Foam/No Foam Does It Matter (140)
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- Опубликовано: 3 июл 2024
- On the Piedmont Southern and the modules I have been building, I use green extruded foam insulation board on top of the plywood baseboard. Several folks have asked me why I use it, whether it is necessary, and what alternatives there might be. In this fairly short video I will try and address all those questions. So let's get started.
Хобби
Larry really enjoy your videos.
Very informative
I recall back in the day laying track on ply and than cutting holes for ponds etc. When i started this table i didn't know about the foam
In Australia Bunnings is the equivalent of home depot great videos teaching me so much about DCC convinced me to go that way.... AWESOME
Thanks Larry, another great Video, always a pleasure to watch your Presentations. Best Wishes, and keep safe.
Thanks Peter, you too.
Just wanted to say thank you! I appreciate your insight and experience.
Another supplier of cork in the UK is SPD-UK.
They supply cork commercially, but also model rail cork including trackbed strips, sheet packs and rolls of various thickness.
I glue sheets to 9mm or 12mm plywood to reduce the drumming effect. Plenty of PVA as cork is absorbent, and plenty of weights over the entire surface to hold it down and prevent it lifting as it swells a bit when it absorbs the adhesive.
I use industrial foan sheets for my road bed,it absorbs sounds and reduces weight on your layout especially if you have your layout made in modules like myself. Using MDF, particle board, Masonite etc is unnecessary as moisture can warp this material,as well as the weight and price whereas the foam insulation sheeting I get as mainly scraps are perfect for moulding landscape scenarios, etc as it's so easy to work with. I tend to use a hot knife to cut cleanly through the foam. I also use a cork track bed laid on top of the foam and glued with a non corrosive contact cement or liquid nails in some cases. I transport my layout to exhibitions every three months or so, hence the importance of cutting down weight. Cheers people and keep on modelling!!
Great video Larry and thanks for the “shout out”.
Regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie and thanks for the info on XPS foam board in the UK.
Hello Charlie. I really enjoy your videos.
I was looking in the comments for all his shout outs.
Thank you so much! I live in the UK and had no idea what name this type of board was called - XPS
I started working with foam years ago when most thought it was insane. I would get looked at like I had three heads. It’s much smoother and the best for scenery. Especially for N scale. Never need a saw, add a river or stream. So easy it’s the best. Nice light weight
I have really enjoyed kit bashing Woodland Scenics Grand Valley kit. It uses foam for everything. Even raisers for elevations. My only problem came when I wanted to mount a switch machine to an elevated turnout. Had to use plywood. Otherwise, I am very happy with their products. Their foam roadbed is also very good as well.
At one point I tried using 2” foam for an upper deck. To mount Tortoises I bolted them to squares of 1/8” hardboard and then glued that to the underside of the foam. It held up well for about the 4 years it was in use.
I'm sorry I didn't use foam on my layout so I can make some road hills and a few mountains , but I can still do it and I like that hard wheel sounds on my elevated subway... Straight wood with the road bed around my track I can hardly here the deep rumble . I have alot of roads and traffic lights . Was doing a City/suburban type but I want to do more with a staging or side tracks so, I have to eliminate some things . Love the videos. Very educational... Talk me alot , joe
I use two layers of 1 inch foam and use cork under the track on my N scale layout. The only sounds are from the noisy old locos. Enjoyed watching this and all of your videos. My layout is D.C. now, but one day I might change it over to DCC. Thanks
I hear lots of people complaining about the noise model railroads create while the trains are in operation. So they do their darndest to try to eliminate all the noise they can as they create and build their model railroad layouts. I agree that they do in most cases create a lot of amplified noise. But also as a rail fan of which has spent many hours over the years along the rail lines watching real trains, I have never once came across any trains upon any railroad of which did not create loads of noise as they were passing by, or during switching and other railyard operations. It is something of which is a necessary part of railroading operations and of which you have to put up with whether you want to or not. You can't just wave a magic wand and make that noise disappear. So, in overall essense, Why should a model railroad be any different. To me, if you try to make the noise disappear even by trying to dampen it down by using diferent methods then you remove some of that realistic realism of which you have strived so hard to achieve in everything else by hours and hours sometimes weeks and months upon in tedious labor pertaining to all the other little realistic details of which you have installed into your layout while creating and building your model railroad. I'm just making an observation, and voicing my own opinion. - But, "To each his own", as they always say. - So. "And it harm none, do as thou will".
Larry
I've had issues with Liquid Nails as it ages. It gets brittle and lets go of non-porous materials (plastics, metal, etc). I have and have seen cars where it was used to hold weight material that released. I have box cars I've bought used with loose weights and the majority had Liquid Nails that let go.
