of understanding-is actually a good measuring stick for just how radically different people's views on FACTS can be.
Frankly, sometimes you get a little patronizing when someone "hasn't done as much research as you have." The condescension, in particular, is dangerous territory.
Jim forgot it was himself that brought his hurt feelings of the election results into the discussion. This interview was exhausting to listen to. Some people are just wired differently and set in their ways. So proud of you Michelle for standing up for yourself and being patient with Jim.
Michelle, you handled this episode with master-class. I love so much how you handled this without cow-towing. You stuck to your principles, and was ever so professional. I literally stopped this several times and thanked the Lord for people like you. You are absolutely amazing.
He can’t give one bit of evidence to support his position on the polygamy issue, but he is sure he’s right because he has analogies to prove it.
Jim is convinced. Case closed! 🤦🏼♀️
Jim is exhausted, until he can bring it back around to Trump. Why Trump even needed to be a part of this conversation is beyond me…
Jim’s body language and dismissal says it all. Not an ounce of humility or curiosity in him.
Cognitive dissonance can take its toll on a person. He’d realizing the facts he holds so dearly are actually alternative facts. He believes the mainstream media has been telling the truth.
Wow! I was nervous when I saw Jim Bennett on here, and I almost quit watching multiple times. The contradiction and hypocrisy were too much at times. The last few minutes were worth it. Well done, Michelle!
@@sarsimlun , well, aren’t you brave.
@@jimbennett6431 I know right! Imagine my thinking you might turn this episode of the podcast into a bitter political diatribe! Whoo! Thank goodness we avoided that! But don’t waste your breath-You and I don’t share a common set of facts. ✌🏻
@@sarsimlun, good to know.
Wow, Michelle, may God bless your patience and dignity dealing with someone claiming “facts” that are so, so debatable. That was so frustrating!!!
I do not know how you stay patient in situations like this. This guy has a serious superiority complex.
Learning that some things I once knew beyond a shadow of a doubt are now doubtful, has taught me to be wary of “facts”. You handled this challenging conversation beautifully Michelle. Of course, I preferred listening to the episode with Jim and Ian. That was less stressful.
Trust crisis. That really rings true, I think that’s accurate.
Sorry, but you should never put your trust in man or “the church” - put it in Christ. Problem solved.
Michelle, Thanks for this discussion. I had to break up my viewing of this episode because the good gentleman's arguments were specious and ill informed, and circular. He kept asserting his "facts" should be undisputable but could never cite his sources from which he draws his conclusions. His reliance on his experts and not on his own research is typical of someone who has never done original research or challenged the current narrative. So, sadly the discussion on his part was tedious. He appears a nice guy who thinks himself a broad-minded person who is very secure in his opinions. Lastly, his understanding of what fascism is and who are fascists is not even at a third grader's level. He came to a butt-kicking contest with one leg. Sad. Again, thanks Michelle. You are doing great work.
The man Jim is very close minded
💯 %
But very good looking.
@@jimbennett6431 LOL, I hope I didn't offend you with that comment. It came off more harsh than I intended it to.
I absolutely loved how Michelle even said that near the end to him. She closed and sealed the deal like an total pro
His argument about “facts” was ridiculous
@@jenniferdeloney6320, facts are always ridiculous, I guess.
...and his "facts" that was his hill to die on was that Biden won the 2020 election (WOW) and there are zero cases of people eating pets. Both can be somehow proven with 100% certainty.
Jim Bennett totally went off the rails with his “political facts “ conversation, which lessened respect towards any argument he was trying to make from then on.
He probably believes everything that CNN tells him too. He probably lives in an upscale neighborhood with others that more than likely are out of touch with the true reality of 95% of the population & their experiences (objective observations & circumstances ). He lost credibility when he started bringing up lame politics and putting people unfairly into a negative category based on team Democrat vs team Republican. It is sad when people honestly think that 1 man can make or break the United States. There is a system of checks and balances, not a knight in shining armor. It takes “We the people” to make positive changes. The Left have become the party of “the science has been settled, don’t question the science (aka the narrative), “ but true science is never settled, it should always be questioned, tested and proven.
Bless you Michelle for your patience as he was unaware of his hypocrisy and blind spots.
One of the very reasons we are here on earth is to learn charity. The foundation of charity is learning how to see another perspective and hold space for people even when we don’t agree. If someone says the sky is green, be humble and curious to understand how they got to that conclusion. Then you might come to find out something you didn’t understand before even if you still disagree. Anger and harsh judgement dissipates when we understand one another.
Like you said, our most difficult child teaches us this lesson the most. I’m so grateful for mine who has held my feet to the fire to which I’ve grown and become a better person.
100% agreed. Jim lacks self awareness. No doubt
@@TheOGProtestantMormon, facts.
For Jim to talk about FACTS, like he knows them all, concerns me about his judgements about what facts he is talking about. Look at all the things DJT was accused of by his side, and proven false!!!! For him to not listen to all sides tells me all I need to know
Michelle you are spot on. You were illustrating to him that if we just accept the science and the experts, it takes away all our responsibility to be critical thinkers. His arguments are exhausting to me, beyond measure!!!
@, yes. I know all facts. Ask me about trigonometry.
Jim moved the conversation to politics because he knew he had nothing substantive to offer about the conversation Michelle was seeking.
Jim turns a blind eye to Biden/Harris is a way that is just completely dishonest.
He needs to cancel his subscription to HuffPost and read more widely.
Girl! You nailed this, I thank the Lord for you and I will keep praying for you.
Michelle! 🎉 Remarkable! 🎉 Well done! 🎉 Admirable! 🎉 It was a joy to watch you engage so politely and kindly. That takes a lot of spiritual muscle! I noticed how easily he became exhausted. Not a lot of muscle.😂 We are all having these types of discussions and this was a perfect example of "how to". I was disappointed that your guest showed little to no intellectual/spiritual curiosity about your point of view, no willingness to learn or understand. His main point seemed to be "You're a heretic, but you can still be in the church and, no, I don't want to hear you out, I'm too tired."😂😂😂.
I love jim Bennett and align with him politically and I really appreciate you having people on this channel that you disagree with on certain issues.
I feel like a unicorn in this monogamy-affirming space because I am a “progressive” and they tend to be very closed minded to the idea that Joseph didn’t practice polygamy, and I find many monogamy-affirming people to be conservative or libertarian and I find my views and opinions clash with them politically. So I find myself not feeling like I belong here but I want to be here because I don’t believe polygamy is of god.
So thank you for having someone on your show that you don’t necessarily agree with. We need examples of these types of discussions.
Thank you!
He lost a lot of credibility with me when he exposed his political bias. And added to it with his view in polygamy. 🤷♀️
He only lost credibility with women who worship rapist, adulterer Trump.
I disagree with both Michelle and Jim. If Brigham Young claimed god commanded polygamy and racial preferences at times, that makes him a false prophet, period. Full Stop! There is no 'baby' being thrown out with the bathwater.
They should BOTH quit. For personal integrity's sake. I can see Jim doing it after his stint in the choir.
I really like the viewpoint that the main body of the church appointed Brigham as their prophet by following him. He had priesthood keys because he was the president of the Quorum of the 12. God allows his children agency even when they choose kings contrary to what God instructs… he allows us to learn sometimes the hard way… false prophet? Nah, he said himself “he is not a prophet like Joseph or Daniel, he is more of a yankee guesser.” 😂 God works within men’s weaknesses. Corse corrections have been made since Brigham and will continue to be made because we have fallible prophets and leaders. We don’t have to freak out and we can take courage because we have been promised “…no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing…”. It’s an exciting time to be a member of the church!