To put down my cork, I've been using acrylic latex caulk plus silicone. So far it hold swell and with a little care the cork can be pulled using a putty or painters knife to work it loose.
BTW, I enjoy your productions.
Hi,
You make good and informative videos on many aspects of model railroading. Thank you. I would like to throw in my two pennies about attaching the tracks to the roadbed. I think there is nothing wrong with nails. Just don't drive them in too tight, leave a fraction of a millimeter between the nail heads and the sleepers, so that the track can "float" a bit.
I've been using Atlas track nails and Micro Engineering spikes to fasten track down and much prefer it over adhesives. It's easier to adjust or revise.
Some great tips.
For my On42 (3' 6" at 1/48), I started with 6mm MDF base, to attach to risers from Frame sections (6' x 3' )
On top of the Base MDF, I lay 10mm Pin board ( fo'r those plastic headed notice board pins ); then a layer of 6mm Cork strips, then Ties/Sleepers, then hand-laid correct-code rails for
60 lbs/ yard Main, and 42 lbs/yard sidings ( 1920s40s period )
Width of cork and Pin board is set to give proper profile ( angle-cut to give fall of ballast ; the pin board/ baseboard allows the normal earth level card/paper sheets to meld with tracks bed. ( no digging into bluefoam)
Sidings have thinner baseboards, thinner pinboard, and 3mm Cork.
Haven't rebuild a Bachman On30 Baldwin out to On42 yet to match QGR Baldwins of 1879-80's still running in 1920s. So can't comment on sound mitigation. Spiking track needs a 20mm pin made from flat head 1,4mm diameter panel pins, with heads ground to dog spike profile..
The trials of scratchbuilding.
On42 track is 7/8" Gauge/ (22.2mm) same as S Gauge, but proportions of set track are wrong.
Anyway laying track is soothing for the mind. Switches are a bit more intense.
I know this is an older video, I just wanted to say I've used Lino type flooring under the tracks and works extremely well, the type I've been using is the more rubbery type, you buy it by the meter, I just cut it with a utility knife and scissors to the shape and glue it down face side down as the back has a really nice texture similar to ballast. The only downside is it doesn't bend well left to right so you need to cut bends out of the sheet. Once I've glued it down I spray it with acrylic paint and then I lay the track on top, looks great and is cheap.
Much lighter and easier to work with too, foam its all I use. Its not like you need something you can walk on.
thank you for detail video
thank, you for you're video.👍
Very well put, thank you very much for your Insight. I'm doing my first layout and I was wondering which directions to go.
One thing with the way I use foam board is you can always go up in elevation, by simply stacking the foam, but not very far down. So it takes some advance planning if you want to add a river or a gorge or a valley. For my river scene I suspended the plywood base using some wood blocks making it deep enough for the water and bridge.
@@TheDCCGuy thank you very much that's very helpful, yes I've seen others do that as well and I guess that would be an afterthought. I've learned a lot from many of your videos. But this one today I just felt I needed to reach out and send my thanks.
I like to use foam as it's great as a scenery base!
I love using the foam and I glue down track instead of drilling and screwing in, I used liquid nails and track doesn’t move. I use same foam. Less noise, I even cut the foam and made a small pond. My track is Kato so glue was perfect for that type of track to use liquid nails
I really really appreciate your videos. Model Railroading is a very popular hobby in the North America still, in the UK it is slowly going away. I was at a show yesterday, and many people were saying that they just do not have the space for it any more. They say they have countless boxes of track and rolling stock from older relatives, but just nowhere for it to go. because of this, so many instructions are very American specific. I always appreciate how you try and "european-ise" your instructions!
Regarding XPS / Pink panther foam, its now quite readily available in the UK.
I am surprised the hobby seems to be on the decline in the UK. There are so many new locos and wagons coming out and new companies like Accurascale and Rapido getting into production plus with all the new O and TT equipment it appears to be expanding. The opposite is true over here-magazines are fewer than ever and the number of pages in each issue keeps declining. Everything has gotten so expensive it is difficult for kids and young guys to afford the hobby. It will be interesting to see what happens if the Chinese factories that make all the train stuff shut down or switch to different products.
@@TheDCCGuy The last club i was a part of had to change location 3 times for their layout, and are now in what is basically the boiler room of a community centre.
Plenty of people enjoy locomotives on smaller spaces to run, but lack the space to do it.
Maybe that is why so many new companies are making locomotives, and as you mention, the sweeping popularity of TT:120 in the UK, likely due to size constraints!
Interesting Video Larry - Thank You. One thing you didn't mention as an alternative to foam is the sound deadening used on cars - a compressed wool felt material, which can bought in rolls (usually 400 or 500 mm wide)
Jason Wood has used it extensively on his "The Escarpment" layout in Australia and seems very satisfied with results.