@@tls9382 We are the Brighamite$
@@tls9382 Problem is the church has never completely 'course corrected',. No current 'prophets' have even admitted polygamy or racial preferences were wrong. They just claim it was a 'temporary commandment' and most members still believe nonsense like an actual perfect loving God commanded old men and multiple's of young girl polygamy and God turned people's skin dark because of their iniquity at least some times.
Fix that and maybe it might actually be 'an exciting time to be a member'. However for now, for me, the answer is the opposite.
@@sdfotodude 🤣
Couldn't finish once he started whining about losing. Woohoo, our country is full of hope again!
Exactly. Now Jim Bennet understands how others felt when Obama was in office. No one asked Jim, "Is it a fact that Barack Obama declared this is no longer a Christian nation? Is it a fact that Kamala Harris said she would restore "reproductive freedom" nationwide?
@@stefanylclark7419, two Ts, please.
Ironic that you can't be in the choir after 60, but the Q15 is required to die in the office.
You’re a much more patient woman than I am Michelle
Jim Bennet has been the biggest disappointment of all the online LDS voices. He’s deeply suffering from TDS and unfortunate logic has gone completely out the door with him. I hope he finds his way back to common sense.
Jim has stage 4 TDS. There is no reasoning with somebody like that.
@@whyisgamora3721 just because he has TDS and is delusional/wrong (in my opinion) politically, does NOT mean he’s wrong always. He did a great job here. I hope he doesn’t see this, I would hate for him to know I agree with him on something hahaha!!
Jim has a terminal case of TDS! 😂🤣He went into full irrational baby mode. He made himself look like a fool. 🤡
Most people seem to vote for the person. Why don't people vote for the platform! We live in a two-party system! So if I cast a vote for a third party, I am wasting my vote IMO! We have two platforms, the republican platform and the democrat platform. If you look at the platforms it is obvious to me who we should vote for! We should vote for the "life of the unborn."
We DO NOT have to say or believe that Joseph Smith was as horrible as the church narrative says he is in order to do away with Prophet infallibility! He can still be super awesome and not have to keep Prophet infallibility! I'm so frustrated with this viewpoint.
I don’t think that viewpoint was at all represented by either of us in this discussion.
Prophet infallibility was another of Brigham’s inventions.
Feb. 23, 1862 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 9:289
“The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother’s arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth. Your leaders are trying to live their religion as far as [they are] capable of doing so.”
Wow, Michelle. First of all, props for navigating and handling this conversation so well. Your communication skills are remarkable and you're a much better person than I would be conversing with Jim. He is the type of person who is solely controlled by "authoritative sources" and then looks for ways to be validated. At the end of the day, what he believes as "fact", is still someone else's opinion that he chooses to believe in because validation is comfortable. I hope he's able to drop the pride and arrogance and become more open minded in the future.
Yeah, that was an adventure.
The gradual corruption of once-trusted institutions and sources is, in my view, part of the reason for today's phenomenon of people watching the same movie screen but seeing two different movies. It's disappointing that anyone would find it "exhausting" to explore why people see things differently, or why they see different things.
Well, he's correct that it wasn't Muslims dancing on rooftops on 9-11. They were Israelis. Personally, I couldn't vote for either of the main candidates so I went with the libertarian candidate, as that platform more closely aligns to my political beliefs, even though I knew he didn't stand a chance.
Even if I'm not sure I'll appreciate an interview you put out, I always do learn something, thank you for your time in providing this channel❤❤
I disagree with Jim about whether or not we should engage in disagreement about the facts. He rightly believes that the facts should be fundamental because how can you discuss matters of opinion if there are not an agreement about facts. But we live in a world that disagrees about the facts. And, the more I look into it, the more both sets of facts are "verifiable". its really ridiculous how non-factual basically everything is, and no one agrees with facts. I believe it is because the system itself wants us in different camps so that we can argue rather than solve problems, and the only way out of it is to engage with misunderstanding of facts.
tell me you're stupid without telling me you're stupid... this guy.... We must all live in different realities... lol
He came to the conversation completely 100% unprepared to discuss Joseph's polygamy. Came to a gun fight with a butter knife.
👍🤣👍🤣
You are correct. I was invited to have a conversation about whether differing points of view are welcome in the church, not to debate whether or not JS was a polygamist.
The sky, in fact, is not blue. Perfect example of what Michelle is trying to say
Jacob Hansen viewers are listening to this, downing the popcorn with the biggest grins lol
You mentioned you would have a problem if Michelle was advocating for adultery.. I agree, that would be a problem. It strikes me as ironic because as I see it, the question of whether polygamy is of God or not seems to basically ask the question of whether or not God sometimes authorizes adultery as being a good and righteous thing. It seems to me that the problems inherent with adultery don’t just go away if someone says it’s “authorized” or if all those involved in sexual relations with one another get legally married. In my current paradigm it seems disingenuous to have a problem with adultery but at the same time hold space for polygamy to be of God somehow.. though I used to hold that perspective, so I don’t fault anyone for thinking that way. But these thoughts are among the things to be grappled with in this space…
I had the same. Thought. It is hard to see the genuine difference between adultery and "authorized" adultery, simply because it is labeled plural marriage.
This guy's ego is exhausting.
This made me think of the quote “humility is the key to wisdom”. He was so sure that he had all the facts and his facts were the correct facts that it made me actually feel sorry for him because that mindset is going to keep him from learning and gaining wisdom. I can’t recall when I last observed someone so close minded and sure of themselves. Poor guy.
One of the things I like about your show and you is that you’re always open to learning and the possibility that you could learn something new that could bring you more wisdom. Keep on keeping on.
If the church would repent. There could be healing.
@@dl1130 Repent? You mean, stop the supposed sin, and change course, while giving grace to all involved? If the church hasn’t repented (even though I don’t believe it’s got anything to repent for regarding plural marriage) then what else do you want?
This guy is an intellectual enigma.
Oh Michelle - I’ve been looking forward to your response videos for the contemporaneous evidence of polygamy…… ✌🏽
Next one tomorrow 🙂
@@MichelleBStonecan’t wait….. and I have been waiting very patiently actually 😊
Here is a fact, Jim. The church never taught over the pulpit, teaching manuals, etc. Joseph was a polygamist. He had but one wife, Emma. It wasn't until the Gospel Topic Essays that they changed their teaching. This problem is because of the church. It's not the members' fault as the church and the apologists attempt to place blame.
Here is a fact, dl1130. My purpose in this conversation was not to argue for or against JS’s polygamy.
Agreed.🫡! I was sooo lost when it came out. That’s when I went completely inactive and joined the Irish union Protestant army and realized Brigham was the pope and Nelson was the head of the IRA. Figuratively of course. It was Time to be a MormonProteatant! I could feel the call!!
@@jimbennett6431then why did you Komrad Bennet?
"....The revelation (so called) authorized certain men to have more wives than one at a time, in this world and in the world to come. It said this was the law, and commanded Joseph to enter into the law.-And also that he should administer to others. Several other items were in the revelation, supporting the above doctrines." -William Law the First President of the LDS
@@whatsup3270 hello friend. Respectfully, you must be new here. I suggest taking a look at Michelle’s videos from the start and going through them. You’ll come to find this quote was, and many others supposedly given to equate Joseph with Polygamy (whether outwardly or secret) is not a reliable source. It was given many years after Joseph was killed and history was changed and rewritten by men like this. 😊
This man’s hubris is shocking. How does he live in this world? I seriously cannot believe he openly admitted that he’s basing his beliefs on what the “experts” have said 😳😂🤦🏼♀️.