Take care and keep safe
john c
Interesting, never heard of it being used for layouts.
how about a link to this material.
Hi! Here is Marcelo from Brasil. Congratulations on the makeup.
If you check the prices of plywood its through the roof. My last layout was all foam for shelf. It's a lot easy to use easy to maneuver. I also like Ken Paterson's layout
*warping intensifies*
Breaks as soon as u bump it on something
I myself never had any issues for years,using foam board for layouts. IF anything foam board, i highly recommend using the 2" thick type, as it's way sturdier. @@jamescarter6025
I run Märklin all metal trains on all metal M-track wich has a hollow bedding. Talk about sound!
When i'm downstairs while they are running above it sounds like war has started. haha
Cork on rolls is also widely used on mainland europe.
Ok what did I do wrong? I used 2" extruded foam on 3x3 lumber for front and back edge and plywood on end for 16 " cross pieces . I used caulk and liquid nails for projects and yellow carpenters glue for track and foam on wood .
I have metal wheels and I get a lot of noise. Mostly from engines. In my two small yards I used 1/2" homosode on 1/2" plywood. Much quieter . I did use nails for track. I never thought they would carry noise like that.I might go back to some part and pull them to see if it makes that much difference.
By they way I bought my 2" foam from cement co.. They use it for insulation under concrete slabs.
The green foam should serve as a good base for surrounding vegetation on the landscape...better color blending...
I use foam for the light weight without plywood base. I use modular bench work with 1 inch foam recessed even with the top edge of the 1x4 with braces under the foam. I did this to experiment light weight modules. And .awesome it easy to create ditches and streams along roads and track.
I used 2” foam for the upper deck on my last layout. I laid the foam sheets directly on wall brackets and during its ~5 year life it was pretty stable. For a home layout I might try something like this but for a portable one for shows, etc. I would be concerned about breakage and stability. It sounds like you have a pretty rigid support system for it though.
@@TheDCCGuyI m not sure if you covered this and actually off topic but I m wondering how to wire a reverse loop without creating a short circuit?
@@donaldmoore8920 Video #197
Excellent. Low on wordy waffle, high on specific information.
Track on foam is loader than on plywood. If noise reduction is what your after then homasote but it can give you issues too. Tried and true cork on plywood under track is your best of all worlds in my opinion.
I agree. I have homasote on most of my layout but also use foam in other areas. The foam does make more noise though but it is not an issue. Of course foam is much easier to work with.
I used homosote on my railroads for years. I experienced a demonstration on different roadbeds and homesite with cork roadbed came out the quietest. It can acept track nails easily.
You can get this in the UK, 6 x 2 sheets, many thicknesses from 20mm to 75mm from a firm in Birmingham.......
Thanks Paul for filling in that blank.
Just dropped in to find out about model railroads cause my Model aircraft career isnt going so well ! 😄😄
I am just viewing your older videos like this one. As I was building my layout, I came across a suggestion to use carpet pad to deaden sound. I put a 3/8" piece between the plywood and the grass mat that I was using. I think it is helping to deaden the sound, but I wonder if long term the pad will deteriorate. Maybe by the time that becomes an issue I'll be ready to redo my layout.
Having removed a lot of old carpet over the years and seen how the old padding degrades I definitely would not use it. There was an article some years ago in Model Railroad Planning evaluating different kinds of sound deadening roadbed material. They found that the rubber padding used to insulate between truck campers and truck and the side rails of the bed was the best but they didn’t have any info on long term viability. However given the intended usage it probably does hold up.
I'm glad I came across this video as it answered many questions I had. I have a 23' X 9" shelf layout I'm building in my garage. The shelves are up and next step is surface prep prior to laying track. I was concerned about foam as I figured track nails may work them selves out of the foam and create loose tracks. You mentioned Liquid Nails, which I assume is a type of glue. If so, let's say I want to remove or redesign a section of track secured with Liquid nails... how easy is it to remove the tracks afterwards if I choose? Will I end up with ripped foam or bits of material still stuck to the underside of the tracks?
Thank you.
I have in the past had to pull up a piece of track or turnout so have some experience with your questions. I have found that by carefully slipping a 1” putty knife under the ties it is possible to lift the piece of track without doing much damage. Usually only a very thin skin of the top layer remains attached to the underside of the ties. I suggest you test it yourself with a scrap of foam and track. You can find the Liquid Nails at Lowes, home depot, etc.
thanks it alot cheaper for me now i was going to use cork board
Also no expansion or contraction which is what causes track to shift and cause derailments
Larry, I'm going to lay my cork roadbed directly on the plywood, but I want to use something to attach it that will come up easily when I want to make changes so I can possibly reuse it, the same for the track (especially the track.) What is that best method to attach it so that would be possible if needed? I'm completely starting over with an N scale layout and when I tried to remove the old HO layout I had I pretty much tore up everything and destroyed most of it, including the track. Very hard to remove.....I could really use your help please! Totally love your videos, extremely informative, thank you for the time and effort you put in to make them for all model railroaders. Steve E.
Steve-one option is to use track nails. However you might try using the Liquid Nails. Although it grabs quick and holds well, you can slide a thin knife blade under the track and separate them, leaving only a very thin film on the underside of the track. If you want to ty that I suggest you glue down a scrap piece of track and then let it set up a few days before trying to remove it and see if that works for you.
Larry, thank you for your very informative videos. How do you recommend gluing the foam to the wood? Also, do you have any suggested resources for modelers who are using Digitrax with Train Controller? Thank you.
As I showed in the previous video I used Liquid Nails for Projects to glue it down. Any type of construction adhesive that is plastic compatible will work well. In have not used Train Controller software, but it should be compatible with Digitrax as with any other DCC system. It likely can take advantage of LocoNet feedback, etc. Friewald should be able to advise you about any special requirements. See if you can download the manual and see if it has any specifics.
Also use it for your fascia if you don’t build on foam to me that’s insane. Or for modules it’s truly the best.
I want to second the comment by RAPaul46 Gulfwind46
regarding Homasote. I find it to be an excellent sound deadening product, and it holds spikes or nails very well. It can be shaped to make streams and ditches. Also takes all types of glue if you glue down your track. From reading product literature I think it is very similar in density and quality to Sundeala. I have tried Celotex in the past, and it seems to be less dense than either Homasote or Sundeala. Regarding foam, I'm just not a fan, but use what works for you.
Ok, how do you make a stream or pond on homasote?
It's not very thick in the first place.
For USA use pink panther foam “pink” or a blue foam the both simple to cut and clean. Don’t use any white foam the are difficult to cut and messy.
Be aware that if you lay a sound deadening layer upon plywood and then use nails or screws through into the plywood, the sound will be transmitted to the plywood defeating the sound deadening material's purpose. Don't ask me how I know this. This is amplified 1000% with O gauge trains.
Exactly why I use Liquid Nails for Projects to attach my roadbed and track.
Thanks for the video, foam is good for as you said scenery but it is a insulating materiel
cork is a sound insulating materiel glued on plywood as well as the track is quite efficient.
I personally follow Richard Everard Junction , Charley as well and others, may I suggest that
you take a look at Tony North eastern a great modeller. Stay safe catch you on the next video.
Modéliste dans le 974 ??
@@dimitriachminov5536 Bjr, oui 97410 ST. Pierre
@@francis1247 Je suis débutant, sur Saint Denis. Difficile de se fournir dans les magasins locaux.
@@dimitriachminov5536 Cc, il n'y a pas de magasin de modélisme ferroviaire
dans l'île. Tout se fait par VPC, et malheureusement pour nous les frais d'
Envoi est élevé. J'ai plusieurs sites de VPC Français et Anglais, si tu as besoin.
Bonne journée.
A technical correction: Celotex is not a wood fiber product. It is manufactured from bagasse. This is the fiber that is left over after sugar cane is pressed to remove the sugar.
Not sure where I got that info, thanks for the correction.
That's how it started (bagasse). These days the brand is owned by Saint-Gobain and it's a trade mark for PIR-insulation boards (at least in the UK).
Great video. Does the green foam still deaden the sound after you ballast the track? The problem with cork is once you put ballast down it no longer reduces the sound, so its really only good for creating a trackbed. Personally I put the track down straight on the baseboard and pin it. That way you just have to add water to the ballast, and the track is 100% reusable. Once you glue track down with adhesive, its pretty much shot. Don't quite understand why people are obsessed with sound deadening, the sound is all part of the experience!
One issue is that even the adhesive impsrts an increase in sound after it sets up. And with ballast the glue creates its own sound board effect and as soon as it is dry you will notice an increase in sound. If the ballast and glue extends down onto the foam then you get another added dimension of sound. I feel that the foam makes it quieter than applying track directly to plywood-others may see it as an added expense not worth the cost.
Homasote on plywood deadens sound and is strong enough to walk on if necessary.
You can use either but for strength the extruded is better. The expanded stuff also tends to break off the little foam beads when being cut but it is cheaper and since Woodland Scenics makes slabs for modeling it is likely more readily available outside the US.