So painful to watch people rattle on about Trump that have TDS.
I hope you recognize that it’s equally painful for us on the other side. And I’m not speaking as someone who doesn’t understand your side. I’ve had hours and hours of conversations since 2020 with people who voted for trump then and voted for trump this time including all kinds of tangents. I have found that at the end of the day, we believe a different set of facts and trust different sources. And there is no way for either side to prove that they are correct. So go ahead and say it’s painful for you to watch. I hope you will believe that it’s also painful for us. 🙏🏻
@@marihewardhow does one go about being right concerning politics?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@marihewardyou must be wealthy and like being broke and in endless wars and enforced jabs and high gas prices and 8$ a gallon milk.
I'm SOOOO glad Trump won this round.
The ignorance in an argument like Jim's is claiming that people don't share common ground on factual data. The truth is that we all share facts, but the ignorance is focusing on the separations. When we get down to basic truths like the color of the sky, we can all observe personally and share that truth. However, there are still alternate realities for some whose eyes do not function the same way and therefore see a different color of sky. Additionally, the color of the sky is not consistent. It changes from black to blue to gray to orange. That doesn't change the reality for the people who see it most commonly, but the truth is that there is a sky that we can all observe. The ignorance in saying there is no point in engaging with people who don't share common facts is dismissing the multitude of common facts that are shared and focusing on just a few minuscule points of data that are seen differently. It's like refusing to talk about constellations because you see a grouping of stars making one shape, and another person sees a grouping of stars split into two different shapes, or whatever it may be. You live in alternate realities because you see different shapes of the stars and therefore refuse to discuss the shapes that you see. In the end, you aren't even seeing all the stars anyway, so what does any of our perspective really matter? Let's just be good to each other and follow the example of Christ. We need to be longsuffering and patient and engage. There's no sense in dismissing any opportunity to engage, especially if you think that you have a truth that the other does not. I am sorrowed to hear Jim say an opinion like that, when I personally have engaged with many who live in alternate realities because of their different perspective. I can say that I have grown more in understanding and proximity to Christ by engaging and not refusing because I dismiss their reality as being a hoax. I would actually say that concerning the sky during a sunny day, it is not blue. It is everything but blue. It absorbs all of the color of light that is not the color that we see. It rejects the color that we see, therefore we perceive it to be blue when in reality it is everything but blue.
@prophetcentral Very well put
I was thinking about that tonight as I watched the sunset, how funny it is that the example he used as the most clear and obvious fact of all is observably not, in fact, what he stated. I really enjoy listening to Jim Bennett and find him to be very likable, I just don’t think any of divisions that this world tries to set up for us are worth tossing aside the love we are invited to experience together in Christ.
1:30:18 - sorry Jim, all the lights are actually the same colour. But there are coloured coverings that give the light the appearance of being red or green or amber. But the light source is the same. This nuance is what Michelle is referring to and is essential to find out truth.
Wow, this guy is arrogant to think he's the arbiter of truth. 😮
I haven't watched it all, but at 32 minutes he says each person is their own arbitrator of truth.
@MommaCrissa yes. He does flip flop a bit
@@MommaCrissa truth is not relative. But is it. Truth is only relative to the perspective. We have to make sense of our world. But at some point there needs to be radical acceptance for change and and reconciliation to actual truth. I have felt the spirit comfort me about a job thought it was telling me I’d get. But did not get the job. I have been to the temple and felt the spirit but then gone at the veil and the celestial room the spirit all but vanished on more than one occasion. Mainly the salt lake temple-the finest of sanctuaries. What does it all mean? I prefer the sound doctrine of scripture. We know of baptisms for the dead in sacred spaces. But down the hall in each temple , to my truth, is a Masonic lodge of endowment. Most would fight me tooth and nail on this. But where is the endowment in scripture? No place. The Book of Mormon teaches us how to baptize. But what of the rest? Inventions of men to enforce compliance.
@@TheOGProtestantMormon idad, i still haven't finished this but will.
However, last night I watched a video that I felt brought more truth about what God wants and who God is than anything in the church. There were more moments of burning of the Holy Ghost than any temple or sacrament meeting. We need to be talking about God more than we ever knew in my opinion. Bringing heaven to earth. If you want to watch it too, it is called
SEEING into the Spirit Realm... By The Deep End with Taylor Welch.
Jim when it comes to Trump: “It’s a matter of facts. I know all the facts with absolute certainty, and you don’t.”
You're final perspective, Michelle was perfectly worded about how to hang on to truth and throw out the dross, or as you said to keep as much of the proverbial baby as possible. Our testimony CANNOT be based on a person or (prophets). We DON'T have to let naysayers separate us from the gospel of Jesus Christ. Naysayers are such "all or nothing" types. We can believe in the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and all the teachings in the Book of Mormon without acknowledging any of the fallen teachings of leaders when they speak as a man. Everyone can be a prophet. Everyone can receive revelation. If a church leader speaks for the Lord we can know for ourselves through PERSONAL revelation that he speaks the truth. When the same leader speaks from his fallible self and his limited mortal perception we can also know he is not speaking for the Lord. We are not drones required to follow every little opinion of a prophet. We are children of a loving God who loves us and fully expects us to use our God given gifts and talents to think for ourselves and determine what is truth and error.
Thanks!
I’ve never been LDS. I don’t intend to be LDS. But if I were to be LDS I’d be the Jim Bennett type. He represents the version of a faith that I think is healthy. He believes in breaking down the Us vs Them mindset, embracing differences, and showing empathy towards others with differing points of view. Lastly, I did vote for his dad who I considered one of the few honest, decent politicians.
I agree. I wonder if you found it as interesting as I did how different his approach appeared to be in regard to politics than it is in regard to religion.
@ I’m not sure I can answer your question. But I’m just so disappointed in our political climate. We literally had to suspend any political discussion in our household as it inevitably turned into loud voices and even shouting. We also stopped watching the news. Religion is also touchy as we have differing opinions. Sadly calm dialogue is near extinction. To be honest I do find myself regrettably falling into the passionate side of sports (Go Utes). But I usually find more civility (not always) in sports.
Ha ha ha, JB the great uniter! He lambasted Jordan Peterson, one of the current most enlightening speakers who has influenced 100s of thousands to stop defeating habits ruining their lives. Personally attacking a contemporary icon who empirically improves society just because you disagree w his politics does opposite of unite. By just accusing the othersides leaders being the problem and not your own and claim you want healing falls flat.
@ I’ve heard of Jordan Peterson but I’m not familiar with the specific details of what he espouses.
@Zeett09 easy to find on RUclips
2:09:00 ish 😮
What? It's like he doesn't even care about studying scripture. Who cares about how early Church members perceived its meaning. The point is what does it actually mean.
@@frankcastle5513, as per the interpretation of 2 Nephi 5:21, with a handful of modern exceptions, “early Church members” encompasses pretty much every Church member from 1830 until now.
@@jimbennett6431 False traditions abound. How often are "...the humble followers of Christ...led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men."
I suppose such a misinterpretation that persisted for generations (and frankly I know people today, with whom it still persists) is an example of why we are still under condemnation for taking lightly the covenant of the Book of Mormon.
It does not require that Joseph Smith is infallible to say that he never fell into the trap of Polygamy. It may be feel that way to some tp, and validating ANYONE'S feelings but that does not mean that their feelings mesh with reality.
Happy Trump voter here! Jim sounded like a fool.