I am playing catch up on your channel but have a question. You recommend Liquid Nails for projects to fix the track to foam. I use painters caulk to lay my track on foam and does a great job with no failures. The reason I bring this up is changes like a turn out needs to be changed. With LN it is a lot harder with a bigger mess with the other there is a lot less mess. Price also comes into play, Stacking foam for land forms I do use LN and wood glue with great results
First, LNP is an acrylic based adhesive and is not as aggressive as some of their other formulations. You can even clean it up with water before it dries. Second I use a putty knife to spread it to a thin surface coating just as wide as the roadbed or track. That gives good adhesion without it squeezing up between the ties. Consequently if you do need to make a change to a turnout or piece of track it can be pried up with a thin knife or spatula. A stiff metal brush can then remove most of the LNP from the bottom of the ties if necessary.
@@TheDCCGuy thanks for the info... I do the same with what I use...I have not used LNP for track laying. So that is good to know I can use it also. You do have some good videos to catch up on...lot of great tips...thanks
Can roofing insulation be used for model trains? I have checked it out already the thicknesses are 2 - 3 inches and as thick as almost two feet.
I don’t see why not. I scored a major supply a few years ago when they were roofing a new big box store near me and a summer thunderstorm blew in. It blew 2” thick by 4’x8’ sheets of foam insulation all over the adjacent field and parking lot.I helped them by picking up several sheets which they couldn’t use as they had dinged edges. Now I use the 1/2” thick sheets over plywood.
Dear Sir, in this video you refer to a video about the application of the foam on your table top. However I can not seem to find that video. Can you instruct me. Thank you, Luc.
Watch videos #136 & 140.
Just subbed.
Welcome aboard-Larry
What about using Homasote on top of the plywood? Homasote is a sound reduction board and comes in various thicknesses.
I used to use it but In my neck of the woods Homasote has disappeared. Some folks have told me they can still get it in some areas. The problem with homasote as I see it is the large amount of paper dust it creates when cut. You really have to do it outside and have a leaf blower handy. I started usong foam about 20 years ago and find it much easier to work with.
I'm curious with you using foam how do you attach your tortoise and cobalt switch machines to the foam? Obviously you can't run screws in there I don't think? Just curious hope to hear back Love your videos I learned so much thank you for everything you do!
The foam is on top of 1/2” thick plywood-screws hold well in that.
Is there anything I can do to reduce noise? My layout track is already down and I have open grid benchwork, can I put anything underneath the bench work attached to the plywood?
Is it pinned or glued down? If it is pinned then pull the pins out and add a sound deadener under the track. I saw the results of some tests in MR’s Track Planning annual a few years ago which found that the rubber pads that go between the underside of truck campers and the siderails do the best job however I still use the cork roadbed. However if you have it glued down then you’re probably stuck with it. Run your trains as slow as possible to help reduce the noise and add sound decoders as the locomotive sounds will help cover it up.
I have used the Woodland Scenics 2% foam risers on top of a plywood base in one area of my layout. I plan to glue the cork roadbed on top of the foam risers. If I pin the track thru the cork roadbed it will just go into the foam below, thus there should be no sound issues. correct? Will the pins be sufficient to hold the track or should I glue the track down onto the foam?
The pins should not transmit sound to anything that will matter. However I am not sure that pins will hold in the WS foam and would give it a test first before committing to a permanent installation. Do the WS instructions for their foam scenery system say anything about using pins or glue for assembly?
@@TheDCCGuy
there was nothing on the packaging but you raise a great point. I will check out the WS website to see how they are attaching track to their system.
What type of glue do you reccomend for the hd foam board? I very much appreciate your time for your very informative vid. Marvin, Charlotte nc us
Liquid Nails for Projects which is foam compatible. The regular kind will eat the foam.
Great video however it did make me think of a couple questions. I'm getting ready to start building another model railroad soon and I'm wanting to do this one right When using foam does the thickness matter? Will 1/4 foam deaden noise as well as a 1 inch piece? Also it the past I've used the cork road bed. Is it a waste of time to use cork road bed on top foam or does that combination give you double the noise deadening effect?
According to a comparison test published a number of years ago in Model Railroad Planning found that the dense rubber material used to insulate between truck bed rails and camper bodies gave the quietest track. However I lime the cork for convenience. I suspect that the thickness of the foam board may not matter a lot although I bet 2” is better than 1/4”.
Hi Larry. Nice honing block; is it homemade or store bought? If the latter, where is it available (I don't see a brand name on it)?
It is commercial. It was given to me by a friend so I have no idea where he got it. Amazon has a wide selection many now have diamond grit bonded to the steel base.
There Are so Many combos To Build A model Railroad Layout it’s The Truth.
Larry, great video. May I ask how you combine foam and the use of electrics and power (eg line power / signals)?
Not sure what you’re asking here. Can you be more specific?
@@TheDCCGuy Larry, when installing power to the track or signals / switches, are you drilling through the foam and baseboard?
Yes, I attach the DCC power bus to the underside fi the plywood base. I showed this in the videos on building the modules.
Foam will help silent the trains as they run across the tracks
Hi Larry, is there a big difference between 1/4" to 3 /4" foam in noise reduction and what size do you use? Pete
As I have said 1/2” thick with Midwest cork roadbed over that for about 3/4” of sound deadening capacity.
Thank you.
I buy my foam at _Home Depot_ and/or _Loews._
Europe must have similar types of places.
Same here, but in the UK it seems to have been largely replaced by Celotex with foil barrier facing. Thus the need to place a special order for it, which of course makes it more expensive. Those 1/2” 4x8’ sheets I buy now cost about $14.50 at Lowes whereas a year ago I think they were half that. Covid has increased the cost of many building products here.
What about the fire risk of unprotected foam insulation - it is highly inflammable and toxic when burning?
On my layout it is protected on the bottom by a layer of 1/2” plywood and on top by plaster, paint, and scenery material. The whole house would have to burn to take it out.
To each their own and all respect to Larry. I have never used Foam and I caution people against it. But again if you like using it great, but there are people who thinking opinions are knowledge. It is not. Hope to see you Larry at Savannah RPM next year.
What thickness do you prefer for the foam and how do you cut it creating a nice, clean, 90 degree edge? Thank you.
I use 1/2” foam over 1/2” plywood. Works well for modules and generally flat terrain or you can stack foam to create hills. I used 2” foam insulation once but found it too difficult to deal with especially for mounting switch machines. For clean edges I usually try to use the factory edges and put the edges I cut towards the rear whee any irregularities will be hidden under scenery. However in most cases I put a hardboard fascia along the front edges which hides any irregularities there as well. You really don’t want exposed foam edges since they can get damaged quite easily.
Thanks so much for all of this advice!
What is the best tool to cut Foamboard?
For straight lines a box cutter works well. For cutting contours I use various serrated steak knives.
Hi Larry, I'm hoping you can give me some advise about installing a river. My plan was to put 2 inch foam sheet on top of my baseboard, which I was then going to carve out a river(s). However, if the foam covers the whole baseboard, I'm stuck as to how install the point motors (turnouts) underneath the baseboard, because I assume the throwbar would not be long...or strong...enough. Any Ideas?
You are correct in your assumption. For the Rockfish River on my layout I actually dropped the plywood baseboard down a few inches below the main level using wood blocks attached to the underside. Then I used the usual foam on top of the plywood, covered that with a thin layer of plaster, paint, etc., and poured the resin water. I showed how to do this in the October 2014 issue of Model Railroader.
Thanks v much Larry...very helpful.😊
issue i’ve came across , liquid nails mean you will not be able to use track again , it will permanently ruin the track for another use. any way around this?
I’ve had no problems lifting track and reusing it when using Liquid Nails for Projects. While it hols well you can slide a long blade from a metal spatula under it and pop the glue line and most of the glue stays behind. And any residual will come off easily with a warm water soak and some elbow grease.
I'm a recent sub and a newbie. I want to build a winter layout. Should I paint the foam or cover it with plaster or something else that's white? Thanks for the helpful vids!
Getting the right surface to mimic snow can be a challenge to do convincingly. I once did a winter photoshoot for a magazine cover and I used a commercial snow scenery product and it worked well, plus the layout owner was able to vacuum it up after xmas. Unless you plan the scene to look like the aftermath of a big blizzard you might consider applying a grass flocking beforehand and then add your snow. However if it is to be a totally snow covered winter scene I would apply some type of plaster product then add the fake snow. The problem with applying plaster is it may give you a basically flat featureless surface. I remember a story in MR from the 1980s where the fellow actually sprayed a light gray weathering to the snow to replicate the shadows and dirty look along the tracks and roads. The real problem with plaster and paint is getting the sparkle of snow, and the commercial snow can do that.
Thanks!
How do you attach the track to the foam board?
Watch video #147
i am pour some mountain and flat table in 2ft or 4 fy long by 27 inch wide using sika post fix found at hardware like 15.00 dollar a bag
Using xps insulating foam
We’re can I get that foam I wanna build a train set on a wall shelf
Lowes, Home Depot, etc.
What about Homasote? I have been using it fhere in Florida or years with absolutely NO problems. Our club here in Florida uses it in an non airconditioned environment with NO problems. It is also sound deadening.
The last time I saw Homasote was back in the 1980s. When I looked for it 7-8 years ago I couldn’t find it so went with foam. I assumed it was basically no longer available so didn’t mention it. Glad it is working for you.
I wish it was readily available in Canada. Must only be special ordered, unfortunately. Closest they have in Canada is something called "Donnal Connal" which is also unfortunate because it has a dusty base.