Well, while this talk was interesting, I felt like the interview that happened on their podcast was much much better and productive.
That episode on Jim’s podcast with Michelle was glorious. This one… mmm.. not my cup of tea.
I deeply deeply respect Jim and his work, and generally agree on him on so many aspects, but when he gets talking about politics, my eyes glaze over.
That’s not to say that his view is incorrect, it’s just, I’m already bombarded by politics everywhere I go, and I come to these type of podcasts to get away from that.
Regardless, I still appreciate him coming on, and also agreeing with the fact that there is a conversation to be had here, and that just because there are members of the church that question the historical record of polygamy, does not mean we need to be kicked out.
So I suppose, in essence, this episode was a net positive.
@@wyatttroychristensen1474 , I agree that the second discussion we had was more productive than this one. The focus of the second was to let Michelle tell her story and make her case, not to debate. I don’t ever think debates on Church issues accomplish anything.
The idea here was to discuss how we handle and accept differing ideas in the Church. Needless to say, I was not expecting a debate about polygamy.
@@jimbennett6431totally understandable. Regardless, I still really really appreciate you coming on this podcast and letting Michelle come on yours.
Also, I just wanted to say 2 other things:
1. I meant it when I said that I respect you. I have listened to every podcast episode of Inside Out and listened to your appearances on other people’s podcasts as well. You single handedly changed my entire perspective on LGBTQ issues and I will always be grateful for that.
2. I know that this election has been really hard for you, and I just wanted to say I’m sorry, and I feel for you. I may not fully understand all of the intricacies of why you feel the way you do, but I can tell it hurts, and I have nothing but empathy for you.
You’re a really good man, Jim. And you have helped me more than I can ever explain, so hopefully this small little comment can help you 🫡
@ , thank you so much! You’ve made my day!
@@wyatttroychristensen1474 Great comment
He made me crazy. … you are patient!
It's not often I sing Michelle's praises but good lord she stomped Jim
You're both right. The cover-up is worse than the mistake and it immediately turns into a trust crisis.
And yes, Jacob is Corihor.
Agreed! And thank you for recognizing what this conversation was actually about.
@@jimbennett6431BTW, you're a documents person. Look at the opening business of the Constitution Article 2 (Executive). It's the Electoral College. Then look at the 12th amendment, it's whole business is Electoral College. Then find the copies of the fake electoral slates that Trump and his team of seditionists created to submit and confuse the vote count - this is what was supposed to give Pence cover to declare he couldn't tell which slates were legitimate. Then you can go find something better than the docs, as there's actual video. They filmed the fake signing ceremonies. There are many interviews with the fake electorates claiming they were dupped into signing the fake slates. Someone who would perform this kind of attack on the Constitution cannot be taken seriously when he swears to uphold and protect it. It's all in the docs. Check em out. LDS are supposed to protect the Constitution.
@@chuckkv, I’m with you 100%.
@@jimbennett6431 BTW, we met at usu when you stood in to debate for your dad against Lee. I used to work there. I really made a mistake not voting for your dad that year. Especially after I saw on the court docket that Lee introduced Sydney Powell to Trump, I have so many regrets... It's interesting to see you and me, lifelong conservatives, end up in the same place on him.
At the 48:33 mark. I do understand and agree with what you are saying up to a point. However, there is a difference between genuine seeking of truth and questioning beliefs vs. open opposition to faith.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Opposition as a gift! Yeah, that's what Lehi tells his son in the first part of the Book of Mormon, there has to be an opposition in all things, and yes, opposition in marriage is a NECESSITY, that's why gender identity is such a threat to family!
How do you have over 100k subs but your most watched video is 70k. The math isn’t mathing.
This started out so good. Too bad it got bogged down in political differences.
For those who are “hating on Jim,” I think you should watch his own podcast that Michelle links here, which they recorded the next day. It was a great conversation and platform, and I think it shows Jim’s magnanimity - that he treated Michelle with such respect and open-mindedness on his podcast, even after this conversation.
I completely understand where Jim is coming from, as I tend to see many things similarly to Jim on politics, and see things similarly to Michelle re: polygamy.
Michelle, I’ve noticed that many of your listeners have similar political views to you. However, the people who really need to take you/your arguments seriously in order to help get the “accepted historical narrative” revisited for real (and not just in small corners of the Internet) are the kinds of people who have no patience with the kinds of unfounded falsehoods, poor logic and conspiratorial thinking they see happening in much of DJT-land. The last thing you want is for people to label your work on polygamy as being the same caliber of arguments they’ve seen in the public square.
You really are a good person, Michelle. And you are a complex thinker, and you’ve done a lot of good work on this polygamy topic. I just can’t wrap my mind around your support of DJT, especially given that I see so many parallels between BY and DJT. (But maybe that in itself is a parallel to the many good, smart people who followed/went along with BY, 😉.).
Tbh, both scenarios convince me all the more that my personal turning to Christ, and hopefully many others doing the same, is the only thing that’s going to help us all get through this together. ❤️
Thank you so much for this comment. I appreciate your thoughtful approach.
I agree that the conversation the next day (released on his podcast) was MUCH better. I wasn't sure I was going to release this one at all, but I hoped it would still be worthwhile.
And to the political question, to be perfectly honest, I have been so busy with research that I have not paid close attention to this election cycle. But, to try to answer the question of why I voted the way I did, I will say that my priorities have been around issues like the borders and wars. Those are huge concerns to me, and I have been very unhappy with how they have been handled. While there are plenty of things I don't like about Trump (including his pushing the latest shots and claiming credit for them) I do appreciate that he is the only president in my lifetime who has not engaged in foreign wars. I thought we made huge strides internationally when he was president. And the border issue has been horrifying. I don't know if you have much use for Brett Weinstein, but hearing him talk about the Darien Gap is horrifying. That is just one example. And I have LONG been deeply concerned and frustrated about the corruption of America's food supply and how unbelievably difficult it is to even try to provide a healthy diet for any of my children, but particularly my son with a serious rheumatoid condition. I HATE what seems to be infinite corruption in the political sphere, especially on the international stage. Because of RFK jr's willingness to take extremely unpopular stances on issues I care about, I am daring to believe that perhaps he may not be subject to the same kind of corruption. I have been deeply concerned about the direction "the left" (I hate using these terms) has been taking our country. I feel deep relief that we are having a change in the whitehouse. While I know many people are feeling the opposite, I am daring to have a little bit of hope for our country.
There is much more I would say in a full conversation, but I hope that gives at least a partial understanding.
@MichelleBStone, I do appreciate that you do not love DJT; I have family and friends who think he is an instrument of God, etc. It’s tough.
I also appreciate your long response.
I don’t intend to get into a long back and forth on politics with you.
I too favor peace over war. However, I fail to see how a person who engages in more “personal wars” on a daily basis than anyone I’ve ever seen lead our country, and someone who admires autocrats and dictators is an agent of peace.
As for immigration, I’ve spent a fair amount of time on this topic in real life, and from what I see, not only did DJT lie about the topic and use it for fearmongering way out of proportion, but his solution will not solve the problem. His wall -now coupled with deploying the military throughout our country for mass deportation - is more akin to what we see in totalitarian regimes. I have never seen him speak intelligently about real solutions. We haven’t updated our immigration laws for 50 years (last reform of any consequence was over 30 years ago). That is at the root of our problem. We need to reform our immigration laws.
As for health, I fear it will be a one step forward, two steps back sort of thing,
But my biggest concern is DJT’s complete disrespect and disregard for the Constitution. He seems much more interested in personal benefit and amassing power for particular people and groups than in creating a country that can work for all in our diverse population (liberty and equality).
I just hope we can all stay focused on promoting goodness and truth, as we understand it, and don’t turn on each other.
@@txc-yw2ou This was articulated so well. Thank you for replying to her. I feel like a unicorn in this space. I lean left (a never-trumper) so I don't fit with the political views of many in this space but most progessives dismiss the kind of content michelle is providing too quickly. I find both sides frustrating for different reasons. Anyway, it's nice to know there are other people who follow Michelle who view things similarly politically. I don't always want to be in an echo chamber, but it's also hard to always feel like the odd-woman-out.
@mariheward, yes, it’s a shame that there isn’t more diversity in this movement skeptical of the polygamy narrative, and it’s a shame that more people on the less “conservative” side won’t pay attention to this viewpoint in the polygamy debate. I’m glad you’re here, too.
Jim seem to not know that both sided are liars
Good job holding your own on this one !! His unwillingness to look at the evidence both in polygamy and about Trump is unfortunate for him. It's lazy in my opinion. Maybe you planted a seed for him.
Love Jim! Fan of his podcast. I heard about u from his channel. ❤
I sense that jim was not blaming but is dealing with a personal faith crisis. There are times i want to argue just for the sake of arguing, but I'm suffering from something personal, and i dump it on the person I'm arguing with. He conflicted himself many times in this podcast. I see that i need to clean up with my daughter, whom i argued with, and stop doing that.
This is fair, although I apologize for “dumping” on Michelle, as that was not my intent.
@jimbennett6431 i don't think it was your intent to dump on Michelle. In your interaction with her, what happened is what's called a "crystallization of evil," which is not a bad thing. It's an opportunity to look at something that is and was a blindspot to you before the interaction with Michelle. I would venture to say that what happened with Michelle happens everywhere in your life. It is something which i call machinery that is running the show. The impact of engaging with that machinery is exhaustion. Which was evident to watch as your interaction with Michelle progressed. It wasn't engaging in the conversation that was exhausting but engaging with the machinery, which always shows fruits antithetical to the Spirt. It's not the people who voted for Trump that's exhausting you, it's your justification to allow yourself to be your machinery one more time. The cost of engagement with machinery is loss of love, affinity, peace, power, and full self expression. The payoff of engaging as machinery is that you get to be right, and you're justified in dominating and avoiding domination. You turn into a combatant who will win while the other loses. The way out is to expose the machinery for what it is; get present to the impact that the machinery has on yourself and others; be willing to engage authentically and responsibly until edification is present: where both parties are edifified and a new way of being becomes possible that wasn't available before.
Jim is spot on about the primary and secondary questions. Resolving the secondary questions is essential to coming to conclusions on the primary questions. My scenario was similar to what was said, I had much more of a trust crisis than a faith crisis, and although I’m active I still struggle to trust the church as an organization.
Jim I really liked what you said about politics. What you said about whether someone thinks they voted for a fascist or not, they are still voting for a fascist. I 100% agree with you on that and have said similar things.
I know you’re not interested in hearing Joseph out on the topic of polygamy, but I’m going to post the sources that I have in hopes that you have an open enough mind to take a look at what Joseph ACTUALLY did and said. If you don’t, that’s on you and proves your closed mindedness, but I don’t think that you actually are closed minded and think you are a fair enough person to take a look at even just a few of our beloved prophets words.
Much love.
May 1837 - Latter Day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate (Kirtland, Ohio), May 1837, page 511.
The May 1837 issue of the Messenger and Advocate contained a warning from the presidents of seventies meeting held 28 April 1837 that "we will have no fellowship whatever with any Elder belonging to the quorum of the Seventies who is guilty of polygamy or any offense of the kind."
29 November 1837 - Kirtland Elder’s Quorum Record, 1836-1841, edited by Lyndon W. Cook and Milton V. Backman, Jr. (Provo, Utah: Grandin Book Company, 1985), 35.
“the charge that was preferred before the quorum against Elder Sollomon [sic] Freeman by William Perry for the crime of polygamy was brought forward. Elder Freeman plead not gilty of the charge [.] [T]estimony for the Complainent came forward (Dexter Stilman) and Stated the Elder Freeman had a wife in Tollan township Co. of Berksheir in Mass. And it was told him there that he (E. Freeman) Came a way [without his] wife Elder Harlow Redfield Stated that when he and Elder Stilman went to See Elder Freeman. Elder Freeman ackno[w]loged that he come away and left his wife as was testified Elder Freeman ackno[w]loged before the quorum that he had left his first wife came away with and Soon Commenced living with another woman he further Stated he did not know but his first wife was yet living he further Stated he would not go acros [sic] the room to obtain a bill from her Elder Freeman Manifest a Car[e]less indifferent spirit.”
July 1838 - [Editorial,] Elder’s Journal, 1 (July 1838), 43.
"Question 7th. Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one. [sic] Answer. No, not at the same time. But they believe that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again. But we do disapprove of the custom which has gained in the world, and has been practised [sic] among us; to our great mortification, of marrying in five or six weeks, or even in two or three months after the death of their companion. We believe that due respect ought to be had, to the memory of the dead, and the feelings of both friends and children."
7: 1838 Dec 16 - Joseph Smith, Liberty, Missouri to Saints in Caldwell County, Missouri, December 16, 1838, published in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2002), 419-20.
“We say again unto you we are innocent of these things they have represented us falsely Was it for committing adultery, we are aware that false slander has gone abroad for it has been reiterated in our ears. These are falsehoods also. Renegadoes, mormon dissenters are running through the world and spreading various foul and libelous reports against us thinking thereby to gain the friendship of the world because they knew that we are not of the world and that the world hates us; therefore they make a tool of these fellows...We have heard that it has been reported by some that some of us should have said that we not only dedicated our property but our families also to the Lord, and satan taking advantage of this has transfigured it into lasciviousness such as a community of wives which is an abomination in the sight of God. When we consecrate our property to the Lord it is to administer to the wants of the poor and needy for this is the law of God it is not for the purpose of the rich those who have no need and when a man consecrates or dedicates his wife and children he does not give them to his brother or to his neighbor for there is no such law for the law of God is thou shalt not commit adultery thou shalt not covet they neighbor’s wife. He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in his heart...”
April 1840 - While the prophet Joseph was in Liberty Jail reports were circulated that the imprisoned Church leaders were polygamist. Joseph responded in a letter that was printed in the Times and Seasons, April 1840.
Know assuredly Dear brethren, that it is for the testimony of Jesus, that we are in bonds and in prison....
Was it for committing adultery? We are aware that false and slanderous reports have gone abroad, which have reached our ears, respecting this thing, which have been started by renagadoes, and spread by the dissenters, who are extremely active in spreading foul and libilous reports concerning us; thinking thereby to gain the fellowship of the world.... Some have reported that we not only dedicated our property, but likewise our families to the Lord, and Satan taking advantage of this has transfigured it into lasciviousness, a community of wives [polygamy], which things are an abomination in the sight of God.
When we consecrate our property to the Lord, it is to administer to the wants of the poor and needy according to the laws of God, and when a man consecrates or dedecates his wife and children to the Lord, he does not give them to his brother or to his neighbor; which is contrary to the law of God, which says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife." "He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in his heart."Now for a man to consecrate his property, his wife and children to the Lord is nothing more nor less than to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the widows and fatherless, the sick and afflicted; and do all he can to administer to their relief in their afflictions, and for himself and his house to serve the Lord. In order to do this he and all his house must be virtuous and shun every appearance of evil. Now if any person, has represented any thing otherwise than what we now write they have willfully misrepresented us. (Times and Seasons 1 [April 1840]: 82-85)
15 October 1841 - An “Intelligent” Non-Mormon, “The Mormons,” reprinted in the Times and Seasons, 2 (October 15, 1841), 580.