Homasote is hard to find. It's available at Ganahl Lumber here in Southern California. If I used adhesive to secure my track I would use foam, but I prefer to spike it and Homasote has better "grabbing" qualities than foam.
My Layouts Ho And N Scale I Have no Foam. I like it my Wife Also has No foam on her layouts as well.
I wish I could get my wife interested enough to just help out, let alone have her own layout.
Take her to Train shows And Show her what she Needs.
Does foam need support other than cross braces?
Depends on thickness. I once used the 2” stuff on shelf supports and it was OK for the couple of years before I moved and dismantled it.
Another thing about sub base is don't use masonite, OSB or sanded plywood and stick to an exterior rated plywood usually 1/2 inch or thicker with a B grade on one side and a C grade on the other.
@Ted Amrein It expands and contracts more than plywood. Bows or should I say sags easier and is very hard to drive nails in to name a few reasons.
@Ted Amrein It's not the worse choice but as the wood ages osb does strange things and you may experience some issues. In my opinion not worth the headaches for the pennies saved been my experience.
@Ted Amrein If you build another section to your layout build it on the plywood I recommend and I guarantee that long after you forget about the couple extra bucks spent you will realize why it is a better choice over OSB.
@Ted Amrein That's all I am trying to do is help others. I wouldn't tear what you built apart unless it really gives you trouble but I wouldn't continue with it either. I've seen some really nice layouts built on the wrong base and it's very frustrating when it doesn't work well and extremely hard to correct without starting over at that point.
Interesting discussion guys. My basement is heated and air conditioned plus I run a dehumidifier to keep rel humidity below 50%. The temperature stays at about 70 degrees F year round. Consequently I get no track movement due to expansion and contraction of either the wood, foam, or rails. As a test I run my passenger cars backwards through my turnouts at speed and if any derails occur I make adjustments. We each have to make informed decisions as to what is required for stability and good running characteristics in our individual environmental conditions. Hopefully it is discussions like these that provide the options.
Larry; How thick can one make sub-roadbed with foam and still be able to use switch machines like Tortoise and still allow them to be effective?
I have used Tortoises under 2” thick foam but do not recommend it. The main reason being it puts a lot more stress on the motor and internal gears and will likely lead to early failures. Consequently I now use 1/2” foam over 1/2” plywood which with the cork roadbed is a bit over 1” total.
Thank you Larry; I had started a layout a few years ago using 3/8" plywood and 1" foam over that with regular cork roadbed under the track. I did not think I got the leverage I needed from the switch machines wire. Now I am starting over, but was just curious. The railroad I model, generally runs over flat terrain, except for crossing a few creeks and one small river, so your recommendation might be good.
I built a river crossing by dropping a section of the sub-roadbed down using 2x2 spacers to hang it. That was shown in an article in the October 2014 issue of MR.
@@TheDCCGuy Thanks, I might try that..
I used paper mache and cardboard for my layout I’m building
No mention of Homasote?
See other comments.
With all the megamodelrailroads and space that some people and groups have, why doesn't someone rebuild a model of the Gorre and Daphetid?
I think more than one has been attempted, or at least based on his track plan. The original small G&D which served as the central element of the larger version was built with very tight curves and was limited to his very short wheelbase locos. The biggest issue is how close would you try to duplicate it? Although there is a lot of photo evidence from his articles and the book it really would be difficult to duplicate every aspect. In many ways I think it better to just look back with fond memories instead of trying to build an incomplete copy.
No mention of homesote (super 440)...??? This is one of the most popular so why no mention?
I haven’t been able to get it for almost 20 years, so it seems to be only regionally available and not in my region!
@@TheDCCGuy try referring to it as “super 440” and I have ordered through Home Depot but agree, can’t just go in and grab. It is however economically friendly and really easy to use you can change track plans using spike nails and what have you until you get it just “perfect”...
I read that you can walk on insulation boards. 1,440 pounds per square ft, is this true. I am 61 years old, I train platform many years ago, out of 5/8” platform wood. It’s very heavy, I cut the 4’ x 8’ in half. So it’s easier to carry. I only display it, during Christmas. But I want to make it lighter. Can I use it for my Christmas display
While they can stand quite a bit of compression, they will flex, so I would not recommend using them as a base without some sort of underlying support to prevent flexing. I built a layout once using the 2” thick blue stuff on 1’ deep shelf supports and it worked OK but for my modules and current layout I use 1/2” plywood under the 1/2” foam insulation board.
I used 2” x 4” for the middle bracket. I don’t want to make it heavy anymore. Because I have trouble carrying it upstairs, bye myself. I put artificial tree on it now. My old platform was built for a real Christmas tree , trains and house displays
Is it true that insulation board 1440 pounds per square feet
What about Homasote
When I started the Piedmont Southern I looked for it all over W NC, NW SC, E TN, SW VA and couldn’t find so assumed it is no longer readily available. Plus it is not as easy to use as foam insulation board.