“[Their faith] is a faith which they say encourages no vice, nor immorality, nor departure from established laws and usages; neither polygamy, nor promiscuous intercourse, nor community of property.
The LDS Gospel Topics essays were my final straw. The church is the ultimate fence-sitter. The weak engagement to save their face for being dishonest about everything I was told were "AnTi-MoRmOn" lies was heartbreaking. Jim's correct--it's more of a trust crisis than a faith crisis. My faith was never the issue. The dishonesty is disqualifying.
And it's not just doctrinal. My family went without insurance for two years so we could afford to buy a home AND pay tithing. Then, I learn the church was using church funds those same years to bail out their private insurance company to the tune of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS!! They are corrupt pushers of priestcraft.
Indirectly related, I believe I have cohresponded with the historian at Community of Christ Rachel whom you mentioned in a previous video. If it's in fact the same lady, I can confirm Michelle that she was very helpful when I requested documents on my family past in the church.
Without opposition where would we be? We all must discover our "inner" foundation for the truth. Most find it in the "outward," with Christ, some with Father in Heaven, some with a prophet, some with the cross, some with Buddhism, some with ordinances and ceremonies, some find it in a temple of brick and mortar, some with the Pope, and it goes on and on.
I have never read the CES letter and I don't feel I am missing out on anything, not to say that I won't someday, but I have found my "inner truth" and it serves me with "inner" peace and joy. For example, let me share my experience. Ask yourself this question. What comes first in your life? Ponder that for a while! If you say Christ comes first or "God" comes first or family comes first and then religion, or yourself, or work or anything you can see, touch, taste, smell, and hear; then I would say to myself, I have missed the purpose of mortality and why I am here.
What are the two great commandments?
"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40)
What should come first in all our lives is "LOVE!" God does not come first, Christ does not come first, the scripture says "love." "Thou shalt 'love' the Lord thy God...thou shall 'love' thy neighbor as thyself..." If “love” is not our first intention, then what is? [money, greed, power?]. We should be intelligent enough to understand that “love” is a divine attribute, not the love of money, or the love of the appetites of the flesh, but the “pure love” of godliness should come first in our lives. “Love” is honesty, and “love” is being a virtuous person with ourselves and others. “Love” is patience, respect, kindness, joy and peace, gentleness, meekness, all the divine attributes of holiness. This is what sanctifies us!!! If we do not “love” first then we are missing the real purpose of our existence, why we are here, where we are going, and how to get there. If this kind of “love” came before politics, or religion, or any relationship, wars would cease, poverty would cease, conflict would cease and godliness and holiness would rule our lives!!!
Cleveland, maybe?
The stone in the hat is not fact.
I am rather slow to settle on what I call "facts" because our knowledge is always limited. But I do find this answer that Emma gave in her last testimony to be worth listening to. This is the most compelling piece of evidence I have seen.
Q. What of the truth of Mormonism?
A. I know Mormonism to be the tmth; and believe the Church to have
been established by divine direction. I have complete faith in it. In writing for
your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by
him, , and dictating
hour after hour with nothing between us.
@@MichelleBStoneit is possible it was real he used a hat. The “glasses” were too big for his face. I have yet to hear an explanation of what the 2 things are. “Urim and thummim. (Spelling). 2. Not a rock. Not an iPhone. 2 things. If he used a hat it would have likely been the first iPhone case. But again. 2 things. The problem with Nelson is he is flippant. Most psychopaths are. And the vast majority of surgeons are psychopathic or lack the concern for consequences. The problems with flippancy are the consequences-i.e. membership. If you just saw there is a now call to ban the jab after a long peer reviewed study article. It’s that serious. So back up to my 5 solas Mormon Protestantism. What do the scriptures say. “Urim & Thummim”. Cases closed the details are null. God spoke via his servant. Over and out. Nelson or the church DO NOT have the liberty to change the authenticity and authority of scripture. Amen!
@@TheOGProtestantMormonWell said.
Think about for a moment, what we do know. What was in the stone box when Joseph opened it? Was there any mention of a special rock or a hat?
In the stone box there were two things, the gold plates, and the Urim and Thummim. There was nothing else.
And Joseph repeatedly said that he translated “by the gift and power of God, and with the Urim and Thummim”.
There was a bad rumor that spread throughout the land about Joseph’s magic rocks, etc. Emma was very well aware of that. In her last testimony she was approaching 80 years old, her mental state was off, her physical health was bad. It was in the last hours of her life. We don’t even know how accurate the information was that she relayed, nor the accuracy of the scribe, and what was written down.
Why would the gold plates even be necessary? Why was that record even kept if it was not to be used for translation? Why was Laban killed if those plates were not necessary? Why did Mormon compile all of the different writings onto gold plates if they weren’t not even important or necessary? Why would these records even be kept if they were not going to be used later?
I believe Joseph. I believe he is a true prophet of God. I believe he is a prophet, seer and revelator. I believe he translated directly from the gold plates, and we are now the recipient of those writings contained in the Book of Mormon. I believe the Book of Mormon testifies of Christ, speaks of secret combinations that run our world today and even exposes the current LDS church as something that has grown into a lucrative corporation that has definitely gone astray. The book of Mormon testifies boldly about a church that would take peoples money, adorn, large, and spacious buildings, lie and deceive, practice priestcraft (paid clergy), commit adultery (polygamy), and false teachers would teach false, vain and foolish doctrines. The rock and hat theory is just one of those foolish doctrines.
The Book of Mormon tells us specifically that every church will become polluted, and every church will go astray, “everyone of them“. And Moroni asks current church leadership a very strong and certain question, “why have ye polluted the holy Church of God“?
We are completely blind if we can’t see what Moroni is talking about.
@@psmith535 and I would add, the holy church of God isn’t the other denominations Joseph was told not to join.
@@TheOGProtestantMormon Absolutely. 2 Nephi 28, Mormon 8 and Ether 8 call the current LDS church out for the corporation it has truly become.
The Book of Mormon is not a Mormon book, it’s a volume of scripture given to those of us who will read and understand it to guide us in these last days. It is truly our handbook of instruction on how to awaken to our awful situation.
Jim. you are accepting others to form your opinion. Do some research on the subject you are discussing and come to your own opinion based on your research.
I think the disagreement is on what subject we were discussing. I made it clear from the outset that I had no interest in debating Joseph Smith’s polygamy. The subject was how different ideas should not be disqualifying when it comes to Church membership.
I'd like to hear Jim defend his certainty that he KNOWS why the records of Joseph's polygamy are scant. Actually, I guess he told us. He said people didn't want their Polygamy known, but the issue is that what other people wanted has nothing to do with Joseph, who himself denied that he was practicing and teaching Polygamy publically, that is not generally contested, and, second, no Prophet of God was afraid for long to reveal a message that they really believed was Divine. Furthermore, earlier Jim stated that he thought Polygamy was wrong. That means Joseph was not just fallible, according to his narrative, but Joseph made a HUGE gross error. Furthermore, many of the other false doctrines taught rely heavily on the truth of Polygamy. If Joseph Smith was a Polygamist, the likelyhood that he taught these additional false doctrines is much greater, so if Jim takes his narrtive and his "set of facts" to their logical conclusion, Joseph Smith at the very least becomes a fallen Prophet! That's a serious claim to make! And, if Joseph was a fallen Prophet, then Brigham was not a prophet at all, and out the window goes the succession of prophetic keys, through the Apostles or anyone else! I will not advocate forcing Jim to leave the church, but why would he want to stay in a church where prophetic keys never existed after the fall of Joseph!
Interestingly when I attended seminary in the late 90’s I was taught about the seer stones & the hat and not that Joseph practiced polygamy but of the great love story of Joseph & Emma.
I just so appreciate you Michell ❤
1:21:43 RFK Jr all the way! Yeahhhh
Where would the church be today without the leadership of Brigham Young or polygamy?
Jim is exactly right re NOT agreeing to disagree about objective facts and not living in a common reality, so it’s a waste of time.
Nephi made no mistake regarding race. Nephi's words about skin color are literally true, but taken out of context and misinterpreted throughout history.
Utah was the only state to shift towards the Blue this election. 😮
Rightfully so. People are waking up to how awful Brigham was and Trump is the same archetype as Brigham.
Yes and proud of it.
@@RBD582😂 uh huh, tell me more
@@marihewardas if that is something to be proud about? Make Utah like California! 🙌
@@RBD582it’s because Utah is accepting the wicked nature of the world and the LGBT movement.
Oh my gosh, he sure likes to hear himself talk! Big fan of you Michelle! Not a big fan of Jim! My idea of hell would be to have to listen to him for one more minute!
I have been digesting this conversation between two people who have nothing much in common other than having serious criticism of the Church and I think the only positive thing to say is this....stay with the Lord's Church. Be faithful first and your questions will be answered or you will have peace in not knowing now.
Truth comes from the Lord through the Holy Spirit. It does not come from kindling our own sparks even as pleasing as those little sparks may be to us. Ultimately, it is a path of sorrow.
Believe God calls Prophets and Apostles to lead us in these days. And has since the days of Joseph Smith. Not because they are the most knowledgeable, but because they are who the Lord wants to lead. Them...not us. This is not to say not to question, but do so in faith and not rebellion.
If you stay with the Lord's Church even when you don't understand yet, you will be blessed. If you seek light from alternate sources you will not find peace.
I'd like to hear Jim explain why Joseph did not publish the revelation if received it almost a year before his death, and why he never said it should be cannonized. Also, if in fact Joseph received any revelation, even just pertaining to Eternal Marriage, wouldn't he have wanted to publish it at the very least in the Times and Seasons to clarify the churches position and to clear the air in the midst of opposition and rumor? Why did Hyrum wait until the Expositor mentioned the revelation if it was that important? How do we know the words Hyrum spoke, any version of them, not ever addressed by Hyru in his own hand, are trustworthy?
Although I refuse to be a part of the appostate Community of Christ, since I was a 5th or 6th generation member of the TRUE movement before it became the current Community of Chpist, and while I believe especially the past leadership will be held answerable for the actions of that group, I knowstand the pull one might feel to stay connected to at least some people within the church your family gave so much to defend.
I feel like something put Jim in defensive mode from the beginning and this was probably not his best showing. He seemed intelligent enough to recognize that his arguments were close minded. The convo on his podcast was better for sure. This one was rough. I think maybe both people were talking about different things half the time and neither knew it.
How could Jim believe Michelle has excellent reasons for believing what she believes but yet think Michelle's beliefs are wrong. That's a logical falacy. If the reasons behind Michelle's beliefs are "excellent" then Jim has a moral obligation if he wants to be intellectually honest to reevaluate his claims based on Michelle's position and
information.
1:24:51 outside the covenant? I don't believe Christians or any good person doesn't have access to the holy ghost
Dominated women for Trump!
Cain and his descendants were cursed with black skins, but using that evidence in isolation of other Scriptural instruction on this matter will inevitably lead to wrong conclusions.
Michelle, my mind is twisted into a pretzel with the amazing work you have done in regard to Polygamy -- then the sheer lunacy and dogmatic defense of MAGAism.
Indeed, how crazy for people to want to Make America Great Again. What lunatics. 🙄
Her mental gymnastics are world-class.
The church did it's own CES Letter. It is called the Gospel Topics Essays. It broke Michelle's brain.
Hey Richard, we need to talk about "broken brains"
@@bobocomments is manic scrupulocity a clinical diagnosis?
Well, this was a very unexpected episode! Very interesting and surprising! I thought Jim’s experience with sending in his audition tape was hilarious! What has surprised me was the political factions that we are so seemingly opposed in.
The bottom line is Donald Trump began the hyperbolic hypocritical rhetoric from the beginning and that is what has been so divisive in the current political climate. Yes, Jim’s logic was a little circular about facts because news publications are different from historical evidentiary sources. But you can’t simply discount news based sources simply because they’re biased or because the person you are demanding the proof from doesn’t produce the source immediately. This is exactly what continues to be the cause of contention - one side immediately dismissing the other without any attempt to look into where the information was obtained, when was it obtained, who it was from, and why was it shared? If we took some time to look into these things, we can actually start to heal and come together.
@@ajenks9 Do you know who used the term fake news first? It was not Trump, it was Obama (when talking about the only “conservative news channel” in existence, FoxNews. Sure, Trump says stuff in the open that most politicians say but only behind closed doors! But while Obama saying “I’m (we’re) going to fundamentally transform America” sounds nice it was the most *divisive statement* I think I’ve ever heard a POTUS speak, especially seeing his and Biden’s “fundamental transformation of America” so soundly rejected by 76+ million Americans on Nov 5! Do you remember Obama saying “if I had a son, he would look like Trayvon Martin” as he was helping foster racial hate in the US when a Latino-mixed race and democrat George Zimmerman shot a black teenager who was beating the sh** out of him in self defense but Democrats used to show white on black violence?
There’s plenty of divisive or hyperbolic rhetoric to go around, but many people have their blinders super glued on and just go around calling people fAsCiSt to pass blame or feel better about themselves when others don’t vote the way they think we should.
I hated that we got stuck with Biden/Kackles in 2020, but I never *specifically* called my fellow church pew ward mates communists and then combined it with myself having a faith crisis because of how others voted, and I have some *MAJOR* leftist ideology friends/church members in my ward who make JB seem like a reasonable moderate.
Anyway, I’m tired texting so not even sure I should hit send but here we go…
Fact is important in this conversation. Jim is right to bring that as a point to bear. Perhaps it was a mistake to bring Trump as a controversial as he is, but fact is essentially what Michelle is arguing. Everything she's trying to do is to establish a fact. For some reason when someone else brings up "fact" as a point she seems to want to dismiss it-quite dismissively actually. You can't have it both ways. What Michelle is trying to do is establish a fact, and she's set up this whole podcast under that framing. It's not just about opinion.
For the record, my ancestor practiced polygamy with Joseph. That's a fact I rely on.