Great video Larry. However I'm a fat lazy American who can't be bothered to do anything for myself. It's a lot of work to watch your other videos and read the comments. Why don't you have one video that anticipates and answers all of my questions? 😆😆 But seriously, I've really been enjoying your extensive library of knowledge. Thank you sir.
Extruded or expanded - does it matter?
But you first have to find it and I looked all over my 4 state region and couldn’t.
I can see Foam for hills or mountains.
Me too.
I’m a newbie and I’m researching how to do a permanent track on a plywood sheet. I want to be able to put my Christmas tree on it too.I have an HO scale train and EZ track. I need to know how to attach foam to wood then track to that.
That is all explained in this series of videos.
@@TheDCCGuy once I build and attach the foam how do I glue the track down? I’m planning on 2 x 8 tables then attaching them side by side for a 4 x 8. I need to do it in 2 sets so it can be carried and stored.
Different strokes Different Folks.
I prefer not foam. You end up buying something and then carving and throwing out much of it. I prefer using cardboard strips with hot glue. It's cheaper and I can actually make landforms with the strips be applying them creatively.
I cut my layout teeth using that method, so been there, done that-takes too much time. After applying the cardboard ribbing, then you have to apply paper towels soaked in plaster, then add more plaster, etc, etc. I just apply the foam, stack it to make landforms, and carve it using either a hot wire or steak knife. Finally paint on some glue and dust on the scenic materials-much faster. But whatever works for you.
@@TheDCCGuy Mine didn't go that slow and I actually made landforms as I went. I'm not talking about the old style cardboard strips where you get a hill. Actually raster scanning land forms as you go from left to right or visa versa. It costs a lot less and has some advantages. If I did use foam, I'd have to cover it with something to get rid of the tell-tale shapes of foam. There is a lot of waste and mess (shavings) with it too and the cost of buying the sheets of foam.
I disagree on the noise. My layout had a transition from plywood to 1.5 inch thick pink foam and when the train got to the foam, it was noticeably louder (with cork roadbed on both). So while it seems reasonable to think that the foam is quieter, have you ever actually heard the sound at a transition? I hate foam at this point (as a track base) and I am doing all of my expansions on 1/2 inch plywood. Foam does has some significant advantages. It is cheap, easy to cut, light weight, and you can pin track in place while the adhesive cures, or even just plan out your routes using track and pins. Plywood is messy to cut and makes splinters. If the track route is entirely flat, foam might be best for most people. However, the more elevation variation you have in your track route, the more plywood becomes advantageous. With foam, you can go up with foam slope sets, but dipping down below the elevation of the foam surface is actually pretty difficult (I know, I tried). With wood, you can go up or down equally. Also, you get smoother transitions into grade which helps for larger locomotives and cars. So while it is much more work during installation, I think you get a better track base with wood. Check out the video "Giant HO Scale Train Layout Update: Subroadbed Installation" by rcgrabbag. That layout would be very difficult to build with foam.
Modules like these are flat so as you say the foam works in this case. My Piedmont Southern is two levels of flat joined by helices. Personally if I wanted mountains, valleys, etc.I’d probably go back to L-girders. Remember there’s more than one way to skin a cat.
My experience track on foam just spells trouble over time.
Ken Patterson uses exclusively foam and has done for years. Also he seems to frequently pull his layout apart and take it outside.
commercial did it again. one cuts in the video and video never starts up again.
I just checked and the video started back up again right after the first commercial. Does this happen often to you when watching RUclips videos?
Hello, great video. What about turnouts switching rods? If foam is used they must be rather long. Didn't you have any problems with that?
Depends on how thick the foam is and the switch machine. I once used 2” foam and just used longer throw rods on my Tortoises. Now I use 1/2” plywood and 1/2” foam and still have to replace the throw rods on Tortoises but on Cobalt Digital’s it is long enough to reach. The fun part is attaching Tortoises to the bottom of a 2” thick slab of foam-never again!
@@TheDCCGuy Thanks. I am starting new layout and want to use foam. I was a bit affraid about that point.
Rule of thumb. 6 inches of Foam and your layout runs quietly. Any less and you should of went with Lionel for the noise level. 3 2 inch pieces Siliconed together.
I don't see what the problem with noise is? You're not a drummer in an apartment. ;) I use foam because of its light weight and its manipulation possibilities.
Get 5-8 trains with 15-20 cars each rolling on metal wheels pulled by 2-3 locos each all with sound and the noise can be overwhelming.
@@TheDCCGuy Oh OK. Haven't tried that yet.