Michelle, I want to speak directly to you for a few moments, though the message is equally important for many others. I could tell when this video started where it was going. Michelle, I'm going to be very bold here because I strongly believe what I'm saying is TRUE. At the same time, I consider you a friend and hope that that won't change. If you can still be friends with Jim, I hope you can be friends with me, and don't forget, we're likely at least distantly family. Jim is dead wrong and you are dead right on Polygamy, but Jim is dead right about Trump and about how supporting Trump is just as destructive to our culture and nation as you and I know believing Joseph Smith was a Polygamist is to the church and to the world. One reason Jim alludes to that is absolutely correct is that both falsehoods, his falsehood about Joseph and your falsehood in not being very strong in criticism of Trump, our modern King Noah, and in many ways our political Brigham Young, even to the point of altering our documentary and cultural and historical foundations as a country much like Brigham did to the church. Jim also is correct in his foundational starting point about how these issues need to be discussed. A distinction always must be drawn between perceived reality and perceived facts and true reality and true facts. Very much like feelings, everyone's perceptions must be validated as real to them and even seemingly real for them, in the current space and time, but neither perceptions, thoughts or feelings CAN and never should be put above facts in terms of actual prioritization for knowing what is truth versus falsehood, what is reality versus fantasy. It's also important to distinguish between reality that is true for me but which, by order of a higher reality, should NOT be true for me, and if it is, then the law of the higher Law is violated, and even where that becomes necessary, the consequences of violation of higher laws of reality that transcend me will still follow like night follows day. In such a situation, my best hope, if I cannot come into conformity with higher reality, is to find a way to
bare the consequences of violating the higher unalterable reality in favor of mine that I am truly boxed into if that's truly the case.
People make a similar mistake when reading the promise Moroni gives us that the Book of Mormon can be tested by feelings that might be stirred within us when we read it. Is that promise untrue? No, so, one might ask me, why do I object to it being hammered over the head of perspective believers? The anser is simple. Feelings are an important test, but feelings are not the only test we are given throughout the broader context of scripture, so, to isolate that test alone to the exclusion of all others given in Scripture sets us up for trouble. Moroni is correct in his admonishments, but he's also speaking to us from a very specific context and he surely knew that we would have the words of people like Paul who make it very clear that God has appointed additional tests to tuck in our toolbox besides just the feelings we might get when reading ANY Scripture or ANY piece of literature, and more especially any literature designated by Him to be Scripture. I'm glad to hear you say you don't care for Trump, and I don't necessarily disagree that some well meaning people might falsely criticize Trump (though factually and sensibly there's not much to give him credit for) just like they falsely demonize GREAT men like Joseph Smith and just like I'm sure they've made false demonizing judgments against Brigham Young, though again, there's not a lot to give Brigham credit for. I also do know of at least two issues where though Trump is not handling them correctly, and never has to my knowledge, at least not since he came to prominence for me in 2016, nevertheless he makes some good points, as much as I dislike and am even terrified of what he'll do to our country and I verily believe that folks like myself and my family will be first on his chopping block path of destruction if he has his way, and some of his supporters are even more scary than he is, nevertheless, I would be a partial, hypocritical, and ungodly judge if I did not extend credit in the very few instances where credit is due. Nevertheless, the reality and fact remains that whatever problems the other side has, and I agree they have serious problems, the path Trump proposes, at least in terms of the potential swiftness and decisive nature of the suffering and destruction heaped upon our inspired Divinely given constitution as well as to innocent people and families whom Trump and his people tout as useless thorns in the side of America, far outweighs the same things that may very well be the result of the policies and worldviews of the Trump opponents. We've been forced to choose between two evils, and it appears clear that in 2024 Americans collectively (though our very electral college system is very harmful and harms the true representation of the will of the people) have chosen the greater of the two evils. Having said that, it does not matter in foundation whether Trump, Harris, or even Kennedy take office, if we do not take the side of God and stop fighting against Zion, either passively or actively, no President and no appointed leadership will save us from the ultimate ruin and devistation that will hit us. By the way, if you really want to see what Trump is not and what we really need in a President, including radical departures from conventional ideas about crime and imigration, reread the 1844 campaign speech of Joseph Smith. Also study the law of consecration, and consider how that might look if it were implemented not only in the Church, but in the government, and ask yourself, would Joseph Smith or even Jesus promise equality through the policies and views of Trump or even his friend Kennedy? And in case you didn't catch it, I think Jim is hinting at the same thing I am. Trump has it right when he sends messages about the evils of the modern GLBTQ community, however, exagerating the situation does not help win GBLTQ people to the truth. Likewise, while there are issues with problematic people crossing the borders, some of this is because of a combination of harmful, inconsistent Trupp-like policies and worldviews that better fit Hitlar and racist evolutionary pegan concepts rather than Christian ones. Again, go reread Joseph Smith's campaign, ask yourself if Joseph would stereotype, label, vilify, and demonize every single person here illegally, whether infant, child, man or woman, no matter from which country they fled from to become undocumented here. Before you can ever expect God to fully bless your efforts to engage people like Jim, you MUST call out Trump and his people for what and who they are, the destroying angels of America who can't be surpassed in the wickedness by even problematic democrats except perhaps on the more extreme fringes of their own party. Trump and his people are actually on the very extreme fringes of their party. The problem is it's all too tempting to throw the baby out with the bathwater and to swing from one extreme to the other and not judge each issue on its own merit. Another issue is Covid. Covid cannot be wholely pinned on any one government or leader or group, though I am sure there are many mitigating factors. However, since this is one area I know has been emotional for many, and since they have consequently thrown the baby out with the bathwater, thus creating a further risk of great harm and death for the public at large, let me make a couple things clear. First, while emotionally it was difficult, and while it can't be considered completely right because LDS Temples in themselves are in direct virlation of God's laws, the LDS church was as right as they reasonablly could have been in their fallen state to close things down at the start of the pandemic. Even if the Temples were within the law of Christ, certainly Jesus values protecting the health of others as much as he values any spiritual worship or glory we might try to give Him through the church activities. Jesus words that to love God and our neighbor as ourselves trumps all other moral laws, no pun intended with regards to Trump! Besides, you might gain a better perspective if you reread John 4 and the account of how Alma dealt with people who were taught they could only worship God in the appointed places. I do have Autism and sensory issues. I know better than some that any requirements to wear masks must be seasoned with care for people for whom that is impractical or impossible. Very rarely, the same may be true for requirements for vaccinations. However, to vilify masks and vaccines broadly as evil or unnecessary and to discourage those who can use them or encourage them not to use them is to put others in danger, and to further NOT encourage those same folks to stay isolated as much as possible, especially during peak pandemic crisis or if they are sick, is fool hearty in the extreme. And, to vilify the pharmisutical companies and vaccine manufacturers and accuse them of greed without leveling the same charges against those who provide any drug or medical treatment in existence, as well as those who provide food, shelter, communication, and other urgent and needed infrustructure to people, even when they charge way more to sell their wares than it costs them to produce and market them, is hypocritical and unChristian. The short story here is truth, reality, and love must be the top priorities, Jesus is the way, he is The Truth, or The Reality, he is The Only way to life, and He is Love, and to have a incorrect view of any of these things is to have an incorrect view of Him, which will lead to nothing good, and cannot be negotiated or put on the shelf of agreeing to disagree.
All this is just crazy. What a mess!!
God settled certain fixed realities before the foundation of the world, other realities he fixed and settled spiritually before the foundation of the world, but physically later. With God, no reality remains subjective, changeable or unsettled, yet with us as humans, our perception of reality will never be settled perfectly until the end of the current age and the beginning of the age of Christ's dogmatic rule.
The doctrine of deafication is contradicted by every other authentic Scripture inside and outside of Mormon thought. The doctrine of deafication is essential to the Polygamy doctrine, they work hand in hand, so to exalt one and decry the other is logically inconsistent. Also, being like God and a child of God is not, if in the proper context, the same as the doctrine of deafication presented in 132. By the way, the original author who wrote the song I Am A child Of God originally did not add the doctrine in that song, but only did so after pressure from the church.
These two have hurled the worst insults at fellow members, so it falls a little flat when they complain about how unthinkable it is when others criticize them.
Your comment makes me genuinely curious. Can you give examples of the horrible insults I have hurled at members?
I’m super excited for this.